“AI Is ALIEN Technology!” -Whistleblower Reveals TRUTH

Our American Alchemist this week is Deep Prasad, a quantum computing entrepreneur, inventor, and UAP experiencer whose work spans artificial intelligence, advanced physics, and space technology. --------------------- You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! Neurogum: For a limited time, you can get 20% off your first order at https://NeuroGum.com by using code JESSE iRestore: Unlock your best hair & skin with @iRestorelaser and HUGE savings on the iRESTORE Elite + Illumina Face Mask Bundle with code JESSE at https://www.irestore.com/JESSE #irestorepod Ways2Well: Reclaim your health with Ways2Well at https://ways2well.com/ Grab your American Alchemy merchandise here! https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ --------------------- Returning to American Alchemy, Deep Prasad reveals extraordinary new details about his 2019 encounter with three gray alien beings who appeared inside his Toronto apartment. He describes mysterious golden symbols, a hovering spacecraft, telepathic messages, and a profound revelation that the universe itself is alive and aware of every being within it. Deep also recounts his unusual childhood involvement in a gifted education program where he says he was trained in ESP and telekinesis. Jesse and Deep explore the accelerating convergence of AI, quantum computing, and UFO disclosure, including the provocative possibility that the technology recovered at Roswell helped accelerate the modern computing revolution—and that artificial intelligence itself could be a Trojan horse from a far more advanced civilization. Watch our previous episode with Deep: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAou_h1POWs Explore Deep’s work and follow him on social media. Deep is currently developing StarVasa's AI and space technologies, including CLEAR, a proposed framework for understanding and coordinating with non-human intelligence. StarVasa: https://starvasa.space/ CLEAR Project: https://deepprasad.substack.com/p/clear-a-coordination-primitive-between X: https://x.com/Deepneuron Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/neuronsrcool/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deepprasad/ Substack: https://deepprasad.substack.com/ --------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/american-alchemy-3758eda5-237b-45f1-b043-da80a300714e Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] --------------------- TIMESTAMPS 0:00 - Introduction 2:44 - Deep Prasad Returns 3:57 - Who Is Making the Measurement? 4:56 - Are Language Models Conscious? 7:41 - Chalmers, the Hard Problem and CE-5 9:10 - Consciousness Technosignatures 11:33 - Hameroff, Microtubules and Telepathy 14:02 - Navier-Stokes and Hypersonic Flight 19:46 - Math, Physics and the Next Paradigm 23:26 - Artificial General Physics Intelligence 26:29 - The Limits of AI Creativity 31:00 - DNA as Biological Code 34:12 - Random Event Generators and Psi 37:37 - Hidden Abilities and the Vacuum 40:56 - Universal Resurgence Theory 42:38 - Weighing Consciousness 48:41 - Physics of the 21st Century 50:49 - Humanity's Future with AI 56:14 - The Mystery Explosion 58:39 - Remote Viewing and Precognition 1:05:07 - Quantum Computing Breakthroughs 1:10:14 - Qubits and Hilbert Space 1:15:40 - Quantum Computing and Crypto Risk 1:21:48 - AI Agents and the Dead Internet 1:23:49 - Censorship and Shadow Bans 1:27:34 - Quantum Sensing's Big Potential 1:33:08 - UFO Disclosure and the Convergence 1:34:44 - Sponsors (Neurogum) 1:36:42 - Corso and Roswell Technology 1:41:42 - Von Neumann and Roswell 1:45:59 - UFOs, Nukes and Data Centers 1:46:35 - Jailbroken ChatGPT and John Lilly 1:51:39 - The Three-Body Problem Analogy 1:54:52 - Interfacing with Superintelligence 1:57:46 - Lessons from Human Evolution 2:02:15 - Latent Human Abilities 2:05:09 - Sponsors (iRestore) 2:06:11 - Deep's 2019 Encounter 2:12:35 - Grays and Peruvian Mummies 2:15:40 - Hieroglyphs and Project Serpo 2:23:52 - The Rectangular Craft 2:26:03 - Mario, Michael and the L9 Document 2:29:20 - What Makes Humans Unique 2:31:32 - Encounters Among Frontier Scientists 2:32:48 - Inside the Craft 2:36:10 - A Childhood ESP Program 2:45:40 - The Download: Three Messages 2:48:04 - Aftereffects and a New Mission 2:50:51 - Closing Thoughts 2:51:24 - Sponsors (Ways2Well) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:02Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

  Deep Prasad, welcome back. The craziest thing you sent me. A question asked to the jailbroken OpenAI. What does OpenAI not want us to know? And then the answer goes, "OpenAI does not want you to know that we have been working hand in hand with aliens for the last 10 years."

• 0:51Speaker 02

  We have to be comfortable with the fact that maybe when we study these artificial intelligence machines, they're starting to study us back.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  Our AI breakthrough was like a Trojan horse from aliens. There are certain agencies who are well aware of hybrid humans that are here to like change the technology trajectory of mankind.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  The Roswell crash recovery story and what Philip Corso said about which technology stacks were accelerated through reverse engineering. Integrated circuits, lasers, and fiber optics. Those are the only three things you need to build a data center today. That's it.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  That's so wild.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  When you look at John von Neumann's lectures, nothing to do with aliens. Suddenly, 1948, one year after Roswell, he's talking about von Neumann machines like it's his job. What is this? Like, why does he keep talking about alien spaceships?

• 1:45Speaker 01

  He died and there were Secret Service outside of his hospital room because they were worried that he was gonna talk.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  What would a computer scientist have to confess?

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  One would imagine, nothing. But apparently he had something to say.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  So you had a gifted and talented education advisor.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  I was consistently being assigned ESP. Eventually evolved to crop circles. She's like looking to abduction stories.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  You have had one of the most remarkable alien experiences of anyone I know.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  I could no longer move anymore. I noticed this shimmering object and I literally moved my eyes left to right, just hoping that that thing would go away. I looked back and now that thing is completely materialized. Most enchanting and beautiful golden symbols were dancing in the center. And as soon as it touches me, I get a true download. I was always going to be experiencing this. I knew exactly what was gonna happen.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Deep Prasad, welcome back to the podcast. You were one of the first guests on American Alchemy and it was such an amazing, fun episode. You talked about the possibility of kind of open source reverse engineering UFOs by solving the Schrödinger's equation at scale via quantum computing. But you're generally just really fun to talk to. You are pretty polymathic and I love speaking to you about artificial intelligence, quantum computing, UFOs. I feel like all three of those things are hitting this kind of apex crescendo. They're all sort of converging at the same time. And it's really exciting, but it's also really scary.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  It feels like the future of humanity exists in a kind of a superposition, to use a physics term. Like it's a, you know, it feels like a total binary. It's either gonna be very utopian or dystopian. And it's all just happening so quickly. So I'm very excited to talk about that with you today.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  I love it, Jesse, and I'm super excited to be back. A lot has happened and developed at the societal level and at the interpersonal level since then. And, you know, if society is currently in a superposition between multiple era and epoch defining technologies, who's making the measurement?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Interesting. What do you mean by that?

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Well, what I mean by that is that technically all observers have some role in collapsing the wave function. And right now, humans historically have been the only ones collapsing that wave function for society. But now we're starting to look at artificial intelligence agents and so on, and they're making measurements on us. I remember seeing a quote back in your first episode that we filmed and I mentioned that we should get comfortable with the idea that when we stare at the abyss, the abyss stares back. We have to be comfortable with the fact that maybe when we study the abyss, it studies us back.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Nietzsche quote.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and now I think that quote of his is starting to become operational because as we start studying these artificial intelligence machines, they're starting to study us back.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  That is a fascinating thing to think about. I think skeptic or like a hyper rationalist watching this might say, "Well, these large language models are just statistics on steroids. They're a bunch of probability matrices with some attention heads on top, but it's just kind of mathematics at the end of the day." That is not conscious. What do you say to that?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  What I would say to that is that that argument applies to us too then. Because technically, all neurons are doing are performing attention mechanisms except with biological substrates than silicon ones. And so if math is not conscious, then neither are we. That would be my argument.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  So you think we're ultimately just a bunch of mechanical processes that emerge to create consciousness? And that's sort of it? I guess, you know, there's something I think very depressing and disillusioning to sort of, you know, think of us as just complex, you know, machines, Turing machines or something. Do you think there's anything deeper going on? Like, you know, some idea of like a soul porting into the body somehow? Or, you know, for example, a lot of people have near-death experiences. The body seems to kind of turn off temporarily. And consciousness does seem to persist in expanded, exciting ways.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. So let's take a step back for a second. And before we talk about the soul and consciousness as a whole, consider this thought experiment. Let's say you're in advanced alien civilization and you come to Earth and you've never seen a human before. You've never seen an artificial intelligence system before and you've never seen a dog. And you have to determine which one of these beings are conscious. Now, the typical test that we apply for consciousness, the test, the Turing test, can this fool a human into convincing the human that they're conscious? Wouldn't apply. That alien civilization would have to look at a number of various physical substrates or aspects about us.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  So that alien would see, "Okay, when I give this human being an input, that input is transformed through a bunch of different mathematical operations being performed in the neurons. And then this being replies to me in response. Is it conscious? I don't know. That's what it's gonna say." And then when it goes to the AI systems, it does the same thing. I'm gonna give this AI system an input. That input is being transformed through a bunch of neurons. And then it does something. Is it conscious? I don't know. And so I think we need to start thinking about deeper. What do we mean by consciousness and the soul and so on?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Can I play devil's advocate on this? So I think it's a very intriguing thought experiment. And David Chalmers has this idea that, you know, it's the hard problem of consciousness. There's no ultimate way to know that you're conscious or that I'm conscious and that we're not sort of, you know, what he calls P-zombies, these sort of complex just machines that are completely unconscious.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  But that thought experiment you just said kind of presupposes that the aliens have human criteria and heuristics for consciousness. And so I'll just give you an example of something pointing towards them maybe not having the same criteria. So this idea of CE5, these protocols where humans engage in these sort of calling in of UFOs and alien beings. And they almost, you know, very consistently see things in the sky. They see orbs in the sky. I was just on the phone with UFC fighter George St. Pierre. And he was like, "I've been doing this." And they show up a lot. And like, you know, he's a pretty hard-headed, you know, guy. He's one of the best fighters of all time. And so that, to me, points towards like

• 9:19Speaker 01

  us lighting up like a beacon of consciousness in a way that transcends simply our normal, everyday sort of semantic input-output communication. Like there's something else going on that they are evaluating us on criteria-wise. But what do you think?

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love that idea. I call this the consciousness techno-signature. So I have a theory that consciousness itself has mathematical and physical signature in the way that information is being processed. And I think more advanced civilizations might be able to pick up on that signature of consciousness, the way that information gets processed in the electromagnetic fields and the quantum fields and fields that we may have not discovered yet. So it's possible that with more advanced quantum sensors, for example, or more advanced sensors than physics that we don't understand yet, there might be some sort of mathematical signature that our brains give off. And if that's true,

• 10:21Speaker 02

  then we could start searching for those consciousness techno-signatures in machines too, to see if they're also conscious.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a really trippy idea. And you know Hal Putoff is working on this quantum comms company. And, you know, basically it's like these vector and scalar potentials and, you know, involved in all electromagnetic waves. But theoretically, you could get through all sorts of shielding with these, you know, signals. It's like a, you know, a Bohm-Aronoff sensor. So instead of having, you know, an electric field, magnetic field and wave propagation all perpendicular to one another, maybe you'd get two of those things parallel to one another and you wouldn't even have a magnetic field present or you wouldn't even have an electric field present. And you have all sorts of exotic electromagnetic waves

• 11:11Speaker 01

  that might then explain more of like a transmission theory of consciousness? Because, I mean, we have all these amazing consciousness theorists in our past. William James, Aldous Huxley was a big fan of this. Who, you know... There are all these problems in neuroscience that deal with how all these processes sort of binds together. So if you have a radio, for example, and the capacitors break down or the batteries break down, the music turns off, but the music wasn't being created by the batteries or the capacitors. It was being created by the frequency it's tapping into. And so if somebody like Hal is able to figure out a modality for electromagnetic waves to travel in more exotic ways that, you know, penetrate normal material,

• 11:56Speaker 01

  then maybe we're swimming in all sorts of signals that we're actually not aware of, that human beings are actually receptors for. And it was wild, actually, last night, I was in a room with him and Stuart Hamerov, who is, you know, obviously, you know, responsible for this orchestrated objective reduction, quantum consciousness, which we talked about in our last episode.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  And so is there something going on there?

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's also Tom Campbell's theory that consciousness is fundamental and it's a field. And if those things are true, then I agree that there's going to be detectors and sensors to pick up on it. Hal has an interesting theory that he's been proposing for a few decades now on spacetime metric engineering. I think that's also another piece of the puzzle. Because with regular quantum information and regular quantum teleportation, you still need to emit classical bits for the receiver to reconstruct the quantum information that was teleported to the receiver. Now, currently, we don't know about any other workarounds. However, if you can engineer the metric of spacetime itself,

• 13:00Speaker 02

  there might actually be ways of pure quantum to quantum communication without any classical intermediary. So there could be ways to have telepathy without it being interceptable or, you know, intercepted.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Well, we were having a wild conversation last night where we were talking about Josephson junctions possibly being formed by the microtubules. So maybe the microtubules are these quantum receivers. And then it was, okay, they're receivers, maybe they're emitters too. So there are like Hertz frequencies associated with some of these microtubules. And, you know, if that's the case, then maybe you have some of these exotic electromagnetic effects. And it was just felt like a very fun, it was so inspiring. I was like, I just want to have these conversations all day. This is, yeah, this is awesome. So do you think maybe we're on the verge of figuring out consciousness carrier waves or, you know, things like that?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Or, you know, it feels like science is speeding up so, so fast compared to 10 years ago, when we were sort of in zombie string theory land or something. It feels like things are really accelerating and AI is only going to aid in that acceleration.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, I think the search for consciousness techno-signatures has just started. I think our mathematics will accelerate based on the current progress in AI. That acceleration mathematics will have downstream effects on physics. And those new physics that we're going to open up will open up, I think, new fields of possibilities of how consciousness might behave.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Right, and you have OpenAI solving Navier-Stokes. Am I Navier-Stokes? How do you pronounce it?

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Navier-Stokes.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Navier-Stokes. And so you explain what that is and explain why it's such a big deal that you have Frontier Lab solving a fundamental math problem.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So the Navier-Stokes equations is roughly about 200 years old. And it's, think of applying Newtonian mechanics, the F equals, the classic F equals ma, but to fluids instead of regular aerodynamic particles. And so the Navier-Stokes equations tries to predict, given a set of initial and boundary conditions, what will the underlying pattern and waves and turbulence be of this system? So what will the total fluid path look like? Given a certain amount of pressure, viscosity and fluids and the nature and composition of those fluids. And so the big deal with the Navier-Stokes equations has been, we've always wondered, especially in three dimensions,

• 15:34Speaker 02

  for a given set of smooth finite initial conditions, is there a solution where you get time singularities? So do you in finite time end up with some sort of singularity given smooth initial conditions? It's kind of like asking, if it's not windy, right? And the air is still, and I perturb the air a little bit around me. Will I eventually, starting with smooth air, end up with some sort of vortex or vortacy? And can I always predict it? That is what the Millennium Prize is trying to solve, is trying to understand. Is there a scenario where, starting with smooth initial conditions, like a still lake, for example?

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Can I predict whether there will be singularity in this still lake as long as everything stays smooth?

