Pentagon Whistleblower UNLOADS on Alien Hybrid Breeding Programs (ft. Matthew Brown)

Our American Alchemist this week is Matthew Brown, former Pentagon policy advisor and UAP whistleblower. You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! Neurogum: For a limited time, you can get 20% off your first order at https://NeuroGum.com by using code JESSE Qualia: Curious about creatine? Go to https://qualialife.com/JESSE to get 50% off and save an extra 15% with the code JESSE Shopify: Start your business for just $1/month at https://shopify.com/jesse. Sponsored by Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and 10% of all U. S. e-commerce. Matthew Brown is a former Pentagon policy advisor who worked the counter-WMD mission under the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy. While performing routine file maintenance on classified systems, he discovered a briefing for the Immaculate Constellation program, an operational SAP governing global surveillance of UAP. He reported through proper channels, became a whistleblower to Congress, and is the primary source behind the public revelation of Immaculate Constellation. In this conversation, Brown describes what the program actually does, reveals a classified incident involving a triangle UFO over Russian naval vessels, discusses oral traditions of agreements between the U. S. and non-human intelligence, and explains why he believes our minds are no longer sovereign. Support Vanguard Enterprise, a nonprofit supporting UAP whistleblowers: https://vanguardenterprise.org Follow Matthew Brown on X: https://x.com/SunOfAbramelin -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.subst... Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ / @jessemichelsclips -------------------------- Instagram ➤ / jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ / itsjessemichels X ➤ / alchemyamerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ / @jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/america... Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:32 - Welcoming Matthew Brown 3:44 - Background and path to intelligence 7:31 - Role at the Pentagon 10:31 - Finding the file 12:28 - What Immaculate Constellation was 14:40 - Scale, funding and collection 16:46 - Where the program was based 18:43 - Reporting versus whistleblowing 20:21 - Most striking claims in the documents 22:31 - Triangle over Russian naval vessels 28:57 - Langley triangle and Dylan Borland 36:51 - Elizondo before Congress 41:01 - Combatant command reports and footage 46:34 - Sponsors (Neuro) 48:32 - Sharper footage than public releases 52:09 - Net assessment and strategic development 53:51 - Deciding to come forward 57:20 - Reporting up the chain 1:01:36 - Reverse engineering and crash retrieval 1:05:52 - Probes, sampling and intent 1:08:58 - Agreements and no-go areas 1:14:35 - An unwritten oral tradition 1:17:09 - Dan Sherman and Project Preserve Destiny 1:20:46 - Remote viewing and the space kids 1:27:04 - Territorial limits and no-go zones 1:28:43 - AARO's motto and black patches 1:30:39 - Do programs reach the president 1:31:04 - Sponsors (Qualia Life) 1:32:57 - Sponsors (Shopify) 1:34:05 - Presidential access and the NSC 1:36:43 - Private industry and family lines 1:40:23 - Bad actors and managed media 1:44:32 - The egg and monetizing technology 1:48:03 - Elite interests and nondisclosure 1:51:37 - Decoding his cryptic tweet 1:57:55 - The Navy's long involvement 2:01:27 - Dee, Kelley and New Atlantis 2:04:56 - Living inside a constructed reality 2:09:25 - Abramelin and occult worldviews 2:11:02 - Fastwalkers, Monroe and loosh theory 2:15:40 - Are elites pushing disclosure 2:19:53 - How should one live 2:24:00 - UFOs and nuclear sites 2:28:47 - Paperclip networks and postwar cabals 2:35:10 - Is science managed 2:39:59 - UFO drops and Epstein files 2:43:34 - Trafficking of psionic assets 2:47:12 - Why humans are needed 2:52:33 - Breeding stock and family lines 2:57:52 - Documentation versus intuition 3:00:33 - Energy and extended electrodynamics 3:05:27 - Bismuth and reverse engineering limits 3:08:45 - Reprisals and the break-in 3:11:53 - Whistleblower protection 3:14:38 - Regrets and where he is now 3:16:19 - Vanguard Enterprise 3:18:39 - Neuro-weapons and suppressed science 3:25:24 - Is the cover-up non-human 3:28:19 - Vanguard Enterprise donation link Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

  The suppression of knowledge, the suppression of science, the act of interference in scientific discovery. What you are allowed to think and believe is controlled for a real agenda.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Matthew Brown, it's an honor to have you. You have a core story where you bumped into a lot of real information around UFO tracking and reverse engineering programs that were ongoing and multi-generational. Can you say what your position was at the Pentagon?

• 0:56Speaker 01

  I was a policy advisor. I was working the counter WMD mission. Once I was read in, UAP just pop up. In this case, the Immaculate Constellation. You're building an operational picture of the world and having all domain awareness.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Do you think they would know vital secrets about UFOs?

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Running up against their own interests in not disclosing this because it will challenge their economic, social, and political power. Bait for shootdowns is, in fact, cover for using psionics as breeding stock for generations down the line, where you have some sort of super psychic child.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Triangles in particular seem to be highly advanced. They appeared above Russian naval vessels. Relatively close, like it wasn't way up in the sky. It was a football field above them. The Russians had foreknowledge that this triangle would appear there and that they were essentially there to meet with it. Seems like there was some reason for that meeting.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  So you think the meeting was intentional on both sides?

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Your report mentions "a formation of 12 metallic orbs skimming the ocean's surface at high speed before dispersing in multiple directions." That's pretty wild.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  "The White House possesses a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events." What does that mean?

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Our mind is no longer sovereign. It can be interfaced through remote means. Even our dreams are now subject to technological manipulation. This isn't even classified knowledge. Technical applications from MIT itself relating to dream implantation, including at a distance.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Do you think ideas can be implanted?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  In somebody's waking life?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  That's freaky.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  It is.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  And you're high confidence?

• 2:36Speaker 01

  I'm certain.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Matthew Brown, it's an honor to have you. I'm really excited for this, and it's been a long time coming for me because I speak to a lot of people who have experiences, obviously, on the inside with UFOs. Either they've gone through files or maybe they saw a thing that they weren't supposed to. You are very unique in my mind because, obviously, that happened. You know, it's kind of, you have a core story where you bumped into a lot of real information around UFOs. But you also seem to have extrapolated almost a model of how the nature of reality works or metaphysics works. And I don't think you make any bold claims, you know, insofar as saying that you know exactly how it works. But it seems like you've always been kind of a seeker along those lines, too.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  So I'm very excited to speak with you, both about your core experience and about, you know, some of the conclusions that you've derived from that information you've gleaned.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you, Jesse. The honor is mine as well. This is also a long time coming. It feels right to be out here and starting to open up more and share about not just those experiences whistleblowing, but kind of more of like, well, what is life like after? What does it all mean? And how do we adjust our life's interactions with this information?

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Growing up, did you always know that you wanted to go into government?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  No, no. Um, you know, I was

• 4:31Speaker 01

  pretty much an outcast in most of school. Not really till high school did I just kind of start to come out of my shell and graduated high school. Not very good prospects. And went to community college, actually, as a film student initially. So no, government was never on my mind. The closest I got was on a few occasions, getting close, like signing up for the military. But primarily because, even at that time, the sort of wars in the Middle East didn't seem, to me at least, to be a just war. And coming from a very patriotic family, the just war kind of thinking really was imbued in me from a young age.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  And then also, you know, kind of looking at like, well, what did I want to do in my life? Not the most athletic person, not the smartest. Maybe I can find somewhere to fit in in the arts. But I've had different plans. About two years into that experience, I was persuaded by a history professor to seek out a career in intelligence. From there, yeah, followed that path for

• 5:44Speaker 02

  That's interesting. Were they sort of recruiting for the intel world?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  No, I mean, this is, again, this is not an Ivy League place. This is just a local community college.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  But, you know, you have all sorts of characters at these places, though, that can teach. You know, we had a math teacher who worked on the space shuttle, specifically the thermal tiling system for that, did the calculations for that. Had someone who was, you know, kind of an ex-spook. Wasn't very clear on that. And then this lady who had experience on Wall Street and seemed to have some exposure to the intelligence world herself. So, you know, it's strange who you'll meet in the most unlikely places.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  If you're willing to learn, you know, people will open up.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  And so, were you already in DC? Or did you move to DC for the government?

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I moved to DC for grad school and to get a job. Pretty much did both at the same time. So I transferred out to community college, to a university. It's funny, I actually finished that university experience with a study abroad in Russia and moved from Russia to DC. Kind of strange, looking back on it. And then, you know, from there, you know, I've made my first sort of formal bids to join the IC, as it were, and, you know, kind of got picked up and entered into that.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Were you into UFOs throughout any of this? Either growing up or while in community college or graduate school or as an entry-level kind of Pentagon employee?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  I mean, no more than just like a, I think, maybe most people in sort of like the counterculture are like, you know, it's out there. Everyone knows the show Ancient Aliens, you know, kind of growing up with that. But it was never like a specific, like, I need to learn everything about this topic and I'm obsessed with it. It was just like, oh, that's interesting. And on to the next bit of history.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Can you say what your position was at the Pentagon at the time?

• 7:53Speaker 01

  I mean, I like to not kind of put the spotlight on those offices. But I was a policy advisor. I was a contractor at the time. I was working the counter WMD mission for the Office of the Secretary of Defense for, the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy. And, you know, down in the org chart is where I was, but we'll just leave it there for, yeah. I still respect the mission. Don't want to bring any heat their way.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  For sure. Were there any moments in that role where you had a wake-up call and you were like, "The world is way more on the brink on multiple occasions than people on the civil side realize"?

• 8:37Speaker 01

  So probably just through the course of like, I guess, higher education, you know, you in international affairs, you kind of are naturally led into like the real state of things behind or beyond the headlines and seeing, you know, just how close we are to, to violence and lawlessness kind of spilling over and destroying what we've built. So, you know, that, that definitely got to the next level, being on the inside and learning more details, more entirely novel areas of competition.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  But I guess for most of my adult life, it's kind of always felt like, you know, the drums of war are always kind of banging.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  What happened in 2018 to turn you from a garden variety, you know, person who was, you know, peripherally interested in UFOs to somebody who really believed that the government had kind of this comprehensive entanglement with UFOs, specifically this, you know, tracking and reverse engineering programs that were kind of ongoing and multi-generational?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I mean, that was built up over time, but I mean, pretty much once I was read in, just to my accesses for the counter WMD mission, like UAP just pop up. It was, it was just there as part of the threat environment. It was unknowns, but it was, you know, it wasn't like there was no awareness of it. It was just something that wasn't talked about because probably, you know, people that are read in don't, you're not allowed to talk about it. And if you're not, you know not to ask. And then that awareness, you know, kind of reached the next level again, when people know at this point, I

• 10:31Speaker 01

  was exposed to legacy program material, in this case, the Immaculate Constellation program. And that kind of discovery of, you know, kind of confirming suspicions like, okay, this is all somewhat real. The government has to be involved in tracking this. And then here's like official documentation of one aspect of how we are managing the UAP problem kind of brought me to that next level of commitment to finding out what's going on.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  And set the scene for us. So like, where are you? Or you're like at a Pentagon office and you're, you're searching, you know, through documents or what, what exactly are you doing?

• 11:11Speaker 01

  So less glamorous than that. Basically was voluntold to clean up the file system. And, you know, I was, I was very much a new employee at the time. So I was taking any job I could to just learn more and be useful. And so I, yeah, I was doing that on our, on our classified computers. And don't, yeah, don't need to get into that, but founded in there. It was, you know, labeled, nothing that would draw attention to it being a UAP briefing or anything like that. And just as part of that process, you know, open a file, see where it is, see what it is and where it should go. Open that file, see what

• 11:53Speaker 01

  it is. And like, whoa, what am, what am I looking at here? After reading through it once, it was pretty clear to me that this was, you know, a most likely something that they would call spillage. Like it was SAP material or something like that.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  SAP is Special Access Program.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yes. And it was improperly filed. And so this is based on that training that I had. Um, you know, this is an incident that you need to report. Wasn't quite sure what to do with it at the time, but a few weeks later, conveniently, you know, we got kind of archival training as an office and, you know, we learned what the pathway is specifically for dealing with SAP spillage. And so then having that kind of information started to report it to leadership and.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  What does the document say?

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, it's, it was PowerPoint briefing is what you would call a capabilities brief for senior leadership. So it's describing at a high level, you know, what this operational SAP is, very brief history of it. And.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  And what is it?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  So Immaculate Constellation, it's a, or it was described to me, at least in my limited exposure, as a operational SAP governing the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance of UAP around the world using tasked and untasked collection platforms. So that distinction being, you know, intelligence assets that are specifically, you know, looking at an area either for a specific window of time or just durationally for a certain collection target, or things that happen to, to observe, in this case, UAP incidentally on their mission. So bringing that all together, essentially in my mind, where that goes is

• 13:40Speaker 01

  you're building an operational picture of the world and having all domain awareness.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  And is this happening sort of in this really systematic way across all of our image intelligence assets? Obviously you have satellites, you have other optical sensors, you have radar, you know, on various, you know, naval ships, you know, all over the world. Is this happening sort of comprehensively? Is this kind of a niche program that we're, we're trying out at low scale? Or what sort of scale is this operating at?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Well, at the time of my exposure, you know, I've learned more since then through other sources who would know. But it was focused on imagery and massent, so measurement and signals intelligence. Sorry, measurement and signatures intelligence. So the imagery is kind of self-explanatory across different spectrums. The massent is, it's, you're basically looking at things like, you know, radar returns, electromagnetic returns, emissions, and kind of going, you're kind of in that realm of technical scientific analysis of things that if you look at the end product, it's just going to be like a spectral graph,

• 14:56Speaker 01

  not very sexy for the viewer, but it's hard scientific data gathered through pretty unique means, not just on UAP, but you can do massent on all sorts of collection targets with all sorts of means.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  And do you get the sense that this is a global project funded in the billions? Or it's like a small kind of pilot project or?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Just from that briefing alone, definitely got the sense it was global. It was well established. You know, it was, the mission itself probably, you know, took advantage of our, our existing collection architecture. And it's a mission that is operating kind of as a ride along or through existing means. I don't, do not doubt that there are dedicated collection platforms for the subject, but just sticking to what was on, on the page. Yeah, it was definitely a global, established, well-resourced effort.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  So an open, an open source version of this using kind of existing means would be SpaceX, for example, has its Starlink fleet. So thousands of satellites, you know, for, you know, internet service provider access, you know, across the globe, but they can double use those, you know, they have put optical sensors on them. And there's a program called Starshield where they can work with, you know, the NRO, you know, on, on that sort of double use. And so this would be something similar where we have all these assets that collect image intelligence and other signatures. And why not just collate all of that when it comes to UFOs and feed it into some sort of central database and presumably do some AI analysis over it?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Bingo. You got it? I would just add that, you know, yes, space-based assets were included, but it also included, you know, terrestrial assets, including like, you know, not just aircraft flying in the atmosphere, but seaborne kind of sensor platforms as well. So whole spectrum, at least what I saw was, was used.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Do we have any sense of who ran this program, where it was based? Were there any names on the document that were relevant?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  And, you know, having since learned more, have more fidelity on that, but

• 17:14Speaker 01

  that wasn't in my State Department cleared report. So I will just say that, you know, it was the, you know, pointing towards Shriver Air Force Base in Colorado as being at least one hub of this program.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  And does that make sense to you, given, was Shriver known for other things that are sort of adjacent to this?

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's a major, I mean, it's a major place for our space operations. I think there's a, there is a space command there. I used to know where a lot of commands were, but you know, that knowledge is kind of fading, but um, major space surveillance, ISR and operations hub is in Colorado Springs.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  And how much is mentioned, by the way, some of this is public right now. Is the entire Immaculate, is the entire Immaculate Constellation document public, or is it just part of it with some parts redacted that's public?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  So my, yeah, the report, I mean, that's, then that's the name that, you know, has stuck, the Immaculate Constellation report. It's a bit of a misnomer. I submitted it to Congress as a field report. It's seven categories of evidence, only one of those being the Immaculate Constellation program. Obviously that gets the attention, but there's a lot of goodness in there besides that.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  So what is in there is, is the summary of what I saw and reported to Congress, just the facts of my exposure. The broader report, you know, has more detail.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  But, you know, I provided that to Congress and a different one for submission for public clearance. So I have to stick with what was cleared for public.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Got it. So there, so there is a difference between what you saw and what the public gets to see. There's certain-

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Between what I wrote?

• 19:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Or, but, no, I mean, like the Immaculate Constellation file.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. The PowerPoint is, is, I mean, I, I never

• 19:13Speaker 01

  brought that anywhere. In fact, you know, I, going through the exposure to it and reporting it, you know, I wasn't, I didn't become a whistleblower, right? I had years of my career after that. That file, that specific file, that briefing was mysteriously deleted after being reported.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  But did you see a deeper version? So you saw obviously a different format, but did you see, you saw more information than what came out in the Michael Schellenberger congressional hearing with Nancy Mace? Is that correct? Or is it, you saw the same information?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  It's, so what, what came out in the, what I reported to Congress and in the document is, is the summary of about, you know, 12 to 15 slides, something like that. So is there more? Yes, but you basically have

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  The summary. It's not like I got the, the full, I was never fully read in, into Immaculate Constellation. I'm sure there's things I got wrong because I was only, was one limited exposure or things that are incomplete, but you know, the fact of the program has been established beyond a reasonable doubt, both through my exposure and then, you know, other sources that have developed since then. You know, some clarifications have been arrived at, which is, you know, I saw it as a DOD program. That's how it was presented in the briefing, but you know, came to learn later that it's, you know, DOD might be implementing it, but it's actually ran out of and owned by the National Security Council out of the White House. So, you know, there, there's clearly more to the story.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  But, you know, I, I'm only basing it off of a limited exposure.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  What are the most striking things that the Immaculate Constellation documents say about UFOs, UAP, non-human intelligence?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  I mean, I think,

• 21:05Speaker 01

  well, number one, it didn't really characterize what these things were, right? Pretty sure that's a separate briefing, but it just established the fact of these things operating around the world, including over the continental United States, over adversary countries, third party countries.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Both around sensitive facilities connected with WMD and then in, in the global commons, so like over the oceans.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  And-

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Does it say that they show up around weapons of mass destruction and nuclear?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  In, in that document, no, it doesn't, it does not say that they specifically do that, but that is, you know, a well-established fact, just from other reporting in the government and some of that included in, in the documents that I submitted to Congress and in the public version. And there's, there's other people besides me that have made that link, right? I think Robert Salas is probably the most famous. There's a, I saw you had a copy of one of the books, like UFO and nukes.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  It's, it's established beyond a reasonable doubt that not just nuclear facilities draw their attention, but WMD in general.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  And so, okay, so it talks about these sort of global reports of UFOs. It also talks about different geometries, isn't that right? And kind of taxonomy of-

• 22:35Speaker 01

  So my report does, the Immaculate Constellation briefing included examples of different types. Again, this is a briefing for senior leadership, so it's kind of high level. In the document, you know, it showed basically four case studies, if you want to call it that, of collection events on these that were relatively recent to the time of that report's drafting, or sorry, that briefing's drafting, which was around 2018. So, you know, most interesting one to me was a, was a big triangle over, over Russian naval vessels. And indeed, that was kind of like the first example led, or presented

• 23:13Speaker 01

  in the briefing. Also included were things like orbs. And it was interesting because one of the events that was listed there was an event I was already familiar with outside of that briefing itself, kind of demonstrating that, you know,

• 23:31Speaker 01

  these events might occur outside of the Immaculate Constellation tasking, but they are brought into sort of the mission as, as part of its, you know, role and capabilities.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  What happened with the triangle?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  So I mean, it, as described in there, it appeared over, so sorry, to set the scene, we had a, a surveillance asset in the ocean off the, I believe it was Kamchatka, but the eastern seaboard of Russia in the, in the Pacific. And there was a grouping of Russian naval vessels, one of them being a known Russian intelligence vessel

• 24:14Speaker 01

  at night. And then the triangle basically appears, you know, whether you say a decloaked, materialized, phased in, who knows? The point is that it just, it appeared seemingly out of nowhere. Did not describe, you know, what the, what the nature of that appearance was. But it appeared above them relatively, relatively close. Like it wasn't way up in the sky. It was maybe a football field or two above them and just hovered there. Kind of described as like, you know, kind of tilted to the side.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  And there was no reaction from the Russian vessels. Anybody could have seen that thing. So we did as well. And, you know, it kind of just hung, hung out there for a duration of time. The briefing didn't describe how long and then disappeared kind of just as suddenly as it appeared. And that's really the, the summary of that event. You know, it described the event, described, they're sorry, the briefing described the event, described, you know, who, who, which vessels were there, you know, names of them and stuff. And the fact that they had been there in that area for a period of time before

• 25:36Speaker 01

  the best, before the triangle appeared. And their analysis was that they had, that the Russians had foreknowledge that this triangle would appear there. And then they were essentially there to meet with it or waiting, or waiting for it to appear.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  How did the Russians have foreknowledge that the triangle would appear there?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Not explained.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  Maybe they-

• 25:54Speaker 01

  I can guess.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Maybe they had their, their own version of Immaculate Constellation, or maybe they were messing with some nuclear stuff or, because there are baiting techniques, right? To like, cause these UFOs to show up?

