I Confront The Secretary of Energy On UFOs

Our American Alchemist this week is John S. Herrington, Ronald Reagan's Secretary of Energy, who ran America's nuclear weapons complex at the height of the Cold War. --------------------- You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! ZocDoc: Head to https://zocdoc.com/jessemichels and check that appointment off your to-do list. Qualia: Curious about creatine? Go to https://qualialife.com/JESSE to get 50% off and save an extra 15% with the code JESSE. Grab Your American Alchemy Merchandise Here! https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ --------------------- John joined Reagan as a volunteer advance man in the 1960s. He later served as Assistant Secretary of the Navy, head of White House personnel, and Secretary of Energy from 1985 to 1989. In this episode, John takes us inside Reagan's cabinet: the stealth fighter he found hidden in his own budget, the Strategic Defense Initiative and Edward Teller's nuclear-powered space laser, Reagan's "throw deep" approval of the Superconducting Super Collider, and the secret Taiwanese nuclear weapons program the U. S. shut down. He also takes on the UFO question. He says the Navy's UAP videos are real, but calls a Reagan-era alien story "total B. S." and challenges David Grusch and others to show hard evidence. Watch Brent Friedman’s podcast here: https://soundlightfrequency.com/ Learn more about the Reagan legacy John helped preserve as a founding board member of the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library, and read Reagan, In His Own Hand, the collection John says proves Reagan wrote his own words - https://www.reaganfoundation.org/ Follow the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reaganfoundation Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RonaldReagan X: https://x.com/ronaldreagan YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/reaganfoundation --------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/american-alchemy-3758eda5-237b-45f1-b043-da80a300714e Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] --------------------- TIMESTAMPS 0:00 - Introduction 1:28 - Brent Friedman's Story 4:26 - Interview Preview 6:28 - Sponsors (Zocdoc) 8:14 - Meeting Ronald Reagan 10:11 - Reagan and SDI Opposition 11:21 - Reagan's Diaries and Speeches 13:02 - Strategic Defense Initiative Explained 15:48 - Edward Teller and Excalibur 17:33 - Green Fireballs Document 18:47 - UFOs, Navy Videos and Faith 21:28 - Herrington Denies Brent's Story 24:49 - The Greenbrier Bunker 27:26 - Brent Friedman Responds 29:43 - The 1981 Veranda Conversation 33:04 - Underground Facilities in West Virginia 35:13 - Polygraph and Money Questions 36:12 - Why Brent Went Public 39:01 - David Grusch 41:36 - The Politico Journalist 44:32 - UFOs at Nuclear Sites 46:09 - Harald Malmgren's UFO Debris 49:06 - A Secret Budget Item 49:23 - Sponsors (Qualia) 50:59 - F-117 and Skunk Works 52:30 - UFOs as Spy Plane Cover 53:15 - Oak Ridge Document 53:53 - Garry Nolan's Ubatuba Sample 56:57 - Reagan's 1974 UFO Sighting 58:26 - Otherworldly or Man-Made 59:23 - Battle of Los Angeles and Secrecy 1:00:34 - AI and Deepfakes 1:01:26 - Stratton, Lacatski and Lazar 1:03:31 - UFOs at Pantex and Fukushima 1:05:07 - Bobby Ray Inman 1:06:06 - UFOs and the Ocean Floor 1:07:26 - CIA's Hollywood Liaison 1:09:00 - Limits on Elected Leaders 1:10:32 - Exotic Propulsion and Submarines 1:11:28 - Nuclear Airplanes and Project Orion 1:12:43 - Nuclear Tests and Roswell 1:13:37 - The Question of Evidence 1:15:37 - Palomar Observatory Transients 1:17:13 - Parapsychology and Precognition 1:18:30 - Trump and Disclosure 1:20:25 - Cold Fusion 1:21:26 - Spies at the Energy Department 1:22:38 - PROMIS Software and Bill Richardson 1:24:09 - Genesis Mission and Underfunded Programs 1:25:57 - Public Fear of Nuclear Power 1:27:10 - SAIC and Bobby Ray Inman 1:29:01 - High-Energy Physics and UFOs 1:31:01 - Marco Rubio on UAP 1:32:54 - Atomic Energy Act and Rickover 1:35:13 - Seafloor Recovery and Puthoff's Hypothesis 1:37:55 - The CIA, Gaffney and Casey 1:40:17 - Closing and Reagan Keepsakes 1:42:45 - Brent on the Hazing Theory 1:44:18 - DOE Roswell Hazing Ritual 1:47:43 - Consciousness and Initiation Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Today, we make American alchemy history.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  I have seen laser technology that could bring down almost anything.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  We get to interview a former Secretary of Energy. That's right. The guy that ran the entire Department of Energy. All of our nuclear programs, the national labs, and if I'm right, probably a lot of stuff around UFOs.

• 0:50Speaker 03

  If you actually read the Atomic Energy Act, if something is not a nuke, but it has radiological energy coming off it, you know, alpha, beta decay, whatever.

• 0:59Speaker 04

  Same secrecy.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  Same secrecy.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  I believe nuclear secrecy was used as a Trojan horse for UFO secrecy.

• 1:07Speaker 05

  The Manhattan Project would have custody of it, and then it would go into the Atomic Energy Commission, and then it would go into the Department of Energy, which has its own line of clearances.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  And that makes sense. UFOs have shown up at nuclear weapons installations and civilian energy grids for the last 80 years. Countless witnesses have reported UFOs hovering around nuclear sites since the 40s, before we had drones or reconnaissance planes. And thousands of military and intelligence reports have documented this connection. From Roswell, New Mexico in 1947, the site of the largest nuclear stockpile to date, to Fukushima, Japan, to Chernobyl and Ukraine. The connection between nuclear and UFOs is global and ubiquitous. But the person we're about to interview isn't just any Secretary of Energy.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  He was one of Ronald Reagan's closest advisers throughout his career. And the reason I really wanted to interview him is that there has been a story circulating about him by a friend of the show and former American alchemist, Brent Friedman. Here's how that story goes.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  I grew up next to a guy that I revered. A guy named John Harrington, his wife Lois, his two daughters, not gonna name them. And, I mean, we literally live right next door. There was like one gate between us. John was a man's man. John taught me how to throw a football, got me into football, just all these things. And he was like a surrogate father to me. Cut to six years later. He calls me up. He goes, "Listen, I got a new job. I'm back east now. I'd like you to drive our cars across the country." That night, when he comes home, all of a sudden, a black Lincoln Town Car pulls up. And he gets out of the backseat, and there's two Secret Service people that come in. And I notice he has a briefcase handcuffed to his wrist. They walk him into the house, and they go back. And I'm kind of watching from a distance. He puts it into a wall safe, a distance.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  And one of the Secret Service people leaves, and the other one stays in the house. I'm thinking, "Who is this guy?" And then afterwards, he's like, "Hey, why don't you and I go out onto the veranda and catch up?" And I'm sitting there, talking with him, we're catching up. And I'm like, "Okay, all of that's great. What is your job?" And he goes, "I can't really talk about it. You know, I'm working for the government. It's classified." And I said, "Okay, well, I don't know. What does that even mean?" And he goes, "Look, I have a higher clearance level than the president. So how did you get that job?" And he said, "Well, I was briefed for months in an underground facility in West Virginia." And I said, "What? What was that like?" And he said, "Well, I used to cry myself to sleep every night."

• 3:50Speaker 03

  So I said, "Well, I don't, what would make you cry yourself to sleep?" And he goes, "Brent, this is not the world I thought I was bringing my daughters into." And so I pressed him on, and he kept saying, "I can't talk about that. I can't talk about it. This is like classified information." And finally, after he'd had a couple of drinks, he said, "All right, look, I can tell you this. Aliens are real. They're here, and I've seen them." Then I came back at him with, "Okay, well, hold on a second. If what you're saying is true, how does everyone not know about it?" And he said, "Oh, lots of people know about it. 81. You could walk into any bookstore, and you're gonna find all sorts of books on the shelves with lots of truth. But right next to them are the books that we publish,

• 4:35Speaker 03

  full of propaganda. It's a multi-billion dollar campaign to cover up the truth."

• 4:47Speaker 00

  They're real, Mr. Harrington. They've been here a long time.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  So I needed to speak to John Harrington myself. Luckily, his grandson, shout out David, was a fan of the show. Knowing that this would be an uphill battle, but also a historic interview. And it's one that I hope body language experts analyze very closely.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Because we were down at Greenbrier. I think it was Greenbrier.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  John clearly didn't want to break any security oaths, something I don't blame him for. Do you know about the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office, NRO? Okay, that's public now.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Is it?

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  There's so much about the bottom of the ocean that we don't know.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  It seems like they might be finding things on the seafloor.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Yep, they are.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Kind of exotic and...

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Anything they want.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Did you ever work with Bobby Ray Inman? Guy who was Deputy Director of the CIA at the same time.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  No, we still see each other. He's up at the Bohemian Grove.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Do you think there are any elements of the government that systematically study this stuff, UFOs?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, the government does crazy stuff everywhere.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Did you ever know a guy named Harald Malmgren by any chance?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, in one of our briefings at the Energy Department.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Jesse, this goes back decades. If I told you there is an airplane powered by nuclear power sitting in a hangar in Idaho Falls, would you believe me?

• 6:13Speaker 01

  If, yeah, I don't know. Do you think that that's possible?

• 6:17Speaker 02

  It is, it's true. I know there are projects that are so secretive that there are great efforts to keep them classified.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Without further ado, this week's historic American alchemy episode with former Secretary of Energy, John Harrington.

• 6:35Speaker 06

  Ignition sequence five.

• 6:39Speaker 06

  How is this functioning? Nothing too unusual about that.

• 6:46Speaker 07

  Existence cannot longer be denied.

• 6:57Speaker 01

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• 8:25Speaker 01

  So if you're ready to be seen, head to zocdoc.com/jessemichaels. Again, that's zocdoc.com/jessemichaels, Michaels with no A, and check that appointment off your to-do list. The link's in the description.

• 8:44Speaker 08

  John, this is a total honor. I really appreciate you being here today. You were the fifth Secretary of Energy in the United States, and you were also the Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Manpower and Reserve Affairs. You were a close Reagan advisor for so many years. Your wife is here today. You guys are kind of a power couple. She also has an illustrious career in politics. And so, yeah, it's just an honor to be with you. I really appreciate you doing this. It's not every day that I get to speak to somebody of your caliber.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Well, I'm a listener. I enjoy your show, so I'm pleased to be here.

• 9:18Speaker 08

  Absolutely. Well, I don't even know where to start. I mean, there's so many kind of touch points and jumping off points, but do you remember your first interaction with Reagan?

• 9:29Speaker 02

  First interaction?

• 9:30Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  That would be Chicago.

• 9:33Speaker 08

  Do you remember what it was like, meeting him?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Well, he's a movie star. And you, growing up in LA, you know what movie stars are? I mean, you hold them in a little bit of awe. But I had read a lot about him, and I had worked with the guys that worked with him. And he's very understanding and very easy to get along with. He's the same man in public as he is in private, which you can't say for a lot of the politicians.

• 10:02Speaker 08

  Do you feel like he was very, not only personable, which is obvious from watching him, but high integrity and good to the people around him behind closed doors, not just kind of virtue signaling?

• 10:14Speaker 02

  He was. He was very good to everyone. If I had to look back on it, it was later during the building of the Reagan Library that we would say were more friendly, but in the government of the United States, working in the White House and at the high level, you're not his friend. You're a staff, and you're working to carry out policies. And if you don't believe that, you ought to go home. I saw him mad a couple of times, but

• 10:44Speaker 02

  he'd be disappointed mad, you know, if something happened that he didn't think should happen. When the SDI people tried to undermine him on that, he was not happy about that.

• 10:56Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  He really believed in that SDI, and that was one of his major programs, getting that out. And the staff fought him on that. They had a lot of people in the government that did not want the Strategic Defense Initiative. And the Russians did not want it. Even his own Secretary of State was against it.

• 11:16Speaker 08

  And describe what the Strategic Defense Initiative is. Again, to the average person, they know of it maybe as Star Wars. They think of it as some super science fiction, space lasers, you know, missile defense project, which it partly kind of was. But how would you describe it?

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, the President had been doing a lot of reading, a lot of thinking. And you need to get by the fact that some of the politicians and a lot of the press thought President was, you know, not smart, and he was nothing but an actor from Hollywood. Of course, his diaries have now been fully printed. I didn't know he was keeping a diary. So I started reading some of the stuff in it that I was doing, and it's very accurate.

• 12:01Speaker 08

  And... What does he write about you?

• 12:05Speaker 02

  This was a private meeting in the residence one night, and I'd rather not talk about that. I'm not going to write a book.

