16 Alien Bodies Crashed HERE… And We Just Found Evidence

Our American Alchemists this week are Scott and Suzanne Ramsey, the husband-and-wife research team who have spent decades chasing the truth behind the Aztec, New Mexico UFO crash. --------------------- You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! Dose: New customers can save 35% on your first month of subscription by going to https://dosedaily.co/JESSE or entering JESSE at checkout. Quo: Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to https://Quo.com/JESSE Perplexity: For a limited time only, our listeners can try Perplexity Computer for FREE. Head to https://PPLX.ai/JESSE Grab Your American Alchemy Merchandise Here! https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ --------------------- Scott and Suzanne have interviewed dozens of firsthand witnesses, tracked down FBI files, and traced a decades-long smear campaign that got Aztec branded a "hoax" — even though it may be one of the most thoroughly documented UFO crash retrievals on record. In this episode, we take the Ramseys' research directly to Hart Canyon, where witnesses described a 100-foot craft, 16 alien bodies, and a Baptist minister called in to pray over the dead. We dig into the FBI documents, the CIA-linked debunker who tried to bury the story, and the string of researchers who died just as they got close to the truth. Learn more about Scott and Suzanne Ramsey's research and get their new book, It Came to Earth at Aztec, New Mexico Revealed: The Recovery of a UFO - https://www.theaztecincident.com/ Follow the Aztec UFO Incident research: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aztecufoincident Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheAztecIncidentRecoveryAtHartCanyon X: https://x.com/AztecUFO --------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/american-alchemy-3758eda5-237b-45f1-b043-da80a300714e Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] --------------------- TIMESTAMPS0:00 - Introduction 5:30 - Meet the Ramseys 6:17 - How Scott found the case 8:38 - Arriving in Aztec 9:35 - Why the town stayed quiet 11:32 - How many witnesses 12:19 - March 24, 1948: Cuba, New Mexico 13:31 - Valentine Archuleta sees it come down 15:49 - Doug Noland and the saucer on the mesa 17:23 - More witnesses arrive 20:39 - Inside the craft 21:24 - Sponsors (Dose) 22:59 - The bodies 23:50 - Solon Brown, Baptist minister 24:59 - A helicopter in 1948 26:12 - The military takes the mesa 29:48 - Scientists study the craft 31:51 - Moving the craft off the mesa 35:03 - Erasing the retrieval team 38:04 - Fred Reed re-landscapes the site 40:24 - The marble found at the site 41:02 - Part two: Frank Scully 44:13 - J. P. Cahn 45:33 - Silas Newton 47:50 - Leo Gebauer's FBI file 49:10 - The 1953 fraud case 51:17 - What if they were set up 53:14 - George Koehler and the Denver lecture 54:08 - Newton as Scientist X 57:32 - Sponsors (Quo) 59:01 - Sponsors (Perplexity) 1:02:32 - John Torrence Tate 1:06:33 - The nine scientists 1:10:29 - The 4602d and UFOB reports 1:13:02 - Taken to Wright Field 1:16:36 - Could radar have downed it 1:21:07 - Jake Barber on microwave weapons 1:22:24 - The Hottel Memo 1:25:01 - Bill Steinman 1:30:01 - Chris Evans and Alice Scully 1:33:50 - A visitor at the crash site 1:38:24 - Cattle mutilations 1:40:35 - Testing the marble 1:47:10 - The break-in 1:50:03 - Credits and the Ramseys' book Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  On March 25th, 1948, something crashed in the New Mexico desert.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  An 100-foot flying saucer, complete with 16 charred alien bodies, seen by multiple eyewitnesses from different vantage points. We have four of them on record.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  The UFO came from that direction over there, but it was making this sound, like, almost whistling.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Welcome to Aztec, Roswell's younger, weirder, scarlet-lettered sister. It might be the most overlooked crash in UFO history.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Some people were talking about it in the news. They got calls from the military. Stop, don't say anything more. They were out there taking pictures.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  With more evidence attached to it than any other in the United States, and certainly more than the almighty Roswell.

• 1:21Speaker 03

  We look over at the mesa, and there's this red light. And we're like, oh, man, what is that? Someone's out there. Well, then all of a sudden, there's...

• 1:28Speaker 01

  But for reasons we'll get into, very few people, even many die-hard UFO believers, want to touch it. Aztec was the first case that was written about. It was viciously, viciously smeared. The Wikipedia page literally calls it "Aztec Crashed Saucer Hoax."

• 1:47Speaker 01

  But what if the hoax was manufactured? Never before seen FBI documents, CIA disinformation agents, break-ins, and a cover-up that keeps going till today? In this episode, we'll take you deep into Hart Canyon, where we'll stand on the exact spot where witnesses claim that 16 alien bodies were laid out while a Baptist preacher prayed over them at the request of the military. My old friend Chris Ramsey from the incredible YouTube channel Area 52 joins the investigation. We'll follow the bizarre trail of dead and uprooted trees allegedly left behind by the craft and its recovery. We'll even examine a polished marble

• 2:30Speaker 01

  that was found six inches deep at the crash site decades earlier. A piece we send out for testing and get results on by the end of this episode. And the craft itself sounds straight out of Star Trek, with an upper deck, seamless construction, even hieroglyphic writing. Apparently, many of the scientists who studied it could only stay inside for 20 minutes at a time before experiencing bad side effects. But this isn't just a story about a crash. It's about the town of Aztec itself and the strange, uninvited visitors that apparently never stopped coming.

• 3:09Speaker 04

  Looked like a surgeon had taken it off, but no blood. What was your first instinct? That a human had done it, or that something else? That something else had done it.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Where the government once detonated an atomic bomb underground to blast open natural gas reserves.

• 3:23Speaker 05

  Three, two, one, gas buggy.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  And right next door is Farmington, where back in 1950, half the town watched hundreds of silver disks swarm across the sky. An event that came to be known as the Farmington Armada. The first day, there were a few. The second day, there were too many to count.

• 3:46Speaker 06

  We might potentially be standing exactly where alien bodies were laying at rest.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  To give us the tour on the town, the crash site, and get us clued in on the entire history, we had the best tour guides in the world, Scott and Suzanne Ramsey.

• 4:05Speaker 07

  It's one of the most comprehensive cases that exist. It's multi-dimensional, not just one level of I saw this or somebody told me this. We feel confident, after all these years and a lot of money, a lot of time, that it actually occurred.

• 4:21Speaker 08

  Would you be willing to say how much you spent in total? We spent over a half million dollars.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Wow. This North Carolina-based couple took the mantle from famed UFO researcher Bill Steinman. At least twice now, Aztec researchers, set to meet with the Ramseys to share their research, ended up dead.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  Chris Evans meets with Alice Scully, and he becomes aware that there's real documentation around the Aztec crash, wants to urgently meet with you guys, and then what happens next?

• 4:50Speaker 08

  He died the day that he was coming to see Suzanne.

• 4:55Speaker 07

  No way. And when we got the news, it was like somebody punched us.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  If things couldn't get any stranger, when we finally reached the crash site ourselves, someone was waiting for us. A stranger with curious ties to the Air Force. He showed up at Hart Canyon, which is very obscure and hard to get to, at the same time we did. He also seemed to know a lot more about all of us than he let on. Without further ado, the UFO crash at Aztec, New Mexico, with this week's amazing American alchemists, Scott and Suzanne Ramsey.

• 5:33Speaker 09

  Ignition sequence five.

• 5:37Speaker 09

  How is this functioning? Nothing too unusual about that.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Death, existence cannot longer be denied.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Our trip doesn't start in New Mexico. It starts in Mooresville, North Carolina. This is where Scott and Suzanne live. The Ramseys are the picture of persistence. They've poured over a half a million dollars of their own money over decades trying to get to the truth on Aztec. And when I say they are trying to get to the truth, these are researchers that love when misconceptions get debunked.

• 6:24Speaker 07

  He started out to prove it or disprove it, and that's always been our philosophy.

• 6:28Speaker 08

  I didn't care.

• 6:29Speaker 07

  If it shows true, fine. If it doesn't, that's fine, too. But at least you can put that to bed.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Scott and Suzanne were literally brought together by the Aztec case. Scott was the first to learn about it while on a business trip in 1988. He was in Denver, but got delayed due to weather problems, so he took a trip to Farmington, New Mexico to meet a potential customer. While waiting on that meeting, he overheard a couple of Navajo men sitting there, talking about going hunting by the old, quote-unquote, "crash site."

• 7:03Speaker 08

  He said, "Oh, by the old crash site."

• 7:05Speaker 10

  The wreck is outside Aztec. Aztec? What did you find out there?

• 7:09Speaker 08

  So I probed it a little bit and said, you know, what are you talking about, "crash site"? "Oh, it's an old wives' tale. Who knows? UFO crashed out there, late 40s, early 50s. Who knows?" Said, "So it's like folklore?" "Well, kinda. You think it happened? I don't know. People think it did."

• 7:26Speaker 09

  This is the turn. You miss it, you keep driving.

• 7:28Speaker 08

  Really? Because I want to hear where this crash site was.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  From that point forward, Scott was hooked. He started his own vigilante research efforts. Suzanne was born in South Dakota to a mother who was obsessed with UFOs. An obsession sparked by the first book on Aztec, "Behind the Flying Saucers", by Variety columnist Frank Scully. Suzanne's mother was so inspired by Scully that she moved the entire family to Flora Vista, a suburb of Aztec. She went to work for a local radio station, where in 1999, she ran into Scott, who was quickly becoming one of the deepest researchers on the UFO incident. The rest was history. They've never given up on this case. They have a shipping container worth of data,

• 8:16Speaker 01

  documents, and artifacts at their place in North Carolina. And they've probably been to the Aztec crash site over 100 times. Their primary income isn't through UFO research, and whatever little money they've made by selling books pales in comparison to what they've spent. Suzanne runs a root beer company she calls Uncle Scott's, that she named after Scott. And Scott himself literally has a business which fabricates components for the national labs all over the country. Name me another person who works directly with PhD physicists at Los Alamos, but has also amassed more information than anyone on the planet about a UFO crash in his spare time. And he's done it without a clearance.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Now it was time to go directly to the scene of the crime. Welcome to Aztec, New Mexico, population 6,800. UFO crashes, maybe one, depending on who you ask. For a town where an 100-foot flying saucer supposedly came down, they're weirdly low on alien merchandise. Meanwhile, its older sibling, Roswell, built an alien empire with its own gravitational pull. It has a UFO museum, gift shops, streetlights with alien eyes, even a glow-in-the-dark spacewalk with a wormhole you can walk through. And that's all due to a saucer that crashed into pieces in 1947, 100 miles away. Unlike the UFO mecca Roswell has created, Aztec has done practically nothing.

• 9:52Speaker 07

  Roswell and the folks of Roswell have embraced it as an opportunity to celebrate it, and it's a financial benefit to them. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's what they've chosen to do. Aztec, the fact that it was professed to be a hoax, I think shed some shame on it. And it embarrassed people to even be associated with it.

• 10:17Speaker 11

  Here's the tipping point. Aztec's right here. And if they would politicize, well, not politicize, if they would advertise that and do that, you would go, "Meow."

• 10:29Speaker 02

  It is a little bit odd, but there are some people that, you know, just, you know, want to shut it down. I kind of don't have an opinion about it one way or the other. I think it's interesting. Something happened.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  So what repelled Aztec from its own biggest story? What left the residents split between believers and skeptics?