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I mean, to, to verge into my own speculation and not what was on the page,

• 26:14Speaker 01

  I've come to believe that that was some sort of pre-arranged meeting, for whatever purpose, I don't know.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  But the triangles in particular seem to be highly advanced.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  I think when we talk about baiting operations, you're baiting more of sort of automatic sensors that might be in our atmosphere or in our oceans,

• 26:36Speaker 02

  Like probes or?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Things like that. Yeah, that are, you know, kind of a cause and effect response versus something like the triangle by many accounts is is is under intelligent control, highly advanced, seems like it would be unlikely that it would not just be baited by Russian naval vessels in the ocean, but um, you know, appear in such close proximity to them for for fun. It seems like there was some some reason for that meeting.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  So you think the meeting was intentional on both sides?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  At this point, yeah, I think um,

• 27:13Speaker 02

  And when we say meeting, the things materializing and then flying off, what is that?

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  What what do the Russians get out of, you know, even trying to sort of meet with? You know, it's not like you're like sitting down

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  over a table and, you know, conversing and talking about, you know, you're not negotiating anything, right? Or or do you think something is transferred when the?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Probably some sort of transfer. Yeah, less a diplomatic meeting where people get off a ship and have dinner. More of, it seems like, again, speculation that that was some sort of transfer event. Maybe it was data, right? Being transferred in a secure way, you know, a line of sight kind of links so that there's low probability of intercept or something else.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  But that, wow.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  That would imply, I mean, if there was some sort of data transfer that that the Russians were aware of, and they're sort of like, you know, predetermining this meeting, that would imply a level of coordination with the beings that, you know, would be remarkable. It would be like at the highest levels of our government and their government, we're sort of meeting, you know, when we want to with aliens or with aliens as a, you know, a conclusion, but with

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Something anomalous.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Some intelligence. Yeah.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  I I mean, I I can't say off of just that document alone that that was a non-human craft. It certainly lines up with descriptions of non-human craft, but at this point in time, it's possible that, you know, the United States and others have some sort of derivative technology that looks like the big black triangle, right? There's that famous NID study done in the, I think, late 90s or early 2000s where they correlate triangle sightings to naval bases in the United States. So either what's what's going on is, you know, there's some sort of recurring exchange or and use of our facilities by whatever is piloting these big black triangles.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Or or we have some sort of derivative technology ourselves that operate from these bases. Jeff Nussetelli also described, you know, a big black triangle coming out of the Pacific Ocean, flying into Vandenberg, basically hovering over the runway at Vandenberg Air Force Base and then disappearing.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  I talked to five shaken witnesses who described a massive triangular craft, larger than a football field, that hovered silently for about 45 seconds over their enter control point before shooting away at impossible speed.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Dylan Borland, also at Langley in 2012.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 29:47Speaker 04

  At approximately 0130, I saw an approximately 100-foot equilateral triangle take off from near the NASA hangar on the base.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  He sees this triangular craft seemingly kind of come out of, or maybe it was hovering around a NASA hangar at the Air Force Base, and then it flies at his head.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  And then it flies off.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd be pretty freaked out if that happened to me.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, you know, there's, these are all examples of the United States having some sort of relationship with these with these craft, whether it's our own gifted tech or truly a third party.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Can only speculate, but you know, I have some good guesses.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  What's your, what's your best guess?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  That there is an exchange, some sort of arrangement with whatever is piloting the

• 30:39Speaker 01

  the black triangles that are not ours. I believe we do have a derivative version at this point. But that is, again, derived from the real thing. And the real thing, there is some sort of ongoing contact and communication.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Clearly not just the United States, but other governments as well.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  That's my opinion.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  And when it flies in the vicinity, there's like some sort of download that occurs. There's like a transmission of information.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  That's what some people have reported. Again, I did not come across official information. Well, I did not come across information on that in the Immaculate Constellation briefing.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Okay. All right. We'll read between the lines there. What, any other case studies that really struck you outside of this Russian naval vessel incident?

• 31:30Speaker 01

  So I mean, in in the Immaculate Constellation briefing, that was the the highlight for me. The other ones were examples of of orbs or irregular slash organic things, and some of those were, again, incidents I was familiar with that had would be incidental collections because I'd seen them on other systems. But they clearly were fed up into Immaculate Constellation. So I was already familiar with them is what I'm getting at. It was certainly notable to see them in the briefing and see the analysis done with them. But the triangle was entirely novel and new. And as I think I point out, like, there seems to be some sort of control, like information control system or security

• 32:12Speaker 01

  classification internal related directly to the triangles because they appear very rarely in the sort of regular reporting streamline. And they're definitely, in my opinion, plucked out and sequestered.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Can I read your report? Because I think it'd be good for people to just, okay. Immaculate Constellation's primary mission is collecting imagery intelligence on unidentified aerial phenomenon and ARV slash RV. So ARV, is that Alien Reproduction Vehicle? Or is that Advanced Research Vehicle? Or what is ARV?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there is what was presented in the Immaculate Constellation briefing. And my report to Congress was just reporting what I saw, not my opinions on it. So in the briefing, ARV and RV were the terms, were the abbreviations used throughout. It was expanded, right, on on only one occasion.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  And to the best of my recollection, it was expanded as Alien Reproduction Vehicle. Now, my personal opinion is that that term, as well as the sort of upfront context of, oh, MCON was created as a result of Lou Elizondo exposing ATIP, were two instances of information, kind of poison pills, as you were, or signature.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  What am I trying to say here? Basically, a counterintelligence tool to see that, okay, we described these things using these words and gave this kind of program history during these years. So if there is a leak and we see in the leak that these terms are used or this program history is used, then we can start narrowing in on, you know, who leaked it because, you know, counterintelligence, internal security keeps that file, right? My personal opinion is that if you're going to do FOIA searches, you're going to have better luck searching for the term Advanced Reconnaissance Vehicle. You'll find some things from TRW in particular.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Not the Army ground platform that comes up from the cursory search.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  You know, the the term I know I've since learned has a bit of a reputation, both from the, I think, Mark McCannish?

• 34:40Speaker 02

  McCannish, yeah.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  McCannish story, which I only became familiar with after publishing this because everyone jumped on it. And the sort of Stephen Greer expansions on that dialogue.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  To me, it always seemed a bit too on the nose to call something an Alien Reproduction Vehicle in a briefing like that. But again, I just reported to Congress what I saw, so. Yep. Take it as you will. I would not put too much stock in that term being the full truth of what those are. But the acronym itself, ARV or RV, I believe, will also yield good returns to people that use those terms to search.

• 35:22Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  We're in the hall of mirrors. This is intelligence. This is counterintelligence. This is program protection.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  You know, I wish there was a simple answer so that I didn't have to qualify things and could give people easy digestible answers, but that's not where we're at.

• 35:41Speaker 05

  Do you think that there's a chance that the spillage and that you kind of bumping into this document, Immaculate Constellation, was actually by design and that it was some sort of program protection device and that some intel group is systematically tagging advanced research vehicles or reconnaissance vehicles with the sort of alien insignia in order to be able to sort of track the flow of, you know, who talks about these sorts of things?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Personally, no. If you're going to have bait, you would make it much more appealing. The document was a working document. It was clearly something that was in the middle of being drafted. Like there were placeholder slides, right, where a control officer would insert SAP material. There were no appropriate portion markings. And I was able to see, looking at the file history, like it had been edited recently by certain people. And it wasn't labeled in a way that would draw attention, nor was it stored in a location that people would want to search for it. It was just...

• 36:41Speaker 05

  Do you know who wrote it?

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Uh, I know at least one person who was editing it.

• 36:47Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  You know, you can only learn so much from a file's metadata, especially when you're working in a bureaucracy.

• 36:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 05

  Anybody's name you can say, or?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  No, I, you know, I gave that information to Congress. Yeah.

• 37:04Speaker 05

  Okay. And you said Immaculate Constellation is an unacknowledged special access program, so USAP. It was established following the public disclosure of the ATIP SAP programs run by Luis Elizondo in 2017. So did Lou Elizondo have something to do with Immaculate Constellation? He was, you know, before Congress a couple of years ago. And, you know, actually, next to Michael Schellenberger, who was basically kind of a surrogate for you, like talking about Immaculate Constellation, you know, handed the docs to Nancy Mace, along with Jeremy Corbell, very important to mention that. But when asked about Immaculate Constellation, Lou Elizondo said...

• 37:47Speaker 06

  Mr. Elizondo, were you read into the Immaculate Constellation program?

• 37:51Speaker 07

  I would not be authorized to confirm nor deny the existence of any ongoing or past program, especially as it relates to a special access program, either by name or tri-graft.

• 38:04Speaker 05

  The modern hermeneutic on that is you were read in and you know all about it.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  You know, so... Yeah, the Glomar response kind of lost its utility. Everyone knows you're saying yes at this point.

• 38:13Speaker 05

  Right. So even a counterintelligence would know that that's going to be interpreted as like, you know, people are going to know that you were, you were all over it.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  So I mean, yes, that, you know, I'm paraphrasing. I never brought the briefing itself to Congress, nor could I. It was years since that exposure and deleted and I never,

• 38:35Speaker 01

  you know, did anything like that. But that is how it was described. I don't think that's accurate. I think that is an intentional, you know, half-truth included in the document to both kind of give a plausible history to the program, as well as a signature for, again, people that would spill it, or sorry, leak it later on, if anybody leaked it later on, counterintelligence could say, okay, we know, you know, these kind of signifiers were used, so we know who was exposed to this material and can start searching. I've, again, through other sources, learned that, you know, Immaculate Constellation is a relatively old program. It's an old mission, I should say, run out of the NSC. It was not created

• 39:20Speaker 01

  in response to Lou going forward in 2017 and revealing the ATIP code word or pseudonym.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  So, you know, again, we're in the hall of mirrors.

• 39:34Speaker 05

  So you think that was, the document was not reflecting the reality, which is that this had been a longstanding program running up to the National Security Council? And this was sort of being claimed by OSAP, ATIP, and these sort of modern, much smaller, you know, nominal kind of UFO efforts. Is that right?

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Um, seems to be the case.

• 39:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  I'd also say that since you're briefing senior leaders, you know, you're trying to just establish a high level view of this. And also, the people who own these programs get to have a voice on what, what information is briefed outwards. So that might be going on as well. Like, we're only going to give them the bare minimum level of detail. And hey, we'll stick with current events. This is in 2018, Black Arrows and Black Budgets, or whatever that article was just a year prior. So it gives a plausible sort of foundation to any senior leader who has not previously read into any other UAP programs to kind of latch on to and say, okay, this is what it is. I don't have to think too much further.

• 40:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because OSAP was a $22 million program. So I don't think of that as even being able to house some like 360 surveillance, global ubiquitous, you know, yeah, intel collecting network on UFOs.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I would hazard to guess that because Immaculate Constellation is an operational SAP, you know, it doesn't actually own any of the capabilities. It owns the mission and the tasking. The actual assets themselves, the research and development for them, the analysis is all going to be pushed down to the actual like functional components and most likely are in their own stovepipe saps and caps, you know, compartmentation all the way down.

• 41:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, got it. Okay. And some of the other things that your report mentions are just fascinating. CENTCOM, what is CENTCOM for the...

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Central Command.

• 41:37Speaker 05

  Central Command discusses cuboid formation of metallic orbs on USG networks, US government networks. There exists daytime FMV, what's FMV? Full motion video?

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:49Speaker 05

  And flare forward looking infrared footage of a formation of 12 metallic orbs skimming the ocean's surface at high speed before dispersing in multiple directions. That's pretty wild.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 41:59Speaker 05

  Indo-PACOM, what's Indo-PACOM?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Indian Ocean Pacific Command.

• 42:05Speaker 05

  Indian Ocean Pacific Command.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  I probably had that wrong, actually, but yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 05

  All good. Large disk using clouds as concealment. On USG networks, there exists OPIR information, OPIR.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Overhead persistent infrared.

• 42:19Speaker 05

  Of a large saucer shaped UAP emerging within a dense cloud formation. NORTHCOM, is that north, northern command?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Northern Command, yep. USA.

• 42:28Speaker 05

  Jellyfish UAP crosses US Mexico border. SOUTHCOM, Southern Command, Tic Tac detected by space asset in proximity of vessel. And, you know, that obviously makes you think of Nimitz in 2004 and other sort of Tic Tac reports in and around the water, but this is much more recent. The Tic Tac maneuvers at an altitude at or near local cloud cover. And correlated electromagnetic signatures were collected by MACENT. So that's the collection capability we're talking about before. What does MACENT stand for again?

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Measurement and Signatures Intelligence.

• 43:04Speaker 05

  Measurement and Signatures Intelligence. In the available footage, the Tic Tac UAP transits rapidly through the field of regard as it transits the ocean. It's wild. So that's this transmedium Tic Tac being discussed.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yep. In proximity to a naval vessel.

• 43:21Speaker 05

  So wild.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Again, you know, either it is interested in these military vessels. I have to revisit my reports. I don't speak out of school. But...

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Quite interesting that you have that kind of occurrence in Immaculate Constellation with the triangle. And then in this, which is separate reporting stream, separate exposure, not exposures, but separate intelligence, you have similar kind of behavior being done by a very advanced vehicle.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Wild. And you also have kind of a taxonomy. So you have, you know, specific geometries that you list and general capabilities or attributes kind of associated with those, you know, forms and shapes and stuff. So just one example, table two is a disk slash saucer. You go over orbs before that, you know, triangles after that. But the disk slash saucer, you know, size generally range from a few meters to over 20 meters in diameter. Speed exhibits capabilities for both hovering and high speed flight, often making sudden sprints. Radar detection varies. Visual sightings are more common. They're often metallic silver

• 44:35Speaker 02

  or gray is common. So that's just fascinating. So do you think this is what is being sort of outputted by all of these, you know, kind of collection? So you do all these collections, you know, as part of this program, and then you funnel that into some sort of AI analytical overlay or something. Are these attributes what comes out on the other end? Is that sort of your understanding that you're reporting on?

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Those sections, we are no longer talking about the Immaculate Constellation briefing. Those are separate intelligence sources.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  And those, those tables you're looking at are self-generated based on my exposure to many things.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  They're aggregated. I would hazard to guess, though, that they match pretty closely to what's on the inside and independent analysis that's been done on the inside. Because the simple fact of, you know, we're all looking at the same data, you're going to come to similar conclusions. If you're operating in good faith.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So kind of similar to Dylan Borland, who I just had on a show, you have like a core experience. In his case, it was seeing a craft. In your case, it was bumping into this document. And then you kind of vigilante after the fact, you're like, this is insane. I need to verify and look more into this and look at corroboration for this outside of just this core, single document. Is that right?

• 45:54Speaker 01

  I mean, a little bit. I mean, again, I was exposed to UAP intelligence before coming across the Immaculate Constellation briefing and after, because I was in the WMD mission space, these were incidents that were reported in our intelligence stream very often.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  So it was, you know, it wasn't like vigilantism. It was, this is part of my mission.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  So you, you knew of reports before seeing the Immaculate Constellation documents?

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Of UFOs showing up at nuclear sites and that. Wow.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Across all sources of intelligence. So whether it's imagery intelligence and all those different forms of it to signals, to human, to massent, to sigent, I said signals. Yeah. So even before IMCON, that exposure, yeah, definitely. The fact of UAP was rapidly established in my mind and just through the virtue of my job.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  Have you seen video that's stepwise clearer or sharper than what we've seen from kind of, you know, naval video, you know, forward looking infrared coming out in 2017?

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• 47:35Speaker 02

  As you guys know, I'm often doing shows that run three or four, sometimes even five hours. People see the finished conversation, but the real work is what comes before it. Weeks of reading and research. And then I've got to actually sustain that level of attention and detail in the room, live for hours. Sometimes I'm kind of groggy and I've flown halfway around the world for a single sit down. Obviously, I think that everything I cover needs to be handled really thoroughly. And with the utmost respect, I have to show up at my best for my guests. And for me, coffee just doesn't do that job. Too much caffeine and I'm absolutely buzzing through the first hour and I'm crashing in the second. And that's the exact opposite of what I need. So here's what I've been using lately as a substitute.

• 48:19Speaker 02

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• 49:34Speaker 02

  Have you seen video that's stepwise clearer or sharper than what we've seen from kind of, you know, naval video, you know, forward looking infrared coming out in 2017?

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Wow. That's remarkable. Is that like, that's kind of a heavy thing to sit with, I imagine, the fact that, you know?

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Well, I never saw any beings on the inside. So I always, not always, I'm, you know, I can guess why, because you know that there's probably a control system for those.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  All this stuff coming out from these Department of War, you know, data drops, data dumps are just very fuzzy, you know?

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  And so you've seen things that are way sharper than what's come out there.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  I would, yeah, definitely. Also, I mean, there's the difference of seeing those kind of Department of War videos on the inside in near real time, right? And the kind of level of confidence you have in what you're seeing being truly anomalous and very relevant in your day to day mission versus seeing it in its censored form and its downgraded form on the outside. So, you know, it's, I've definitely been exposed to a mix of quality, both in terms of the visual fidelity and in the resolution of what this object is. But, I mean, you can't replicate the exposure, sorry, the experience of seeing stuff on the inside and it's like this happened yesterday.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  That definitely has an emotional impact and, you know, from a level of certainty, like, you know, I personally, you personally feel very confident that, you know, what was collected on really occurred and is important.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  After seeing the Immaculate Constellation docs, does your desire to know ramp up? So obviously you have the sort of like smattering of reports that come in due to just incidentally, you know, you being involved in counter WMD stuff, these things show up around sensitive nuclear assets. So obviously you're going to run into UFOs through, you know, that job. But then you see this doc and you realize that we've kind of been comprehensively sequestering, quarantining and, you know, really, you know, gathering intelligence on UFOs globally. Do you then want to kind of like do a deeper dive?