• 12:12Speaker 08

  Okay. But it's out there for anyone?

• 12:15Speaker 02

  It's in the diary.

• 12:17Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  And you have a book that came out from the Hoover Institution called "In His Own Hand." And what it is, it is absolutely proof that he wrote his own speeches. And of course, you have almost everybody in the government now claiming they did it, from one of the chief writers for the Wall Street Journal to a few others. They're all claiming they wrote the "Take Down the Wall, Mr. President" speech.

• 12:46Speaker 09

  Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  He put that.

• 12:53Speaker 08

  Peter Robinson thinks he... I've met Peter Robinson. He's at the Hoover Institute.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  And Peter is... You can take him to the bank. Peter is very good.

• 13:03Speaker 08

  But I think Peter Robinson said he wrote that speech for Reagan, didn't he?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Okay, now, here's what happened. The staff took it out of the speech, not once, but twice. And so, driving to the wall, the advance man that was with him, as a close friend of mine, the President put it back in again.

• 13:20Speaker 08

  Okay, okay.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall if you really believe in freedom," or whatever it was.

• 13:28Speaker 08

  Wow.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  And they thought that was too controversial. So now, we're going to go to SDI.

• 13:33Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  And he said, "Look, wouldn't it be wonderful at Academy if we could design something that would protect us from missiles?" And at that time, the United States had a policy with Russia called mutual assured destruction. What that meant was if they launch a missile, we will launch a missile. And if we launch one, they will launch one. Mutual assured destruction was our policy. It's crazy. If you'd had that with Iran today, and they had missiles, we would have both been blown off the face of the earth. So this was a new way of looking at it. He said, "Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have this system

• 14:16Speaker 02

  that would keep the missiles on a shield? They could never get to us?" And then he said, "I would be willing, as President, to share that system with any country that wanted it. I would let the Russians have the system." But it was expensive system. So it was kind of a surprise. The Pentagon was not quite ready for it. The Air Force was tasked to come up with ways to do it. Livermore Laboratory was part of it. You had some of the best scientists in the United States trying to figure out how to do it.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  One of the ones I liked the best was developed at Livermore. They would cause a nuclear explosion to go off in space. And they would focus the energy from that through a lens about the size of your thumbnail. And they claimed they could hit a silver dollar at 500 miles and disintegrate it.

• 15:22Speaker 08

  Jesus.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  I know.

• 15:24Speaker 08

  That's nuts.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  It was true. Now, that one did not get to the top of the list, because the whole idea of firing nuclear power in space, or a nuclear explosion, was not going to sell, obviously. So they worked in other ways, ground-based lasers, space-based lasers, and a lot of progress has been made in that. And it was called the Strategic Defense Initiative. The press panned it. Democrats panned it. Everybody called it Star Wars, after the movie. And they said it was crazy. Well, here we are doing it. The Global Dome, the Iron Dome, these are all coming into fruition now.

• 16:04Speaker 08

  The Golden Dome in the US.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Golden Dome.

• 16:07Speaker 08

  Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of people also thought of it as a kind of way to bankrupt the Soviets, or like, make them chase us or something.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  It was.

• 16:16Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  That ended the Cold War.

• 16:17Speaker 08

  Yeah. There's some interesting in it. You know about the Excalibur designs from Edward Teller?

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:22Speaker 08

  Sort of X-ray-based blasts that would take...

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Teller sat on my couch with me one afternoon. He was also a proponent of the one I just described. And he had brought a lens to show me, and how he was going to do it, but he was going to propel it with the explosion. Excalibur... Teller was an amazing man. He's the guy that figured out that if you inject certain elements into a nuclear explosion, you can turn it into a hydrogen explosion.

• 16:53Speaker 08

  Wow.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  He was a junior scientist at the Manhattan Project, but he's the guy that came up with the idea.

• 17:00Speaker 08

  Yeah, the Teller-Uhlam design for the hydrogen bomb. He had fights with Oppenheimer, because Oppenheimer was like, "This is too big for any target."

• 17:09Speaker 02

  I know.

• 17:09Speaker 08

  And he sort of, you know, ended up winning out. And what was Edward Teller like? What were your interactions with him like?

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Well, I was in awe. I mean, I didn't give him my view on the world. I sat and listened to him. There were just the two of us sitting on the couch in the Energy Department. He had a big cane, and he had the lens, and he has a thick German accent, older guy, and going to great lengths to explain how this is going to work. I would love to hear stories of the Manhattan Project and everything, but I didn't get into that. We spent about 45 minutes, I think.

• 17:45Speaker 08

  Were there anything outside of, you know, traditional nuclear that he talked about that was interesting?

• 17:50Speaker 02

  No. No. He's all business.

• 17:53Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  He's all business. And we didn't get into the weapons part of it at all. SDI was the only thing we got into.

• 18:02Speaker 08

  Uh huh. I want to bring up UFOs. As you know, I have a show that covers UFOs and kind of nature of reality. And Edward Teller's a great segue, because his name is actually on a document from 1949, and it's this green fireball problem. And it's him and Lincoln Lopaz, who's a meteor expert at the University of New Mexico, and a bunch of these kind of head honchos in the military, meeting, you know, on this recorded document at Los Alamos. And they're trying to figure out UFOs. And this has now been, you know, let out by the White House in their Pursue Act. And simultaneous to that, you have Directors of National Intelligence, like James Clapper, you have, you know...

• 18:45Speaker 02

  That's not a name I respect.

• 18:47Speaker 08

  Fair enough. Yeah, no, I have issues with him, too.

• 18:52Speaker 08

  John Brennan, also mixed bag, but you know, a lot of these.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  Likewise.

• 18:56Speaker 08

  CIA, for sure, but a lot of these kind of head haunches at the CIA saying, you know, this is real, this is a real issue. So, you know, consider me a strange bedfellow with, with some of these people, but you know, I, I think we have so much evidence that these things seem to show up around our nuclear sites. What, what do you think? And did you experience anything while you were Secretary of Energy around this?

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Well, we got a lot of rumors about what was happening in Area 51, which is a very highly classified area with a lot of projects that are highly classified going on, primarily defense related. Um, nothing about UFOs. Um, and honestly, I did not, during the time I was there, come across anything in our budgets or in our, um, programs that would lead me to have any knowledge in the UFO area. On the other hand, I am, I am not blind to what I see on television with these Navy gun cameras that are picking up off

• 20:05Speaker 02

  San Diego, the, the thing traveling at warp speed, diving into the ocean. I frankly, Jesse, I don't know what they are. Um, I don't know where they're coming from. My guess is the amount of power to send somebody with that kind of propulsion is not within our capability. And it's not within the capability of any country that I know of. You talk about the hypersonic missiles in China and things like that. This is so far above that. Um, they talk about Navy running into certain things in submarines. Those are

• 20:42Speaker 02

  probably whales. Um, but those gun camera films, they, they are not faked. In my estimation, the Navy would not do something like that. So there's something you're seeing. Um, does it come from somewhere else? I, I don't have an idea. Um, I'm a, I'm a practicing Christian. I believe strongly in the book of Genesis, that God created the earth and everything in it. If we have people coming from other planets, it puts a hole in my beliefs a little bit.

• 21:19Speaker 08

  Why does it? Well, first of all, it's, it would just be sort of, and I think they call it non-human intelligence is the kind of more official Pentagon nomenclature now, because it's not necessarily extraterrestrial. I think it's just consciousness that seems to transcend humans. You know, it seems like they're more advanced than us, uh, which is, you know, itself fascinating, but I think that's wholly consistent with biblical texts, you know?

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Well, it depends. I am, I'm listening to these people that know so much about it. They all say, I really know about it. It's really real. It's really real. They won't tell you what they've seen and they won't tell you who they've talked to. Uh, so, and I am now beginning to think, um, we got a Fauci syndrome underway in some of the area you're working. I watched, um, one of your guys.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side, but Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Sit here, who I know, and I talked to you about this, who absolutely fabricated a total story.

• 22:47Speaker 08

  So tell, tell the audience what you're talking about.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  You had a guy interviewed who used to be a neighbor of ours in Walnut Creek.

• 22:54Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  And we hired him to drive our car to Washington. He then claims that he saw me.

• 22:59Speaker 08

  What's his name real quick?

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Brent Friedman.

• 23:01Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  He said that I came home after he arrived in Washington and I had been to a secret place. I carried a briefcase chained to my wrist. I had a driver in a limousine. Uh, you gotta understand, I arrived in Washington as a peon. We didn't have briefcases chained. We didn't have limousines. We didn't have security. We didn't go to secret places. I was working in the White House at a lower level. Uh, so that's all of I. And then I told him that I'd been locked away for a month and I'd seen people from another planet. It's just total BS. He says I was like a father to him. I never even knew this kid, except as a baby next door. So it was all, it was all made up.

• 23:42Speaker 08

  What elements of the story aren't true? Cause did he, did he drive across the country?

• 23:47Speaker 02

  He drove across with two other friends. Uh, we had to move our cars to Washington because I was going back to live there and I had an appointment in the administration. And, um, I think they drove and our dog was in the car too. He, I knew he was a student at UCLA. I, I was interested because my mother went to UCLA and I always liked to meet UCLA people. Um, he said his father's an artist. That's true. His mother was living next door. We knew the father and the mother, uh, did not know Brent. He says he came over and we threw the football together. That didn't happen. We watched telephone, television together. We didn't happen. We had no get along at all. I, I was a kind of a father

• 24:31Speaker 02

  figure to him. That didn't happen. Um, but we did get his name because we were looking for some guys to drive the car. So he agreed to do it and we paid him and they came back and that was the end of it. Um, I was not working at the White House at the time he came back. I had a very lowly position. I didn't have a briefcase with a handcuff to my wrist. I didn't have a limousine. I didn't have security. All that came much later. Um, didn't go to any kind of secret site. I was working in personnel. We were reviewing resumes for positions in the government. Had nothing to do with something like that. Never saw him again.

• 25:12Speaker 08

  So, and at the time you were Assistant Secretary of the Navy for manpower and reservists?

• 25:16Speaker 02

  No, I was.

• 25:17Speaker 08

  Were you at White House Personnel?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  No, I was one step below that. I was working in the White House Political Office for Lindonoff-Singer.

• 25:23Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  As an intern for him and we were going through early stages of the Reagan administration. It was later that I came in as Personnel Department and I wasn't the head of it. I was.

• 25:35Speaker 08

  What year was that?

• 25:37Speaker 02

  It would be June of 81.

• 25:40Speaker 08

  81. So that, that was after Brent had come?

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:44Speaker 08

  Okay. And he said something about an underground facility in West Virginia?

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Well, there is. There is a hotel down there. It's, it's been put out of service now, but it's been built under Eisenhower. I forget which hotel it is, something springs. I think it's where Roosevelt died. I'm not sure.

• 26:00Speaker 08

  I thought it was Green, Greenbrier, maybe?

• 26:02Speaker 02

  It could be Greenbrier.

• 26:03Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  But they have a huge underground facility where the Congress and the president were all to be put to run the government.

• 26:10Speaker 10

  The bunker is basically a giant concrete box that has two foot thick concrete walls, reinforced with steel all the way around it. It's buried under 20 feet of earth. Took 50,000 tons of concrete to build it all.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  And it was later when I was Secretary of Energy, I got to see that because we were down at Greenbrier, or I think it was Greenbrier, playing golf. And I went and toured that thing. By that time, Greenbrier had been moved up to Maryland and a facility in Maryland, which was the same. And of course, they have, that facility was during the eighties and they have a system to remove people to preserve the government. I was number 16. I remember because my daughter sewed a big 16 on the back of my swimsuit. And, uh, so you're the 16th person to be moved if they kill everybody above you. So, and it's a, it's a facility

• 27:05Speaker 02

  they do have. And I, I'm sure since 1990, they've improved that a lot. And I'm beginning to think there's going to be a lot of that under the ballroom at the White House because that's a vast system they're building under there.

• 27:18Speaker 08

  So, so, so you have been there a couple of times in your career, once in the eighties and once in the nineties?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  No, not once in the nineties. I went to the Greenbrier, it would be 86, probably, 87.

• 27:31Speaker 08

  Okay, got it. So this was after you'd never, had you ever been before the Brent experience?

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Never.

• 27:38Speaker 08

  Interesting.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Or anything even like it.

• 27:40Speaker 08

  Okay. I'm going to get some flack if I, if I don't offer this. Would we be able to maybe patch in Brent and you could clear up the, the story and tell him, you know?

• 27:51Speaker 02

  I'm through with Brent. He's a, he's a young man that's fallen in love with Hollywood and he's got the Fauci syndrome and, um, he's, you know, he's welcome to it.

