DARPA Scientist: "Aliens Genetically Engineered Humans” (Ft. John Blitch)

Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to https://RocketMoney.com/jesse today. JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with Lt. Colonel John Blitch—a former Green Beret, Special Forces officer, DARPA scientist, and cognitive psychologist—who shares some of the most mind-bending revelations on non-human intelligence, military encounters, and exotic technologies. With experience spanning special operations, advanced robotics, and national security programs, Blitch offers a rare insider perspective on the hidden realities behind UFOs, government secrecy, and his own paranormal experiences. In this explosive interview, Blitch lends credibility to military whistleblowers like Jake Barber and Randy Anderson, who have exposed UFO crash retrievals, hidden underground bases, and advanced technology programs. He also shares his own chilling encounter with a mantis-like non-human entity—a life-altering event that reshaped his understanding of reality, the human soul, and the nature of life after death. From classified radar tests possibly causing pre-Roswell UFO crashes to undisclosed evidence of artificial structures on Mars and the Moon, Blitch provides a compelling case for why humanity is on the verge of a paradigm shift. -------------------------- Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join -------------------------- SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 00

  This big bug came like through the screen door on our deck and he's standing over me. His little triangle face opens up and these jaws open up and he starts tugging chunks of flesh off of me, you know, from my cheeks, my, my shoulders, and he's flinging it.

• 0:51Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 0:52Speaker 00

  And, and there's, and there's blood splashing. He wanted me to know that they could

• 0:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:00Speaker 00

  rip me to shreds if they wanted to, but they couldn't get to my soul.

• 1:04Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with my new friend, John Blitch. Lieutenant Colonel John Blitch.

• 1:08Speaker 05

  Lieutenant Colonel John Blitch. Lieutenant Colonel John Blitch.

• 1:11Jesse Michels?

  You have maybe the most interesting CV of anybody I've ever interviewed.

• 1:16Speaker 00

  There was this agreement that you don't talk about Fight Club.

• 1:19Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  Right? You don't talk about the ETs that we have all seen.

• 1:25Jesse Michels?

  That I think that the really interesting phenomena that happens after that is you have all these really tough guys who get spooked by really crazy, you know, entities that they encounter.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  A drop lands on my hand as on, on my handlebars and then I realize it's red and it's blood. There is no reason for me to have this gushing bloody nose. And, and this is, and, and things get, uh, weird. I have this fuzzy memory of a fuel truck, what I thought was a fuel truck. And so I kind of walked my bike up around it and in the cab of this fuel truck is this guy with a red plaid shirt.

• 2:13Jesse Michels?

  Who is the guy in the flannel, the red flannel?

• 2:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, I was not prepared to talk about this in previous interviews.

• 2:27Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with my new friend, John Blitch. It's an honor to have you. You have maybe the most interesting CV of anybody I've ever interviewed. You were a Delta Force. You worked at DARPA for a long time. You managed some very interesting programs there. You're a cognitive psychology expert and doctorate. Is that right?

• 2:50Speaker 00

  Well, I, you know, I'll push back a little bit on the word expert.

• 2:54Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Because one of my favorite definitions of expert was from Dr. Ruth Mauer, my first time through graduate school at the Colorado School of Mines. And she said, because I, my first thesis was I built an expert system to recommend which robot to pick to go into rubble. And she said, you know, the definition of expert? I don't know. This was, you know, in front of the whole committee. And she goes, well, X is an unknown quantity and a spurt is a drip under pressure. And so everybody cracked up. I was loving it, right? And so, you know, I don't claim to be an expert in anything.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  All I would say is that I've made a lot of mistakes and that's a good path to learning.

• 3:42Jesse Michels?

  So you, you really came on the public scene around this, you know, recent UFO whistleblower revelation. We've really crossed a Rubicon of sorts and kind of UFO alien world where you have this guy Jake, Jake Barber, who's went through kind of the combat control pipeline, you know, Air Force Special Forces, ended up being kind of sheep dipped to use like an intel military world term where he was sort of erased as a person. Like, yeah, he was director of helicopter, you know, operations or whatever for, for, you know, a specific company, generic company.

• 4:20Jesse Michels?

  But really he was retrieving UFOs and he has come out with a story via me and Ross Colthart. And he talks about retrieving an egg shaped craft and then an eight gone, you know, octagonal craft. And you've come out in support of him. And you've had some incredibly interesting experiences yourself that came out in this Ross Colthart interview. And so. Uh, do you want to talk about some of your own, you know, personal paranormal experiences?

• 4:49Speaker 00

  Sure, sure. Um, well, first of all, I want to thank you for letting me take off my academic jacket, right? I should have had like leather pads sewn on the sleeves or whatever and relaxed a little bit. Hence the shirt, right? So, so, um, you know, the interview with Ross was pretty serious, right? Because, um, I was trying to help these guys and, and sort of support them so they didn't get whacked, right? I mean, that was deadly serious stuff.

• 5:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  So now, um, in this environment with you, I'm, I'm kind of excited to let the hair down a little bit with a little hair I have and, uh, and have some fun.

• 5:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  So, yeah, so we can, we can get into some of those more, um, um, open-minded speculation, wild speculation, um, sorts of things. But, you know, there's an underpinning of science that's really important.

• 5:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Up underneath this. And so, um, I, I, I want to push back a little bit. The Air Force doesn't use special forces. That's, that's kind of an army term.

• 5:50Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  Uh, so Air Force is, they use, they, they have their ground special operators in organizations called special tactics squadrons.

• 6:00Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:01Speaker 00

  And, um, so Jake is, what I was able to verify was his track record in a pre-CT, um, training program.

• 6:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  And so that's as far as I was able to validate via his records. Uh, but that's still very impressive. And what's, what's important about that is a lot of the military, whenever you, uh, at least the way the army did it, um, before we would go to scuba school, for example, Key West, the army figured, you know, if we're sending these guys down to vacation land down there for three weeks, we're going to make them earn it. So it's going to be tough. And it was. It's, it's one of the most difficult schools I've ever been through. Cause most humans, oh, I would, I hate, I shouldn't say hate, but I, I am reluctant to, to put everything in one absolute declaration, all, right? But the vast majority of humans.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Are deathly afraid of drowning. That's why waterboarding works, right? And so, holding your breath underwater and forcing you to build up your CO2, it's not lack of oxygen. It's an excess of poison, the CO2 that builds up in your lungs. That can, that can put anybody into a frantic state, pretty much. And that organization did that, that underwater operations group down there. So, what we used to do is we would have pre scuba class. And that would kind of wash folks out. So that before, before you spend all the money to send somebody all the way down to Key West in vacation land and absorb all those resources, you want to make sure they're going to pass.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  So typically, the pre scuba, pre ranger, pre CCT is usually more difficult. And so, the fact that Jake made it through that, um, is a big feather in his cap.

• 8:00Jesse Michels?

  And you, you believe him that he was then diverted, uh, to this sort of, you know, anonymized program where he was working for specific contractors to retrieve non-human craft?

• 8:12Speaker 00

  Yes, I, I believe him. Uh, again, I, I always make this distinction about what I know versus what I believe.

• 8:18Jesse Michels?

  And you believe.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  And, oh, yeah, absolutely. And, and it's not just based on him.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  When we first met, I, I made all four of us, his full team of four. And I was looking for inconsistencies between those folks. It's kind of part of tradecraft that we're trained in, you know, to try to figure out if you're walking into an ambush. It was me against these four guys and they all could have, any one of them could have kicked my butt, never mind four of them. Don't believe the Chuck Norris movies. I love Chuck Norris, but don't believe those movies. Cause one person against two.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  Is you're having a really tough time. You gotta be superhuman to even beat those odds. For my, for my black belt test, I had to fight five other black belts at the same time. And I got my nose broken by my sensei's, uh, daughter, 18 years old. Uh, and it's, it's a very humbling experience. So trying to see all four of those folks collaborate. I was looking for the slightest little glance between eyes between each other. And never saw the slightest hint of a red flag. So collectively, they all validated each, validated each other.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  And that, if, if they fooled me, you know, certainly my ego is part of this, right? I don't want to believe that I can be fooled, just like the vast majority of people. Don't want to believe that they can be fooled by flying saucers.

• 9:49Jesse Michels?

  E- e- everybody can be fooled.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you know, for me, it's, it's a strength of belief, right? So we were talking about probabilities, really. And probabilistically, I'm gonna assign my belief in Jake and his team collectively at three sigma. Right? So one sigma's what 66.666%? Two is 96, what's 97%? So that's an A.

• 10:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  I'm talking A plus.

• 10:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  99% sure that what he told me on my boat and all of our interactions thereafter.

• 10:23Jesse Michels?

  I'm, I'm up there too on especially the prima facie story. And then the thing where I'm feel like even he would have maybe 1% plus doubt. I don't, I don't know where he's at, but like, was this egg shaped craft non-human? It's to me, it's, you know, if it's just like the UAPTF, you know, is assessing it. And then he, he's going off his own knowledge, which is clearly advanced when it comes to aviation. You know, and then it just looks very anomalous. Still like, what is that thing? I don't know. You know, they're like, what do you think?

• 10:58Speaker 00

  Well, I, you know, I think the two most important things that I took away from that interview. Now, when I did my interview with Ross.

• 11:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  I had not seen Jake's or Fred's.

• 11:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Or Don Paul's in abuse. So we were all, and I understand why Ross probably wanted to do that.

• 11:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Uh, just like you said, you want to kind of do things independently to make sure that there's no.

• 11:19Jesse Michels?

  Coordination.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  Coordination, crosstalk, right? And so I, I get that. But I was, I was deeply emotionally moved by his tears.

• 11:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 06

  I felt like I was possessed by the most

• 11:34Speaker 06

  beautiful spirit I'd ever been possessed by. And.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  When he was talking about that feeling of love coming from.

• 11:41Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Whatever the, whatever the craft it was, I don't think it was coming from the egg. He was telling that.

• 11:47Jesse Michels?

  That was the eight gone.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  The eight gone octagon shit crap. So that was extremely powerful and extremely important.

• 11:56Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  That, you know, this Independence Day, alien invasion, you know, rhetoric and narrative. We really need to squash that down. And then the second most important thing, or actually, I think that was the second most important thing. Cause the viability and so forth. And I picked up on that when we were out on my boat, you know, we originally, I was trying to convince them to come forward, help convince them. But the most important thing was his refutation. Of ontological shock. And he said, and, and I, I asked him immediately after I saw him, called him and said, hey, can I use that quote in my book? If I ever get this damn book published.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  I don't believe in ontological shock. I believe in ontological relief. And I couldn't agree with him more. That I think, you know, current society is luck.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  We are sick and tired. We have lost all faith and confidence in our government, not just our government, but the world's governments across the board. So we're, we're way ready for this, right? And so that, that was my most important takeaway from what he said. And, and, and, you know, the other aspect of that that's kind of interesting hypothetically, you know, since we're happy speculation here, right?

• 13:22Speaker 00

  You know, maybe that craft itself could have been a living being, right? You know?

• 13:27Jesse Michels?

  You hear that?

• 13:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:28Jesse Michels?

  From time to time.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  That, so the, the woo woo literature, you know, in my two libraries, my peer reviewed academic literature on one side of my basement and then my woo woo literature on the other side. Those are really starting to overlap now.

• 13:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  You know? And, and so there's plenty, plenty of data.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  And the woo woo literature that supports that these craft may be living entities.

• 13:59Jesse Michels?

  Well, let's get into that because you've had experiences since you were a kid and I want to get into those core experiences as well. But just the idea that these might be living beings, I, I find it so interesting. People are so indexed on like, was it non-human or was it human? And then what if you see, what if you get what you want and you see that high fidelity, you know, 8K video of a thing in a hangar or you step inside the thing? What does that get you? What, you have no idea what you're looking at at that point. And so to the extent you've been studying this stuff for decades, because you call yourself part of the invisible college, you know, what, um, what, what are we looking at?

• 14:40Jesse Michels?

  What's the greater ontology or worldview or like metaphysics that comes with aliens, which have to just be like the tip of the iceberg? Fellow alchemists, it's a new year and that means it's time to get organized and take control of our financial wellness. For me, Rocket Money has been an absolute game changer. It helped me uncover all sorts of. Subscriptions I totally forgot about. Like a few I had no idea I was paying for months after I stopped using the services. With Rocket Money, I canceled these in just a few clicks, saving money instantly. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

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• 16:07Jesse Michels?

  Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com/jesse today. That's rocketmoney.com/jesse.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, and it is a big iceberg, right? Because all we see is the very tip, right? So it's, it's a small portion, but ontologically speaking, based on not just the peer-reviewed stuff and the woo-woo, but the intersections between those. My belief is that we are a

• 16:46Speaker 00

  an up-and-coming species in a galactic society

• 16:52Speaker 00

  teeming with life. And it's, it's, it's simply a numbers game, right? So Webb Telescope when I was growing up, and you look at all those little dots and I'm fascinated. And the little dots are, you think they're stars, you're told they're stars. So those, oh, those must be solar systems. And then as we go from Hubble to Webb, and we realize.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Whoa, wait a minute. Those aren't solar systems, those are galaxies. So a galaxy with billions of solar systems in them. And then the dust that you see in the background. Those are galaxies.

• 17:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Right? And so it's just mind blowing.

• 17:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 17:35Speaker 00

  The magnitude of that, right? And so the likelihood that, and then when you take the age of all this, our, what, four billion?

• 17:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Years here, right? And, and you extrapolate from that? It's, it is a ridiculous notion that we are alone.

• 17:58Jesse Michels?

  I, so I agree with that. And you have the Drake equation, the Fermi paradox, all these things mathematically pointing to, you know, it being Occam's razor that we're not alone. You know, the, the, the, the most likely answer is that we're not alone. And simultaneous to that, how do we know that our cosmological models are right at all? Because we're probably, our physical models of the universe are always wrong at any given time. They've just always been wrong historically, so they're probably wrong now. And I think about like a rocket that's two degrees off course and then it ends it up, it ends up 99 degree, you know, it's like air propagation. Ends up like way off course because it's two degrees off course and then that multiplies down the line.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  It's not linear.

• 18:41Jesse Michels?

  So like, what, what if that's true with our models of physics? Where our understanding of, you know, the microscopic might be way off. Like we, we can bear, we can't figure out quantum gravity, for example. There are like issues with our understanding of the physical universe on like a really small scale. So given those issues, wouldn't you end up with a scaling problem in physics itself? Where our cosmological models end up like this crazy kind of glued together patchwork quilt?

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 19:10Jesse Michels?

  And we're probably so off on like even, you know, a lot of that stuff. And yes, you can see some of it, obviously with James Webb and Hubble and that sort of thing, but. I mean, who knows? Like, you have this idea of an observer-dependent universe, like the Wheeler thing, or, you know, delayed choice stuff. And if any of that, if that, or like these, you know, the anthropic principle, you know, the idea that like, you know, maybe physics and the universe itself is comported to our perceptual filters, you know, then like, what do we know at all about anything? Like, it's just like extremely, you know, complicated. Like, maybe, I don't know. What do you think?

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Well, so, uh, let me back up to the Fermi paradox, which I claim is absolute BS. I love the guy, I respect the science.

• 20:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  But it is based on a very flawed assumption, which is, okay, if there's really is this cosmic galactic society, where are they? Right? Why aren't they landing on the White House lawn? Well, the underlying assumption with all of that is that they want to reveal themselves from a special forces parachute behind enemy lines and study a society and then pick them, choose them, and then train them to rise up against their own tyrannical government? We don't want to be found. And so my overlay of my bias is sometimes they want to be found,

• 20:45Speaker 00

  sometimes they don't, just like we did. Sometimes we want to be seen blowing up a bridge to show that that country cannot defend its own people, right? Or maybe we stay behind and we get some of their own folks to do it. So it's part of this influence.

• 21:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's also, you know, you have like the three-body problem, this great Chinese sci-fi trilogy. And in that, you have the dark forest analogy and this idea that it's actually adaptive often for aliens to hide themselves or to infiltrate and to do, you know, sort of deceptive scheming and not to just like land on the White House lawn.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:26Jesse Michels?

  And especially if you're dealing with this like sort of, you know, unevolved, like if humans are like not where we need to be and you present yourself and you're seen as this kind of foreign invader or whatever, like that's not going to go well, right? So you'd rather just like incept them with ideas, kind of subtly manipulate them or whatever, but go about your business. And it's actually adaptive from a Survivalistic standpoint to just not, not even show yourself.

• 21:50Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Well, and you can totally invalidate, if you're a behavioral scientist, right? You can totally invalidate all of your experimental results, trash your own experiment by revealing yourself. Right? And so we have this notion of informed consent. We were talking about this last night about the, the,

• 22:12Speaker 00

  maybe there's a galactic IRB, Institutional Review Board, that, that.

• 22:18Jesse Michels?

  That's really fascinating. So it's almost like, yeah, you can't bias the experiment. So you can't show yourself. That's, that's so interesting. Do you think that we are, humans are an experiment? Some sort of genetic experiment?

• 22:31Speaker 00

  Um, my belief is that absolutely. Absolutely. From, from what occurred with me.

• 22:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  And again, a lot of the, um, experiencer, uh, literature.

• 22:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  Is strongly suggestive of that. And a lot of us, I don't want to speak for all experiencers, all abductees. Abductees are a subgroup of experiencers. There are plenty of people that have interactions.

• 22:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Right? That are positive and, and kumbaya.

• 23:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  And good for you.

• 23:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  There are others of us that have been terrified, right? And feel like lab rats. However, in retrospect, you know, I was young and, and combative.

• 23:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  Uh, and angry.

• 23:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  I have a whole chapter about the angry young man where I talk about, you know, breaking hockey sticks and baseball bats in my backyard because I was so upset.

• 23:29Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Because I was, I, I was paralyzed and violated and raped, right? And all those aspects of it.

• 23:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  And so I can't deny that maybe that was a motivation to become a fighter.

• 23:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  And end up in the line of work that I ended up in, in the foster rescue, right?

• 23:49Jesse Michels?

  It is this extremely common trope in abduction.

• 23:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:52Jesse Michels?

  Experiences where they say, you know, uh, gametes are collected often in some unceremonious ways. So, you know, sperm and eggs and there's, it's often sexual in nature.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 24:05Jesse Michels?

  And genetic material or tissue is sometimes collected and so that, and that's just super common. In fact, even going back to Betty and Barney Hill, one of the kind of proverbial famous cases in the US, I think 1961 in New Hampshire. Barney Hill afterwards very reluctantly admitted that sperm was basically extracted from him. And, you know, it's, it's this, uh, it's this probably hard thing to, to, to process. You look at the, the, the free Edgar Mitchell studies on abduction. So, you know, some of these larger databases, like a very high percentage involved this sort of, you know, tissue sampling, gamete collection. So.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 24:42Jesse Michels?

  It almost points to us being, yeah, some sort of experiment, genetic experiment.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. So, so personally, I don't have any recollection of anything sexual with any of my.

• 24:52Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 24:53Speaker 00

  Experiences, but that doesn't limit me from being compassionate towards other people who have.

• 24:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  Um.

• 25:00Jesse Michels?

  So when you say raped, you just mean your space was totally violated and?

• 25:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, a violation of, well, any manipulation of your body without your consent.

• 25:09Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Right? Arguably that's of that, of that nature. Uh, so, so, uh, there are a lot of folks that feel that way.

• 25:19Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Uh, but for me, in, in my experience, the most, the terrifying one, it was, I, I consider it a gift because it woke me up to the notion that, you know, this body is just a soul housing mechanism.