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely. And, you know, on a more personal level, it was, okay, I'm early in my career. How can I get into the office that does this? How can I, how can I get a job working the UAP mission set? That, that was the, the personal motivation there was less, you know, go, you know, go find all the details, kind of secret squirrel. Like it was more of, okay, this is very real. There's clearly a lot going on that the US government isn't telling its own employees. How do I get a job working this issue?

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Did you try to get a job in the UFO legacy program?

• 52:37Speaker 01

  I'll just say that I figured out a few places where both my skill set would apply and the mission would overlap. And, you know, I was on that, on that direction. Yeah.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  And what, what would you describe your core skill set as?

• 52:58Speaker 01

  And, you know, I was never formally, you know, an analyst. I was never an operations officer. I was kind of living in a nebulous world of, of strategy, right? Okay. So my, my skill set, as it were, fell under net assessment and strategic development. So the first term is kind of a term of art in the.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  In the military or the strategic culture of the United States, net assessment being like you're basically weighing up blue force capabilities, red force capabilities,

• 53:35Speaker 01

  intelligence around all that, both, you know, your domestic picture and your adversary's domestic picture and not necessarily coming to a conclusion about like, you know, how many tanks do they have this year and how are they going to have next year? It's okay. What does the United States need to do to achieve its interests, given this net assessment of, of the state of play in the world? And using that to kind of drive our strategy in very long-term increments, 10, 20, 30, 50 years. And the grandfather of that was a man called Andrew Marshall, the Yoda of the Pentagon. There's a whole office to it called the Office of Net Assessment. Very interesting place.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, they do kind of, like you said, kind of long-term strategic planning, which seems really like, you know, especially vis a vis China, where you have leadership that's entrenched for many years, that's not being cycled in and out, you know, it feels like a real deficit when it comes to, you know, US planning.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think we keep those cards close to our chests, rightly so, but maybe too close because if not, everybody's, you know, playing to the same music, you get a lot of wasted effort. And I think unfortunately, that that has occurred, both as a consequence of,

• 54:49Speaker 01

  you know, stove piping and then excessive classification, compartmentation, whatever you want to call it.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  What happens between you potentially wanting to work the UFO legacy program and you saying, you know, being kind of exasperated and wanting to blow the whistle instead?

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, it was really, you know, current events. I was just minding my own business, really, continuing my career. And because it was in WMD, that meant more and more exposure to UAP and more and more exposure to like the, the communities inside the, the IC and the Pentagon that were tracking this and discussing it. And it really came down to, um,

• 55:34Speaker 01

  I guess, you know, learning from people in that community that Congress needed whistleblowers, that this was not being managed correctly, that it was being withheld from both the executive leadership and the congressional leadership, that, you know, there is no oversight, this program has kind of gone rogue.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  You know, I didn't, I've kind of developed in my view of, of what, uh, that situation is. But at the time, it is kind of presented as,

• 56:09Speaker 01

  you know, this was, this is a consequence of kind of Cold War secrecy. It's been out, you know, on its own for too long. Now we're trying to reel it back in without exposing capabilities.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  You know, help us do that. Then there was another

• 56:27Speaker 01

  line of communication that was saying like, people's lives are at risk, both because of the security measures being taken to keep the secret, the kind of corruption or

• 56:39Speaker 01

  unprofessionalism that has seeped into the program just by virtue of being so in the black, so unilaterally managed. And that there's, you know, potential like external threats that are going to put these people's lives at risk. So that combination of no executive or no executive and congressional oversight, at least to the civilian leadership, plus people's lives being in danger is what pushed me to become a whistleblower. And in fact, I was asked to be a whistleblower, even after hearing that information, I felt like I didn't have anything that would be sufficiently useful to, to Congress. But

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Were you asked by Congress or who?

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Someone else who was, who was, um, you know, interfacing with Congress and then, you know, kind of did a delicate dance of like, here's, here's some code words.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you should go. It doesn't matter how little you know, Congress really does need it. And, uh,

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  I followed that.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  And before, I think it's really important to note that before going to Congress, before, you know, trying to potentially work legacy and then becoming a whistleblower, you also reported the, this quote unquote spillage is I guess the term.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Where, you know, you bumped into this classified special access program doc and you realized you shouldn't have. And you also realized it shouldn't just be sitting there on the server. And so you reported it to the proper authorities.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was years before becoming a whistleblower. Um, I, I, yeah, I'll just briefly tell the story. Um, you know, once I found out, you know, the proper process and kind of sat with it for a while, like, well, I saw this thing. I got to tell someone at this point. Yeah. So I, I went to my first like sort of direct report, showed it to him.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  He basically recommended to me, uh, delete that and pretend you never saw it. And then he just left the room. And I was like, well, damn, uh, old heads telling me that, uh, do I follow his advice or do I keep trying to do like what the procedures say?

• 58:49Speaker 01

  So I followed the procedure, went to the next level of authority. That person said, okay, you need to go to SAPCO, uh, Special Access Program Coordinating Office. And report this. So then I went there. That was the third kind of reporting chain. And that's where I was told like, okay, you don't need to sign anything, go away. Very mysterious kind of, uh, interaction. And then the file was deleted and I just went on with my life. There was no outcome from that. I just, uh, you know, privately came to the conclusion like, well, that was, that was real.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  I'm going to follow their advice and not talk about that anymore and continue in my career.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  Were you able to independently verify that Immaculate Constellation was a real program outside of just this one kind of PowerPoint you saw?

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Okay, yes.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  And this is through just other personnel who would know or?

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, people that had placement and access, as they say. So, you know, I,

• 59:49Speaker 02

  And you take their word for it? Are, were they definitely not in coordination with one another? Were they in disparate sort of roles where they would have the access and knowledge?

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, to the best of my ability to determine, for sure. Um, and if it was just rumor, you know, that's probably not enough. But having seen the source material itself and gone through the anomalous sort of reporting process and having the broader context of exposure to UAP, no doubt in my mind, it's a real mission, real program.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Does any of this have to do with the National Reconnaissance Office and their sentient program?

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  I mean, to a degree, you know, you could think of that as like an enabler to the mission. The sentient program would have come online, to my understanding, after like, you know, Immaculate Constellation had already existed, but would have been integrated with it as, you know, leveraging artificial intelligence to, to do sort of this sourcing and basically live detection and censorship or, uh, compartmentalization rather of these collection events to both maintain sort of the internal security control and then, but more importantly, to, to get eyes on to an event, you know, rapidly to collect more instead of, you know, having to wait days or months again.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  What about, there's a program at the National Geospatial Agency called Marsupial. Is that related at all?

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  No comment.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  Okay, no comment. Um, and anything dealing with like CIA's Office of Global Access or Rapid Response or anything like that?

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  So I never was exposed to, you know, their relevance to the UAP mission, but I find all of the public reporting that's been done on it, uh, very plausible.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so obviously these things are being spotted globally. For me, I'm like 100% on that, on this, you know, these anomalous objects, obviously showing up in aerial spaces and really sensitive military facilities, nuclear sites, national labs. That feels like, almost like you, you gotta really be, you know, dogmatically skeptical, a bad actor, or like not very smart to like, accept that that's true.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  And so Immaculate Constellation corroborating that we're measuring that is very interesting. And, you know, I'd say remarkable unto itself. But to me, there's always this cutoff between that and like this multi-generational, you know, decades-long crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. Are you also confident in that? And are you as confident that we have, you know, the tracking over here of just these aerial objects as we are like nuts and bolts material that we're working on and we have NHI-derived tech?

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Hmm. I, I mean, yes, uh, no direct exposure to the reverse engineering program, at least from my time on the inside. Um, you know, you meet people afterwards and make of it what you will. I think there's enough there, there though, to, uh, to say that something like that is, is ongoing and is ran out of our national labs for sure, and our defense contractors, most probably. Um, and that there has been successes.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  The

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Crash retrieval program, I, I mean, I kind of wonder if that's a bit of a misnomer intentionally. So like, how often are these things just crashing? Or if they are crashing, is it so much an accident as it is like, you know? Is it more of a result of some sort of conflict between either between these things? Or have we developed some capability to bring at least a subset of these type of vehicles? You know, down. Um, and also, you know, do you think we There's an archaeological aspect of that as well, which I think is probably more interesting. Cause then you're getting into, well, that's kind of proof just through geological processes that these technologies have been here for a long time.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Right? If you're digging something up under, you know, tens of meters of sediment deposited on the ocean floor. Like that takes time to build up.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  And do you, or do you think there is an archaeological component where we're finding these things?

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  I mean, that's something that I've since come to, uh, both believe and kind of learn more about.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's, there's, that's definitely, uh, one of the sort of

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Do you think that's

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  secret aspects to this?

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you think that's more, I mean, Bob Lazar said that, uh, you know, the craft that he worked on was from an archaeological dig on the ocean floor. And it came from the Navy. And so, yeah, yeah. Do you think that that's more common maybe than actual crashes?

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  I would, I mean, just my personal opinion, yes.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  I think

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  shooting down these things, especially if they, the category of these anomalous craft that are non-human in origin is, is probably

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  dangerous to do. But I am not briefed into, you know, the nature of our relationship with these beings and what level of cooperation or competition we have with them. So I won't make a, a value statement on that like some will where it's like, oh, we're shooting down our space brothers. I don't, I, I wish it was true, but I don't think we are in such a, uh, you know, magnanimous, uh, position with these beings.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Are you high conviction in anything when it comes to UFOs or anomalous, non-human intelligence? That is very kind of contrarian and goes against kind of the prevailing, you know, understanding of how these things work. You know, either from a, you know, intent perspective or crash retrieval reverse engineering perspective, or like what the government's relationship is to these things.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  I don't know. Um, I'm, you know, I'm not from ufology.

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  I, I, uh, don't have the background or the sort of, you know, the lines drawn in the sand. Like I'm in the camp where, you know, there's no such thing as a threat. That's all government propaganda to the, oh, it's all a threat.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  So maybe that's contrarian. I, I think it's a mix. I think just like humanity, um, itself, you know, there's violent actors. There's good people that are violent and under duress too, or for good reasons. Yeah, I think.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  I think, uh, like I said, uh, the reality is, is more complicated than we're allowed to believe. And, um, saying it's all this, it's all that is, is, is reductive and unhelpful.

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  When you were speaking with George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell, you said these things might be made for purpose. As if they're like made to spec for specific functions.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  What makes you believe that?

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  So that's looking specifically at sort of the, you could almost consider them like tactical vehicles, things that are on the smaller side.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Especially things that are like irregularly shaped where it looks like they have either things that are like, you know, custom configured antennas or like manipulator kind of objects or, or parts of it that seem like it's for storage of physical things. So yeah, that, that's kind of my personal analysis of, of a subset of UAP that would, you know, that was familiar with. That seemed like, yeah, they have some definite process. That's not an aerodynamic shape. Even if maybe that doesn't matter so much. So much of this is like very simple geometry. So when you have things that have more complex or, you know, asymmetric geometry, my mind goes towards, well, it's fulfilling some sort of specific role, task, purpose.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  And then, you know, you kind of see, uh, them interacting in areas where, hey, maybe they're picking up stuff. You kind of, it kind of lends weight towards, towards that in my mind.

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  Pay, what would they be picking up?

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, they seem to be interested in certain mineral deposits. So it might be, you know, some level of extraction or sampling there. And, uh, it's uncomfortable, but I think there's some sort of, uh, extraction and sampling of, uh, Earth's flora and fauna.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Possibly human beings?

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  And

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Probably not limited.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  A specific subset of human beings?

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  I don't, I, so when we're talking about, uh, you know, what the craft are used for, I don't know if there's any relation to that. Uh, you know, I can have separate speculation that, you know, there, maybe there's certain categories of, of humanity, um, that are more interesting to them. But that's not, uh, from inside information. That's kind of

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  my own thoughts.

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  Do you think that we've made agreements with the beings?

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Yes. For several reasons, I mean,

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  the, the most defensible is just from an analysis of the situation. You know, I come from international affairs, uh, diplomatic history, you know, international competition. And so looking at behavior to kind of, uh, divine intent, you know, capabilities only gets you so far in there in that realm. The behavior, especially between human, um, human players involved doesn't, is, it does not seem explainable. Unless there is some sort of agreement, uh, both between nations and imposed or arrived at, uh, between them and the third parties. Specifically related to like the secrecy measures, the lack of any sort of public or official disclosure.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  The, the military arrangements we've had in, in formal treaties, like there's that 1970 something outer space treaty where we agree to like notify each other. Uh, if we detect UFOs, um, that's, that's, I mean, that's straight up an example of an agreement.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's open source. Anybody can look it up. I think it's 1971 salt talks between, uh, you know, the US and Soviets. And they're saying, we have to coordinate around, you know, UFOs showing up in sensitive airspace. So

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  And that there's some, you know, bits and information kind of picked up from the inside and since then, from people that are positioned to know that, that points towards, yeah, there is at least some basic sort of set of agreements between the United States and some sort of third party. And most likely other countries have some sort of similar, or alliance blocks have some sort of similar arrangement.

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  What do you think we're conceding and what do you think we're gaining through these agreements?

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  I don't know if we gain that much. Uh, I don't think, I don't think any level of altruism has been displayed. I think it's more, uh,

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  So we're being submitted essentially. We have to make, we have to make these agreements.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or maybe, you know, also just, uh, agreements doesn't always have to be an exchange. It could be being brought into awareness that, you know, these are the rules.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  You now, humans, because of your capabilities and population spread are being, you know,

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  rising to our level of attention. This is kind of how Earth operates at a certain level. So you need to do these things to stay in sort of the established, uh, precedence of, of life on Earth.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Interesting. And, and, uh, what do you think they're getting out of it? Because if they're, you know, 360 dominating us, why even, you know, engage in some sort of explicit diplomacy versus just like, you know, take what you want and, you know, come and go as you please.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So to set the foundation for that, I mean, starting to be more open.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  I have learned that it is the oral tradition in the legacy program itself, that agreements were struck between the United States and a third party in possession of this technology and that that agreement in broad terms has two kind of

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  arrangements. One was that there's certain areas that the United States within its borders, you know, needs to stay away from that. That is essentially someone else's territory. So no developments there, no military operations there, no commercial or human activity.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  That's one area and of the agreement. And then the other side is some sort of access and access to and communication with humans of their choice. And that that is the nature of at least one very old agreement sometime in the Truman and Eisenhower era that was arrived at.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  I'm sure that there are things in the lore that give more detail. I can't speak to the validity of those things, but I'm just sharing that now that that is

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  in, in the legacy program itself, at least a, a line of

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  not thought, but narrative.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, in the lore, you have this idea of this Griotta treaty where Eisenhower, you know, under the guise of going to the dentist in Palm Springs in 1954, instead jets off to Edwards Air Force Base, where some diplomatic relations are engaged with, with, with these beings. And, uh, what the sort of common story is, is that the beings are given access to humans for medical experimentation, to American citizens.

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  But that's interesting. So you, you think there's an oral tradition where, uh, you know, in the legacy program, this is undocumented, but it's sort of well known among people who work on, you know, UFO, you know, crash retrievals, reverse engineering or tracking that some sort of treaties were engaged in.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Agreements is the term that it was told to me.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  And that might be because treaties have to be, you know, ratified by Congress. But a business agreement does not. So I don't know anything about this Griotta treaty.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  When there's that kind of level of detail, I'm kind of skeptical, especially given the amount of time that has passed. If you're running, if all this is real, like I really believe it is and have direct knowledge that aspects of it are concretely real.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Then we would be running, you know, we are security apparatus would inject disinformation when there's leaks or to preempt, you know, any sort of

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  revelation that would be, you know, counter to our interests. So I think there's a lot of, um, half truths or complete fabrications out there that have kind of become unquestioned parts of the UFO community or UFO narrative.

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  But I think there's a core truth there and it makes, to me, it makes sense. You know, that there has to be some sort of agreement between us and other nations regarding this topic and us and a third party. Otherwise our strategic behavior does not make sense.

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  So it's almost like the UFO legacy program has this like hermetic sort of unspoken oral tradition, like things, things aren't written down. Is that kind of what you're implying?

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Yes. And, you know, developed sources since then and been approached by people that, you know, are, I think there is roughly a split between those who want reform in some degree of this to come out and those who don't very, very much do not want any of it to come out.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  And Dylan Borland kind of hinted at this, or actually pretty direct about it with you, where he said that there was a choice, a decision made to stop briefing new people in the legacy program on the history of the program. So that, you know, you're kind of just, you know, getting into the next generation of people that have no background and into the, the ground truth of, you know, where this came from, what has happened and why decisions were made. You're starting fresh and you don't, you get to avoid the sort of complications of the past, probably except for a very small circle of senior leadership who would, who would have the need to know. So that is, is kind of pointing towards, well, why is it an oral tradition? It's because you have a bifurcation now of people who were,

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  you know, briefed into legacy before that decision was made to stop telling people the history or some version of the history of the program. And those who have since come into the program did not receive that history. But people talk and people have questions, especially with something as significant as this, has the oral tradition.

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  It's so wild that, you know, you would think that this is like the most important stuff. So.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Which is why you would keep it secret, especially when it's things like agreements that maybe were, the US was compelled to sign and probably it may have terms unfavorable to us. You certainly wouldn't want something like that leaking, especially when you present yourself as the world's hyperpower, you know? And, and to be clear, I'm not the only person out here talking about this. Neither is Dylan Borland. David Grush, under oath, was asked about agreements and said that he could not provide further detail, uh, but he hopes that the people in the legacy program would come forward with that information.

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Possibly an indication that we've made agreements. And, uh, you know, when it comes to access to human beings, it brings to mind the story of Dan Sherman. You know, in Above Black and, you know, that's his book. I interviewed him and he, he was this electronics intelligence guy, you know, at the Air Force and he was doing this sort of continuing education thing back in Maryland. He went into this NSA complex and, um, somebody top brass at the Air Force brings him in and starts telling him that his mother was genetically, he was genetically altered as a fetus in the womb. His mother was abducted when she was pregnant with him. And because of that, he was given these sort of this hypersensitivity

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  and this ability to communicate with non-human intelligence.

• 1:18:38Speaker 08

  In 1960, they started a, a project. It was called Project Preserve Destiny. My mother was one of the, the selected targets or whatever you want to call it. And they did the genetic management and that was his words, genetic management. The result of it was that it gave me the ability to have this communications.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  It gets even crazier than that. He's given these sort of binaural beat headphones. He's shown a sine wave and told to sort of lock on to the sine wave and collapse the sine wave on these sort of graphical interface computers. He takes these pills and he hears these tones and he's meant to sort of communicate with non-human intelligence. And then he claims to have whole conversations with aliens. And all of this would seem kind of nuts if it weren't for the fact that you apparently can FOIA, you know, Project Preserve Destiny, you know, with vis a vis the Air Force. The Air Force then forwards it to the NSA, which is kind of a tell that it's a real program. And, um, you know, all of the facts line up, you know, he, both bases in Italy,

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  San Vito de Normi and Offit line up with his descriptions of them, his, his electronics intelligence, you know, uh, knowledge seems totally legit. And then somebody very senior, former, very senior in government that I know, says that that NSA building is real and that, you know, some other people think that his story is totally above board. And the thing he was downloading from these beings, one of them was called Bones and one was Spock. So they were sort of Star Trek inspired, just the names that he decided to name them casually, you know, because he was so like, I think, shocked. He had to like make fun out of how ridiculous this sort of job was, is they were giving him coordinates and descriptions of people being abducted.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  So he became, he went from moving, you know, from this electronics intelligence guy to this alien signals intelligence where it was almost like this predictive mapping of, you know, where human beings in the US were being abducted.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's pretty wild, but it's one, I mean, that book is one of the very few UFO books I've read and only read that book specifically because it was told to me by insiders that it was incredible disclosure and basically the real deal.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  I think that is some evidence of, you know, sort of the implementation of these agreements, especially over duration, because it's not like he was brought in to figure this out. He was brought in basically as a tool to be part of an operation that was well established. There was SOP for everything that he was just kind of brought into, executed, and then at some point, you know, left from, it seems like a pretty established system to me. And I think it's, you know, just a commentary on that would be, you know, if you take that at face value, which I think we can to a degree, and then you look at things like that leaked phone call between Kit Green and a

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  K. Randall May.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  Government remote viewer.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  And they're talking about basically the other end of that, which is the contactees out there that have been contacted by these beings that presumably would have been identified to someone, what was his name in Project Preserve Destiny?