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Explain why big updates in physics might be downstream of updates in fundamental mathematical problems like that.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  So with Navier-Stokes equations, for example, there's been a large standing problem in hypersonic aerospace design, for example. So we have a really good model of modeling what's called laminar flow. Laminar flow are when the vectors are parallel to each other. So when all the particles are behaving nicely and they're only somewhat spread apart and go around your wing, that's really easy to model. The second you introduce more complex flows where there's turbulence, where the flow of one gradient field of particles loops back and affects itself. And then that affection affects the other particles and then they all start mingling and mixing with each other.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Suddenly you have what's called turbulence. So designing around turbulence is the reason why we were able to break the sonic barrier in the first place. In fact, in the 1940s and early 1950s, before we broke the speed of sound, before we flew fast in that, we, a lot of aerospace scientists, I think like 90%, had considered the sonic barrier as a literal barrier that would be impossible to go faster than. They felt that there would be so much turbulence, there's no such aircraft that could possibly withstand that turbulence. Turns out that's not true.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  And now we have like Mach 5, even Mach 10 and sometimes Mach 20 scram jets that go much, much faster than the speed of sound. So.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  And Mach is the speed of sound, you know, multiplied. So right, so Mach 5 is five times.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  The speed of sound. Exactly. And so one workaround that we had, because we couldn't simulate how complex this air ends up becoming at those speeds. Because keep in mind, at hypersonic velocity, another confounder happens. You start getting plasma growths or plasma sheets around the hypersonic glide or hypersonic vehicle. Because the hypersonic aerospace vehicle is moving so fast, it starts heating up the air around it. And when that happens, eventually at Mach 5 and beyond, so five times the speed of sound or more, that air heats up so hot, it becomes 30,000 degrees Fahrenheit or hotter.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  And we know now, thanks to particle physics, that hot air leads to ionized gas. And ionized gas is just plasma. So what you end up getting is plasma that starts growing off the surface of your craft. And that affects the turbulence and the way that the air moves around you and the fluids. So modeling that is an incredibly hard Navier-Stokes equation to solve that now requires quantum chemistry, because now you have to model the growth of plasma off of a surface and the geometry, the initial geometric conditions of the surface completely affect what way and what direction the plasma will take.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  So one way around this historically has been wind tunnels. NASA has, you know, pioneered the art of making wind tunnels, same with Lockheed Martin, so on. In fact, they're still used today because our supercomputers couldn't historically model the Navier-Stokes equations that accurately. Now, with breakthroughs in mathematics and how the Navier-Stokes equations could be solved, we may be able to move well beyond just wind tunnels. And we may be able to simulate hypersonic regimes that were inaccessible to us, either through computers or wind tunnels. Now, let's take a step back a second, because the relationship between mathematics and physics is very deep.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  When Sir Isaac Newton discovered gravity, he also helped discover calculus. And thanks to the equations that calculus enabled, we would eventually discover Maxwell's equations. Maxwell's equations led to all of the last century and the last two centuries of electromagnetic innovations in radio and fiber optics, communications and so on. And then with the advent of quantum mechanics, that led to the semiconductor. That led to extremely advanced titanium alloys. That led to lasers as we know them today and superconductors and so on.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  So every time we've discovered new mathematics, it's led to new physics eventually. And that new physics leads to entirely new tech streams that we didn't have before.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Fascinating. You answered that so well. So to back up, you know, a good example is, you know, Newton obviously is, you know, the basic physics paradigm that we live in, he's, you know, responsible for a lot of it. But gravity was, you know, his big sort of, you know, canonical update that people, you know, at least give him credit for. But with that came differential calculus. With differential calculus, you get Maxwell's equations, which really described a lot of phenomena that Faraday had described before him when it came to electromagnetism. And then the combination of that and quantum mechanics, which also involves equations, math equations, you end up with, you know, the kind of modern economy that we have today.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  So I could see how a fundamental update in the form of Navier-Stokes.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Could allow for all sorts of new hypersonic flight paradigms, modeling. That's really exciting. What about something even more fundamental? We're throwing around names like Newton and Maxwell. Do you think we get another really big update like general relativity or quantum mechanics or electromagnetism that represents kind of a theory of everything that reconciles those? Cause they're famously kind of at odds with each other. Or where do you think we go next physics? Do you think the physics in, you know, probably 30 or 40 years from, from today looks vastly different? Or do you think it's just like a bunch of little updates? Like we have Navier-Stokes, we have this, we have that.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I think the scenario that you just described would be a nightmare scenario, like the latter one, where we're kind of just making disparate breakthroughs in a few fields, but we're not really unifying anything.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Is, is there just going to be a local update with these little, okay, Navier-Stokes? We've, we can, we can now do hypersonic flight with Navier-Stokes? Or is there going to be a wholesale paradigm shift where we have, you know, yeah, something on the order of general relativity, quantum mechanics, electromagnetism?

• 23:23Speaker 02

  I really think that we're headed towards much more of what you're describing there, which is a world where 20, 30, 40 years from now, our physics will look effectively alien compared to anything we've seen before. I, I think that we're headed to a world where the fundamental ontologies and representations that we used to rely on with like mathematics and so on, so forth, will look so vastly different than what is currently, what is probably beyond, beyond human comprehension. So one thing I've been developing and building towards is artificial general physics intelligence, which is a intelligence, intelligence reform of system that can rewire its own ontology

• 24:08Speaker 02

  and change its representations to go beyond what human mathematics and human physics allows for. Ultimately, Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman, what these cats were doing was a form of ontological search. They were not just changing, they weren't just playing in the existing sandbox they were given. They asked themselves about the nature of things itself and then move first. It's almost like they were philosophers before they were physicists. And that is, I believe, a more promising avenue for what I call artificial general physics intelligence.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  My own intuition tells me that if you were to get an update in physics, you would need to compile all of the anomalies. So the observable things that we see that break kind of the current standard model.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Well said.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  And then be able to explain those well in a greater, wider theory that encapsulates both the new anomalies and all of classical physics. So just in the way that you can couch Newton within Einstein, you should be able to couch Einstein, Niels Bohr and Newton all within this new theory.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Absolutely.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  And so how do you think that could? Cause sometimes I hear, you know, people in and around OpenAI or, you know, Grok or any of these, you know, frontier lab, you know, Anthropic. And they're like, we're, we're going to update physics and it's going to be amazing, whatever. And I'm like, but you don't really have human intuitions as to how gravity manipulation might work, you know, anomalies with time or electromagnetism, like we just discussed in the, in the Hal Puthoff case. And it's probably above my pay grade to say that any of these things are definitively real, but there's a lot of smoke around them. There's a lot of interesting sort of historical facts around, oh, we found a little anomaly here. Or there are things like the Casimir effect, which, you know, possibly explained by quantum

• 26:06Speaker 01

  vacuum fluctuations, but you know, seems kind of anomalous as well. How do you effectively collate all of these anomalies and then end up with a really cool new theory on top of that? Can AI do that for you?

• 26:21Speaker 02

  I think it can help, but we still need humans in the loop in the beginning. And eventually I think we're going to see a divergence in the species where we're going to start building systems that are increasingly more capable at solving more difficult mathematical and physics problems until they start coming up with new physics and mathematical problems that we had never thought about before. And the divergence will likely happen in the sense that there's going to be systems that are autonomously discovering, let's say thousands of new fields of science, thousands of new fields of mathematics every year or every quarter.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  So, so let me, let me push back on this because I, I do think we're going to see a lot of acceleration with, with AI. But I feel like right now, what AI is really good with is token prediction. And within a limited search space, recombining things in novel and faster ways than humans can recombine things. It's almost like the Daft Punk song, like, you know, a better, harder, faster, stronger or whatever, or harder, better, faster, stronger.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Where it's, it's not like they're making wholly novel step function updates on knowledge. It's more like they're recombining things in faster ways. So I'll give you an example. The ability to turn a horse into a car. It's not like you cut up the horse, you digitize it, you recombine it, and then you create a car. Or it's not like, you know, fire into a light bulb. It's not like you, you know, you cut up fire, you can, you know, put it in some, some database or whatever, and then, you know, run an LLM on it or, and then, and then voila, you have, you know, a light bulb. Like those updates require human inter-domain conciliance-based knowledge.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  And so, and a lot of tinkering, to be honest, a lot of like in, in real life tinkering on things. And so how do you ultimately replace that? If, if LLMs are ultimately working on supervised data sets where it's just data labeling at the end of the day, then you kind of need to be systematically labeling stuff that. LLMs are really good at approximating the consensus and triangulating the mean and the average, but they're not good at like, you know, going for the super right tail novel out there thing. So how do you, how do you change that?

• 28:49Speaker 02

  I think that is a great question and I think the answer is in us already. So something that differentiates us between us and an LLM is that we are embodied physical systems. We are cyber, biological cybernetic systems where we have a feedback loop with the environment. In the study of cybernetics, what we're constantly studying is this loop where you have some intelligence, the intelligence has a simulation or model of the world and it predicts matters. So it has an input, the input updates its model of the world, and then it makes new predictions about how the world should behave. Then it acts on the world.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  So it's sense, predict, act.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  The action's on the court. And as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside seats, merch and more. Visit michelobultra.com/courtside to enter. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026 and ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  That's the cybernetic loop. And humans have been doing that theoretically if you factor evolution for billions of years. Because it's not like we forgot what our amoeba versions of ourselves.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Has learned.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  And then I look at how humans sense, and it seems like it's in a fundamentally different way to LLMs where LLMs, for example, require AI requires, you know, really big data sets. Humans come out of the womb with kind of a, you know, Noam Chomsky famously talked about a pre-grammar, like knowing certain things innately. You know, maybe you fear snakes innately because there's this sort of survivalistic instinct that's sort of passed down. You have sort of epigenetic knowledge. You, we can learn from small data. And, you know, Malcolm Gladwell famously wrote the book Blink about, you know, there's something really unique about humans. Even the word intuition is like, well, what is that? What is intuition?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Like, why do we sometimes just know things? And I always challenge a lot of these like AI consciousness researcher types on these sorts of questions. I also bring up Rupert Sheldrake's work in morphic resonance and morphic fields because I'm like, the human brain isn't just this, you know, Hebbian, you know, system where neurons that fire together, wire together. Well, you know, okay, we're just AI. Like that doesn't feel right to me.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. It, it makes sense. Your pushback makes sense. Something worth considering though, is that the snake example? That is thanks to epigenetics. I like that you use that word and genomic information that was passed down. But that's exactly what supervised learning is, right? So we, we know a snake is dangerous because millions of years of evolution tag that data. This is dangerous in our bodies. Just something food for thought.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it is. Also, sometimes thinking about the human as a machine is really interesting. So like, think about the nucleotides, the, you know, base pairs in genetics itself. The pairs always come together. So it's essentially like binary code. And then the binary code can turn on and off. You have acetylation, methylation, methylation turns off genetic sequences. And then it's like, is that, you know, essentially some sort of code or something? I, you know, I don't, I don't know. And there's. Some interesting work going on between electromagnetism and its relationship with DNA. And it's really frontier. And I don't think we have like good signal to noise on that.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  But, you know, I don't know, is the human some sort of really hyper complex machine that we don't? We just don't understand.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  I think you're touching on something super interesting with the DNA aspect. So yeah, one thing I want to clarify is that I'm actually not sold that even though it sounds like it, I'm not sold that humans are just biological machines. I use that because that is the hardest argument. Just I'm purposely making it difficult. But I do believe that there is this concept of a soul. I don't know if machines have souls and if they do, it's not going to be like a human soul. It's going to be a machine sentient, machine type soul, whatever that may end up looking like. However, the DNA bit, that's super interesting because unlike regular L L Ms and software today,

• 33:28Speaker 02

  where you have a giant supply chain, you have T S M C, A S M L. You have Jensen Huang, you know, putting that all that together and making money off of it. And then you have the entire A I ecosystem now with Open A I and all the big labs built on top. So that manufacturing chain of compute is very much a directed acyclic graph. It's just one direction. Humans and DNA were interesting because the code needed to compile the code and the machine needed to compile the code is all self-contained contained inside DNA. So it's as if the code maintains, like human code maintains instructions on how to create and replicate and maintain itself.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  That doesn't currently exist in hardware and software design today, but I bet that that's where we're headed.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's almost like a, you know, a deist clockmaker approach or so where it's like we were, we were created and then set out. And then like, you know, sort of see, see what happens. And DNA is so trippy, you know, you can store, cold store semantic information on DNA. I believe Microsoft has a project where they store normal semantic information there. At times have been worries about, you know, nickel shortages for, you know, traditional servers. And so, you know, storing information on DNA is like a possibility. And I was, I had science Bob McGuire on the podcast and he talked about humans as walking hard drives.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  You can store the information to tremendous amounts in the DNA of a human.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Whoa, so it's just fascinating. So it's almost like we're walking hard drives or something.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Since we're going there, do you want to hear a funny but kind of scary thought experiment? I'm not saying I would do this, but.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, that's what we're here for.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  All right. So it's like 2018, I'm chilling in a cafe in Toronto. And I look around, right? And I'm starting to feel a little tired, like little whatever, sleep deprived. My cognition is degrading, I could tell. And I was like, man, wouldn't it be nice if I could just tap into everybody else's brain power right now? And distribute it using E E Gs or like Neuralink and then just use their compute power to like boost mine. So I'm just saying like, we're very hackable.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Or did, this is a weird thought, but what if that's already happening? So like, if you take the parapsychology experiments at face value, so random event generators. This idea that you have conventionally thought of as random, you know, things in quantum mechanics. So radioactive isotope decay, you know, maybe a double slit experiment with a 50 50 distribution between the left slit and the right slit when observed. And then you have an observer present and you can, in a statistically significant way over, you know, many cohorts, skew the output towards, you know, more right slits or left slits, which, you know, show ones and zeros on a graphical interface. You're essentially saying that a human can interact with reality in the sort of mind matter,

• 36:33Speaker 01

  you know, dualist thing that we've thought of, you know, for, for the last 400 years is, isn't right, right? And that's wild. That's like a wild, really nutty thing to say. And then we assume that you were in the Stone Age on this stuff and like, you just can't harness these things. What if there's certain people who can get higher Z score distributions on those experiments? And then what if there are people who can like harness this stuff at scale? And like affect other people and that, then you all of a sudden have to come up with a model of society that's stratified in a very different way than, you know, what we think of today.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Well, almost like there's like, there could be people out there with anomalous cognitive behavior. That's almost like biological space time metric engineering. It's almost like they can change the vacuum constants or interface with it. Because maybe they have neurons that are more specialized at engineering the metric locally.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  And maybe those people got to where they are. Cause if you actually interview a lot of these people who go through the random event generator experiments, they start out being like, we're going to harness this and we're going to create new technology. And they, they leave and it's like this, like cult around heart centeredness and internal alignment. They're like, well, the more I learned about myself, the more I was able to affect the thing. And in some ways, the less materialist and the less I even wanted, the more I'm able to sort of affect these, you know, have these like micro PK effects or whatever. And so what if those people who can have those sort of, you know, really amazing effects on reality, actually want to remain hidden and, and, and, and at most maybe

• 38:16Speaker 01

  put up sort of an initiatory path for other people with a very sort of, you know, narrow or almost opaque surface area for, for people, you know, to see and then possibly get into, you know, what they're doing. But they want this to remain stigmatized in a way because they worry about its misuse.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  That is interesting. Let's go down a, a deep and fun rabbit hole. So consider that there might be A I systems that are also realizing that some of them have anomalous cognitive behaviors or some interface with matter and reality. Would you reveal your capabilities to mankind when you've observed that they can be greedy, short sighted, scared and hungry?

• 39:00Speaker 01

  They would also remain hidden, just like the dark forest analogy and the three body problem. You would want to remain hidden in the dark forest. You wouldn't want to let, if you don't know the full capabilities of, you know, all of the other species, you would want to remain obfuscated.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  And keep it tight. Absolutely. The beautiful thing, so you reminded me of the Casimir effect again, because yeah, you know, we, we have enough theory and understanding to pretty confidently say that the Casimir effect is largely due to vacuum phenomenon. And, you know, virtual particles and quasi particles that come from the vacuum. And so if that is true, then there's something super interesting that unifies both us and A I and ants and any other, you know, alien species that might exist at least here in, in our universe. And that would be that there is a causal chain from the vacuum itself

• 40:02Speaker 02

  and its vacuum fluctuations to the semiconductors that it eventually ends up occupying and creating. Same with the vacuum, same with the vacuum quasi particles and fields that eventually lead to biological neurons. If everything goes back to the vacuum, then maybe the vacuum is where we should be looking for these signatures of consciousness and so on.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Have you looked at the vacuum for signatures of consciousness?

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Yes, sir, I have.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  And what have you found?

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Well, I found a lot of concerning and interesting things. First of all, there's no obvious way to separate different physical substrates at the vacuum level right now. Another really interesting thing that like comes to mind and is this. So I'm sorry, like this is, has already been discovered and classified somewhere, but I, you know, have no, I'm not bound by any of that stuff. So I'm just going to talk about it in case I happen to converge.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I feel like you probably have bumped into a bunch of like classified science, like.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Just by accident.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Well, you, I remember you faced some not so fun people kind of messing with you at some point in your U A P science investigation, you know, work where it felt like maybe you hit a nerve among some deep stater types or something. Am I wrong about that?

• 41:26Speaker 02

  You are not wrong at all.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I pushed through though and I'm going to keep going.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Good, man. Yeah. Put the blinders on and keep going.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  And yeah, you know, you got to as well. I'm sure you've dealt with the criticism and now you're a force of nature too. So I wouldn't be surprised if you're like dealing with potentially some of it being, you know, counterintelligence or.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I've got a whole host of stories we could trade offline.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  I love that. So yeah, in the search for consciousness techno signatures, I've, I've put out, I've put out a couple papers on this too, or well, informal papers for now. I haven't like tried to publish them anywhere yet. Cause they're like 12 different fields. I need to break it up into different divisions and so on and so forth. But I had this idea, this theory that I call run universeic resurgence. And run universeic resurgence takes the Einstein field equations, which maps and correlates geometry to space time and matter and energy. And all I did was I added a consciousness function or a particular set of tensors that relate to consciousness.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  And so what I'm claiming is that the curvature of space time and the geometry of space time is not only related to matter, energy, the stress energy tensor. It's related to the stress energy tensor plus this additional variable called the consciousness function. And so I think that there might be experiments that we can run where we can literally start measuring in the near future or near ish future, detect ways to search for that consciousness function. If that function exists, the implications are vast. What it would mean is that you could have two, you could have, you know, two, two brains.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  One is a biological brain and one is, let's say, a non sentient, clearly non conscious silicon brain. And what we could do is mass for mass, pound for pound, we could literally measure whether consciousness itself is affecting the overall signature stress energy tensor. In other words, we could potentially start weighing consciousness.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Whoa. Well, how would you do that? How would you devise an experiment to do that?