• 25:35Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Right? It's a biological.

• 25:37Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Um, craft or vessel.

• 25:41Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Right? With which you learn, right? And if you make some really stupid mistakes like I did and almost lost my, my leg, um.

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Then it's it's a mechanism to learn through.

• 25:54Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Right? And so this is so it it was very much a gift, but as a youngster.

• 26:00Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  A combative commando where I was all about, you know, violence for justifiably for good reasons. Right? I'm gonna we're gonna break in and rescue these folks, right? And if we have to take another human life, then so be it. That's a necessary evil for the for the, as Spock would say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Right? So the the few bad folks, if we gotta whack them to to get the good folks out. That's that's the way my mind works. So I believe that they had to penetrate my resistance on a same level. So they had to use violence to come after me, to wake me up.

• 26:44Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  To to that whole notion. So overall, the experience is an enormously positive one.

• 26:51Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  But when you're young, you don't realize that.

• 26:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  Right? It's kind of like as a parent, you gotta watch your kid fail.

• 26:58Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:58Speaker 00

  You know, like they're gonna they're gonna touch that hot stove.

• 27:01Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  You've told him a hundred times.

• 27:03Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:04Speaker 00

  All right, let her do it. See what happens. Ah, okay, sweetie, I told you, right? And that's just part of the part of the process sometimes. So so that's the way I felt about it.

• 27:15Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. So John, you had your own alien experience?

• 27:21Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, yeah, I think. And and I can put that into the knowledge side versus the belief side. So I talked about, you know, how I don't remember being born. So all I can do is believe that I was born in Idaho Falls um in nineteen fifty nine. Because I don't have a memory of that, right? But I do remember walking all those punishment hours at West Point, right? So I know that I got in a lot of trouble at at Whoops, uh, which is my favorite ding ding for that place because it's something I said almost every day.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  You know, my plea here, right? Oops, screwed up again, right? And so so uh, the two.

• 28:13Speaker 00

  Memories that I cannot dismiss as dreams, or sleep paralysis, and we can get into that, the science behind that, are a missing time mountain bike ride, and a terror-filled night, after which I woke up with bruises. And so, the mountain bike ride essentially was at least five hours of missing time, if not more. And so I'd gone for a ride on my mountain bike, and I, on the way back, it was a, it was a, it wasn't a very physically demanding ride.

• 28:57Speaker 00

  It was in 1995, it was right after the Oklahoma City bombing, and I was in this mode of, you know, riding up into nature and meditating to try to kind of come to grips with some of the traumatic stuff I saw there, you know. A young lady had to get her leg amputated just to get her out of the rubble, a lot of other stuff. I tell a story about when I first came into the Murrah Building through the back, which was still intact, there was a parking garage back there, and I came upon this wheelbarrow, and, right as I was, you know, I'd already signed in, I was, I was allowed to volunteer since I had TSSCI clearances,

• 29:42Speaker 00

  and because it was a crime scene, you know, they were really keeping all the volunteers away, unless you had a secret clearance, because it was a crime scene, right? And so they trusted that, so, anyway. So I was all excited and ready to start helping out, and so I walked up to this wheelbarrow, and I heard this, this voice from behind me from the entrance, you know, scream, "Stop!" And so I'd frozen my trash, right as I was about to grab it, and, uh, because I thought the wheelbarrow must be being used to get rid of the debris, and somebody had just filled it up and hadn't gotten over it. And then, um, I realized that, uh, you know, there was a, there was a stench,

• 30:27Speaker 00

  and it took a little bit to get through my mask, and it was, it was a smell of rotting flesh, it was horrible. And then, I happened to glance up, and there was this... Beautiful purple chiffon material that I it took me a few seconds to realize that that was a human body and that was she had been blown up into the rebar steel reinforced concrete and the reason the wheelbarrow was there was to collect her entree. So there were there was a lot of human tissue and a pool of blood and so that's why the boys

• 31:09Speaker 00

  didn't want me to move that. So that stuck with me over the years. Whoa. Yeah, so when I got back, so I was dealing with stuff like that. And so I took this mountain by ground, pretty stand for me on a on a weekend, right? Go get a workout, meditate up on top of this beautiful park called Daniel's Park, still there, very built up now since then, over geez, 30 years now. Where's Daniel's Park? Uh, Daniel's Park is south, uh, let me see, southwest, uh, south southwest of Denver. So it's a it was a sort of a little yuppie neighborhood that we had bought a house in.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  So it was very remote at that time. Now, but now it's it's its own city. But at that time, it was just this old ranch. So happened to be co-located with a ancient Indian burial ground. And so I have a bit of Native American blood in me. My great grandfather took a Sioux wife when he was traveling west as part of, I don't know if it was the gold rush or what. So very always very respectful of Native American cultures. Not to mention, I saw Jeremiah Johnson and what happened to the folks when they violated that Indian burial ground didn't

• 32:34Speaker 00

  go well, right? Maybe we could talk about that in this notion of, you know, advanced cultures meeting less advanced cultures and usually doesn't go good for the the less advanced ones, right? Yep. Anyway, so I had ridden by it several times and just noted it, not a big deal. But this time, for some reason, and I I still, to this day, I don't understand why.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  I turned around and suddenly felt an obsession that I had to go in. So I, I grabbed my mountain bike and I climbed up over this fence, got on the other side. And I, I climbed into the saddle and I was gonna ride down. I was like, nope. That's not respectful. You don't ride a bike in a cemetery. Matter of fact, you'll get fined. You'll get thrown out of any national cemetery. You try to ride a bike in Arlington. Good luck on that. You will do some time in the slammer, literally, because it's just so disrespectful. All the better ones, whatever. So I started walking and then I felt a drip on my nose.

• 33:41Speaker 00

  And again, scientifically with Occam's razor trying to slice through anything, eat them now. But I wasn't, I wasn't sweating. Why? It wasn't hot. I was coming downhill. If anything, I was a little bit, you know, cooled. So why am I sweating? And it, and it, a drop lands on my hand as I'm on my handlebars. And then I realized it's red and it's blood. I'm like, oh crap, I got a bloody nose. But it wasn't just like a drip every few seconds. It suddenly became a gusher. I'm like, what the hell is this? I mean, I didn't fall off my bike. We'd been living here for a year.

• 34:25Speaker 00

  And so it wasn't like I'm suddenly dry. I'm thinking of all these mechanisms, right? And so there, there are a lot of experiencers and abductees who do this to ourselves. We try to scientifically dismiss it. Randall Nickerson, one of John Mack's patients. And I talked about this at length, that we, we don't want to believe. So we try to categorize ourselves some other way. So I'm trying to convince myself. I hadn't fallen off my bike. There was no reason for me to have this gushing bloody nose. But I laid down and I was out immediately. Like it didn't take more than a second to me be unconscious.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  And I woke up freezing, I woke up shivering, which is common, you know, the, the front range of Colorado was pretty desert-like. And so after the sunset, it, you know, it wasn't, it, it might've been, I don't know, 60 degrees or whatever, but without moving, you know, um, and it, and I, I felt like I had bonked somehow, you know, that, that I had reached a level of exhaustion, which didn't make sense for a half hour, 45 minute bike ride. It didn't make any sense at all. So I end up, uh,

• 35:51Speaker 00

  in this, continuing in this anomalous behavior. So as a behavioral scientist, I know what is normal for most folks and I certainly know what's normal for me. And it's, it didn't make any sense that I would haul that bike up to this mesa where this bright light was shining, a bunch of bright lights.

• 36:14Speaker 05

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• 36:44Speaker 00

  And in my mind, I felt, since I was attending the Colorado School of Mines, that it must've been a drilling rig, right? And, and it, it didn't occur to me why, they must've gotten some permit to drill in this Indian burial ground. I can't imagine how they did that, but let's go check it out. Excuse me. So I was a moth to the flame and I dragged that mountain bike through all this scrub oak, scratching me and I get up on top there.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  And, and this is, and, and things get...

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Uh, weird. It's already kinda weird, but now it's really weird. Because I have this fuzzy memory of a fuel truck, what I thought was a fuel truck. And so I kinda daintily kinda walk my bike up around it and I look up into the cab of the fuel truck. At about, I don't know, 20 degree angle, maybe or whatever. And then the cab of this fuel truck is this guy with a red plaid shirt.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  And

• 37:57Speaker 00

  at that point, I become very anxious and afraid. And I turn around and I walk my bike back around the back of that fuel truck. And I sense that there's a clearing over in front of the fuel truck with a bunch of other lights or whatever. So I'm imagining, you know, some sort of drilling operation. You know, maybe there's two or three vehicles over there with the big, you know, drill or whatever. But I don't have any, I don't have any crisp memory of that, which is just weird. Um, and so I'm going back through the scrub brush. I know that there's kind of a clearing.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  And there appears to be a road over there. But rather than walking my bike over to the road, I keep walking it through the scrub brush. It makes no sense, but I'm growing, I'm, I'm very af- afraid of those lights and that area over there. So I skirt around. As soon as I get to an open enough segment of the road that I can ju- I jump on that bike. And I am pedaling to save my life and I am just terrified, screaming as fast as I can go. I go down this hill and I see a, a, uh, a light on at a, at a ranch house. And I'm thinking to myself, okay.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  I'd left whatever that was back behind me. Now I start thinking, uh, I need to call Cindy, my wife. And let her know, cause I mean, it's, it's not like a half hour after sunset. It is several hours after sunset. And so I'm just gonna stop in on this ranch house and ask them to use the phone. You know, this is 1995, there's no cell phones, right? So I'm, I go down this, you know, it's kind of a long dirt, um, driveway. And I stopped about halfway down because I realized there's no lights on. I'm thinking, you know, at worst, I might interrupt them in the middle of dinner. No lights on. So then I realize, oh, wow, it must be really late.

• 40:11Speaker 00

  And so I stop, I turn around and I go, uh, I go back out to the main dirt road and I, and I pretty much coast most of the way back to this hardball, this highway called, uh, highway 85, right? It's a four lane highway. And, uh, very little traffic, which is another surprise. I mean, if it's, if it's just after dark, why isn't there any traffic? I mean, there might've been one car every five minutes or so. And so finally I'm starting to feel safe because I'm on this pavement. And, and there's people around and I'm like, okay, all right. So, and then it, that's when I, I hit the wall.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  It was, it was a full out bonk, kind of like heartbreak hill in the Boston marathon. And you're like, I, I just ran into a wall. So I could barely stay on my bike. So I'm cranking, you know, one, two, three, I set up a rhythm. And I've climbed a shallow hill and I take a turn and I see this 711. So I stopped the 711. And I'm exhausted and super dehydrated. So I, I go in, I get off my bike, I see a, a police car, police cruiser in front. And as I'm walking past the police cruiser, windows are down, it's still fairly warm. Um.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  I thought I heard my name as I walked by, but I didn't stop. You know, tradecraft kicks in and I just, I, I, I'm slow for a little bit and I just opened the door and go in. And I get these three thirty-two ounce Gatorade, orange Gatorade jugs. And I, I downed one of them before I even got to the cash register. And threw a twenty on the, on the counter and walked out.

• 41:56Jesse Michels?

  How old are you at this point?

• 41:58Speaker 00

  Uh, let me see. So this was ninety-five. So I was born in fifty-nine. So what's that? Thirty?

• 42:03Jesse Michels?

  Thirty-six?

• 42:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, ish. Yeah. Uh, so this, and I'm in pretty good shape.

• 42:11Jesse Michels?

  And are you in special forces at this time?

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Uh, no, I had just given, I've just finished, uh, seven years in special forces. Five command tours over, spread over seven years. The first of that was as a Persian two missile guy. And then the final four were in, were in special ops.

• 42:28Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  Uh, so I felt like I was in pretty good shape.

• 42:31Jesse Michels?

  So you get your Gatorade?

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Get my Gatorade. Uh, well, the, the other, the other one I just put in the, the trash as I was walking out. Cop gets out of the car, comes up, says, are you Mr. Blitch? And I said, uh, yes, sir, I am. And I'm, and I was about to ask him, am I in, am I in trouble, whatever? He goes, okay, well, I just want to let you know, your wife called in a missing persons report. And so if it's okay with you, I'm going to radio in that, that we have found you. And, uh, you know, would you like a ride home? Now the ego says, hell no, you never accept a ride from anybody. I'm going to carry my own rucksack all the way home, blah, blah, blah. But what I really said was, hell yeah, I'd love a ride home. And I was flipping exhausted.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  So I threw it back and, and I go home. And that was that conscious memory. I don't even remember going in the house and climbing into bed.

• 43:32Speaker 00

  I don't remember anything. But I do remember a dream that I thought was a dream around that same time. But it it wasn't. It was an anomalous dream. You know, I've come to realize uh those the differences between crisp memories, right? And these fuzzy memories. And so then I had this memory, this dream that I thought had occurred like weeks later, or at least several days later.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Where this this big bug came like through the screen door on our on our deck. This is a a deck that's three stories up above the the backyard. And there's no stairs. So it's only you can only get to it through the screen door off of the master bedroom. And just walks right up through that and he's standing over me. And he's he's conveying to me telepathically.

• 44:41Jesse Michels?

  What does the bug look like?

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Uh, big grasshopper, big praying mantis thing, big eyes and kind of a triangle head.

• 44:48Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Um, and so, but I wasn't I wasn't afraid.

• 44:54Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  It it was.

• 44:55Jesse Michels?

  Similar to like Close Encounters of the Third Kind mantis?

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Uh, I don't I don't remember any mantis and.

• 45:04Jesse Michels?

  I thought there was a bit, maybe there's a Mandela effect or something, but anyway, he kicked out.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  Maybe so. All I all I remember is the little gray guys and maybe a tall, skinny guy.

• 45:12Jesse Michels?

  I thought there was a tall, tall mantis in the back, yeah.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  I don't remember any mantis in that, but um, but he uh was chastising me. And he was he was sort of lecturing me in sort of a a condescending um instructional way, commanding me to stop wiggling around.

• 45:37Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  Uh, and he and he's telling me, look. Your, this body that you've got, it's, it's nothing but a soul container. And we can't do anything to hurt that, or steal it, or damage it. We can do a lot of damage to your body if we want to. We don't want to. We're trying to help you. So quit squirming around and we're, we're gonna do some tune-ups here. We're gonna work on it a little bit.

• 46:12Jesse Michels?

  What do you think the tune-ups were? How were they trying to help you?

• 46:15Speaker 00

  I, I don't know. He just, and I never got that level of detail. All I got was, don't be afraid. There's nothing to be afraid of. We're trying to help you. And as an example of how bad it can get, he opens his, his little triangle face, opens up and these jaws open up and he starts tugging chunks of flesh off of me. You know, from my cheeks, my, my shoulders, and he's flinging it. And there's blood spatter and everything and it's, and it should have been absolutely terrifying.

• 46:53Jesse Michels?

  Were you bleeding and?

• 46:54Speaker 00

  I, I felt the tug on my face.

• 46:57Jesse Michels?

  But she's ripping skin off your face.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I felt the tug.

• 47:01Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 47:01Speaker 00

  And, and there's, and there's blood splashing. And, uh, and the whole time, he's like, see, this is what we could do to you easily. But we're not doing that.

• 47:15Jesse Michels?

  Afterwards, were you bloody due to that?

• 47:17Speaker 00

  No, never any indication of, of anything. This is like mental imagery that I'm receiving.

• 47:24Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 47:24Speaker 00

  Um.

• 47:26Jesse Michels?

  So this doesn't feel like a physical?

• 47:28Speaker 00

  No, it did feel like it. It, it, it felt like he wanted me to feel.

• 47:32Jesse Michels?

  He wanted to simulate that you could, okay.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  He wanted, he wanted, he wanted me to know that they could

• 47:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  rip me to shreds if they wanted to. But they couldn't get to my soul. And even if, even if I died in that process, I'm gonna come back. There's, there's a soul that's gonna come back and who knows? I might come back as one of them. And, and come at them. So that was all that, in a, in a very intense moment, that lesson. That. Just quit squirming around and let us get this frickin' done. Okay? And then boom, I was out. That was it. So that was, um, what made that uh so powerful scientifically is

• 48:23Speaker 00

  sleep paralysis doesn't last for five hours.

• 48:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  And sleep paralysis doesn't result in my wife getting in her soccer mom van and taking my two daughters and traveling up and down that ridgeline for hours looking for me.

• 48:43Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 48:44Speaker 00

  Right? And so we can get into more sleep paralysis a little bit. So there was, you know.

• 48:50Jesse Michels?

  Did you have any after effects physically? Did you have any, any, any marks, any, any implants? What is up alchemists? If you're interested in joining group calls with me and accessing exclusive, never before seen episodes of American alchemy, like my walk and talk with Danny Sheehan on who exactly killed JFK? Or a remote viewing debate between Hal Putoff and Eric Weinstein? Then please join our WAP community today. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing on our new WAP. I also hosted a discussion between the infamous Jack Sarpotti and former American alchemist, Science Bob McGuire. Head over to WAP.com slash Jesse Michaels, Michaels with no A, to become a member today.

• 49:33Jesse Michels?

  That's WAP.com slash J E S S E M I C H E L S. Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of today's episode.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Not that I know of, but here's a really interesting aspect to this phenomenon.

• 49:44Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:45Speaker 00

  Is that pretty much across the, the vast majority of cases that I'd read about,

• 49:55Speaker 00

  there is a, there's a common factor that I like to coin, or I like to capture in the term irrational ambivalence. And what happens to a lot of experiencers is they have these anomalous.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  Events that occur and that are independently corroborated by a next door neighbor, your family, your loved ones, your teammates. And they're like, don't you remember this or that? Don't you remember that you walked back into the foxhole? Don't you remember that we were looking for you? Don't you remember the cop? And there's, there's often a like, yeah, but so what? And so it's, it's an irrational response to something that should be at the forefront of all of your behavior. You should be looking into that.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  I should have been checking for my cheeks or whatever. Nothing. I did tell my wife about that dream. And she was like, yeah, okay. And it was this ambivalence, this, this laissez faire attitude towards it all. So it's almost as if in a hypnotic suggestion, you're told, in many cases, we are told, don't worry about this, don't, you won't need to remember this. And I think it's an act of compassion so that we can lead relatively normal lives after we are let out of the cage, right? The lab rats get released into the backyard, right? And go live your life.

• 51:37Jesse Michels?

  That's what, yeah, Mario Woods stationed at Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota. He had an experience where he was abducted. He's a mutual friend. He's, I know you guys are friends as well. And he said that the, the beings came up to them. They kept saying, do not fear, do not fear. That was like this recurring kind of trope.

• 51:55Speaker 07

  The words do not fear? Travel through my body like a vibration, like a, like a hiss. But I kept hearing over and over, do not fear, do not fear, uh, do not fear.

• 52:11Jesse Michels?

  That's, wow. Do you have a sense? Cause he says he was, he became interested in things after that experience that he wasn't prior. And he realizes he's like, I know this sounds kind of weird, but he's like, I got very interested in pyramids. Is there something like that for you where you became newly interested in certain topics? Uh, did you have a mission that you didn't prior?

• 52:35Speaker 00

  I I didn't become interested in pyramids, uh, not right away. Uh, but I did.

• 52:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  Change my behavior. That in a way that was reported to me by my wife and my daughters, which was. I suddenly. Wouldn't. Squash a bug or use a fly swatter.

• 52:58Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  I would, I would go to the kitchen, grab a glass, tell my daughters, don't squish them. I would escort these bugs out of the house.

• 53:11Jesse Michels?

  Specifically, all animals or bugs?