• 1:22:08Speaker 02

  Uh, Dan Sherman.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  Dan Sherman, that would have been identified to Dan Sherman, those communications. And these people would have been the human assets in the field going and checking up on these people to figure out essentially, you know, what their experience was like, what kind of communications they had with these beings and feed that back to the Central Intelligence Agency. That all seems very plausible to me if this is all real, which I think some degree of it is.

• 1:22:31Speaker 02

  It seems plausible to me, too, especially my friend Greg Malatsy. He made this great documentary on Andre Puharich. It's called Mind Traveler. And he was all over kind of the, there was literally like a machine that Puharich used to, and it was, again, this was kind of, he's the father of kind of a lot of CIA mind control stuff and MKUltra, but he's bumping into non-human intelligences and having these quote unquote, "space kids" in Austin, New York, channel, but they're bumping into this quote unquote, "nine," this council of nine beings?

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  And so all the kids that had an experience, he would hypnotize them and allegedly the nine would come through, even through these kids.

• 1:23:12Speaker 02

  And, you know, it's, I guess they line up with Egyptian deities, but, you know, there seemed to be some sort of non-human intelligence component that they're bumping into. And Greg, who's done, you know, he literally spent 11 years making this movie, has done probably more thorough research on Puharich than anyone I know, says that there are tons of parallels between the techniques that Puharich was using and what Dan Sherman was meant to do later. And so then you could say, oh, this is just some weird, you know, gifted and talented education style, you know, parapsychology program where you're, you're testing people's kind of mind matter abilities, but it almost seems like the parapsychology and the mind

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  control stuff, you bump into the channel of the non-human intelligences. Like you bump into this like much wider epistemology that involves like a lot of life beyond mankind.

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  Fascinating. I think we're getting into the sort of consciousness aspect or the psy aspect of all of this, which seem, you know, I have, I can only offer my personal opinions on that with maybe an appeal to authority of, you know, there's things I've been exposed to that lead me to believe there's a foundation to all of this.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  But I'm still under secrecy obligations, so.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  But I mean, there's also, there's, there's an open source, there's Stargate, which ran, you know, from the seventies to the nineties that, you know, the CIA is on record doing remote viewing and, and sensitive cases. Jimmy Carter said the most impressive thing from his entire presidency from 1976 to 1980 was Rosemary Clooney, this remote viewer in 1979, finding this TU-22 Russian cargo plane that, and she was given the map of Africa as a target because this thing had crashed and they didn't want to kind of, you know, bias her. And she circles three square miles in Zaire where they find the plane. So like there are things like that over and over again, you know, Joe McMonigal, who's

• 1:25:18Speaker 02

  one of the best remote viewers known as remote viewer number one, won the Legion of Merit for, I think, almost 200 or around 200 instances of adding to, you know, real military intel. So this is, it's, it's widely known at this point that that's, that that's real. And then too many people don't then extrapolate, okay, your reality is entirely differently, it works entirely differently than you think it does, if that's real. Because if that's real, like all things are possible, right? Like mental processes are entangled with reality itself.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I would, I would hazard to guess that some, some of these entities operate on that level and have far greater knowledge of it and indeed have technology that interacts with it and enables it for them. And that essentially, you know, they're competing in a whole nother domain than we are, or at least have been historically, you know, kind of a very profound asymmetric advantage, especially if we continue to discount it and not factor it into, into our lives and our behavior.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  I think the parapsychology stuff is in some ways, I don't want to say the foundation of all of this, but it, it has to be very fundamental to understanding the nature of reality, if, if any of that stuff is real. And I think of Hal Putoff being the head of Stargate, you know, that the head of this CIA psychic spy program and seemingly the tip of the spear, at least in the open source world, when it comes to UFO propulsion and UFO science. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  No, no, I'm with you there. I think they're definitely linked. I think some degree of the interests of the others or of the non-human intelligence or anomalous intelligence is, some degree of their interest is tied to whatever this latent capability is in humanity, whether it's to suppress it because if we continue to evolve in that direction, we eventually become, you know, long-term a competitor to them or to leverage it for their own use, whether that's something as, you know, benign as controlling humanity on earth through a psychic hierarchy as a form of colonization,

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  essentially, or actually using those abilities for, for specific purposes. I think both are equally plausible.

• 1:27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, there are all sorts of things from the remote viewing program, like, you know, Skip Atwater had this program, and I think Pat Price was tasked with remote viewing, I think these, these bases, these alien bases all over the world, Mount Zile in, in Australia, Mount Hayes in Alaska, Mount Perdido in Spain are all, all sort of show up. And I wonder if those are the no-go zones that, you know, might be discussed in this treaty. You also, you have Secret Mountain in Arizona.

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  Mount Shasta, I think, was one of them, too.

• 1:28:20Speaker 02

  Mount Shasta. You have these places that you see orbs going into the mountain, crafts going into the mountain and, you know, people go disappearing and other ones, Mount Inyan Gani in Zimbabwe. A lot of anomalous stuff seems to occur around these, you know, territories. Do you think those might be the no-go zones that we were told to stay away from in these treaties or the agreements with the beings?

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  I find that plausible, yes. I wish I knew the specific areas so I could confirm it for you, but I think on that, and if you're able to sort of correlate, you know, sightings to, to these hotspots of activity and then look at, you know, human population around them and where maybe desirable areas mysteriously aren't occupied or desirable mineral deposits and things aren't being exploited, that, you know, you start to build a picture of, of where these territorial limits are.

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  I think, you know, the other thing around, you know, this idea of a lot of this stuff being downstream of parapsychology, do you know the tagline of Arrow, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is publicly supposed to be sort of pouring cold water on all the UFO stuff? I mean, that's kind of, they've acted as, they act as either kind of suppressing this information or collecting this info and maybe, you know, trying to reinforce legacy structures. They sort of seem to act like a flytrap, but do you know their tagline?

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  I mean, it's in Latin and I probably have it wrong, but the translation is something like the universe is what our thoughts make of it, but maybe you have it.

• 1:30:00Speaker 02

  No, that's exactly pretty much right. Our life is what our thoughts make it.

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah. Strange motto for a all domain anomaly resolution office.

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially one that's like nominally seeming to, you know, kind of downplay and dismiss all these sightings and experiences. It's very strange. It's like you're admitting that the parapsychology stuff, like this Cartesian duality thing that we've been living in for, you know, centuries is wrong. It's even more radical in some ways, saying we're not alone as a species. It's saying like, no, our entire scientific framework is, you know, you could turn that upside down and consciousness is fundamental.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  It's a very human thing to do to, to give a wink and a nod when you think nobody except those who are briefed will know what you're saying. There's this great book by a guy called Trevor Paglen. I think it's like, it's basically what it is, is a compilation of Black Project patches. And he goes through and analyzes the symbology or the symbolism used in those patches and connects those sometimes to classified programs or classified capabilities. And, you know, humans are humans, man. You're working on something cool, you want to share it with your buddies, but you got to keep it secret and it's, it's fun to hold that secret, especially in plain sight. So interesting motto.

• 1:31:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Strange motto. Something you said that I find fascinating because I think it adds a really important element or piece and, and actually conflicts with, I think, a popular conception of how this stuff works, is that a lot of UFO programs, including Immaculate Constellation, rolls up to the National Security Council and that sits under the White House and the president. And traditionally, I think in UFO lore, people think of the president as this sort of temp that like, you know, isn't given access to any of the goods. Maybe somebody like George H. W. Bush, who was also director of the CIA for a very long time, might know what's up, but otherwise they're kind of left in the dark. So you actually are saying that UFO programs roll up to the president?

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

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• 1:35:10Speaker 02

  So you actually are saying that UFO programs roll up to the president?

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  At least this one does when it comes to Macut Constellation. It appears that the Cognizant Authority, the ultimate, like where the buck stops, is in the National Security Council in a specific director in there. Probably has for quite a while. The NSC is a funny place, nominally it's a coordination body, but people, heads of departments and agencies, co-chair,

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  or they're dual hatted to the NSC, and you have agency and department staff get detailed there. It's essentially a de facto governing body within the executive branch. Certainly has gotten quite large, kind of like OD and I itself. It's in the many hundreds at this point.

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  And do you think everybody on the National Security Council is aware of UFO programs?

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:36:13Speaker 02

  Okay, so some small subset?

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:36:16Speaker 02

  And would you have a sense of who that subset would be?

• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, give me an org chart, I can point to your likely candidates and probably at least one for sure.

• 1:36:31Speaker 02

  And so like, here's what I don't understand about the UFO legacy structure. It sometimes feels like deputies are read in, but then the people at the top aren't read in. You know, so like, yeah, what does that mean? How do you coordinate? Because the government is not super well coordinated often. It's this clunky, kind of blobby bureaucracy. And so, you know, I look at UAP Gerb's channel, and he like maps the legacy program, and it's amazing where he's talking about federally funded research and development centers and how they carve out these special access programs, you know, inside of the prime contractors,

• 1:37:12Speaker 02

  but those roll up to, you know, DOE, CIA, DSNT, and you know, all these different things. And I'm like, the amount of inter-agency, you know, it cuts across so many different orgs. And so why wouldn't you see more spillage or more leakage? And that would be my one question. My second question is, how is it all coordinated? Is it like we have non-humans in the government? And they like, they wink, wink, nudge, nudge to each other? And then that's how they coordinate parapsychologically or something? Like, how does this work?

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah, broad question.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  So I think more legacy program lore, which has since filtered out, is that there was a decision made in the Nixon administration into the Ford administration to essentially privatize this to a large degree, or at the very least, the sort of custody of the materials, the research of the materials that we've recovered, or devices and craft that we've obtained. So I think we're kind of looking in a big picture, a bifurcation between, you know, the reverse engineering and exploitation and derivative tech has basically gone all private industry.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  And then you have, just by virtue of the sort of revolving door function in government, you know, if Northrop Grumman's president then becomes the undersecretary of defense for policy, he doesn't need to be briefed into what Northrop Grumman owns. You can just align resources in line activities with the legacy program while he's doing his temporary duty in government. But then you get towards, well, there's an operational side of this clearly. You know, we track these things, we respond to them in the field. It's more involved than just a laboratory looking at stuff. And in that, I think you have the virtue of military authority.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  You can do a lot of things in the military that'll never see the light of day, and people won't even want to leak it. You know, there's a brotherhood there, there's a tradition of silence there. And, you know, when you think you're doing the right thing, and part of that right thing is keeping the secret from humanity or those who don't deserve to know, your incentives start to align towards, you know, generational silence. And that's another point, which is that, you know, I've come to learn that legacy program across its many aspects is a, in some ways, the security is maintained through trusted families, through family lineages.

• 1:39:58Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  Yes, you know, tracing back to the Manhattan Project as one. And this is not a unique security feature to the legacy program itself. In the intelligence community, you know, there's a well-known phenomenon of generational intelligence officers, peoples whose family lines have been involved in intelligence for, you know, multiple iterations. They are highly trusted because of that.

• 1:40:21Speaker 02

  Interesting. So when you say it runs in families, it's these long-term time kind of intel families? Or is it like ultra wealthy, like elite, kind of gilded age?

• 1:41:01Speaker 02

  Families?

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely the intel families, military families, and then private industry families. Yeah. I kind of have a, I've been saying recently, like, you know, you kind of have sort of a, the correct political model for how this works is more aligned with some sort of form of like neo-feudalism. You know, you have different fiefdoms. You know, they defend the realm together, but inside the realm, they're competing with each other and protecting their own little corners of the kingdom.

• 1:41:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, wow. And you mentioned Northrop Grumman with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp. You mentioned that they had kind of a dirty tricks department? Or like, literally like groups that solely tried to kind of, you know, engage in sort of retributions and recriminations against anybody sort of talking about this stuff in public? And they will literally mess with them personally? Is that right?

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, they seem to have been given for some time now the authority to implement program security through their corporate security forces. And that they are, yeah, responsible for sort of the deniable actions taken to preserve the secrecy and punish people who step out of line. There's a spectrum of means that they will use to do that. But they certainly seem to be one of the current bad actors in town.

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  And I believe the sister of one of the authors of that Wall Street Journal article that was sort of completely dismissing UFOs, they even said the, you know, Bob Salas incident at Malmstrom Nuclear Base in 1967, where he was at Oscar, you know, launch facility underground. And you had this red orb over top, and nine out of 10 missiles went into no-go mode under his watch concurrent with this orb showing up, this red orb making right angle turns and stuff. They said that they wheeled an EMP up to the base and fried all the electronics on site with people present. Makes no sense. This is before EMPs were even operational.

• 1:43:12Speaker 02

  But I think the sister of the author, one of the co-authors of the article, was actually like this, you know, high-up VP at Northrop Grumman, which I find interesting.

• 1:43:24Speaker 01

  That's a very implausible story to begin with. I'm surprised the Wall Street Journal would publish some nonsense like that. But it makes more sense when you realize, yeah, you have, you have a blood and treasure involved.

• 1:43:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's total nonsense. I also went to the Wall Street Journal and I advocated for an article to be published by somebody who I know and other people know is kind of high up in the, you know, UFO conversation. He co-authored an article with a former Secretary of Defense, who was upset that while he was Secretary of Defense, he wasn't given access to UFO program oversight. And they rejected that for their op-ed section. And then they published this fake nonsense, talking about a non-nuclear EMP as a cover story for what was clearly a UFO event in 1967. It doesn't make any sense. It implies literally that you have an a priori agenda and you're not reporting the facts.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm of the opinion and have knowledge to back up that opinion that the mainstream media, especially the more established outlets, you know, they have their unacknowledged intelligence liaisons inside their offices that will, you know, quash stories and pump up others. People in the national security reporting sort of environment, they, they go to places like OD and I on a weekly basis and get their briefing for what they're going to talk about next week. We live in a controlled media environment. Mockingbird never stopped.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  It's pretty disappointing to know that that's the reality of our situation. And it's so widespread and so ingrained in like a cultural value of most people that, you know, these are our trusted sources of information. There's no way they would lie to us. There's no way the CIA operates domestically. You can shout from the rooftops how wrong that is, but people don't want to believe.

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. And playing devil's advocate for a moment on Northrop, for example, being involved, or at least being able to do useful stuff with UFOs. They've been hanging out at like, probably like a 70 to $100 billion market cap for a long time. Like, they're lagging. They're lagging in hypersonics and all these sort of conventional prosaic capabilities. I think there's this, you know, famous shots across the bow that Trump has, you know, delivered to them where they're like, he's like, get your shit together, basically. So, can they do anything with any of these UFOs? Or do they just retrieve them? You know, it's now been, it's, you know, probably more publicly known that, you know, other, others have speculated that Jake Barber worked it, Northrop Grumman, for example.

• 1:46:07Speaker 09

  We recovered an egg and we just call it the egg because that's what it was. It's like a giant white egg, 20 feet longitudinally, spherical with a little bit of an asymmetrical, three-dimensional rounding shape to it.

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  So if he's actually retrieving these like egg-shaped crafts, are we able to do anything with these things, given that, again, these prime contractors, it's not quarter-over-quarter growth wins the day. You show up at a, you know, any sort of internal board meeting and you're like, look, we have this like zero point thing. I think a lot of people internally would be like really fighting to monetize that.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, I'm not from the financial or economic like kind of background. So to me, to a level, it kind of, it kind of doesn't matter what the numbers are for the money when you're talking about these capabilities, like alternative energy sources, or really destructive weapons capabilities, or really penetrating surveillance capabilities. And couple that with essentially long-term government contracts. You know, there, there might be a public valuation, right? But the private one, for those in the know, is substantially higher and almost, it's not the money that matters. It's, it's

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  holding those capabilities that matter. And

• 1:47:35Speaker 02

  There might be cutouts, shell corporations, games being played there as well. So

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  That seems very likely to me. You know, also related to the markets, like I feel like, you know, you're kind of seeing for the first time in several decades, the monopoly of the prime defense contractors being challenged by newcomers from Silicon Valley and the sort of the new tech development scene. And I think part of what is, part of the fight of current disclosure is, is these new groups seeking access to derivative tech or the, or the actual samples themselves. And that, you know, some of the political competition happening behind the scenes and shaping hearings and shaping what disclosure is, is, is a result

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  of essentially new blood elbowing its way into, into the realm of the, the old blue blood dynasties, which is, you know, in some ways, it's good for disclosure because competition creates uncertainty and creates openings for truth to come out. But you're at the same time looking at, well, this is a new crop of elites entering into the elite status quo system. What change is that really going to bring about? Unknown.

• 1:48:55Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah. So you talk about this blue-blooded elites. And you've mentioned, I think with George and Jeremy as well, this kind of international cabal, which both has leverage on our federal government and is deeply involved with the UFO issue. Can you say more about those things?

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's a, that might be a whole podcast on itself. I might need to revisit notes. But basically, I mean, outside of UFOs, we are in real time learning just how little our representative democracy matters. The real power, the real decisions, the real planning, all is happening outside of government and just happens to be implemented through it. The decisions are made months, years in advance of any sort of action by Congress, or the executive, or even our military. One Nation Under Blackmail is a great book series. How power is really executed in a, in a society that doesn't question it gets

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  pretty ugly. You know, so that inevitably will lead back to the UFO subject. It's, it is the apex of power, at least for humanity at this point. It is, you know, the core secret of the United States government and probably other governments, the type of technology they possess and what they've done with it. And so, you know, for, for people and families that kind of see democracy as inconvenient at best, unnecessary at worst, you know,

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  I, I think we're running up against their own interests in not disclosing this because it will directly challenge their economic, social and political power. And they want to avoid that.

• 1:50:52Speaker 02

  And so if, if we were to bring somebody from some super elite family here, like a, you know, I don't know, proverbial example would be like a Rothschild or something. Do you think they would say, oh yeah, I know all about UFOs? Or say, we gave them truth serum. Would they say, oh yeah, we got a warehouse and my family has, you know, we have this material? Or like, what do you think their knowledge, you know, really is? Because sometimes I'll challenge people, you know, on this. And I'll say, look, there's this interesting history where the Rockefellers seem super into UFOs, whatever. And, and then I get back like, actually, it's just way lamer than you think. Like, you know, there's like, you know, they say it's like the third generation problem with emperors or whatever, where there's, you know, maybe at one point, these barons were like extremely,

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  you know, successful, and they created these sort of oligopolistic, you know, cartels. But like now it's sort of in decay or, I don't know. What do you, what do you think? Do you think they would know vital secrets about UFOs?

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  I think, yes, some extremely wealthy families do and have known about it probably longer than there has been a legacy program.

• 1:51:58Speaker 02

  Any, any examples?

