“I Saw a Triangle Shaped UFO At a NASA Hangar!” -Dylan Borland Tells All

Our American Alchemist this week is Dylan Borland, a former 1N1 geospatial intelligence specialist for the United States Air Force. You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! Visit https://ketone.com/ALCHEMY for 30% OFF your subscription order PLUS receive a free gift with your second shipment—or find Ketone-IQ at Target stores nationwide and get your first shot free! iRestore: Unlock your best hair & skin with @iRestorelaser and HUGE savings on the iRESTORE Elite + Illumina Face Mask Bundle with code JESSE at https://www.irestore.com/JESSE #irestorepod ZBiotics: Go to https://zbiotics.com/JESSE and use JESSE at checkout for 15% off any first time orders of ZBiotics probiotics. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/american-alchemy-3758eda5-237b-45f1-b043-da80a300714e Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Take me back to Langley Air Force Base 2012. What exactly did you see?

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Outside, smoking a cigarette on the phone, bussing, and I see a light pop up near the NASA hangar. And the light starts to fly to me across the base. And as it flies to me, a triangle manifests around it.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  How fast did it move?

• 0:53Speaker 02

  Between 100 feet off the ground approximately to at minimum 30,000 commercial jet elevation. Two to three seconds.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  My name is Dylan Portland, a former 1N1 geospatial intelligence specialist for the United States Air Force.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  So you experienced this, and then what happens next?

• 1:13Speaker 02

  So I was working at BAE, and somebody who worked for the government, they heard about me talking about the triangle, and they thought I was read into the program, because they were. That's when I came into knowledge about a very specific program. I am sure there are crafts that were not made by humanity at this current time and place when we recovered them.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Have you ever talked to anybody who seems to have hinted that humans aren't in charge?

• 1:41Speaker 02

  The ICIG did it.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  So the intelligence community inspector general told you that humans are not in charge?

• 1:48Speaker 02

  They extremely hinted at it, yes.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Holy shit.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  Whistleblowers going to the ICIG, if they disclose CIA secrets and Department of Energy secrets, they are not allowed to be prosecuted for espionage, which is a death penalty.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  How could you ever, you know, say that somebody's committing treason for drawing a hieroglyphic while simultaneously saying that the whole UFO program is fake?

• 2:11Speaker 03

  A non-human intelligence pyramid power source.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  I've been read into so much stuff, I don't even know what I was read into. They said I have PTSD for a job that they're claiming I never did. I get hooked up to this polygraph machine, and there's a computer where they're flashing images and air horns have to count backwards from 100 by 7. And if I went 193, 86, instead of saying 79, 78, the air horn would go off, and I would have to restart, and they would restart the flashing images.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 2:46Speaker 04

  Ignition sequence five.

• 2:50Speaker 04

  How is this possible? Nothing too much about that.

• 2:56Speaker 05

  Existence cannot longer be denied.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Dylan Borland.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Sir.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  It's an honor and a long time coming to have you here. You testified before Congress in September of 2025. And I remember tuning in from abroad. I was with my buddy Chris Ramsey, actually, in Spain. And I felt like I don't ever want to go to one of these congressional hearings again. I think it's a total dog and pony show. I honestly thought nothing interesting was coming down the pike. And then I remember listening and actually watching on C-SPAN your testimony.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  My name is Dylan Borland, a former 1N1 geospatial intelligence specialist for the United States Air Force. During the summer of 2012, my team was on standby for weather, and I returned to my barracks on base. And at approximately 0130, I saw an approximately 100-foot equilateral triangle take off from near the NASA hangar on the base.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  And being like, this is wild. This guy seems extremely earnest and authentic. Not only has he had, you know, firsthand sighting, but he seems to know a lot more about UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs than meets the eye. And you experienced all sorts of reprisals, administrative terrorism. And so that story is really wild. The ontological truth below it is wild, too. And I'm really excited to have you here. First off, what are you wearing?

• 4:30Speaker 02

  A wonderful shirt I go on eBay. I try to tell my friends and loved ones. I love puzzles, so I love video games and puzzles. And, you know, after ODNI committed a felony against the whistleblowers, I decided to go and pick up a couple t-shirts.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  What does ODNI stand for?