• 10:49Speaker 08

  We get a lot of people that email us from Denmark, from Sweden, from Germany, from South Africa. "Hey, we're coming to, we're gonna fly to Albuquerque, you know, going to JFK, JFK to Albuquerque, then we're gonna drive up to Aztec. Can you give us some coordinates?" And we, "Yeah, great. Tell us how you liked it." We've never had a negative feedback. Not coordinates here to the crash site, where we just spent the whole day. You ever been out there?

• 11:16Speaker 02

  I've been out there once.

• 11:20Speaker 07

  I think next time that they crash, they just need to make it more convenient for us. That's the only thing that I would wish.

• 11:27Speaker 06

  How are you feeling?

• 11:28Speaker 04

  I feel like it feels kind of trippy, energy, like interesting energy around. Yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 06

  Do you guys still get that feeling coming here?

• 11:38Speaker 07

  It's exciting for Scott and I every time that we come here. But then for somebody new to see it and experience it, and you're certainly taking the time to actually live it.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  And how is anyone sure that this didn't happen? When Scott himself has talked to four direct witnesses and countless others with second-degree connections.

• 12:01Speaker 08

  There was probably 16 or 18 witnesses.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  How many have you spoken to directly?

• 12:07Speaker 08

  Let's see, Doug Nolan, Ken Farley, the preacher, the preacher's son, one other gentleman.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  So yeah, if you were to kind of add up, you know, the people you've had direct contact with and people where maybe you interviewed a second-degree connection that you felt was trusted.

• 12:25Speaker 08

  Son, daughter, granddaughter, yeah, quite a bit.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Would that move it over eight, over 50% or?

• 12:31Speaker 08

  Oh, yeah. We might be at 75%.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 12:35Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Here is the best account of what those witnesses say actually happened.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Cuba, New Mexico, about 100 miles south of Aztec on Old Highway 44.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  It's the night of March 24th, 1948. A part-time cop named Manuel Sandoval ends up at the hotel café with a New Mexico Highway patrolman named Andy Andrews, swapping notes over coffee and pie.

• 13:11Speaker 08

  They would meet for coffee at the little restaurant. And they'd have pie and coffee and talk about things that were going on. And the subject of UFOs came up just about every night.

• 13:22Speaker 12

  Mrs. Herrera called in lights again last night, third time this week.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Weird lights cutting across the sky.

• 13:29Speaker 12

  Next time I see one of those things, I'm gonna follow it.

• 13:35Speaker 12

  In that truck, you can't catch a tractor.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  So when a disc comes wobbling low over Cuba that night, Sandoval does the thing he'd been saying he would do. He goes after it all night. It doesn't really glide. It flutters like a leaf.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  80 miles up that same road, rancher Valentin Archuleta walks out before sunrise to let his sheep out to pasture. His family has worked this land since the late 1700s, when they settled here under a Spanish land grant. Generations later, his granddaughter still farms those same fields.

• 14:22Speaker 13

  His full name was Telesfoto Valentin Archuleta. He was an awesome, awesome grandfather, very respected in these parts. He was a baton death march survivor.

• 14:33Speaker 14

  The death march, the forced march of the American prisoners by the Japanese, which caused many to die. These were the troops the general had in mind when he returned to the Philippines.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  From the west, he hears a swoosh, like a vacuum imploding. Then a sonic boom.

• 14:54Speaker 13

  So he looked up and he saw it.

• 14:58Speaker 13

  And he saw it hit right here.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  The disc clips the mesa right across the road from his ranch, throwing sparks down the cliff face and starting to wobble. Then it somehow restabilizes temporarily, but continues to lose altitude, dropping north toward Heart Canyon. The streak that the craft left on the cliff can still be seen there to this day. And Scott Ramsey put himself in serious danger just to find this mark.

• 15:29Speaker 08

  If you want to, you can hang by one hand and pretend you have a broken rib. Oh, you're there. Here, go down.

• 15:39Speaker 06

  It'd be more interesting to just grab like a scoop of whatever's in that groove.

• 15:42Speaker 08

  My concern from a scientific point, would you contaminate the groove with whatever you're doing?

• 15:47Speaker 06

  No one else is doing anything. You might as well just grab a sample and have it tested.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Whatever he just saw flying across the sky, he knew exactly who to call.

• 15:59Speaker 13

  He calls the Air Force. And he says, "Hey, one of your planes crashed over here. You need to come get it."

• 16:06Speaker 01

  It takes three tries before anyone at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque takes foul seriously.

• 16:12Speaker 13

  So he goes back down the American tower, "Hey, I told you one of your planes had crashed over here." And that's when everything got started.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  About eight miles away, 19-year-old oil field worker Doug Nolan is picking up his supervisor, Bill Ferguson. They work for El Paso Natural Gas.

• 16:33Speaker 15

  Morning, Fergie.

• 16:34Speaker 16

  Change of plans.

• 16:35Speaker 15

  We're not going south?

• 16:35Speaker 16

  Brush fire out on Heart Canyon near the tanks.

• 16:37Speaker 15

  How near?

• 16:38Speaker 16

  Near enough. I'd like to be there already.

• 16:40Speaker 08

  Brush fires around oil tanks are not a good thing.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  The oil tanks are fine.

• 16:47Speaker 17

  Then what the hell are they looking at?

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Doug and Bill crest the rim of the mesa, and there it is.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  A flying saucer, 100 feet across. What looks like dull aluminum, just sitting there in dirt with no stands or landing gear, resting on its belly at a slight 12-degree tilt. It's completely seamless with no rivets, bolts, or weld marks.

• 17:14Speaker 08

  It looked like a very gentle landing. The craft was not dented, torn up, anything like that.

• 17:20Speaker 07

  When you look at exactly which direction and how it traveled, it was due north exactly. And this is actually due north exactly from the Archuleta Ranch. So it would be much easier to just land here, almost. And as we've talked about, it was more of a soft landing than a crash.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Meanwhile, coming up the canyon road is Manuel Sandoval, our cop from Cuba, New Mexico. He spots the work trucks parked at the base of the mesa, so he starts climbing up the hillside. Around the same time, two ranchers pull up, an older couple, Mr. and Mrs. Knight.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Five miles away, in Cedar Hill, 20-something-year-old Ken Farley is picking up his friend. He had just come back from visiting an aunt in Durango, Colorado. And now the two were about to hit the road for San Diego to see some friends.

• 18:17Speaker 15

  There's been trucks going up that old road all morning. Police car went up too. Somebody might be hurt out there. Let's go.

• 18:30Speaker 08

  I said to Doug, "Well, how many people can you identify?" And he went through the list. He said, "But there was a group of guys, two or maybe three on the western side of the mesa, that didn't really have a lot to do with us." Well, that was Ken Farley and his buddy.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  50 years later, dying of a lung disease in Phoenix, Ken Farley could still describe the craft in perfect detail.

• 18:55Speaker 08

  At the end, he said,

• 18:58Speaker 08

  "And around the center section of the craft, there were three brass or copper or gold lines that ran all the way around it." Well, that fit perfect with Doug Nolan.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  And then all of a sudden, Doug, for reasons I deeply respect, climbs on top of it.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Mrs. Knight isn't too thrilled about that.

• 19:23Speaker 18

  Get down off of that thing. You don't know what it is.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Decades later, Doug still remembered Mrs. Knight giving them hell about getting near that damn saucer.

• 19:33Speaker 08

  Doug, not being that familiar with all the locals, I said, "How did you know the Knights? Why didn't?" "They were telling us to stay the hell away from the craft." And I asked Bill Ferguson, "Who are they?" Bill Ferguson said, "Well, they're telling us to stay away from the craft. There are ranchers out here, so they know it doesn't belong here."

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Up on the hull, Doug and Bill study what look like portholes around the dome of the craft. From a distance, they look like mirrors. Then they spot a perfectly round hole in one of them, about the size of a quarter, punched clean through the glass. Doug was specific about that hole for the rest of his life. Doug puts his eye in the punctured porthole. He sees two small figures slumped over a panel.

• 20:22Speaker 15

  Fergie.

• 20:24Speaker 08

  What?

• 20:25Speaker 15

  There's people in it.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Then Bill grabs a fire pole and pokes it through the hole in the porthole.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Trying to nudge awake the craft's inhabitants.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  He must have hit a button or triggered something because at that exact moment, a hatch door from the belly of the craft drops open with the whole gang watching. For a second, no one moves.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  According to Doug, he and Bill enter the craft.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  The interior is clean with nothing burned or damaged. They find the two figures still slumped over the control panel, both wearing one-piece blue suits with no insignias. And they're small, only three to four feet tall. Then Doug hears someone shouting from the upper deck of the craft.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Most reports say there were 14 to 16 of them.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  All charred or burned in the same blue jumpsuits.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Before we dive into this wild episode, I want to give a huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, Dose. Dose for your liver is an extremely high-quality drinkable supplement. It tastes absolutely delicious. It helps you feel your best and all you have to do is take it once a day. As you might know, I love nerding out and finding the best new health and wellness hacks. And it's super easy to overlook the biggest internal organ in your body, the liver. It's your body's most metabolically active organ. It runs over 500 functions every single day. It processes everything you consume. It filters it daily and it supports your energy levels and your digestion. What I appreciate most about Dose is that they actually have serious research behind it.

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• 23:22Speaker 01

  Now, back to today's episode.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Most reports say there were 14 to 16 of them.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  All charred or burned in the same blue jumpsuits.

• 23:43Speaker 08

  My only theory, and that's all it is, is perhaps that hole,

• 23:49Speaker 08

  like I said earlier, may have been a

• 23:53Speaker 08

  a weapon, a 50-caliber rifle, machine gun, or whatever. When it was flying over Los Alamos and maybe mass decompression.

• 24:02Speaker 06

  Possibly some type of gas within the chamber that as soon as it was breached by a spark would ignite some type of instant explosion that just like at the same time that, you know.

• 24:13Speaker 04

  Or maybe electromagnetic damage before they understood how to describe, you know, that.

• 24:18Speaker 06

  Sure, yeah, or electrical charge or something.

• 24:21Speaker 04

  Electrical charge.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Meanwhile, Baptist minister Solon Brown is cruising down the highway outside Aztec when he sees the mass of cars at Hart Canyon.

• 24:33Speaker 08

  He was a roaming Baptist minister that was in charge of many churches. And he went out there to open up the First Baptist Church in Mankos, Colorado, which is maybe 40-minute drive from the crash site.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  He pulls over.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Solon walks up to the opening of the saucer and leans in.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  But doesn't go inside. Years later, he said he saw a few of the beings, maybe three, slumped over some kind of table or panel, an account that's notably consistent with all of the others.

• 25:11Speaker 08

  And he was shocked that they were so childlike, not really the typical alien described to us. They were more childlike, no hair, one-piece blue jumpsuits, no insignias, no anything to give rank, serial number.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Then the group sees something that's almost as strange and futuristic as a flying saucer, a helicopter.

• 25:36Speaker 08

  I think Ken was the first one to tell me about the helicopter. He said, all of a sudden, a very small helicopter showed up and kind of circled around the crash site and then took off to the northeast. They all admit seeing the helicopter. I mean, that was one very consistent story. And Doug said, I didn't know what was more spectacular. This disc laying on the mesa or a helicopter. And I said, what are you talking about? Well, helicopters just came out in 48.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  In 1948, most people had never seen one in real life. And now here's one circling right over their heads.