• 28:01Speaker 08

  So you don't want to talk to him?

• 28:03Speaker 02

  No, not really.

• 28:04Speaker 08

  Okay, fair enough. Um, yeah, I don't know. It's a bummer because he, he seemed.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  I hope he sees the interview and realizes what an idiot he's been.

• 28:12Speaker 08

  Oh, well, he seems kind of earnest, you know, he doesn't.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, he does, doesn't he?

• 28:16Speaker 08

  Yeah. So, so his story's just.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Total and complete BS.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Brent, thank you for being here, man. I just did this long interview with John and he actually brought you up and he was like, you know, that story is totally made up. And he said he only knew you as a baby. Said he sort of, you know, created some distance, said that like you wouldn't come over and play football with him. How does it make you feel just him kind of denying the thing outright?

• 28:52Speaker 03

  Two ways. The first way is the obvious, which is disappointment that after all of these years and contextually with disclosure coming out and a lot of people feeling compelled to tell the truth. A lot of whistleblowers are putting their, their, their, their reputation and maybe in some cases their life on the line for this greater good to get the truth out there, you know, and honestly, you know, it's not true. John taught me how to play football. My father was an artist. He was an introvert. John was a man's man. John not only taught me to play football, he got me inspired in football. I was growing up to be an artist and I ended up playing football all through grade school, junior high, high

• 29:35Speaker 03

  school, because he took the time to teach me how to play football. And we used to watch football games on in his living room. He was a huge redskin fan. He also taught me to be competitive. So I became a Cowboys fan. I am still a Cowboys fan irrationally. I grew up in California, but it was great to just sit there and be competitive with him on the sofa. So, yeah, he can stiff arm me if he wants, but that was our relationship. And that's why I've said in different interviews and on Soundlight and Frequency that he was like a second father to me. I didn't, I was much more than a baby. I lived there next door to him between the ages of six and 12, the formative years. On the other hand, I

• 30:17Speaker 03

  do have to respect the fact that at the end of our conversation that I had with him that night out on the veranda, I kind of took all of what he said in and I said to him, how do you know I'm not going to tell other people about this? And he said, well, I'm sure you are. The question is, who's going to believe you? And I didn't really think anything of it at the time. And he said, and by the way, if you use my name and everything, I'm just going to deny it.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  When was this exact interaction transpired in 1981, right?

• 30:47Speaker 03

  Yes. The summer of 81 was when I was, had graduated high school and I was then going to go off to college at UCLA.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  And what was John Harrington's exact position then?

• 30:59Speaker 03

  I believe it was something to the effect of he was on special assignment for the president. What I heard later through my mom was that he was involved in the AB scam investigation and had been for a period even leading up to, to after the election in November and before the administration took over. He was somehow involved in that. And, but that was as much as we knew, like, and he didn't tell me when we were talking anything about what he was doing actively. He only told me about this briefing experience he had. There were two things that John said that, you know, aside from this idea that he used, he told me he cried himself to sleep every night. Like, that's the kind of the pull quote from

• 31:44Speaker 03

  that interview. Like, why would a guy at that level be crying himself to sleep every night? It was certainly profound for me because I looked at him as a man's man. Like, so him crying at all seemed odd. I assumed that he was unburdening himself. I assumed that being the man he was, he would not burden his wife and daughters with this truth. But I could see that physically it was a huge burden on him. He had physically looked very haggard. And so, but when he told me all about the alien stuff, I said to him at the end, I said, well, okay, now I think I understand why you were crying yourself to sleep every night. And he goes, no, Brent, you don't understand. That was like day three. The implication

• 32:23Speaker 03

  being is that his briefing took months. And, and this was almost trivial to him. This was like him throwing me a bone. And so, the alien thing is, is feels like, like a footnote in whatever is kind of going on. I mean, it's certainly a piece of the puzzle, but we've come to understand on Soundline Frequency, there's something much bigger going on that has more to do with kind of Psy and ESP. And I think that's probably something more that would cause you to cry, like the idea that reality is not at all what it seems and there are beings that have access into our minds potentially. That's unsettling. That

• 33:05Speaker 03

  I could see if you're a parent, you might cry yourself to sleep every night, but not the idea, oh, we have some bodies in a hangar somewhere. That's, that's not tier worthy in my mind. And he said, look, we live in a God fearing country. Again, 1981. There only one thing that keeps this world spinning. Gives everybody the control they need. That's the global economy. If you disrupt that by taking away the reason for people to live their lives, everything falls apart and governments of the world will not be able to control the populace. So what's the advantage of giving people the truth? And I was like, well,

• 33:50Speaker 03

  so you're telling me it'll never come out? He said, if it has to. I said, well, in our lifetime? Maybe.

• 33:57Speaker 11

  The one thing that's most obvious, and Jesse, you must know this yourself, you're all your, many of your audience does, there are underground facilities in West Virginia, but we did not know about them until the Washington Post, I think it was the Post that broke this story in the 90s about Greenbrier Inn. And there's another one. And Greenbrier was where they were going to evacuate Congress in the event of nuclear war. So there was a place, but in 1981, nobody knew that.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Do you think he was talking about Greenbrier?

• 34:26Speaker 03

  He didn't say, but again, he was talking about an underground facility in West Virginia. I only, the only thing I knew about West Virginia was that it was west of Virginia. Like, I didn't know anything.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  What's funny is he, he said he went to Greenbrier, but he said he went in 87. And he was like, yeah, it's just this continuity of government thing where, you know, there's an attack in DC, like, you know, that's where the president and Congress goes.

• 34:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. So again, that story was laced with details. He talked about the global economy, how this would disrupt the global economy. He talked about it being a God fearing nation. I was never raised religiously, so even that term God fearing nation, it didn't really, I was like, I don't, I think I know what that means, but I'm not even quite sure.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  I don't need to get into a who shot John with a, you know, a 30 year old.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  No, I get it. It, the only thing that, you know, you just seem so high integrity and straight up. And then he's been very cool with me too. And he seems very honest and earnest in his retires. So I don't, I get that obviously he, he works in Hollywood, but I, he doesn't, I don't think he's like monetizing his story with you. It's not making money.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  I thought they had a production company. I read somewhere that he and the guy that was with him on your show had a production company.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  I don't know exactly what they're doing, but they're not, I don't think they're monetizing this story. I think he just, you know, told it a couple of times.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Any kind of public exposure. I don't care what you say about me. Just say something. You know, that's, that's what they used to believe.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Fair enough. Okay.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  I'll see if he'll go in front of Congress.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  I'm sure he would. I'm sure he'd happily go.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  He'll have to raise his right hand and swear.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think he would. I think he would. That's the sense I get.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  That's getting him pretty deep at that point.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  I think a polygraph would be interesting. I think if you pass that, that would be awesome.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  And I don't know, but.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm willing to do, I mean, if people are that interested in whether this happened or not, I'm happy to do it.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Have you made any substantial money off of the story?

• 36:30Speaker 03

  I mean, it's, we can have an offline talk about the, the economics of podcasting, but the amount of money that Bryce and I have made off of Soundlight and Frequency, which is really where the whole story was, you know, disclosed and monetized, as it were, is so far below what my daily rate is in Hollywood and on in gaming, that it's almost a joke. So yes, I have been very lightly compensated for some of my time, but this is not a money-making endeavor at all. It's more just, I've said this before, and I know this can sound disingenuous, but I sat on a lot of the, my stories, my personal stories,

• 37:14Speaker 03

  and certainly all of the details of this story until I had cancer and I almost died. And at that moment, when I was in my, on my deathbed and watching light beings come to the foot of my bed, I had the sense that there was something I hadn't done and I just wasn't ready. And so, all of that kind of doorway went away and I got better and here I am. And my kids said in retrospect, thank God you didn't die because you have so many incredible stories and we would have been the ones telling them secondhand, right? You should tell your stories while you're still, where you got a second chance. And I thought, you know what? I don't know if that's what I'm supposed to do, but that's what I'm going to do. And so really that was kind of the impetus for why I even agreed

• 37:59Speaker 03

  to do Soundlight and Frequency. But, but the point is, is that, you know, I told a few friends in college and they kind of just thought it was a fun story. They didn't really believe me. I told, you know, people I was dating at some point and was getting serious with as kind of a litmus test. Like, okay, I'm going to tell you something now. And if you don't think I'm crazy, then maybe we have a future. But for the most part, people didn't believe me. The first person that really believed me was Bryce Sable. When I told him the story and he said, well, I mostly believe you because this aligns with a lot of research I've done. See, here's the thing, I never used John Harrington's name until probably 2000.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Nineteen or 20 or something when Ross Coldheart got me on camera and just pushed me so hard that, and he kind of already had known because Bryce had told him. And so he used, and I was like, I couldn't get out of it at the, so that was the first time that I used John Harrington's name on camera. Cause it felt like, okay, well now people know it's gonna come out. Um, but up until then I was, I was respectful. I told the story, but I didn't actually use his name until that point. Here's another little interesting data point. Um, when the show was, uh, right before it was launching, kind of the week before it premiered, I got a buck slip from John Harrington. I hadn't talked with him in a number of years. Um, but I remember those

• 39:24Speaker 03

  buck slips, the long vertical, kind of like stiff cards. And it says, from the desk of, I get one that says, from the desk of John Harrington. Hey Brent, you finally got your story out there. Congratulations. So he was-

• 39:38Speaker 08

  Did you save that?

• 39:39Speaker 03

  I, it's somewhere in my files. I don't know where it is. I gotta find it because I can't imagine I would have thrown it away. I just, my problem is, I'm not an organized person. So there's, uh, it's, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna do some hunting. I also, part of me says too, like, you know, I think time is on my side with disclosure coming out. Um, how do I explain the fact that Dave Grusch called me to get insight into how to talk to John Harrington? Why would Dave Grusch want to talk to John Harrington if John Harrington doesn't know anything? He said to me, the gist of it was, we've identified John Harrington as one, as a very important

• 40:20Speaker 03

  person who has oral history of a period where a bunch of documentation does not exist anymore.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  I don't mean to malign your next guest. Is it David Gersh?

• 40:32Speaker 08

  David Grusch?

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 08

  Yeah. What about him?

• 40:35Speaker 02

  So I, I turned on his testimony to the Senate.

• 40:37Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  And listened very carefully to it. He loved it. He was in the center of attention and he's telling them all this stuff by not telling them anything. And then afterwards, he's interviewed on the street by about 20 reporters and he's doing the same thing and he's loving it and he's the center of attention. I'm thinking to myself-

• 40:55Speaker 08

  So you're not a fan of his?

• 40:56Speaker 02

  He's having a good time. No, I talked to him on the phone.

• 40:59Speaker 08

  You did. You spoke to David Grusch?

• 41:01Speaker 02

  I did. And I said, you know, I respect his career. He's 20 years in the air force as a intelligence officer, but Washington is full of people who are looking to get into the mix and be recognized and-

• 41:16Speaker 08

  I don't think David Grusch is a good example of that. I don't think he's very attention seeking. He, he's, um, you know, he handled the presidential daily brief and he was up for actually a big promotion. He's sort of got completely, uh, all these reprisals and kind of maligned in his career and ended up having to, having to leave because of wanting more transparency on this issue. So I, I think he was on a pretty good track before this and I don't think it's done him any favors.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  All right. Well, I take it back calling him a Fauci, but I will say this, I would like David to tell me specifically what he saw and specifically who he talked to, not generalities.

• 41:53Speaker 08

  Yeah, no, I think a lot of people are, are waiting on that and, uh, would be very interested.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  Do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash?

• 42:02Speaker 04

  Uh, deceased. They were killed.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  They were killed? So we killed them?

• 42:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  They are mortal. So-

• 42:11Speaker 03

  So how'd we kill them?

• 42:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  Did we shoot them?

• 42:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  We shot the reptilians.

• 42:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 03

  Jesus.

• 42:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:17Speaker 08

  So you felt like your conversations with him were, were they productive at all?

• 42:21Speaker 02

  No, he called, he wrote me a beautiful letter, a long, two-page letter.

• 42:24Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  And, uh, he asked if I would call him and I called him and we talked and I said, look, David, I, I don't know anything about UFOs. I can't add to your knowledge.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  I was approached last November by, um, a journalist formerly with, um, Politico, Ben Shiz- Shizserling or something to that effect. Um, and, uh, he said that he had heard my story going around about John Harrington and wanted to get my side of the story. And this was pre-sound light and frequency. So I said, well, I'm going to tell my story in the podcast. So when that comes out, you'll have everything you need to know. And he said, okay, well, just so you understand, John says, he doesn't even remember you. You, you might've been his neighbor. He has no recollection, but you never drove any cars across the country and

• 43:18Speaker 03

  he certainly never talked to you about aliens. So-

• 43:22Speaker 08

  Did he publish that, that journalist?