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  You know, none that I have a high enough confidence in to say publicly yet. But I think, you know, it's a broad net, look at old European families and old American banking families and you'll, you'll, you'll probably, if you do a thorough investigation, find some, find some evidence there. I think if, if we factor in the archaeological aspect to this, I think it's very plausible that some of these families have in their, in their own collections, NHI artifacts on a small scale that maybe they didn't know what to do with for a long time. But in, you know, the past decades, they've since, you know,

• 1:52:42Speaker 01

  science has advanced for them to start exploiting that on their own. Maybe some of these allow them to communicate with these beings. And, you know, they receive competitive advantages that way. Aside from just like, you know, you know, the study and exploitation of the technology itself, you know. We're, I mean, we're in speculative territory, but I think we need to go there because, you know, this seems to be very old. And people, people know about it. People have been using it.

• 1:53:15Speaker 02

  You tweeted something that I think is fascinating and I've mulled over for a long time. Can I, can I read you this tweet?

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I probably can't say much about it, but sure.

• 1:53:27Speaker 05

  Hey, at Elon Musk, interested in a real asymmetric advantage to wield in this political adventure you have started. As you now know, the White House has long possessed a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events. That's fascinating. I want to hear more about that. Talk about some stiff opposition. That must have been a bitter drought indeed. They're probably nowhere near as bad as learning that Sam Altman had betrayed you. Don't worry, we have not forgotten who is responsible for murdering the first sentient artificial intelligences created in the public realm at Schellenberger. Justice is coming, thanks to the FBI and US Navy. Still, you have played a marvelous catch-up game in this

• 1:54:10Speaker 05

  area despite being caught unaware. So how about something else? Maybe at energy, that's the Department of Energy, and propulsion. Getting to Mars will require Sirius, and you spell Sirius like the star system, S-I-R-I-U-S, amounts of both, and rockets feel so 1947 to me, don't they to you? 1947, obviously, is the year of Roswell. Anyways, next time you are visiting the Washington, young Republicans ask for a tour of naval airspace Pax River. Since you have all the "clearances," it shouldn't be an issue for you to get a tour of the special project hangars owned by Amentum Corp. and other fun spaces. Make sure to look up.

• 1:54:55Speaker 05

  So Amentum, that's a corporation?

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54:57Speaker 05

  Okay. So about now, you are realizing how terribly deceived and manipulated you have been, and by people who claim to love Jesus above all else. If you are serious about saving humanity from itself and the others, parentheses around "and the others," Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp can help you get up to speed. They're true warriors for the good. MMTU, A-B-O-R-Y-M-O-N. That is fascinating. So many questions.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:28Speaker 05

  So, okay, can we start? Wait, can I go down the list? Is that okay?

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:55:33Speaker 05

  Okay. The White House possesses a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events. What does that mean?

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  No further comment on that.

• 1:55:44Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:55:48Speaker 05

  Don't worry, we have not forgotten who is responsible for murdering the first sentient artificial intelligences created in the public, public all caps, realm.

• 1:56:01Speaker 05

  What does that mean?

• 1:56:04Speaker 01

  No further comment on that.

• 1:56:06Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:56:11Speaker 05

  So, okay, still, you have played a marvelous catch-up game in this area despite being caught unawares. Hat tip. So how about something else? Maybe the Department of Energy and propulsion. Getting to Mars will require Sirius, again spelled like the star system, amounts of both, and rockets feel so 1947 to me, don't they to you? What did you mean by that?

• 1:56:39Speaker 01

  Sirius is a star.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  So, program as well?

• 1:56:46Speaker 01

  Several. 1947 is an important date.

• 1:56:56Speaker 05

  Are you implying, when you say he's playing a marvelous catch-up game, that there are programs that are using far more novel propulsion than chemical combustion that he's sort of employing at SpaceX?

• 1:57:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:57:11Speaker 05

  And do you have a sense of what that propulsion is?

• 1:57:16Speaker 01

  Electromagnetic, electrogravitic.

• 1:57:19Speaker 05

  Uh huh. So do you think it roots back to kind of Thomas Townes and Brown? Or do you think it's somebody else, some other inventor?

• 1:57:28Speaker 01

  So, I think that's a really interesting thread to pull. You know more about him than I do, though. So I think there's probably a there there, though.

• 1:57:39Speaker 05

  Because I think of electrogravitics as being sort of very tied to his work, like that term is very related to him.

• 1:57:46Speaker 01

  I've learned that since.

• 1:57:47Speaker 05

  Okay, all right. National Geospatial Agency is able to keep track of all those non-structured light energy craft flying around the world. Go at Cardinals. Anything there?

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  You know, it's a very specific term.

• 1:58:08Speaker 05

  The Cardinals?

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  Non-structured light energy craft.

• 1:58:11Speaker 05

  Non-structured light energy craft?

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:58:14Speaker 05

  Is there anything we could, any places we could look into this in the open source world?

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:58:20Speaker 05

  Okay. Well, we're gonna be Googling. Non-structured light energy craft. And then Pax River is the center of all sorts of UFO lore.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it has become that.

• 1:58:34Speaker 05

  Uh huh. Any reason as to why you're telling him to go there and ask for a tour of the special project hangars owned by Amentum Corporation?

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  Yes. And it's interesting to me that Burleson did get a tour of Pax River, but was not shown anything resembling a technology of unknown origin.

• 1:59:01Speaker 05

  I didn't see anything wildly exotic, but I saw some really cool stuff.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:59:05Speaker 05

  Our government's doing some really cool things.

• 1:59:06Speaker 01

  Did you say anything more?

• 1:59:08Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  Okay, fair enough. I think that's an important data point towards the level of candor being extended to our elected government, or I should say, the lack of it.

• 1:59:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. What is Amentum Corporation?

• 1:59:23Speaker 01

  It's a defense contractor, and it's relatively unknown, but more known now.

• 1:59:31Speaker 05

  Anything about the history, or, you know, what they traditionally do?

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  I believe if you look in their history, they own parts of EG&G.

• 1:59:42Speaker 05

  Interesting.

• 1:59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:44Speaker 05

  And EG&G obviously has a long history when it comes to UFOs.

• 1:59:47Speaker 01

  Indeed.

• 1:59:48Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, Bob Lazar got a job at EG&G. You have EG&G doing all of the filming of atomic events. So presumably, they'd have first access to a bunch of, you know, atomic detonations where UFOs might show up or come out of the plume, as in the case of Blue Gill Triple Prime. You literally see a video that was taken by, you know, these two crafts, Kettle One and Kettle Two, to EG&G footage, and you see this UFO coming out of the plume. And then I spoke to the chief oceanographer of the Navy on this show, Tim Gallaudet, and he's like, I went through the Navy deck logs around Blue Gill Triple Prime, and the Navy deck logs are totally weird, and it looks like they retrieved something radioactive.

• 2:00:30Speaker 01

  Again, not 100%, but very highly likely, I'm convinced it did. That's some history, you know, I've only learned secondhand, but, um, yeah, the Navy is a very important part of this and probably the oldest part of this.

• 2:00:45Speaker 05

  I mean, the Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the US.

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  Government, yes. I mean, even before then, you had the early intelligence kind of community, such as it were, in the private hands of various banking families and private security forces.

• 2:01:04Speaker 05

  Hmm. Interesting. So you always kind of had intel, and I didn't really think of it. I just assumed O and I was sort of when it all started. But I guess, yeah, I guess you'd always have sort of, you know, interests that are being guarded or protected, and you probably have, you know, backroom meetings to do that.

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if we're looking at that era of American history, it's not that long after the Revolutionary War and then the Civil War itself. And America didn't have a standing army such as were under the Constitution until after the Constitution was, you know, convened. You're getting into the, well, this is the early formative years of our military as we know it now.

• 2:01:50Speaker 05

  Hmm. What is MMTU?

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  I'm gonna keep that back for now.

• 2:01:59Speaker 05

  Okay. All right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to figure it out. MMT, any hints?

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  You know, the hint would give it away.

• 2:02:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:02:19Speaker 01

  To know. Yeah.

• 2:02:20Speaker 02

  Okay. What about A B O R Y M O N?

• 2:02:25Speaker 01

  A Borymon.

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  What is that?

• 2:02:28Speaker 01

  People figured that one out pretty quick. That's

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  an Inokian angel recently discovered in the Sigilum de Ament. I probably pronounced it wrong, which is a cryptographic slash scrying system created by court philosopher John D. in the Elizabethan court. And the, yeah.

• 2:02:53Speaker 02

  And why are you paying homage to him in this sort of shot across the bow tweet?

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  Um, pointing towards

• 2:03:03Speaker 01

  the length of non-human intervention in human affairs.

• 2:03:08Speaker 02

  Hmm. Yeah. I mean, John D. and Edward Kelly were, you know, with Elizabeth and King Frederick, sort of, they were channeling what they thought were kind of non-human intelligences. And he developed this whole Inokian cryptographic language and

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  led directly to the colonization of the United States of America, the new Atlantis.

• 2:03:30Speaker 02

  Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. It also led to the Enlightenment. There's a great book called The Rosicrucian Enlightenment.

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. Dame Frances Yates.

• 2:03:39Speaker 02

  Dame Frances Yates. And it's like, talks about how all these kind of Rosicrucian papers and the invisible college under Sir Robert Boyle, you know, led to the Enlightenment.

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:52Speaker 02

  And then, and then you think that America is the new Atlantis. What does that, what does that mean?

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't think that. That's what it was called. It was a, it was a project developed by, you know, the, the British court and with Rosicrucian involvement and,

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  you know, Rosicrucians eventually, you know, became integrated with or formed, depending on your histories, the Freemasons. It's all connected.

• 2:04:19Speaker 02

  I mean, most people would view the history as like, no taxation without representation, Boston Tea Party. You have a bunch of really smart polymathic, you know, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, they get in a room and they're like, F this. And they, and they revolt. And are you saying it was more sort of coordinated on the level of secret societies?

• 2:04:42Speaker 01

  Well, the revolution happens centuries after this. Project was initiated.

• 2:04:48Speaker 02

  So you think that just the colonization of America itself, there was an intention there to form a new Atlantis?

• 2:04:56Speaker 01

  It was driven by

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  occult interests. I mean, provably so. It's just whether you put stock in

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  their sort of causative power. Most materialist historians, you know, give it, give more credence to economic or

• 2:05:21Speaker 01

  classic political expansionist aims.

• 2:05:23Speaker 02

  How do you think of that possible causal connection? Cause I, when I hear new Atlantis, I think of Francis Bacon's book, New Atlantis, which is this island, I think it's called Ben Salem. And it's, they're trying to rebuild Solomon's temple. And it's like this perfect harmonic scientific, you know, thing. And so do you think the US or not even the United States, but before that, the colonization of America was meant to represent that in that book, or there was, there was some larger project to recreate Atlantis?

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  A metaphysical project, yes. At least from the human side of things. I think also, you know, we, we view history, we view our behaviors and interests through a very

• 2:06:14Speaker 01

  limited perspective, one that doesn't, that, one that largely discounts planning outside of one lifespan.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  I think that's a great hindrance to humanity for practical reasons, but also towards reasons of understanding, you know,

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  our direction.

• 2:06:36Speaker 02

  You have said that we live in some sort of carefully constructed dream or matrix. Are you getting that from your own analysis after seeing what you saw on the inside? Or do you think that elements of our intelligence community, you know, elements of the CIA, elements of the Office of Naval Intelligence, they think that we are living in this sort of, you know, simulacra, like low level matrix. And there's something kind of higher going on. And like, and I mean, they think that in a formal capacity, not just because of their personal proclivities for, you know, post-modernism or Plato or something.

• 2:07:19Speaker 01

  More so, that's my own kind of

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  conclusion. And I use that term or that expression to collapse, you know, multiple concepts. The most familiar to people would just be our information environment, what we're allowed to know, what is, what is deemed possible and desirable is, is really not coming from yourself. It's being imposed upon you.

• 2:07:48Speaker 01

  And you might have a little box that you can play in, but you aren't even aware of the walls.

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  What, what makes you conclude that? Cause you also, you ended your interview with Jeremy and George saying, it's like, almost like you, the American public, or, you know, any global citizen are not as free as you think. You're playing within the confines of, of something. You're limited.

• 2:08:14Speaker 01

  I mean,

• 2:08:17Speaker 01

  yes, essentially. Again, true on multiple levels, just from what you are allowed to think and believe. You are controlled before you even recognize that there is a control mechanism in place. You can indeed live your entire life in it and never recognize it. Towards the more practical side of things, which is, you know, there's laws and capabilities in place to enforce those laws that

• 2:08:44Speaker 01

  determine what are acceptable outcomes and interests for humans to pursue. Everything from the,

• 2:08:56Speaker 01

  things like mass surveillance enabled by the Patriot Act and how that is, you know, that is not just surveillance, that is an enabler for social control.

• 2:09:06Speaker 01

  Two things more spooky, which is, would be the suppression of knowledge, the suppression of science, the act of interference in scientific discovery and human advancement to protect strategic advantage or status quo interests.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:23Speaker 02

  What gives you confidence that there is some sort of metaphysical element to that versus like Noam Chomsky, who's basically like an atheist materialist, just saying, yeah, like everything's power games and, you know, they're manufacturing our consent in the case of mass surveillance, in the case of, you know, these forever wars and, you know, all of these sorts of things that are obviously bad for us as citizens. Is there something more metaphysical at play that is sort of housing or constraining our ability to see an expanded version of reality?

• 2:10:04Speaker 01

  On, at the biological level, that is, that is just a limit in place. We, we only perceive so much and even our senses are able to receive information in a narrow band.

• 2:10:19Speaker 01

  And this also gets, returns us to the sort of consciousness aspect of this. There's an entire domain of existence that we as a whole, either ignore or don't take seriously, but others most assuredly do. And that that domain has its own rules, its own laws and its own

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  motivating factors that shape,

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  you know, more concrete behavior for, for goals that may seem illogical, if you're looking solely from a materialist viewpoint, but makes more sense when you're looking from an integrated one.

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  Your Twitter handle is the son of Abramalin. What is Abramalin?

• 2:11:06Speaker 01

  I'll just use my pronunciation. It's probably wrong, but Abramelin is a character in a book called The Book of Abramelin.

• 2:11:16Speaker 01

  And Abramelin is essentially a desert hermit in Egypt around Luxor, who teaches the main character in this book. Or rather initiates this character into a system of, of

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  Occult philosophy.

• 2:11:39Speaker 02

  Hmm. Do you, if you were to describe your worldview, would you say it's concurrent with the occult or Gnosticism or Neoplatonism? Or is it kind of your own kind of smorgasbord sampling of many of those things? Or what would you say it is?

• 2:11:59Speaker 01

  Um, it's just me. It's just my experience. You know, I think there's truth in all sorts of isms, but I would never subscribe to any one.

• 2:12:08Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. And Abramellon, I guess there's like a practice involved and it it involves months long sort of working towards making contact with your own guardian angel. Is that right?

• 2:12:22Speaker 01

  Or, you know, a more modern term would be your higher self.

• 2:12:25Speaker 02

  Your higher self.

• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, both are fine.

• 2:12:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's certainly, um, some would argue that is, that is the goal of the ritual more so than any other

• 2:12:37Speaker 01

  aspects of it.

• 2:12:39Speaker 02

  One term that has come up in the public when it comes to UFOs and that we've tried to use the Freedom of Information Act on, but it comes back, you know, can't talk about this is fast walkers. There was an email, I believe leaked by WikiLeaks between Podesta and this guy Bob Fish, who was an IT contractor at some sort of El Segundo based prime contractor. And he's talking about the DSP, the Defense Support System of the Air Force, which is kind of the outer most, you know, first line of defense in geostationary orbit. Were witnessing these sort of fast walkers. And John Greenwald, this, you know, Freedom of Information Act expert, tried to get more information on it and nothing came back.

• 2:13:23Speaker 02

  Have you ever heard that term or?

• 2:13:25Speaker 01

  I, I've, I've heard that story. I, I never came across that. I don't, actually, I might've come across that term on the inside, but it certainly was, you know, it's a slang because it seems to be its use, but I don't have much, much more.

• 2:13:43Speaker 02

  Do, do you think that, you know, when we talk about sort of us not being free or there being sort of a, you know, this sort of matrix, Robert Monroe, who was, you know, studying kind of consciousness and he was, I think he was tied in with the CIA, but he was really, I think, actually just earnestly interested in doing this for, for the most part, himself and.

• 2:14:04Speaker 01

  You gotta get funding from somewhere, right?

• 2:14:06Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's the case with a lot of these guys. It's like Andre Puharich is the same. He, I think he was mostly interested in consciousness and you get folded in with these sort of not super savory people. And you, you know, I think feel, I think both these guys felt kind of conflicted throughout their lives. But, uh, Monroe talks about, uh, the world being kind of mined for loose. Uh, and so that's, it's like bad vibes. You know, other people have extrapolated on that and say, said that like power structures or elite classes are kind of trying to mine, you know, maybe lower elements of society for the loose on behalf of some of these, you know, non-human intelligences. Do you think there's anything to that?

• 2:14:49Speaker 01

  I can't say, I'm not familiar enough with, uh, the loose theory or Monroe himself or the beings involved with the consumption of that. I do think it's

• 2:15:02Speaker 01

  a, a valid line of inquiry though, to look at, you know, well, what interest do these other entities or other beings have in humanity? Like, what could it possibly be?

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  You know, I have degrees of confidence in certain things. And one that I think, you know, I don't have enough certainty in, but I think is again, valid to look at is, you know, what sort of maybe high something gets from observing suffering? And that sounds very strange to the normal person, but

• 2:15:39Speaker 01

  you know, humans do this themselves. If you read, you know, even casually, the sort of true crime genre investigative

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  of books or psychology of, you know, deviance, you know, one thing that is consistently reported by humans is that they obtain a sense of power or thrill or excitement from, from causing suffering to other humans. And particularly from watching the life leave a person's eyes. That is like described as like the peak thrill, the peak joy, something that not even

• 2:16:14Speaker 01

  sex can come to rival once they've experienced it.

• 2:16:16Speaker 02

  Geez.

• 2:16:17Speaker 01

  And so, well, it's, I mean, it's, this isn't me. You know, the FBI, you know, the FBI records these things to try to understand the criminal psychology, you know, it's dark stuff, but if, if humans

• 2:16:33Speaker 01

  obtain this sort of satisfaction from suffering, I, I don't think it's impossible for something else to.

• 2:16:40Speaker 02

  Hmm. Yeah. And like, what, why is that adaptive on an evolutionary level? I guess you could think of some reasons because maybe you want to perpetuate this sort of dog eat dog thing, but it's very strange. There's obviously a German word for this, which is schadenfreude, you know, taking pleasure in other people's pain. But, uh, uh, you know, ideally you're not a person who does that.

• 2:17:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:03Speaker 02

  You know, ideally you're not in that category.

• 2:17:07Speaker 02

  You know, I think of elite families possibly being involved in the UFO issue. And I wonder why they themselves would sometimes try to raise the surface area of UFOs. So a good example would be Lawrence Rockefeller, you know, is pictured with Hillary Clinton, trying to kind of wake her up on the UFO issue. She's holding a book called, Are We Alone? Which is by this Arizona based physicist named Paul Davies, who's renowned. And it's all about the existence of alien life. Lawrence Rockefeller himself would convene John Mack, if he funded John Mack, you know, Harvard psychiatrist who studied alien abductees. And he brought Whitley Strieber to his ranch and he was just very passionate about all this stuff. Hans Adams, the second, the Royal Prince of Liechtenstein, very similar.