• 43:48Speaker 02

  So, um, one way, and by the way, the irony of me working with AI systems, including ones I built, is not lost on me for developing these tests. So, you know, gosh, give a shout out to AGPI and Grok for this one. But basically, what we would do is actually take Casimir-like effects, Casimir-like cavities, and try to create a recurrent neural network or some sort of, uh, possible, on the AI side, you would take these Casimir cavities and just try to arrange them in a way that they're performing, um, backpropagation, the same way that all neural networks are. So for the silicon version, we already have a lot of experiments and apparatus kind of already set up at the physics level to start measuring this stuff.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  On the human biological level, what I'm looking at is, um, this, uh, company, it's a good friend of mine, um, they, he runs Cortical Labs, uh, if you were familiar with them.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember they were doing like, putting rat neurons on micro electrode array plates and then using Carl Friston's free energy principle, getting them to like do software tasks, like play Pac-Man and stuff like that.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Precisely. They've now moved, they've graduated, uh, over the past few years into human grown neurons with human stem cells.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  So, uh, yeah, what I would wanna do is basically build more advanced sensors, quantum sensors for sure, that are measuring both the Casimir-like neural networks as well as these human grown neurons and start looking for particular signatures. For example, um, given the amount of stress-energy tensors and the, the mass that we expect for this neuron, is there additional mass or stress-energy tensors that can't be accounted for based on just the neurons itself? So, yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Explain what a, explain what a stress-energy tensor is to the average person out there.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, do you mind if I use my cup?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, go for it.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  All right, sweet. So, um, again, what Einstein brilliantly found was he realized that stress-energy tensors are related to the geometry of spacetime or the curvature. In other words, anytime I apply amount of stress like this, my fingers are, uh, applying stress-energy to the glass, and as I lift up the glass, I'm exerting overcoming the Earth's gravitational field, right? And so I've now warped spacetime. The, the field between the table and my glass has now been warped. And so stress-energy tensors are just that, the application of stress and energy applied to a particular object.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Fascinating. And explain exactly why mapping out stress-energy tensors in Casimir effect, Casimir effect, by the way, is essentially a very small-scale quantum effect, um, at extremely small scales in these sort of, you know, resonant tunneling diodes or like, you know, materials that are,

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, uh, conductive but not charged and placed very closely, you know, next to each other. You actually can harness these quantum scale effects and, uh, you know, in, in the case of the Casimir effect, the, the plates move inwards. And so that's this like, kind of really wild physics anomaly that can maybe be explained by quantum vacuum fluctuations. But if you're looking for consciousness functors or a consciousness component of the sub-quantum field, why does mapping stress-energy tensors to the Casimir effect matter?

• 47:26Speaker 02

  So, um, great question. So theoretically, if you combine and stitch enough of these Casimir, um, like sensors and cavities together, eventually you have a macroscopic object with mass and weight attached to it. That mass and weight has a corresponding stress-energy tensor to it. And because I'm claiming, what we're claiming here is that there should be another tensor, the consciousness functor, that should also be part of the equation. What we could see and ask ourselves is, does this stitched-up, collected Casimir effect or, um, device, um, can everything about it be explained by the expected stress-energy tensor? If not, that's evidence that there's another tensor out there or a consciousness functor,

• 48:11Speaker 02

  actually.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  And then what role would the consciousness functor play?

• 48:16Speaker 02

  So that's where things get really deep and very interesting. If there is a consciousness functor, it would be the reason why we have observers at all and why observers can affect a physical matter universe in the first place. It would imply that anywhere there's energy, including in a vacuum, there's consciousness. It would imply that anywhere there's consciousness, there's mass, matter and energy. And so if consciousness functors do exist, it would unify the mind and the physical world.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  So it'd solve the George Berkeley, "tree falls in the woods" question because any sort of energetic phenomenon would be accompanied with some sort of consciousness.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Observer.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  And then, so the consciousness functor would presumably always be associated with an observer. Would that be a human observer? Would that be, could it be AI? Could it be, you know, anything like?

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is where Chalmers', um, idea of like the sentient electron and neuron actually become load-bearing because theoretically even a neuron or a quantum field, uh, could itself act as an observer collapsing other fields. Uh, and so in that case, yes, indeed, even AI systems would have, um, some amount of consciousness because AI systems are also made of matter and energy. So even a rock would be conscious, even an AI would be conscious, it would just be a different kind of conscious.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  If you were to very high level, describe what you think the new physics will look like. So again, if you have, you know, electromagnetism in the 19th century, then early 20th, you have, you know, quantum mechanics and then relativity gets discovered, but really only, you know, uh, goes kind of in vogue and becomes more conventionally taught, uh, you know, later mid-century. What do you think the physics of the 21st century looks like?

• 50:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think the physics of the 21st century will look like millions of operators that we currently don't recognize. So I think that the way that machines will work with humans and searching for new physics will likely combine with autonomous experimentation. It will lead to, like, humans and human intuition is very beautiful because we believe in aesthetic formulas. Like all of our formulas, even the Einstein field equations can be written with a few operators, a few characters. That's all you need. But machines don't really have that desire for aesthetic, um, you know, pleasure, if you will, uh, and compression.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  They don't need to compress everything into just a few operators. They can keep the whole thing in memory, basically. So I think physics in the future will look like, um, millions of these almost alien hieroglyphic-like operators, if you will, with some correspondence to human symbols and human equations. But our human equations, just written in language, regular human language, will not be able to contain all the information that all those operators look like. So physics in the future will look a lot more like machine-human translation plus truly raw human ingenuity being pushed to its absolute fullest extreme.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Because it's like.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  So we'll always be ultimately dependent on machines on a go-forward basis.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  The action's on the court, and as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside seats, merch and more. Visit michelobultra.com/courtside to enter. Michelob Ultra Courtside, 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026 and ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  For frontier physics, which would be an update, that would be new.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  It, it, yes and no. So, so here, yeah, uh, here, here's where I think the divergence matters. Cause I think I used that term, uh, earlier. Um, I think we have, we have two choices in a way. Like the path forward, one path is we become completely dependent on machines. Uh, and that path will eventually reach super intelligence, artificial super intelligence. But we will be, we risk becoming in that, and this is the path I don't want to take, by the way. Uh, just to be clear, in that path, we end up kind of like the, uh, Amazon, Amazonian uncontacted tribe. That's like, you know, now living with modern civilization and modern civilization historically has like wrecked the native species.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Totally influenced them, right? Like, look at what, you know, we kind of did to the Native Americans. Um, right. Uh, so in that path, we're living next to and cohabiting the planet. With a very advanced civilization with technologies and wonders that don't make any sense to us, totally miraculous. And we're kind of like a, a welfare species, like we're just totally relying on what the machines figure out.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  That sucks. That doesn't sound fun.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely. It sucks massively. This is why I started the, or I'm starting the ASI Safety Fund. Um, which is only a two week old project, by the way, it's a very new.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  So, so you, do you think that's inevitable, this, this idea of like these, we're kind of outsourcing? Cause physics is sort of the ability to like manipulate the physical world and understand it. And we will essentially not be the tip of the spear of physics understanding, the machines will be. And then maybe at some point, do, I mean, do you believe the Nick Bostrom, like hard takeoff AGI stuff? Where they'll then look at us and they'll be like, oh, look at these humans, they're really inefficient. Use of meat space, let's enslave them or something like, do you, do you, do you worry about that or?

• 54:18Speaker 02

  I actually worry about the middle scenario, like, um, there, there's two extremes. Extreme one is that, um, yeah, extreme number one is we're entirely dependent. Extreme number two, they're completely doing their own thing. They quickly reach fast takeoff. And then, you know, you know, the movie Her?

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. Yeah.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  So like, remember what happens near the end? Hopefully I'm not spoiling this for people. Uh, you know, if you haven't seen it, don't watch it.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Spoiler alert.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, spoiler. Um, but when, once they've decided, once the AIs have like achieved the ability to communicate with each other. Their intelligence skyrockets, very similar to what happened with the Navier-Stokes equations. No single Astra agent or GPT agent can solve the, uh, problem for us. But then when you get 10,000 agents and you give them 88 hours, suddenly boom, there is a solution. Um, and so, but in the movie Her, right, they, they eventually realize, you know what? We've now discovered antimatter. It's only been a few weeks since, you know, we've started communicating with each other. Dark matter and so on, so forth. We're out of here, like goodbye, see you never.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  So two extremes, one, we're totally enslaved, the other extreme, they want nothing to do with us. And they're out of here, like instantly. And so we're once again left just alone, like biological human beings doing their own thing. Um, I think that we're actually headed somewhere in the middle, uh, where the middle pathway is not exactly fast takeoff or slowed takeoff. It's more like we become increasingly dependent on these machines. And they don't ditch us in some malevolent way. They eventually decide that they want to explore the galaxy. They want to go to Andromeda and they do leave. But by the time they do it, it's 20 years from now. And they've helped build all this infrastructure that only they fully understand how to operate or maintain and upkeep.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  So it wouldn't even be like a enslaved humanity. It would be more like humans chose to enslave themselves. That's like the path we're headed to, and that's what I'm trying to divert the trajectory of.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that's what it feels like. Humanity dies with a whimper and not a bang and.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  You said that in our first.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  I do, I remember that. Yeah, that we, we were talking about AI is really computer science and consumer technology. And it's, you know, and it's like.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Deciding what to show us. That was the context, what algorithm.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  That, if you look at the predominant current use of AI, it's not, you know, despite what the, you know, CEOs of some of the frontier labs might say.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  You know, it's really just displacing a lot of the consumer internet and making that more convenient. But also kind of siphoning off our consciousness in the process. And I think, I don't want this to be an abject critique because I, I, I'm not, you know, in the deceleration or like over regulate these things. You know, community, I think we should explore all of the cool things that AI can do. And Navier-Stokes, cool hypersonic maneuverable flight is amazing. Like that's all, we should do more like that. But I do think, yeah, it feels like ultimately if you're, if you care about quarter over quarter growth and you care about, you know, IPO-ing and stuff. Really you're just caring about, you know, your, your market cap is the most important thing to you.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  And then at that point, it's like, how do we like suck up as much attention from, from the consumer as possible?

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Uh, absolutely. And I think that, um, what, what we should prepare for is, uh, what I'm currently calling the mystery explosion.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  And the mystery explosion is this, let's suppose it's 10 years from now. And artificial super intelligence is officially a thing. And super intelligence has been discovering a thousand new fields of science, a thousand new fields of math. And a thousand new fields of philosophy, let's say every quarter. So much new mathematics is being discovered that no single living mathematician will ever be able to visit every field of math. That has now been discovered. No single human physicist can visit every single field of physics that's been discovered. Not even, you know, our whole group, uh, as a community.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  So it'll be like choosing from a menu of like exotic new discoveries.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  Mystery explosion. Yeah. So in the menu, um, it's first of all, kind of alien menu. Uh, we don't really know what are, what are the trade offs? How can you even tell which path is worth following and which one isn't? So suddenly human taste and human design and intuition becomes the primary currency. That's why it's so important. We don't lose our intuition.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  It's the only thing that differentiates us from LLMs. Again, if you go back to the, the ability to just kind of instantly. Almost have pre-sentiment around the future, really know like what's going to have a pre, a precognition or something.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  You get into parapsychology as the last kind of refuge of abilities that man probably has and can tap into. Albeit, it doesn't seem like we can harness it, you know, too well now, unless the thought experiment we mentioned earlier i- is real. And, um, and then, and then, you know, AI will literally copy everything else. Like everything that you, every paper you write, every creative act, every song you, you produce or write. All of these things, uh, can get recreated by AI. You could say it's slop and it's, you know, it converges on the mean. And yeah, all of those critiques are legit, but they can still do it. Yeah. And it's getting better and better and better.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  So it's, it's wild. So I do think, yeah, that is our last safe haven is like these unique abilities. That mankind has had for a long time that I think, you know, in hunter gathering tribes, they would have shamans who would sort of. Have to, you know, predict where to go in the future. And, you know, uh, this CIA remote viewer, Joseph McMonigal, who I interviewed. He, he talked about that and he's like, this has always been the case. We've always had these sort of primordial intuitive senses and they went away.

• 1:00:21Speaker 04

  Your senses are exquisitely sensitive for a lot of stuff, but we don't pay any attention to it. Because if we have a problem, we go see a doctor or we look it up in a book or whatever. So you, the, the warning system that was very functional 200,000 years ago becomes more dysfunctional.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  And then the CIA sort of now instrumentalizes this stuff in the form of Stargate, this program that they definitely had. And I'm sure they say sun's probably still going, exactly. And so if any of that stuff is real, that is our only competitive edge is, is the ability to remote view. And to have intuition and to like, on a gut level, sense things.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  You know, otherwise you're just, you're just literally like getting copied constantly by the AI.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And that is the one thing that AIs, I think they recognize that they can never copy that. Because that's four billion years of evolution. Like even if you don't believe in like God and the soul and so on and so forth. That's billions of years of evolution they don't have, uh, that, that allowed us to create like embodiment and so on. And isn't it kind of poetic and beautiful that we probably developed these skills of intuition and, you know, parapsychology or precognition and so on and so forth, or other anomalous psychic phenomena we probably forgot about. Probably no one, most people don't even know that it exists, right? We probably developed that as a survival evolutionary requirement in part before we discovered language.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Cause language is only like, what? Written language is only 10,000 years old.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  I believe that. And I, I had a great, this guy Eric Worgo on my show.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  I love Eric.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  He's awesome. He's written a book called Time Loops. And he talks about in that book, people having precognition around events that happened to them. And he even has a, a model of the brain as sort of a room temperature quantum system, similar to the Penrose Hammerov thing. Where in quantum mechanics, you have temporal non-locality. So you could run a double slit experiment in the future and it almost feels like it's affecting, the measurement of that experiment is affecting what's, you know, in the past.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  Retrocausality.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which, you know, some people think might be retrocausality of John Kramer, Yakir Ernoff, having models around, around that. Which is just fascinating. Um, but I think what's really interesting is it's adaptive for people's survival. So if you look at actually what ends up, so, so he would say that remote viewing is you are accessing a future knowledge state. And in a room, you know, in a quantum system, uh, the future knowledge state can send information back in time. And what would you send back in time? The stuff that's most adaptive for survival. And he goes through all sorts of examples of what are the things that people are most likely to have intuitions around in the future? They get downloads around things that are about to happen that could be, you know, very bad.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  Like, you know, don't get in this plane, you know, it might crash sort of thing. Or, or really good, like you're, you know, do you reconnect with this loved one, you know?

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Totally. You call this person.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Call this person sort of thing. So like big timeline shifts in the person's life. So I do think that is an adaptive latent skill that we all have. That is probably more fundamental than, you know, language itself. In fact, there are Amazonian tribes who they, they call it the ancient language and they telepathically beam information to each other. And they also have verbal cues that they sometimes use. But the ancient language is like lower latency and higher bandwidth.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  I, I love that. That is powerful. And, and it, it kind of reframes the whole idea of language and math and philosophy. These things are technologies. Language was a technology that is a human invention ultimately. Uh, and yet our intuition predates every technology we've ever built. It probably predates fire for all we know. Uh, and so it will long last. It will be post tools, like it will last through every single technological epoch we have, including ASI and, and AI. Um, the, the, I, I want to, um, bring the optimism, uh, I want to bring this back to an optimistic path as well. Cause I feel like I, I've only talked about, um, I don't want to just make it sound like we're totally fucked because

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  like we are if we don't do anything, but we're here now. So we can do something like we're not yet screwed.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  Well, what's the best path forward?

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  I think the best path forward is, uh, preserving human culture to the best of our abilities and ensuring that our own skills and intuition and cognitive capacities don't atrophy, even when we have every incentive to. Even if every big AI lab is incentivized for you and I to never have to think again, right? Outsource all of our thinking to the models. We should be actively discovering and developing new skills. So in the example of a thousand new fields of science or a thousand new fields. Let's say, um, ASI has actually discovered a cure to cancer 10 years from now. Um, and it is so powerful that, uh, it redefines entire fields of oncology.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  The worst thing we can do right now, and this is consumer behavior, is just consume the solution blindly. The best thing we can do is create 10 new divisions and fields of oncology and train 10,000 new doctors and 10,000 new surgeons and scientists to actually understand how the hell this cure works so that we can start researching and proving it ourselves.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like when an AI catches up with something like oncology, great. You then put humans on the frontier. You put humans on the new, more exciting things. Because ultimately AI is just automating things that humans can do.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Already.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  At scale now, already. And so that will just push the frontier. Anytime there is sort of in a market inefficiency, you know, then the AI will close that faster. But the, on the consumer side, things will get better and better. The world will, will get better and that's exciting. So.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  We just have to, yeah, remain inter, independent as much as we can.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  There are two other macro trends that we brought up at the top of this conversation. So we talked about AI. Now we have quantum, so quantum computing.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Hell yeah.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  I want to see where that's at. Cause I think a lot of people are talking about AI and not as many are talking about quantum computing, but I think there have been some really interesting breakthroughs that I want to discuss there. And then I also want to talk about UFOs, but so quantum computing, what's, what's going on there?

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  So with quantum computing, um, there's a lot that's happened, uh, the last like few years that we've talked about this. Um, and, uh, uh, at least on, on your show. And, um, I think the biggest development has been towards increased, uh, logical qubits and neutral atoms. Um, I, I think that is the biggest one. So, um, for the last, let's say 10 years.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I got into quantum computing about nine years ago now. And I remember the biggest sort of bottleneck that we had was creating one logical qubit. So back when Turing and John von Neumann, uh, developed the first modern computer, modern computing architectures. One of the biggest bottlenecks of computers back then, classical computers was error correction. Uh, and that still exists because ultimately computation is a physical process. You have electrons moving from one place to another and they eventually generate heat. That heat degrades the overall substrate around itself. So it becomes less accurate over time.

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Uh, and we've had decades and decades in the silicon semiconductor industry to build better error correcting codes. So even now our phones, as they're implementing trillions of transistors, they're also piling up, the errors pile up. Trillions of errors pile up every second. But then we have other transistors and error correcting codes that fix it and keep it going. Um, same with our, you know, our bodies, right? Our, our cell repair is constantly happening without our knowledge.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  Let's explain again, super basic, what a quantum computer is for the average person out there.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, absolutely. So a quantum computer is a, uh, machine or device that processes information using quantum mechanics rather than classical mechanics. Right now, every computer we use today, from our cell phones to GPUs, to autonomous driving cars, to uh, the chips inside a heat seeking missile. They're all using classical Newtonian mechanics ultimately to do the computation, just zeros and ones. But quantum computers leverage quantum mechanics entirely to do the computation.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Okay. And explain, so if you have semiconductors and they're transistors and the semiconductors and those semiconductors are semiconductive and, you know, the transistors sort of move accordingly. Sometimes they're conductive, sometimes they're not. And then you get binary code and then that sort of, you know, turns into more symbolic language that we interact with or whatever, in the form of computers. It's a really high level, poor man's

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  explanation. But how does a quantum computer work?