• 26:11Speaker 08

  But just over the years, the consistency in the story, what the craft looked like, they all talked about the hole in the porthole. All talked about the, about the same time the military showed up.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  The rest of the story sounds like the familiar UFO crash retrieval playbook. The military swarms the scene, seals it off from the public and threatens the witnesses to keep quiet.

• 27:10Speaker 08

  They all agree that nobody had any insignias to identify who they were, not Army, Marine Corps, whatever. The guys in the military were not young guys.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Most look like they're in their 30s or 40s, mature, gruff and extremely well-trained, moving precisely and deliberately.

• 27:32Speaker 08

  Doug laughed and said it was like a bunch of drill sergeants, you know, talking to you at the same time.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  And they seem to know exactly how to secure a site and pull off a recovery. Roswell was less than a year earlier and everyone knows how badly they botched that operation. But this time, the military knew exactly what it was doing.

• 27:53Speaker 08

  Oh yeah, they learned a lot in eight months. Roswell, they did a press release, put it on the front page of the paper. And then of course came up and denied it and came up with a weather balloon theory after that. Now Aztec was well-oiled. You weren't out here today. There's nothing out here. There never was.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  When the military tells Ken to beat it, he doesn't listen.

• 28:15Speaker 08

  Ah, he mouthed off and said, you guys don't have any jurisdiction and I'm not in the military. You can't tell me what to do. And I think he got the butt of a gun in his gut for talking that way.

• 28:33Speaker 08

  By this time, the military had started pulling bodies out. There were 14 to 16 bodies at the crash site. And one of the military members said, well, you know, basically father, we're glad you're here. Can you give these bodies last rites? And he said, well, I'm not Catholic. I'm a Baptist preacher, but I'd be more than happy to say a prayer over them. And by the way, what happened? And they said, we really can't get into details.

• 28:59Speaker 12

  May your souls find the peace they deserve and rest in eternal peace.

• 29:04Speaker 08

  And then was told to leave, which he did.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  And the bodies, if they didn't look like what you typically expect in an alien, you know, some of the aliens that we see depicted gray and stuff are childlike, what exactly did they look like?

• 29:18Speaker 08

  Children.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  By mid-morning, the military pretty much owns that mesa. No one can get through.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Two girls on horseback try to pass but are stopped by plainclothes men standing besides a parked Jeep.

• 29:36Speaker 08

  Very friendly, very casually dressed, said, girls, I'm sorry, you can't go any further.

• 29:43Speaker 10

  There's a situation up the road. It isn't safe. Go on home. Go on now.

• 29:47Speaker 08

  So I'm hearing this story and I'm thinking, God, what a good memory. And I said, and she's senior to my age. And I said, I gotta ask.

• 30:00Speaker 08

  How do you know it was March 25th? And she said, because it was my birthday.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Later that night, Solon Brown is in the living room of Bruce Sayer, a deacon with whom he is discussing plans for building a church. Solon tells him about the profound experience.

• 30:22Speaker 08

  You don't believe me.

• 30:23Speaker 09

  I believe you. I'm sitting here in shock is all.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Solon breaks down and cries. 60 years later, Bruce Sayer's son would tell Scott Ramsey why he never forgot that night. It was the first time that he'd ever seen a grown man cry.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  For the weeks following the crash, the military camps out at the mesa. Scientists are brought in to study the craft. When this group was originally brought out to the crash site, they spent the first two days hanging back and waving Geiger counters at it. They were worried about radiation. Sounds like a group that might have been briefed on UFOs, which are notorious for emitting radiation.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  They enter further and observe strange hieroglyphic symbols. They can't stay inside the craft for longer than 20 minutes at a time because some negative energy overcomes them.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  A gloomy feeling of doom that witnesses like Bob Lazar would describe years later.

• 31:30Speaker 06

  It's a real ominous creepy feeling. And a lot of it is because of the black. Just it doesn't, it doesn't look right.

• 31:41Speaker 07

  There was also a nurse that checked each one of the scientists for the length of time that they would be in the craft because they became sick to their stomach if they were in more than 20 minutes.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  The Ramses would later place nine scientists in total on that mesa. More on exactly how they got there later. But every name on their list traces back to the same wartime science network run by one man. Vannevar Bush, which means whoever was making these calls wasn't improvising. And they probably came from the deepest part of America's nuclear program.

• 32:22Speaker 06

  So, I mean, 100 feet. Have you guys measured out how big 100 feet would have been? Like, what's the size? I'm bad with like scale. Well, that's 100 yards, a third of a football field. Yeah, again, I'm Canadian. You need to...

• 32:35Speaker 08

  30 meters.

• 32:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:37Speaker 08

  33 meters.

• 32:40Speaker 06

  Okay, yeah. Wow, okay. So like from there to like there, pretty much. Yeah. That's massive.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Then it's time to transfer the craft out of there. A bulldozer cuts a new road up to the mesa, clearing pinion trees as it climbs.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  And while all of this is happening, a spring storm moves across the mesa.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Snow blows sideways through the site. It gathers on the ground, on the rocks, but not on the craft. Snow strikes the saucer and disappears. Nothing accumulates. That detail comes from a young airman on perimeter security named Donald Bass. He was flown up from Roswell and driven in from Durango. And he slept in the bed of a truck for two weeks while the recovery took place. At the top, crews pour a concrete slab and set rebar into the wet foundation. Two cranes work in tandem over the saucer. A gear ring at its base is removed.

• 33:45Speaker 06

  Look at this. Is this the crane spot? Oh, yeah, it is.

• 33:49Speaker 08

  Concrete slab.

• 33:50Speaker 06

  No way.

• 33:52Speaker 08

  It used to be in perfect condition. We have souvenir home. That's what they do. They come out here and bust it up with the rocks to take home.

• 33:59Speaker 06

  So this is a poured concrete. Why would you pour concrete out here?

• 34:05Speaker 01

  If you're going to drag an 100-foot-in-diameter craft off a mesa with a crane, you need solid footing. And silt isn't solid. So somewhere out here in 1948, someone in a hurry mixed concrete. And concrete is hard to clean up. Debunkers called this concrete slab an oil well cap. But there's an oil well cap that's next to the site. And it's dramatically bigger than this concrete slab.

• 34:31Speaker 06

  I don't know if you just want to grab a picture of that. It's like a medium to large one there.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  That's crazy. Instead, this thing looks like it was built bespoke and ad hoc to drag a craft out of the area. When I asked Scott and Suzanne where that whole oil well cap cover story came from, they said it was a famous debunker named Carl Flock. Flock is a self-reported former CIA agent. So I'll let you come to your own conclusions there.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Then, something called a dragon wagon begins backing its way up the newly cut road. This was a heavy-duty tank transport that the Army used during World War II.

• 35:11Speaker 08

  They, on the back of the dragon wagon, had two stabilizing footers. When they tried to put the arms down, it just kept going into the silt. Put something heavy under it, something solid. How do you take a craft that big, move it down a steep terrain, and then get it out of there?

• 35:34Speaker 08

  Frank Scully, who wrote Behind the Flying Saucers, talked about the craft cable part in sections. So if we can take the craft and take it into reasonable pieces, getting it out of there would require one thing. And that was something Suzanne didn't want to hear. But reenacting it.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  How much did you spend on reenacting the crash retrieval for the Aztec craft?

• 36:00Speaker 04

  In excess of $14,000 that week.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Scott actually tracked down an Air Force officer who claims that he helped them make the entire Aztec retrieval team disappear, at least on paper. In their earlier books, the Ramses pseudonymously called him George. 200 people worked that recovery and that he was in charge of updating their personnel records daily for two weeks, making it look like the retrieval team in Aztec wasn't actually in Aztec at all. After this interview, they were finally able to release his real name, Tech Sergeant Dick Harper.

• 36:38Speaker 08

  He said, "I was never at the crash site." He said, "My job was basically keeping personnel records." A little more detail, what's that mean? He said, "Well, roughly 200 people were involved in the whole Aztec recovery. So I kept 200 personnel records to make sure nobody was ever really in Aztec." I said, "Well, can I have more detail on that?" He said, "Well, let's just say that week that you may have been there or the two-week operation you were there, I'd have you at MacDill. And then I'd have you spraining an ankle playing volleyball. And then I'd have you in the infirmary for a few days. So if you ever come public and talk about it, I can, the Air Force can go, 'Well, that's not true. You were at MacDill that week or that month or that year or whatever.'"

• 37:23Speaker 08

  And he said, "That was my full-time job." He said, "I did see intel briefings on it, and I saw black and white photos of it." And he said, "And it was a very large craft."

• 37:38Speaker 01

  The evidence that something crashed at Aztec is overwhelming. Even the trees at the Hart Canyon crash site are splayed outwards as if a craft was dragged through a very specific path.

• 37:51Speaker 08

  Back when I first started talking to Bill, Bill Steinman, he brought up an interesting point. We were comparing notes about the crash site. Once we confirmed, we were both at the same site. And Bill said, "You know, if they drag that thing up to the dragon wagon, they use soft trees to do it over. These aren't going to hurt anything." And he said, "Notice they're all splayed to the northeast." I said, "You know, Bill, I noticed a lot of damage to trees. I never noticed they were splayed to the northeast."

• 38:24Speaker 08

  And as we walked back to the car, they're all laid down. My joke is, they don't have hurricanes here like we have in North Carolina. And something laid them all down."

• 38:41Speaker 01

  So they managed to get the craft out, but the mesa was a wreck. Drag marks, broken and bent trees, and a path of destruction pointing in one direction. If you're running the most secretive recovery in the country, that's a loose end you don't want to leave. It's not enough to just remove the craft. You have to fix the scene. And in 1999, a man who claims he was sent to the crash site to fix it, to paper it over for the government, wrote Scott a letter. His name is Fred Reed.

• 39:13Speaker 08

  All we brought today was a letter he wrote me in 99. But we have another letter he wrote afterwards. I thought they were together. And this is the original. It's quite interesting. Dated March 27, 1999.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And was he on the crash retrieval team for Aztec?

• 39:30Speaker 08

  Nah, he came, the craft was gone. Everything was gone. They came basically to re-landscape the mesa. It was basically not a typical crash site that they cleaned up before. But it looked like a lot of heavy equipment had gone in there. But I thought it was interesting. He said that they, this was not the first site they cleaned up. But years later, he learned that it was a flying saucer.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 39:59Speaker 07

  And their focus was to try and make it appear as if...

• 40:02Speaker 08

  Nothing happened.

• 40:03Speaker 07

  Nothing happened there. Problem is that later on, we had the opportunity to see an aerial view. And you can actually see how the...

• 40:12Speaker 08

  They're very, there's a section, they're very symmetrical.

• 40:16Speaker 07

  They're in lines. And of course, nature, organic, is random. It's not in a line, so...

• 40:23Speaker 01

  But these are in line.

• 40:24Speaker 07

  But these are in lines, yeah. And I'm guessing what goes through my mind is that you can just imagine someone down there, you're not looking from an aerial view and thinking, "Well, we just got to fill in this space." And you just start putting them in. And of course, because we landscape our houses, we do it in lines. That's probably, you know, naturally where their mind would go without thinking, "We're trying to look like nature."

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're not trying to cover up a crash site.