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Uh, uh, pretty much all animals. Um.

• 53:18Jesse Michels?

  Because I was gonna say, if it was the bug thing, then it might have been the mantis specifically that you felt an affinity for.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 53:24Jesse Michels?

  But it was like dogs too, you felt like more loving towards or or was it bugs?

• 53:29Speaker 00

  That's a, that's a good question, and I don't, my, my, my first wife passed away in 2014.

• 53:36Jesse Michels?

  I'm sorry.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  Um. A wonderful and angelic soul.

• 53:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  And I, sometimes I, I wonder if my current wife is her reincarnated.

• 53:45Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  Uh, or if there was some, because they're so similar, wonderful, absolutely wonderful people. Um, and so I, I, I should ask my daughters that, if my attitude towards our Labrador Retriever. Um, changed at all. I don't, I don't, I don't have a conscious memory of anything changing. But I do remember the bug behavior, the insect behavior, which is really interesting.

• 54:10Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 54:10Speaker 00

  And up to that point. I mean, I thought like the vast majority of, of humanity or our society in the mid nineties. All aliens were the little gray guys.

• 54:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  All aliens looked just like Steven Spielberg represented in Close Encounters.

• 54:28Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 54:28Speaker 00

  Right?

• 54:29Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  And, and so I was totally unprepared for anything looking like a bug. And so that reinforced my perspective at the time that it was just a dream.

• 54:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  So, um, so that was one. What I call an irrefutable case that I cannot scientifically dismiss as a dream. Because a dream doesn't result in your wife searching for you for hours and calling the cops.

• 54:58Jesse Michels?

  No. Who is the guy in the flannel, the red flannel?

• 55:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, I was not prepared to talk about this in previous interviews, but since we're, we're in speculation world here.

• 55:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 55:14Speaker 00

  And I can let my guard down a little bit. Uh, and I thank you for that. I thank you for this environment to be able to do that. Um, so I, I do want to talk about a little bit of the science behind this, if it's okay.

• 55:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  So, uh, after I told that story on a previous interview and I, I've, I've been coached and cautioned many times, look, don't look at the social media. Don't look at any of the responses to this. Don't go, go back and look at it. And so for, for the longest time I didn't, but I, I did, you know, um, take a peek and, and probably the most vicious trolls that were coming after me was like, this claim, this guy claims to be a psychologist and he doesn't even know what sleep paralysis is.

• 56:12Speaker 00

  So for all you trolls out there, um, I love you and I'm going to push back in a loving manner as if we were on opposite football teams. Okay. Um, yes, I know a lot about sleep paralysis as part of my training. Sleep paralysis lasts a few seconds, maybe a few minutes. It does not last for five hours.

• 56:43Jesse Michels?

  No, you, something would be very wrong if it lasted for five hours.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  It, it does not.

• 56:49Jesse Michels?

  In fact, it feels longer than it is. I think the felt sense of it is like that it's half hour, an hour, but it's really splits its seconds often.

• 57:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. There's, there's a lot of time distortion in human memory.

• 57:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 57:04Speaker 00

  And that's, that's also, um,

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Correlated with risk. And, um, so if you, if you do one of these adventure rides, like a roller coaster, or you get dropped, uh, it seems like time slows down, but that makes sense evolutionarily. Right? Because you want to know all the details. When you're fighting that saber-toothed tiger, you need to know every single detail. Because if next time, you're gonna, you're gonna have a chance at fending them off, uh, maybe, maybe you should slow it down.

• 57:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 00

  And recognize all that. So it makes a lot, a lot of sense evolutionarily. So, so sleep paralysis does not explain five hours of absence. It doesn't explain Travis Walton coming back five days later with a full beard. It doesn't explain bruises, right? It doesn't explain Terry Lovelace's cellphone health data that shows he climbed six stories in less than a minute in a house that has one story.

• 58:18Speaker 00

  There's no stairs in this house. So, so I thank you for your opinion, but sleep paralysis is BS. It does not apply to the vast majority of abduction phenomena.

• 58:33Jesse Michels?

  So John, he was the guy in the red flannel.

• 58:36Speaker 00

  So now that we talked about the science and Occam's razor slicing through sleep paralysis, I did have a hypnotic regression session. So from science of-

• 58:51Jesse Michels?

  How much of what you just recalled was from that hypnotic regression person? Okay. So you remember all, that's all in waking, living memory?

• 58:58Speaker 00

  Conscious memory.

• 58:59Jesse Michels?

  Okay, cool.

• 58:59Speaker 00

  Right?

• 58:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 59:00Speaker 00

  And so I want to, uh, invoke, uh, real scientists, John Mack, Don Donderry, um, David Spiegel, senior and junior, who, who came up with this, the Spiegel eye roll test to determine how hypnotizable folks are. That's a rough measure and then you go into more detailed measures. Um- And Andrew Huberman, I mean, you can talk to a lot of folks about the science behind hypnosis.

• 59:31Jesse Michels?

  Well, you gave me a really interesting fact last night. You said there are two guys on death row right now in Texas, in the state of Texas. And they were convicted due to hypnotic regression, retrieving details under hypnosis, and that is considered super valid by the state.

• 59:53Speaker 00

  It's it's across many copies. The vast majority of our legal system is at the county level. Um, and we're compiling a study right now to determine what percentage of counties across the entire US allow hypnotic regression evidence to be admissible in court. Uh, and so I, I don't want to, to, to mislead you into thinking that that was the only bit of evidence that convicted those folks and put them on death row. But it was some of the evidence that's in there. And so the way Andrew Huberman describes hypnosis is it's a it's a, it's a period of relaxed focus, which those sound counterintuitive, right?

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  Uh, but it is definitely in verifiable by EEG and a variety of neuro crisp, objective, empirical, neurophysiological measures. You know, when you're in that, that role. And so, so what it does is it allows the, the hippocampus to stitch back together. I was, I was giving the analogy yesterday about the the RAM, you know, random access memory being stored out on the hard drive. And so that's what the hippocampus does, those two little horns in the, in the

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  down near the brain stem basal ganglia area of your brain up underneath, and then the cortex up here. So I used to use my fist as my model for, for my cadets. And I would have them stroke the back of their parietal area and the motor control and do punches and all the rest of this, but the, the hippocampal regions are deep inside, right? And so that's where a lot of your memory starts to consolidate and get, and migrates from that random access area out to the cortical structures. And so what you can do with hypnosis is when you, when you save that Word document or you save that Excel spreadsheet. Um, in a, and I, and just, this is the best model I've got and it's prob, there's probably some holes in it, but it's, it's the best we got, your system.

• 1:02:00Speaker 00

  So when you save that Word document, it doesn't get saved in contiguous sectors on that hard drive. They're spread all over the place because you, you just gotta spread it to where it's open, right? If you deleted a file, blah, blah, blah. So they're spread all over the place. And so if the hippocampus gets damaged or interfered with, and it is a very vulnerable suborgan of the brain to pharmacological chemical interdiction, right? And so if that hippocampus region gets tampered with, you can start to disrupt its recall. So it's got to go out to this file allocation table, the FAT, and X FAT, a file allocation table, when you're formatting your hard drive, that's what that means.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  So when it's going to this file allocation table, kind of like the table of contents, says, I want to go to chapter three, section one, there's nothing there. Oh, crap. Well, let me see, I've, I've got a chapter two, section five. Oh, we got that. So put little bits and pieces back together. And so what, what hypnosis is really good for is if you have a memory already and it's problematic and you, and you, you're not sure that some of the details are fuzzy, it can sharpen those details. The rape victim can, through hypnosis and relaxing you and suppressing all of the anxiety

• 1:03:30Speaker 00

  and the fear and the anger and, and all of those deep emotional interference, um, that'll obfuscate the, the collection of this and interfere with stitching those memories back together. And if, if all you want to do is focus on that license plate, boom.

• 1:03:49Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  And you can't. And so, so that license plate number isn't going to convict that person all by itself, but it can end up being the critical piece of information that places that person at that crime scene during that sort of activity. And so that's that context. So all of that to come back to the red plaid shirt.

• 1:04:15Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

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• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  Um, it was a uniform.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  It was a red uniform being worn by a bug.

• 1:04:59Jesse Michels?

  Also mantis?

• 1:05:02Jesse Michels?

  Another mantis? Or the same one?

• 1:05:06Speaker 00

  I'm not sure. I now believe...

• 1:05:10Jesse Michels?

  Well, probably a different one.

• 1:05:11Speaker 00

  No, I now believe that that was the same one. And that this dream, this separate dream, did not happen a few days later. It was all in that same...

• 1:05:24Jesse Michels?

  But in the second encounter with the mantis, did it presumably removed its uniform? Or was it also in a red uniform?

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  No, I think he had that uniform on, but it was only... It was...

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  And this is where it sounds weird, I know. But, uh, I'm, you know, with all the risk that all these other guys had taken, you know?

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  I'd feel a need to climb out on a limb myself.

• 1:05:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  And share this info. I mean, it's an important aspect of it. So, the uniform was primarily on the backside,

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

  kind of covering the grasshopper wings, you know? The front, it needed its hands to do whatever it's got to do to my body and its jaws or whatever. And so, there was like a collar to it, and there was red on the back.

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  And that's, that's, you know, we, we talk a lot about screen memories, right? And, and how these can be imposed. And this is, this is the downside to, uh, hypnosis is if somebody is very hypnotizable. Yes, you can, you can cause them to confabulate and, and make connections between, between things that might not necessarily be there. But the fact of the matter is that all hypnosis, Leo, uh, Leo Sprinkle told me this on my first regression session. He wasn't the one that, that did this with this mantis thing. All hypnosis is self-hypnosis. You cannot hypnotize somebody that doesn't want to be hypnotized.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  And that's well established in all the scientific literature. What you can do is get somebody to relax enough, to focus enough, uh, in, in recall. And so, uh, so, so I now believe that that, that event was all the same event. And so, um, that this tall being standing over me might've happened right there at that fuel truck. Uh, and I don't have any further details about the fuel truck or about the lights or anything else. But that red shirt was this collared uniform on this thing.

• 1:07:52Jesse Michels?

  Wow. Incredible. It's so fascinating. I mean, there's so many questions, I think. I hope the audience mulls this over and thinks about it. And I, I will as well because it's such an interesting. It was that the only alien abduction experience you've had or?

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  Uh, the other one was, uh, much later, 20 years later, uh, ish, 2013. And it was when I woke up with the three bruises on the underside of my, um, bicep and the one bruise on my tricep. And what I didn't tell Ross about that, as I, I intimated, I, I, I, um, sort of indicated that there were some other sort of mysterious, uh, circumstances with, with that effort.

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  And, and so I'll, I'll share that with you, that details and this was, uh, this was no hypnosis involved. This is conscious memory that I have right now. I've never gone back on a regression to remember any of that. Uh, but I do remember standing out in my, on my deck in my house. So I had this really cool house looking down onto, uh, Fort Collins. Hmm. Anyway, my next door neighbor was a, um, his name was Andy, great guy, uh, two sons, fabulous family, and I had about a half acre lot between my house and his house.

• 1:09:19Speaker 00

  And he wanted to buy it from me because he, he didn't want somebody, he didn't want me to chop it up and sell it to somebody else, put a house between us and ruin his view of the gorgeous Rocky Mountains. I totally get that. I didn't want somebody to do that either. Um, so he was going to turn it into a mountain bike, um, course for his sons or whatever. And I remember standing on my deck and looking up.

• 1:09:46Speaker 00

  And there was a, it looked like a miniature hurricane. It was a very dark cloud with, uh, a swirl around it. And a dark hole in the middle, kind of a, kind of a, like the eye of the storm.

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  And I remember him yelling over to me, are, are you, because we're both looking up and he, he looks over me and he goes, are you seeing what I'm seeing? I go, yeah, that, right? So I'd point up, he goes, yeah. And it looks like, it looks like the eye of it is right over the spot between our two houses. And then, uh, so I looked off in the distance towards, uh, Loveland, which is a, um, another city south of Fort Collins. And it blew sky down there. So that was only maybe, I don't know, I should go back and look at a map, maybe five or 10 miles, something like that. And then I look back to the north and there's blue sky over there, about the same distance around. So it looked like maybe, I don't know,

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  a diameter of a 20 mile-ish storm stayed over our houses. And again, here we go again, right? Irrational ambivalence.

• 1:10:55Speaker 00

  Huh. We both go back inside, right? Instead of me going over to chat with him like we did all the time. About mountain biking, about he's, he's a, uh, he was a former army guy who's in the, um, uh, the honor company there that used to do all the funerals for, at Arlington National Cemetery. Great dude. And, and so it would have made all the sense in the world for us to just sit there, have a, maybe have another beer and talk about it, right? At least until it started raining. Nothing. We both went back inside instead of doing the, the neighborly chat type of thing that we've done hundreds of times. And, um, I remember later on, fairly soon thereafter,

• 1:11:41Speaker 00

  going into this sort of OCD behavior that is very common in the literature. So if, if you read any of, of Kathy Martin's books, uh, Yvonne Smith, uh, all the John Mack stuff, right? A lot of these, these folks that have, have spent their lives researching the abduction phenomenon, find this very, very common. Um, that I, I had to close all the drapes and not just have them closed. I had to, sometimes I would tape it. I would tape the drapes. How wack is that, right? I couldn't afford to have the slightest little sliver of a gap because I didn't want those big,

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  black, you know, almond communion eyes from Whitley Strieber's book, staring at me through that window. And I would check them and recheck them. And I would block all the doors, et cetera. Um, I didn't find out until much later when my dad passed away, that, uh, he would, he would go check all his guns. He would, he would make sure his big old forty-four Magnum was loaded, right? All this type of stuff. It's a, it's an inherent thing. And then so, um, I remember I resolved myself. I knew they were coming. It's this feeling you get chilled down your spine. And I'm like, you know what? I know I'm helpless and this is part of the terror, right?

• 1:13:10Speaker 00

  I'm helpless. I know there's nothing I can do. So screw it. I'm just gonna go to bed, you guys. Just get it over with and let's and and let me get back to my life. Right? Next morning, I wake up. I'm in my skivvies. I go straight downstairs. Uh, I had shut down my my rescue robotics team, my second nonprofit, laid everybody off because of my my female. That's another long crazy story. But um, I I went and got this this video camera that I hadn't used in five years and fish it out, put a battery in it, and I come upstairs and I immediately started videotaping my arm, the inside of my arm because of those three bruises. I, why would I even know they were there?

• 1:13:55Speaker 00

  That's a weird thing. And why is it only on one arm, not the other arm? And why did I immediately go? Tape it, right? And it's almost as if I knew that I had had this post hypnotic suggestion and I wanted to to take the picture before. Um,

• 1:14:17Speaker 00

  before I forgot. Hmm. Right? It's like I'm trying to outsmart them, get ahead of them. Right?

• 1:14:22Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  It's the weirdest thing.

• 1:14:24Jesse Michels?

  What what did they? What was the core experience? Like, what did they do to you in this case?

• 1:14:28Speaker 00

  I don't remember.

• 1:14:29Jesse Michels?

  Oh, so you don't remember that?

• 1:14:30Speaker 00

  I I don't remember any of the core experience.

• 1:14:32Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:14:33Speaker 00

  Um, I I do have some other very um, terrifying experiences as a kid, you know, waking up with the little gray guys in my room, just like Gary Nolan said. Now, he has assured me he has no abduction memories at all. And I and I do not want to speak for for him. I just want to thank him for um, be for.

• 1:14:59Jesse Michels?

  But he does say that he remembers grays in his room and he is, I think he was riding his bike. It was like a paper route situation or something. He saw a saucer fly overhead and. So you you had experience like that as a kid as well?

• 1:15:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:15:13Jesse Michels?

  Do you do you think that because you grew up right next to a nuclear reactor in Idaho?

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  Well, I was born next to a nuclear reactor, but I grew up in

• 1:15:20Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:15:21Speaker 00

  Peabody, Peabody, that's the way you say it.

• 1:15:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:24Speaker 00

  Uh, only Matt Damon and Ben Affleck can do it, pull off a good Boston accent like that. Or maybe Bill Burr, right?

• 1:15:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:30Speaker 00

  Uh, Peabody, right? And then it's right next to Salem.

• 1:15:33Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:15:34Speaker 00

  So, uh, that's where I grew up and I did, my, my dad and my mom were both professors. Uh, my mom taught sociology at Northeastern. My dad was an aerospace physicist and a nuke. Uh, and he was teaching at MIT.

• 1:15:50Jesse Michels?

  What did he, what was he doing? Oh, he was an aerospace physicist. That's so interesting.

• 1:15:54Speaker 00

  He worked at Draper Labs, uh, and then he was, uh, I think, I, I didn't know anything about academia at the time.

• 1:16:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:01Speaker 00

  But I think he was an adjunct professor. He had three master's degrees.

• 1:16:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:05Speaker 00

  So that was enough credentials to teach at MIT. I don't think, I don't think anybody can teach at MIT now without a PhD.

• 1:16:11Jesse Michels?

  Did he have any interest in UFOs?

• 1:16:13Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:15Jesse Michels?

  What years were he teaching at, was he teaching at MIT?

• 1:16:17Speaker 00

  Uh, pretty much my whole childhood, so, so sixties, seventies. Sixties. Until I went off to West Point in seventy seven.

• 1:16:25Jesse Michels?

  So do you, do you attribute any of these experiences to the fact that your father was an aerospace physicist with an interest in UFOs? You were born next to which nuclear power plant and?

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  Uh, it wasn't a power plant. It was the first, uh, nuclear test reactor that the army had spun up. Uh, and was all classified at the time and that was in, uh, the early sixties, late fifties.

• 1:16:49Jesse Michels?

  In Idaho, where in Idaho?

• 1:16:50Speaker 00

  Falls, Idaho.

• 1:16:51Jesse Michels?

  Idaho Falls?

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:51Jesse Michels?

  So, okay, so you have the father who's interested in UFOs with serious bona fides. You have, you know, born next to a nuclear reactor. And then you also have, uh, some Native American heritage. Do you think any of those things played a part in your experiences?

• 1:17:07Speaker 00

  And, and to, to bolster the skeptics

• 1:17:14Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:15Speaker 00

  out there, uh, Betty and Barney Hill. And so I read about that at the same time.

• 1:17:19Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  And so, yes, I used all of that to totally dismiss all of my childhood experiences from a scientific skeptical standpoint.

• 1:17:32Speaker 00

  I dismissed all of my childhood.

• 1:17:34Jesse Michels?

  Even though your father took this stuff seriously?

• 1:17:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:37Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:17:38Speaker 00

  I just blew it off.

• 1:17:40Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:17:40Speaker 00

  Until 2018.

• 1:17:43Jesse Michels?

  And why 2018? Did you start to take it serious because of Leslie Kane and the New York Times article saying that we had official programs or?

• 1:17:51Speaker 00

  2018 for me was a very, very, there's a sort of a threshold year. Because Leslie's article with Lou came out in the summer of 2017. And this was, I started teaching my next semester of 2018. And I was expecting the entire Air Force Academy to all of a sudden radically change its curriculum and start talking about the billions and billions and trillions of galaxies and start warming up the cadet populace to this notion. I mean, if anybody is gonna wake up to the, to the notion of

• 1:18:37Speaker 00

  potential visitation by extraterrestrials, it should be the United States Air Force Academy, right? To my, I shouldn't say horror, but to my surprise and, and deep disappointment.

• 1:18:52Jesse Michels?

  Why is that a greater source of conviction for you? Like an article in the New York Times versus your own experiences, which are?