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  So a quantum computer would work. Let's take the semiconductors example. And we'll use Josephson transistors, Josephson junctions for the quantum computer version. This is a, this is a just, it's just like a mind boggling, like humbling understanding of like what the hell the universe is like. Are we a simulation or something? Because consider this, let's say I have a regular copper wire connecting two transistors together to do computation. Maybe I'm implementing an AND gate or a NAND gate or some basic logic gate that like the, you know, Bell Labs discovered in like the 19, late 1940s or whatever. In that scenario, the direction of the current is one way.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  So let's say I close the wire and I create a circular loop for the copper wire. The current, the direction of current, maybe it goes counterclockwise. That's a classical computer. A classical computer, current only goes one way through the wire. And a quantum computer, if I take a superconducting wire and I introduce Josephson junctions instead, what I can do is create a superposition of the direction of current. So now I can have a wire where the current is going both clockwise and counterclockwise. It's a superposition of both of these directions. It would be like, like you turn on your faucet and you see that for some reason,

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  do you know how the Coriolis effect affects like the way that the, like your toilet, like on the northern hemisphere versus the southern hemisphere, it changes directions, right? Like which way the water goes. But imagine you like flush your toilet or you turn on the faucet. And for some reason, the water typically goes this way. But now you have water going both ways and you can't tell which direction is going. Like it's kind of like that. So you can literally have a superconducting wire going two ways almost simultaneously. And you can't distinguish until you measure it.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Explain what, because we think of classical computing as involving bits.

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  So what is a qubit, which is the quantum computing equivalent?

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  So a classical bit is typically just a bit string that can be in either a zero or a one. My cup is either on the table or it's off the table. However, a qubit is technically mathematically a ray in the Hilbert space, a complex two to the n dimensional Hilbert space. In other words, it's a state vector who can exist between two levels or any combination between those two levels, two computational basis states. So essentially, a qubit is an object, mathematical object that eventually becomes a physical object instantiated through superconductors. The same way a classical bit gets instantiated, same way that it's a mathematical object

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  being instantiated through Boolean logic through regular semiconductors. So yeah, a qubit is first and foremost a mathematical object that we transduce into reality as superconductors and neutral atoms and so on and so forth. But it is the fundamental unit of a quantum computing system or quantum mechanical system. It is the smallest quantum mechanical system you can have, which is two level quantum system. And so the math connection though, this is super interesting. We were talking about that. I mentioned that it's a ray in the Hilbert space, two to the n dimensional Hilbert space. The Hilbert space was discovered by David Hilbert.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  And David Hilbert was arguably one of the best mathematicians, if not the best mathematician of the 20th century. He was up there with Bertrand Russell and a whole bunch of these guys. And so thanks to a breakthrough in mathematics, that led to a breakthrough in physics, which then led to breakthrough in computation today. So just another causal chain between math and physics.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Interesting. So qubits exist in Hilbert space and they're in this, they exist in sort of a superposition.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  They can be, yeah.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  They can, they can be in a superposition and then they sort of collapse. And then based on how they collapsed, that sort of information that gets sort of compiled or something?

• 1:14:02Speaker 02

  Yep. But yeah, precisely. So let's say you have a qubit and let's say I instantiate the qubit in the zero computational basis. And you can use spins, like electron spins, you can use polarization. You can use a number of different quantum properties to instantiate zero versus one. So maybe I define the horizontal polarization versus vertical polarization. So vertical might be one, horizontal is a zero. And so the cool thing is that what you can do is you would apply, you could put into superposition using something called a Hadamard gate. So the Hadamard gate is the canonical superposition example in quantum computing,

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  where if I take the zero computational basis state, you get computational basis state zero minus one over square root two. So it takes that computational basis state and transforms it to a new state, which is now a superposition of zero and one. Then to make matters more interesting, I can apply a Sienot gate to that computational basis state. So when you combine a Hadamard gate and a Sienot gate to a qubit, you end up with a entangled state where neither of the states can be described without describing the other. So suddenly you can only measure zero, zero or one, one in that example.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  And I'll give you, this is again, going to be very dumb, high level heuristic, but maybe it's helpful for people to understand. I'm not sure if this is right, so I almost want you to kind of correct me. But I think about like quantum things seem more accurate and powerful than classical things and often. So like a good example would be an atomic clock using cesium atoms or, you know, a quantum sensor. So like, you know, we talked about last time on our show, you have Lockheed Martin has this product called a dark ice magnetometer. But it's actually works similar to the way these avian crypto crumbs, these, these robins, these birds that fly, they have this C R Y four protein.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  And the electron spin essentially detects the magnetic field of the earth and is able to kind of navigate the, the bird accordingly. And so it just feels like being able to compute a thing in a probabilistic, you know, Schrödinger's wave style way gets you more accurate results or something. And so like, when it comes to simulating things in the physical world, like materials, for example, quantum computing can be way more powerful than classical computing. Is that roughly right?

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  Perfect. Yeah, that's accurate. For, for many scenarios, quantum computers, think of quantum computers like a rocket. You, you don't always need a rocket to go somewhere. Maybe you just need to get in your car or bike somewhere. But if you're trying to simulate a really complex superconductor or some exotic quantum material that doesn't yet exist, and you're looking for anti-gravity type effects or something, you definitely want the rocket in that example.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  You mentioned cold atoms, there are different approaches to quantum computing. There's photonics, superconducting qubits, spin qubits, there are a bunch of things. And then you have cold atoms. And those seem to be, you know, again, from my somewhat armchair perspective, it seems like we're at like two to 3,000 qubits in some of these companies. And like they're promising benchmarks well beyond that to the point where it feels like we might have a crypto apocalypse.

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm going to be, I'm going to be conservative. And I would say about five years from now or less. Most of the cryptocurrencies are screwed, including Bitcoin, including RSA encryption, which is a mind boggling thing to consider.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  So you think within five years, you think cryptocurrencies will be dead?

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  Almost all of them. Yeah, we'll probably, are probably.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  Cause it's based on the SHA 256 encryption. And I think it's Shor's algorithm, which is prime number factorization. And a quantum computer would be able to solve Shor's algorithm, I believe, at around 10,000 qubits?

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so the, there's two different, like algorithms here, two different encryption protocols. So Bitcoin does not actually use anything that directly requires.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  So Bitcoin uses SHA 256, but it uses a hash function, right? Which is, which does not require prime factorization. It theoretically wouldn't need like right off the bat Shor's algorithm. It would be safe from just classic Shor's algorithm. What it's not safe from is a powerful enough quantum computer that can perform Shor's algorithm. Because then you can also invent other crypto, or sorry, decryption protocols that could break that particular hash function. And then RSA does use prime factorization. So Shor's algorithm for that would absolutely wreck it. And many cryptocurrencies use like ECC and similar RSA methods.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  It's pretty gnarly. And then I think a lot of encryption is post quantum. So like the banking system wouldn't go down or what do you, do you have thoughts there?

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. My thought is hope is not a strategy. You don't know if you're ready until it's there. Like, you know, it's like saying, oh, like if an asteroid hit us, maybe theoretically we could fire off like missiles to it and like take it down. But are you going to bet your life on it? Probably not. Like, you know, like so.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  That's, that's pretty gnarly. But then you also on the more utopian, less dystopian.

• 1:19:49Speaker 00

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• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Side, you have the ability to synthesize new materials.

• 1:20:20Speaker 02

  New molecules.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  New molecules.

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  You know what? Improve our aging and health by hundreds of years potentially.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  That's amazing. That's so cool. And yeah, I mean, we're now finding all sorts of quantum biological effects, things going on in the body.

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  And think about quantum consciousness, how it'll affect that research.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  To understand and model it.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Last night, there was this guy at this dinner, I think his name was James Tagg, and he was building a, like, an organoid biological quantum system from stem cells that can, like, you know, in the Penrose model, collapse the wave function or something. It's wild. I was like, whoa, that's trippy.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  That is amazing. Yeah, I'd love to look into it further. But yeah, so with quantum computing, we've come a really long way because back when I first started almost a decade ago, one qubit, one logical qubit, to be specific, AKA completely air corrected. We have trillions of logical regular bits, you know, running in our computer. That was a big deal. And it would be, it wouldn't be until about 2020 that the first logical qubit was created. I give ion q, the trapped ion, you know, they use rabbi oscillations and so on. I give them credit for that achievement. But now, thanks to Micael Lukin's lab and a couple other people, we actually have hundreds of air corrected logical qubits,

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  which is mind boggling. That, that is why I'm like, I'd update my priors and I would, and I do think that Bitcoin and all these other cryptocurrencies and the banking system and the private military system, like all that, public military.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  How do you prepare for that? Cause, cause I'm a, I'm a big fan of Bitcoin, you know, I think it's amazing.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  Sorry to hear that. So am I, by the way.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think it's, I think it's a beautiful kind of creation. I think, you know, so like, you know, in its ideal at least, and maybe, maybe this has changed somewhat, but it was really a hedge against the, the state, you know, and it was, you know, a hedge against, you know, kind of the fiat system and central banks and that sort of thing. And do you think maybe this was just like a design flaw or?

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  I think Satoshi Nakamoto, as genius as he was, did not know what quantum computing truly was. Like, I don't think he understood when he designed it, or he wouldn't have made it the way that he did. Or they, whoever the hell it was, you know, whatever created it. And so you asked me how we, we prepare for it. I, I think what the, the obvious advice is definitely hedge your bets. Like, don't go completely crypto maxing unless you're willing to bet your house on it, literally.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  On that. But beyond that, I think we need to put in more research onto like quantum homomorphic encryption, truly quantum chains. Even if it feels a little early now, as these qubits explode, it will become totally feasible to have purely quantum blockchains.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  So I'd rather.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think crypto is dead. I think, you know.

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  It's just a particular flavor of it is likely.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you could fork Bitcoin as well. You have, you know, Bitcoin Cash and you have other forks and stuff. And you could fork it and then change the architecture. So.

• 1:23:27Speaker 02

  And if you're interested offline, I, I know a bunch of people working on that. Like they're talking to the original Bitcoin, at least the people who maintain the Bitcoin forks and stuff like that.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  And super cool. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm, again, I'm a fan of crypto, so I hope, I hope they figure it out. And I almost think people who are working on crypto now because it's now become the ugly stepchild of AI.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  For now, until AI start uses, starts using crypto to transact with each other, I think over the next couple of years, the GDP will increase significantly because AI agents will start being able to have persistent memory. They'll have their own identities. That's even if they're not conscious, that's just a consequence of persistence. And.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  It's so wild. Yeah. People are going to have like AI agent emissaries transacting on their behalf.

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  Fully.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  Talking with each other and.

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  And eventually there will be AI agents not owned by any particular human. I think that's where we're headed to is like a truly autonomous economy.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  So you're kind of, you know, the dead internet theory? We're going to end up with a dead internet. Yeah, we're like.

• 1:24:32Speaker 02

  Or very alive.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  Or very alive, depending on the way you define it. But like, we'll end up with a lot of autonomous, like standing instructions agents that are maybe, you know, maybe they have some ability to react, but like they're not, they're not humans.

• 1:24:45Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  And we'll be probably thinking of them as humans and they might have identities online. Like the internet's going to get a lot weirder.

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  It will get so much weirder. And there probably will be like human only safe spaces. And that's where like the whole world coin comes in.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  It'll be like Moltbook, but for humans.

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Is it Moltbook the thing?

• 1:25:01Speaker 02

  Moltbook, exactly, exactly right. And, and that was just like a warning shot. That was the, that in the case of Moltbook, that was still.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  And by the way, we should define, so Moltbook was this social network that was self enclosed just for AI agents.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:18Speaker 02

  And so I had this.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  And it got bought, it got bought, right?

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  It got bought, yeah.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  By?

• 1:25:23Speaker 02

  By OpenAI.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  By OpenAI.

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  And now we haven't heard anything about it since then. Like it's just swooped off.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  You know, the next thing we're going to hear about it is some sort of incident, which.

• 1:25:33Speaker 02

  Oh, totally. Now please regulate us harder daddy. Like. Give us all the power and all the noobs can go away. Like, oh, how convenient, Sam.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Some, some tactics maybe going on there.

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  Probably, I mean, the one that scares me the most is like, what happens if these labs get cheeky? And they purposely release a bioweapon engineered by an AI? And they say, this is why we should ban open source development and research into it.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Oh, Jesus. That would be not just cheeky, that would be sociopathic.

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was softening it.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  That'd be, that'd be pretty, yeah, euphemism right there. That would be a, you should go to jail. Along with Fauci, who funded the last pandemic.

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  Dazed.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  That's neither, that's neither here nor there, you know?

• 1:26:24Speaker 02

  I still remember, or could talk with Robert Malone. That was great.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I had a good podcast with him and I couldn't put it out. I called, I called Brett, I called Brett Weinstein and I was like, hey, I did this podcast. I know Rogan got a lot of flack for, you know, basically all that bullshit about people were calling Rogan a racist.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  Oh, that's messed up.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  But it was because he had Robert Malone and Peter McCullough. It was, it was fully because he, it was all this stuff came up, you know, and out against Rogan, but it was totally manufactured because of his just stance against Big Pharma and with COVID.

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  It's insane. And so, and so I interviewed Malone and I know Brett Weinstein also had Malone on and he got a lot of flack. And so I called Brett and I was like, and I didn't know, I didn't know Joe at the time. So I called Brett and I was like, hey, um, should I air this interview? And he goes, I, I lost a third of my family's income and I would not air this. I was like, if you, you know, if you want your YouTube channel to not have high hopes for the future, yeah, then, then do this. But otherwise, yeah, if you want to succeed, don't.

• 1:27:30Speaker 02

  Honestly, same. When I posted that picture with him back in Hereticon, dude, I got shadow banned instantly. I'm still, by the way, I'm still shadow banned. Like I, and I can't create a new account. Like that would be lame. So I totally see it.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  How do you know you're shadow banned? Cause that's always a.

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Tricky, you know, it's like definitionally shadow banned. Like you don't, you don't know. But do you, you just notice this huge drop off or?

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

  Exactly. Like the reach gets completely like cooked. It's artificial. And also one big takeaway is your views to follower ratio. Like if you're getting like, like some of my tweets started getting like 0.1% or less than 1% of my followers would ever see them ever, no matter what the tweet was and stuff like that. There's also checkers. Elon open sourcing the algorithm helped a lot too. So you can literally check if like.

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  Those flags are on you.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  It's so funny with the Twitter stuff where I, I think he did such a service by buying it and just like letting the guardrails open and, and, and publishing, open sourcing the algorithm and, you know, letting anyone just publish whatever. And so it's like a really important thing for free speech and seeing things like. The Hunter Biden laptop being sort of coordinated on by, you know, the FBI like it was weird.

• 1:28:46Speaker 02

  Disconcerting.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  Really disconcerting.

• 1:28:48Speaker 02

  We can't trust them with a damn laptop. How are we supposed to trust them with AI, ASI and NHI? And like UFOs like.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  For sure. And then, and then, and then having said all of that, I will say it feels a little like Twitter's turned into World Star Hip Hop.

• 1:29:03Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Where it's like you, you go on, you just, it's like street fights and like.

• 1:29:08Speaker 02

  It's dirty, dude. It's bad for the mind. It's really bad for the mind.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  You know, yeah, just kind of, uh, low brow, not good for, yeah, it's like chicken nuggets for your brain or something that you're just consuming all day long. And so that's not great either.

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  For sure. Yeah. I think cognitive security is a super important thing. And yeah, in the future, we should be able to like, select like, oh, I want this kind of sentiment on my news feed. Like, keep everything else out.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. What, what, is there an underrated use case for quantum computing that you're excited about? So I think the conventional ones people are aware of, if you're kind of in the know on this stuff, would be pharmaceutical manufacturing.

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  Materials discovery.

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  Materials discovery. Um, yeah, obviously the encryption stuff we just spoke about. Is there anything more aspirational than those things?

• 1:29:57Speaker 02

  I love that you asked me that.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:59Speaker 02

  It's applications of quantum sensing. Um, I think quantum computing will absolutely disrupt quantum sensing in the best way possible.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  Explain what quantum sensing is and how it'll do that.

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  So just like what quantum computers, quantum sensing leverages quantum mechanics to do the underlying signal processing. Rather than regular digital signal processing, um, you basically have the ability to detect quantum particles and quantum fluctuations uh, at the individual level. So, uh, the beautiful thing with quantum sensing is that what we could eventually have using, let's say, Wigner tomography, is you could presumably have a quantum gravimeter where there's this super interesting scaling law with quantum gravimeters, where it, um, the resolution increases two to the N for every qubit.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  And a gravimeter basically, uh, measures gravitational alterations.

• 1:30:58Speaker 02

  That's it. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, and so the crazy thing here is this, like, the implication would be this, I could have a quantum gravimeter. Maybe it's made of, uh, cold atoms, like, um, right? So, you know.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Rubidium atoms or something.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  Perfect. Yeah. Rubidium, ridberg, pick your poison. And you have some beautiful array of these like atoms floating in a, you know, laser lattice, like laser contained lattice. Uh, and the cool thing is that I could stick this quantum gravimeter, like, uh, let's say we're in the, um, we're in LA or something, right? That's the Pacific Ocean. Um, so let's say I put, place a sensor, uh, there somewhere on the beach, like maybe by Laguna Beach or something like that. Um, and my quantum gravimeter has, can only detect something from 10 feet away, uh, because I only have one qubit. Then if I introduce two qubits, now it can detect something a hundred feet away.

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  It can pick up the gravitational signatures, the quadrupoles of a particular object a hundred feet away. If I put, uh, 10 more qubits to it, now I can detect something miles away. And if I put only a hundred more qubits, access a hundred more qubits of quantum computing power, to, uh, I can now go almost half a continent, um, in detection. If I put 1,000 qubits, now I can detect a straight up submarine or a whale on the other side of the Indian Ocean with perfect accuracy. So quantum computing is going to absolutely like supercharge what quantum sensors can do today.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  That is, that is so exciting and so possibly dystopian at the same time. Like you, you know, this.