• 40:49Speaker 07

  That's exactly it. That's exactly it.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Reed had actually cleaned up other crash sites involving secret prototype aircraft. And no matter how thorough the recovery, something was always left behind. A fragment of metal, a piece of plexiglass, some trace of what happened. But at Heart Canyon, there was nothing. It was like the site had already been scrubbed, abnormally clean. But in 1999, the Ramses did actually find something. What looks like a little polished marble, totally out of place. When they showed me it, I encouraged them to send it out to the lab for testing. They agreed, and we'll show you those test results at the end of this episode. Eighteen or so people stood up there that morning.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Every one of them went home and said nothing. So why, after so many corroborating eyewitnesses, does Aztec carry this stigma? Why was this thing branded a hoax? Now begins part two of our story: The makings of a hoax. The case against Aztec and the reason Wikipedia lists it as a hoax all starts with one man: Frank Scully.

• 42:07Speaker 07

  Some people say, "Oh, he's just a writer for Variety." They're missing the whole point. That's almost like a discredit for the depth and the knowledge that he had.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Scully was one of the most interesting men in American journalism. Columbia-trained, one leg, one lung. He'd ghost-written for the great George Bernard Shaw. Behind the Flying Saucers was published in 1950, and as you know, it was the first public account of the Aztec event.

• 42:36Speaker 08

  He was approached by Silas Newton and Leo Gabauer that said, "We want you to meet with a scientist that has an interesting story to tell you. And we feel the story is going to break, but these scientists wanted to break through you." There were eight scientists, one died, and they had to replace him. So when you're talking how many scientists were involved in coming forward, it was a total of nine. They met in the Mojave Desert with one of them. And he starts to tell Frank this amazing story about a flying saucer recovery. I think they embellished a little bit of the intensity and the urgency of getting the story out, and the reason being, I think they were afraid the story was going to get

• 43:20Speaker 08

  buried so deep that nobody would know about it. And the technology on that craft apparently was something that boggled their mind.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Behind the Flying Saucer was one of the first books ever to claim that the US government had recovered a crashed alien spacecraft. This is well before we knew anything about Roswell, when that came out years later in 1979. And he cast the whole story as a cover-up, with the military hiding the discovery to prevent panic and keep the technology secret. These are now motivations we can now confidently attribute to the US government at the time when it comes to UFOs, if you just look at documents like the Robertson memo. At first, the book was a hit, but after that, the smear campaign ensued, and it went up in flames. And for the next 70-plus years, Scully had been reduced to a gullible Hollywood gossip

• 44:15Speaker 01

  columnist, tricked into a story by two con men. But Frank Scully wasn't just a tabloid guy who printed nonsense. The man was a vault. He was the kind of guy people trusted with their deepest secrets.

• 44:29Speaker 07

  He never released the scientists' names, he never released anything that he could have. He was just sworn to secrecy upon himself and went to his deathbed with it. I think he was a very honorable man.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Years after publishing Behind the Flying Saucers, he was knighted by Pope Pius XII and inducted into the Pontifical Order of St. Gregory the Great. Not exactly the resume of a guy who was universally regarded as a joke. The man who torched his reputation, along with Gabauer's and Newton's, and helped bury Aztec for over 70 years, was another writer. One who wanted the story for himself, didn't get it, and held one hell of a grudge. And worse, he had the money, time, and connections to do something about it. J. P. Kahn was a journalist at the San Francisco Chronicle and an ambitious writer who believed that the Aztec crash story could be one of the biggest in the country.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  When the only outlet of the story was Frank Scully's Variety, Kahn decided he was the man to turn that story into a book. He approached Scully and offered him $10,000 for the rights to the story, but Scully refused.

• 45:40Speaker 07

  Scully proceeds and writes it, and J. P. Kahn was so embarrassed at telling everyone that he was going to be able to do it, that he decides that, "I have some time on my hands, and I will go ahead and discredit Scott."

• 45:58Speaker 08

  Really, Kahn was J. P. Kahn. Really, he was the con artist.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Well, he was also somehow connected with J. Edgar Hoover, who...

• 46:07Speaker 08

  Very well.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  We know, I mean, now it's the consensus in America that J. Edgar Hoover was systematically blackmailing people who sought truth and wanted good things to happen in our country. J. P. Kahn then went after Scully's sources and painted them as con men and fraudsters, starting with Silas Newton. Silas M. Newton was an oil man, and not a small one. He then became a working geophysicist who found oil for a living. He was obsessed with magnetism, not just in the context of finding oil. He thought that its principles would revolutionize flight and energy.

• 46:47Speaker 08

  Very, very successful, very wealthy. In 1950, according to the FBI, is worth $20 million.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  He was well off, well-connected, and well within earshot of the whole Aztec story, given his oil prospecting ventures in the area. But Kahn had his connections as well. On April 25, 1951, he had the California Attorney General's Office contact the FBI to look into Newton, questioning his claims of conducting secret government research and accusing him of being in on a hoax. But Kahn was probably just feeding the FBI information about Silas Newton the whole time. Remember, J. Edgar Hoover ran the FBI, and he and Kahn were friends. So we decided to go through the FBI's extensive files on Silas Newton.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  "We are writing to you because stated, blank, a name stated that a complete investigation of Newton has been made by your bureau." I wonder if that's J. P. Kahn. "Presumably, this investigation has confirmed his cryptic allusions to his being engaged in governmental research of a secret nature. Other circumstances coming to our attention in light of his criminal record indicate to us that Newton is engaged in the perpetration of a hoax or swindle of large proportions."

• 48:05Speaker 01

  So before Kahn had even come into the picture, the FBI had already dug into Newton's background. A document from July 1, 1941 mentions, "He appears to be a good American citizen, has no accent in his speech, and has never made an un-American, or disloyal, or unsympathetic remarks." As the Ramses point out in their book, "It Came to Earth at Aztec," it almost seems like Newton was being vetted for something. Maybe he was being screened for some kind of sensitive wartime project, which makes me wonder, at one point, maybe he worked with secret government technology.

• 48:40Speaker 04

  Because of his geophysical services, you know, record, and understanding of geomagnetism, there's probably some overlap between that and UFO research.

• 48:50Speaker 08

  Oh, I'm sure.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  And what about Leo Gabauer, Silas Newton's colleague?

• 48:55Speaker 08

  They make out Leo Gabauer as a radio-used radio parts sales guy.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  What sort of expertise did he have, radio?

• 49:04Speaker 08

  A pretty broad of interest. Electromagnetism was one of them.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  And like Newton, Gabauer already had one hell of an FBI file, absolutely massive, and stretching back to years before Aztec.

• 49:18Speaker 08

  In 1943, the War Department is asking the FBI to clear him. So I think he worked on some kind of top-shelf project.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  In fact, as early as 1942, with at least one memo about him reaching J. Edgar Hoover himself. His daughter even told the Ramses that agents used to follow her and her sister to school. That is a ridiculous amount of attention and manpower to spend on a guy that's just a hoaxer. And Gabauer's FBI file is still heavily redacted to this day. Why would you ever redact and censor FBI files on someone who is just a petty con man? It makes literally no sense. There is clearly something more to the story, and some reason that the government and

• 50:06Speaker 01

  J. Edgar Hoover's FBI wanted to paint Newton and Gabauer as frauds. The fraud case finally landed in 1953. The alleged victim was a Denver businessman named Herman Flader, who'd invested in Newton's oil ventures. And in a gadget called the Doodlebug, a device that Newton claimed could detect oil and gas underground.

• 50:30Speaker 08

  Herman Flader from Denver had invested in the Doodlebug technology. They were arrested for taking stolen property across state line, a check from an investor.

• 50:42Speaker 04

  Sounds like they were targeted.

• 50:44Speaker 08

  Well, they went through seven judges, and seven judges said, "Are you kidding me? No, I'm not going to hear this case." So then they asked the FBI, "Are you bringing the Doodlebug that you confiscated to court? We want to operate it and show the court how it operates." So they said yes, and they showed up with this horrible wooden box with Scully actually holding the real one. And the defense attorney said, "We've never even seen that before. It was made from old military radio parts." The judge was like, "No, no, no evidence will be allowed to help you. It's going to help the FBI. We're going to prosecute Silas Newton and Gabauer." So it was a kangaroo court at best.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  But it doesn't seem like Flader came forward on his own. He might have been talked into it.

• 51:36Speaker 08

  Because it was Khan that contacted Flader.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Khan seems like the guy who's pushing J. Edgar Hoover.

• 51:41Speaker 08

  Yep.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  At basically to, you know, take them through this kangaroo court and talk about the checks crossing state lines, which is ridiculous. And then also, he's pushing Flader to prosecute them on the duty block. So JP Khan feels like the most important node of basically persecution when it comes to Aztec. Did we, have we uncovered any sort of intelligence ties when it comes to JP Khan?

• 52:05Speaker 08

  Well, he was in the Air Force.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Okay, that's important.

• 52:08Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  So what if Gabe Bauer and Newton were right all along? What if they were actually set up? And what if the fraud case that took them down and buried Aztec along with them was actually part of a sophisticated disinformation campaign? But the point is, the reverberations of the smear campaign spread to anyone who touched the case. Researchers, writers, scientists, a millionaire tycoon. It was universally radioactive.

• 52:41Speaker 00

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• 53:11Speaker 01

  The Aztec event was so radioactive, no one wanted to touch it, let alone investigate it. When I publicly said I was starting to explore the case, these were DMs I got from a supposedly experienced UFO researcher.

• 53:27Speaker 07

  Recovery at Hart Canyon. On or about this site, on March 25th, 1948, a spacecraft of origins unknown crashed or landed on this mesa.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Most historic sites get markers. But after several decades of Aztec being reduced to nothing more than folklore, it was clear no one was ever going to put one here. So in 2007, Suzanne and Scott fixed the record themselves by bolting a plaque to the mesa, signed and dated.

• 53:57Speaker 08

  I think the way the government went about Aztec, of really making sure people were discredited, really making sure anybody that went near it, they even went after Scully. It didn't work. They went after him. But I think it was possibly because this craft, by all reports, was intact.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  If the government really recovered an intact craft, the most valuable thing inside it probably wasn't the bodies. It was the technology that made it fly. So naturally, you'd call in the best scientists you have.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  George Koehler sold radio advertising for the Denver station, KMYR. And at the time, he was living in Silas Newton's house. When students at the University of Denver wanted to look for someone to lecture about flying saucers, one of the science professors, Francis Bromine, turned to Kohler to find them an expert. According to the Ramses, Kohler initially lined up Dr. John Torrance Tate, who they ID as one of the scientists behind the mysterious Dr. G. But with the Air Force trying to hunt down the identities of the scientists connected to Aztec, Tate thought stepping onto a public stage was too dangerous. So the lecture fell to Kohler himself.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  But then he backed out, just for Silas Newton to finally pick up the baton. On March 8th, 1950, Newton took the stage as the mysterious Scientist X. His speech opened with a bombshell. Flying saucers were real, and someone had already landed on Earth.

• 55:40Speaker 19

  Within 500 miles of the city of Denver, there settled gently to Earth a round object which had already been identified as being a flying saucer. And if I may venture, venture the observation, unquestionably, they are interested in our atomic research.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Newton didn't reveal the exact locations, but he left Aztec's fingerprints all over the story. A seamless craft, measuring 99.99 feet in diameter, and found with 16 charred crew members.

• 56:17Speaker 19

  This saucer was 99, 99 hundreds feet in diameter. We have decided that there is a reason. All the measurements of this ship, broken down, total nine.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Sound familiar? If you read Frank Scully's book, it literally says the craft operates on the principle of nine. But the similarities don't stop there. In Newton's lecture, when covering how the flying saucers got here, he says they don't travel the way aircrafts move through the sky. Instead, they move along magnetic lines of force. To demonstrate how powerful these forces could be, Newton brought up Captain Thomas Mantel, the pilot who was killed in 1948 while chasing a UFO near Fort Knox. Newton says that the saucer disintegrated Mantel's plane by disrupting the magnetic forces holding it together.