• 43:24Speaker 03

  Uh, well, that journalist has reached back out to me because he is oddly, coincidentally, um, this week or end of last week, he suddenly decided the story was viable or vital and he wanted to give me one last chance to kind of refute everything, uh, which I denied.

• 43:46Speaker 08

  But he said, uh, that John told him that he didn't even know you or he didn't remember knowing you or what was the-

• 43:55Speaker 03

  He said he didn't, he didn't know me at all the way that I claimed he, I might've been his neighbor. He, he really wasn't clear. He had no memory of that, but he completely denied driving the cars across the country. Um, so either his memory was coming back to him over time, uh, by the, between November of last year and when he spoke to you, I don't know. Um, but I remember the impact of hearing that. I talked, I talked to my mom who always had stayed close with John and his, particularly his wife Lois and said, yeah, John said he didn't even remember us. And she, I mean, she honestly started crying. She was like, the Harringtons were some of our

• 44:36Speaker 03

  best friends. John threw me my 33rd birthday at his restaurant, Victoria's Station. I have photos of it and-

• 44:42Speaker 08

  How much time elapsed between his first outreach to you and, you know, now?

• 44:47Speaker 03

  Well, so it was November of like November last year, like November 23rd or something last year. And then, um, we exchanged texts kind of on and off over the holidays and the last contact I had with him was January 3rd, I believe. And then literally last week, out of the blue, um, he suddenly felt this story had, uh, had juice.

• 45:12Speaker 08

  So almost a year went by and radio silence and then all of a sudden pops back up when I happen to be interviewing John.

• 45:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

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• 45:51Speaker 03

  I don't, I mean, is that, uh, the phenomenon or is it something else? I don't know.

• 45:56Speaker 08

  I don't know.

• 46:00Speaker 08

  So you know, nothing of any of these sort of like, uh, you know, reverse engineering or, uh, crash retrievals or, you know, I think the one that feels most ubiquitous to me is just UFOs showing up at nuclear sites all over the country. There's a great book called UFOs and nukes. And you have 170 of these guys who are, you know, missile security radar operators. They're super honest guys and they don't get into that job to be famous. And they come out and they say they see Tic Tac saucers orbs, sometimes tampering with the nukes.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  When you say a nuke site, do you mean commercial electricity generation or defense sites?

• 46:37Speaker 08

  I mean, air force bases that are, you know, air force bases and national labs, but specifically places that house nuclear weapons. So places like Malmstrom, uh, air force base in Montana, uh, Ellsworth air force base in South Dakota, Effie Warren, places like that, Savannah Riverside, Seal Beach, and even Vandenberg, which is just, you know, missile testing, as you know.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  So the Chinese send a balloon over and it looks at sites. And you're saying someone else is probably sending something else.

• 47:08Speaker 08

  Seems like right when we built nukes, something showed up and it wasn't human.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Me, it goes back until the 40s?

• 47:15Speaker 08

  Goes back till the 40s. Yeah.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  I, I don't know. I don't have any information to give you. I, I will, I will tell you, Area 51 has been suspect for years. Um, there's a lot going on there on defense related activities, but nothing that I know about, um, with, uh, any kind of UFOs.

• 47:38Speaker 08

  Did you ever know a guy named Harald Malmgren by any chance? What, what'd you know about him?

• 47:43Speaker 02

  I met him and I know the name and that's about all.

• 47:46Speaker 08

  Was he, uh, was, what was he?

• 47:47Speaker 02

  He wouldn't remember me.

• 47:49Speaker 08

  No, I, I bet you he would, but what, how did you get to know him?

• 47:55Speaker 02

  I think it would have been in one of our briefings at the energy department. I, you have to tell me what he did. I might come back to me.

• 48:02Speaker 08

  He was, um, well, he did a bunch of things. He was an economic advisor for, um, JFK, LBJ, Nixon and Ford. And he was doing a lot of trade stuff. Um, and, uh, but he is, his closest mentor was a guy named Richard Bissell, who founded Area 51, was the deputy director of the CIA. And, um, yeah, it's just a fascinating guy. So yeah, I was curious to hear-

• 48:26Speaker 02

  I would have read the name, I think. I, I'm not sure I met him then. The name sounds very familiar.

• 48:31Speaker 08

  He, he definitely would have been involved in some ways with the, the Reagan White House. And, um, though the reason I bring him up is because at the end of his life, he claimed to have held, uh, UFO material that came down, uh, from, uh, a nuclear, a high altitude nuclear test in the Marshall Islands. Um, so there's this test called Bluegill triple prime, part of the starfish prime test series and material seemed to come out of the sky and then it made its way to Sandia complex. Um, and this guy Lawrence Preston Geis, who was the head of the Atomic Energy Commission Albuquerque branch, ended up founding DARPA. He had this material in his hands and he gave it to Harald Malmgren. Harald Malmgren was in charge of the kind of

• 49:13Speaker 08

  cost assessments for this whole, you know, missile defense program.

• 49:17Speaker 12

  He said, well, he reached for some stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  I'm looking at, yeah, this is the round rock.

• 49:33Speaker 08

  So you're looking at like anomalous material?

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:35Speaker 08

  Debris?

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I know, instead of handling it.

• 49:39Speaker 08

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 49:42Speaker 08

  And Harold apparently said that this whole thing was actually devised to take down UFOs. And that it, that made its way into, you know, Edward Teller's Excalibur designs for Strategic Defense Initiative, which scaled up this sort of UFO crash retrieval program.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  I don't have any knowledge on that. Or I would ask you, where is the material today?

• 50:06Speaker 08

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Why aren't they carbon dating it and telling us what it is?

• 50:10Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, did you see anything at the time that you felt kind of was really ontologically shocking? Where you were like, the reality I know from the civil side world might be turned on its head a little bit, or a little different than I thought it was?

• 50:25Speaker 02

  We heard, we heard rumors from protesters and things like that. They're always making up stuff.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  I, I used to fly spec our budget. And I, I found something in the budget that, that really bothered me. Huge item. And I wanted to know what it was. And they said, you don't need to know this.

• 50:49Speaker 08

  What was it?

• 50:51Speaker 08

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• 52:16Speaker 08

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• 52:27Speaker 02

  I, I used to fly spec our budget. And I, I found something in the budget that, that really bothered me. Huge item. And I wanted to know what it was. And they said, you don't need to know this.

• 52:42Speaker 08

  What was it?

• 52:43Speaker 02

  It was the F-117 fighter. Being developed our first fighter that was undetectable by radar. And it was based in the energy department land in the Nevada desert, underground. And the air force did not want me to see it, but was in our budget. So I, I finally said, I want to see it. And I want to sat in one and, you know, they flew them only at night until one crashed. And then it became very public. So it's not classified anymore. But I know there are projects that are so secretive that there are great efforts to keep them.

• 53:22Speaker 08

  There was a budget line item from the eighties called the Aurora. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It was like a Lockheed program, so billions of dollars as well.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Well, Lockheed Skunk Works are famous. That's where F-117 was built and the, the UR planes, they're all built right in the Burbank Airport, right in that building, right next to them.

• 53:44Speaker 08

  Did you ever meet Ben Rich, the head of Lockheed Skunk Works?

• 53:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:47Speaker 08

  What did you think of him?

• 53:49Speaker 02

  You can't, I met him. Okay. And then, and they, they come out and they shake hands and, you know, you're a government official and they need the money.

• 53:58Speaker 08

  Did you get, ever get a sense that he knew something about UFOs? Do you think UFOs were being used as a cover for these high altitude recon planes? So obviously you have the U2 spy plane and SR-71.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  SR-71 is a big one.

• 54:11Speaker 08

  Everybody knows about those now. Do you think that UFOs are just kind of the, the follow ups of those things? Or to me, it's obvious there's something else going on that where they seem to show up around nuclear sites, nuclear detonations.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  Well, you're, you're asking me to really speculate. I, I can't do that on that.

• 54:26Speaker 08

  Fair enough.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  I need some sort of concrete evidence or, I mean, if you had that material and it was analyzed and it turned out to be a super moon rock or something, we, you know, maybe we, maybe we could talk more about it.

• 54:42Speaker 08

  Well, okay, super concrete example would be Oak Ridge National Laboratory. So as part of this pursue executive branch act, Trump is now, you know, releasing documents on UFOs. And at Oak Ridge in the 50s, there's a technical document that talks about magnesium and bismuth with isotope ratios that, you know, seem like they're bonded on an atomic level, which we definitely, we can't do now, let alone back then. And they're studying this thing and it's a total enigma. And so this is an official document that the White House is kind of endorsing.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Is it still being studied?

• 55:18Speaker 08

  Yes, yeah. In fact, um, you know, we're in the bay right now. At Stanford, there's a professor named Gary Nolan, who actually has another piece of magnesium bismuth from a, a crash on the beach in Brazil, an Ubatuba.

• 55:31Speaker 13

  So, you know, we did, uh, we did a mass spectrometry analysis of some of those pieces with a highly sensitive instrument. And one of them was anomalous. The magnesium ratios were way off. I mean, not even close to being natural.

• 55:49Speaker 08

  And it's also, yeah, magnesium bismuth with isotope ratios. I think the magnesium isotope ratios specifically are just way out of whack for anything you'd ever expect on earth. The purity level is, you know, standards of deviations higher.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  So the next question for him is, where did it come from?

• 56:05Speaker 08

  I don't know. I'm asking, you know, you had.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  He has it.

• 56:10Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  And he's written a report on it.

• 56:12Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  And it's otherworldly.

• 56:14Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 56:14Speaker 02

  Where did you get it? I found it on a beach?

• 56:17Speaker 08

  In Brazil, in the 50s.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  In Brazil?

• 56:19Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  What was a Stanford professor doing in Berkeley on a beach?

• 56:23Speaker 08

  No, so, so there was a fisherman in, uh, Ubatuba, Brazil, on the beach, sees this thing flying around in all sorts of, you know, ways that, you know, transcended any sort of flight patterns at the time. This is before drones ever were a thing, let alone in Brazil. And, uh, you know, this thing seemed to kind of like explode in the air. There was this like, uh, you know, almost like a big event where like it flamed out and a little piece of it, which could have been almost like exhaust or like slag from it came down. And this fisherman retrieved it. It then ended up making its way to, I believe, Jacques Vallée, who is this sort of French godfather of UFO research who publishes his address online.

• 57:06Speaker 08

  He then gives it to Gary Nolan, who can do mass spectrometry on it. Cause he's this, you know, official scientist at Stanford. And so that's, that's the provenance.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  So the most interesting thing you said to me, something happened to it in the air. It exploded or it came apart or was shot down or something caused part of it to fall. The question is, where's the rest of it? And if it's subject to failure in the air, what failed and who caused it to fail? That type of thing. Those questions hit me before a rock, a guy picked up on a beach and has gone through five hands and has ended up at Stanford, which I've lost some of my faith in Stanford, even though I'm alumni.

• 57:54Speaker 08

  Well, the isotope ratios speak for themselves. Those are strange, you know? But yeah, no, I hear you. What, what exactly interfered with it? I don't know. Some people think that, uh, directed energy or high powered radar seems to interfere with the flight paths of these UFOs. And that's why they come down. You know, that, that, that was sort of talked about in, in, you know, a lot of these documentaries that are being endorsed at the highest levels, so.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I've seen laser technology that could bring down almost anything.

• 58:25Speaker 08

  You know, Reagan also made some interesting statements that I forgot to bring up when we were, when we were speaking in person. You know, in 1974, while he was governor of California, his pilot was a guy named Bill Painter. And they were flying in a Cessna near Bakersfield. And apparently Painter described, uh, basically this steady light, basically UFO, 100 yards behind the plane that suddenly accelerated, seemed to elongate and then shot upwards at a 45 degree angle. And Reagan said to Painter, let's follow it.

• 59:04Speaker 08

  As it's kind of a joke. Did you ever hear anything about this? I know you, you had been, you know, alongside Reagan for many years, even pre, pre his presidency, you were his advance man.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  No, I heard about that. And I, and just to add to that, it was right near that time. I'm not sure it was exactly that same trip. Well, we were coming into.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Chico for an event that would be during the same event. Peter was flying and, and we came roaring in on a runway, landed, went screaming down till the end. And I said, where's the crowd? And Peter has landed at the wrong airport. So we took off again and flew farther north and landed at Chico and had the event. So these things happen, I guess, you know?

• 59:54Speaker 08

  So do you think, but it seems like maybe these things are otherworldly, like they're not, you know?

• 59:58Speaker 02

  That's the word that gets me, otherworldly.

• 1:00:01Speaker 08

  Well, yeah.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  I want to know where the world is.