• 1:19:00Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:19:01Jesse Michels?

  And then did you, would you argue with your dad? Cause if your dad was so kind of pro UFOs, this aerospace physicist, would you say, hey dad, I don't believe in any of this stuff, even though you had had your own experiences?

• 1:19:14Speaker 00

  Uh, I was on the skeptical side until the mountain bike incident. That was 1995.

• 1:19:21Jesse Michels?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:19:22Speaker 00

  And after that point, we kind of flipped.

• 1:19:25Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:19:25Speaker 00

  And I was like. I started re-reading, I read the, uh, Corso's

• 1:19:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  Day After Roswell.

• 1:19:33Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:19:34Speaker 00

  And I really started digging in.

• 1:19:36Jesse Michels?

  That was a little after, that was ninety seven.

• 1:19:38Speaker 00

  That was ninety seven.

• 1:19:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  Um, but I, you know, I had to focus on grad school.

• 1:19:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:42Speaker 00

  You have to maintain a laser focus to get through that.

• 1:19:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Speaker 00

  So, um, but, but that sort of woke me up to start re-lookin' into this stuff, right? I mean, I used to read UFO books. During all my boring time in the military, right? Everybody else is, you know, reading Playboy and Penthouse, I'm reading UFO books.

• 1:20:01Jesse Michels?

  So you were interested in it?

• 1:20:02Speaker 00

  I was interested in it, but I didn't internalize it to me.

• 1:20:06Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:20:07Speaker 00

  Until after ninety five.

• 1:20:08Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:20:09Speaker 00

  Until after that.

• 1:20:10Jesse Michels?

  And it was like those experiences existed in some liminal state? Or were you actively repressing them as if they hadn't happened? And then they sort of resurfaced in ninety five or?

• 1:20:21Speaker 00

  I, I don't know.

• 1:20:22Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:20:22Speaker 00

  What I do know is I bought a lot of UFO books.

• 1:20:25Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. So you, on some level, you, you bought it?

• 1:20:28Speaker 00

  I didn't, I didn't internalize it. I didn't, I didn't relate it to myself.

• 1:20:32Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:20:33Speaker 00

  Um, and I didn't even consciously discuss

• 1:20:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:38Speaker 00

  that mountain bike incident.

• 1:20:40Jesse Michels?

  Did your dad have any experiences?

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  Uh.

• 1:20:44Jesse Michels?

  Cause it's funny, you know, I just interviewed Jacob Barber and he said, you know, probably as a result of his work with crash retrievals and UFOs, he has this sort of winged sphere thing show up at his house?

• 1:20:57Speaker 06

  We have stuff show up over our house. We have, um, a UAP we call the angel that shows up and it looks like it has oar wings. It's blue and it comes in, materializes, hangs out over the house. It's seen by neighbors, it's seen by everybody and then it's gone. It shoots into outer space.

• 1:21:15Speaker 00

  I, I talked to Jake's son about this when we were at his house and, and, uh, and there's a lot of commonality. But I don't, I don't want to speak for him at all, but I, but I do recall having a lot of similarities with my childhood with his, which is really interesting. Um, but back to my dad, all I know is he had a lot of UFO books. And I got the impression

• 1:21:35Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:36Speaker 00

  that he didn't want to discuss it with me until I was old enough. And then by that time, I had my own career, blah, blah, blah. And so.

• 1:21:45Jesse Michels?

  Did he ever discuss it with you?

• 1:21:47Speaker 00

  Uh, oh yeah.

• 1:21:48Jesse Michels?

  What'd he say?

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, he would always maintain this.

• 1:21:56Speaker 00

  Um, strict, rigid, rubric of scientific parsimony.

• 1:22:04Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:05Speaker 00

  Right? And so he would, he would in an open, open minded way intent entertain possibilities. But then he would have these discussions about, I'd be talking about probabilities, right? What's, what's this and so forth? And so I, I think it was his way of dealing with the fear by trying to rationalize everything. And just always conclude, not sure.

• 1:22:33Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:33Speaker 00

  Don't know, right? But leave it as a possibility. I'll, you know, worship the, the Carl Sagan, you know, perspective of the world that, um, what's, what's the, the cliche now is that, um, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

• 1:22:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:53Speaker 00

  So 2018, I got the extraordinary proof.

• 1:22:57Jesse Michels?

  I don't think a New York Times article is extraordinary proof.

• 1:22:59Speaker 00

  I haven't gotten to that yet.

• 1:23:01Jesse Michels?

  I think your experience is.

• 1:23:02Speaker 00

  I haven't gotten to it yet.

• 1:23:02Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:23:04Speaker 00

  The New York Times article is 2017.

• 1:23:06Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:23:07Speaker 00

  In 2018.

• 1:23:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:09Speaker 00

  I attended a conference where, um,

• 1:23:15Speaker 00

  a guy got up to the podium and he announced himself as, um, a former Air Force sergeant.

• 1:23:25Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:23:26Speaker 00

  At Whiteman Air Force Base, who was a PRP qualified medic. PRP is the Personnel Reliability Program. It's the, it's the HR

• 1:23:40Speaker 00

  effort program to make sure you don't have crazy people controlling nukes, right? Uh, and, and here's this guy and he starts telling the story about this camping trip that he and his other buddy, another sergeant or Airman First Class or whatever, took his camping trip. And how, uh, he was, uh,

• 1:24:08Speaker 00

  Injured as a result of this experience where the bottom of his feet were burnt, sunburned.

• 1:24:19Speaker 00

  And so I don't want to, I don't want to tell story, Terry's story.

• 1:24:22Jesse Michels?

  It's Terry Lovelace.

• 1:24:23Speaker 00

  Terry Lovelace, yeah. And he and I have become very good friends since then.

• 1:24:29Speaker 00

  But what really,

• 1:24:32Speaker 00

  what really got my attention was when he told the story about being on a table and Dr. Bug comes over and start, and he's screaming as loud as he can. And Dr. Bug looks over at him and says, stop screaming. You know, we're not going to hurt you. We've told you, we're not going to hurt you. Quit screwing around and, and stop your screaming, but just let us get this done. And he reaches over with a digit, whatever it was, I don't know if it was a claw or what, taps him on the head. And Terry says he was out like a light. And all of a sudden I'm in the, I had already moved up from the back row, right? Somebody had left.

• 1:25:17Speaker 00

  And I took their seat and I was on the front left and looking right at him. I'm maybe from here to the wall away. And I'm, I'm starting to get the goosebumps, right? And the shivers running up and down my spine. And then when he tells this, the Dr. Bug part of the story, I'm, I'm freaking out. I'm, I, you know, I'm, I'm really tense. I'm sweating, you know? And I get the hair standing up on my, my arms. And so that's when all the, the mountain bike stuff came flooding back.

• 1:25:54Speaker 00

  And it was shortly after that, I would say within a few months after that, when I went through the regression and realized that the bug dream and the mountain bike dream were not two separate events. And the red plaid shirt. Was a uniform.

• 1:26:14Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there's some sort of MIT connection with this topic? There's a MIT president named Carl Compton and there's a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who's this sort of famous, you know, microwave frequency physicist, who clearly had something to do with the UFO question. He's on record talking to UFO researcher William Steinman, but also speaking to Wilbert Smith, this, you know, Canadian physicist, who had a UFO research program called Project Magnet. And Robert Sarbacher's name just keeps popping up. It pops up with Thomas Townsend Brown and anti-gravity experiments in the 40s, 50s and 60s. And Sarbacher says that there was a craft being held at Wright-Patterson,

• 1:26:58Jesse Michels?

  and that craft was taken over by the Anderson Trust. And so there's guys like John Anderson, John Lovett, kind of early CIA guys. And then Carl Compton comes to the scene, president of MIT, and all of a sudden, he's, you know, in charge or has to do with this somehow. And so I do wonder if MIT has some sort of connection with this whole thing. And if this sort of runs in families, as it's rumored. Whitley Strieber obviously wrote Communion, you know, maybe the archetypal alien abduction case, if not, you know, Betty and Barney Hill. But he, you know, talks about his uncle working with, very closely with General Axon at Wright Airfield. And his father was a reservist, you know, an Air Force guy. And, you know, so I don't know.

• 1:27:42Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there's something there with you? Or?

• 1:27:48Speaker 00

  I don't know, is my succinct answer. But since we're in speculation space here, I have nothing in my experience that is inconsistent with that.

• 1:28:05Speaker 00

  There is no flags in any of all the literature that I've read about all that that is inconsistent. So it's sort of like with Jake and his team. I don't see any inconsistencies there. There's, there's, as I was mentioning to you yesterday, there's a lot of smoke, but no flame.

• 1:28:30Speaker 00

  That I personally observed at DARPA or the AFRO experience when I was assigned at Wright-Patterson for three years.

• 1:28:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, you worked there. We gotta talk about that.

• 1:28:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Because your, your, your career is so fascinating because I know you've never seen a UFO firsthand or been read into anything, but you were stationed at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and you were Vice President at SAIC, which always comes up with the UFO stuff.

• 1:28:59Speaker 00

  For only six months.

• 1:29:00Jesse Michels?

  Only six months. Yeah, fair enough. But it is, I find that interesting. It's almost like you were hovering in and around the topic. You're always around the perimeter of this stuff, but like, you never get let in.

• 1:29:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. I was a bridesmaid, never a bride, right? That was kind of, kind of the way it has, it has evolved and I'm.

• 1:29:22Jesse Michels?

  Would you hear rumors at Wright-Patt? Like people, because like, yeah, any, any anecdotes that might give you some conviction that something is going on there outside of the stuff in the lore, like, you know, you have Barry Goldwater, you know, saying that he asked Curtis LeMay for, you know, what, what was being held in the Blue Room at Wright-Patterson?

• 1:29:43Speaker 05

  I called Curtis LeMay and I said, General, I know we have a room at Wright-Patterson where you put all his secret stuff. Could I go in there? I've never heard him get mad, but he got mad as hell at me, cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question again.

• 1:30:07Jesse Michels?

  Do you have any stories like that?

• 1:30:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm very aware, well, excuse me, I'm very well aware of that story and a lot of the rumors around Wright-Patterson, Leonard Stringfield, a very prominent, very well-respected UFO researcher from that, that region. I do have, yeah, some anomalous.

• 1:30:37Speaker 00

  Factors and some anomalous sort of behavior, but the but the closest to what you're just talking about with LeMan Goldwater was a um a situation where I I had, you know, I've had a lot of orthopedic procedures, I'm busted up, humpty, you know, and it doesn't speak well to my athletic prowess that I've had so many problems, right?

• 1:31:04Jesse Michels?

  You look good to me, man. For your age, I'm super impressed. You're in good shape, man.

• 1:31:09Speaker 00

  So um, I I really needed to, I didn't want to go to a doctor on base. I was I was dating, matter of fact, she became my fiance, um, lived about fifty miles away, just over fifty miles away. And the radius of TRICARE military insurance coverage was such that if you if you lived, if you lived outside of a thirty-five mile radius, I think it was thirty-five, it might have been a little further, maybe fifty, um, you you had to go to the military hospital

• 1:31:54Speaker 00

  on that base. Otherwise, TRICARE wouldn't pay for your care. And so I switched my address to her address. So I found a doctor just outside that radius. And everything was great. And so I report into him, I didn't report, is, you know, the new patient processing, got to go in and they list all your stuff. And I listed like my twenty surgeries and they're like, oh, well, that's that's interesting. And I was like, I told him the same thing. Yeah, it's just a reflection of my lack of athletic ability. And that's how I ended up with all this stuff busted. So then the doctor comes in, he's looking through everything. He says, oh, uh, and he realized right away what I was doing. He goes, so you're just

• 1:32:39Speaker 00

  outside the radius, right? I was like, yeah. He goes, yeah, I get a lot of you guys. I get a lot of guys from right back who come to see me, um, because I don't want to go to the base on uh, or the hospital on base. And he goes, let me ask you something. Um, had they let you see the alien bodies yet?

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• 1:33:28Speaker 00

  And I kinda wasn't ready for that. But I smiled, kinda like I think I'm smiling now. And I was like, no, I don't, I haven't gotten right in on that or whatever. And then he, and then he just, he was looking at me very seriously. And then he goes, oh, I'm just kidding, right? And then we get to talking and he goes, you know, I asked everybody to kinda lighten up the mood, right? He goes, but do you mind if I tell you a story? I was like, yeah, sure, sure. I mean, you're the doc, right? You don't have a scalpel held to my neck, so, yeah, give it a go. He goes, well, there was a two-star gemmel that came in here

• 1:34:13Speaker 00

  about six months ago, and I did that same thing. And he got furious with me. He stood up and he came over to me and got like this far in my grill, in my face. And he said, "Don't you ever ask me anything like that ever again. I came here to get treated, not traumatized by somebody like you. Now, are you gonna treat me for this stuff or not?" And he just, he just ripped into him. And it immediately reminded me, when he was telling me that story, of this story between Lemay and Gollum. And I was like, wow.

• 1:34:53Jesse Michels?

  Like he wouldn't have reacted so strongly if there wasn't something there.

• 1:34:56Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:34:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:57Speaker 00

  And so...

• 1:34:58Jesse Michels?

  Did you hear anything around the base or, you know, anybody talking around?

• 1:35:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:03Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:35:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  But what was somewhat anomalous

• 1:35:08Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:35:09Speaker 00

  Is that shortly after I got there, I found out that I had been sort of demoted. It was kind of, it was kind of crazy. So when I was, when I was at DARPA, I was a lieutenant colonel, retired as a lieutenant colonel, ended up coming back as a GS-15 to go to Afghanistan to use little robots to go try to find Bin Laden in the caves in Tora Bora.

• 1:35:38Jesse Michels?

  Were you literally doing that?

• 1:35:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:41Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. That's a really interesting story.

• 1:35:43Speaker 00

  I, I gotta tell you, this is the first time I've ever talked about that in public.

• 1:35:50Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:35:50Speaker 00

  And the reason is that a tremendously heroic um, god of aviation

• 1:36:01Speaker 00

  told that story, made a reference to that story about three months ago.

• 1:36:08Jesse Michels?

  Who's that?

• 1:36:09Speaker 00

  On the Sean Ryan Show, his name is Alan Mack, a legend

• 1:36:14Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:36:14Speaker 00

  In the Night Stalker Task Force 160 community. And in the middle of his interview, Tim Gallaudet asked me if I had, had met Alan, if I knew him. And I said, no. And he said, and I think, I don't know if he sent me the link or just told me that he had just done an interview with Sean. And so I watched the interview with, with wrapped attention and it was magnificent. I mean, the guy, I just can't speak well enough with a guy. And he had, he, he had a rough time with, with his wife um, and his divorce similar, similar to mine. He had a lot tougher than mine. But in any case,

• 1:36:56Speaker 00

  I'm kind of listening. I think I went up to, to go to kitchen and make a sandwich or something. And then I hear him talk about how, um, right after he had inserted, he and his guys had inserted all the, the detachments from fifth group.

• 1:37:14Speaker 00

  That is now a legendary, the Horse Soldiers. There's a book written about it, a movie written about it with, with, um, um, what's his name, Four? Uh,

• 1:37:24Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:37:25Speaker 00

  Uh, not Liam, the, the other guy. Who's Chris Hemsworth?

• 1:37:29Jesse Michels?

  Chris Hemsworth.

• 1:37:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so he was this ODA commander, a special forces A-team commander. And then they made the movie, the movie made it look like it was one detachment. Well, you gotta multiply that by like thirty-six. Cause there were, there were a bunch of Chris Hemsworth all over the Torabora region. And so Al was in his, uh, uh, several helicopters. I don't know how many, maybe five, six. I'm not sure. They were the guys that put those guys in. And so after they got done with that mission, they were told that they were gonna rotate back to Fort Campbell, Kentucky. So they'd been in country for several months, right? And so they're looking forward to going home.

• 1:38:13Speaker 00

  And then he got this cockamamie mission to lower a robot down into a cave.

• 1:38:18Jesse Michels?

  That was one of your robots?

• 1:38:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. I was, I was the only guy with robots in the country at the time. It had to be me.

• 1:38:24Jesse Michels?

  They were lowering the robots into a cave and what were, did you have a hand in the mission itself?

• 1:38:30Speaker 00

  I was the mission.

• 1:38:30Jesse Michels?

  You were the mission?

• 1:38:31Speaker 00

  I was, I had a by-name request.

• 1:38:33Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:38:34Speaker 00

  From my former boss, uh, Jomo Brown, a magnificent warrior and soldier.

• 1:38:39Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:38:40Speaker 00

  So that's why DARPA called me back out of retirement to go do this mission.

• 1:38:47Jesse Michels?

  Were you in Torabora for the mission or you were remotely controlling it?

• 1:38:51Speaker 00

  I was in, uh, Afghanistan. We were doing workups. We were doing rehearsals for it at Bagram Airfield. Um, with a couple of, uh, Green Berets from fifth group that will remain unnamed and they, it was our little cell and they were going to use the robot there to research, re-service those tunnels and those caves. Rather than taking a twelve-man detachment and, and land them and have to look in each cave. And there were significant distances between, and you got serious terrain that you gotta go through. So rather than doing that, the idea was we lower the robot, looks in the cave real quick.

• 1:39:36Speaker 00

  Either determines somebody's there or somebody's not. And here's the problem. That a lot of those tunnels, it was just a shallow cave. It was like maybe half as deep as this room. And so it looked like it was a tunnel. You didn't know until you got on the ground and looked in. And so shadows can play tricks on you and everything. And then the concern was a bunch of booby traps, right? And so the value of my little robots, that's what I was brought into DARPA to look at is to use little robots to sneak into places that might have WMD, right? And so it made all the sense in the world, especially in the middle of winter with a bunch of snow, right? And, and that the weight distribution

• 1:40:19Speaker 00

  of, of a little miniature tank with these fat treads.

• 1:40:22Jesse Michels?

  What year was this?

• 1:40:23Speaker 00

  This was 2001. Well, I got the mission in 2001. We didn't actually get over there until very early 2002, January, February.

• 1:40:31Jesse Michels?

  And did, because for a while we had pretty good confidence that Bin Laden was in Tora Bora, right? And then he sort of got away. Like what, what happened there? Because he ended up, we found him in Waziristan or Pakistan or whatever.

• 1:40:44Speaker 00

  So we're already in the rabbit hole. Now we're going into a deeper rabbit hole within the rabbit hole.

• 1:40:48Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 1:40:49Speaker 00

  Have you ever heard of the, the book, um, Kill Bin Laden by a guy named Dalton Fury?

• 1:40:56Jesse Michels?

  I have not.

• 1:40:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. So if you, if you look at that, um, we could talk about that afterwards, but that was, um, written by one of my colleagues, a fellow true commander, not a squadron commander. We were, we were kind of like lower middle management, right?

• 1:41:12Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:41:13Speaker 00

  Um, and he had that mission and he asked on three separate occasions. He went on 60 Minutes in disguise to tell Scott Pelley that he had direct overwatch on Bin Laden on three separate occasions, very close, easily within small arms range. And he asked for clearance to take out the target and it was denied three times.

• 1:41:44Jesse Michels?

  That's really weird. That's crazy.

• 1:41:48Jesse Michels?

  That's so fucked. That's it's it's like you had you just had an incentive to nation build in Afghanistan, then go into Iraq and waste all this time and money, but get Halbert in a contract or something. It's so ridiculous.

• 1:42:04Speaker 00

  That's the fact.

• 1:42:05Jesse Michels?

  I gotta read this book. I want to talk to this guy.