• 57:17Speaker 19

  Didn't say it had been blown out of the air and then crashed, and it said it disintegrated. Now we happen to know that that can be done magnetically.

• 57:32Speaker 19

  That ship and the others that are flying fly on magnetic lines of force. Now, these magnetic lines of force know no barrier. They're eternally present. Everything that exists on this planet maintains its form and shape and its being by reason of magnetic lines of force.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  He refers to the Earth itself as a giant magnet, held in place by magnetic forces. This is literally true, and it's before we discovered the Van Allen Belt. The Earth is literally held together by a magnetosphere. In Newton's belief, instead of burning fuel, the saucers could lock onto those magnetic lines and ride them, almost the way a train rides rails, except the rails are invisible. The lecture lasted about an hour before Kohler escorted Newton out, saying he had a plane to catch. But Newton wasn't the only one moving fast. Two hours after the lecture ended, Air Force investigators had shown up and were questioning students for clues about Scientist X's identity.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  They were so desperate that when they heard that Scientist X had a plane to catch, they even pulled the passenger manifests for commercial flights leaving Denver. It never dawned on them that Scientist X was Newton, and that Newton was living right there in the city, under the same roof as Kohler. And before long, two Office of Special Investigation agents, Hanson and Unger, showed up at his radio station.

• 59:05Speaker 01

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• 1:00:53Speaker 01

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• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Two hours after the lecture ended, Air Force investigators had shown up and were questioning students for clues about Scientist X's identity. They were so desperate that when they heard that Scientist X had a plane to catch, they even pulled the passenger manifests for commercial flights leaving Denver. It never dawned on them that Scientist X was Newton, and that Newton was living right there in the city, under the same roof as Kohler. And before long, two Office of Special Investigation agents, Hanson and Unger, showed up at his radio station.

• 1:02:11Speaker 08

  And want to have the whole breakdown of who told you about this story? Who else was at the university? What do you know about it? Who told you? And what Kohler did is they were going into the recording room, he told the technician, "Record this."

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  The agents weren't just interested in Kohler's thoughts on flying saucers. They wanted his sources. Who were they? What were these strange gadgets he supposedly knew all about? And most importantly, did any of his sources have connections to the government? Kohler refused to give them a single name.

• 1:02:48Speaker 20

  The information, it was told to me as a story. However, the names where I got it from was entrusted to me as a confidant. And I have no, no desire to jeopardize that confidence in any way, nor will I.

• 1:03:04Speaker 07

  Keep in mind, Kohler knows it's being taped. So you can, you can tell.

• 1:03:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, he's kind of baiting it a little bit.

• 1:03:10Speaker 07

  He's trying to bait him a little bit.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  In fact, he turned the questioning back on the agents, pressing them on why the government wouldn't release what it knew about UFOs.

• 1:03:19Speaker 20

  I believe that the government is the only one that should have any answers to this story. And I believe the government is making a huge mistake in not giving the true facts about the goddamn thing as they know it.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Whether Kohler was intentionally baiting the agents or not, the Air Force seems weirdly territorial over a phenomenon that wasn't supposed to exist. And they clearly weren't dismissing scientist X's lecture out of hand, which brings us back to the scientists who were first in line to give that famous Denver lecture before Newton took the stage. One of the Dr. Gs, Dr. John Torrance Tate.

• 1:03:54Speaker 08

  Jonathan Torrance Tate was an amazing guy. I don't know why, over the years, his name kept popping up in Aztec. And I don't mean books, I mean just documents. And then when we were talking to Texas Instruments, they brought him up. Well, have you looked into Jonathan Torrance Tate? Who's he?

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Tate was the kind of top-tier mind whose background in physics, magnetism, and secret military research made him just the kind of man the government would trust with a flying saucer.

• 1:04:25Speaker 08

  Long story short, we flew to Minneapolis and got a meeting at the University of Minnesota in their archives. And they were very kind, very helpful. And they have all, they have archived all his records. And there were boxes that were sealed, around 1950, right at the time of his death. He died right, ever looked at him.

• 1:04:48Speaker 07

  Looked at him, ever. So then it shows in the records that he was in the Southwest about the time of Aztec.

• 1:04:56Speaker 08

  In March of 48.

• 1:04:58Speaker 07

  And he comes back, and this is where he calls this press conference. It wasn't press, it was really like a science, it was always the science came, and, and celebrated it. And he said, "It has changed my life."

• 1:05:13Speaker 08

  And in that, he talked about, "Technology I saw on this trip, we will never have to worry about energy. That's already been figured out. We'll never have to worry about food. Food production will not be threatened. Pollution can be solved. Health problems can be solved." He was going down this wish list that any scientist would love to be able to say. And he says, "We have this technology now."

• 1:05:44Speaker 04

  And he worked closely with Vannevar Bush.

• 1:05:46Speaker 08

  Well, he worked for him.

• 1:05:47Speaker 04

  Worked for him, and Vannevar Bush ran all of, you know, American federally funded science efforts and research at the highest level.

• 1:05:56Speaker 07

  And to that, exactly in that nature, through these records, what we consistently saw was that Dr. Tate was a very modest man. He didn't want any attention given to himself. And what we saw was that if you watched his pattern of life all the way, he had focused on the war effort, whether it was, you know, whatever, war effort. After that day, that was no longer, he was much more philanthropic and just really focused on human beings. And that was a very powerful, powerful experience for us, to see that mark change bam, right after that trip.

• 1:06:41Speaker 04

  That's amazing.

• 1:06:41Speaker 06

  Something important happened on that trip.

• 1:06:43Speaker 07

  Something important happened on that trip.

• 1:06:44Speaker 06

  Completely paradigm shifting, life changing for this man. And he thought it was, it merited at least that he shared that with all the colleagues, that it was that important.

• 1:06:54Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  So the Ramses believed that Tate would be the perfect head scientist behind Scully's mysterious Dr. G. Unfortunately, Tate died on May 27, 1950, months before Scully's book hit bookstores. But right after the book was released, Scully gave a radio interview where he was asked about Dr. G directly.

• 1:07:16Speaker 08

  Scully's being interviewed about Dr. G. He said, "What point do you think we could get Dr. G on the radio? And we'll learn more about it." And Scully says, "Oh, that won't be possible. We, uh, what was the point? He's no longer available." That was right after Tate died.

• 1:07:33Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 1:07:34Speaker 08

  Chicago radio station. After Tate dies, they probably injected another scientist, because we've come up with nine. And what we did was we took everything Frank Scully said in the book about these amazing scientists. And with the help of Texas Instruments, we, their historical guy, we went through, and that's when we found Vannevar Bush's group in World War II. And we went down each division and we went, "Oh my God. That's one of Scully's guys. That's one of Scully's guys."

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  So here's who the Ramses believe made up the nine-man scientific brain trust, the collective identity of Dr. G. Cecil Howard Green, Patrick E. Hagerty, Richard C. Tolman, John Eric Johnson, J. Clarence Karcher, Eugene McDermott, Henry Bates Peacock, Otto Herman Arnold Schmidt, and of course, John Torrance Tate. There's also a 10th possible name, Carl August Highland. If any of you knows any of these people's descendants, please reach out to this email, [email protected]. These were among the best scientists and engineers connected to wartime research in

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  geophysics, magnetics, electronics, radar, and submarine detection. And many of them were connected directly through the Office of Scientific Research and Development, or the OSRD. This was nuclear godfather Vannevar Bush's wartime science network. If you needed research done in secret in the 1940s, these were the guys you called. And six of the nine Dr. G scientists were directly connected to the founding of Texas Instruments. Later known for its calculators, Texas Instruments did some of the most advanced research and development in its day.

• 1:09:30Speaker 06

  You're saying some of that tech might have, like, leaked eventually into Texas Instruments, you think?

• 1:09:35Speaker 08

  I wouldn't ever oppose that idea. Let's just speculate for a second and say, a UFO crashed over here, and it was brought to Wright-Patterson. The United States government looked at it, said, "Wow, there's some really cool technology on this." I would think, in a very short time, get that thing the hell out of the government's hands. The government would want it out of their hands. And because if it's in the government's hands, it's subject to a bunch of legal grabbings. Congressional moves, Senate moves, whatever. If it's in private hands, I mean, hell, you know, somebody like GE or Lockheed, they could, their corporate attorneys could keep that lawsuit going till we all retire and die.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  So let's say you find something that doesn't fit the periodic table, or the laws of physics, or basic human sanity. The basic playbook is, if it's weird, hide it. Once it's handed over to a private company, it can essentially disappear. This idea of anomalous tech retrieval and transfer to private corporations was spearheaded by Philip J. Corso.

• 1:10:42Speaker 09

  The number one was the integrated circuit. Number two in importance was laser, because I had some laser instruments also. Then fiber optics came out of this. The imaging devices, or night viewing devices, came from this. Some of the work we did electromagnetism and the ICBMs, and it came from this.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  If any of this is true, and Dr. G's scientists actually did work directly for Vannevar Bush, it gives Vannevar Bush's essay, "The Endless Frontier," a whole new meaning. Essentially, instead of all technology working forwards, a lot of it is working backwards, backwards from an end state of interstellar electromagnetic-based travel. And these extremely advanced technologies can beget derivative technologies that just look kind of alien, but they're just kind of functional in prosaic use cases. A candidate for this would be fiber optics. But before any exotic technology is handed over to a private corporation, someone still has to secure the UFO crash site, calm the witnesses, and scoop up whatever wormhole

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  its way here or fell from the sky. We now know, due to going through documents firsthand with the Ramses ourselves, that the Air Force had all sorts of names for UFOs at the time, and they hid their crash retrieval programs in very cheeky ways.

• 1:12:07Speaker 08

  The 4602, in their monthly report, had a UFO B section in it where they talked about how many UFOs were seen or whatever, reported, but that was all internally.

• 1:12:25Speaker 08

  And as you and I were kind of chuckling about, you know, most ones, they could identify 90%. Yeah. We don't want to know about those. Give us the other 10%, you know?

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Here, we have the squadron history of the 4602 Division of the Air Intelligence Service Squadron. Anything of note in this document?

• 1:12:43Speaker 06

  I mean, they mentioned how their whole role is to sort of suppress this in the public. It says here, reassuring the public mind that no tangible evidence existed to support the fears of an invasion from outer space, or that radical technological advances and developments by the enemy do not exist was imperative.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  So the real job of 4602D wasn't exactly UFO hunting. Their mission was to manage public perception, keep the headlines boring, and convince everyone that what they definitely saw, they definitely didn't. Because nothing calms the public like, there's nothing to see here. Some people might say you guys have a mischaracterization of this organization or this, this unit. But a testament to how accurately you guys have documented or gathered documents and understand the 4602D and the 1006 is that at one of your symposiums, you ran into a group of well-cut guys.

• 1:13:37Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  You didn't know where they came from. And it turns out that they were actually part of the modern 4602D, and they were sent to you by their command.

• 1:13:45Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  To go learn about the 4602D.

• 1:13:47Speaker 08

  Yeah, that was in Denver.

• 1:13:48Speaker 07

  Yeah, they came only for that speech.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:13:53Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:13:53Speaker 07

  We similarly had something like that happen in Baltimore, too.