• 1:00:03Speaker 08

  But in the 40s and 50s, who, who would have built these things? You know, you, you could come up with some sort of, you know, ex-Nazi Boys in Brazil narrative where they had exotic, you know, uh, flight capabilities that they were building, but.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  They would have built them in Hollywood. They built anything in Hollywood.

• 1:00:20Speaker 08

  Hmm. Hmm. So, but you think that this is all explained by, by Hollywood, all of the UFO sightings at nuclear.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  But Jesse, this goes back decades. Look at, what in the 30s when, um, what's his name had the war of the worlds broadcast to the country?

• 1:00:36Speaker 08

  Orson Welles.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Orson Welles broadcast war of the world. And the country went nuts and everybody believed it.

• 1:00:43Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  This is not new.

• 1:00:46Speaker 08

  No, it's not. But I mean, simultaneous to that, you had, you know, you were in Los Angeles at the time. There was something called the Battle of Los Angeles, which made its way all the way to George Marshall, who was Secretary of State at the time, where a UFO was seen all the way down the coast of, of California from, you know, uh, Santa Monica into Long Beach and to San Diego. And it was tracked all the way. So there is kind of a longstanding tradition of real sightings too.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  And where did it go?

• 1:01:15Speaker 08

  Nobody knows. But you know, so I think on the one hand, the first rule of kind of intelligence or defense is if you don't understand a thing, don't admit it. But I don't think that's right. I think if you want to make progress on a thing, I think you, you just let it out. You open source it. It's like the transistor, right? In the, in the 50s, you know, when the transistor really came online, they were thinking, maybe this, we should apply the invention secrecy act to this. Maybe we should clamp down on it. We don't want, you know, the Soviets or the Chinese to get this or whatever. And then at one, at another point, they go, no, we're gonna, we're gonna let it out. And then we're gonna run fast as hell and we're gonna win. And, uh, you know, why, why can't we do the same thing on, you know, this sort of stuff? If something exists in the realm

• 1:01:58Speaker 08

  of fundamental science and ontological truth, you know, I think the people deserve to know.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  So with my background and my age, I'm looking at AI, which I don't understand. And I've seen the fakery on AI. Well, along with my grandson has done a couple of things for me to play jokes on friends. Fascinating. He, he took a friend of mine, dressed him up in a, in a coat and tie. This guy's in, down in Newport Beach, dressed him up in a black tie, coat and tie, put him on the stage of the Grammys, receiving an award by Barack Obama. Okay. All that done, just like that. So I don't know what you can trust in the AI now that's coming to us. I, I would trust the naval gun camera and some of these

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  shots that are, that are on the TV now. But from here on out, I'm, I'm going to be a skeptic on what I see.

• 1:02:55Speaker 08

  Cause a lot of these guys, like there's this guy Jay Stratten, another guy Jim Lekatsky. A lot of these guys have really deep histories and, you know, intelligence, they're, you know, senior officers, intelligence officers, uh, in one case, a rocket scientist. And they say they've gone inside these crafts. I mean, actually, under your tenure, there's a guy named Bob Lazar. I don't know.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  They've gone inside the craft.

• 1:03:15Speaker 08

  That's what they say, inside a hangar. They've gone inside a craft of non-human origin.

• 1:03:19Speaker 14

  You told us, because you were allowed to tell us, that our government has a UFO in its possession and has been able to access the inside of it, right?

• 1:03:29Speaker 12

  Yes.

• 1:03:30Speaker 08

  And this guy Bob Lazar said he worked at S4, Area 51 in 1989. And, or I guess he came out in 89, but yeah, it was 80, between 88 and 89. And he said he got the job through Edward Teller. Have you ever seen, there's a, there's a video of, um, Edward Teller being questioned on his relationship with you. It's really funny.

• 1:03:50Speaker 15

  And if I ask you on camera, if you know Bob Lazar, can you just say no?

• 1:03:55Speaker 12

  I will sit silently.

• 1:03:58Speaker 08

  And so it's, it's just so fascinating.

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  What did he do? He went inside?

• 1:04:03Speaker 08

  He actually worked on reverse engineering the craft. So, uh, there were, there are a few different initiatives and one was, uh, seeing if you could derive any sort of directed energy principles. The other was seeing if you could recreate the propulsion of the craft. So that, that was a really big part of what he was doing. He was trying to stabilize, uh, you know, uh, heavy elements, do things like that. So there's this, uh, element 115 that they found, you know?

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  So I, I would say this, uh, he would be telling the truth if he was reverse engineering equipment in Area 51, because there is equipment there that we acquired from other governments.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  That we're using to develop certain things.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't think that's all classified yet, but there's a lot of classified stuff there that I wouldn't talk about.

• 1:04:59Speaker 08

  For sure. But it, it does seem like these UFOs show up around nuclear. There's even a case also in the White House, you know, pursue act 2015, uh, you know, Pantex facility in Texas where they assemble the nuclear weapons. And there's this diamond, you know, shaped UFO and it's hovering there. It's caught by radar, two missile security officers. And so it's hard to, I feel like deny that there's this kind of longstanding ubiquitous connection between nuclear and even, and yeah, I just got back from Japan and in there, next to their civilian energy grid in Fukushima, they see UFOs all the time, so much so that they built a museum dedicated to UFOs in the 90s. So, uh, you know, I think there's a pattern.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, that's, that's something I didn't know about. We have, we've been to Fukushima.

• 1:05:45Speaker 08

  Okay, nice.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  And, um, I'm happy to point out, we were with there, the guy that led the delegation on what happened. And, and Fukushima did not kill anybody. It was the typhoon that killed him.

• 1:05:57Speaker 08

  Hmm.

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  That drowned him, but the, but the reactor itself was not flawed. The, um,

• 1:06:03Speaker 08

  There's a video though, from that disaster where UFOs are everywhere. And it's almost like they're doing cleanup, which is just so fascinating. Steven Spielberg actually made a documentary about it.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think Steven Spielberg's stuff is amazing.

• 1:06:17Speaker 08

  It's amazing.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  It's just amazing.

• 1:06:19Speaker 08

  And he's such a believer. And he's, he, you know, says, I have a sneaking suspicion that, you know, this isn't fiction, what I'm doing with disclosure debt.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  You gotta, you gotta worry what Hollywood does. I, I mean, they, they do change everything.

• 1:06:33Speaker 08

  But I, I think it's not just Hollywood. You, did you ever work with Bobby Ray Inman?

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  All the time. Good friend.

• 1:06:39Speaker 08

  So there, so, you know, very high up guy. He was, you know, head of the NSA, deputy director of the CIA at the same time.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  No, we still see each other.

• 1:06:47Speaker 08

  Oh, that's amazing.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  He's up at the Bohemian Grove.

• 1:06:49Speaker 08

  Oh, very cool. So he, so he actually is on record talking about, he says, I don't know when the UFO truths will ever come out, you know, but, you know, they will at some point. And he seemed like he was very deep on, on this issue.

• 1:07:03Speaker 06

  Do you, uh, anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be, uh, become available for, uh, technological research outside of the, uh, military circles?

• 1:07:16Speaker 16

  Again, I honestly don't know. Uh, 10 years ago, the answer would have been no. Whether as time has evolved, they're beginning to become more open on it, is a possibility?

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  I'll ask him.

• 1:07:29Speaker 08

  Okay. Yeah.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  I will.

• 1:07:31Speaker 08

  I'd love to interview him. That'd be amazing.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Oh, he's a neat guy.

• 1:07:34Speaker 08

  He founded, do you know about the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office, NRO? Okay. That's public now. It's a, it's, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  Was it Bob Bellard elected with that too? The guy that found the Titanic?

• 1:07:46Speaker 08

  I think so. Yeah.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. He was, uh, close to Inman and.

• 1:07:49Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  He, he runs all the low, uh, deep submersible stuff.

• 1:07:53Speaker 08

  Yeah. It seems like they might be finding things on the seafloor.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:07:56Speaker 08

  That are kind of exotic and.

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  Anything they want.

• 1:07:59Speaker 08

  Yeah. Yeah. But that's what this guy Bob Lazar at Area 51, he said that what the crafty, or they found, one of the crafts they found was found on the seafloor.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  So this is, you make an interesting point that I forgot to mention. I, I was thinking about this the other day, just because I saw another picture of one. There's so much about the bottom of the ocean that we don't know.

• 1:08:21Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  There could be, instead of another planet, it could all be coming from the bottom of the ocean.

• 1:08:27Speaker 08

  Do you think there's a chance of that?

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  I have no idea.

• 1:08:31Speaker 08

  Have you seen any evidence around that?

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  I've seen all these crazy fish they're finding and the, the sunken ships they're now bringing up and the, the Russian sub they found. And I don't know.

• 1:08:42Speaker 08

  Do you think there's something to like a movie like James Cameron's The Abyss, where you have, you know?

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  They have gills and they're swimming.

• 1:08:49Speaker 08

  Yeah, there's some sort of, yeah, exactly.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  Only in Hollywood.

• 1:08:52Speaker 08

  Alien intelligence, uh, you know, underwater. Yeah. But Hollywood, as you know, they can get, there was actually a position, uh, called the official CIA liaison to Hollywood. And it was Chase Brandon was the guy's name. And he was literally, it was his job to like ensure that.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  What a great job.

• 1:09:08Speaker 08

  Why not? Yeah. I guess it's, you know, it's to ensure, you know, that things were done right and portrayed right. And I think he even advised on, if you remember Robert De Niro's character in Meet the Parents, he was like the CIA agent. That was, you know, Chase Brandon doing the advising. Chase Brandon wrote a book about UFOs and it's called Cryptos Conundrum. And he, he starts the book off with this Francis Bacon quote, and he says that, uh, you know, uh, some truths are so strange that they have to be hidden in fiction. And so he says, read between the lines in this book and you'll understand the, the truth. And it's about this sort of elite majestic committee that came together to sort of guard these primordial secrets around how the world worked. Fascinating.

• 1:09:52Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  Committees come and go and people die and people get old. If you had a committee from the 50s and 40s fulling this thing, it would die. It would not have a life of its own.

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:10:36Speaker 02

  Forever.

• 1:10:37Speaker 08

  Yeah, that might be true. Yeah. Harald Malmgren, before he passed, he mentioned that sort of committee and he mentioned him being on their radar and him maybe possibly having, having worked with them.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  There are so many committees and so many presidential appointments of boards and commissions that, I mean, there's 15,000 of them.

• 1:10:58Speaker 08

  Did you ever get the sense that the politics that feel surface level, there's something deeper going on, kind of undergirding the decision-making going on internationally? Like, there's this sense, I think, that people sometimes have that the civilian elected leaders are operating sometimes within padded walls or sort of, you know, confines. Did you ever get that sense or did you feel like they had full latitude to, you know, kind of do what they want? Obviously, with, within the confines of bureaucratic inertia that they faced, but I mean more metaphysically.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  No, it's within the confines of politics.

• 1:11:36Speaker 08

  Sure.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Cause every single one of them wants the job, wants to be reelected. And so they only operate, and I gotta tell you, this is absolute truth, in the Congress, Senate, House, they want their job. And their wives are telling them at home, don't screw this up, Henry. We're not going back to Oklahoma. And I think these are political things. If it looks like it's going to be controversial, they'll shy away from it every time.

• 1:12:04Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  The UFO is a different thing.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  There's so much happening outside, they may see this is a great issue to leap on and I never have to take a position.

• 1:12:15Speaker 08

  You think it's a distraction or?

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:12:18Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  Sure. Congressman says, I want on that committee. We're going to investigate this. I'm going to be headlines every day.

• 1:12:24Speaker 08

  Yeah, right.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  We get all these cool guys to talk to us.

• 1:12:28Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  Out there under oath.

• 1:12:30Speaker 08

  Do you, was there anything in the world of like exotic propulsion or gravity manipulation? You ever heard about?

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  Gravity or manipulation, no. Propulsion, yeah, always.

• 1:12:41Speaker 08

  Exotic propulsion.

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  You have an issue with naval submarines. Propulsion is the highest issue, I think. Silence. They need to be quiet. And they go through all kinds of things to keep them quiet, like specially designed propellers, all kinds of machinery that is, that can't rattle and shake. Now they are ejecting certain things on the exterior of the hull as it moves to keep it quiet going through the water. I mean, propulsion was always on the front table of the, of the naval reactor program.

• 1:13:24Speaker 08

  Fascinating. Yeah, it's just a.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  But if I told you.

• 1:13:27Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  There is an airplane powered by nuclear power, sitting in a hangar in Idaho Falls. Would you believe me?

• 1:13:38Speaker 08

  I might. I'd be open to it.