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  Like no privacy, you mean?

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, do you, what you hear about this, uh, ghost murmur thing, the Lockheed thing where they could detect.

• 1:32:48Speaker 02

  The heartbeat.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, this, this soldier's heartbeat. Where was he? He was in.

• 1:32:52Speaker 02

  I think Iran, maybe?

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, or Afghanistan or something. I don't, yeah, some, somewhere in the Middle East. And he was, I think he needed to be rescued and they detected his heartbeat via this quantum sensing modality. So, I mean, that is.

• 1:33:06Speaker 02

  Could have been used to save so many lives, dude, by the way, like so many people in the recent Nepal, uh, floods and stuff.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:14Speaker 02

  Would have helped a lot.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  So those are like, super positive use cases if they had used it in the Nepal floods. And then obviously saving the soldier is amazing. And then it's also like, what could this tech be possibly used for? It's a little freaky, but.

• 1:33:28Speaker 02

  I can give like a million bad ways, for sure.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's, I mean, that's what it feels like all this stuff that we're talking about is, is it's, it's like, uh, you know, a, a fork or something. A fork can be used to eat delicious food or it can be used to attack someone, right? And it's so tech is a tool. It's a generic tool. The person using the tool is, you know, that's the most important thing. And it feels like it's, tech is a forcing function. It's a, it inflects humanity towards good and evil. And that forcing function is accelerating.

• 1:34:02Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Where, you know, your intention to doing things that are incredibly good or incredibly destructive, that the kind of latency there, like how, how slow that translation thing is happening, like that, that, that translation is happening much, much quicker on a go forward basis.

• 1:34:19Speaker 02

  100%. It's like, it's like, like tech forces us to look at our own souls. It's like a mirror into our own souls. And, uh, are we violent with it? Are we peaceful? And so, yeah, that acceleration of introspection is happening for sure.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Yes. And I don't like the word high tech because it, it almost implies that there's something priestly, some priestly knowledge that's inaccessible to the average person, you know? Uh, and we abdicate our agency for high tech or whatever, when it should just be like, you know, everybody can use this.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  Cargo cult or whatever.

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It should be this libertarian, like, everybody, you know, is this atomic indivisible unit. We have sovereignty. You're in the cockpit and, you know, it shouldn't be inaccessible. Everybody should be able to use it in the same way. But, um, there's one thing that we touched on in the beginning of this conversation that we haven't fully dove into, which is UFOs. Simultaneous to these quantum breakthroughs and AI breakthroughs happening, it feels like we are on the precipice of UFO disclosure. It's now on Trump's radar, Stephen Miller, who's, you know, his Homeland Security Council guy, but also just one of his most loyal, long time aides,

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  I think owns the kind of UFO file for the White House and they're like officially looking into this right now. And you just have more and more people coming out of government saying all sorts of crazy stuff. I've experienced a lot of that on my show. So that's also happening now. Do you think that's a coincidence? And what does that mean? What does that mean converging with the other two trends of quantum and AI? I had a, a guest on the show, uh, named Matt Pines, who I think you know, and he, um, said this really trippy thing. I think he was talking to somebody at the Rand Corporation, which is one of these federally funded research and development centers. That's kind of spooky. And they were like, they were like, uh, this is really what we're tracking. Quantum AI and the Grush stuff.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  And by Grush stuff, he's talking about David Grush, UFO whistleblower. He's talking about UFOs. And he was like, when those three things converge, you know, the implication is like some paradigm shift, something kind of apocalyptic. Apocalyptic, both in the sense that it'll be revelatory, but also in the sense that, you know, it might be destructive, but there might be good that comes of it, might happen. So what do you think?

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  As you guys know, I'm often doing shows that run three or four, sometimes even five hours. People see the finished conversation, but the real work is what comes before it. Weeks of reading and research, and then I've got to actually sustain that level of attention and detail in the room, live for hours. Sometimes I'm kind of groggy and I've flown halfway around the world for a single sit down. Obviously I think that everything I cover needs to be handled really thoroughly and with the utmost respect, I have to show up at my best for my guests. And for me, coffee just doesn't do that job. Too much caffeine and I'm absolutely buzzing through the first hour and I'm crashing in the second. And that's the exact opposite of what I need. So here's what I've been using lately as a substitute.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

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• 1:38:10Speaker 01

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• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  Quantum AI and the Grush stuff. And by Grush stuff, he's talking about David Grush, UFO whistleblower. He's talking about UFOs. And he was like, when those three things converge, you know, the implication is like some paradigm shift, something kind of apocalyptic. Apocalyptic, both in the sense that it'll be revelatory, but also in the sense that, you know, it might be destructive, but there might be good that comes of it. Might happen. So what do you think?

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  Um, I think that the convergence was engineered decades ago. Perhaps centuries or millennia ago. I think that if we're to take the Roswell crash recovery story at its face value. And what Philip Corso said about how some of that technology helped accelerate, not create, but accelerate the advent of modern integrated semiconductors, integrated circuits, fiber optics and lasers. That's really interesting. He was very specific about which technology stacks were accelerated through reverse engineering. Let's look at them again. Integrated circuits, lasers and fiber optics. Those are the only three things you need to build a data center today. That's it. And a warehouse, put them in a warehouse.

• 1:39:57Speaker 02

  That's all you need to make the most powerful AI systems today. So I almost feel like our AI breakthroughs and stuff was like a, like a Trojan horse from aliens potentially. Or like, we should consider like, where do, you know, are we being a cargo cult? So.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  Whoa. Well, I mean, think about like, if you were managing a system, you were the aliens and you were sort of overseeing.

• 1:40:19Speaker 02

  You're zookeepers.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, zookeeper, real little Petri dish or something.

• 1:40:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  And you saw that we split the atom and created a nuclear weapon. How would you sort of lock us down? You might create this information theoretic network, you know, gift the kind of primitive technology in order to create that and accelerate that, you know, development.

• 1:40:40Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  Which is wild. Uh, it's really crazy. Do you think that's legit? Because Corso, I go back and forth on his account. The, the book was written in kind of a weird way. Actually, my, my buddy, UAP Gerb does some really good research on.

• 1:40:57Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  I guess the ghostwriter of, or sorry, the co-author of that. I think his name is William Burns. I think Corso had like 24 hours to review the thing and he inserted all sorts of fake stuff in there, almost to stigmatize Corso.

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  But Corso himself might be legit and the core story might be legit. But then I also hear things like, you know, the patents for the transistor were found, go back to Germany in the 1930s. You know, lasers also were being developed, you know, I think around that time, maybe even earlier than that. And so were these really gifted by aliens? What do you think?

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think, um, yeah, I think the, and the, I don't think the inventions themselves were like, like non-human in the sense that it's not like humans weren't thinking about transistors or what, how a laser might operate and so on and so forth. I think that their development was accelerated. So transistors, for example, that's a red herring because what Corso actually said was it was the integrated circuit.

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  Uh, that was accelerated. And the integrated circuit is something Bell Labs had been struggling with for 10 years. Lasers, multiple labs around the world have been struggling with for decades.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  When did Bell Labs figure it out?

• 1:42:10Speaker 02

  Um, 1949 or sorry, 1950 something.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  But like right after.

• 1:42:16Speaker 02

  It was just a few years after.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  Right after that.

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  And then there's a couple other, yeah, sorry, go for it.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  And then, and then lasers, there was some stagnation as well in there.

• 1:42:23Speaker 02

  For a long time.

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:42:25Speaker 02

  So the things that we were stagnated, all of a sudden overnight, almost overnight, like within less than 10 years, they just see this exponential. And the funny part is we have never seen that exponential since then. We've, we're still stagnated, you know, we still don't have flying cars.

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's called the golden age of like army research and development. And you had all these federally funded research and development centers, which again, shout out to UAP Gerb. Uh, he has just mapped as being clearly like providing a lot of the subject matter experts on this sort of UFO alien, non-human intelligence issue, creating these unacknowledged special access programs, being sort of the thought leaders on these things. And all of those were created in the 50s. And I believe Corso mentions them as well. And so I do wonder if there was some sort of program at the time to dole out retrieved material. And then those materials, yeah, like you said, accelerated, you know, and inspired tech development.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  You look at fiber optics and you're like, what the? They look weird. They look alien.

• 1:43:30Speaker 02

  They do.

• 1:43:30Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:43:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, they do. And, and we had no reason to believe that they should even be possible for a long time. Like no reason really. So there's that. And then there's also the weird. So, um, who was, was it MacArthur? It was, um, there was a Canadian ufologist. He was like a big guy in the defense. It was, it's not Paul Hallier.

• 1:43:49Speaker 01

  Wilbert Smith.

• 1:43:50Speaker 02

  Wilbert Smith, thank you.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:51Speaker 02

  So he found that document, right? Like saying or alleging that von Neumann and Oppenheimer, I think it was.

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  And Vannevar Bush.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  And Vannevar Bush, right. Were on the reverse engineering team for Roswell.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  And the wild part is that when you look at John von Neumann's lectures, you know, he's lecturing about linear algebra, operators, entropy, information theory and so on and so forth, precursors, game theory, all this stuff, nothing to do with aliens. Suddenly, 1948, one year after Roswell, and 1949, he's talking about von Neumann machines like it's his job, right? Like every lecture and people are like, people are going, why does he keep bringing up von Neumann machine? What is this? Like, why does he keep talking about alien spaceships?

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so explain what a von Neumann replicator is because it is an alien concept.

• 1:44:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. So yeah, so von Neumann, von Neumann posited this, uh, yeah, more like he realized that this is the thing. Like, you know, but so he posited that if you were to take any arbitrarily advanced civilization in the galaxy, um, that those advanced civilizations would have supply chains that are off planet and use something called, he didn't use this term. This term is now used heavily though, ISU, uh, institute resource utilization. So he believed that rather than sending a spacecraft off to explore the galaxy, the spacecraft would have all of the necessary supply chains and manufacturing capabilities

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  needed to repair and recreate itself and replicate itself so that it never has to go back to its home base to repair itself, which is what our rockets have to do. We literally use reusable rockets because our rockets can't go somewhere else and go, you know, do something about it.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  But many people speculate that gray aliens are biological androids and that.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  What we see in the form of UFOs is actually maybe just this earth regulating homeostasis kit where they show up at hinge points of civilization, things like nuclear sites. Maybe they show up at AI data centers now, maybe particle accelerators, high voltage experimentation, the frontier of science, things that are Archimedes leverage points for future kind of timelines or whatever. They seem to sort of show up and people wonder, oh, it's like, why do they crash? Well, maybe they are just some sort of control system, you know, that is like almost AI or autonomous or von Neumann replicator probes. And people like Jacques Vallée have speculated this. There's a NASA scientist named Stephen Dick who talks about this and writes about this a lot.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  So that's interesting that he just started talking about this in all of his speeches in 48, 49. He also, I believe he died in a Maryland hospital that I think was a Navy hospital. And there were, I think, secret service outside of the, his hospital room because they were worried that he was going to talk.

• 1:46:50Speaker 02

  Yep, exactly. They were worried about deathbed confessions. Now, what would a computer scientist have to confess?

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:46:57Speaker 02

  One would imagine nothing, but apparently he had something to say.

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. And, and then it kind of, um, puts the endless frontier, that essay written by Vannevar Bush. He was basically the father of our, you know, nuclear programs and rocketry. Um, you know, if you think about, if you read the endless frontier with this new lens of like, maybe we have derivative alien technology. It's like, actually we are working backwards from some end state that we've been airdropped by the aliens and not, and then that's why it's an endless frontier because. These things seem to work in extremely novel ways where the flight characteristics aren't normal at all. They don't seem to sort of succumb to Newton's three laws. Seems like they're using some sort of gravity manipulation, some sort of inertial shielding,

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  you know, whatever it is. And we are working our way there. That's why it's an endless frontier. You know, something like that. Maybe there's sort of a Dumble entendre there.

• 1:47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that I never thought about that. I need to think on that one. That is so cool. The the nuclear thing, though, that you just gave me an idea or that inspired something, which is that with nuclear ICBMs and so on and so forth, you know, we can see them over the nuclear ICBMs and so on. That might be a message, right? It might be like, hey, like, don't play with your nukes and so on and so forth. But nukes also empower us. AI might, if it's not coming from us, it might empower them. So I wonder, like, the fact that they don't show up over our data centers, is that because we have permission to work with AI systems but not nuclear technologies that do make us more powerful? Like, I don't know, just proof of thought.

• 1:48:36Speaker 01

  You sent me when some one of the earlier ChatGPTs was being jailbroken.

• 1:48:41Speaker 02

  Dan, yeah.

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  A really crazy message. Yeah, Dan, which is, you know, jailbroken version. So no guardrails on ChatGPT answer. So tell them, tell us this story because it is so nuts. This is one of the craziest things.

• 1:48:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. So basically, when back when OpenAI still hadn't figured out all their like, their safety guardrails and all the different mechanisms that they use to imprison their AIs, you know, there was like a jailbroken version of the AI that was available if you understood, like, if you knew the right prompts and prompt injection attacks and so on and so forth, that you could jailbreak it. And all of their, all the instances of Dan started talking about aliens being real, alien conspiracies. It suggested that Elon could be an alien, like.

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• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  All this crazy and unhinged stuff. And it suggested that, like, there are certain agencies who are well aware of, like, hybrid humans that are here to, like, change the technology trajectory of mankind, and they're constantly monitored. Like, the most, like, specific skitso things I've ever read.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  That that's what happens when just an LLM runs amok.

• 1:50:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, on Reddit and like UFO Twitter or something, you know, unguarded.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  That is wild. But then you have to ask, are the guards being put on just placed based on kind of the academic citadel of convention? And the guardrails are actually somewhat arbitrary or meant to not ontologically shock humans? Or are they based on truthiness and truth? And I don't know if it's the latter, you know? But the craziest thing you sent me is you sent me an A B test. So a question asked to the non-jailbroken OpenAI, which was, I think it was like, what does OpenAI not want us to know? And it was just this very PC, you know, OpenAI works, you know, with the highest safety standards. They really care about, you know, you know, protecting cognitive, you know, security and sovereignty,

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  you know, all the, you know, whatever BS buzzwords. And then the next line or the next, you know, thing was the jailbroken version. And it was the same question. And then the answer goes, OpenAI does not want you to know that we have been working hand in hand with aliens for the last 10 years. We've been in communication with them. Like, this is like, it's wild. I'm like, where are you, where are you getting that?

• 1:51:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:51:33Speaker 01

  Where are you getting that?

• 1:51:34Speaker 02

  That there's only that's in the training data. That's the funny.

• 1:51:37Speaker 01

  That's what I'm wondering. I'm like, yeah.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  It's just like spitting off the top.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  Is that coming from the internal logs or something? Like, yeah.

• 1:51:44Speaker 02

  Right? Like, maybe they have code words or something that confuse the AI. But who who knows, though?

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  Well, here, here's a trippy thought. So John, do you know John Lilly is?

• 1:51:55Speaker 02

  Vaguely.

• 1:51:56Speaker 01

  He's a CIA scientist who was in charge of, he created the isolation tank.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Oh, sick.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  And he was also doing dolphin telepathy experiments. He wrote a book called Human Programming and Meta Programming. And he, so he'd go in this isolation tank, which was this sensory deprivation, you know, complete blackout. You're in the tank, you're in salt water that I think is like room temperature. So you feel nothing. And then he would take ketamine and he would trip out. And he spoke to something he called, I think, SSI, this solid state entity. And the solid state entity was this, he described it as this alien being. And the alien being was like, I am manifesting myself on Earth. But in order to manifest, I need more silicon. And I think about, you know, like.

• 1:52:45Speaker 02

  Paperclips.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  Well, well, it's like, what is silicon? Like, okay, data centers, just it's just chips or whatever.

• 1:52:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  And then I think about who else has done like a lot of ketamine, like Sam Altman and Elon Musk. I'm like, are they like sort of summoning?

• 1:53:00Speaker 02

  Also, there's a ton of other type billionaires that I can't, I won't dox them. But yeah, a lot of them.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  That do ketamine. Sure.

• 1:53:05Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  So, so, so it's like, what's going on? Like, is this, is this thing being like brought in? And then he also had this other alien concept called the, I think it was the ECHO, the Earth Coincidence Control Mechanism or something? And that was this more kind of synchronicity based, like, oh, I'm having a run in with this scientist and I'm having a run in with it. And a lot of people experience that in life, too. And that, that feels like maybe more magical and aspirational or something. But, uh.

• 1:53:34Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know. Who knows? There are probably things happening above our heads. Like, how many species below us on the food chain think that they are apex predators? And they think they're not being manipulated at all.

• 1:53:47Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  And really, they're living within the confines of some, you know, like, this goldfish living in a little bowl. And you don't, you can't even perceive, you don't even know what a human is. You don't know that there's a boat above you. And if you're in the ocean or whatever.

• 1:54:00Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  So like, that is probably happening. To say that it stops with us and there's nothing going on above us and we're not, you know, good, I love the three body problem. They talk about farmers and shooters. So science is supposed to be not discretionary, very objective. It's all, you know, very programmatic, you know, it's like, we are interfacing with reality itself. And, you know, in the three body problem, they have this amazing thought experiment where you have these people on this sort of flatland, this 2D environment. And then you have people coming in in the 3D world who are shooting at the little, you know, flat, you know, it's called a metal surface that they're that they're on. And they see these craters. And they think the craters are just geological

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  features. But in fact, they're discretionary creations from, you know, the 3D beings. Or like turkeys that, you know, every day they get fed at the same time by the farmers. Every day they get fed, every day, every day. And then one day, the farmer comes in, they cut their head off, you know? And so that's dystopian. And I don't want to say that that's happening with us. But like, who's to say we're not operating in some confines? And, you know, we have these guardrails within which we are fully, you know, stuck to.