• 1:13:57Speaker 08

  With NSA.

• 1:13:58Speaker 07

  And they said, we were sent by our COs to attend your lecture based on how you do research.

• 1:14:06Speaker 08

  They wanted to know what we knew about cryptology and how deep our research went.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:14:13Speaker 08

  I felt honored.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So whatever the 4602D morphed into, they never really stopped paying attention. And as Scott mentioned, this group wasn't around when Aztec happened in 1948. But according to another one of Scott Ramsey's sources, the craft at Aztec was first taken to Los Alamos. But then it was taken to Wright Airfield, the epicenter of UFO lore. What became Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. You guys have uncovered separate evidence that the Aztec crash specifically made its way to Wright Airfield.

• 1:14:49Speaker 08

  Yes, we interviewed a gentleman who worked for a instrumentation company, for lack of a better word. And that was owned by Eastman Kodak. They sent him, it said it'd be about a four-year deal, down to Dayton, Ohio. He wasn't given a lot of detail.

• 1:15:07Speaker 07

  We've qualified him and his family, so we know where they lived, we know where they worked. We know about them personally. That's what sometimes takes our time to just qualify those people. So it isn't just someone randomly saying something.

• 1:15:20Speaker 08

  Right. He had read our second book and called Suzanne as I was en route to Savannah, Georgia on business. Suzanne called me and said, I hope it's okay. I told him to call you. It was a pretty amazing story. And he called me, and the only thing I had to take notes on was a Burger King bag, I think it is. He said, I'm pretty sure this is the Aztec craft I worked on. I read your book, I heard you on a couple of TV things. His deal at Wright-Patt was they were testing, trying to power up the craft. Wouldn't go into a lot of detail on that, but he told me the instruments they were working with,

• 1:16:00Speaker 08

  and that he was proud to have designed and created the second model and even wrote the operator's manual, which was true. He gave me some names that were pretty impressive that worked on the craft. One was an Exonopse Lipish, which was known for his work on wingless aircraft.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Did he say anything about the craft?

• 1:16:26Speaker 08

  Oh yeah, a lot about it. It was about the right dimensions, 100 feet, give or take. A lenticular cross-section, which Aztec was, as you know. A dome top, a small dome bottom. He said, I can't remember exactly, but you know, 18 feet thick at the widest would probably be accurate. Some of the tests, when they were trying to power it up, it would become translucent. And he said, you could barely see the shapes of the people in the craft.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Could they fly it at all?

• 1:16:56Speaker 08

  No, no.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  And would they use high voltage by any chance?

• 1:17:00Speaker 08

  Yes, the whole thing was very high voltage.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  Interesting. The craft going translucent was again, something later noted by Bob Lazar. And you saw translucent, like almost Korean-looking symbols? Is that right?

• 1:17:15Speaker 10

  Yeah, I saw the wall become translucent. And at some point saw some kind of what I would call symbols.

• 1:17:25Speaker 08

  As they would get there and be going down in it, there was a rather young nurse, which they, they got to know her pretty good and got more story about it. That's how they found out it came from Aztec. She claimed it came from Aztec. And the only allowed in the craft, I forget what it was, 15 or 20 minutes, no more. And he said that she told him at the, where they recovered the craft, scientists going into it, if they were in there any longer, would come out sick.

• 1:17:57Speaker 00

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• 1:18:29Speaker 07

  So there is a theory that since the craft was wobbling as it headed this direction and before it hit the Archuleta Ranch, and after that, that the vehicle might have gone into an autopilot.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  But whether this crash was intentional or not, the craft's final approach gave us another clue to what might have happened onboard. There are new developments in radar at the time.

• 1:18:58Speaker 10

  Very much.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  That might have disrupted the flight path of a UFO.

• 1:19:03Speaker 08

  Well, we dug into that. 1999, we came out looking for radar bases. Looked every high peak in this area, all the way over towards Santa Fe. We found the one at Alva, and we hiked up there in about two feet of snow, and there it was. Just like they left it in 1957. We didn't know that at the time, but when I went down to Maxwell, I showed them the pictures, and they said, boy, it looks like a radar base, but we didn't really have one in that area at the time. Well, of course, the Air Force couldn't find it because it was under the Atomic Energy Commission. Because they built it to protect Los Alamos.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  Even the most advanced technology might be vulnerable to something ordinary it wasn't designed to encounter. For example, let's say you travel back to 1848 with your 21st century starter pack. Your iPhone, your laptop, maybe a smartwatch. At this point, you're functionally a wizard, carrying 178 years of magic beyond anything else on Earth. And then a wagon rolls over your laptop. Someone fires a musket ball right at your phone. Both get destroyed immediately, not because their technology was more advanced, but because a MacBook wasn't designed to survive that kind of encounter. So you go back even further, and a caveman chucks your meta glasses in a puddle.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  And that's it. The sum total of Silicon Valley technology, gone. Thanks to a guy who hasn't even invented the wheel yet. Now flip this to 1948 in New Mexico. New high-powered radar systems are sweeping the skies around some of the most sensitive military and nuclear sites on Earth, pulsing and broadcasting microwave energy we didn't fully understand yet. So what if something centuries ahead of us flies directly through that? Could an unfamiliar form of energy interfere with a craft that wasn't expecting to fly through it? Even if that craft was far more advanced than anything we could build at the time? Radar technology wasn't originally designed to hurt anything, the same way a wagon wasn't designed to hurt a laptop.

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  But sometimes worlds collide. And remember, advanced doesn't mean invincible. And was this a special type of radar?

• 1:21:16Speaker 08

  It was. They were testing it for the Navy. It was called Lashaw. Lashup later became adopted by the Air Force as well. But these particular ones had a basically over the horizon view. So they'd be perfect for battleships, aircraft carriers, whatever. They could look much further than a conventional radar.

• 1:21:37Speaker 04

  So they were higher powered than?

• 1:21:38Speaker 08

  Very high powered.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  When Scott dug into it, he found out the site was originally built in 1946, before being moved in 1950. He also found two other bases close by, Moriarty and Continental. Although those weren't active until around 1950 or 51. By then, all three had become part of a system called Lashup. Lashup was a state of the art, early morning air defense network, created from several types of World War II radar technology.

• 1:22:08Speaker 21

  Our best electronics engineers with unlimited resources and only one objective, to develop radar superior to yours.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  The radar used rotating antennas to sweep the sky with pulses of invisible microwave energy. It would then measure the direction and distance of an aircraft by listening out for the tiny fraction of each pulse reflected back. Lashup wasn't fully set up when Aztec happened. So if Scott's theory is right, that an earlier radar base was already operating in March of 1948, could it have played a role in Aztec?

• 1:22:43Speaker 04

  Do we know what Lashup sort of updated on technically, vis a vis like prior radar systems?

• 1:22:51Speaker 08

  Well, the English, the British and the Americans at the end of World War II were both working together, but yet competing. And they were all, they were basically microwave.

• 1:23:05Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:05Speaker 08

  The early ones.

• 1:23:07Speaker 06

  That's a lot of the talk that we hear also about what's been happening. You know, if you look at Jake Barber, the Scionics and all of that. And, you know, the Northrop Grumman connection, they have in their possession, a lot of those microwave cannons. A lot of those would seem to be these large vehicles with these sort of directional cannons on the back that, you know, purportedly of, once these crafts are in a vicinity, are able to sort of take them down.

• 1:23:36Speaker 22

  HPMs, which are high powered microwave weapons, are deployed. And they have an effect where they can disrupt the flight pattern of the object. And when it is an object, sometimes it's not. And it can result in that aircraft being forcibly brought down.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Could something similar have happened with radar at Aztec? Even if it was unintentional? It's not like the radar's microwave pulses could physically shove a craft off course. But if the craft depended on sensitive electromagnetic controls or navigation sensors, it's very possible that a burst of microwave energy could have interfered and overwhelmed the craft's systems. It's probably no coincidence then that the most popular document on the FBI's website is the notorious Hoddle memo. Written in 1950, the same year as Scully's book, the document discusses recovered flying saucers in New Mexico that were specifically brought down

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  due to new high powered radar installations in the area messing with the craft's flight mechanisms.

• 1:24:42Speaker 06

  If they were doing that 80 years ago, I mean, that tech's probably come a long way today. You know, if they were even accidentally doing it before, they've probably perfected it now.

• 1:24:51Speaker 04

  Probably, yeah.

• 1:24:53Speaker 17

  The guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy and some of the same ways to protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets. If you read the definition of special nuclear material in the Public Atomic Energy Act of 1954, it basically states any material that releases any kind of atomic energy.

• 1:25:17Speaker 04

  That would be retrieved crash material. So it's kind of a sneaky way.

• 1:25:21Speaker 17

  No, it is. If you actually read the Atomic Energy Act, if something is not a nuke, but it has radiological energy coming off it, you know, alpha, beta decay, whatever.

• 1:25:31Speaker 04

  Same secrecy.

• 1:25:31Speaker 17

  Same secrecy.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  David Grush is noting one of the most clear and longstanding trends in UFO world. That UFO secrecy is bound up in atomic research. Just like Silas Newton said in his speech, whoever these beings are, they seem extremely interested in our atomic programs.

• 1:25:51Speaker 19

  Unquestionably, they are interested in our atomic research.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  So American nuclear godfather, Vannevar Bush, being involved in Aztec would make complete sense. Even his direct report, Robert Sarbacher, who worked closely with him, is on record in letters to Bill Steinman saying that Vannevar Bush was directly involved in UFO research. Sarbacher is also on record with Canadian scientist Wilbert Smith saying that he believes Frank Scully's book about the Aztec crash is substantially correct.

• 1:26:25Speaker 17

  I would probably ask Sarbacher, Oppenheimer, and be like, what was your thought process in the 40s and 50s? You know, scrolling this away.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  So if a craft really did plow into the Mesa, who got the call? One clue came from a researcher who put Aztec back on the map in 1986. His book, UFO Crash at Aztec, kicked the whole thing back to life. It was the best map of the UFO legacy program to date, and he never gets enough credit, the great Bill Steinman.

• 1:27:01Speaker 04

  Bill Steinman is like the most underappreciated UFO researcher, maybe of all time. He wrote a 600 page book that's extremely detailed, where he outs, you know, this committee, which I think maybe in its counterintelligence moniker is named the Majestic Twelve, but there was probably some reality to this. And, but he even talks to, you know, he tries to FOIA the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit with this organization that definitely existed, because this was verified by the recipients of this FOIA request in the federal government from 1947 to 1950. The fact that we had an organization called an Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit, we know due to Bill Steinman and his work.

• 1:27:45Speaker 04

  And then at the end of his life, Robert Sarbacher, who's clearly part of the UFO story, was running the Washington National Labs, was an atomic energy expert.

• 1:27:54Speaker 08

  Very, very high up.

• 1:27:55Speaker 04

  Very high up. Sarbacher writes to him saying that the rumors around UFOs are true. And that, you know, we did have a program, Vannevar Bush, Oppenheimer, we're all involved. And so all of this is outed in this book. And so, yeah, I hope he's resting in paradise and listening to this and, you know, maybe feel somewhat vindicated.

• 1:28:15Speaker 08

  Well, he had a job with Lockheed, probably keep it at that. And quality engineer, quality assurance. And he was warned that you don't, that they didn't really like employees writing books on flying saucers. Couple, couple of days after the book came out, he got canned.