• 1:42:07Speaker 00

  And and and I'm sure it's on YouTube. I mean, I've watched it on YouTube several times. Uh, he has since passed away.

• 1:42:14Jesse Michels?

  Dalton Fury.

• 1:42:15Speaker 00

  Throat cancer. Um, yep. And and just a great guy.

• 1:42:19Jesse Michels?

  Oh, man.

• 1:42:20Speaker 00

  Uh, very, you know, again, one of these heroes that that, um, I had the pleasure of serving in the same unit, not at the same time. I never met him, never shook hands. He came in probably a couple, few years after I left.

• 1:42:34Jesse Michels?

  They just let him go three times, Bin Laden.

• 1:42:37Speaker 00

  That's what, that's what, um, Griffin said, that's what, that's what that.

• 1:42:43Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy. Well, that's what I mean, there were rumors that we were closing in on Bin Laden at Tora Bora. And then all of a sudden he gets away. And then you hear stuff like that. The ISI kind of knew, you know, that, um, Pakistani intelligence knew that Bin Laden was in Waziristan the whole time. And I mean, you just look at like the way in which Bin Laden was found. And you're like, how wasn't this guy found prior with the amount of resources we six trillion dollars that we spent in Middle East activities post, you know, to the, uh, uh, uh, September 11th, 2001. How do we not find this one guy? It's just crazy. And you have like, you know, the total information awareness

• 1:43:26Jesse Michels?

  stuff, and you have, you can network and you, there are ways to find people. You can't, can't find this one guy like, and then, and then when you do find him, he's like, watching DVDs in this weird outhouse. And he's got like, it's like, give me a break. Like, it's crazy.

• 1:43:42Speaker 00

  Uh, but, but the impact on me at that time in February was, um,

• 1:43:51Speaker 00

  We were, we were spinning up, we were rehearsing my mission, our mission, to send these two guys with this robot and attack another heroic guy. I will tell you his name, his name is Nathan Desmule Legend in the robotics EOD community.

• 1:44:10Speaker 00

  And he was, that guy was amazing. He was, he was able to splice fiber optic back together on some of these, these robots and so forth. Anyway, they, I heard this rumor that we had, we, the unit, had Bin Laden in their sights three times. And it was denied down the channel, a very short channel command. So it was very unique that

• 1:44:36Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:44:37Speaker 00

  Straight from the president

• 1:44:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:39Speaker 00

  Down to

• 1:44:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:40Speaker 00

  This, this unit through a two-star general.

• 1:44:43Jesse Michels?

  What was the rationale? Do you have any sense?

• 1:44:46Speaker 00

  They never got it.

• 1:44:47Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy.

• 1:44:47Speaker 00

  That was the problem. There was never any reason given. There's a lot of hypothesis later that I've heard from

• 1:44:54Jesse Michels?

  It's not like we wanted him alive. We killed him in Pakistan. It's like

• 1:44:58Speaker 00

  The one reasonable

• 1:45:02Speaker 00

  speculation that I heard 10 years later, skiing with a good buddy of mine, another aviator, very senior aviator, as a matter of fact, he was the senior aviator in the army. I tell you his name, but I haven't asked him yet, so.

• 1:45:16Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:45:18Speaker 00

  And he said, I think that we wanted to dangle Bin Laden out to get the other fish. Kind of like, you know, you have an insort.

• 1:45:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:29Speaker 00

  Kind of like the narco world, right?

• 1:45:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:31Speaker 00

  So you got, you got somebody, but you want to see how many little fish gather around so we can get them all up. There's, there's some logic to that.

• 1:45:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:39Speaker 00

  But in any case, the impact on me was near tragic.

• 1:45:44Jesse Michels?

  But the way, if you, I'm just, I just want to play devil's advocate there. Then you take the guy hostage and you get the other fish. I mean, you have more leverage if the guy is in your custody than if you, he's just out free. I mean, come on.

• 1:46:00Speaker 00

  And on a ski lift, I think that's exactly how I addressed that.

• 1:46:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:04Speaker 00

  So the, at that time, during the spin up,

• 1:46:10Speaker 00

  I was furious because we didn't have any microphones on any of our robots and I had mandated early on in my DARPA program, we gotta have microphones. We gotta have the same sensing capacity as a human, right? Because we don't want to do worse than a human, right? Why do you want to put a robot in if you, if there's, you know, there's, there's obviously value that, that a robot can fit in a hole that a human can't, but we at least gotta be able to hear, right? Because I wanted to use them as assets, right? If Bin Laden's down in that tunnel, I want to be able to hear what the heck he's saying, right? And that's part of the, that's why I need SF guys, special forces guys, because we're language trained and we can understand what the hell he's saying.

• 1:46:54Speaker 00

  So we didn't have microphones, I was furious. So I catch a space A, a space available flight, first to Turkey, to Interlaken, and then to Germany, and while I'm in Germany with Nate, we hear about Operation Anaconda and how everything has gone to hell in a handbasket. And helicopters are shot down, all this stuff. And it just took all the wind out of my sails because then when I came back, and now that there was all these rumors about, well, and, you know, we had Bin Laden three times, and I'm like, what the hell am I doing here?

• 1:47:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:35Speaker 00

  If, if we find him.

• 1:47:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:37Speaker 00

  With the robot.

• 1:47:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:39Speaker 00

  What, they're just gonna say no?

• 1:47:41Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:47:42Speaker 00

  So what is, so you can imagine the effect on, on the motivation.

• 1:47:45Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's demoralizing.

• 1:47:47Speaker 00

  So I was totally demoralized.

• 1:47:50Jesse Michels?

  Kabuki theater, you're just chasing around a guy just to let him go every time, it's weird.

• 1:47:55Speaker 00

  Exactly. And so when I got back, I, I, I out briefed the DARPA director, uh, and, and he said, okay, well, we'll, we'll get microphones on him and so forth. And I said, no, sir, that's not good enough. I need to pick, handpick my team of the guys that are gonna run these robots around.

• 1:48:17Speaker 00

  And he refused, so I resent. That's the end of that story.

• 1:48:20Jesse Michels?

  Crazy story. Well, John, you were, you were Green Beret, am I wrong?

• 1:48:24Speaker 00

  That's correct.

• 1:48:25Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so a recent Green Beret just came on my show. His name is Randy Anderson. I believe you know him now.

• 1:48:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:33Jesse Michels?

  And Randy has a pretty amazing story. He says that he was stationed as an 18 Bravo Weapons Sergeant at Naval Surface Warfare Crane in Indiana. That he was taken in an elevator underground, taken past a bunch of security checkpoints into a SKIF, a secret compartmentalized information facility. And the placard on the wall of the SKIF was Offworld Technologies. And he was shown two things. An orb levitating above a podium and a gauntlet, like almost like a glove-like thing emitting hieroglyphics. And I have his DD 214.

• 1:49:17Jesse Michels?

  I have a couple of his colleagues' DD 214s. I know for a fact that he still occasionally does contract work for Area 51. I think people don't realize how big of a test site that is. And that they're not going to like fire this guy for, he didn't break any NDAs as a result of this. He just, you know, it was, it was just the NDA, you know, the Naval Surface Warfare Crane NDA. Nothing to do with Area 51. They wouldn't retaliate. If they did retaliate, it would, it would be self-identification for Area 51. So you have all these people kind of coming at the story, saying it's bullshit. I, I, I lend it a lot of credence, given what I've gotten to know about him over the last, you know, couple of months. I've, I've known him for maybe four or five months now.

• 1:50:01Jesse Michels?

  But I've done, you know, extra research on it. What, what, what do you think about his story?

• 1:50:08Speaker 00

  So before he came on your show.

• 1:50:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:10Speaker 00

  Long before he came on your show.

• 1:50:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:13Speaker 00

  I, I had quite a bit of interaction with him, Dave Grush,

• 1:50:18Speaker 00

  through maybe one other person, maybe it was Michael Rera.

• 1:50:23Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:50:24Speaker 00

  Put me in touch with him. And again, with the same notion that Ross and Dave wanted me to do with Jake.

• 1:50:29Jesse Michels?

  Suss him out.

• 1:50:31Speaker 00

  Just, just, no, just.

• 1:50:36Speaker 00

  Be a compassionate, open ear and um and yeah, you know, again, tell them my story and and part of the value of this is when these guys come out, at least they're not as crazy as the Colonel, who thinks he was fricking abducted by a praying mantis.

• 1:50:58Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:50:58Speaker 00

  Right? And so it kind of, it kind of encourages them.

• 1:51:02Jesse Michels?

  But what was your assessment of the core story? I mean, do you think that?

• 1:51:07Speaker 00

  I I I believe every aspect of his story. Uh, I don't have the same level of confidence because I didn't meet him with four other guys that I could see.

• 1:51:19Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:51:19Speaker 00

  And lots of lots of behavior.

• 1:51:20Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:51:20Speaker 00

  But I find zero inconsistency with what he said. Now, there's a couple of details, very important details that you left out in your summary.

• 1:51:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:31Speaker 00

  And uh, one was the long elevator ride.

• 1:51:33Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:51:34Speaker 00

  Right? And the notion that topside, the facility, he didn't, he didn't really describe it as being decrepit. But it wasn't that, I think the way he described it is it wasn't really state of the art.

• 1:51:51Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:51Speaker 00

  Right? But when he, when he got to the bottom of that long elevator ride, it was very sophisticated, right? And so that is entirely consistent with an advanced weapons development structure, right? First of all, underground is absolutely the most secure facility you can imagine.

• 1:52:16Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:52:16Speaker 00

  And and why worry about fence lines and and canines and security forces, folks? If you're what 100 feet below below grade.

• 1:52:25Jesse Michels?

  And there are rumors of deep underground military bases from Edwards to Nellis to Peterson in Colorado and and Cheyenne Mountain Complex, Norah, like you, this stuff is, there's enough smoke there where I, you know, you don't have to say anything without me saying, I think there's some fire, but.

• 1:52:43Speaker 00

  Uh, I've been in several of them.

• 1:52:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:45Speaker 00

  I've never, never been read on any, read in on anything in my entire career.

• 1:52:50Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:52:51Speaker 00

  But the smoke is very, very prominent and hot.

• 1:52:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:57Speaker 00

  Never saw any flames.

• 1:52:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:58Speaker 00

  But the other, the gauntlet, the space ghost glove.

• 1:53:02Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:53:03Speaker 00

  That he described in the sphere, totally consistent with Bob Lazar's story from 1988.

• 1:53:12Jesse Michels?

  Why is the glove, I didn't know, is the glove part of Bob Lazar's story?

• 1:53:16Speaker 00

  No, the, the, um, the sphere was.

• 1:53:20Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:53:21Speaker 00

  But.

• 1:53:22Jesse Michels?

  But I thought Bob Lazar worked on like a sports model, like alien reproduction vehicle, sort of UFO thing. I didn't know that he saw like a sphere orb or something.

• 1:53:31Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. He describes a basketball sized, maybe a smaller, maybe soccer ball sized ish. Um, item and as he approached it and tried to, it was, it was, it was sort of like he had magnetic gloves on.

• 1:53:46Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:53:47Speaker 00

  Of all opposite polarity. And so he couldn't get there.

• 1:53:51Jesse Michels?

  I, that story's come up a ton, seeing a sphere being tested for your psionic abilities, your, your, your, your mind matter capabilities or something via this sphere thing.

• 1:54:02Speaker 00

  Well, I don't, I don't wanna.

• 1:54:03Jesse Michels?

  I just interviewed a psionic asset. Yeah. Who has that story? Uh, and so just, that just keeps coming up, this sort of sphere thing that often, I guess in Randy's case, he says it came off the craft. It wasn't the craft itself. It came off the craft. And then I would just had Michael Schrat on, who's this deep UFO researcher who goes through all of Leonard Stringfield's stuff.

• 1:54:27Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:28Jesse Michels?

  And he's, he's describes this egg, um, and the egg is cracked and it's, it's taken to the, to Berkeley labs to be studied. And there on the inside is a sphere inside of the egg. So I have no idea. We're getting in super speculative territory, but okay. So Lazar, who, what else would corroborate? Cause Lazar, I think reasonably to somebody in the audience is like, you know, who knows? So is there anybody else that, yeah, go for it.

• 1:54:57Speaker 00

  Well, uh, other elements of smoke, this is more wispy than the thick carcinogenic heavy black smoke, but, um.

• 1:55:07Speaker 00

  Crane's not far from Wright Patterson.

• 1:55:09Jesse Michels?

  No, it's a few hour drive, three hours.

• 1:55:12Speaker 00

  And it's a Navy facility.

• 1:55:13Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:55:14Speaker 00

  Um, now, what, what I could tell you about, um, Randy's specialty as an 18 Bravo, a weapons sergeant. Uh, these guys really are, are quite special. One of the final exams during the special forces Q course is called the pile test. Did Randy tell you about any of that?

• 1:55:34Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:55:35Speaker 00

  I don't think he mentioned that. I, I saw, uh, your interview with him.

• 1:55:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:38Speaker 00

  So, um.

• 1:55:39Jesse Michels?

  Talked about stress fractures everywhere, just how, but now what's the pile test?

• 1:55:44Speaker 00

  The pile test is so a weapons sergeant in, in their six months of training, they're trained on all sorts of foreign weapons. And, uh, you, you have to learn how to assemble them, disassemble them, repair them. Because you're behind enemy lines, you've got to, we call it battlefield recovery. You use whatever you pull off the battlefield. And you repair them and give them back to the, the, the guerrillas that survived or the, you know, foreign internal defense. You're, you're, you're kind of trying to do counter guerrilla, but one way or another, these weapons, you need to be an expert, like almost an armored level. A lot of, a lot of these guys end up, after they retire, they go run gun shops and they, they become armed.

• 1:56:27Speaker 00

  So the pile test is out of all the weapons, and I don't know how many they learn over the course of their training. It's probably double digits, like 11, 12, 15 different weapons. And so these weapons are randomly selected and they come in and there's a table.

• 1:56:48Speaker 00

  And all the weapons are there and then the instructor clicks the stopwatch and they got to disassemble all the weapons. And then, okay, everybody's timed and everybody that doesn't make it a certain amount of time, you're a no go. And then you got to do a retest. So you're out and then you got to come back and do it again. And then, uh, same thing. Okay. Now disassemble it, put it all together. All right. Anybody that doesn't disassemble it, it's a lot easier than assembling usually. Um, and every now and then there'll be as, cause there's little springs, tiny little springs. And, and you'll hear like a ping and the spring goes flying across the room and the guy's like, oh shit.

• 1:57:31Speaker 00

  And so you gotta go scramble, get the spring. So lots of hilarious stories about that. But the pile test is after those two pretests. Then uh they gotta stand up and come away from the table and then the after the disassembly, the instructor comes over and mixes all the parts. So now you you have a pile of random parts. And then you sit back down at your chair in front of this table with all these parts. And then the instructor clicks the watch and you have to reassemble all these these weapons. And then they turn the lights on.

• 1:58:13Speaker 00

  And there's a timed test. That's how good these guys gotta be. That in total darkness, they reassemble all these weapons. So with that level of perspective on ballistics and and armor sort of skills. It would make sense that you would want somebody like that to go examine these potential weapons instead of a nuclear physicist.

• 1:58:40Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:58:41Speaker 00

  Right? If you're trying to figure out what possible way we might reverse engineer this sort of thing.

• 1:58:47Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:58:48Speaker 00

  So that's why I say there's no there's no inconsistency with Randy's story. It's it's totally consistent and commensurate with his skill set and his his skill level.

• 1:58:58Jesse Michels?

  Also about half of the crashed UFO craft stories involve hieroglyphics. So like it that actually that isn't super random either. But yeah, it's just it's so interesting. And I think the thing in his case is he he will admit, he's like, I don't know why I was shown this stuff. But like, you know, and I don't know if this is some bizarre psy op or whatever. But I think the core experience is real. There's no reason, I mean, the other thing you can probably speak to is, you know, and I've spoken to a couple of his Green Beret colleagues now. Um, I've seen the their DD two 14s. I know they're sort of one of them was actually does still does work with him at Area 51. And was like, yeah, I saw that green orb that Randy talked about.

• 1:59:40Jesse Michels?

  So, you know, and the other, I think, has a, you know, successful company and the, and a lot of Green Berets sort of follow this person. So,

• 1:59:48Jesse Michels?

  yeah, I, I believe him. I believe his core story. He doesn't really get anything out of this. You know, we plugged his like self-defense local company in Las Vegas at the end of the thing, but it's like, there's, he's not doing this for, you know, fame or, you know, any, any, he doesn't have ulterior motives. So, it, it was really painful to see certain people online go after his credentials and background. Like, I know where he was deployed. I know a lot more actually about some war feats that like I, I wanted to say, but he didn't because of the, you know, the Green Beret way. And to see people kind of question his service and record when, you know, 20 people in his graduating class of Green Berets aren't alive. It's like, it's just shameful. It's like, it's so ridiculous.

• 2:00:34Speaker 00

  Well, that's another consistency, right? Because we keep our mouths shut. Right? That, that our motto is quiet professionals.

• 2:00:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:43Speaker 00

  And so.

• 2:00:44Jesse Michels?

  He wanted to do it anonymously. He wanted his face blurred out until a day before we shot. He was like, and I was like, dude, I don't think that's gonna help. And, but.

• 2:00:54Speaker 00

  He and I talked about that a little bit and, and discussed it by text back and forth.

• 2:01:01Speaker 00

  And I, and I think that, you know, he, like, like Danny Sheehan's interpretation of the law of an NDA. An NDA does not apply to them.

• 2:01:17Speaker 00

  It, it's unless we have declared war on them. This non-disclosure agreement that you discussed that you're not going to talk about, you know, anything that, that will betray our ability to fight our adversaries.

• 2:01:34Jesse Michels?

  Of course.

• 2:01:35Speaker 00

  Well, and we still haven't declared war on China yet either.

• 2:01:39Jesse Michels?

  Right?

• 2:01:39Speaker 00

  And so.

• 2:01:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, but it's also the, clearly the, the underlying principle behind NDA, it's like. Yeah, don't let a blueprint as to how to build some, you know, crazy weapon. I don't tip your hat to the adversary. But if it's ontological truth, if it's just a core thing that like humanity should know, you can't NDA that. I'm sorry. That's ridiculous. That's just dumb. Like some, if it's, if it's a principle, you know, in, uh, you know,

• 2:02:10Jesse Michels?

  tricks of the trade that could cause harm if in the wrong hands, of course, yeah, NDA the shit out of that. But I mean, this, this stuff is, it's for humanity. It's ridiculous. It's crazy.

• 2:02:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, I mentioned this in my first interview when I finally graduated with Marie McNeely. And I'm indebted to her and Josh Elder for, for setting that up for me.

• 2:02:33Speaker 00

  And at one point she was asking me a question. I said, you know, I, I kind of want to stay away from that. And she said, oh, I totally understand. Uh, I wouldn't want you to get in trouble for divulging any secrets. And I, and I gently explained to her, it's not about getting in trouble. I've been in trouble all my life. Right? It's about protecting sources and methods and your brothers and sisters in arms. You don't want to put them at risk. Right? Kind of like, you know, the Mission Impossible thing, the knock list gets out. Right? So, um, so there's, there's this ethical morality balance there.

• 2:03:15Speaker 00

  But, but, you know, speculatively, let's, let's take a step back from into LEO, to Leo, to, to low Earth orbit. Right? And let's look at this planet. Do you see any boundaries between cities or between countries? Do we see any boundaries between the United States of America? So we're so divided right now. Look at, look at what would have happened if we did have a civil war, right? And you've got nuclear weapons in Wyoming and South Dakota.