• 1:13:41Speaker 02

  What if I just made that up?

• 1:13:43Speaker 08

  It's, yeah, I don't know. Do you think that that's possible?

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  It is. It's true.

• 1:13:49Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  It's never flown.

• 1:13:50Speaker 08

  Never flown.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  Somebody figured out it might crash.

• 1:13:54Speaker 08

  Whoa.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  Spread nuclear material all over the place.

• 1:13:56Speaker 08

  That's wild. So it's just sitting there?

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:13:59Speaker 08

  It's just this sort of like.

• 1:14:00Speaker 02

  Sits in a hangar.

• 1:14:01Speaker 08

  I know there was Project Orion, like Curtis LeMay wanted to do nuclear propulsion. Freeman Dyson was working on this thing and it ended up, you know, JFK was very against it. So it ended up getting nixed, but I didn't know about this.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  Well, the government's done some crazy things. Howard Hughes built that plane, by the way.

• 1:14:17Speaker 08

  Wild.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  Just like the Gomor Explorer and the rest of them. But look at Eisenhower, went into Atoms for Peace. He was fracking oil in the 50s with nuclear weapons. So the oil would flow.

• 1:14:29Speaker 08

  That's insane.

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  Then somebody figured out, when they pulled the oil up, it was radioactive. They said, now what do we do? So the government is not beyond doing crazy things.

• 1:14:38Speaker 08

  Well, especially back then, it was like, we were in full cowboy mode, like the high altitude nuclear test, they would just burn holes in the Van Allen belt, you know? So first time, and there was like, I think there were even like calculations being done by the scientists involved saying, there is a, you know, sub one, but real percentage chance that this ends the world. And they were like, but we should still try that, you know, sort of, that was the mentality.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  Supposedly that's what Oppenheimer said before they let off the first test.

• 1:15:09Speaker 08

  I think that's right. At Trinity, I might even be conflating that.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, at Trinity, they said, you know, we don't know what's going to happen. Put on your glasses and keep your head down.

• 1:15:18Speaker 08

  Totally. Do you think that, you know, something happened maybe at Roswell? You know, I was obviously the site of the 509th Atomic Bomber Squadron led by Curtis LeMay. It was the site of the, all of our tactical nukes at the time. Do you think that maybe a UFO came down then?

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:15:34Speaker 08

  Okay. Fair enough. So what do you think? Do you think that the UFO issue just completely sputters out because there's nothing to it? Or do you think there, there might be something to it or?

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Well, one of you guys is going to have to dig up some new evidence.

• 1:15:46Speaker 08

  I think there's a lot of evidence. I really do.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Okay, I want to see some material.

• 1:15:51Speaker 08

  You can drive to Stanford now and we'll show you material.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  I'm going to see something in Stanford?

• 1:15:55Speaker 08

  Yeah. You'd see material, you'd see the material I just discussed.

• 1:15:58Speaker 02

  Give me his name again.

• 1:15:59Speaker 08

  Gary Nolan.

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  Gary Nolan.

• 1:16:01Speaker 08

  Tenured, tenured professor.

• 1:16:02Speaker 02

  What's his age?

• 1:16:02Speaker 08

  Very well respected. I don't know. He's probably in his 40s.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  Does he work on the SLAC, the Linear Accelerator down there?

• 1:16:12Speaker 08

  I don't know. I don't think so. No. He has a microbiology lab, but he's a total polymath. He's very smart and he's.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  The guy I liked was the guy that entered into the, the COVID sickness and said the masks were all BS and he's now running the National Foundation.

• 1:16:27Speaker 08

  Jay Bhattacharya.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  That guy's smart.

• 1:16:30Speaker 08

  He's great. Yeah.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  They got some good people down there.

• 1:16:32Speaker 08

  For sure.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  So I wouldn't question this guy, but if he hasn't seen a UFO or seen one of the little people or visited the inside.

• 1:16:39Speaker 08

  He had, he has seen some little people.

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  He's seen them.

• 1:16:42Speaker 08

  Yeah, and he's seen a craft too. Yeah.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:16:45Speaker 08

  We're in, we're in a brave new world.

• 1:16:48Speaker 02

  This is not unbelievable from Stanford.

• 1:16:50Speaker 08

  No, it's, it's, you'd be surprised. You have a foundation at Harvard, you have a foundation at Stanford dedicated to finding extraterrestrial life. Not only that, but the, the kind of leaders of both foundations are, you know, tenured professors who basically are bought in to the idea that UFOs are showing up.

• 1:17:10Speaker 02

  So they smell government money. That's what it's about.

• 1:17:13Speaker 08

  That might be your take. I don't know.

• 1:17:14Speaker 02

  That's my take.

• 1:17:15Speaker 08

  I think they're a little more earnest than that.

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  Well, look.

• 1:17:17Speaker 08

  Or at least Gary is.

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  They got, they got Musk wanting to go to Mars. Okay, so they can reach that far and they've got a new telescope that's going to see everything out there. How are they going to establish all this? What are they, how, what are they going to get? One information and how are they going to get it?

• 1:17:35Speaker 08

  Well, now there's actually an astronomer who's gone through the Palomar Observatory plates.

• 1:17:41Speaker 02

  That's right outside LA.

• 1:17:43Speaker 08

  Exactly. And it was the most prominent observatory in use in the 40s and 50s. And she has found a bunch of transients that essentially look like UFOs. They look like flat mirror-like objects.

• 1:17:55Speaker 17

  Things that are extremely flat and extremely reflective.

• 1:17:59Speaker 08

  Wow.

• 1:17:59Speaker 17

  Like mirrors. And that makes it more fun.

• 1:18:02Speaker 08

  Like mirrors?

• 1:18:03Speaker 17

  Mirrors, glass.

• 1:18:04Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:18:05Speaker 17

  Not something, not, not a stone, not a rock.

• 1:18:08Speaker 08

  Right.

• 1:18:08Speaker 17

  Not ice.

• 1:18:09Speaker 08

  And this is.

• 1:18:09Speaker 17

  Not round, flat.

• 1:18:11Speaker 08

  This is from the Palomar Observatory before we had satellites in space.

• 1:18:15Speaker 17

  Yes.

• 1:18:16Speaker 08

  So that's fascinating. And what's really interesting, so she's Stockholm University, very, you know, reputable astrophysicist. And they look like UFOs showing up. And then there's a, actually a PhD at Vanderbilt who did a follow-up study and he correlates these transients with showing up around nuclear detonations. So they're more likely, 70% more likely to show up 24 hours before or after a nuclear detonation in the 50s. It's really fascinating.

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  So that is fascinating.

• 1:18:45Speaker 08

  Yeah. So I do think there's a connection there.

• 1:18:48Speaker 02

  So here's what I say to you, Jesse.

• 1:18:49Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  Stay on this.

• 1:18:51Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  And get the answer. I would love to hear the answer.

• 1:18:54Speaker 08

  I will.

• 1:18:55Speaker 02

  And it's your, it's your area and you're on top of it and I don't know anything about it and, but I'm fascinated. This is the kind of stuff I'd love to know about.

• 1:19:03Speaker 08

  Well, I appreciate the encouragement and all.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  I'm a citizen. Citizens should know about this.

• 1:19:07Speaker 08

  Yeah. Is there, is there anything? Yeah, I'm with you. I think it's really important. Is there anything outside of UFOs where you think maybe some, something fundamental about science, like parapsychology might be an example, like sort of mind-matter connection stuff? Did you ever bump into any of that?

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:19:25Speaker 08

  And, yeah.

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  I, I do believe sincerely that there are people that can see the future.

• 1:19:31Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 02

  I have personally seen that.

• 1:19:34Speaker 08

  And it's been declassified. There's a CIA remote viewing program.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  This is not about CIA. I don't know about their program. I just know that there are people that my wife and I have met in real life that can predict.

• 1:19:46Speaker 08

  Really?

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  The future.

• 1:19:47Speaker 08

  That's amazing.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is amazing.

• 1:19:49Speaker 08

  Yeah. No, I, I agree. I think there are modalities of knowing that we just don't understand right now. And I know famously Reagan, you know, and Nancy got a lot of flack for having an astrologer, but I think.

• 1:20:01Speaker 02

  That was her, not him.

• 1:20:02Speaker 08

  Okay, that was more her. Got it. But I, you know, I think ultimately, you know, I don't know. I don't think it's, it's so, it's so cut and dry, how, how we, how we come to know things. And I think human intuition is much trippier than, than we realize.

• 1:20:16Speaker 02

  Sure, I can, my wife and I communicate, we'll be thinking of the same thing at the same time.

• 1:20:20Speaker 08

  There you go.

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  I mean, I'll be all saying, couldn't we have so and so for dinner? And she says, we're going to have so and so for dinner.

• 1:20:26Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:20:26Speaker 02

  I mean, that's, that's coincidence maybe, but.

• 1:20:29Speaker 08

  Do you think that we'll get any sort of disclosure from Trump? Any sort of, you know, grand unveiling of truths here?

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  I, I hesitate to predict anything from Trump.

• 1:20:40Speaker 08

  What's your, do you think he's sort of shooting from the hip or what's your?

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:20:44Speaker 08

  How do you think he operates?

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  I think he's gonna, believe it or not, I don't, your listeners aren't all going to agree, but I, I think he's going to go down as a historic president.

• 1:20:51Speaker 08

  How so?

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  You may not like the personality of the individual, but what he's doing is incredible.

• 1:21:00Speaker 08

  Well, I think he's, he's taking the kind of negotiating business mind and he's sort of porting it into, you know, the White House. And I think at times it feels a little callous and art of the deal, you know, he's sort of whipping people around or something. But I think simultaneously, there are people who don't realize there's a method to the madness and that there is some real strategy going into.

• 1:21:23Speaker 02

  They're, they're gonna be writing about his presidency for years.

• 1:21:26Speaker 08

  You think that?

• 1:21:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:27Speaker 08

  Simultaneously, though, some of the same things we were talking about earlier, that like punting hard problems to future generations. I don't think that's gotten better.

• 1:21:36Speaker 02

  It's been going on for years.

• 1:21:37Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  Pentagon makes an absolute rule out of that. All the, all of the government programs have what they call, quote, "out years." They, they will never sit down with you and define the end of the government program. In fact, name one government program that has gone out of business because it has accomplished what it was supposed to do.

• 1:22:00Speaker 08

  That's no, nothing. You know, and I'll, I'll, I'll do you one better. And, you know, the inverse example of that of, I'll name you 100 programs that haven't worked and are this sort of bridge to nowhere.

• 1:22:12Speaker 02

  We're still going.

• 1:22:13Speaker 08

  Cargo cult that, you know, gets funded every year. It's crazy.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  That's right. We're still doing it. We're still giving Stanford's Leonard Accelerator money every year and it's so out of date, you can't believe it.

• 1:22:22Speaker 08

  Do you think we ever made, you know, there's this rumor that this is like Pons and Fleishman, that we had this sort of breakthrough in cold fusion possibly in the, in the 90s or 2000s?

• 1:22:32Speaker 02

  I think the jury's out on that. There's some really smart minds working on that problem. And there may be a total breakthrough. I, I, I hope there is frankly.

• 1:22:41Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  Because I think all forms of energy are necessary. Well, you're talking from the lowest part of our A's, solar arrays to energy efficiency programs is all necessary.

• 1:22:57Speaker 08

  When you say the jury's still out, did you see any evidence that maybe we've created some sort of preliminary breakthrough at some point or?

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  Well, look at the things in the past, like polio years. It was a plague on humanity. Boom. One day, Dr. Sock solves it.

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  Nobody knew how, and then he figured it out. I mean, I think all that's possible.

• 1:23:18Speaker 08

  Interesting. Yeah. I, I believe so too, and I, I hope so sincerely. Did, did you ever face, you know, you, you mentioned having to clean up a lot of elements of the DOE and how it was kind of disorganized?

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:23:31Speaker 08

  Sort of the crown jewels of American defense doesn't really exist with the DOD. It really existed with the, the DOE. Did you ever feel like you had to fend off all sorts of foreign adversaries and spies and people with ulterior motives when it came to?

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  Yes. We had a lot of espionage in the energy department. You remember the, no, you're, I don't think you'll remember him. There was a spy called Wen Ho Lee, who was operating in the energy department in Livermore and Los Alamos. We knew who he was, but he was definitely a Chinese spy. And there were others, but Wen Ho Lee was the famous case that finally broke. And I called my friend Ed Meese, who was Attorney General at the time, still a very close friend. And we worked together on that and several other espionage cases. There's no doubt that our government is infiltrated by foreign countries on many, many levels, whether it is through the diplomatic corps or whether it is outside

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  of that. And we even have some of our own citizens participating in that. We haven't caught them all, I'm sure.