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Office of Director of National Intelligence, Director's Initiative Group, the DIG, which Senate had a hearing with James Irwin III. And it was supposed to be under Tulsi to get into what the government did and has been hiding all these years.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  And I believe the ODNI started in 2006, and it was meant to oversee all the intel agencies. And so, you know, CIA, Office of Naval Intelligence, all of that fits within the purview of ODNI, which was supposed to sort of organize them all, oversee them.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  So little-known thing. ODNI is supposed to be the chief boss. CIA doesn't really like to play ball with them. And even James Irwin, who testified under Senate recently about everything they did to whistleblowers for AHI, COVID, and UFOs.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  CIA does their own thing. Legally and by the law, technically, ODNI is above them. But here we are, alas. So yeah, you are correct, though. 9/11, George Bush, the DHS Act. All of that was created to get that under control. And the CIA continues to do what they do.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  And I want to be careful here because I don't want to get you into trouble. So I'll say that somebody from the ODNI said to Jeremy Corbell, the program name of possibly some UFO reverse engineering program was called, if you remove your hands. I love puzzles, dude. I love puzzles. So I'm not saying that anything came from you, but that was their statement to him.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  I was told by an ODNI agent that Dylan testified to ICIG, the police of the intelligence agencies, that there is a UFO program, and it's called Rubik's Cube. That's what he said. That's what I heard from the ODNI, which they shouldn't be calling me and telling me what was described in a SCIF.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Am I correct about that?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  That is per Jeremy and George. I cannot confirm or deny anything. What I will say is Jeremy and George are sweethearts. I love them. They are incredible friends. I consider them family. They are well-informed. If Jeremy and George, as legal reporters in the United States, doing their legal job to inform the public are saying that our country committed crimes disclosing whistleblower testimony to a journalist, take it for what it's worth, they did it.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's a serious accusation to claim that the, you know, most important, at least, you know, structurally, intelligence agency is doing that, you know, is a very big and bold.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  100%, and then you get into real fun stuff, which is why we're here today. For everybody covering this up, how are you going to argue national security when you're disclosing hypothetical classified information to journalists, which would be classified under national security? You can't claim we got to hide this while simultaneously disclosing classified to journalists? Doesn't make sense, in my opinion.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  No, it makes no sense. As does it not make sense to accuse whistleblowers who, you weren't even on the program directly, of treason for essentially letting stuff out due to literally a personal experience where, you know, you happen to be on Langley Air Force Base, but you experienced something. And then people assumed you were part of the program, so they told you a bunch of stuff. So you can't go after, you know, somebody like yourself.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Well, and now we get into these crazy situations. I mean, for me, Jesse, it goes back to what I've been adamant about, and shout out to Dave and everybody else. You know, we talked about it. Dave is busting his butt.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Dave.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Grush. And his arms are tied behind his back, and everybody is just trying to get this done.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  You know, when we talk about retaliation and bumping into programs and talking to WUSAPs.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  And WUSAP is a waived.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Special access program. You hide them within special access programs. It's how you find, that's how you hide money. So like hypothetically, I may be doing special operations for drones hypothetically. And within there are people who are read in and you have certain SOPs and TTPs. But more importantly, you have capabilities that are not allowed to be known to anybody outside of the people read in.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  You can be working next to somebody who is read in and doing that job. And somebody may be working recoveries right next to you and you don't know it. And that might be how more or less somebody may be

• 10:01Speaker 02

  believed to be read in.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Let's back up. I want to give, I want to set the, set the table for people who maybe are less familiar with your story. Cause we just, you know, went off the deep end there. Um, are you, are you, where are you from originally?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  I was born in Washington DC.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  My dad and my mom met in Pittsburgh PA.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Got married, had me, we moved to DC. My dad actually worked for the US government. He did all the museums. So he actually, if you ever go to DC, if you see the Constitution, he helped to set that up. So if you go in there, you see the Constitution and he lived in Palm Springs. Uh, we did a lot of Native American museums. He lived up in Baker City, Oregon and did the Oregon Trail Museum up there. So, uh, been around the block, but, uh, more or less you could say I'm from Pittsburgh.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Yep. And Pittsburgh has an interesting relationship with UFOs historically, right?

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. We talked about this last night, my man. Uh, and that was a delicious burger, by the way.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  There you go. Best in Austin.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  You know, uh, this is out there and I've been trying to edge people into it. That is research lab up in Pittsburgh and they were the first people to develop nuclear power for the Navy. And that was in the fifties and you get into Kecksburg and all the UFO sightings in the Western PA region. At one point in time, they were tasked to develop the nuclear satellites for space. And the contract conveniently ended, but as of right now, that is still exists and, uh, they're still doing it. Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Interesting. Yeah. And Kecks, Kecksburg is around there and I believe, what do they call it? The triangle?

• 11:44Speaker 02

  So we talked about this too. So it's called the like I 81 corridor. So on Unsolved Mysteries, shout out to Michael Shermer. You just did that interview. Michael Shermer's been on Unsolved Mysteries and, uh, between Norfolk Langley Air Force Base, west towards Winchester. I forget what that city is down there, but north on I 81, all the way to Harrisburg PA. And then back down through DC, back down towards Pax River. It's called the I 81 corridor and they had historically UFO flaps. I hate to call them that for years, decades. If you go into New Fork, New Fork, uh, you can actually see all of it. And then this goes back to the first CIA director and

• 12:28Speaker 02

  him being involved in all this, it's, it's pretty well known historically.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which CIA director are you thinking of? Roscoe Hillenkotter?