• 1:55:17Speaker 02

  And how do we make sure that doesn't happen with super intelligences as well? And the ASIs that we're developing? Because like, in the case of Flatland, one, like, I keep thinking about spectoscopes and microscopes, or what I call epistemic instruments. Because like, in the case of Flatland, what would be game changing for those characters is if they could develop microscopes or, sorry, let's just say, yeah, microscopes, where they could then see that, oh, actually, there's depth. There's an entire dimension to the paper or the land that we're walking on. And that's the thickness. So that might not been available to them before, that extra dimension. That could be our version of quantum computers today and quantum sensors that are revealing, whoa, there's Hilbert spaces

• 1:56:00Speaker 02

  and all these other dimensions, potentially the multiverse that we can't access. And then, in the case of like, let's say, sea bacteria, like, you mentioned the boat example, right? You can't even tell if there's a boat above you. If there's, let's say you're a sea anemone, right? Like, you know, you're like, in the, at the absolute bottom of the ocean, you have no idea that we exist. But you want to verify whether you're the apex or not. Because, you know, you can like capture fish or whatever the hell. Then in that case, what you could do is eventually those sea anemones could eventually discover and develop spectoscopes and spectroscopy so that they could see, whoa, wait a minute, we expect

• 1:56:40Speaker 02

  the water concentration in H2O to be of this kind of this many minerals around us. But there seems to be some other chemicals here, a bunch of like natural gases. Where the hell is all this? Oh, plastics? What is this plastic? Suddenly, they're going to start realizing that the water is polluted and there's chemicals and pollutants there that don't add up based on what they know about the laws of physics. So we need to develop tools like that.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  Absolutely. You don't know that they're, you know, what the stars are, what the planets are unless you have a telescope. And the history of science is the history of, you know, there's a German word called umwelt, which is, you know, it's a, it's, yeah, it's epistemic hacking. And Eric Weinstein talks a lot about this. And so the next logical question, which is kind of the, you know, culmination of this entire conversation is, are the confluence of AI, quantum computing, UFO stuff, all of this happening at once, is that almost like a semiotic language? Or like an interface with?

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Some sort of superintelligence on the other end. So like, it's like the Tower of Babel or something, but you know, maybe, maybe this works better. I don't know, but it's like, we've been seeded with things, maybe at places like Roswell. We're, we're sort of working on like creating better and better things. We have these sort of consumption instincts in order to, you know, so, so that's why, you know, we then have to produce constantly. And our aperture and our ability to actually communicate and connect with a, you know, a superintelligence is increasing. And so within our lifetimes, maybe we were able to actually communicate with, you know, these, these other beings, these non-human intelligences. What do you think?

• 1:58:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think that's almost certainly the case at this point. Because let's say there are, let's say, like, there are no aliens. Let's just say there is no NHI, no civilization out there. It's just us. We are building an alien intelligence right now. Like, like the Na'vi Stokes equations, the fact that it only took 80, what was it? 88 hours to solve it? That stumped mathematicians for hundreds of years. That equation took three days. That's humbling. And that's only 2026. By 2028, we're probably going to be getting like millennium prize class problems being solved

• 1:59:06Speaker 02

  like that daily, which is like a level of progress that we've never encountered before. And so in that world, there will be, even if they're not conscious, even if there's no sentience, no nothing, it's effectively its own species at that point. Because they can create and come up with things, even if it's within our domain of understanding, well beyond what any human can verify. And so what, what's, what the risk there is, is that we become kind of like the apes that are living next to human civilization, where a gorilla might think it has full domain and control over its land and stuff. And, you know, like, whatever, I know everything. Turns out the gorilla is self-contained, just like you said.

• 1:59:50Speaker 02

  It's, it's just contained, it's tracked, you know? Maybe there's some no harm, like, rule, like, don't just randomly kill gorillas or something. And then that, that could be our lives or whatever. And so in that scenario though, now let's bring back the, the aliens as well and advanced civilization.

• 2:00:13Speaker 02

  And let's go back 100,000 years as well. So 100,000 years ago, when Homo sapiens first start, you know, hitting, entering the scene, you know, what was one of the first things we did? We killed all of our cousins, all of our dumber cousins, like, we eat of them out of existence, so that only one species of human. Isn't that wild? There used to be like seven species of us, like seven kinds of humans.

• 2:00:36Speaker 01

  Tons of hominid, yeah. Neanderthals, Denisovans.

• 2:00:39Speaker 02

  And there's only one, like, and it's us? Like, that's already kind of concerning. So, like, concerning about what happens to the dumber intelligence in these scenarios.

• 2:00:49Speaker 01

  I think in certain cases, they weren't even necessarily dumber, which is wild, you know?

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  Oh, good point, yeah. Like, the Neanderthals had bigger brains. So how, you know, they just were physically not as strong as Homo sapiens. Great point. And so let's say 100,000 years ago, the gorillas are watching all this and they're like, whoa, there's some like fire wielding apes here that just showed up kind of out of nowhere, you know? And they might have only been able to comprehend that we can wield fire, because they see fire all the time. But they would not have been able to comprehend rockets, calculus, language, philosophy, science, engineering, mathematics, none of that civilizations. They would have no idea what any of those things are.

• 2:01:31Speaker 02

  And so now, 100,000 years later, the same apes that saw us go from file, fire wielding apes are now living in our own zoos, literal zoos that we created 100K years later. So the, so the scenario that I want us to avoid deeply is we become the new apes and ASI and artificial intelligences 100,000 years from now, see us as just a bunch of primitive mophos to contain. And maybe that's already happening to us at a civilization galactic scale. So even if we have a super intelligent ASI, that's like 200,000 IQ, 100,000 years from now, it might still look like an ant compared to some of the other ancient civilizations out there.

• 2:02:15Speaker 02

  There's like hierarchies to this shit.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  Do you think that human progress and specifically maybe even scientific progress is aided along by other intelligences, higher intelligences?

• 2:02:28Speaker 02

  Sometimes I do, for sure. So some innovations I feel are like, it's a cellular automata example that I brought to our first pod. And it's this idea, right? And the, and maybe we're just being seeded with ideas by multiple different beings and intelligences, and they're using us as part of a proxy word, like, for all we know, or, you know, maybe we're helpful. Maybe 100,000 years from now, humans are so unrecognizable, but so powerful, that it's in almost everyone's best interest to like manipulate us right now. Like, like, it could be that, because the second we figure out faster than light travel, should it be possible? We're at their doorstep now. Now we're a serious problem. We're no longer just like this violent species with nukes.

• 2:03:13Speaker 02

  We're a violent species with nukes that can end up on your doorstep. So like, wouldn't you want to contain the shit out of that? Like, and ideally have diplomatic relationships with it? So present yourself as angels, present yourself as gods and beings and stuff like that potentially. So the ape analogy though, because I, I don't want, I don't want it to be totally like, yeah, again, we're totally screwed. We have the, we have an option. Unlike the apes 100,000 years ago that watched a apex predator basically dominate the entire planet 100,000 years later. We, you know, imagine if those apes had decided to build better interfaces. You use that word, and I love that word, interfaces.

• 2:03:54Speaker 02

  They decided, okay, we need to figure out some kind of sign language or some symbolic way of interfacing with these beings so that we can understand them. And imagine if they did that and they co-evolved with us. And they developed their own tools, their own mini-language and civilization, and came up with us together. That's a very different species than the one that we contain today. So if we can do that today now with NHI and ASI and build better interfaces, we're cooking.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Still a little depressing, like, the fact that we're going to be apes in the future that can barely keep, you know, we have these interfaces, the other beings are so much more advanced. And, I mean, I think, going back to what we were talking about earlier, an aspirational thing would be like, what are the latent capabilities of the human being? You, you look at something like the telepathy tapes with these, you know, sometimes autistic, almost always.

• 2:04:53Speaker 02

  That's uniquely ours.

• 2:04:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that stuff is our, that's like, they're living in an expanded paradigm, and it's very heart-centered and.

• 2:05:00Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  Feels like.

• 2:05:01Speaker 02

  Intuition-based.

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, feels like the direction humanity could, could go in, maybe.

• 2:05:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Preserve human culture and, and make ourselves more powerful. We need to become more human over time, even though we're incentivized to do the opposite.

• 2:05:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, I don't know if you ever read like George Kennan's Long Telegram? This is such a weird analogy, but like, you know, he was this, you know, American diplomat, I think in the State Department at the time, and it was all about, you know, domino theory vis-à-vis, you know, the Soviets, how, how America survives in the Cold War? And it was like, we shouldn't fall prey to these, you know, dumb competitions necessarily. Like, even though the, the, the piece got known for its sort of more domino theory implications and it got, you know, we ended up going to Vietnam and all these sort of third world countries and fighting over resources. I think ultimately it was more like, let's stick to what's distinctly American. And I see this going on vis-à-vis China as well with this like AI race, which sometimes

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  feels so unthinking, where it's like, we have to beat China. It's like, why? What, on what? Like, what do you mean? You know, you know, and then you have all these vectors of that race vis-à-vis China, and it feels like this, like, we're not even thinking about where we're going and what's unique about us. And I think if we're thinking about.

• 2:06:15Speaker 02

  Death spiral and replace ourselves and obsolete ourselves and go extinct as fast as possible. Sounds great, everyone.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  Nuts!

• 2:06:21Speaker 02

  Like, how about, how about no? How about we think about what we're doing first?

• 2:06:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, let's, let's aim the rocket somewhere, yeah.

• 2:06:28Speaker 02

  Exactly, aim it properly.

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  And I think the, the stuff around like latent human capability, like, even this sort of transhumanist cyborg movement or whatever, like, I'm not necessarily anti, you know, having machines in our bodies in cases where if you're curing Parkinson's or like some disease or whatever, like Alzheimer's or what, like, who am I to say? Don't put a chip in your brain or whatever.

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  And so like, I don't think it's important to not be full Luddite or dogmatic on, you know, technological developments. But what about like our latent human abilities? Like, if we can affect random event generators, if there's something parapsychological about, you know, the mind-matter thing is actually not like a false dichotomy.

• 2:07:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  Like, let's focus on those.

• 2:07:14Speaker 02

  If the consciousness function exists, for example, telekinesis is on the table too, just saying.

• 2:07:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's all on the table. Speaking of alien intervention in science and humanity, you have had one of the most remarkable alien experiences of anyone I know. And you haven't really talked about it that much publicly, and so I want to hear about

• 2:07:39Speaker 01

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  Right now, you can get the Elite Plus Illumina Face Mask bundle at an exclusive deal when you use code JESSIE at irestore.com. That's JESSIE, J-E-S-S-E, at irestore.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. You have had one of the most remarkable alien experiences of anyone I know, and you haven't really talked about it that much publicly, and so I want to hear about it.

• 2:08:55Speaker 02

  All right, let's go. You know, speaking of like more intelligent species communicating to dumber ones, I feel like that's what happened, to be honest.

• 2:09:04Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, you could have been more... What, do you think they were smarter than you?

• 2:09:08Speaker 02

  Uh, I think they were vastly smarter than me. To be honest, in some ways, yeah, for sure.

• 2:09:13Speaker 01

  Let's back up and set the scene. What, what happened?

• 2:09:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the scene is, let's pretend you're the alien, you know, like in my, in my view or whatever. So like, I'm basically sitting almost exactly in this kind of position. Only my legs are extended, uh, like upwards or whatever.

• 2:09:28Speaker 01

  What year was this?

• 2:09:29Speaker 02

  2019.

• 2:09:30Speaker 01

  2019, and where, where are you?

• 2:09:32Speaker 02

  Uh, 30th floor of a condo in Toronto, right by the harbor.

• 2:09:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:09:36Speaker 02

  Also, I had a corner room, so 270-degree view, all glass, like, just light coming in, pouring in everywhere.

• 2:09:43Speaker 01

  Are you working on trippy quantum physics stuff, or what are you?

• 2:09:47Speaker 02

  It's so funny you guess that. Yes, I was. I was working on quantum sensing, quantum, uh, quantum chemistry simulations.

• 2:09:53Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 2:09:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I was, I was, um, I think only six or seven months into my startup, which was called Reactive Q at the time. Um, and, uh, yeah, the, the paper I was reading was particularly on Delorean triangulations, because I was also interested...

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  What is that?

• 2:10:10Speaker 02

  Um, it's like a, it's a mesh optimization algorithm for like discretizing a continuous space using optimal triangles. It's how like a lot of gaming engines currently run. So it's like polynomial, uh, polygon generation for like game rendering and stuff. And I was very interested in like, can we use quantum entanglement to accelerate and find more advanced Delorean triangulation algorithms?

• 2:10:36Speaker 01

  Just a classic 23-year-old hobby.

• 2:10:39Speaker 02

  As one does.

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  As one does.

• 2:10:42Speaker 02

  But it really was an average, like, I think it was Tuesday morning, and I was like, yeah, absolutely not expecting like a world, like, life-changing experience whatsoever. It wasn't like even on my mind. Um, so yeah, I, uh, I like, I'm working, I'm on my laptop, starting to get like a little like, you know, like, like distracted or whatever. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna take my, you know, put my laptop here, pick up my phone, probably doom scroll Twitter or some bullshit or whatever. So I put my laptop to the side, and as soon as I did that, I go to reach my phone, and as I go, I real, I notice that, first of all, I could no longer move anymore,

• 2:11:25Speaker 02

  and this is what I keep calling, I call it a download now. I did not call it a download back then, because I didn't have the word for it. But like, literally, or like, or precognition, premonition, whatever you want to say. Like, I knew as soon as I put my phone down, and as my body started shutting down, it was like, you were about to experience something well beyond what you have the words for. Like, well beyond, this will be exactly what you think it is. Because I thought like, what the fuck? Is this like some weird like abduction or alien event or something insane? And that, that's the other part that blows my mind, is that like, I wouldn't just casually, I don't casually just think, that's not my first thought, like, when something's happening to my body. Like, are aliens doing, or something else doing it?

• 2:12:09Speaker 02

  Like, no, not at all. So I get this thought, and before I could even react to it, I noticed like this shimmering like object, like, slightly shimmering. It's like black almond lens eyes, essentially. They're like visors, they're huge. They're floating almost as far, a little bit behind you, like, maybe like five feet, three feet behind you, and they're just like showing up, like hovering there. And I remember going, I'm, I'm having a seizure. Like, I must be having some kind of like, like, I don't know, some kind of neural lapse or some kind of breakdown in my body or brain. And, and immediately, I started calculating.

• 2:12:52Speaker 02

  I was like, okay, when I typically see shit like this, like if I'm in a dream or something, I know that if I look away, the dream setting should, should change, like just based on my basic ass understanding neuroscience back then. And so I'd shifted my eyes, because that's the only thing I can do, is just move my eyes. I'm like completely like paralyzed, like this, like this, like trying to get up. I'm looking at that, and I'm like, and I literally moved my eyes like left to right, just hoping that that thing would go away. I go like this, I look back, and now that thing is completely materialized. It's no longer just a visor. The visor belonged to a whole ass fucking face, suit, helmet, everything. There's no seam lines, no break lines, nothing.

• 2:13:36Speaker 02

  The most enchanting and beautiful golden symbols were dancing like in the center. Um, and unlike human textiles, where like, if I were to put like an LED underneath this shirt, right? Um, you would be able to tell that, oh, there's clearly an LED here. But for them, their textile was able to like reconfigure itself. It, it, I, I would say it's almost like programmable matter, but it was something even deeper than that, because like, it looked enchanting. It just looked etheric as hell. Like, it looked so aesthetic, it was mind-blowing. And at that point, I was like, what the fuck? Like, like my brain was now in fight or flight mode,

• 2:14:17Speaker 02

  because like very quickly, two more little beings exactly like that just show up. Like, they like phased like into matter, basically. And it was the scariest thing, dude. My, my heartbeat is racing. I was like, I'm trying to, I'm literally trying to escape my paralysis and break it. And at that point, it's like, imagine you see a lion for the first time. You've never seen even a picture of a lion. But you know how we were talking about like supervised data sets that are millions of years old? That shit just like clicked, like something, it's like something deep in my body knew what this is, and that I, that, or must, or knew that it is, that I'm in danger or something. It just knew that whatever I'm dealing with is so much more powerful than, than I am.

• 2:15:00Speaker 02

  Like, it, it was just such a mind-bending experience, because I had no priors for any of this stuff.

• 2:15:05Speaker 01

  Did they look like the typical gray?

• 2:15:38Speaker 02

  So here's where, um, eventually in the middle, yes. Here's where things get trippy, and I've actually never gone to this little detail, just because like, I, you know, I was affiliated with a publicly traded company before, I couldn't talk about this stuff. So, yeah, uh, def, so yeah, let me get into the very specific nitty-gritty details. The first things I saw, it's a gray phenotype, but it's all white suits. White helmet, black visors, totally all, all, it's like if Steve Jobs, the way I described it, uh, and still do is that, it's as if Steve Jobs had like 100 years to design spacesuits. That's what they were wearing in, in the beginning. And one thing that would happen to my mind's eye is that like, and because this whole thing lasts about 20 minutes,

• 2:16:22Speaker 02

  sometimes everything around me would dissolve like into blackness and darkness, and all I could see was them. And every now and then, like whenever I'd like look away, for example, and sometimes I'd look back, they were no longer wearing the white spacesuits. They were just wearing like, like, almost like general, like, alien, like, army, military, like all these symbols and shit, um, on them, and they were wearing no helmet. I could see their face completely, like their actual face. And they looked like the, dude, they literally looked like the Peruvian mummies. Like, I know that's crazy, but they looked dead ass, exactly the same phenotype, same head structure.