• 1:24:36Speaker 08

  Well, a good example is a later Secretary of Energy. I'm sure you're familiar with Bill, Bill Richardson, who, you know, was also governor of New Mexico. And it seems like, you know, there was this kind of siphoning off of, you know, American nuclear trade secrets with this sort of promise software. Are you familiar with this? That Robert Maxwell, you know, who obviously is intimately connected with Epstein, sold to our national labs and it seemed like, you know, they were just giving away our.

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  I think Richardson was under.

• 1:25:07Speaker 08

  Clinton.

• 1:25:08Speaker 02

  Clinton.

• 1:25:12Speaker 02

  That transfer of important technology from the energy department took place. More important, the transfer of technology from the Commerce Department under Clinton and from the Defense Department. You'll notice every single Chinese fighter looks like an American fighter, F-15.

• 1:25:32Speaker 02

  We took all the limits off technology transfer and it flowed. And they got money for it. They set up fundraising groups. It goes on and on and on. There, there has been a lot of corruption in our political system and there's, still is today. You can't say that we are clean, that we've solved all the problems. The only thing we can do is stay ahead of the other people in our research and development. And that'll probably save us. That's why this AI thing is so interesting.

• 1:26:07Speaker 08

  Yeah. Now, the Department of Energy has this Genesis project, which is sort of, I think, a way to collate and collect all of the information from all of the national labs and run it through AI and then see what comes out the other end. Are you familiar with this?

• 1:26:21Speaker 02

  I'm not, but it doesn't surprise me.

• 1:26:23Speaker 08

  You're rolling your eyes. What, uh, what are your thoughts there?

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  It's typical of a big dollar program that probably will go nowhere.

• 1:26:31Speaker 08

  Hmm. Hmm. Was there anything that you feel like wasn't necessarily a big dollar program that was under invested in that you feel like we should be investing more in today when it comes to frontier science?

• 1:26:44Speaker 02

  I believe two things hit me. They're both in the defense area. I think the naval submarine program was underfunded. I think it's probably the most devastating program we have today and weapon we have. They're totally undetectable. They can travel anywhere in the world. They can launch missiles everywhere. I, it's unclassified now, but our missiles have 12 warheads in them. All can be independently targeted. And, and I've been in Pantex. I've been down in the pits. When you said the guys are circling above, it is open. You can't see out. They've got the weapons on them. Lazy Susan is going around. Everybody's putting their parts together.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  Fascinating. He would love it. He'd love seeing it. Most of my time is fought against protesters trying to wipe out the white train or go to the nuclear site in, in Nevada. We are arresting people. They're having demonstrations. I think the Navy submarine program is underfunded. I think the nuclear weapon program is underfunded. People are afraid of it. They have, for some reason, the public equates a nuclear reactor, a commercial reactor with a nuclear weapon. It's a terrible mistake. There was a movie in the 50s called The China Syndrome, where

• 1:28:12Speaker 02

  a reactor melted and went through the earth and was, ended up in China. You know, had, it, it scared everybody. And then we had architects design nuclear plants with these futuristic cones, which were cooling stations. Didn't have to be there. French don't use that. It gave a kind of a negative feeling for the reactors. So it all led to the ending of nuclear testing, which was taking place in Nevada. Now the testing is all done on computers. It's not enough. The weapons contain an item called tritium that's put in in Pinellas

• 1:28:52Speaker 02

  down in Florida. Tritium degrades. So we need to check all the time. Is the stockpile active? Is it good? And we need to test. So I would like to see that program plus up.

• 1:29:08Speaker 08

  It also feels like a lot of our science has moved from public sector to private sector. And so there are companies like, are you familiar with SAIC out here by any chance? Science Applications International Corporation?

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  I know the name. I've read about it. What are they doing?

• 1:29:23Speaker 08

  They were, they were actually the largest contractor, one of the largest contractors for the Strategic Defense Initiative. And.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  That's where I've heard it.

• 1:29:30Speaker 08

  Yeah. And they were doing really advanced science. They were actually doing, working on remote viewing stuff that they inherited from the CIA. This is all public information. And then, yeah, Bobby Randman was on the board there and they were sort of, you know, seemed to possibly be involved with UFO crash retrieval and recovery stuff too. So, yeah.

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  I'm gonna ask Bobby. I gotta know.

• 1:29:53Speaker 08

  We gotta talk to Bobby.

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  He is so cool. You know, in the, in the Navy hierarchy, he went to Annapolis and all the admirals were here and Bobby's here.

• 1:30:03Speaker 08

  Do you think he would ever go on record and, and talk about UFOs?

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  With Bobby? He'd talk and he's so political, you, he, you wouldn't learn a thing.

• 1:30:13Speaker 08

  He actually, a buddy of mine interviewed him and he, he was very, kind of, you know, held his arms up and he was very sort of defensive, but he was, he was, he was very collegial as well.

• 1:30:24Speaker 15

  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it just seems like you're suggesting here that you're aware of retrieved UFOs being studied by the military.

• 1:30:30Speaker 11

  The answer was no, I would not, we're not, absolutely we're not retrieved UFOs. I have high confidence.

• 1:30:37Speaker 02

  Oh, he's a wonderful man. You don't get four stars in the Navy by not being a politician.

• 1:30:41Speaker 08

  Yeah, but he did, he, there is a, there's another phone call with him where he fully just starts talking about UFOs and how it might come out at some point.

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  Maybe he wants a little press. I don't know. He's not above it.

• 1:30:54Speaker 08

  Well, that cuts against what you just said about him. So I don't know, but um, yeah, it's a, it's an interesting topic because there's so much circumstantial evidence, so much, so beyond the threshold that, you know, of thinking there might not be a there, there, there's clearly there's something there and then you run into a lot of dead ends as well, you know? And it's just, uh, it's very tricky, but I think largely the next few months and years, more and more is going to come out. And so I think it, you know, a lot of people are going to be kind of on the right side of history and vindicated who were kind of, you know, people like David Grusch, who I think were treated badly in the past. Do you think, because I, I wonder if the high energy physics closed group, I wonder if they knew a thing or two, because it feels like that's where you would,

• 1:31:39Speaker 08

  there, that's where you'd start to break reality with high voltage experimentation, you know, nuclear blasts, that sort of thing.

• 1:31:46Speaker 02

  I, I'd say it's not beyond them, but uh, what do you get out of it? The building block of, of the world of humanity, they want to get to the lowest common denominator of a building block.

• 1:31:57Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  Of a person, of a thing, of a microphone. That's what they're looking for.

• 1:32:02Speaker 08

  Totally. And there, there are rumors at the Large Hadron Collider at CERN or at Cosmotron at Brookhaven National Labs, that UFOs seem to show up around, you know, places where we're smashing together basically the building blocks of reality itself. And that would, it would kind of make sense if we were living in some sort of.

• 1:32:20Speaker 02

  Well, the big stuff is happening in CERN in Switzerland.

• 1:32:23Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:32:24Speaker 02

  That's the best uh, cyclotron now and it's, it is the world's finest and best and everything else.

• 1:32:30Speaker 08

  It is. And it would, it would make sense if you were, you know, beings, you know, kind of guarding the sort of simulation, you would show up where we're smashing together the, the building blocks of reality, you know?

• 1:32:42Speaker 02

  It, it is, um, it's a special field and there, there's special guys in it, but they're, they just have one issue.

• 1:32:49Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they just want to build bigger and bigger.

• 1:32:52Speaker 00

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• 1:33:22Speaker 08

  You know, accelerators and see, see what comes, comes out. So where do you think we go from here? Do you think we, it seems like Trump has now put Stephen Miller on the topic of UFOs. Marco Rubio, our Secretary of State, basically admits that, you know, somebody said, what's the conspiracy you believe in most? He goes, there are things flying with impunity around our nuclear sites.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  I don't know who it is. I don't know what it is, but there are things flying over our military installation and they're not ours and we should look into this, be serious about it.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  You know, I would, I would believe that. I would go along with that. But I, I can't go the next step. What is it? I have no idea.

• 1:33:58Speaker 08

  So you do think there are things flying around our airspace that we?

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  Well, I've seen pictures of them on television and I've seen films uh, that have been uh, on the, on the publications and pictures in the paper. And.

• 1:34:13Speaker 08

  Did you hear about any of this stuff when you were in power?

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  No, no. Well, we watched movies, you know? The Spielberg movies were all out.

• 1:34:24Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:34:25Speaker 08

  But nothing, nothing more officially, nothing came out? Okay.

• 1:34:29Speaker 02

  I'll say it again. There's nothing official rumors, people always kid about it, but.

• 1:34:34Speaker 08

  Cause I do think, I think things will come out, you know, near term. And so I'm just, I just hope that.

• 1:34:39Speaker 02

  Well, I hope you break it first. I really do.

• 1:34:41Speaker 08

  I hope so too.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  I'll keep watching and see if we can get you to come out when, like have a guest here that came from, you know, Uranus or somewhere.

• 1:34:49Speaker 08

  Yeah, we'll try to figure it out. You know, I, I gotta choose a different planet, but

• 1:34:55Speaker 08

  I'm a.

• 1:34:55Speaker 02

  Oh, you picked that up?

• 1:34:57Speaker 08

  Yeah. So do you, so, so you think we'll sort of never know? You think it'll be this like, okay, there are things around our, our sensitive sites, but we'll never know exactly what.

• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  Well, I don't, I don't think I will ever know. I'm 87.

• 1:35:11Speaker 02

  And um, chances are good that it won't happen in the five years. But I don't know where it's all going. I really don't.

• 1:35:18Speaker 08

  Yeah. Would you ever?

• 1:35:21Speaker 08

  I don't know. Talk to Congress in a closed setting with somebody like a David Grusch and compare notes or?

• 1:35:28Speaker 02

  Sure. I offered to do that.

• 1:35:29Speaker 08

  You offered to do that?

• 1:35:30Speaker 02

  I've been back several times in uh, restricted sessions.

• 1:35:34Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 1:35:34Speaker 02

  On security issues with the energy department on, especially on Rocky Flats, Colorado. That was, that's been a big problem.

• 1:35:42Speaker 08

  Okay. Well, that's cool that you're down to do that. You're down to go.

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  I would do it.

• 1:35:46Speaker 08

  So the, the thing that Grusch talks about is he talks about the Atomic Energy Act of 1954. And there being this sort of restricted data where if you retrieve anything that has alpha, beta, gamma radiation, any radiation coming off of it, it's immediately sort of born secret.

• 1:36:04Speaker 04

  Do you actually read the Atomic Energy Act? If something is not a nuke, but it has radiological energy coming off it, you know, alpha, beta decay, whatever.

• 1:36:13Speaker 08

  Same secrecy.

• 1:36:14Speaker 04

  Same secrecy.

• 1:36:15Speaker 08

  And so that's what he's, he says that the UFO issue is sort of shoehorned into that. And so he says that Oppenheimer, people like Robert Sarbacher, Vannevar Bush, set up these sort of secrecy protocols to, you know, go under the Department of Energy. And so I don't know if you have anything to say about that.

• 1:36:33Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, the Atomic Energy Commission wasn't under the Department of Energy till in 76, before it was a standalone. It was basically created by um,

• 1:36:46Speaker 02

  the Navy submarine guy, Rickover. Rickover is the father of nuclear energy and especially in the Navy. He was a four star admiral when he wanted to testify and then he could jump over to the Atomic Energy Commission when he wanted to be a civilian. It was one of the great setups and I don't think we'd be anywhere without him. And I doubt that Oppenheimer or any of these people had any influence dealing with him. He was a absolute one man band. And he believed in all this stuff getting out. So I'd say that's nonsense, but.

• 1:37:19Speaker 08

  He believed in what getting out and?

• 1:37:22Speaker 02

  He had, he had information on nuclear power and the things the Atomic Energy Commission were doing uh, public the whole time. He was very much in front of Congress, testifying all the time on that. There's several books on Rickover that are worth reading. One of them's called Underway My Way.

• 1:37:39Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:37:40Speaker 02

  It's a good book.

• 1:37:40Speaker 08

  Yeah, there's Blind Man's Bluff too.

• 1:37:43Speaker 02

  Well, that's a little different. Blind Man's Bluff is uh, the Sosus buoys that were uncovered with the Navy.

• 1:37:49Speaker 08

  Yep. And I don't know if you've ever read The Silent War, John Pena Craven?

• 1:37:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:37:53Speaker 08

  So there, there he talks about John Pena Craven, you know, and these guys are like the godfathers of the, the Navy, uh, recovering exotic technology on the seafloor. And so another case where you're like, what's going on here?

• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  So we're going to find all the UFOs come out of Atlantis.