• 1:28:34Speaker 04

  He got fired. He got fired.

• 1:28:36Speaker 08

  And never, ever was able to get a job in aerospace or aviation again.

• 1:28:41Speaker 04

  Top brass from Lockheed, Martin, they're the ones who sat him down.

• 1:28:45Speaker 08

  Lockheed back then, Martin hadn't come into the picture.

• 1:28:47Speaker 04

  Lockheed, and they were asking what he was doing out there already, as if they'd have been tracking where he was going.

• 1:28:54Speaker 08

  Yeah, they asked him, where are you taking trips to on weekends? Well, he's coming out here. I think it was, well, what are you doing in Aztec? Well, I'm researching something that happened in 1948. And it came out about the UFO crash. And he said, we really don't like it. We make a lot of money on government contracts. We don't need you in there stirring it up. Bill claimed that a couple of times at the crash site, as he was leaving, he was followed by helicopters, military helicopters. And that actually happened to us once when we were putting the plaque in.

• 1:29:25Speaker 04

  Really?

• 1:29:25Speaker 08

  Yeah. I think it was a more of a, what are these guys up to thing? Not really a threat. He died in January, a couple of years ago, massive heart attack. Sheila was in the kitchen. She was getting ready to prepare food. And Bill was up in the upstairs bathroom and she heard a thud. And Suzanne and I had been to their house. They were near Goodyear, Arizona. And it was a retirement development. And as soon as you pull in, there's the firehouse and the paramedics. And you go up and there's Bill's house. So I mean, you know.

• 1:30:04Speaker 07

  He was right there.

• 1:30:05Speaker 08

  The paramedics said they pronounced him dead at the scene.

• 1:30:07Speaker 04

  Do you think there was any sort of foul play involved or?

• 1:30:11Speaker 08

  That's so hard to say.

• 1:30:13Speaker 07

  It is.

• 1:30:13Speaker 08

  You know, I started this, I was young. You know, everybody's aging out.

• 1:30:19Speaker 07

  It's hard to say. He was, you know, a mature age mayor. You know, but there would be nothing, from my standpoint, that would lead me to believe that that was, but it's, once again, a coincidence that seems untimely. You know, that's all we can.

• 1:30:35Speaker 08

  They were in the process of moving. And I don't want to say where for some obvious reasons. And Bill, Bill had been giving us documents that never made it in his book. And Bill and I were really social. I mean, he was a good friend. He went from a kind of a grumpy old guy when I met him. What do you have so far? I got this, this, this. Call me back when you got more.

• 1:31:02Speaker 07

  He was a good guy, very, very talented and.

• 1:31:05Speaker 08

  Very talented, very smart. And then years later, I called him. We were doing the first book and and I mentioned that in our new book coming out. I said, what do you have so far? I said, well, no smoking gun. He said, you're never going to find the damn gun. What do you got in the way of bullets? Hmm. I said, well, here's some new things we found. He goes, keep digging, keep digging.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  Investigating Aztec costs Steiman decades of ridicule and his own aerospace career. It may have even cost him his life. And almost 20 years later, another researcher picked up the mystery and followed it straight back to Scully's widow, Alice Scully.

• 1:31:46Speaker 04

  One of the more recent books to come out about the Aztec crash was Chris Evans. And he was this UFO researcher who wrote a book called Alien Conspiracy.

• 1:31:56Speaker 08

  Right.

• 1:31:57Speaker 04

  And he had met with Alice Scully, right? Frank Scully's.

• 1:32:01Speaker 08

  Numerous times, yeah.

• 1:32:02Speaker 04

  Numerous times Frank, Frank Scully's wife.

• 1:32:04Speaker 08

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:05Speaker 04

  And she had said some remarkable things, right about.

• 1:32:09Speaker 08

  She told him that there were definitely photos of the Aztec crash still in existence.

• 1:32:16Speaker 08

  Didn't tell him who, what, when, and where.

• 1:32:18Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:32:19Speaker 08

  There were two sets of photos, if you go back to the original Frank Scully story. One, the government took and they didn't last long. They were almost like a Polaroid film. It mattered weeks. They were back to being blank. And then two circumstances while here Alice talking about there are still photos. Chris said, when will they surface? She said, not in my lifetime. So I don't know if she had them or knew who had them.

• 1:32:45Speaker 04

  Chris Evans meets with Alice Scully and it becomes aware that there's real documentation around the Aztec crash. Wants to urgently meet with you guys. And then what happens next?

• 1:32:56Speaker 08

  His only concern was the fact he says, well, I, I spoke. And I said, okay, we're, you're going to be in the, the guest bedroom upstairs. Just kind of open a window or smoke outside. And then it was nice time of year. And he said, well, I just don't want to be smoking around non smokers. I had to confess that I was also at back then a smoker. And I think that made him feel better. But he died

• 1:33:26Speaker 08

  the day that he was coming to see Susanna.

• 1:33:30Speaker 04

  And what, how did he die?

• 1:33:32Speaker 08

  According to the West Virginia Highway Patrol report, he jumped off a bridge.

• 1:33:39Speaker 04

  Did he seem at all depressed or suicidal?

• 1:33:42Speaker 08

  Not with Susanna.

• 1:33:43Speaker 07

  He was joking with me and we were laughing what we were going to do and you know, talking, you know, I love to cook. So what can I cook? And, and, and all those things. It was just a

• 1:33:56Speaker 07

  playful, fun conversation. I was and when we got the news, it was like somebody punched us.

• 1:34:03Speaker 04

  Did his family suspect any foul play or?

• 1:34:06Speaker 08

  No.

• 1:34:07Speaker 05

  There was one witness, right? That

• 1:34:09Speaker 08

  a truck driver.

• 1:34:10Speaker 05

  Ended up being kind of shaky.

• 1:34:13Speaker 08

  Well, the information, the, the, the West Virginia Highway Patrol did a lousy job at taking the information where the information they were getting was bogus to begin with. We were unable, never able to find the driver.

• 1:34:28Speaker 04

  The witness?

• 1:34:29Speaker 08

  The witness, the truck driver that said he witnessed Chris pulling up, stopping, jumping out of the car and jumping over the guardrail or handrail of the bridge. Ironically, his nephew, Chris, was the first police officer at the scene. They dispatched, said, we have a jumper and underneath the bridge, there is the Conawa River. And then there's a farmer that planted at that time, corn right up to the river.

• 1:34:59Speaker 08

  And apparently Chris wasn't trying to jump in the river because he ended up the cornfield. Or he wasn't.

• 1:35:08Speaker 08

  He didn't jump. Maybe he was thrown.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  Intrigued by Chris Evans' life and work, I wanted to learn more about him. So I decided to buy his book, Alien Conspiracy. I bought it off of a random used book website online. When it got delivered, I opened it up and I started reading. And low and behold, on the first page, it was signed by Chris Evans, dated December 1st, 2004. This was just a year before he tragically passed away.

• 1:35:43Speaker 08

  I want to show you guys a couple of things. And maybe we ought to move it up because we could get two to four inches here.

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  The high strangeness in Aztec goes well beyond the 1948 crash. As soon as we got to the crash site, we had a visitor, a friend who seemed to know all about us. And this was when Chris Ramsey and I had a much smaller following, a friend with Air Force connections and a man who happened to be camping out by the Aztec crash site, one of the most obscure and undesired camping grounds in America. He was just passing through.

• 1:36:15Speaker 05

  And I just turned around and there's a light like way out in the distance and it's moving below the ridge line, below the top of the mesa, and it's just moving slowly across the horizon. And I'm like, man, that thing's really smooth. It's either a chopper or a really slow plane. And then my buddy comes walking out. And, and he's like, what are you doing? I said, I'm getting some wood for the fire. And, and he looks over, he's like, what's that? I think it's a plane. He goes, that's not a plane. I said, look, there's five more people here and I don't want to jade anybody's vision of what they see. So don't say anything. In fact, let's not say anything until it does something strange. And then just point it out. Don't say anything.

• 1:37:00Speaker 05

  Right after we said it was a 90 degree turn. And we're, you know, and we're walking back, back down to the rest of the group and it was instantly over us.

• 1:37:11Speaker 08

  Whoa.

• 1:37:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. And we're lit up in this greenish light. Right? Not, I didn't feel afraid. One of the girls freaked, what do they want from us? She starts screaming. Her boyfriend's like, it's a helicopter. And we're talking like this. As we're all standing there, I said, okay, well, let's just all get back to the fire. And then that's it. Then I woke up in the morning. So I don't know if I missed time or.

• 1:37:35Speaker 04

  That sounds like missing time.

• 1:37:36Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, I don't remember laying down and going to sleep or anything else. I just woke up in the morning. And then I walked up to the ridge where the truck was parked and the girl with her boyfriend, who said it's a helicopter, were sitting there. And, and this is no joke. They're sitting there on a rock and I'm talking to them and, and I said, what do you guys think about last night? What do you think about what happened? And they didn't want to talk about it. They're like, nah. And he's like, it's just a helicopter. And about 15 minutes later, three Apache attack helicopters come flying on the deck. Dude, I'm looking directly out from the ridge line at their faces in their choppers. You can see all the rivets. You can see their faces, not, you know, because they're covered. You can't see everything, but you see everything.

• 1:38:20Speaker 05

  And they went roaring by in the same flight path.

• 1:38:23Speaker 08

  Wow.

• 1:38:23Speaker 05

  And, and I said, that's what we would have heard. We wouldn't have been able to talk.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  I also spoke to an Aztec local who has seen strange lights darting above the San Juan Coal Mine, right by where he worked. And he saw something unbelievable at the crash site itself.

• 1:38:40Speaker 03

  With the crash site here, it was back in 1999. My grandfather, they're building a house out in Heart Canyon. And building the house and it's up on top of the hill. They're in Heart Canyon and down on below the road that goes to Heart Canyon, we see a convoy of black SUVs, like, kind of like the movies, black SUVs, no markings, kind of weird. They're driving out there. Then there's two helicopters flying by, like cargo type helicopters. Well, later in the day, they come back, the vehicle, you know, driving fast, helicopters come back, but they have a container. And at that time, my grandpa, he's all, he's this wild guy. He's like, oh man, something's not right. We gotta go check it out. So we drive out, try to find something, try to find tracks where possibly they've gone. Well, we came across,

• 1:39:23Speaker 03

  I'd say about a mile or two from where, right now, the crash site where they say it is. From that spot, we found a, came across a hole. And it was about 30 feet, 30 feet in diameter, kind of like a circular hole.

• 1:39:36Speaker 08

  Oh my God.

• 1:39:37Speaker 03

  Nothing was there, but I mean, seeing the helicopter go out there empty, come back with a container, seeing that hole.

• 1:39:44Speaker 08

  Whoa.

• 1:39:45Speaker 03

  Next to this crash site, I'm putting two and two together. They found something. And nobody knows what it is. And since then, I never heard anything, never saw anything in papers.

• 1:39:55Speaker 04

  Gone back to see.

• 1:39:56Speaker 03

  I've gone back.

• 1:39:57Speaker 04

  Is the hole still there?

• 1:39:58Speaker 03

  There's nothing there.

• 1:39:59Speaker 04

  Really?

• 1:39:59Speaker 03

  And it's just, it's a trip. It's wild.

• 1:40:01Speaker 04

  So you think they kind of covered up the hole, basically?

• 1:40:05Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:40:05Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  And that local you just heard, Brett Lanier, is now the 60th mayor of Aztec.