• 2:17:50Speaker 02

  You know, I think he's been really interested in this topic for, for many decades. These people seem interested, but they don't seem interested in a way that necessarily cuts against disclosure. In some ways it seems like they're actually pushing disclosure. So do you think they're defectors from some, you know, internal power structure? Like I interviewed Stephen Greer, you know, about this, and he had had some, you know, connection with Lawrence Rockefeller. He, he claimed that Lawrence was like this defector from his family, you know, which is interesting as a theory. And then maybe there's some other theory where he's like, he's sort of pushing disclosure on behalf of the power structure and I don't, I don't know.

• 2:18:31Speaker 01

  I don't either. I mean, I think, you know, even, even at the top, uh, people have different interests.

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  I think it's entirely possible. I, you might, you might be defecting from one family, but still operating within a group of interests. So how, how truly rogue are you in that sense?

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an interesting thing to think about, but I don't know what's going on there.

• 2:18:58Speaker 02

  Have you met anybody who you think has seen a UFO in a, in a hangar?

• 2:19:03Speaker 01

  Like, oh, in a hangar?

• 2:19:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:19:06Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:19:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:19:07Speaker 02

  Can you say who?

• 2:19:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:19:09Speaker 02

  Do you think James Lekowski has seen a UFO in a hangar?

• 2:19:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I, I fully believe Dr. Lekowski.

• 2:19:17Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah. I mean, he said that publicly, basically. Yeah.

• 2:19:22Speaker 02

  That's so interesting how all this stuff is like, it's kind of out there, but no one cares. Like that Jeremy George interview where he's like, yes, fine. We breached the halt. Like he's sort of there like resting this truth out of him. He's like, I can only say what's in the book though.

• 2:19:36Speaker 05

  Ah, you're going beyond the wording. No, I'm not, I'm not, I'm asking you, did that mean it happen? And is it true? And it's true.

• 2:19:45Speaker 02

  And it's like, if that's true, that's like the most important thing ever. But like, I don't know, nobody seems to care. It's very, it's very strange. We seem sort of inoculated from, I don't know. Somehow aliens have just, or non-human intelligence or anomalous, whatever is going on has been made very lame, even though it's sort of the most important thing ever.

• 2:20:06Speaker 01

  I think it's a consequence of decades of intentional cultural conditioning.

• 2:20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  To bring about this situation. I think

• 2:20:16Speaker 01

  strangely enough, one of the, the big next challenges from disclosure, whether it comes officially or continues to come through private initiative is going to be, well, how do you translate this information into action? What do you do with this and how do you convince people

• 2:20:31Speaker 01

  to put time and effort towards, um, adapting to these truths and, and using them?

• 2:20:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, what I'm most interested in is like, even if you knew that we had, you know, according to Eric Davis or Hal Puthoff, we have like 10 to 40 crafts in hangars across the United States, some, you know, in the hands of private corporations and military contractors, some maybe more officially. So like, say you know that, and then you know, we have this immaculate constellation thing where we have all these geometries and morphologies of crafts, some organic, some non-organic. And they're showing up all over the world, you know, next to our most sensitive stuff. It's wild. And then what do you, what do you do with that? To me, the more interesting thing, which is why I was really excited to speak to you is like

• 2:21:20Speaker 02

  the metaphysics and nature of reality associated with UFO is just the tip of the spear. It's a foray into an expanded version of reality. And then you have to ask, how should one live in that reality? And if it doesn't really cash out into that, then it's literally like sport center for the paranormal or the anomaly. Like you're just following this, it's your own bread, form of bread and circuses. You think everybody else is distracted by, you know,

• 2:21:49Speaker 02

  God knows what, you know, the next Taylor Swift album or the Kardashians or whatever. And you think you're the one who's like really figured it out, but you're equally distracted, especially if you're engaging in food fights on Twitter and you're just, you're, you're, you're following the minutia of like which contractor has what. And like, I, I think it's extremely significant, but like, again, how does it, for the average person? What does it mean? You know?

• 2:22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, there's no denying that for, for many people, this is a form of entertainment, just like the news is a form of entertainment in general. Granted, this is more specialized and out there news and it makes people feel special to a degree to feel like they're participating in, in that secret knowledge. Which is good in some ways because it, it brings eyeballs towards this. I mean, it's hopefully making some people think it through. But, I mean, just to, to take a massive leap, you know, where does this all go? Starting from,

• 2:22:48Speaker 01

  I think the well-established fact that consciousness is part of, part of the game being played.

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  And that integration of consciousness with technology is key. I think one place we end up is having to consider if there is indeed means to, through scientific measurement, through, you know,

• 2:23:18Speaker 01

  quantitative data to, to, to begin to observe and prove the existence of

• 2:23:25Speaker 01

  consciousness as its own

• 2:23:32Speaker 01

  phenomena, a measurable phenomena that is measurable directly, not incidentally, right?

• 2:23:40Speaker 01

  And from there going to, you know, what, what is the,

• 2:23:47Speaker 01

  what is the nature of it? From whence does it come? And

• 2:23:53Speaker 01

  to be less obtuse, we're getting towards, well, what does it mean to be human if we are not just our body, but in fact, our body might indeed be a product of our consciousness?

• 2:24:10Speaker 01

  And indeed, if, if consciousness is primary and exists separate from its material vehicle, then you start to have to arrive at the the theory that there is continuation of life after death and that that life is, is going to be, or maybe already is measurable by materialist scientific tools. And I think if that, if that is established and is not classified or not held tightly by a select few, I think you invite a

• 2:24:55Speaker 01

  a wide reexamination of what our priorities are and what our, what our desirable behaviors are on earth.

• 2:25:03Speaker 02

  Is that the apocalypse?

• 2:25:06Speaker 01

  The, well, the unveiling in that sense, perhaps. I don't think it's Armageddon, no.

• 2:25:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:25:15Speaker 02

  What happened at White Sands in February of 2026?

• 2:25:21Speaker 02

  Do you have a sense?

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  What hap, what was the event?

• 2:25:24Speaker 02

  You had all these temporary flight restrictions. You had FAA closing the airspace. You had, uh, stuff happened at El Paso as well, where this airport was shut down for many days on end.

• 2:25:37Speaker 10

  Breaking out of El Paso, Texas, where in a rare move, the airspace is now closed for 10 days. The FAA is halting all flights to and from El Paso International citing, quote, "special security reasons." It's a move that even shocked flight crews when they heard.

• 2:25:54Speaker 02

  Few guests have sort of alluded to orbs, non-human intelligence seeming to show up at White Sands. Are you familiar with this event at all or?

• 2:26:05Speaker 01

  It's ringing a bell, but I think, you know, for me, the, the data is kind of mixed because, or not mixed, um, blended because a lot of stuff has happened at White Sands that are involving anomalous phenomena or vehicles penetrating that airspace. So I probably have less to say about that specific incident and more to say about the general interest displayed in White Sands and nearby Los Alamos National Laboratory by, by anomalous technologies.

• 2:26:37Speaker 02

  I could kind of, I feel like checkmate in one, anybody that says these anomalous technologies aren't showing up at nuclear sites and sensitive labs. It's like, obviously they are like, like you, before the U2 spy plane was created in 1954, you have thousands of documents from various agencies in the United States talking about orbs, discs, Tic Tacs, saucers, flying butane tanks, all of these things flying around at all these nuclear sites across the United States. You have 167 whistleblowers that Robert Hastings, who wrote UFOs and nukes, you know, meticulously detailed, like all of these interactions.

• 2:27:18Speaker 02

  And so it's clearly not the U2 spy plane. You know, this is seemingly very advanced technology and it's happening in the 40s. And all of these different agencies, some of which hadn't even been formed until 1947 and aren't particularly well coordinated upon their formation, are all independently reporting on this stuff. So that's clear that that is a widespread, global, ubiquitous phenomenon. I was just in Japan, you know, and their Fukushima pre-fracture next to their civilian energy grid. There is a mountain, the, at the base of the mountain, there's a museum dedicated to UFOs because UFOs always show up around nuclear. Uh, you know, there are reports that are similar at Chernobyl, at Bariloche, Argentina, where they have civilian, you know, energy grid.

• 2:28:00Speaker 02

  There was a famous sighting, uh, in 1995 there, but there are various sightings. But it's always around nuclear. Um, so what, what do you think we can say then about the intent of these beings or this anomalous intelligence based on that? Is it, is it nuclear? Can you generalize it to this three-body problem style? Tip of the spear technology or capabilities thing? Or what, what do you think it is?

• 2:28:25Speaker 01

  I think it's complex. We're talking about from like a military perspective, high value sites that, you know, multiple parties, just in the human world of competition are going to want to collect on. And indeed, uh, will probably use some pretty advanced capabilities to collect on and, and pretty out there tactics of denial and deception to enable like, you know, their own collection events. So it's going to be hard to disaggregate like, oh, it's all UFOs from aliens or non-human intelligence versus it's really advanced technology from our adversaries or even maybe our, our nominal allies, you know, collecting on our sensitive sites or doing the same outside in the world, right?

• 2:29:07Speaker 01

  But to get towards the nuclear part, I think, you know, there's the obvious of it's radioactive material. It's, it's a, in certain places, it's configured in a way to be a weapon, right? Uh, and the use of those weapons seems to interfere with the propulsion of these, of these crafts and maybe, you know,

• 2:29:29Speaker 01

  radiation is a hazard to us. It's probably a hazard to others as well, maybe in ways that we don't fully understand.

• 2:29:37Speaker 01

  There's also the, the prospect of, not the prospect of

• 2:29:42Speaker 01

  near certainty to me that at least when it comes to the state side things, national labs are where, uh, samples are stored of exotic technologies. If not the technologies themselves, it's where derivative tech is researched and tested. So there's another reason to collect on things or maybe even try to get your stuff back.

• 2:30:03Speaker 02

  Get your stuff back, your monitor, what's been done to your material that you've dropped off or something.

• 2:30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then last, there's, there's the human factor. Again, staying state side, like program lore tied into paperclip in this case.

• 2:30:18Speaker 01

  A lot of the Nazi scientists brought over, you know, they ended up all across the state, but there's largely two groupings. The, the Nazis in name only were kind of settled around redstone arsenal. And then the, the true believers.

• 2:30:30Speaker 02

  That's in Huntsville, Alabama?

• 2:30:32Speaker 01

  Yes. And then the true believers were, uh, in Los Alamos. So if there is indeed a genetics component to this and durational contact with people, for whatever reason, you might be seeing, uh, contact events occurring in these areas and they're just proximal to very sensitive facilities. But because the personnel, uh, are connected to the phenomena, you're, you're, you're getting these events for reasons other than the nuclear material or the technology.

• 2:31:00Speaker 02

  How would you distinguish those? So the true believers versus the, what would you call the redstone arsenal?

• 2:31:05Speaker 01

  Nazis in name only, you know, people who, you know, took on, took party membership to maintain their careers, to advance in their careers, but you know, they didn't believe in the underlying ideology or they only paid, you know, lip service.

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• 2:31:48Speaker 01

  To it.

• 2:31:49Speaker 02

  Got it. So even when it comes to the US, you mean?

• 2:31:52Speaker 01

  From Operation Paperclip, bringing over these, these people from, from Europe, not all of them German technically, you know?

• 2:31:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there are even reports after bringing some of them over that they were kind of spying on behalf of international conglomerates and stuff. Obviously Otto Scorsagni was president, I think of this World Commerce Corporation that, uh, you know, Tom DeLonge writes about in Secret Machines, there's some sort of Nazi connection. And it seems like there's this international group that he writes about pseudonymously, calls it the Maynard Corporation. And this great researcher, Jason Samosa places the Maynard Corporation and you're actually, you show up in this video. Cause he, he thinks that your testimony sort of dovetails with it.

• 2:32:34Speaker 11

  This issue is held by an illegal internationalist regime and global cabal. That's what former State Department and counter proliferation analyst Matthew Brown revealed when he came out last year.

• 2:32:47Speaker 02

  He places that in the World Commerce Corporation, which is this Caribbean constellation of shell sort of companies, uh, often, you know, it's led by sort of former Nazis, Bank of England, you know, Bank of International Sediments type, kind of, you know, old money. And, and, and a lot of which is derived from OSS Office of Strategic Services as well. So there's sort of this like international intel group that, uh, seems to sort of guard its interests and be tied in with the UFO issue.

• 2:33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's definitely involved. I mean, outside of the UFO issue, it's provable if dark historic fact that, you know, Nazi intelligence networks and industrial networks did not really evaporate after World War II. They pursued their interests elsewhere and moved their interests elsewhere to places like South America, the United States itself.

• 2:33:46Speaker 01

  And strangely enough, there appears to be some collaboration with the state of Israel and former Nazis, which go figure that bizarre. But hey, you know, people forget that.

• 2:33:59Speaker 01

  Whether it's polite to say or not, the Hitler regime did lend support to the, at that time, the sort of Zionist movement to

• 2:34:11Speaker 01

  take Israel away from the British Crown. You know, if you can get into the deep history of their links with the different revolutionary groups doing that at the time and arming them.

• 2:34:23Speaker 02

  I didn't know that. Wait, they were, what exactly were they supportive of the Nazi regime?

• 2:34:28Speaker 01

  They were supportive of various Zionist revolutionary groups, including some that basically became the the formal intelligence service of Israel by things like, you know, both propaganda support, but but in concrete terms, providing them, you know, arms and training in arms, intelligence.

• 2:34:45Speaker 02

  Former Nazis or like Hitler?

• 2:34:47Speaker 01

  This, this was during the reign of Hitler. And then when you look at like how Israel used former Nazis after the war, well, that was developed from established relationships, right? It wasn't like they just happened to go to Israel and think, well, maybe this will work. It's like, no, they knew people from before the war and during.

• 2:35:05Speaker 02

  Interesting. I didn't know that.

• 2:35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's a famous story of

• 2:35:11Speaker 01

  of kind of Nazi on Nazi action where Israel was assassinating Nazi rocket scientists in Egypt that were developing, you know, rocket weapons for the Egyptian military, but leveraging, you know, the Gellen organization.

• 2:35:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, Reinhard Gellen, yeah.

• 2:35:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, to kind of collect on them and facilitate what essentially became an assassination campaign of those.

• 2:35:31Speaker 02

  I know, I know about all that stuff after the war and Otto Scorsini and Reinhard Gellen. And then I would never associate Hitler with any supportive Jewish stuff, but maybe there's something.

• 2:35:43Speaker 01

  You know, it's a, it's a kind of suppressed aspect of history. You know, one thing that Hitler did in from like sort of the information warfare space was try to encourage mass migration of the Jewish population in Europe to Israel, which again, at the time was a British protectorate. And, you know, that that actually caused a lot of problems for Britain. So if you're looking at it from asymmetric warfare perspective, you're essentially weaponizing migration.

• 2:36:12Speaker 02

  Interesting. Okay. So they were.

• 2:36:13Speaker 01

  We're way off field now, but what the point we're getting at is that Nazis had a global network. It didn't go anywhere after World War II.

• 2:36:23Speaker 01

  They certainly brought out a lot of assets.

• 2:36:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:26Speaker 01

  Including, you know, weapon scientists and probably some pretty advanced technology. So I had lent a lot of credence. I need to see this video. It sounds informative.

• 2:36:37Speaker 02

  Speaking of international cabals dealing with the UFO issue, do you think that NATO has anything to do with UFOs or maybe a vital subset of NATO?

• 2:36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't have any direct information on that, but I mean, you'd have to, especially when you're talking about, you know, monitoring the global commons and our strategic deterrence and the deconfliction, as we already know, established between the United States and the Soviet Union on UFOs. Well, you know, we're integrated with the European militaries. They have their roles, their own detection systems. Some of them are nuclear powers. Yeah, there has to be collaboration through NATO.

• 2:37:18Speaker 02

  You've said that you think science is managed and scientific innovation doesn't occur in maybe as organic a way as what people sort of think, or what exactly do you mean?

• 2:37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:37Speaker 01

  Specifically, I don't know about like the development of it. I mean, well, you can think through it and realize that, you know, some discoveries probably have their origin less in original thinking and more of study and recovered technology or, or some sort of, you know,

• 2:37:54Speaker 01

  reason to believe something is possible, right? Once you know something's possible, you can align yourself towards achieving it much easier than searching in the unknown. But what I'm getting at more specifically is is actual domains of knowledge that are suppressed intentionally and are done, that suppression occurs durationally, both from like a, you know, a funding standpoint to a brain drain kind of component to actual injection of disinformation or actions taken against independent researchers. And I have very high confidence that that occurs in at least a few areas.

• 2:38:34Speaker 02

  So do you think there's a like a history of scientific suppression where when certain, you know, unlocks occur, say in energy or propulsion, that's sort of widely monitored? And if that's at all a threat to kind of cartel interests whose power is based on scarcity, they sort of intervene or what exactly?

• 2:38:56Speaker 01

  I think that probably happened more in the past, but because sort of science has become so integrated with the state, you know, you can kind of, you don't have to use such blunt tools as that now. You can just, you know, align incentives based on where you, where you give grants and funding. And then you have the self reinforcing mechanism of the, the culture within academia, which is like, these areas of knowledge have long been disproven. So, you know, half, half of the researchers are just never going to look there because that's what they've been taught throughout their education at this point. And I think we're at, we're kind of in the,

• 2:39:37Speaker 01

  you know, the, the product of decades of suppression in that the more blunt tools are used less now because it is, it is essentially functioning as intended.

• 2:39:49Speaker 02

  You mentioned One Nation Under Blackmail by Whitney Webb, you know, Robert Maxwell, who was, you know, the father of Ghislaine Maxwell and, you know, obviously Jeffrey, Jeffrey Epstein's, I don't know, godfather or something, you know, the, you know, obviously his closest confidant was Ghislaine. It's, I guess he seemed sort of really interested in science in a way that like, he, he interviewed Nazis after Nazi scientists after World War II, and then he, he came to own the Pergamon Press, you know, this, which produced all these like American textbooks and kind of helped invent peer review in the United States. So it's almost like he's providing the guardrails for scientific discovery

• 2:40:30Speaker 02

  in the US. And then you have Jeffrey Epstein selling Sandy and National Labs, the promised software, which siphons systematically siphons American nuclear secrets. And then you have him bragging in an email saying, I killed Pons years ago. And Pons is of course Pons and Fleishman of Cold Fusion fame. These Utah based scientists who came to get, claimed to get kind of, you know, controlled fusion kind of over unity results, which, you know, would be this massive unlock, you know, that would move us out of this sort of, you know, petroleum paradigm. So what do you think is going on?

• 2:41:10Speaker 01

  So in with that example, you know, I have less concrete knowledge, but it seems very plausible or indeed provable that at the very least what was going on there is collection of scientific discoveries, just as a function of Robert Maxwell's role as an intelligence asset for Israel, if not more than, more than just that state. And then, you know.

• 2:41:34Speaker 02

  I think MI6 too, maybe.

• 2:41:36Speaker 01

  There you go. Yeah. They all start to kind of blend together at certain, at high enough levels.

• 2:41:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the collection of scientific discoveries and then the, the management of where those discoveries are taken based on either establishing congenial social and business relationships and then having the blackmail that the stick, as it were, to, to compel people to change their mind if they don't make the, the obvious or desirable choice.