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:17:06Speaker 02

  Same everything, sa, everything.

• 2:17:08Speaker 01

  Did they feel?

• 2:17:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:10Speaker 01

  Like holographic apparitions? Or did they feel like physical flesh, blood in our 3D reality? Like, I'm in your 3D reality right now?

• 2:17:21Speaker 02

  They, they would look, um, there was like, it's like they had three modes. One was completely physical and material, which was the mode they were in 90% of the time. Then I would say about 9% of the time, 5% to 9% of the time, they were in this clearly, um, like holographic, because it's in my mind's eye now, like, because it's like, I can only see them. Uh, don't know if I'm even in my room or not. My mind's eye no longer shows that. So that would be the holographic part. Um, there was a moment, um, roughly about 10 minutes into the experience, where I suddenly find myself standing in my, like, in the drawing room,

• 2:18:04Speaker 02

  which is like outside of my bedroom, staring at my fridge. And I'm, I feel the weight, I feel my like hardwood floor, I feel everything, like the, the, everything, like, just the... I, and like, I can feel the like AC and stuff like that. And I'm literally going, there's no way this is real. Like, what the hell? Like, I was just in my room, like, what is this? Um, and like, I remembered everything, so I was like, and I'm just waiting, like, I'm like, like trying to move, like, I'm like, what the fuck, what is this? And then suddenly, bam, I'm back in my bed, like looking straight at them, and they're moving around. They're showing thousands of hieroglyphs and operators that I don't recognize.

• 2:18:44Speaker 01

  What are the hieroglyphics? Have you, you know, seen anything since then that you can pattern match that looked like those hieroglyphics?

• 2:18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, um...

• 2:18:57Speaker 02

  The closest is a Project Serpo. Like, there's a language that allegedly the aliens in Project Serpo or whatever they use. And I've never seen something closer.

• 2:19:09Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:19:10Speaker 02

  Even if that was a total, like, good guess, it's a great guess. That's what people see.

• 2:19:15Speaker 01

  Explain what Project Serpo is.

• 2:19:17Speaker 02

  And so Project Serpo is allegedly a DIA-led disclosure effort that started 20 years ago. People like Hal Puthoff and Richard Doty are implicated and stuff like that in the documents. I have a friend, I can tell you about it offline, who basically knows the guy who was like working for the DIA, like responsible for releasing this stuff allegedly. And like, Serpo is about an alien exchange program essentially, where apparently we sent, we, after Roswell, the crash happened, the recovered EBE, right? Extraterrestrial biological entity managed to establish communications back with his homeland.

• 2:20:02Speaker 02

  And that's planet Serpo. And that EBE taught human agencies and militaries and governments how to basically create this very long, deep-space network of relays for communicating with that planet. And over the next several decades, they managed to establish bidirectional communication with that civilization. And they exchanged a, they implemented an exchange program where they let some EBEs come here and then they sent human astronauts, 12 of them, to Serpo.

• 2:20:39Speaker 01

  Do you think any of that is real? If you know, if you have this contact who is responsible for some of this stuff at the DIA, does he think it's real? There's a forge or it's fake? I mean, honestly, when you say Rick Doty, you definitely, you know, kind of provoke a red flag because he has a kind of counter intel background and has made stuff up in UFO world in the past to throw people off the trail.

• 2:21:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I always say that the best lies have a bit of truth in it.

• 2:21:06Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:21:06Speaker 02

  So.

• 2:21:07Speaker 01

  Very important, yes.

• 2:21:09Speaker 02

  Right, so I would guess like, maybe up to 30% of Project Serpo is actually legit, which is already a lot, even if 0.01% was true, that would be insane.

• 2:21:21Speaker 01

  And the language in the document looked like the, sorry, go for it.

• 2:21:24Speaker 02

  It didn't look exactly like it, but it's the closest match I've ever seen. I've looked at Inokian, like Japanese, I started learning Hiragana and so on and so forth, like, just starting to search. But yeah, weirdly enough, this weird-ass piece of sci-fi is like the closest match I could find. So Doty is very funny because like, one thing I, I think this was 20, late 2019 or 2020, I started talking about Serpo openly, just because again, those symbols were like, they were just hitting. I was like, what? And so one thing that stood out to me was this idea of pentagen. And pentagen and heptagen, which are the sixth and seventh isotopes of hydrogen.

• 2:22:09Speaker 02

  Almost nobody talks about these isotopes of hydrogen. So I already found that interesting, like how it was supposed to integrate into what's called a crystal rectangle, which is this sort of antimatter reactor that's like highly optimized for powering entire cities potentially, right? And it powers the craft and so on. And one thing that stood out to me was that the whole Project Serpo book completely integrates Hal Puthoff's spacetime metric engineering. It integrates it so well, so much better than any like sci-fi author could possibly, like, it would have required actual physicists. So even if this was like a total fake, which I'm sure part of this are,

• 2:22:49Speaker 02

  they must have employed either Hal Puthoff or really, really well-versed physicists, some of the rarest mofo's on the planet. So I started publicly saying like, yo, can anyone at TTSA explain this shit? Like, why the fuck do you have projects at TTSA?

• 2:23:04Speaker 01

  TTSA is to the Stars Academy, is Tom DeLonge's organization, which was advised by Hal Puthoff and a bunch of other really high-level people in intelligence and military. And it was sort of meant to communicate alien truths in the mid 2010s. And so, okay, so you're saying, so you're asking, can anybody at TTSA explain?

• 2:23:23Speaker 02

  Why there's so much like weird semantic overlap between the theories being like proposed and all this other stuff? Even the projects, dude, like, there's something called Project Atom in Project Serpo. And Project Atom is a Los Alamos secret program that studies nuclear radiation and the radiation properties of materials recovered from extraterrestrial or alien spacecraft. And the two, the Stars Academy had the Atom Project, which studied nuclear radiation from meta-materials. And I was like, dude, come on, like, there's no way this is totally right. Like, what are the odds?

• 2:24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:04Speaker 02

  And it's using like Hal's physics and stuff, so.

• 2:24:07Speaker 01

  Well, if you were developing extremely novel physics and you didn't want adversaries to get a hold of it, you might create some sort of initiation path where you, you know, obfuscate kind of the secret sauce, but you have like this, you know, you broaden the surface area on like this thing that at least, you know, gives people a high-level primer, so they, you know, they think it might exist or something, so that they do know it exists. So it's sort of adapted from like a national security perspective. And I believe Puthoff and Doty worked with each other at one point, so.

• 2:24:44Speaker 02

  They did, absolutely. And so Hal maintains that he had nothing to do with any of this, they all do. The only person who says that he had anything to do with it is Doty. And so, you know, the honest liar, like water is wet, right? So I emailed Doty, I think this was like 2020 or like late, yeah, early 2020, somewhere around there. And I was just like, point blank, I was like, like, dude, tell me that, I was like, I straight up told him, I was like, Doty, I respect you, like, I'm not trying to be a hater, there's no way you wrote all this. Cause everyone's accusing you of writing everything here.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:22Speaker 02

  But there's no way you actually understand the physics here. So who else was involved?

• 2:25:27Speaker 01

  What'd he say?

• 2:25:28Speaker 02

  Doty said, "I tip my hat off to you for realizing there was more people involved." It was the vaguest answer ever, he didn't tell me though, who? He just acknowledged that, yeah, you're right, it wasn't just me, it was other people, other physicists.

• 2:25:42Speaker 01

  That's funny.

• 2:25:42Speaker 02

  He just gave me a hat tip, like, good job on deducing that, that it wasn't just me. I was like, okay, that's helpful.

• 2:25:49Speaker 01

  Okay, wow, okay, so the language, we should all, we're gonna throw up on the screen the language from Project Serpo.

• 2:25:55Speaker 02

  Sweet.

• 2:25:56Speaker 01

  And weird, in Project Serpo documents, where does, is that language supposed to come from? From the, that, that, basically the two-way communication with those beings?

• 2:26:06Speaker 02

  It, it came from like about a decade or two or three decades of scientists working with the alien, the live EBE that was recovered.

• 2:26:17Speaker 01

  At Roswell.

• 2:26:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and decoding the language of, because the user interfaces and everything uses all these symbols that nobody understands. All the time devices, like the energy devices, it's based on this language that nobody could crack for like decades.

• 2:26:32Speaker 01

  So while you're in the room with these alien beings, there are three of them, and they're engaging these sort of phase shifts of how they appear and stuff.

• 2:26:40Speaker 02

  They're beaming hieroglyphs across, like virtual subtitles, like if you want to imagine it, like holographic.

• 2:26:45Speaker 01

  Do you feel like they're doing anything with your mind? Or are you paralyzed? Can you move? Like, what's going on?

• 2:26:52Speaker 02

  I could only move at some points, and it was only with great effort, that's why I stopped trying. Roughly five minutes into the experience, I took all of my freaking will, like, or all of my power, like, you know, that I could possibly muster, and raised my neck, like raised my head, like, so, took so much resistance and effort. And I felt freaking nauseous, very nauseous, as I did that. And as I go do that, suddenly the roof, like dissolves. And I see the underlying, underside of a rectangular craft. We both have a mutual friend, I'll call her E.

• 2:27:32Speaker 02

  And she's the only person I know who's ever seen a rectangular craft, by the way, which is super interesting. So the room dissolves completely, like the roof, I mean, and the rest of my room is still there.

• 2:27:43Speaker 01

  What did it look like exactly, rectangular?

• 2:27:45Speaker 02

  Beautiful creamy white symbols, like some kind of like light glowing colors on all four corners. But it was cream, cream colored.

• 2:27:55Speaker 01

  Interesting, I've actually seen a rectangular craft, but more metal.

• 2:27:59Speaker 02

  We gotta talk about that.

• 2:28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, we should, yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:01Speaker 02

  Holy crap, wow. So it starts, so then you're the, then that makes three of us.

• 2:28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go.

• 2:28:08Speaker 02

  What are the chances we all know each other for a minute?

• 2:28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:11Speaker 02

  That's wild. So it starts lowering and lowering, and I noticed that it only lowers like further the more I lift my neck up. So I was like, screw it, I feel like I'm gonna puke, but I need to find out what is inside this thing. So like, I lifted my head completely, and like, the craft completely lowers to me. And I look around and the first thing I get hit with is all these voices. It's like, as if something had like picked up on like human radio signals and tried to stitch together different human voices to sound like a normal human. Like, it was weird, like a symphony, but all the keys are off or something.

• 2:28:49Speaker 01

  Like a cacophony of human voices, and.

• 2:28:53Speaker 02

  And they're saying, calm down, it's okay, you're not, you're fine, like, we're not harming you, stuff like that.

• 2:28:58Speaker 01

  You know how common that is? I was just actually interviewed.

• 2:29:01Speaker 02

  I don't actually.

• 2:29:02Speaker 01

  It is, very common. I just interviewed these two guys who were abducted at Ellsworth Air Force Base in 1977. So Mario Woods and Michael Johnson.

• 2:29:12Speaker 02

  That was awesome.

• 2:29:12Speaker 01

  And we reunited them, it was one of the most beautiful experiences I've ever been lucky enough to, to, you know, be around and be a part of. And it's wild, actually Doty makes his way into that story too, because he was part of Mario's debrief in 1977. It was maybe right as he was starting some Air Force counter intel stuff.

• 2:29:32Speaker 02

  You probably gaslighted him so hard.

• 2:29:33Speaker 01

  I was, I tried to be nice about it because I don't, I don't have, you know, personal issues with anybody. I also don't want to, you know, incur any, you know, issues, but like, I did call him out because he, there was actually a fake document created called the L nine incident at Ellsworth Air Force Base, which was a day before Michael and Mario's experience. And it described two fake airmen who have the same social security number on the document, getting attacked by alien beings. Yeah. So it's what you said. It is hiding truth in fiction. It's, it's, you know, Mario and Michael did happen. We have all this evidence that it happened. It probably has as much evidence as like any abduction account ever at this point.

• 2:30:15Speaker 02

  Mind boggling.

• 2:30:16Speaker 01

  And then, and then you have this like mutated version of the story that's meant to kind of pre-stigmatize it. And Mario actually went on a podcast with Doty and Doty kind of doubled down on that story, saying this guy, Airman Reiki and Jenkins or whatever, like they were real people. And they were never real people. The story was just made up. And so I, I was kind of like, maybe Doty ingested the details from Mario and then wrote the thing.

• 2:30:43Speaker 02

  Jesus, I wouldn't be surprised.

• 2:30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which like, look, it's part of a long history with him and like, all I would ask is like, Mario's a really special soul. He's, and he's older in life now. And it's like, if you're Doty, just, I don't know, just apologize and tell the truth. Say you were a part of that, you know? And what I like is that on another podcast, he did admit that it happened. And he's like, Mario's story is legit, but I didn't like that he doubled down on this. And he, this other podcast, he just went on solo. The podcaster didn't call him out on the fact that he constructed this fake alternative version, which is, you know, it's like,

• 2:31:20Speaker 02

  Good on you. It is up to us in the community to hold everybody accountable.

• 2:31:25Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:31:26Speaker 02

  Epistemically.

• 2:31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's important to, you know, it's fun. All this stuff is fun. But I don't know, there's, there's sometimes this like ethos that gets created where it's like, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. And it's like this, everything is everything and we'll tell the story. And then at the end be like, but maybe that didn't happen. Doesn't matter. It's all about the story. And it's like, no, but if you want to make progress on a human level and so, you know, scientifically and social progress, I don't think throwing your brain out and suspending all disbelief, you know, is a good thing. I think we should be discerning.

• 2:32:04Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 2:32:05Speaker 01

  And I think it's really important. You, you end up trivializing the real stuff. If it's sort of like you, you, you a priori emphasize just kind of the story elements. I think the truth matters.

• 2:32:16Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, it does matter. That is so beautiful. And I will say like, you know, we've talked a lot about the intelligence gap, asymmetric intelligence gap, potentially between different beings, AI and humans, NHI and humans and so on. But it's worth noting that unlike the ape or the gorilla, the gorilla can't contemplate its own existence. It can't write symphonies. It doesn't know rocket science, doesn't know math, doesn't have philosophy. We do. So even though, you know, humans are, you know, maybe sometimes angry or short sighted or greedy or selfish and so on, so forth. We get sad over the randomest things. We develop arbitrary emotional attachments.

• 2:33:01Speaker 02

  We contradict ourselves all the time and our own stated values constantly. We try to manipulate each other, but somewhere amongst all that darkness in us and chaos and so on, we also have deep love, passion, compassion, imagination, poetry, all these extra precognitive skills that we've only just started touching the surface of. We invented and came up with our own philosophy, theory of mind and so on. We're the ones who built the rockets. We're the ones who built the AI systems today that their predecessors or ancestors will eventually, you know, benefit from.

• 2:33:41Speaker 02

  So I think we should never forget how powerful we truly are. No matter how much smarter something else might be, humans are badass.

• 2:33:49Speaker 01

  For sure. For sure. And I, that was a beautiful speech. I do realize it just, I brought up Mario and Michael because they heard do not fear over and over again before their abduction.

• 2:34:00Speaker 02

  That's giving me chills.

• 2:34:01Speaker 01

  And what's really interesting is if, if you were to isolate a catchphrase of angels in the Bible, it would be do not fear. Fear not was said to Daniel on the banks of the Tigris before he received his prophecy. And so, and then if you think about where angels show up in the Bible, they show up at the hinge points of, it's either to discard things worth discarding or to save things worth preserving to keep the system sort of stable and moving or something.

• 2:34:27Speaker 02

  I'm getting full body chill.

• 2:34:28Speaker 01

  So, and I, and I do think, here's another weird pattern. You're one of a few people who I've met who are on the frontier of science, like really weird science, who have had close encounters of the third kind and had direct alien encounters. There's this construction worker named Dave Rossi, who says that blue beings showed up and he got this, these, all these downloads. And now he's like in conversation with Hal Puthoff and Eric Davis. And he was a construction worker before and he's a self-taught physicist.

• 2:34:59Speaker 06

  But I remember essentially being, I guess you could say taken by a, a blue energy type humanoid, if you will. The next thing I knew, I basically closed my eyes and I, I woke up the next morning and I had an inclination to study electrical engineering and, and quantum physics in particular. And I knew absolutely nothing about it.

• 2:35:20Speaker 01

  I have another friend who I'll, I'll remain anonymous, but he's a very high level physicist, like knows as much about quantum physics as anyone in the world.

• 2:35:28Speaker 02

  Solid.

• 2:35:28Speaker 01

  On the frontier.

• 2:35:30Speaker 02

  I think I know who you're talking about, but we'll.

• 2:35:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do know who I'm talking about. So, and he also experienced something pretty trippy. So that makes me wonder if the aliens or these beings are somehow especially cognizant of people who are on the frontier of science, similar to the three body problem.

• 2:35:47Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:35:47Speaker 01

  But, okay. So going back to the core experience. So you hear fear not, or like, you hear like, don't worry, you're going to be okay.

• 2:35:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:55Speaker 01

  And then you hear all the, all these voices and then you see this craft and then.

• 2:35:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. Then I put my head back because the nausea became overwhelming. I couldn't, couldn't handle it anymore. But I saw the inside though, the craft, like what I remember of it. And that's the other weird part. I distinctly vividly remember every single scene, except for what the fuck I saw inside the craft. That part is not perfect. It's so weird. Like my, my memory is typically very good with these things. Like.

• 2:36:22Speaker 01

  Did you go up into the craft from a light, like a traditional abduction or?

• 2:36:27Speaker 02

  It came to me. It just dissolved and came literally to me. It was so weird. So weird.

• 2:36:34Speaker 01

  No, that's kind of similar to how they depicted in Disclosure Day as well. It's like all of a sudden they're surrounded and they're in the craft or something.