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  While on the Archuleta Ranch, we heard about cattle mutilations occurring in the area.

• 1:40:22Speaker 04

  So no blood? And what about the organs and the eyes and the ears?

• 1:40:26Speaker 23

  Uh, later on, I never even thought about checking for tongue. The ears and eyes were still intact, but the udder was just... Looked like a surgeon had taken it off, but no blood. Just real clean, straight cuts.

• 1:40:43Speaker 04

  What was your first instinct? That a human had done it, or that something else had?

• 1:40:46Speaker 23

  That something else had done it.

• 1:40:48Speaker 13

  And I was coming from Cuba to... I mean, I was driving home. There was other people on the road, but there was this... It looked like a cigar. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, there's a plane landing." And it was a big plane. It looked like one of those transport planes from the army. I was like, "Oh, my God, it's gonna crash. It's gonna crash right there." And so I hurried up and I sped around Turtle Mountain and I got up on top. You're thinking, "Okay, well, this plane's gonna... It's gonna crash and there's gonna be a fire. There's gonna be smoke. There's gonna be dust. There's gonna be something." Nothing.

• 1:41:30Speaker 13

  Drove home really quickly and I called my mom. I was like, "Mom, I was like, I saw this plane, like this huge plane, um, crash over by Turtle Mountain, but I didn't see anything. I didn't..." She was like, "I don't know." I said, "Do I call the police? What do I do?" And she was like, "I don't know." The next day, my mom calls and she said, "Krista, what did that plane look like that you saw?" And I said, "Well, I told you." She said, "Well, they tracked a UFO. There was a, I think it was United Airlines pilot who was like..." And then they sent it all over the internet, because it was all over the internet the next day. I can still remember...

• 1:42:14Speaker 13

  I remember exactly where I was at on that road when I saw it. And I know exactly what size it was. And it was just... It was going so slow that I was like, "Well, it's gonna crash. It's gonna go down."

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  It was finally time to test that polished marble found buried at the crash site. First, the Ramses tested the object on their own with X-ray fluorescence performed by a jeweler. And they got a very anomalous result. In fact, they got back an extremely high percentage of iridium, close to 40%, which if right, would basically mean this object had to have come from outer space. So more testing was definitely warranted. I decided to hit up my friend Matthew Zidakis.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Zidakis's lab does cutting-edge materials research, and he is the perfect combination of hard-headed and open-minded.

• 1:43:12Speaker 07

  Bottom line is, we're in it to receive the truth. That's the bottom line.

• 1:43:17Speaker 24

  Right.

• 1:43:17Speaker 07

  So really hoping it's this or hoping it's that or doesn't really do any good and it doesn't really matter anyway.

• 1:43:27Speaker 24

  Okay. I'm getting about... 20.5. It looked like .6, but I thought, I think that was from rolling around. So we'll call that 20.5 grams. Now that we have the number of grams and we have the volume, now we can calculate density. And then when we have the density, we can compare that to the materials that it's supposed to be made out of, including going back to the claim of iridium, which is very, very dense. So I can already tell like this is... It's gonna be nowhere near dense enough for a heavy metal like iridium. But what we can do is at least check.

• 1:44:09Speaker 24

  So what we're doing now is called neutron activation analysis. And it is typically done at nuclear reactors. So we've got tungsten blocks holding it in place. And we just have it gently in between our two Californium sources. And so what's gonna happen is it's only going to be very mild... Made very mildly gently, slightly radioactive. And then we can, by reading off the radiation that comes off of the sample tomorrow, is what we will find is whether the isotopic ratios

• 1:44:52Speaker 24

  match that of planet Earth or not.

• 1:44:55Speaker 25

  Is that covered up?

• 1:44:56Speaker 24

  All right.

• 1:44:57Speaker 25

  And now this would be more with truth. This is our first go.

• 1:45:04Speaker 25

  So our main one is showing up here, which is telling me it's probably calcium. Uh, calcium, the secondary peak on calcium also matches up.

• 1:45:14Speaker 24

  Okay.

• 1:45:15Speaker 25

  So we're seeing calcium in it?

• 1:45:17Speaker 24

  Hmm, no calcium in the original.

• 1:45:18Speaker 25

  Yeah. Iodine doesn't exactly go the way I want it to.

• 1:45:24Speaker 24

  Okay.

• 1:45:24Speaker 25

  But titanium does.

• 1:45:26Speaker 24

  Okay, titanium was on the list.

• 1:45:27Speaker 25

  Titanium, I think, was on the list.

• 1:45:28Speaker 24

  Yeah.

• 1:45:28Speaker 25

  All right, let's see what these other ones are. Let's do... The lighter elements get a little bit tougher.

• 1:45:33Speaker 24

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:33Speaker 25

  You're seeing gold come up. 3.4% for gold. That one got about five. We're in maybe a different spot. Got some zinc, it got iron. Uh, again, the umbravadium, you can't trust those because the gun uses those in order to go. Uh, 17% titanium, which is dead on what they got.

• 1:45:54Speaker 24

  Yeah.

• 1:45:55Speaker 25

  Um, and we've got lead, but we have no iridium.

• 1:45:57Speaker 24

  Can you scroll down though? There's others?

• 1:45:59Speaker 25

  Oh, there is others, but it gets less and less and less for the percentages. No, platinum would be the lowest.

• 1:46:06Speaker 24

  Yeah.

• 1:46:07Speaker 25

  So even this one still, this one's set up for precious metals. Not sure exactly what settings the, you know, the original machine head when we were looking for that.

• 1:46:17Speaker 24

  No, but no iridium, even in the potential hallucinatory mode where it could find it.

• 1:46:23Speaker 25

  Yeah.

• 1:46:24Speaker 24

  Well...

• 1:46:25Speaker 25

  Back to the drawing.

• 1:46:26Speaker 24

  I think that's that, unfortunately. I mean, we can still do isotopes, but it's probably... It's not looking good at the moment.

• 1:46:33Speaker 25

  If it was 37% iridium, you should be able to factor that in and find out what its weight should be.

• 1:46:38Speaker 24

  Exactly.

• 1:46:39Speaker 25

  It should be heavier. Sorry, but that's... Numbers don't lie.

• 1:46:43Speaker 07

  We're here to find out...

• 1:46:46Speaker 25

  Yep.

• 1:46:46Speaker 07

  The exact thing.

• 1:46:47Speaker 25

  Yep.

• 1:46:48Speaker 07

  Over the years, we've had people try and... Well, they would jump to conclusions or they would try and encourage us to sensationalize parts of the Aztec story. And Scott and I had never felt that that's the way to do proper research. Um, in fact, we just assumed downplay something rather than prop it up. And the beauty of the Aztec story is, and having done, you know, all these years of research, is that it is such a fantastic story. It is a comprehensive story. It's so powerful and a really important part of history. And there's really no reason to add anything to it.

• 1:47:31Speaker 07

  It just, I mean, its purity is a powerful story.

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  For more than 70 years, almost everyone looked at the fraud charges. They looked at the word hoax sitting on a Wikipedia page like a name tag. And while everyone watched that, no one bothered to look at the actual mesa or call the witnesses or go out to Heart Canyon and see the crash site for themselves. The whole case just disappeared right out of America's hands.

• 1:48:01Speaker 08

  The only skeptic that has ever been here was Carl Flock. And that's because I drove him out here and walked him around and he lived two hours away.

• 1:48:11Speaker 07

  But I might say this. He was against Aztec for years before he ever... You dragged him here.

• 1:48:19Speaker 08

  Yeah. And we had him come up and talk at the library because back then, when we had the Aztec symposium, we always tried to have the pro and the con. And we became good friends. I don't want to paint him in bad light. I said to him on the way out, Heart Canyon Road, he said, "My God, how far is it to the crash site?" I said, "What do you mean? You don't know where it is?" "No." I said, "Carl, how can you..." It would be like being a detective trying to solve a murder where you're sitting in New York at the police station. The murder was in LA. I mean, how do you do that?

• 1:48:52Speaker 01

  This is where the story truly gets crazy. While making this documentary, we got in contact with a very valuable source. This person said that a high-ranking congressman he was in touch with was actively investigating the Aztec case. He also said that that congressman's office was broken into by none other than Carl Flock. Remember, this is the same Carl Flock that provided all of the public debunking on Aztec.

• 1:49:24Speaker 01

  He's basically the entire reason the Wikipedia page still says this is a hoax. And this is the same Carl Flock, who was a self-confessed former CIA agent. The congressman apparently knew it was Carl because the office's security camera caught footage of him. And what was the one thing Carl Flock took from the office? Scott Ramsey's FedEx package that involved evidence surrounding the Aztec case. Evidence he had just sent to the congressman. Now, I don't have a smoking gun here, and I'm ultimately speculating. But if this is true, and I'm pretty sure it is, it is so, so damning. Naturally, we discussed all of this with the Ramses.

• 1:50:08Speaker 04

  So the guy, like, the kind of main piece of real estate online for the Aztec crash is this YouTube documentary, and it's you going back on kind of the pro, you know. Yeah, with Carl. And then Carl Flock saying that this is all a hoax, but kind of repeating kind of the party line in this sort of very, you know, turned off sort of way. And, and that's the guy everybody looks to as. Oh, he's an expert. The real, the expert about why this is a hoax. And he was caught breaking into a government official's office, and he's a former CIA agent. Yes. Which we know. Yeah, which he never denies.

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  So maybe Aztec was a hoax, just not the one we were told. Maybe the real sleight of hand was convincing everyone that there was nothing here worth looking at. And it worked so well that Aztec is the rare case that gets called a hoax by both sides. If Aztec could be successfully buried under the word hoax, what other stories have we stopped investigating because the same label was attached to them? Because of manufactured stigma? That doesn't mean every weird claim is true. Some stories really are hoaxes, but that's what makes an incredibly effective strategy. It doesn't take much to poison the well. You don't have to disprove every witness or erase every fingerprint if you can make

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  the story embarrassing enough that no serious person wants to be caught looking. Which brings me to Scott and Suzanne. Over half a million dollars of their own money on a case that offered them nothing but ridicule. And they spent it trying to give a handful of people their names back. A geophysicist, a developer, a writer who kept his word until the day he died. People who got flattened by this and never got to answer for themselves. I want to give huge props to my amazing cast and crew. Not only did Chris Ramsey from Area 52 join as a fellow researcher, but he was a massive help with production as a field director and overall troop leader. And this story would never have made it to my channel if it wasn't for JP, whose research

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  and outreach to the Ramses was instrumental in making this happen. Lastly, I want to thank DP Arthur Douglas, and of course, the Ramses and the people of Aztec. This was one of the most fun weeks of my life, and this video wouldn't have been possible without their time, energy, and hard work.

• 1:52:29Speaker 08

  Thank you so much. It was a blast.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  Please go buy the Ramses newest book. It came to earth at Aztec, New Mexico: Revealed: The Recovery of a UFO. I'm linking it in the description. This is their third and final book on the Aztec case in their most comprehensive account. They've incorporated more than 30 years of research in previously unreleased witnesses, documents, and physical evidence. A lot of things that we didn't have time to cover in this documentary. Now you tell me whether one word on a Wikipedia page still belongs there.

• 1:53:46Speaker 00

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  I am a sample. Long before I'm measured, long before I'm named, each piece of me has a message, a nuanced role. When you look beyond the average, when you see where I belong, you see why I behave the way I do. When you start looking at my details, when you include my context, I start telling you the truth. I always had a story. You just needed a way to hear it.

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