• 2:03:52Speaker 00

  And, um, Montana, and one of, one of those two states are on opposite sides of the Civil War. Are we gonna nuke our own country?

• 2:04:06Jesse Michels?

  Be disastrous.

• 2:04:08Speaker 00

  Right? And so, let's, let's take a step back and extend beyond the, the boundaries of the, the divided states of America, right? And let's look at the divided nations of Earth.

• 2:04:22Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:04:23Speaker 00

  Right? Same thing. Are we humans really gonna frickin' nuke each other over silly spats about economics? When there's a potential for way bigger problems?

• 2:04:38Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:04:39Speaker 00

  Right? Out there? So Reagan's famous speech, right? With Gorbachev. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. What, what if we were, how ridiculous all our petty little disagreements?

• 2:04:55Jesse Michels?

  It's funny, Reagan, apparently, I've heard rumors that Star Wars initiatives actually dealt with, you know, the UFO question, some of these, you know, weapons ramp ups in the early eighties. A lot of Reagan's speeches dealt with non-human intelligence and stuff, you know, in the, in the mid eighties.

• 2:05:14Speaker 00

  That's not speculation, that is fact.

• 2:05:17Jesse Michels?

  Well, I-

• 2:05:18Speaker 00

  You can go, you can go look at those speeches.

• 2:05:20Jesse Michels?

  The facts that I know, I know of one speech where he said, it's like, you know, it's like if there was an alien invasion, you know, it would totally unite us as a human race. And then there's a second story, uh, Gorbachev told, um, Charlie Rose, and he says, you know, I don't remember, it was some UN event or something, and he's sitting next to Reagan, and Reagan whispers over before the event starts, and he says, you know, in the event of an alien invasion, would you help us?

• 2:05:47Speaker 05

  President Reagan subtly said to me, what would you do if the United States were attacked by someone from-

• 2:06:02Speaker 07

  Outer space. Would you help us? I said, no doubt about it.

• 2:06:11Speaker 07

  He said, we do.

• 2:06:13Jesse Michels?

  And so, um, yeah.

• 2:06:15Speaker 00

  This is one of the most powerful aspects of Robert Hastings' book, UFO and Nukes.

• 2:06:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, great book.

• 2:06:21Speaker 00

  That, you know, he and Bob Jacobs and Terry and Mario Woods and Jeff Goodrich, who still hasn't had his story told.

• 2:06:29Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:06:29Speaker 00

  Uh, and that deserves, so we could talk about that later.

• 2:06:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I'd love to.

• 2:06:32Speaker 00

  Put you guys in touch.

• 2:06:33Jesse Michels?

  That'd be awesome.

• 2:06:34Speaker 00

  But, but the, the, part of the most compelling aspect of that is the collective perspective that most of us share. I don't want to speak for all of them, but, but I took away from it was the notion, and Robert has said this on, in his documentary and many interviews, that the collective feeling from it is that we are playing with fire. We, I call, I, I have a chapter called Nuclear Matchsticks.

• 2:07:05Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:07:06Speaker 00

  We are essentially kids playing with matches in the backyard.

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• 2:07:43Jesse Michels?

  I believe that, and I believe if you, this gets into weird kind of ontological truth and metaphysics, but maybe we're poking holes in reality with certain high-energy physics experiments and with, you know, some of the nuclear stuff. And. It's almost opening portals to another world. And I think that the really interesting phenomena that happens after that is you have all these really tough guys who get spooked by really crazy, you know, entities that they encounter. And after those encounters, they kind of turn on the system and they're like, we have to, we need to, we need peace. We, you know, we need to, we need to lay our arms down. You're a great example. Yeah.

• 2:08:24Speaker 00

  I'm a member of that club. We're all members of that club.

• 2:08:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And it's fascinating to see. It's, you know, Randy Anderson's great example, where he's, that guy's a tough dude. You just, you just see like, you know, that guy could beat the shit out of me. And, but he's going through this like, really interesting journey where he's, I think, waking up, becoming more conscious. And that's what prompted him to come out to me with this story. And, uh, and we had really deep conversations before putting the story out that I wish people could see around his, you know, uh, reforming as a person, sort of almost spiritual awakening. And that's happening to a lot of military guys. So it's almost like you're poking the beehive, the bees come out and then you're like, actually, you know, you kind of reform. You realize that there's, you know.

• 2:09:07Speaker 00

  To quote Jake Barber, it's not ontological shock. It's ontological relief.

• 2:09:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:14Speaker 00

  We, we, we understand now. And we, and so, yeah. So, and that's why we do this. All right.

• 2:09:23Jesse Michels?

  One other detail I want to talk to you about specifically with the Randy Anderson story is he was introduced to me by an amazing UFO researcher named UAP Gerb. Recommend everybody check out his channel. It's really deep, incredible stuff. And, uh, his name's Sammy, UAP Gerb. He's done a deep dive on, basically, he thinks that SAIC, which is located right next to Naval Service Warfare Crane, was the contractor doing the psionic testing. They're on record doing psychotronic testing and other cases, you know, getting into that area. I think they wrote a paper on, or they commissioned a paper on electrogravitics, James Woodward, and I think 88 or something. You know, they're, they're very deep on, uh,

• 2:10:06Jesse Michels?

  alternative science that is UFO adjacent, let's just say. So you were VP of SAIC for six months. Do you think that SAIC was the contractor for Randy?

• 2:10:17Speaker 00

  Uh, I, I have read a lot of smoke, no flames.

• 2:10:25Speaker 00

  I I was brought aboard SAIC to take over a troubled robotics division out in Littleton, Colorado.

• 2:10:36Speaker 00

  And I I didn't get very far because I was almost immediately pulled back to DARPA.

• 2:10:44Speaker 00

  I was I was really excited about taking over that division. I had some some very some I had a lot of optimism that we could make some big impact. But that, I mean, it was like three days after I'm at ground zero and DARPA is calling me. Art Morris, great friend of mine, brilliant scientist. And he's like, hey, we want to get you back. We're we're getting ready to go to overseas. He just left it at that, right? Because it was still early on, but we all knew it was Afghanistan, right?

• 2:11:22Speaker 00

  And I was like, dude, I'm I got my hands full here. Let me I'm trying to rescue people for crying out loud. Killing people and going after bin Laden, that's secondary. Let's let me take care of this stuff first. And then it stayed back burner until I ended up turning over robots to another great hero, Sergeant First Class Dave Platt, and ended up finally getting back to my house that I had just bought in in Colorado and and then got redeployed there. So I only had maybe thirty days total time at SAIC before I had to take a leave of absence

• 2:12:05Speaker 00

  from there to go become a GS15 doctor. So not really a lot of opportunity to peek under the skirt and look around for any, you know, interesting stuff. So, um, so, yeah, I was never ran into anything at SAIC.

• 2:12:24Speaker 00

  I gave one briefing on the potential of small robots to sneak into little nooks and crannies.

• 2:12:32Speaker 00

  Kind of a threefer, you know? That's got value for looking in rubble, right? Because if you're 250 pound firefighter with a scuba tank, you ain't fitting up underneath that that couch, right? And a security system that's designed to detect a two meter bag of water.

• 2:12:51Speaker 00

  Probably not going to detect something the size of my fist. Yeah. Right, sneaking through the, the barbed wire. And if we're going to be looking for microbial life on Mars, it makes no sense to be wandering around the surface of a planet that is literally bathed in poisonous radiation. Hmm. Chris McKay, I'll never forget it. He, he gave a phenomenal lecture. Um, but in, in the summer of 2001, uh, it was a, it was a, um, fundraiser to kind of motivate all of us that were going to go up to, to the Houghton Crater

• 2:13:34Speaker 00

  as part of the NASA's HMP Houghton, Houghton Mars Project. And there was the Mars Underground, so forth. So there's some video of me on, on a website on my LinkedIn page. Day 17 in the Mars simulation, and a new crew member arrives with some unusual American military technology.

• 2:13:54Speaker 06

  My name is Lieutenant Colonel John Blitch. Treat it like a American football. And you're running for the end zone. I'm a program manager for the Tactical Mobile Robotics Program at the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency.

• 2:14:07Speaker 00

  It was a wonderful experience with, with Dr. Pascal Lee, um, Dr. Bob Zubrin, um, Dr. Darlene Lim, all these people, brilliant. And, and we essentially played like we were Mars astronauts. And my role was the robot guy. And I brought a bunch of robots from DARPA up there to pretend that we were on Mars. And, and the niche was fitting into little nooks and crannies. The shadows, that's where you're going to find microbes. And Chris McKay has shared with us, he, he, he held us and rapped attention for like two and a half hours with two slides. One was like, uh, Red Mars, and then maybe Blue Mars or Green Mars, I forget.

• 2:14:51Speaker 00

  And, and, uh, James Ken was there, I met him. And he was taking a lot of heat because of, I forget the name of the movie. I think it was Red Mars or something Mars. And, and he took a lot of heat. And finally he said, okay, it's just a movie for crying out loud, right? You know, let, let, let me off the hook, but. Chris was always a big opponent of manned missions because he felt that we were going to contaminate the surface. So how do you know if a hitchhiker, uh, microbe doesn't fall off your skin, end up on your boot, and then suddenly blooms and flourishes in

• 2:15:34Speaker 00

  the soil on Mars or whatever. So he was, he was at, I think he was at Ames, NASA Ames, and, and there was friction between the astronaut folks at Johnson Space Center and the scientists there, the pro-robot guys. We can only afford to send robots and we gotta, of course, you're gonna, you know, do them in a clean room and make sure there's no dust on them or whatever. And then he suddenly realized, I don't know when his epiphany was, but it was before he did this lecture, that, you know what, there is no chance of anything surviving on the surface of Mars because of all of the radiation. So now he's like, we should send astronauts,

• 2:16:16Speaker 00

  do it now. And that was in 2001, and before we launched up there in July of 2001.

• 2:16:23Jesse Michels?

  What do you think of these structures that we're now finding on Mars? Like, these sort of anomalous, artificial-looking structures? Do you think that Mars at one point had life? You know, even the conventional sort of astronomical understanding of Mars is that maybe at some point it did have life and that its magnetosphere was stripped?

• 2:16:43Speaker 00

  Uh, there is extremely compelling evidence, in my personal and professional opinion, that there, the, so, don't take it from me, Richard Hoagland, you know, the face on Mars guy?

• 2:16:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:58Speaker 00

  And the pyramids, Sedonia.

• 2:16:59Jesse Michels?

  But Hoagland was also a little nutty in other ways, but...

• 2:17:02Speaker 00

  He's not the only one.

• 2:17:03Jesse Michels?

  But a lot of, a lot of Hoagland's stuff is becoming vindicated. Like you, you read the first part of Dark Mission, that book, and like, he's talking about the, you know, uh, Quaternian, you know, like, uh, Maxwell's equations, the, the, you know, expanded version of Maxwell's equations being more faithful than the heavy side simplification. And two years ago, you could have said, that's quacky and ridiculous or whatever. Now you have the National Science Foundation, NASA, doing podcasts, talking about this stuff. And I've spoken to enough serious aerospace people where I'm like, I think that's real. And then if that's real, then like, I don't know, is our whole rocket program just a weird, you know, pagan ritual cult? Like, I'm not sure. I don't know.

• 2:17:48Speaker 00

  Well, you know, since we're down that rabbit hole, uh, uh, John Brennerberg's series.

• 2:17:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:57Speaker 00

  Books.

• 2:17:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:57Speaker 00

  About the, the isotopic ratio that is exclusive, as far as we know, to a nuclear detonation.

• 2:18:09Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:18:11Speaker 00

  And that huge ballast malineros.

• 2:18:16Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:18:16Speaker 00

  And, and so he speculates that whatever civilization was there was eradicated.

• 2:18:25Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:18:25Speaker 00

  In nuclear war. And he has the, the, the chemical photonic evidence that he presents very compellingly, in my opinion, that, you know, that, that there's correlations and there's causation, right? And so if you have correlation, how does correlation becomes causality?

• 2:18:48Jesse Michels?

  Is it an isotope that's only a nuke could create or something?

• 2:18:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:18:52Jesse Michels?

  What is the isotope? Do we know?

• 2:18:53Speaker 00

  So, um, so you have this correlation between.

• 2:18:59Speaker 00

  These factors and this result. And then correlation becomes causation when Occam's razor slices through all of the other alternatives. And that's all, if you can account for all the other variables, then you're left with, by the law, parsimony. That's, that's the only thing they got. And so that's how it becomes causation. So he could find no other reasonable.

• 2:19:36Speaker 00

  No other reasonable mechanism for that isotopic ratio to be there.

• 2:19:44Jesse Michels?

  I want to talk.

• 2:19:45Speaker 00

  Other than a nuclear donation. I'll send you the link to a bunch of his books.

• 2:19:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:49Speaker 00

  He's, he's got three that I know.

• 2:19:50Jesse Michels?

  He does like gravity experiments as well. Is that the same John Brandenburg or is that different?

• 2:19:55Speaker 00

  Um, I don't recall any gravity experiments, but it might be.

• 2:19:59Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:20:00Speaker 00

  It could be.

• 2:20:01Jesse Michels?

  Wow. Yeah. I also, I just spoke to Joseph McMonigal.

• 2:20:04Speaker 00

  Did you?

• 2:20:05Jesse Michels?

  Who was part of, yeah, yeah, the, you know, remote viewing program. And he, he remote viewed Mars a million years ago. Claimed to see all these pyramids. And then he says he's now in touch with all these guys at JPL who are sending him all these artificial structures on, on Mars. And I saw the photos at his place. And, you know, he's not super deep on the provenance of, you know, and like exactly what the credentials are of the people he's in touch with, but it, I'm super curious because.

• 2:20:32Speaker 00

  Have you, are you familiar with Carl Wolf and his testimony?

• 2:20:36Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lieutenant Carl Wolf. Yeah. With, uh, this was, uh, he was in a dark room and he saw the, this photo of a, a structure. But that, that was on the moon?

• 2:20:46Speaker 00

  He was, he was not a lieutenant.

• 2:20:48Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:20:49Speaker 00

  He was a senior airman.

• 2:20:50Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:20:51Speaker 00

  Uh, and he was at, um, he was, he was a, a photo repair technician.

• 2:20:58Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 2:20:59Speaker 00

  And, and this was, he.

• 2:21:01Jesse Michels?

  He claimed to be in some like, in a, like a, a special compartment of NASA or something. It was like in a mountain, right?

• 2:21:10Speaker 00

  No, it was at Langley.

• 2:21:11Jesse Michels?

  It was at Langley.

• 2:21:12Speaker 00

  And he went into a room and, um, he was surprised because there was a lot of foreign language spoken.

• 2:21:22Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:21:23Speaker 00

  And he came to realize that there were. Um, apparently, you know, just based on

• 2:21:30Jesse Michels?

  He said it was an international space program.

• 2:21:32Speaker 00

  That there are a bunch of scientists from all over the world. There at this meeting. And he was brought in to repair a um device for photo processing that was broken. And the other person in the room, I think, was also an Air Force airman. Started whispering to him that that they had discovered huge structures on the dark side of the moon. And so he became uncomfortable because he knew that this guy was telling him something that he wasn't supposed to know. So this is part of this.

• 2:22:15Jesse Michels?

  But he saw a photo.

• 2:22:17Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:22:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:18Speaker 00

  The guy showed him.

• 2:22:19Jesse Michels?

  The guy showed him a photo and then he made a speech about it and then he died. He got hit by a car on his bike or something. It was weird.

• 2:22:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, he he was riding his bike and he was hit by a semi tractor trailer. And so this this comes into some of this, you know,

• 2:22:35Speaker 00

  uh, rumor, some hot smoke on some of this of people being eliminated with the use of deadly force that is rationalized by the notion that we really have to keep this secret because

• 2:22:53Jesse Michels?

  Why?

• 2:22:54Speaker 00

  Too scary for, uh, you know, uh.

• 2:22:58Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there are structures on the dark side of the moon? China is now going to the dark side of the moon.

• 2:23:03Speaker 00

  I have no red flags of inconsistency of inconsistency to say otherwise.

• 2:23:11Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, yeah, but hmm, I feel like the the burden of proof should be on the person saying that there are possibly structures on the dark side of the moon.

• 2:23:18Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Well, yeah, the burden of proof is really interesting, right?

• 2:23:21Jesse Michels?

  Like, would you would you say your base case is that there are structures on the dark side of the moon?

• 2:23:27Speaker 00

  Um, no, I, I, all I'm saying is I have no reason to disbelieve Carl Wolf.

• 2:23:35Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:23:36Speaker 00

  He didn't, he didn't write a book and get rich and famous.

• 2:23:39Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 2:23:40Speaker 00

  That I know of, um, and the fact of the matter is UFO books don't sell.

• 2:23:47Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:23:47Speaker 00

  The vast majority of them, especially abduction books. That's way too crazy. Uh, so, um, so I don't have any reason to disbelieve Carl Wolf. And the logic of what he described, uh, tracks. It's, it's consistent in, in my personal opinion.

• 2:24:05Jesse Michels?

  The moon itself is a very weird structure. You know, you have a Apollo ten, I believe, took off and then it sort of rang like a bell.

• 2:24:15Speaker 00

  Twelve.

• 2:24:15Jesse Michels?

  Apollo twelve. No, was it twelve? I thought it was, it was twelve because.

• 2:24:20Speaker 00

  Ten didn't land, eleven landed.

• 2:24:21Jesse Michels?

  Eleven landed, rang like a bell. Twelve, twelve, they put se- se- seismometers in the earth and then they crashed the booster intentionally and then it rang like a bell for three hours.

• 2:24:31Speaker 00

  I think it was twelve and fifteen.

• 2:24:32Jesse Michels?

  Oh.

• 2:24:33Speaker 00

  Twelve, when they took off, they, um, they, they de-orbited, um, the, I think it was the command module. No, it wasn't the command module, command module.

• 2:24:48Jesse Michels?

  The booster.

• 2:24:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was the booster.

• 2:24:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:50Speaker 00

  And it, and it rang.

• 2:24:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:52Speaker 00

  And then they replicated it three missions later, as I understand it.

• 2:24:56Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I thought, and anyway.

• 2:24:57Speaker 00

  But either way.

• 2:24:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:58Speaker 00

  You had a repeatable.

• 2:25:00Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:25:02Speaker 00

  Effect.

• 2:25:03Jesse Michels?

  And you had Gordon McDonald, you know, space admin under Eisenhower saying, the only thing, I think he was at Columbia. He said, the only, the only explanation for the moon is that it's a hollow structure. And then you had remote viewers at the time, like Gingo Swan saying that, you know, the hollow, and this is actually a fact. Uh, the soil, you know, at the top of the moon, uh, is, uh, uh, uh, older than, uh, uh, sediment layers below it, which only pattern matches to excavation sites where hollow structures.

• 2:25:36Speaker 00

  Well, okay, to play.

• 2:25:38Jesse Michels?

  You shouldn't drill and then get newer stuff.

• 2:25:41Speaker 00

  Devil's advocate, if you have a, a meteorite.

• 2:25:45Speaker 00

  Um, strike.

• 2:25:47Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:25:47Speaker 00

  And it explodes, then you could have lower, lower layers that end up on top.

• 2:25:53Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:25:54Speaker 00

  That's possible.

• 2:25:55Jesse Michels?