• 1:38:10Speaker 08

  Maybe.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  Which they now say is up in the Red Sea. The naval um, has a consultant named Bob Ballard at the Institute in Connecticut. Bob is one of the great guys and he's looking for Atlantis out in the Mediterranean. And uh, he's got numerous books and he's gotten all kinds of prizes.

• 1:38:30Speaker 08

  That's so cool. Bob Ball, what's Bob Ballard's background?

• 1:38:35Speaker 02

  He's been running the uh, Oceanographic Institute in Connecticut for the Navy. Um, and uh, we're doing huge government contracts for

• 1:38:48Speaker 02

  exploration, deep sea submersibles. Uh, he's almost high security staff. I mean, he, he'll be at the bottom of all the deep submersible uh, vessels that have been built. And he's the one that found the Titanic and he found a carrier out in the Pacific. What's the one? Lexington sunk off uh, he's found it all.

• 1:39:14Speaker 08

  That's amazing.

• 1:39:15Speaker 02

  And he's an interesting guy.

• 1:39:16Speaker 08

  It could be, there's a hypothesis. There's actually a guy named Hal Putoff. Uh, I don't know if you're familiar with him. But he, he says that we have 10 to 40 crafts in our possession. He also says he worked with George W. Bush and Stephen Hadley, his national security advisor on, you know, whether we should make disclosures. And um, Hal Putoff has a hypothesis called the ultra terrestrial hypothesis, which is that um, the beings, the non-human intelligence are a holdover from a civilization that existed before the ice age. And they are more advanced than us, but they've been coexisting with us on earth for many years. And so then they could be under our oceans, but also be able to, you know, travel into deep space.

• 1:39:58Speaker 08

  So it's very interesting. And he's, he's a long time NSA CIA guy who's, you know, held very, very high clearances. And he says this publicly on Joe Rogan, he talked about George W. Bush contemplating disclosure. He talks, he literally says, we have between 10 and 40 crafts in our possession right now of non-human origin.

• 1:40:16Speaker 02

  So we're looking in the wrong place. We're all looking up. We should be looking down.

• 1:40:20Speaker 08

  Hmm.

• 1:40:21Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:40:21Speaker 08

  Hmm.

• 1:40:22Speaker 02

  Into the ocean. You've quoted an awful lot of CIA guys today.

• 1:40:26Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 1:40:27Speaker 02

  And uh, I would not expect that to be where the information is coming from. I've known a lot of spooks. The energy department is just riddled with spooks.

• 1:40:37Speaker 08

  Uh huh.

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  And uh, you know, the, if you look at the energy attaches, embassies around the world, usually they're CIA guys. I don't find them on the scientific level. They're full of. Schemes and theories and they're seeing shadows behind every door.

• 1:40:56Speaker 08

  I think the reason it might fall under the purview of the CIA, there's another CIA guy named Jim Semivan, who's, you know, I think basically ran the whole northern hemisphere for the CIA. And he's super into UFOs. And I think the reason it's sort of maybe falls under their, their purview is because it's, it's not foreign intelligence, but it's super foreign intelligence. And so it's like, they have the kind of analysis and sense-making, you know, mandate that would make sense here. You're, you're kind of systematically dealing with things you don't understand, intelligence you don't understand. And so that's why they might be the frontier of defense. There's also a guy who was rumored to, to run the whole legacy crash retrieval program named Glenn Gaffney. And he was the CIA's Director of Science and Technology.

• 1:41:40Speaker 18

  Well, I would love to talk to the head of the crash retrieval program during that era, but he refused to talk to us.

• 1:41:46Speaker 08

  And that was, that was Glenn Gaffney?

• 1:41:48Speaker 18

  Yeah.

• 1:41:48Speaker 08

  Okay. There seems to be some sort of connection between that and maybe DOE oversight. That's what, in this, in this movie, Age of Disclosure, you have, again, people who are high up as Director of National Intelligence, saying basically this was a joint effort between the direct, you know, the Department of Energy and the CIA's, you know, Director of Science and Technology.

• 1:42:09Speaker 02

  Bill Casey was President Reagan's CIA Director and he, he and I sat next to each other at the cabinet table for five years and passed notes back and forth. And we played golf every Wednesday afternoon if we weren't busy.

• 1:42:25Speaker 02

  We discussed all this stuff. We used to build the satellites for the CIA and the national laboratories. This subject never came up. And if it was on Bill's agenda, he would have talked to me about it.

• 1:42:37Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:42:38Speaker 02

  So anytime in the eighties, I would say this was a non-starter.

• 1:42:44Speaker 08

  Interesting. Well, I appreciate your candid take, John. And, uh, you know, if at, if at any point you'd want to clear the air with, with Brent, I know he'd be excited to speak with you. And I don't think he means you any harm. I think he really, I think he really likes you and complimentary. Yeah. So I think, I think he just felt compelled to, to talk about it.

• 1:43:03Speaker 02

  He needs to readjust his principles and figure out where he's going in life.

• 1:43:11Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 1:43:13Speaker 08

  Fair enough. Well, John, this has been a pleasure. I really appreciate it. It's a total honor. You know, it's not normal for me to be able to speak to somebody of your caliber and your track record. And, uh, you know, I, I think you have a lot of really great takes on, on politics. And so hopefully, you know, the people in, in charge now take note. And I also hope we're able to make progress on, on the issue of UFOs. Cause it's just been, uh, you know, a real slog to get to where we are now. But I do think we've made a lot of progress in the last 10 years.

• 1:43:42Speaker 02

  I'm going to be watching and I, I'd like you to make some progress also. Before we close, let me give you a couple of little keepsakes. These are matches off Air Force One from President Reagan.

• 1:43:53Speaker 08

  Wow.

• 1:43:54Speaker 02

  I don't think they're worth a lot. If you can light your cigarettes with them.

• 1:43:57Speaker 08

  But he, did he own these?

• 1:44:00Speaker 02

  They came off Air Force One.

• 1:44:01Speaker 08

  Came off Air Force One. This is so cool.

• 1:44:03Speaker 02

  Here is a Reagan golf ball. And I have to tell you very honestly, Reagan played golf once a year. He wasn't a great golfer. New Year's Day, he played always, usually in Palm Springs with the Annaburks. And you can have that, you can sell that. The Japanese are, uh, love that thing. They'll buy it in two seconds.

• 1:44:20Speaker 08

  I'm not selling this, man. I'm keeping this and I really appreciate it. This means a lot. It's very cool. Especially given the fact that he played so little golf. This is a rare keepsake.

• 1:44:29Speaker 02

  He had them. Yeah. So Jesse, thank you for, um, putting up with us here and we've enjoyed it. And, uh, you're a very good young man interviewing. So, um, I wish you all the luck in the world.

• 1:44:42Speaker 08

  Well, John, I appreciate this and I, yeah, this was an honor and a lot of fun. And, uh, yeah, I'm excited to, to see how, how people respond and, uh, we'll see what happens. We live in a crazy world.

• 1:44:53Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. Yes, we are. I'm waiting for the AI to bring a microscope on all this.

• 1:44:58Speaker 08

  Yeah. Well, yeah, maybe they're the, maybe that's the aliens, the, the AI.

• 1:45:02Speaker 02

  Thanks again and good luck to you.

• 1:45:04Speaker 08

  Thank you. Likewise.

• 1:45:13Speaker 08

  Do you think there's any chance he was hazing you, but not gratuitously randomly hazing you? But he wanted to see if you would talk because there was some sort of initiation process, like a secret society or something like that?

• 1:45:30Speaker 03

  See, this is a great theory and it's something I honestly hadn't thought of because of my personal relationship with him. I just, I, I assumed that he was unburdening himself. I assumed that being the man he was, he would not burden his wife and daughters with this truth. But I could see that physically it was a huge burden on him. He had physically looked very haggard. So I thought in retrospect, I didn't make any sense when he was telling me, but in retrospect, I thought, oh, I have compassion for him because he was telling me things that he just needed to share with somebody. But Bryce has a theory that's very much in line with what you just said, which is the way things seem to work, right? As we've kind of learned more and more on sound light and frequency,

• 1:46:12Speaker 03

  is there is all of this subtle nuance to things, how information is exchanged and trial balloons and initiations and all sorts of stuff. So it's quite possible that I was being given a test of some degree to see what I would do with this information. And that that may lead me down a path in the future. You've talked to a lot of people. Have you heard other stories of people being hazed? Like, or being given something that becomes an initiation or something along those lines?

• 1:46:46Speaker 08

  I actually interviewed, um, the head of intel and counter intel for the DOE from 2006 to 2009, a guy named Rolf Moat Larson. And he wrote this book that just feels so like intel coded. You know, it's, um, it's called, um, A State of Mind, Faith in the CIA. He also mentioned, uh, you know, being hazed, uh, by the DOE, like there being like a hazing ritual when he joined the DOE around Roswell. And it's, it's really interesting. So it's like, um, he was brought in by the Deputy Director of the DOE. So like the number two at the DOE is involved in this like hazing ritual around Roswell.

• 1:47:28Speaker 18

  We took a director level. So Deputy Director, Secretary of Energy was involved and several other bigwigs. And me as the Director of Intelligence, and we take a newbie. The newbie would be a political appointee, very high level, maybe, you know, Deputy Secretary or Assistant Secretary or some level, who had just signed up and gotten their clearances and were taking their jobs. And we bring them down to the bowels of the Department of Energy where some of the most secretive things are guarded and you know where those are. Kind of everybody whispers when they come by. And you pull them into this back room like Maxwell Smart and the old, old TV shows. And the hazing ritual is to explain to them that we really did have aliens.

• 1:48:09Speaker 18

  We covered aliens. One was injured, one was not. And we got the alien tech, space technology of, through, through Roswell, you know, et cetera. And it was a real thing. And the briefing is so good. It's got all the real DOE, what they call tickets, you know, we call secret access program, SAPs they're called, and things on this to make it seem as real as possible. And there's, you know, obviously there's corpses on tables and stuff to make this all look.

• 1:48:35Speaker 08

  At what point do you tell them it's a joke?

• 1:48:37Speaker 18

  Well, if somebody cracks up and it, it, it, somebody can't keep it in any longer. We betray our own.

• 1:48:44Speaker 08

  And the Secretary of Energy.

• 1:48:45Speaker 18

  Not that good actor.

• 1:48:46Speaker 08

  The Secretary of Energy is literally in on this.

• 1:48:48Speaker 18

  It's a Deputy Secretary who's, who was, in my case, was in the room.

• 1:48:52Speaker 08

  Oh my God.

• 1:48:53Speaker 18

  Yeah. So we raise it to the, the highest level.

• 1:48:56Speaker 08

  And then the second really interesting thing is he had a download, he had a dream where he downloaded a bunch of numbers. And the first numbers or sort of one of the prominent number sequences is 747. And so I call him out on that. When he brings up, you know, the story of being hazed, I go, you know, when Roswell was, he goes, do you remember the date of Roswell that they gave you?

• 1:49:19Speaker 18

  Uh, no, not off the top of my head. I think I had it in the, I think I wrote it in the book.

• 1:49:24Speaker 08

  It is in the book and it's July 7th, 1947.

• 1:49:27Speaker 18

  Yeah.

• 1:49:28Speaker 08

  Do you think that connects with your download 747?

• 1:49:32Speaker 18

  Oh my goodness. Good. You know, that's the first time I've ever thought that, that it might.

• 1:49:38Speaker 08

  There's something going on with high energy physics, the Department of Energy. I think throwing people off actually with this sort of alien motif, but that representing an inroad to something way deeper and more intense.

• 1:49:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. Wow. I, I need to go back and listen to that interview.

• 1:50:01Speaker 03

  I mean, it all oddly adds up, but in a more kind of like three dimensional chess way. It doesn't all add up in a linear kind of rational way. And I think that what you just said, that intersection of like somehow quantum physics and weird esoteric agnostic, ancient philosophies, religion, spiritual

• 1:50:23Speaker 03

  technologies, whatever you want to call it. I think that's where the truth lies somewhere in, in there. And it, I think it probably does involve, I think consciousness is at the center of everything. Right? That, that's, that's the great unknown still, the great undiscovered country for us.

• 1:50:41Speaker 03

  But I also think that there is this convergence at consciousness of science and spirituality. And, and I think that's also why this, it's so hard to convey the full truth to anyone. And it also could be too, that, um, part of this hazing ritual or this initiation that people go through is to see how you will respond. Meaning not just what you will do or who you will tell, but what your consciousness will make of these ideas or experiences, right? And if they tend to go in, you know, in a more obvious way, then you're not of interest. But if they tend to go in a direction that allows you to start having other experiences, then you might be heading down the right path and you might be of value because your consciousness

• 1:51:26Speaker 03

  might be ready to receive certain information.

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