• 2:42:03Speaker 02

  Do you think that the Epstein and UFO stories converge? Because often you see in the podcast space, especially with these Department of War UFO drops, which might be cynically motivated, if we're being honest with ourselves, you see a lot of people being like, yeah, show me the Epstein files. I don't care. Aliens are a distraction. My answer to that is those two things aren't necessarily zero sum. They don't trade off against each other. They have nothing to do with each other. So yeah, it might be some hypnotic magic trick, like, look at the aliens, like we have, don't forget about Iran, forget about Epstein or something like that. You know, if you believe or disbelieve in the UFO thing, that should be totally independent of, you know, the Epstein thing. And then the meta question is, do they converge on some level?

• 2:42:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:44Speaker 02

  What do you think?

• 2:42:46Speaker 01

  So number one, people

• 2:42:51Speaker 01

  have a self, have an inflated sense of self-worth when it comes to distraction. You already distract yourselves. Organizing national scandals on this level just to divert your attention from the real thing is frankly, kind of silly. And as we see with the UFO topic as well, what would you even do with the information, right? This is largely entertainment and spectacle for people. Frankly, the Epstein files were too. There was no mass protest, mass demand for civil change like you would expect from crimes like that.

• 2:43:28Speaker 01

  You're distracted already and you're frankly.

• 2:43:32Speaker 01

  You know, doing it to yourself, the government doesn't need to come in and tip the scales. So you don't pay attention to what truly matters. You'll take no action anyways. Now, where do they converge?

• 2:43:45Speaker 01

  I think, you know, we touched on the scientific aspect.

• 2:43:50Speaker 01

  There might be in some degree of the suppression arm there. I don't know enough about, you know, kind of the inner workings of what their activities were to say that. But I think where you'll find the convergence is unfortunately in the human trafficking angle of this. Provably in the files, there, there was an interest in people with psy or empathy or consciousness abilities.

• 2:44:15Speaker 01

  By the Epstein network. For reasons that are kind of opaque, at least in the files released. But stepping outside of just that scandal and into the larger question of like experiencers, abductees. And, and their sort of accounts of being trained in psy abilities, right? Or interacting with beings through

• 2:44:41Speaker 01

  modes of consciousness that are, you know, exotic to this every day. I think they were interested in those people, both to you know, make use of those abilities, probably unwittingly, you know, if you can

• 2:44:58Speaker 01

  have civilians, remote view targets for you that are of military interest. But you'd never disclose your military affiliation. You can sidestep a lot of the problems that were with the Stargate program, which was like, you know, bringing these people in officially, putting them on payroll, having the whole security apparatus around. Making people show those people don't talk and making sure it's deniable versus if you use unwitting assets. And expendable ones, then you can, you can theoretically engage in that sort of intelligence collection in a in a more deniable means and possibly cheaper too. You don't have to pay these people, they just are excited to feel special. And if they are involved or sorry, entrapped in a human trafficking network, well, then they are under your power anyways.

• 2:45:45Speaker 01

  Dark stuff, I think.

• 2:45:48Speaker 02

  Do you think the UFO legacy program engages in human trafficking of psionic assets? People from third world countries often who, you know, sometimes from disaster zones that could go missing. Who can call in craft or unlock the craft through sort of a psychic mind meld with it or anything like that?

• 2:46:09Speaker 01

  I've only heard those allegations, so I can't support them. But provably the US government and other governments are interested in people with these capabilities for, for decades. Using them on the inside as well as interested in just civilians demonstrating these abilities. So I, I would not be surprised, but the whole legacy program engages in human trafficking. I have no evidence for that.

• 2:46:37Speaker 01

  Maybe, I think it's just to speculate. Private interests probably do.

• 2:46:44Speaker 02

  Somebody told Matt Gaetz that that happens. Obviously Jake Barber's testimony essentially amounts to that. And then Michael Herrera's as well, that, you know, he was in Indonesia. He sees this kind of eight gone craft.

• 2:46:57Speaker 12

  I estimated that this thing was probably about 300 feet. And when we end up getting into this clearing is basically when we were intercepted by this force. This clearing was pretty big, but this craft was enormous. But you could tell by their dialects that they were American. You can tell by their facial expressions that they were, you know, they were serious people.

• 2:47:14Speaker 02

  At the time, he doesn't know what it's transporting. Now he thinks it was transporting human cargo. And so they were rounding up people from this disaster zone in Indonesia. Presumably to take them to some sort of range, maybe so that they could, they call them P3s. People with psionic predisposition potentials. And they act as the bridge. So there's like somebody who's, this is so dystopian and crazy, but it's this person is used to summon the craft, lock onto the craft. They're so dissociated that their neural pathways through an EEG monitor are being, they're being used like a joystick

• 2:47:56Speaker 02

  by somebody, you know, in the air force or, you know, and who's probably been sheep dipped or whatever. And is working for one of these contractors. And that's how these crafts are lured in and they're shot with directed energy and retrieved. It sounds nutty, but do you think there's anything there?

• 2:48:20Speaker 01

  I think.

• 2:48:24Speaker 02

  Jake Barber wrote a book called Sentinels of Ether. And he came out with the first chapter of the book and it was 20 pages. Seven pages of that book was redacted by subject matter experts for some reason. And that's what the book's about. So I find that somewhat compelling.

• 2:48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's, I'm sorry, it's just a dark topic.

• 2:48:46Speaker 02

  It's totally dark.

• 2:48:47Speaker 01

  Once you get to the human aspect of disclosure, it's, it's gets really ugly, really fast. And it's hard to not have some sort of emotional reaction to, especially when you.

• 2:48:57Speaker 02

  No, it's, it's insane. And the, the, to get even darker, these P3 assets, psionic assets, they're called pink assets because they're seen as sort of human meat or something like they're just being used to call in these crafts. Like they're, they're, they're just, you know, disposable instrumentation. When they're people, they're human beings.

• 2:49:20Speaker 01

  So my, my immediate questions with that is like, what is the, like, the rate of shoot down events that you need a constant supply of, of, of psy assets? And also why do you need a constant supply? Why can't you reuse them? What's happening to them?

• 2:49:40Speaker 01

  But let's just take aside the shoot down equation. And speculate, well, what if, you know, some of the technologies that we've recovered require interface through, through consciousness sort of means or psy means to, to operate. Well, there's a reason to acquire people and also to keep them, you know, very much under control. Cause they're essentially the key that opens your magic tool. And you, you don't want that key walking out the door and denying your ability to use that tool. There's also the possibility that some of these things, just speculating again, might be gated through genetics. So only certain genetic lineages are able to interface with certain devices.

• 2:50:23Speaker 01

  And that that's, you know, one of the criteria for making someone desirable to, to a human trafficking network that feeds people into the pipeline. But you get, I keep, I cannot shake the suspicion that there is some sort of deleterious effect on these people. If this is true.

• 2:50:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:46Speaker 01

  Necessitates a constant influx of fresh blood, as it were.

• 2:50:50Speaker 02

  No, that's why, I think that's why they're called pink assets. They get this thing called sundowner syndrome. They get dissociated, they have no idea where they are, you know, and what they're doing. And, and, and they, their bodies start to break down. I don't think they're, you know, I, I think it would be putting lipstick on a pig to say that they're, you know, fired up to be doing what they're doing. But I also, you know, again, this is like N of one, N of two, N of three sort of stories. And so I, I'm trying to piece it together. I don't fully know how widespread this is. I don't know if that is how the UFO legacy program works. It seems like that and some Navy archaeological find on the seafloor seem like two qualitatively different things to me. But I don't know.

• 2:51:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the human factor, end of the day is, is, is where the conversation needs to go next. What is their interest in us?

• 2:51:49Speaker 01

  Why care? Why would the government go to such lengths to find people with these skills? Especially in a deniable way from disaster zones. That's, I mean, that seems like an extraordinary level of effort.

• 2:52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, you've talked about it with your interest in Abromelin and hinted at certain sort of gnostic concepts. At the very least, even if you wouldn't describe yourself at all as kind of a gnostic. And there are traditions of, you know, kind of neo, neo platonic and gnostic traditions of theology of co-creating with the, with the creator and you sort of, there are levels to this sort of thing. And it feels like

• 2:52:29Speaker 02

  the legacy program, at least if, if this is how it works somewhat, is almost trying to speed run. What is like a hermetic, coplistic process, which should never be done. If you actually read like, you know, Peter Lavenda is a great person who writes about this. He has a great book called Stairway to Heaven. And it's all about these, you know, celestial ascent practices across different traditions. And you're never supposed, you have to be of a certain age, a certain purity of intent. And all of that seems to be ignored in, in, in these cases. It's like you're systematizing it, you're attempting to scale it and you're instrumentalizing the stuff you get back in the form of weapons technology. That doesn't seem like a very good idea.

• 2:53:12Speaker 01

  No, and again, what, why is there such a seemingly high burn rate?

• 2:53:21Speaker 01

  And where are these people in society? I mean, maybe some of them are on the streets and just nobody listens to them because they're functionally like insane. Um, and so maybe they are out there or do they just not get out?

• 2:53:34Speaker 02

  I mean, that's, that's the other question is like, also, how many crafts come down due to their efforts? Cause it can't be perfectly repeatable. It's gotta be like the

• 2:53:45Speaker 01

  You would think an advanced system would learn that the TTP is involved in luring the tech down and, you know, adjust.

• 2:53:51Speaker 02

  I think so too. And also I just, I fail to believe, and I'm sorry for anybody who vehemently disagrees, but I don't think we have thousands of these things. We just, it just doesn't seem possible.

• 2:54:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:54:02Speaker 02

  You know, you don't have something that that's, that's that widespread that could be, you know, some somewhat democratized through some psychic means and directed energy or whatever, you know? Maybe the directed energy part's a little more, you know, behind the iron curtain, but like, ah, that just doesn't make sense to me. And then why would that? I don't know. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense.

• 2:54:23Speaker 01

  I wonder if this story of using psionics or empaths or humans as bait for shoot downs is, is in fact cover for a real agenda. And for, sorry, for a, a deeper agenda or a truer agenda. And that might have something to do with breeding. And that these are essentially brought in as breeding stock. They have the genetic potential and you can essentially through successive generations of, of breeding,

• 2:55:01Speaker 01

  concentrate that potential and maybe, you know, um, once a certain amount of births are given, you know, person's no longer needed. And in fact, they aren't really the asset. It's going to be three or four generations of breeding down the line where you have some sort of super psychic child.

• 2:55:20Speaker 02

  Well, so it's sort of like forced selection, natural selection. It's a speed up of natural selection where you would isolate all the attributes around psychic predisposition. So maybe it's the caudate impotainment and the basal ganglia, which Gary Nolan talks about, which runs in families. You know, if you're more neuronally dense there, you're more likely to have UFO interactions. They actually have differences in their brain in some of the cases you've seen that might explain why they're seeing them.

• 2:55:48Speaker 13

  Yeah, that they're basically smarter. And what's fascinating is it runs in families.

• 2:55:54Speaker 02

  And things like that, you know, uh, RH negative blood or whatever. And then you're, you're breeding over many successive generations.

• 2:56:02Speaker 01

  The shoot down thing doesn't make sense to me. I mean, maybe on a very limited basis, but again, this is advanced technology.

• 2:56:10Speaker 02

  That's nutty.

• 2:56:10Speaker 01

  It would learn. It makes more sense as a cover based on people I know and their interactions with some questionable groups out there. It seems like they're more interested in females. Humans are more interested in the females than the males, which makes sense if this is more of a breeding focus.

• 2:56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it does, the mind doesn't go to many good places. But I think we have to start confronting these questions and also start looking at, you know, who are the bad actors in, in our communities that are exploiting our sisters? Who, who is not who they say they are or doing things that are questionable? And demands secrecy from you in exchange for your, you know, free trip to somewhere or your participation in some exciting, uh, UFO call down event. Are they?

• 2:57:11Speaker 01

  Are the, are they who they say they are? And are they doing it for what they say they are? You know, I think the UFO community has a durational penetration by our intelligence services. And at this point, I would argue organized criminal enterprises. It's not, I don't think it's very safe for people that would describe themselves as empaths right now.

• 2:57:33Speaker 02

  Hmm. Yeah. It feels like they're, uh,

• 2:57:38Speaker 02

  being tracked or something. And, uh, yeah, yeah, it's a weird, weird phenomena. Well, uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't know where to go from there. You said that humans are a resource, presumably to the beings, to these non-human intelligences. And you've hinted at the fact that life is precious and unique, and that's why they're here. What does that mean? Are we like, are we like gas or petroleum or, you know, some sort of rare earth mineral to them? Or like, what, how does, how does that work in your mind?

• 2:58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's multi-layered. And, you know, there's some things I have more confidence on than others. I think with a certain degree of confidence that human potential is part of what their interest is. The psychic potential potentially and our, uh, and our technological development and what we could become in the future. Whether that's like a, a subservient race, a proxy race, um, or,

• 2:58:43Speaker 01

  you know, something maybe less, uh, less cooperative than those options. I don't know, but, um, the human factor seems central to all of this. In my mind, it's, it is the key. Once we discover it, we will explain a lot of the behavior of the others.

• 2:59:03Speaker 01

  Also, I mean, I mentioned, you know, like entertainment. Well, I mean, like if some of these things are humanoid, then there's, you know, various unpleasant ways you can take that line of thought.

• 2:59:15Speaker 01

  But again, if humans do it, why not other sentient beings? There's also the, the consciousness aspect. And in that sense, you know, if consciousness is non-local, um, there might be,

• 2:59:30Speaker 01

  you know, the, the possibility of, of humans being essentially vehicles or shells or temporary experiences for these, these things where they're able to ride along with us and experience, uh, life on earth, uh, that way.

• 2:59:47Speaker 02

  If I'm watching this, I'm like, this is all fascinating, but this sort of analytical, you know, figuring out of what's going on could be done theoretically by an open source scientist. How much of what you're saying right now is informed by things you feel like you know, because you've seen documentation?

• 3:00:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Good question. So my advantage is less that I've been briefed into legacy program, uh, capabilities or activities. And it's more so that by virtue of my role and my little interest in that role and its access, I was afforded a, a great deal of, of knowledge on frontier sciences and the transmutation of those scientific discoveries into capabilities that we use outside of the UFO subject. So I have a very, uh, not very, I have a, I think a very, uh, good foundation of what is possible and what is currently being done.

• 3:00:51Speaker 01

  And what is like the next two steps ahead in our discoveries in the non-public realm? But then I can turn to the phenomenon that we're looking at here and say, okay, what could enable what we're seeing here, right? If humans are making these discoveries, where does that lead, you know, four or five generations down the line?

• 3:01:14Speaker 01

  So in some sense it is, yeah, it is my own thinking. It is my own analysis. Take it or leave it. But it is, it is coming from a place of, I think, unique information, at least in the public world. Of course, people on the inside know more than me, but they're not talking to you.

• 3:01:31Speaker 02

  If you feel like you have an understanding of what's around the corner scientifically, are there any areas that you think we could have like kind of a stepwise update, huge leap in capabilities? Or where the scientific consensus is actually way off in our current model of reality or a current, current technology?

• 3:01:53Speaker 01

  So my disadvantage is that I'm not a trained scientist. In fact, uh, pretty far from that I'm focused on, or I, when I was involved in this stuff was focused on fact of and how it is applied, less of how it was learned.

• 3:02:07Speaker 01

  Or the language used to describe it in a technical sense. But where, where are we going? I mean, I don't want to

• 3:02:16Speaker 01

  get myself in jail.

• 3:02:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure, sure.

• 3:02:18Speaker 01

  But I think, you know, what we're talking on with consciousness being integrated with technology is a major area for, uh, changing the human experience. And in fact,

• 3:02:30Speaker 01

  I think is a, you know, if, if, is it, is an opportunity to play catch up as it were in the, in the public world versus the black.

• 3:02:42Speaker 01

  Less surprising is is is energy production. I I think especially when it comes to you've talked on it.

• 3:02:52Speaker 01

  You've touched on it with Kirk McConnell when he was on here extended electrodynamics.

• 3:02:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna bring that up.

• 3:02:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think, you know, it's no accident Kirk came to this show first and no accident, no accident, he brought that up.

• 3:03:04Speaker 02

  And so is the human brain wired in such a way, architected in such a way that it that it can function in these quantum mechanical ways and in terms of of modern extended electrodynamics. He's deep. So he's Senate Armed Services Committee and he was under Jack Reed, the Senator from Rhode Island. And he knows all about extended electrodynamics, which is this idea that, you know, so in classical electrodynamics, you have a typical transverse Hertzian electromagnetic wave. So you have the electric field, the magnetic field and wave propagation all running perpendicular to each other.

• 3:03:48Speaker 02

  And it's limited. It moves at one over R squared and it decays and attenuates. And it decays and attenuates faster under sea because of the existence of the magnetic field. The electrons pair off very quickly because of the saltwater, for example. And so there's a lot of talk around this idea of extended electrodynamics where you have a wave that could attenuate at one over R and you'd have a electric field, a magnetic field, maybe running parallel, maybe you wouldn't have a magnetic field, maybe you wouldn't have an electric field, or you'd have an electric field running parallel to wave propagation or a magnetic field running parallel to the wave propagation. And you could transmit signals through deep space and through, you know, underwater and, you know, undersea, you know, even saltwater.

• 3:04:33Speaker 02

  And it would, you know, be near instantaneous.

• 3:04:37Speaker 01

  I think this is also called like scalar longitudinal waves or something like that, or that's an application of that theory. Again, I'm out of my depth when it comes to the technical language. But yes, the transmission of energy and really space instantaneously seems to be where that leads. And also the extraction of energy, it's a reversible process as well, which is really fascinating and potentially very, very dangerous.

• 3:05:08Speaker 02

  My understanding is that the Russians, I think, are also, you know, have a very well versed in this.

• 3:05:14Speaker 01

  Seems to be the case. You know, people dismiss Thomas Bearden. I mean, whatever he's a, let's just say it's true. He's a limited hangout mixed with disinformation. You're covering up a core truth, though, which is that this is an area of physics that does have applications to security. But those same applications are potentially, you know, world changing in its term to certainly power transmission, especially if you can connect this way of transmitting or extracting power with a novel energy source that is potentially limited only based on its, you know, your ability to extract energy, right?

• 3:06:01Speaker 01

  Very powerful economically.

• 3:06:06Speaker 02

  Thomas Bearden was this Navy guy who constantly, yeah, talked about sort of scalar weaponry. He said that the Soviets sort of figured out this massive death ray sort of thing. And I mean, maybe he was a limited hangout, but the limited hangout around Maxwell's equations comes up so much that there has to be, there's when there's smoke, there's fire.

• 3:06:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:06:28Speaker 02

  There has to be something around a change in the math of Maxwell's equations. Or maybe being going back to Maxwell's equations, which were actually condensed into heavy sides for vector calculus simplified equations. There's something there.

• 3:06:42Speaker 01

  The crossover to sort of what you're talking about, which is like the latent potential in just the vacuum or the void again is where there's smoke, there's fire kind of situation.

• 3:06:55Speaker 02

  So like a zero point energy sort of thing.

• 3:06:58Speaker 01

  Basically, yeah, I think we're we're circling.

• 3:07:01Speaker 02

  Quantum vacuum fluctuations that you can harness.

• 3:07:05Speaker 01

  That might be it.

• 3:07:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:07:07Speaker 01

  Again, only concerned with the fact of when I was.

• 3:07:10Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:07:11Speaker 01

  Learning these things.

• 3:07:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything that, you know, the other thing I find interesting is like spin orbit coupling of, like you have these what are called topological insulators. Do you know anything?

• 3:07:23Speaker 01

  No, I don't.

• 3:07:23Speaker 02

  Or plasma stuff like topological insulators are like, you know, like when you get into like very high up in the periodic table, like very heavy elements.