  It's possible. Okay. Well, that, but that would just be in one region. That wouldn't be ubiquitous across the moon. Also, the moon is usually is way too big for a normal moon. And it is, uh, I mean, I don't know if this matters, but it is, it's like one four hundredths the size of the earth. And then it's 400 times closer to the earth than the sun. And it orbits in this perfect way where you never see the dark side, which is also very irregular. That's not something that you would normally encounter.

• 2:26:22Speaker 00

  Well, when we compare our moon.

• 2:26:24Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26:25Speaker 00

  Around this planet to other moons in our own solar system, we, which we know a lot about. It is highly irregular.

• 2:26:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's highly irregular. So it's been speculated that maybe it's sort of an artificial structure, like an alien satellite or something like that spaceship or.

• 2:26:42Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm well aware of a lot of that speculation.

• 2:26:45Jesse Michels?

  Okay. What's the weirdest thing that you can talk about that you worked on at DARPA?

• 2:26:53Speaker 00

  Weirdest?

• 2:26:53Jesse Michels?

  Most interesting, most mind, most mind blowing.

• 2:26:58Speaker 00

  Oh, well, my, my special access program, um, was trying to reverse engineer

• 2:27:11Speaker 00

  uh, camouflage from cephalopods.

• 2:27:14Jesse Michels?

  That's so cool.

• 2:27:16Speaker 00

  And, and what, what, what shook me up

• 2:27:22Speaker 00

  was the, um, sudden awareness that, um, up possibly in excess of 70%.

• 2:27:38Speaker 00

  Of neural processing in cephalopods is independent from their central nervous system. And the way, the way I became aware of it is with a couple of brilliant scientists from Israel, I think it was University of Haifa, maybe Benny Hockner and Tomorrow Flash, and they came to this, this fabulous workshop that Roger Hanlon from Marine Biological Laboratory at Woods Hole. And he's kind of the god of cephalopods and Cripsus behavior, brilliant guy. You could see his TED Talk.

• 2:28:21Speaker 00

  And that's dated back in 2012, but geez, 20 years or 15 years before that. I saw that same video and I sold a $70 million program based on that one video.

• 2:28:36Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:28:37Speaker 00

  And it shows him swimming along and he's coming across this coral reef and there's seaweed swaying back and forth. And as he approaches what looks like a rigid hunk of coral, all of a sudden Blanch is white and it's, and you see this big eye in the middle of it and it shoots off after squirting ink behind it.

• 2:29:03Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:29:04Speaker 00

  And that's an octopus.

• 2:29:05Jesse Michels?

  Were you successful?

• 2:29:06Speaker 00

  Uh, yes. And then a month later.

• 2:29:10Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:29:11Speaker 00

  It was canceled.

• 2:29:12Jesse Michels?

  Crazy.

• 2:29:13Speaker 00

  With no explanation.

• 2:29:15Jesse Michels?

  Very weird.

• 2:29:16Speaker 00

  No, I thought at the time, so this happened in fall of 2000.

• 2:29:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:22Speaker 00

  And I got word right after the election. So the, the election of 2012 or 2000, the turn of the century of the Y2K election was between Al Gore and George W. Bush.

• 2:29:39Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:29:40Speaker 00

  And it was a very tight election and it, it, it got down to the,

• 2:29:47Speaker 00

  Legendary hanging chads, they were counting ballots in Florida where they were worried about just this little tab not being fully open, whatever. And it got, it, it made, you know, 2020 look like a regular election almost, right? It was wild. And so, um, there was a lot of rumors about when the, when the Clinton administration left the White House, they had trashed it and all this stuff. And I was caught up in that and, and I, uh, erroneously attributed it to a political stunt, that the incoming administration was going to stick it to the outgoing administration

• 2:30:32Speaker 00

  by picking a couple of pet projects and, and just cancel them. Because that, that was, that was the best that I could do to make sense of the data, to connect all the dots. Uh, and I was furious about it and it, and it, it played no small role in me leaving DARPA and deciding to retire from the military. Uh, cause I, I, I suddenly started thinking, you know, I need to get my butt, and, and so S A C came to me and offered me this job, making way more money than I ever imagined I could, even as a retired colonel, right? And so, um, that, that combination of factors made me take that job and retire.

• 2:31:15Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:31:16Speaker 00

  Even though I, I, I felt like I, I still had, you know, I had hopes of making general officer. Matter of fact, I'd been told on several occasions that I, that I was gonna, that I, I was good for at least two stars. That's what quote was told to me.

• 2:31:30Jesse Michels?

  It's funny, speaking to you, it just, uh, it always makes me wonder how this UFO program operates or works. Cause like, I think you'd be like the best recruit for like something like that. No, see.

• 2:31:42Speaker 00

  I am a screw up, man.

• 2:31:43Jesse Michels?

  No, you, you, I mean, you're, you're into the topic, you have this interdisciplinary knowledge and then, yeah, it's just so weird. Like I, I, do you think S A I C had something to do with this, you know? Bobby Ray Inman, who is director of the CIA and I think like number two at NSA, like, you know, a rare person to be at the top of both organizations. And, you know, he has this call with Bob Ochsler, this, uh, you know, UFO researcher, and he's basically admitting that, you know, we have, we have UFOs in our possession. Do you anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be, uh, become available for technological research outside of the military circles?

• 2:32:28Speaker 02

  Again, I honestly don't know. Uh, 10 years ago, the answer would have been no. Whether as time has evolved, they're beginning to become more open on it, is a possibility. A short time later, Bob Exler received this call. Mr. Exler, this is Tom King in Admiral Inman's office. Yes, you would be breaching competence and/or violation of the discipline laws and discussing his involvement in any matter.

• 2:32:55Jesse Michels?

  And so it's-

• 2:32:57Speaker 00

  Ben Rich said same, same thing.

• 2:32:59Jesse Michels?

  Ben Rich did say the same thing.

• 2:33:01Speaker 00

  We have the technology, quote, "We have the technology to take ET home."

• 2:33:06Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that was bluster or propaganda? Do you think he really-

• 2:33:09Speaker 00

  Well, it's so, so again, putting my behavioral scientist cap on, ego's a powerful factor, right? In all of us. And, and I have to deal with that myself, right? All the time. And so, uh, we, you know, secrets bolster your ego. If, if I am told, "I'm gonna tell you something, but you can't tell Jesse," makes me feel important, alright? So imagine a 30-year career as a senior intelligence officer. You rise up through the ranks, right? And you get to be a GS-15, and you've, you've, you feel super special, like I'm the only

• 2:33:54Speaker 00

  guy on the planet that knows all this stuff. And your ego is just ballooned up.

• 2:34:04Speaker 00

  And it's, and what you gotta do is you gotta pop the balloon every now and then. And if, if you're surrounded by the right people that will pop that for you, not burst it, just puncture it and let a little air out some time and then maybe reinflate it back and forth. But without that counterbalance, it can really lead you into um some inaccurate assumptions. And that has certainly happened to me on more than one occasion. So I bring this into the conversation in the context of this threat narrative.

• 2:34:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:42Speaker 00

  And I, I really want to push back against the threat narrative and the fear that it, that it generates.

• 2:34:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, this stuff's not, it's not a threat. I mean, unless there's some specific thing that we're doing now that threatens them, that is wholesale, you know, orders of magnitude worse than like the creation of nukes. I don't, I don't see how it is a threat.

• 2:35:07Speaker 00

  Well, so, so, you know, my underlying um thesis for what I present in the Alien Abduction Amnesty Not is that the abduction phenomenon is at the center of all of this.

• 2:35:25Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:35:26Speaker 00

  And so I want to, I want to bow down yet again uh for, to all of my heroic brothers and sisters in the intelligence, intelligence community and thank them for their pessimistic point of view. They are inherently pessimistic and they have to be. Their whole career is based on briefing a commander with the worst possible case. So I want to counterbalance that and present a statistically based argument

• 2:36:04Speaker 00

  that 99% of the violent crime that is committed on this planet, not just the United States, globally, is committed by 1% of the population. So if you extrapolate from there, which is the only thing we can do unless somebody starts divulging secrets and telling us otherwise, 99% of them.

• 2:36:28Speaker 00

  Are friendly and there's only 1% that might be doing bad stuff to us. Now, the middle ground is the scientists, right? The veterinarians who come in and pluck us out of our bed, play with us, take me off my mountain bike, take me out of my bed after they're using the hurricane over my house and the cover to land, whatever they did.

• 2:36:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:55Speaker 00

  But that, there's compassion there because they remove our memories so that we can get on with our lives. If I could remove my Labrador Retriever's memory of every time I brought him to the vet, I would do it in a heartbeat.

• 2:37:08Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever seen the movie The Shape of Water?

• 2:37:11Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:37:12Jesse Michels?

  So that's a great movie. Guillermo del Toro talks about sort of mid-century experiments of human-animal hybridization. And I have met somebody who's former DARPA. He said he could tell me this because it didn't end, this project that he was working on never got approved, never got, went through, but it was a submission that he made. And it was based on the work of this guy, Richard Goldschmidt, who is an alternative to Darwin, you know, in the early 20th century, is this German guy. And it was hopeful monsters. So it was like you had like, you know, like a tiger and a lion mate or something, then you get a ligur. And in the ligur's case, it dies off or whatever.

• 2:37:56Jesse Michels?

  But like every once in a while, you get these sort of hybrids that fulfill this specific ecological niche that lives on. And that's how you get these sort of punctuated equilibrium, rapid speciation, you know, in the phylogenetic tree. That's how you get these jumps in evolution, which aren't really well explained in the pure Darwinian theory. And I found that fascinating. And I guess that never, you know, made it across the line. Do you think DARPA has ever experimented with human-animal hybrids or even alien hybrids?

• 2:38:29Speaker 00

  Uh, I, again, I've never been read in on anything, even a whisper of any of that. Uh, but.

• 2:38:39Speaker 00

  That is consistent with DARPA's mission.

• 2:38:42Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:38:43Speaker 00

  To do that type of research to ensure technological surprise for our country over our adversary.

• 2:38:54Jesse Michels?

  Do you know who?

• 2:38:54Speaker 00

  So I don't know what I don't know.

• 2:38:56Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever heard the name Detlev Bronk by any chance? So this guy was in charge of quote unquote, "alien autopsies" back in the day, but then he went on to run the Rockefeller Foundation and he was president of Johns Hopkins as well. He's doing all sorts of medical stuff. And so do you ever wonder if some of our, you know, things implemented in our kind of medical industry or food industry are actually derived from sort of, you know, alien stuff?

• 2:39:21Speaker 00

  Two word answer?

• 2:39:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:23Speaker 00

  Ontological relief.

• 2:39:27Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that Philip Corso's narrative is correct where like you have these meta-materials? Basically, you know, the, the sort of golden age of material science of, you know, the late 50s was a result of the Roswell materials being transferred to, you know, right pad? And then he was actually in charge of doling it out to kind of civil side commercial use cases?

• 2:39:48Speaker 00

  So, so that book was fascinating and I think I purchased it.

• 2:39:55Speaker 00

  Either, I don't know if it was at the same time. No, I think it was after. I think, I think, I think I bought it when I was at SoCon. So, um, another, so speaking of books, before I bought Corso's book, I bought Lenny Strieber's book, Community.

• 2:40:12Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:40:13Speaker 00

  Which is another anomalous behavior factor. It's not as strong as the mountain bike or the, or the bruises on the arm, but it is an anomalous one independently corroborated. Because my, my daughter and I were meeting my, my wife and my older daughter, this is right around the same time as the mountain bike time. We're cutting through the mall and we go through at Barnes and Noble and we're late.

• 2:40:39Speaker 00

  And so we're hustling along and I happen to glance as we're cutting through. And I freeze in my tracks like, like solid frozen.

• 2:40:51Speaker 00

  Uh, and I, and I am paralyzed with fear. And it's, and the hairs, here it goes again, the hairs standing up on my arms. And, um, I'm, I'm staring over at the wall to my right and it's, it's with East Treber's book. It's the face, the communion face. And I, I froze in my tracks and the next thing I know, my, my daughter is tugging on my hand. And unbeknownst to me, she had continued walking through, through the bookstore, gone out to the mall, wondered where the hell I was and came back and grabbed me. She's like, Dad, come on, we're gonna be late. And so I let her drag me out of the store essentially and we go back.

• 2:41:33Speaker 00

  And so I make some excuse to my wife, they're, they're, I think they were buying school stuff, school clothes or whatever. So I came straight back to that bookstore and I bought the book. And I immediately ripped the cover off and threw it in the trash before I walked out of the door. And it was, again, that weird anomalous behavior. And so I think it was a couple, a few years after that.

• 2:41:55Jesse Michels?

  It triggered you in some way.

• 2:41:57Speaker 00

  Then I bought Corso's book.

• 2:41:58Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:41:59Speaker 00

  Right? And so, and then at, at one point, um, we had a, uh, we had a St. Patrick's Day party at, um, at DARPA. At, at our office, it was the, it was obviously sent 17 March, I think it was 17 March 2001. Uh, my wife and I had just separated, uh, preparing for a divorce that she had asked for. Uh, and it was that, uh, we had been on the rocks for a while. Uh, I had cheated on her earlier in my, uh, relationship. I just, you know, I wasn't a good husband, I'm a good dad. I was just testosterone filled warrior, you know, mentality, blah, blah, blah. I've, I've come around to sort of try to forgive myself for that.

• 2:42:43Speaker 00

  Uh, but in any case, uh, we were separated and so I ended up staying the night. Instead of going home, she had moved in a basement. Ended up getting hammered at this, at this, uh, St. Patrick's Day party. I had, I had, uh, Put on my man makeup, my camouflage, green paint, right? And put on my fatigues, my jungle uniform. To play around and some people thought it was funny, some people thought, whatever dude. Uh, and so I ended up in this conference room with, with a couple of other scientists. Uh, who weren't program managers, they were on the support staff. Uh, way smarter than me by any stretch of the imagination.

• 2:43:28Speaker 00

  And they started, I had this book in this conference room and it was Corso's book. And they're like, you don't believe that, do you? And I was like, well, wait a minute. So now I'm, now I'm kind of attached to them. Now I'm gonna, we're gonna have a little exchange here. And I built up the case that DARPA was what Corso's original. Um, section under Jomo Trudeau became. That, that DARPA ended up as the conduit to break up all the component technologies. And distribute them throughout the wonderful free enterprise.

• 2:44:11Speaker 00

  Free market, uh, economy of the democratic United States.

• 2:44:16Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating because DARPA was founded around what 57, 58 or something?

• 2:44:21Speaker 00

  1958, it was right after, it was allegedly the response to Sputnik.

• 2:44:25Jesse Michels?

  Ah, but you're saying maybe it was also a response to this, uh, army guy, uh, Corso.

• 2:44:33Speaker 00

  All I'm saying.

• 2:44:34Jesse Michels?

  Giving some anomalous material to dole out.

• 2:44:36Speaker 00

  If you read Corso's book.

• 2:44:38Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:44:39Speaker 00

  And you read the history of DARPA, there are some really interesting.

• 2:44:44Jesse Michels?

  Any other, any other reasons to believe that? Any other correlations you can talk about?

• 2:44:50Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, there's a little smoke. Uh, it's not the dark black. There's flame is going to ignite any minute, but, but something that struck me when I first reported in was. Fuck, I'm.

• 2:45:07Speaker 00

  I'm a nug. Yeah, I got a master's degree in math and computer science from, you know, it wasn't probably upper tier in academia, the Colorado School of Mines. Wasn't super well-known, but in certain circles, it's very highly regarded. So, okay, but I don't have a PhD and I certainly don't know anything about the acquisition world, you know, how to contract or let and all the rest of this. So as soon as I showed up, I asked my boss uh, to go to this six-month-long program manager course to learn how to manage a program before I start doing it.

• 2:45:51Speaker 00

  And he dismissed me out of hand right off the bat. Um, and he said, you don't need that. This is just going to be OJT. It's on the job training. And I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute. That doesn't make sense to me because I know everybody in all the regular national labs, Air Force Research Lab, Army Research Lab, Navy Research Lab. If you're a uniformed scientist, you have to go through this certification process just so you don't mismanage the taxpayers' money. You've got to figure out how to go through contract evaluation and what's the source selection board comprised of and and you've got to learn what you can commit to and what you can't commit to.

• 2:46:36Speaker 00

  And, and he's just going to blow that off? And then I come to find out that DARPA has a, an exception to the federal acquisition regulations, the FAR. And that is why the other, all the other national labs despise DARPA. Because they had to go through this. You know, onerous bureaucratic process to get a contract out the door. That would take as much as six to 12 months, right? And so it was a nightmare. So it was almost like the concept that you were trying to bring to market was obsolete before it even arrived.

• 2:47:21Speaker 00

  But DARPA didn't have to go through all that. We had a shortcut and we could, we did use, do source elections. But our stuff was out the door. I mean, that's why everybody loved it. And the magnitude of those contracts was, was huge. Right? So at that time, late nineties, a portfolio of, of about a hundred million dollars. That in the regular national laboratories, that was a brigadier generals level. That was like a PEO level of management. I had a hundred and thirty million dollars in my portfolio.

• 2:47:59Speaker 00

  Half was robots, half was, was this stealth program that was canceled a, a month after it, it became, again, for no reason. So that was, that is consistent with what Trudeau told Corso to do.

• 2:48:17Jesse Michels?

  Well, do you think?

• 2:48:18Speaker 00

  Get the money out there.

• 2:48:19Jesse Michels?

  Do you think cancellation for no reason points to, uh, some sort of backdoor to some of these legacy UFO programs? Where you figured a certain thing out, you start working on it and then all of a sudden it?

• 2:48:31Speaker 00

  Again, no flame.

• 2:48:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:33Speaker 00

  But this is super heavy, thick smoke.

• 2:48:35Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:48:36Speaker 00

  Two thousand four.

• 2:48:37Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:48:38Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm, uh,

• 2:48:42Speaker 00

  I'm a consultant, uh, working back for DARPA, getting paid way too much money again. And I turn on the, the evening news and there's Katie Quirk.

• 2:48:55Speaker 00

  And she shows this video clip that she claimed to have received from Al Jazeera.

• 2:49:06Speaker 00

  And it shows a convoy of tanks somewhere in Iraq, I think maybe up near Tikrit.

• 2:49:17Speaker 00

  And there's a Humvee, no, the lead element in this convoy was an Abrams M1 tank with like a plow on the front that was supposed to be able to deflect IEDs. So IEDs were just really becoming a big threat. And so a tank could run over an IED and nobody would die, right? So the tank's in the front and they're coming, they come on this kind of a serpentine route through this village. It's a compound. A lot of, a lot of the Middle East has small walled compounds. And there was no gate, it was just open. And this tank comes screaming through,

• 2:50:01Speaker 00

  and I think it's followed by either another tank, but behind, I don't know if there's another tank, maybe it's a Bradley fighting vehicle, an armored personnel carrier. And then behind that is two Humvees. I just remember the Humvee in back. So then it sort of screeches to a halt. There was no acoustics, but I could, you know, from my own time playing with tanks myself, I could almost hear the trucks grinding, screech to a halt, and it rocks a little bit. And then she is narrating the video and she says, now watch the right side of your screen. And the right side of the screen is this pixelated image that kind of, the only reason you get your attention, she's cued you to look over there, and it's fuzzy. It's

• 2:50:44Speaker 00

  like pixelated, fuzzy. And it comes moving along, along this wadi, this ditch just outside the compound wall. And then it gets close to the tank, and then it's just a blob. And then as it maneuvers up onto the, to the front of the tank, it's clear that it's two limbs.

• 2:51:12Speaker 00

  And then two other limbs show, and this blob climbs up onto the tank and down into the gunner's hatch into the people. And she plays it like three times, slow motion.