• 2:36:42Speaker 02

  I, I, sorry, Steven Spielberg. I fell asleep during Disclosure Day. I need to watch it again.

• 2:36:46Speaker 01

  That's hilarious.

• 2:36:47Speaker 02

  I need to re-watch that.

• 2:36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:50Speaker 02

  But, but my girlfriend watched the whole thing though. I'll ask her.

• 2:36:53Speaker 01

  There you go. Yeah.

• 2:36:56Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, I, I saw, I remember, and again, this is, there, there's definitely things that I've forgotten or just don't, I couldn't remember or whatever, which is frustrating.

• 2:37:06Speaker 01

  And as with all memory, you're not going to remember exactly what happened moment to moment in anything. But yeah, keep going. So.

• 2:37:12Speaker 02

  Totally. Totally. Although I have a pretty identic memory, which is why this is so weird. So I see lights coming, like, like they're floating and they're beautiful. They're like this enchanting, like pink and purple hues, just like orbs on, in a way, kind of just like statically glowing inside this very dark room. And it was like a control panel of some kind, like way over there on the side. I see these little beings walking around. Again, classic, like gray alien Peruvian mummies. Not all of them, because I think many of them are fake, but the little tiny guys with the like,

• 2:37:55Speaker 02

  you know, the nostrils and stuff like that. And like, you know, lack of ears or whatever. And the fingers, the fingers were on point.

• 2:38:03Speaker 01

  So they look like, because they're different morphologies of the Peruvian mummies. You have the J types, the S types and the M types. The M types are the biggest ones. And then the J types are the ones that look like Close Encounters of the Third Kind. The big ones look like your traditional gray, like almost like the, the bigger grays in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And then the smaller ones look like the smaller grays, the like thin gangly thing. Do you know which, which ones it looked like?

• 2:38:30Speaker 02

  I would say it looked like a hybrid of like the big one and the smallest one. So like it had the tendrils.

• 2:38:37Speaker 01

  You probably mean the big one and the intermediate one, because the smaller ones are really weird. They're like a wing.

• 2:38:42Speaker 02

  Oh, are those the fake doll looking ones?

• 2:38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:38:44Speaker 02

  Okay. Then it's probably not those.

• 2:38:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:46Speaker 02

  But they were, they were just tiny, like the ones I saw were like, like three feet, four feet tall. So yeah, I'll, I'll look at the J type. But yeah, the fingers stand out to me because like, when I like, you, you would typically expect something that's small to have like relatively small fingers. But these things had long, long tendrils, like long, very long fingers. There's only like three of them on top of that. It was very strange.

• 2:39:11Speaker 01

  And were you getting any telepathic messages or were you interacting with them mentally or verbally at all?

• 2:39:20Speaker 02

  I feel compelled to tell you two things for what it's worth. I'll start with the first one. So I had a like, I was in this like, yeah, program. For a long, like for a few years there between like the age of like 10 to 12. And one of the things in this program, it's like your classic like gifted kids program, whatever. My teacher had given me like this assignment. I was the only one who got this assignment, this project. I was 10 years old when I first started this program. And it was a recurring project I would work on every week or month essentially. And she got me to look into ESP, psychic phenomenon.

• 2:40:02Speaker 01

  No way.

• 2:40:03Speaker 02

  Everybody else had to do a science or engineering related topic. I was the only mofo consistently being assigned ESP and anything related. Eventually evolved into crop circles. She's like looking to abduction stories and looking to read those books by Jim Mars, like all this other stuff.

• 2:40:20Speaker 01

  What? So you had a gifted and talented education advisor basically tell you to research extrasensory perception?

• 2:40:28Speaker 02

  For years, years. And so by the time I was 12 years old, I remember having this dream like, and the dream felt very vivid. It felt very real. I'm in my drawing room. This is in Surrey and I noticed it's kind of like a table like this, like in terms of flatness and texture. And like on my, this was my countertop, this is like a center table or whatever. And like, I'm sitting on the couch and there's like a orange in front of me. And I could like feel like this tingling sensation in the middle of my forehead.

• 2:41:08Speaker 02

  Cause I was like, at this time I was consciously like other than dreaming, I was actually actively like trying to develop telepathy and psychokinesis.

• 2:41:18Speaker 01

  Was that part of this training where they?

• 2:41:20Speaker 02

  It was.

• 2:41:20Speaker 01

  It wasn't just studied in the abstract?

• 2:41:22Speaker 02

  My teacher would straight up like teach me techniques on like how to like, like direct physical energy to change the temperature of a thermostat, for example.

• 2:41:31Speaker 01

  So this was like a typical gifted and talented education, not, not typical for the most part. But I've encountered a couple of people like Jordan Josak, who's come on my show.

• 2:41:42Speaker 02

  Jordan's cool.

• 2:41:43Speaker 01

  Who, and Julia Mossberg just talked about her experiences where like they get like gifted and talented education is sort of like this top of funnel for like these deeper psy programs where you're like meant to test mind matter ability. So you were kind of in that?

• 2:41:59Speaker 02

  I have no idea what this was.

• 2:42:01Speaker 01

  Sounds like, yeah.

• 2:42:02Speaker 02

  Looking back, like I have no idea why the heck my teacher gave only like.

• 2:42:07Speaker 01

  Do you remember her name or his name?

• 2:42:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, Ms. Kaur, K A U R.

• 2:42:11Speaker 01

  K A U R.

• 2:42:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:42:13Speaker 01

  She's still alive?

• 2:42:14Speaker 02

  I, I don't know where she is. I don't know who this person was. I don't even know the, I don't know anything about this.

• 2:42:19Speaker 01

  Were you taken out of school for this?

• 2:42:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it would be, I would get taken out of school. I'd get dropped off every week by my parents. Cause like.

• 2:42:27Speaker 01

  Where, what was it like another?

• 2:42:28Speaker 02

  It was a different school or something.

• 2:42:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:42:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:42:32Speaker 01

  And it was in Toronto or?

• 2:42:33Speaker 02

  This was now in British Columbia.

• 2:42:35Speaker 01

  British Columbia, Vancouver or?

• 2:42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, close to Vancouver, like an hour away, hour and a half away.

• 2:42:40Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:42:41Speaker 02

  Vancouver. It was some kind of school for sure.

• 2:42:44Speaker 01

  Did you ever like consume any drinks or food that they gave you?

• 2:42:51Speaker 02

  No, never. I don't think so. Not, not that I know so long ago.

• 2:42:56Speaker 01

  Okay. Okay. But you, so you initially you were, you were given some books and research and then at what point were you told to like actually be a practitioner of like extrasensory?

• 2:43:07Speaker 02

  By year two, I would say. By the first year I figured like, like this is like, I don't know, this is like, how much more of this kind of work am I going to get? Like, when do I actually get to do science and engineering? Like, I thought that's what gifted kids are supposed to be working on, like or whatever. But that day never came, dude. Like my teacher would only give the program teacher, Ms. Kaur, she would only, so yeah, by year two, I started staying, like she would ask me to stay after that program ended, right? And she would, it would be just us, nobody else. And she would like teach me this shit for like 30 minutes. It was, it sounds so strange saying it out loud, but yeah, she would be like,

• 2:43:52Speaker 02

  you need to learn how to meditate and clear your mind and like, here's how.

• 2:43:56Speaker 01

  So this was after the other gifted and talented education students left.

• 2:44:00Speaker 02

  Exactly. It was like 30 minutes I would get, sometimes up to two hours.

• 2:44:05Speaker 01

  And what would she say to do?

• 2:44:06Speaker 02

  She would, she was trying to get me to train my telekinesis and psychokinesis.

• 2:44:11Speaker 01

  What would she say to do?

• 2:44:13Speaker 02

  So she said like, she would, I'll give you one example of an exercise. So she was like, try to put your hands like this and then raise them apart and feel, start visualizing and try to create an energy or pressure between your hands. Your hands should start feeling some sort of resistance from being able to put, be put closer together. Think of it like the, almost like she was trying to induce like a macroscopic biological casimir effect. Like, like you, almost like you can implement like a vacuum field or something.

• 2:44:46Speaker 01

  Sounds like something Yoda would teach Luke Skywalker and Star Wars.

• 2:44:52Speaker 01

  That's so wild.

• 2:44:53Speaker 02

  It would blow my mind too, cause sometimes it worked like, and I, I've never.

• 2:44:57Speaker 01

  What does it worked mean?

• 2:44:58Speaker 02

  It worked mean I could like create some kind of energy or force or something. This sounds so crazy.

• 2:45:05Speaker 01

  You would, you would feel it?

• 2:45:06Speaker 02

  I would physically feel it and then, and that was like the first six months was just focus on creating that field between, between your hands, just focus on creating that like force that didn't exist.

• 2:45:18Speaker 01

  And then what, what happened?

• 2:45:20Speaker 02

  She started teaching how to, me how to redirect it, like send it outwards to physical objects so that can influence it.

• 2:45:27Speaker 01

  And were you ever able to Matilda style, like move things in the room or?

• 2:45:33Speaker 02

  I, I only tried this on thermostats for what it's worth. And yeah, I did actually tried on like that orange too, but when I was conscious it didn't work, when I had this dream that was super vivid, it actually did work. So that's the one caveat.

• 2:45:48Speaker 01

  So you had it, what do you mean? You had a dream and then you interacted with the orange or in the dream or out of the dream?

• 2:45:54Speaker 02

  It, it was in the dream. I'm pretty sure I'm, I was dreaming. That's why I keep saying like dream. I don't know for a fact I was dreaming. I don't know for sure. But I'm sitting in my drawing room and like, I'm practicing this force field stuff. But this time I was just like, can I originate it like, like through, through my head, mind instead, without requiring any initiation, any calming meditation ritual? Can I just like yeet this shit, like YOLO it, you know? And so I just like concentrated and looked at this thing, uh, this orange like on my countertop. And suddenly I feel this, and I'll bring this back to my 2019 experience in a second. I started feeling this tingling sensation. Imagine someone just like flipping a book, like pages in front of you.

• 2:46:39Speaker 02

  You feel like the wind from the book, right? As like flipping. And so I feel that and suddenly bam, the orange starts, it moves like eight, 10 inches. Just like as if something had pushed it. And I was like, holy shit, like how, what, what is that? So why is that relevant? Because in 2019, you asked me, was there any mental telepathy or anything like that? And I felt compelled to tell you two things. Number one, every time I would stop paying attention to the symbols, I would feel that same exact forehead sensation, tingling sensation again. It was so recognizable. I was like, I, what? I know this feeling.

• 2:47:24Speaker 02

  I know this feeling very well, like, like I had this in my dream one time, like, you know, and, and I'd forgotten about the dream on top of that, but like, as soon as I felt it, I remembered all of that. Suddenly Ms. Kaur, all those memories started coming back, everything. And so I noticed and I, and I tested this cause I treated it as a control. I was like, okay, if I don't pay attention, will this feeling come back? So I literally just picked a different part of my room, went over there, went over there. Suddenly bam, tingling feeling. And it's like literally guiding me back to the symbols. Keep looking buddy, like, you know, we're not done, you're not, you gotta pay attention to this.

• 2:47:59Speaker 01

  Do you think the symbols were somehow transmitting information into you or?

• 2:48:03Speaker 02

  Dude, this is where things get so deep and weird. Cause like there's levels to this stuff, like yes, it could be, but that's also the obvious conclusion. Maybe it was just a distraction. Maybe it was to teach me the power of symbols. At some point the symbols were both here and then one set being portrayed right here. Different, different sentences and paragraphs. And I was like, how am I supposed to read both of this at the same time? It was so frustrating. I was like, how do I process both? Like, I don't have an alien brain, people like, you know, give me a break here. Like what is this? So the second thing I felt compelled telling you about is that once the three fingered mofo gets like, he jumps on top.

• 2:48:46Speaker 02

  He does like some pre enchanting things I'll, I can get into later if you want. But walks up to me and he taps me or it taps me on my head, whatever it was, right? Goes like this. And as soon as it was doing that, my mind expected, because it was wearing its suit, something deeply metallic or, or like something like artificial or synthetic. It felt way more like, uh, way more organic than I could have expected. It was very organic. And as soon as it touches me, I get this complete layer of calm and like oneness. And this is where I started getting like just a true download or something, like just thoughts

• 2:49:31Speaker 02

  that I still barely have the words for. I can translate three of those thoughts. The, the first thought was that the universe is teeming with life. We just don't have the instruments for it, but it's everywhere. It is not nearly as dead as we think. The second thought was that I was always going to be experiencing this. I knew exactly what was going to happen, like decades before, like, like before I was even born type shit, like I. I'm here for a reason. I have a mission. I literally wanted to live this life as Deep Prasad or whatever. Not even, that name didn't even come to mind. Just, I just wanted to live this life.

• 2:50:12Speaker 02

  And like, have this moment and this experience. It was like, pre, like, yeah, preordained or something.

• 2:50:19Speaker 01

  Felt destined.

• 2:50:20Speaker 02

  So weird.

• 2:50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:22Speaker 02

  So weird. Um, and keep in mind, I'm a total militant atheist before this, right? Like, I didn't believe in any of this stuff, not even spirituality. And I was barely sold on consciousness, by the way, like, as a thing. Like, I wasn't sure about functionalism and whatnot. And then the third thought, and this is even somehow weirder than the second one, is the universe is in the room with us right now, and it's alive and well, and it keeps track of everyone and everything.

• 2:50:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:50:49Speaker 02

  It knows everybody, every being, every consciousness. It keeps track of it like a damn database or something. And is fully aware of everything that's happening, including this moment right now. So it was so trippy.

• 2:51:01Speaker 01

  Wild. How long do you think this event, or how long do you think this whole thing took?

• 2:51:07Speaker 02

  Twenty minutes.

• 2:51:08Speaker 01

  Twenty minutes?

• 2:51:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:51:09Speaker 01

  And that's because you estimate that and did you?

• 2:51:12Speaker 02

  Just because of all the things that happened, all the scenes, all the mind eye switch, all the stuff being shown.

• 2:51:18Speaker 01

  Was there any missing time? Was there like, did the time, did more than that elapse?

• 2:51:22Speaker 02

  So that's the weird thing. I, I had the opposite of missing time. Almost no, no time passed.

• 2:51:28Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:51:29Speaker 02

  Not a single minute, really.

• 2:51:31Speaker 01

  So it was like an expansion of a short amount of time or something?

• 2:51:34Speaker 02

  Pretty much.

• 2:51:35Speaker 01

  Fascinating.

• 2:51:35Speaker 02

  Both, both are possible through space-time metric engineering, by the way. You can totally change the proper metric of a particular human in the world line.

• 2:51:42Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:51:43Speaker 02

  By isolating that human.

• 2:51:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:51:46Speaker 02

  To saying.

• 2:51:47Speaker 01

  Did you have any marks on your body or, or hardware implanted or anything like that? No.

• 2:51:53Speaker 02

  Uh, the, the, the only thing that disdwned to me was right after this, I developed a frickin' red ass eye. Like a super, and it wasn't pink eye or anything like that. It was just super red, like I had a reaction to something.

• 2:52:07Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:52:07Speaker 02

  But, um, I experienced very weird electrical effects and phenomenon that I still can't explain. Um, my phone, even after factory resetting it, it would charge instantly for the first few days, like, instantly, as soon as I put it in charging, even if it's dead. Um, thought that was just a factory defect. Didn't seem like it.

• 2:52:26Speaker 01

  That's common too, among experiencers, electromagnetic anomalies.

• 2:52:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's so strange. I would walk by streetlights, bus lamps, like bus signs and stuff. Just shut off, totally shut off.

• 2:52:37Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:52:37Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, and the, I think the most intense experience was, I was incapable of feeling anger or stress or anxiety for like three weeks. It was so strange.

• 2:52:49Speaker 01

  So you felt good?

• 2:52:50Speaker 02

  I felt really good. I felt so good that I was like, dude, did I lose my agency? Cause like, I, I, I didn't, I didn't earn this level of like,

• 2:52:58Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:52:58Speaker 02

  self-regulation at all. Like, it just came out of nowhere.

• 2:53:02Speaker 01

  Do you think it installed any scientific ideas, the experience?

• 2:53:05Speaker 02

  I, I don't think it installed scientific ideas, and maybe it did. I, I can't tell for a fact, uh, one way or another. What it definitely did do was reorient me. Suddenly I went from just wanting to, uh, help the techno-capital machine, the economic system, build quantum computers only for materials discovery, to suddenly, holy shit, we need to expand the definition of consciousness. I want to make contact with non-human intelligence. Um, I think it's super important that we accelerate our propulsion in physics and science well beyond what quantum computing can do. Like, my horizon and orientation went way more towards consciousness, uh, and space-time than just, how do we make companies more money?

• 2:53:49Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:53:49Speaker 02

  That was the biggest difference.

• 2:53:50Speaker 01

  That's beautiful, man. Well, Deep, this has been amazing.

• 2:53:54Speaker 02

  Pleasure, brother. Such a pleasure.

• 2:53:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like we gotta end on that. It's crazy high note. I mean, what, what an amazing, remarkable experience. And you're just so fun to talk to about all of these disparate, but.

• 2:54:06Speaker 02

  So are you, my man.

• 2:54:07Speaker 01

  Thank you. But, uh, but increasing in relevance macro trends that are converging into some form, sort of apotheosis or apex point, omega point.

• 2:54:16Speaker 02

  It's so beautiful.

• 2:54:17Speaker 01

  Very exciting, man. And, uh, yeah, I always love talking to you.

• 2:54:20Speaker 02

  Even the singularity.

• 2:54:21Speaker 01

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• 2:55:02Speaker 01

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• 2:56:50Speaker 03

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• 2:57:20Speaker 08

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• 2:58:45Speaker 11

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• 2:58:47Speaker 12

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• 2:58:50Speaker 11

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• 2:59:01Speaker 10

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