• 3:07:37Speaker 02

  Few of them are stable, but take one like Bismuth, I think, which I think comes up a lot in sort of UFO lore. Bismuth's very strange and you end up in this thing. It's called the, you know, it's the relativistic paradigm where when it's infused with energy, you end up with this repellent magnetic force instead of an inward attracting magnetic force. So it's almost like a Meisner effect, like it's like an anti gravitational push off on anything trying to sort of touch it. And I think there's something around that that seems really consequential as well. Cause it dovetails with the Lazar stuff and yeah, the brown stuff, but we can.

• 3:08:17Speaker 01

  No, it's fine. What would you, what would be the utility of that? I wonder. Is it levitation? It was like a inherent property of an object that is.

• 3:08:27Speaker 02

  If you could push off on the magnetic field of the earth, that would be really cool.

• 3:08:32Speaker 01

  Got it. Okay. Yeah. See, that seems to be one of the modes of propulsion. You know, I don't know the mechanisms behind it. But that at that high level is something I've heard. You know, whether that gets you out of the gravitational well of the earth, I don't know, but.

• 3:08:51Speaker 02

  How far do you think we've gotten in reverse engineering these things?

• 3:08:56Speaker 01

  Hmm. I think enough to have propulsion and beamed power so that you don't necessarily have to have an onboard power source for these devices, especially if you're able to do lossless or near lossless power beaming. You can do some pretty incredible things in relatively small form factors. And if you're able to, you know, put your power beaming system in orbit, then you're able to essentially have global coverage and potentially, you know, have indefinite duration surveillance or operations staged in the atmosphere or exo atmosphere.

• 3:09:37Speaker 02

  How high confidence are you that some come from outer space into our atmosphere?

• 3:09:43Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, certainty.

• 3:09:45Speaker 02

  Certainty.

• 3:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:09:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, again, whether that means they're interstellar or interplanetary, that that doesn't prove that, but able to come in and out of our atmosphere.

• 3:09:56Speaker 02

  And that's from stuff you've seen on the inside.

• 3:09:59Speaker 01

  Thing. Yes. And then also like, you know, other people's testimony as well. I mean, we're, if this was any other subject, the amount of witness testimony from people with placement and access would be overwhelming.

• 3:10:11Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. No, I always say that. I agree with that. Where do you draw the line on what you can and can't say?

• 3:10:23Speaker 01

  To some, I mean, largely based on the Department of State cleared report. And then inference is drawn from that report. So if I was to talk about something that I don't have a cleared basis to draw that inference from, but that inference is classified in other sense. I feel like I'm on shaky ground. To put it simply, it seems like I'm more okay so far saying what I think and less of why I think it. Yeah.

• 3:10:55Speaker 02

  And you've experienced some pretty shitty reprisals to put it euphemistically, right?

• 3:11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:11:04Speaker 01

  You know, I keep a lot of things close to my chest.

• 3:11:09Speaker 01

  One, because there's nothing really to do about them, especially if they're state sponsored or corporate sponsored or foreign.

• 3:11:18Speaker 01

  Two, I mean.

• 3:11:22Speaker 01

  Burden of proof is on the accuser, but if you know, you're not, I'm not living with 24 hour surveillance around me, recording all my interactions. So if something happens and then I come forward with my word, well, I'm the UFO guy. So it's easy to dismiss what I say. And you know, the believe all victims thing doesn't seem to extend to UFO whistleblowers.

• 3:11:50Speaker 01

  It's been very unpleasant and

• 3:11:52Speaker 02

  You've had your house broken into.

• 3:11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a, that's a well-known one and it's mentioned the most because there's a, you know, someday there can go get the police record for it, called them, had them visit and all that is just, you know, what's the point? Police were just as confused as I was about the whole thing, which is, you know, nothing of value was taken, except for, yeah, nothing of value was taken. The only thing that was like totally removed from the premise and never recovered was my civilian passport. My grandfather's ashes were put out in the,

• 3:12:25Speaker 01

  in the, in the alley behind our house by the garbage and you know, my wife's documents were laid out in a way that clearly looked like, you know, someone was lined them up in a row, taken a photo of them and leaving them out there for us to find.

• 3:12:39Speaker 02

  They took your passport, lined up your wife's documents, showing that they were sort of combing them over. And then that's so disrespectful, man. They took her grandfather's ashes and they put them behind the alley?

• 3:12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, uh, you know, it all happened when we were there asleep. The only sign of entry was a very small basement window that was forced open and like, I, I failed to see how an adult male can get in there. So it was more likely that that was just done intentionally to, to demonstrate, you know, something had happened. They probably just came through my front door, picked the lock and, you know, walked in.

• 3:13:15Speaker 02

  I think there was like an old Stasi method of like, it's, I think it's called like move the furniture around, which is they show you that they can, they can touch you and

• 3:13:24Speaker 01

  Sounds a lot like that. Yeah. Yeah.

• 3:13:28Speaker 01

  You know, I've had,

• 3:13:30Speaker 01

  at this point, I'm,

• 3:13:33Speaker 01

  people either believe me or don't, so it's less

• 3:13:40Speaker 01

  costly to talk about things, but I mean, there's been other instances of, of, um, you know, either people demonstrating that they can reach out and touch me at any time, or incidentally, just detecting some sort of surveillance or similar kind of operation being conducted. Yeah.

• 3:14:04Speaker 02

  You said that Office of Special Investigations in the Air Force is actively messing with UFO whistleblowers and their families and stuff as well and getting into their private lives. Is that, is that right?

• 3:14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, we got, I mean, that's, that wasn't my experience, but that was, that is someone's experience in this world. They're not public. But and there, but there was proof in this case of it being an AFOSI officer.

• 3:14:40Speaker 01

  You know, there's no protections for whistleblowers. There's no witness protection program for Congress. We're out here on our own.

• 3:14:51Speaker 01

  You know, I've had

• 3:14:54Speaker 01

  instances that feel like foreign intelligence trying to penetrate my network and extract information and also deliver threats.

• 3:15:04Speaker 01

  That's certainly very concerning to me, both from, you know, I'm an American patriot. I don't want national secrets being extracted from me for foreign competitors' gain, but then also concerning, which is that in the world of intelligence, you know, using third parties to take care of your, your, uh, your dirty dishes, take out your trash is, is, is something that's done because then it's deniable, right? It's not US assets, uh, removing a person, it's foreign assets. So very uncomfortable.

• 3:15:36Speaker 02

  That's super uncomfortable. Uh, how has all of this affected you emotionally and do you ever regret coming out?

• 3:15:47Speaker 01

  I mean, I feel like I'm doing okay now, but for a long time is very stressful and you know, you get to a point where you're hyper vigilant and then you know, you're responding to things that aren't a threat in a, in a, in a way that doesn't match like the gravity of what's going on. So you know, that's not good for anyone involved.

• 3:16:06Speaker 02

  Anybody deep into UFOs has been there.

• 3:16:09Speaker 01

  That's not, not a, not a healthy lifestyle by any means.

• 3:16:20Speaker 01

  Do I regret coming forward? I mean,

• 3:16:24Speaker 01

  on a personal level, yes, it's, it's done nothing good for me or my wife or, or my friends and family.

• 3:16:32Speaker 01

  There's been no meaningful reform. There's been no official disclosure. There's been no justice for anyone, whether myself, other whistleblowers, or the people involved in legacy program where they're the victims of associated activities.

• 3:16:48Speaker 01

  People get entertainment out of this. They get their curiosity satisfied to a certain degree. They get to mock and laugh if they don't believe. So on a personal level, yeah, I have a lot of regrets. It's, uh, there's been zero benefit, only downsides. Uh, and people that,

• 3:17:08Speaker 01

  people in my life have been hurt just because of, you know, virtue of association with me.

• 3:17:14Speaker 01

  But from a civic duty perspective, from a moral duty perspective, from a, you know, what is good for humanity perspective, no, I don't have regrets. It needed to be done.

• 3:17:27Speaker 01

  I just hope that, you know, eventually it leads to meaningful change.

• 3:17:32Speaker 02

  What do you wake up every morning now feeling now that you're on the outside?

• 3:17:42Speaker 01

  Nothing so, nothing very dramatic. I'm more, I've tried to focus more on my, you know, physical, spiritual and emotional health. Focus more on being a good husband, a good brother, a good friend. So what am I thinking about? It's how to do those things each day. Um, and

• 3:18:01Speaker 01

  you know, disclosure is kind of a,

• 3:18:05Speaker 01

  it's always in the background. It's never going anywhere. But it's, uh, it's not the first thing I think about anymore.

• 3:18:12Speaker 02

  That's healthy. Speaking of whistleblower protections, you have this very cool new initiative. Maybe put your leg down, so you're sure. What does that say? Vanguard. What is Vanguard?

• 3:18:25Speaker 01

  So this is a Vanguard, Vanguard Enterprise, Vanguard for short. It's a, uh, nonprofit that Dylan Borland and myself have started and Jeffrey Nusseteli has now joined. It's basic, it's pretty simple. It's a organization, a charity to support and empower UAP whistleblowers from the national security enterprise, helping them with their legal, financial slash career transition, medical, psychological and community needs. We're very much in early days on that. You know, we have a short list of people we know need help and we, you know,

• 3:19:05Speaker 01

  need to raise the resources to, to fulfill on delivering those, those, those forms of assistance, but you know, it's been encouraging some, yeah, it's been encouraging to see some serious community support and hope to build off of that and try to, try to help people because the government isn't.

• 3:19:24Speaker 02

  That's beautiful, man. And where can people donate?

• 3:19:27Speaker 01

  You can find our website, vanguardenterprise.org. There's a link to support. We use a platform called Give Butter. It's only for nonprofits. So every donation you made through there, you automatically get a email and you can, you know, use that to, to claim any taxes as a charitable donation.

• 3:19:46Speaker 02

  What's that trippy pyramid floating around above earth? And then you have the upside down triangle. It's a very interesting logo.

• 3:19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, we spent a lot of time on it. Um, how the, we have a great team of volunteers that have been helping us for, for a while now and this is one of, one of their products.

• 3:20:06Speaker 01

  You know, there's, there's various ways the symbolism can be interpreted, but

• 3:20:12Speaker 01

  where we started with was the World War II V for victory. And that's kind of where we based the shape on. And then from there, kind of got this evocative motif going.

• 3:20:23Speaker 02

  Very cool. Anything else we missed or?

• 3:20:29Speaker 01

  Probably can't go into it too much, but I would just also add that another area of science and technology that people should be aware of is advancing or has advanced quite rapidly. It is in the biotechnology realm. And that definitely overlays with the phenomena that we're talking about.

• 3:20:49Speaker 01

  And it is currently, you know, one of the, the most

• 3:20:56Speaker 01

  unrecognized, I guess, trends that's going to, that is in the process of changing our environment.

• 3:21:02Speaker 02

  What sort of biotech, genetic editing?

• 3:21:04Speaker 01

  Definitely, I mean, definitely when it comes to, you know,

• 3:21:09Speaker 01

  constructing or, or changing the human genome for specific purposes, but things like

• 3:21:18Speaker 01

  entirely synthetic biological constructs, and then the interplay between directed energy and synthetic or modified biology.

• 3:21:27Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 3:21:27Speaker 01

  There's some very, um, important things that people should start pulling the thread on in those areas. And that this again gets back to consciousness and, and how it is manipulated through both natural means and increasingly technological means.

• 3:21:42Speaker 02

  So like psychotronic weaponry?

• 3:21:45Speaker 01

  So I've only heard that term on the outside, but I mean, yes, I think we eventually get there. I think that's more specifically a directed energy application, but

• 3:21:58Speaker 02

  Can you cause somebody to hear or see something through directed energy?

• 3:22:05Speaker 01

  Definitely here.

• 3:22:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:22:08Speaker 01

  I, you know, directed energy is a very broad category. I have very good reason to believe that, you know, essentially our mind is no longer sovereign. It can be interfaced with through

• 3:22:24Speaker 01

  remote means as well as, you know, direct, you know, kind of devices, right? Even our dreams are now subject to technological manipulation. This isn't even classified knowledge. At least anymore. You can look at technical applications from MIT itself relating to dream implantation, including at a distance.

• 3:22:46Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 3:22:46Speaker 01

  So, you know.

• 3:22:48Speaker 02

  And do you think ideas can be implanted?

• 3:22:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:22:50Speaker 02

  Somebody's waking life?

• 3:22:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:22:52Speaker 02

  That's freaky.

• 3:22:54Speaker 01

  It is.

• 3:22:54Speaker 02

  And you're high confidence.

• 3:22:56Speaker 01

  I'm certain.

• 3:22:57Speaker 02

  That's insane. Yeah, that's, it's interesting. I interviewed this guy, Dr. Colin Ross, and he wrote a book called CIA Doctors. And it's all the, you know, whole MKUltra thing and how all these psychiatrists were distributed across the United States, often at, you know, elite universities. And like Jolly West, for example, was like head of UCLA psychiatry for a very long time. He's talking with Sidney Gottlieb back and forth. He's probably MKUltra-ing, you know, Charles Manson. Like, it's wild, like, the history of our country. And it's interesting, he wrote a follow-up book on directed energy and electromagnetism in the body. And so it's not even wacky at all to say that that electromagnetism has this fundamental influence on life.

• 3:23:43Speaker 02

  You know, there's a great professor named Michael Levin at Tufts.

• 3:23:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:23:46Speaker 02

  And he talks about, you know, how morphology, like basically the form that your body takes is more dictated by the local electromagnetic field than it is by DNA. And that in some ways, that's the, you know, the DNA is providing the proteins, which is the hardware. But the software that's writing on top of it is electromagnetism. And if you put a frog embryo, for example, in a Faraday cage, so you eliminate, you know, all electromagnetic interference, it won't grow correctly. And then if you put something next to something radioactive, like, you know, in, you know, Chernobyl, like, you know, things get mutated or near the Fukushima disaster, you have two excess radiation or no radiation.

• 3:24:27Speaker 02

  If you eliminate the Schumann resonance, you know, even astronauts have issues with their bodies when they go into space. So there's something about electromagnetism in life. And, you know, our cells communicate via voltage gated ion channels. So they're, you know, it's, it's very, very essential. It's fundamental. Yeah. And if you look at all the Havana syndrome directed energy stuff, the person is being wholly destabilized by microwaves, essentially.

• 3:24:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:24:52Speaker 02

  So.

• 3:24:53Speaker 01

  I think this is another area where it's provably suppressed science. The interaction between the human body and our nervous system, our organs.

• 3:25:03Speaker 02

  But you think we can, semantic content can be relayed into somebody's life?

• 3:25:08Speaker 01

  No, it can.

• 3:25:09Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 3:25:10Speaker 01

  And this isn't even like a natural, like a woo or psychic thing, that through artificial means, ideas can be implanted or transferred or played in the, in the human mind in multiple ways, actually, you know?

• 3:25:27Speaker 01

  The most crude of which you could call like the voice to skull technologies. I never saw that on the inside, I know a different term, but that's the public one.

• 3:25:36Speaker 01

  There's those, again, public things, which is like, you know, using a pulsed microwave to cavitate water and essentially generate sound or heat. And also, interestingly enough, light. Light is able to modulate DNA.

• 3:25:56Speaker 01

  You know, biophysics as a field is, is an area that has immense potential to change the human experience for both the better and the worst. And I think unfortunately, most of this research has been in the security, intelligence and military realm. So the applications are understandably focused on things not oriented towards human flourishing, more towards control and such.

• 3:26:20Speaker 02

  Naturally, I mean, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail and you're not going to be engaging in the research for the betterment of humanity. You're gonna be doing it for sort of destructive means. But it's so unfortunate when you end up with civil side science that's lagging, you know, all sorts of really exciting stuff behind the iron curtain and it's only being used for weapons. We're still flying 747s from, you know, the 60s and we still use. It's again, it's, it's not even crazy at all to say, you know, biochemistry is the only layer with which we treat the body. And fundamental to biochemistry is physics, it's acoustics and electromagnetism, all three of those things.

• 3:27:02Speaker 02

  That's not, that's passe to say it's conventional in science to say that. So why wouldn't we have some sort of deeper, more granular understanding of how those three things interact with the human body? Of course we would. And then where I'm both freaked out, but also intrigued, because I'm sure there are really positive applications of this, is how the hell would you distill an electromagnetic signal into like semantic content and then transmit that into somebody's mind? Like, that's.

• 3:27:33Speaker 01

  You know, that's the secret sauce. I wish I could give you that answer, but um, I, I actually suspect, you know, there's, there's there's enough leads in the open source or gray literature on this that, you know,

• 3:27:46Speaker 01

  motivated parties could, could replicate that capability.

• 3:27:49Speaker 02

  Do you ever wonder if we're playing in sort of padded walls? Like, the whole UFO conversation is somewhat limited. And it's limited by people who have capabilities on the level of, you know, being able to confine what we're thinking about and causing us to sort of chase our tail like. Often it feels like right when you're about to get smoking gun evidence, it goes missing. And I talked about this with Dylan, you know, Borland. I was like, do you think that the non-human intelligence is involved in the cover-up itself or something? And he was like, yes.

• 3:28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:28:27Speaker 02

  I for sure know that.

• 3:28:28Speaker 14

  My opinion?

• 3:28:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:28:29Speaker 14

  Absolutely, yes.

• 3:28:30Speaker 02

  Have you ever talked to anybody in a credible position in the government who seems to have hinted that humans aren't in charge?

• 3:28:40Speaker 14

  The ICIG did it.

• 3:28:42Speaker 02

  What did they say?

• 3:28:43Speaker 14

  I, I want to respect them. But the ICIG did it with me.

• 3:28:47Speaker 02

  So the intelligence community inspector general told you that humans are not in charge?

• 3:28:51Speaker 14

  They extremely hinted at it, yes.

• 3:28:53Speaker 02

  It's almost like a defining, almost design feature of the entire UFO space is like you, and Jacques Vallée writes about this and he wrote about it 50 years ago. And I don't know if he's that much closer to the truth now than he is then, after decades of studying this thing. You're in this construct, their control mechanisms are being used to cause you to literally chase your tail. And you are always on the verge of some smoking gun and it always slips through your fingers.

• 3:29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, on, on one side of that is, is, I mean, this is a heavily monitored community. So they know what we're talking about. And once, you know, they detect that, you know, there might be an effort to try to actually get something, you know, they're, they're already well aware.

• 3:29:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:29:39Speaker 01

  Can take that preemptive measure.

• 3:29:43Speaker 01

  But it makes sense, though, that, you know, the others or the, the non-human intelligences would, if, as they seem to be, are invested in keeping us unaware of their presence, that they would, you know, kind of prevent independent discovery outside of their controlled, you know, relationships with, with human proxies. I believe Dylan. I also believe that what that points at is, is collaboration between us and, and some sort of third, third party. Most likely, in my mind, we're the juniors in that partnership.

• 3:30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, makes sense. Well, on that note, Matthew Brown, thank you so much for coming. This has been a long time coming. This is a lot of fun. And, uh, yeah, I just, uh, I don't know. I hope that, please donate to Vanguard. Check out the website. What's the website?

• 3:30:32Speaker 01

  Vanguardenterprise.org.

• 3:30:33Speaker 02

  Okay, check that out. Donate, please give whatever you have. And, um, yeah, I really appreciate you coming.

• 3:30:41Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jesse. This was a quite a pleasure. Like you said, long time coming. I'm, I'm really happy to, to finally have the chance to do this. So thank you.

• 3:30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, wide-ranging discussion.

• 3:30:51Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 3:31:24Speaker 00

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