• 2:51:28Jesse Michels?

  cephalopod invisibility?

• 2:51:30Speaker 00

  I'm like, holy crap.

• 2:51:34Speaker 00

  So that's why my program was canceled. Somebody was already doing this.

• 2:51:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:51:39Speaker 00

  That's what I thought.

• 2:51:40Jesse Michels?

  Well, sometimes I think DARPA, like RFPs are like, we would love this to theoretically happen, but it's like, we're already, we already know a lot about this and we're just gonna give you a little limited information set and you can, you know, we'll see what you can do with it or whatever. So there's some sort of, and then I think it's original, maybe adding to the point that it does have to do with the UFO stuff. Uh, one of the original projects was the Defender project, which was, uh, you know.

• 2:52:07Speaker 00

  I'm not familiar with that.

• 2:52:08Jesse Michels?

  I believe it was like, the beginning of drones back in the day. And you even have this story, uh, this guy, uh, who was a lieutenant commander in the Navy, we spoke about him last night, Robert Luker, and Townsend Brown finding this green fireball material in Connecticut.

• 2:52:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:52:28Jesse Michels?

  And it seems to be decaying rapidly and it, um, he thinks that maybe it's barium titanate and, uh, Project Moon Watch and, uh, Blue Book both want custody of it, but Brown just flashes his credentials, says, no, it's mine. And then he seems to coordinate with Robert Luker on this. And this is again, 58, so it was right when DARPA had gotten started. And I think Luker was a part of DARPA back in the day. And it was maybe even called ARPA then, or yeah.

• 2:52:57Speaker 00

  For a time DARPA was called ARPA. Uh, the idea was, let's get the D out of it and let's, you know, um, pieces broken out all over. Let's, you know, um, swords into plowshares this for a little bit. And then somebody decided, oh, we better put that genie back in the bottle and make it defense again. So, you know, that's, that's the yin yang, you know, the, the sign wave of, of politics and so forth. But, you know, I don't, the reason I'm bringing this up is I certainly don't want to divulge anything that is gonna put us at risk.

• 2:53:31Jesse Michels?

  Of course.

• 2:53:32Speaker 00

  But, um, but what's interesting about that is, is that the claim was that it was Al Jazeera.

• 2:53:37Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:53:38Speaker 00

  That, that had sent this in.

• 2:53:40Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:53:41Speaker 00

  Right?

• 2:53:41Jesse Michels?

  Oh, so they were trying to out.

• 2:53:43Speaker 00

  It makes me wonder. All right. You just, you just don't know. I mean, is this part? But here's the thing, you know. The science as we know it.

• 2:53:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:51Speaker 00

  Uh.

• 2:53:51Jesse Michels?

  But just saying we have the capability is not, you know, that's not so bad.

• 2:53:55Speaker 00

  I mean, here's the thing is if you, if you can bend spacetime.

• 2:53:59Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:54:00Speaker 00

  You can bend photons.

• 2:54:02Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:54:03Speaker 00

  To, to come around the object and exit the same exact way. And that's your invisibility cloak.

• 2:54:09Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:54:09Speaker 00

  So if you can bend spacetime to the point that you can develop a warp drive. You can make yourself, it's inherent in that capacity, that technology. And all you need is enough power.

• 2:54:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:23Speaker 00

  To do it. So, so what takes it off of everybody's, you know, books, off of everybody's blackboard.

• 2:54:30Jesse Michels?

  Very dense, it's a power limitation.

• 2:54:32Speaker 00

  Is the limitation of the power. But if you have enough power and in Lou's book.

• 2:54:37Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:54:37Speaker 00

  He shows the warp bubble that he and Hal Puthoff discussed.

• 2:54:40Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:54:41Speaker 00

  And so, and even talk about, and so it's a little bit of a, it's a little bit of conflict within the same pages.

• 2:54:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:48Speaker 00

  Because at the one point he's saying, look, this is a threat because these things are splitting two F eighteen s.

• 2:54:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:55Speaker 00

  And, you know, that is a threat to national airspace. We can't have these things moving around, blah, blah, blah, and colliding with our, our vehicles. And I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let's, let's back up or, or move forward, depending on where you are in the book.

• 2:55:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:10Speaker 00

  And let's look at this warp bubble.

• 2:55:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:11Speaker 00

  You specifically make a case.

• 2:55:14Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:55:15Speaker 00

  That who's ever in this vehicle can slow time down.

• 2:55:19Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:55:20Speaker 00

  Right? It's just like, it's, it's relativity. Edgar Mitchell measured it on his watch.

• 2:55:25Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:55:25Speaker 00

  Right? And so for them, it's child's play.

• 2:55:30Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:55:31Speaker 00

  Right? It's like everybody else is, is covered in molasses and we walk right around them. So there is no possibility.

• 2:55:39Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:55:40Speaker 00

  Of a collision.

• 2:55:43Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that Edgar Mitchell had anything to do with legacy UFO efforts? You know, he's the Apollo fourteen astronaut who came back from the, on his way back from the moon. Had almost like a conversion experience and then delved deep into consciousness and it was very high conviction in aliens. And yeah.

• 2:56:02Speaker 00

  Well, I've anecdotal smoke here.

• 2:56:06Jesse Michels?

  What's that?

• 2:56:07Speaker 00

  I have anecdotal smoke.

• 2:56:09Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:56:10Speaker 00

  I was diving on the Aquarius reef base with a NASA flight surgeon who remain unnamed.

• 2:56:19Speaker 00

  And somebody while we were riding, it takes like three hours to get out there from Key Largo. And I don't know if it was right then or when when we were down inside the base, but somebody asked him about this upcoming.

• 2:56:37Speaker 00

  Reunion of Apollo astronauts. And some, I think he suggested. That nobody wanted to have anything to do with Edgar Mitchell.

• 2:56:52Speaker 00

  And it was like he was ostracized. And he, the the flight surgeon was was all about it. He was, he was taking their side against Edgar Mitchell. And I'm like, what the, what is all this? More from Kelly's Heroes Moriarty, what's with all the negative waves, right? I don't understand why, why that, but I got the impression. That inside the astronaut corps. There was this agreement that you don't talk about Fight Club. Right? You don't talk about. The ETs that we have all seen, right? Again, speculation, but that's what I took away from that.

• 2:57:38Speaker 00

  Story that he told, it was either in the base. Or while we were riding back to Key Largo on the way back. That he told that story and that has always stuck in my head.

• 2:57:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:50Speaker 00

  That was circa 2000, I think it was the summer of 2008.

• 2:57:54Jesse Michels?

  Well, yeah, James Fox, great, you know, UFO documentarian almost had, well, is Buzz Aldrin's sister. Buzz Aldrin, obviously, second person to walk on the moon, along with Neil Armstrong. And he apparently would tell his sister that not only did he see a foo fighter in Japan as a fighter pilot, but that he. Saw UFOs, you know, on the way to the moon. And James Fox followed the guy all around the world. Eventually, like, you know, they were in Monaco together and he was about to interview him and Buzz Aldrin said, you know, what would my testimony ever do? Not denying that he had seen UFOs, but like backing out last second, you know? And he's also, I don't know, there's some interesting stuff there. So I, that's fascinating. Final thing I want to get into with you is you have this fascinating theory.

• 2:58:40Jesse Michels?

  What's fascinating in that you've sort of, you know, made very clear to me is that there are all these UFO crashes pre Roswell that are pretty well documented. And not only, you know, in Lombardy in Italy, the one that Dave Grush talks about, the Magenta crash, but ones in the US and Cape Girardeau being kind of a famous case of that. And you track those UFO crashes to some of the high-powered radar capabilities that maybe were developing at the time?

• 2:59:08Speaker 00

  Well, so, um, the, between February of 2014 and September of 2014, I was without a job, waiting for the Air Force Human Resources world to bring me on board. And I was enormously frustrated because I had already extended by six months. I had to take a leave of absence from graduate school to take care of my mom. And so they knew that I was gonna graduate. And I'm wondering, so in this six months, while you're waiting for me to defend this

• 2:59:51Speaker 00

  dissertation, why aren't you getting whatever you need to do so that as soon as I graduate, I want to get, I want to get to work? So I had seven months, six months to just, so I ended up diving deep into this literature over here. So I come across the Cape Girardeau case, um, which essentially is a scenario where something crashes in a farmer's field in Missouri, um, Cape Girardeau. And, uh, the, the weirdness about it was that there was bodies, small diminutive bodies

• 3:00:32Speaker 00

  that a reverend or a priest was asked to come deliver last rites to because apparently one of them was still alive. And so the account of this is primarily from the priest's story of this. And, uh, initially there were firefighters and then military folks showed up. So on my drive across country to report into, uh, Air Force Research Lab in Dayton, Ohio.

• 3:01:05Speaker 00

  I stopped in Cape Girardeau, had some time to kill, didn't need to be there for, for a couple of days. I was ahead of schedule. And so I stopped in and became familiar and looked, walked the ground and so forth. And then it occurred to me that I was, I was only about a five hour drive, depending on how much lead is in your foot, from there to Wright Patterson. And then it dawned on me that, well, if, if something was interdicted in the vicinity of Wright Patterson, and if it was traveling fast enough, it, it could have crashed right

• 3:01:48Speaker 00

  there. And so I had read Corso's account and a lot of other accounts beyond Phil Corso. Stanton Freeman wrote a book, investigated a lot of Roswell, a lot of folks. Don, oh, I'm drawing a blank, Don Schmidt, and a lot of folks that, that really, and so there was, there was quite a bit of evidence that maybe radar played a role in it. So I could easily imagine a few years earlier, right? At before World War II was spinning up, I know what R and D is like pre-warfare, right? Because that's what DARPA does. And I'm imagining,

• 3:02:34Speaker 00

  uh, folks trying to improve the latest breakthrough in technology. But it was a sensor. Radar was a sensor. It was not an anti-aircraft anything. And so I could easily imagine folks just cranking up the power as, as high as they could, not to shoot anything down, but to extend range. And in the process of extending range, unbeknownst to me, unbeknownst to them,

• 3:03:05Speaker 00

  This invisible thing, this guy you can't even see. Next thing you know, that thing's wobbling and it crashes. Four or five hour drive away. And so, uh, I have no trouble believing that that is what occurred, not just in Cape Girardeau, but maybe in Italy as well. Because Marconi was involved in, you know, when you look at the.

• 3:03:31Jesse Michels?

  Where, where was Marconi? Was it north, northern Italy?

• 3:03:35Speaker 00

  Uh, no, well, Marconi was a, um, I think he was a, uh, an electrophysicist early on, right?

• 3:03:45Jesse Michels?

  I, I know, but I'm wondering, cause the crash was in Lombardy in northwest, northern Italy.

• 3:03:50Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 3:03:50Jesse Michels?

  Cause I'd be curious where he was working.

• 3:03:52Speaker 00

  That would be, that would be a wonderful.

• 3:03:55Jesse Michels?

  Research.

• 3:03:55Speaker 00

  Research project to see if there were any radars within a five hour drive of there.

• 3:04:01Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. Oh, wow.

• 3:04:03Speaker 00

  So that would make sense, right? Because this was the advent of radar technology early on. And so it, it, what makes sense to me is that someone within the, uh, Army Air Corps, right? Cause it's still Army at that point. Uh, realizes, holy crap, if we're going to start cranking up the power, we gotta make sure that, that if we shoot anything down, it doesn't land in an urban area. So let's move this whole fricking arrangement out to the middle of desert somewhere. White sands would be a natural place to do that, right? And then we're cranking up the power again.

• 3:04:46Speaker 00

  And the next thing you know, we shoot down a flying saucer, happens to be during a storm. Right? So maybe it was lightning, maybe it was the radar and the lightning. I think, who knows?

• 3:04:56Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:04:57Speaker 00

  Um, but that's, that's the smoke of speculation around that. That makes sense to me. It connects the dots.

• 3:05:05Jesse Michels?

  John, what do you want the world to know? And where do you hope things go from here on the UFO disclosure front?

• 3:05:12Speaker 00

  Uh. I just launched a website to host a couple, a few books. What's the website? And by the way, every 55% of the proceeds of those books goes to PTSD treatment for either veterans, law enforcement, firefighters, whether or not it's a direct result of the 20 years of warfare after 9/11. That's the robotics book. That's what that is dedicated to. And the abduction book that I'm gonna present the thesis to you for, that goes to experiencers, especially military experiencers. I want to get them treatment with either hypnotherapy

• 3:05:56Speaker 00

  or whatever to help them deal with that trauma. So it's more than the tithing that folks typically do at church. I feel like it's gotta be a bigger chunk, right? More than half. So anyway, the underlying thesis of that book is just to fight fear. So the website is fearfighter.net, I think is what we have, and it's just starting up. So we should be able to accept pre-orders for the book on that. But the basic thesis of the book is

• 3:06:31Speaker 00

  abductions are the elephant in the UAP room. It is the reason for all the secrecy. Because lights in the sky isn't scary enough. That's not gonna result in the destruction, the collapse of society. Even divulging that there are some beings on these vessels, these vehicles, that are living beings, or maybe they're biological robots, but we have their footprints.

• 3:07:06Speaker 00

  On the ground, Socorro, New Mexico, 1964, J. Allen Hynek saw them? And that's what flipped him. Uh, into, into believing that these, at least that they're a beings. Where they're from, who knows?

• 3:07:25Speaker 00

  So, none of that's scary enough to justify harming fellow military folks to keep it a secret.

• 3:07:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's ridiculous.

• 3:07:36Speaker 00

  It has to be too scary. And what is scary enough for me to forgive everybody in the legacy cabal that's, that's been harming our folks? Um, and, and mistreating our own service members. This is what I'm blowing the whistle on. Like I said, I've never been read into anything.

• 3:07:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:07:59Speaker 00

  But I know that they have been tortured and mistreated and separated. The corrosive nature of this compartmentation is denying our military personnel the resilience that they deserve. Because the best way to deal with PTSD is to talk about it with each other. And yet, what did they do with Terry and Toby? Split them, reassign them, you can't talk to each other. What, what did they do with, with Mario Woods and Michael Johnson? Same thing.

• 3:08:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we don't even know where Michael Johnson is.

• 3:08:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, you, you see, it's replete throughout. And so AFOSI.

• 3:08:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:39Speaker 00

  For me to forgive Richard Doty and all those folks.

• 3:08:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:43Speaker 00

  That.

• 3:08:43Jesse Michels?

  This is Air Force Office of Special Investigation.

• 3:08:45Speaker 00

  Air Force Office of Special Investigation.

• 3:08:47Jesse Michels?

  Run rampant throughout all the stories where it's, they're clearly part of kind of suppressing these, these stories.

• 3:08:53Speaker 00

  Right. And arguably were instrumental in Paul Benowitz's suicide.

• 3:08:59Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:08:59Speaker 00

  If, if you dive into that, uh, whole case. So that's horrific behavior. And so it has to be something enormously compelling for me to forgive them. So in a manner that I am willing to forgive my parents for demanding that I partake in the Santa Claus conspiracy. I want the government to admit that they could not protect us from the abductors.

• 3:09:29Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 3:09:30Speaker 00

  And that's hard to do, and I recognize that. But suck it up, world leaders.

• 3:09:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:35Speaker 00

  This is why you get paid the big bucks.

• 3:09:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:37Speaker 00

  That's what guys used to tell me.

• 3:09:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:40Speaker 00

  Hey, boss, that's why you get paid the big bucks. Sucks for you. But you gotta admit, when you've screwed up.

• 3:09:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:47Speaker 00

  And then, I'll be willing to entertain amnesty for you. Rather than stringing you up for the murders that you either, either inspired, or at the bare minimum, condoned, in trying to keep this a secret. So that's the underlying aspect. And the, and the key is, the notion behind Fear Fighter is, look, the best way to deal with fear is not to say, stay all warm and cozy in your cocoon of false belief. You gotta get out of that cocoon.

• 3:10:27Speaker 00

  Educate yourself and choke out that fear like a frickin' MMA fighter. You gotta wrestle it to the ground and choke it out. And the best way to do that is to educate yourself.

• 3:10:38Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:10:39Speaker 00

  So you don't have to be Lou Elizondo, or David Grush, or Carl Nell, you don't, or Jay Stradnor, any of those folks. You don't have to get right in. There is an abundance of literature that I am claiming overlaps huge.

• 3:10:57Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:10:58Speaker 00

  And so, I, I know these guys get frustrated with me, because they're like, how come your jaw isn't dropping too? There is nothing that you have told me, even post 2017.

• 3:11:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:11:09Speaker 00

  That I haven't already read before.

• 3:11:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:11:11Speaker 00

  In fact, I could probably make your jaw drop.

• 3:11:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:11:14Speaker 00

  With some of the stories either.

• 3:11:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:11:16Speaker 00

  Right?

• 3:11:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:11:17Speaker 00

  And so that's my message, is fight the fear through education and awareness. And what trumps all of this is what the bug, Dr. Bug, told me, which is, we can't take your soul. And so.

• 3:11:35Speaker 00

  Life after death is a scientifically proven fact. And so even if you get, you get grabbed by these guys and they rip you to shreds, there's gonna be some pain, but they ain't gonna get your soul. And you might come back around and be empowered to do the same to them. But you shouldn't because you'll learn from that mistake that love is the answer. It's just like Jake Barber said, that's the answer. And so I'm calling for ontological relief, but you gotta come clean first and admit that

• 3:12:17Speaker 00

  they, that, that you can't defend this or, or admit that, well, this reverse engineering stuff, yeah, we've been doing it, but it was for the right reasons because we wanted to defend you and now we can't. And I think that's why this trickle has really opened the faucet and it's a turn at a time now. It took 80 years, you know, and now it's, it's really opening the faucet. And I think it's because the reverse engineering has been successful enough.

• 3:12:48Jesse Michels?

  You do?

• 3:12:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:12:49Jesse Michels?

  You think we can fly these things?

• 3:12:51Speaker 00

  I don't know about that. I don't have any.

• 3:12:53Jesse Michels?

  You think it's, but modern aerospace has benefited greatly, like, you know, a lot of our top of the line aerospace, you know, or stealth fighters or whatever.

• 3:13:04Speaker 00

  From, from the, the brilliant minds that I was blessed to interact with at DARPA, I, I had no reason to call Ben Rich a liar.

• 3:13:16Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Wow. Well, what a beautiful note to end on. I, I really appreciate you, John. This was awesome. A lot of fun.

• 3:13:23Speaker 00

  Thank you. And thank you for the risk that you have accepted on behalf of your fellow humans.

• 3:13:28Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:13:28Speaker 00

  Because what you're doing is really, really important.

• 3:13:31Jesse Michels?

  Well, I appreciate that.

• 3:13:32Speaker 00

  That's part of that education.

• 3:13:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:13:34Speaker 00

  Right?

• 3:13:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:13:34Speaker 00

  You're stretching those minds. It's just like, it's just like any athletic endeavor.

• 3:13:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:13:39Speaker 00

  You gotta stretch.

• 3:13:40Jesse Michels?

  You are too. It's a team, team stretching effort. Well, thank you.

• 3:13:45Speaker 03

  Para los grandes, para los chicos, para los bajos y los altos, los pacifistas, los valientes, para los optimistas y los pesimistas, los que valoran lo de adentro, para los que están lejos, los que no vende lejos y los que no vende cerca, para los introvertidos y los extrovertidos, para los que piensan y los que hacen, para los que nos mostraron el camino. Coca-Cola, para todos. Compra una Coca-Cola en una tienda cerca de Usted.