• 12:35Speaker 02

  I think so. Yeah. It was the very first one. He was a Navy Admiral and he retired with the CIA. He was the first CIA director, Navy Admiral. And he was on the board of directors for New Fork. Super mom, I'm terrible with names.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  No, yeah, that, that was Hillenkotter. Cause he was, he was actually a classmate of Donald Kehoe who formed NCAP. And then they joined together and Hillenkotter, it's so interesting because I think he was frustrated at not getting the proper information about Roswell. And so you think of like the first CIA, say CIA director. And I think he's even, you know, supposedly one of the majestic 12 or whatever who was briefed on this. And then, you know, under, under Truman, but then supposedly he was actually really complaining to army counter intel saying, actually I don't know as much as I should about these topics.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is. And then you get into the 1947 National Security Act with creating the air force, the CIA, the National Security Council, which you and I discussed, which is how much was majestic 12 tied into National Security Council? Yeah, man. I mean, I think the irony is, is you, Jeremy, George, Gurb, everybody is unpacking this. And the history is there and Dave set a foundation publicly and all of us are coming out and we're supporting what has been done for decades. And, uh, you know, I am of the opinion that 94, 95, 95% of it's out there. It's just you guys piece, put it together.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, no, that feels right. It feels like, uh, it's just hidden in plain sight and it's all open source and it's just, you know, can you piece it together? And it feels like a lot of people are piecing it together, but it's on these sort of, it's this ragtag team of vigilante like YouTubers and stuff. And so it's, it's not taken as seriously as, you know, somebody can do an extremely, you know, deep dive on, you know, the, the legacy program, its structure, like UAP Gurb. And so he'll go extremely deep and he'll give you the structures. He'll talk about how federally funded research and development centers interact with, you know, special access programs, how they have subject matter experts that oversee these like carve outs, the SAPs of these, you know, prime contractors and stuff.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  And, you know, he'll, he'll, he'll do a three hour video and he'll do many of these videos. And then you have Neil deGrasse Tyson, who's this like, you know, high priest of science. And he'll just say one thing like, well, after, you know, 50 years of whistleblowers coming out, you know, he'll be like, after the last 10 years, it really seems like maybe I should start to take this seriously. And the whole consensus just shifts, but nobody, nobody pays attention to people like UAP Gurb. It doesn't make sense to me, but.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  I, yeah, I mean, I shout Gurb, love him, man. He's, he's awesome. He's, he is knee deep into OSINT and, uh, he knows his stuff.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  You know, you talk about Tyson. It's funny that, uh, here we are and you know what he was like three years ago and now here we are. I mean, Dr. Phil. You know?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Dr. Phil.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Unironically, like you brought up Kecks, we were talking about Kecksburg. We talked about it yesterday. Right now we're one day past the Kecksburg anniversary for the party up there.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Things are coming together and, uh, like we talked about, I think the next 10 years are going to be real interesting.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  I think so. I think so too. And we'll get into that. But, um, so what were you doing in the government initially?

• 15:52Speaker 02

  So I went to college for my undergrad in criminal justice poli sci out of IUP. Uh, I wanted to be an military officer. Like I told Jeremy, weaponized interview, same old stuff. I did Army National Guard ROTC. Didn't, I want to go active duty and I always want to be air force.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Why'd you want to do that?

• 16:12Speaker 02

  It was in me, man. I remember being a little kid with my sister. For those of you who know Pittsburgh, especially the South Hills, there's a place called Casti Village. I'm a kind of dox myself, but, uh, it's a little strip mall in the South Hills and they have an air force recruiter station. And I remember that while I was there,

• 16:36Speaker 02

  they have one of the old school, like 1950s posters and it was a young kid, uh, with his sister and they had a dog. And it was at the air force recruiter station, Marines, all of it. And I remember seeing that poster. I was like, I really want to serve the air force. One of my grandfathers is retired or not retired. He served in army counter intel for Panama. The other one served in the Navy. My dad's a Navy vet.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  What'd your dad do in the Navy?

• 17:02Speaker 02

  He actually was, uh, on aircraft carriers, landing and taking off jets.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  And it messed him up.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Really?

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  How so?

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Accidents and then just working 18, 20 hours at a time, you know, that, that it takes a toll on you.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Do you think he ever experienced anything with UFOs?

• 17:18Speaker 02

  No, I talked to him about it. I mean, he's the same one I was telling you about who did all the museums and stuff. And he ended up with National Archives and him and I talked about it. He, uh, when I testified, that's when I think things clicked for him with like, oh damn, like what the hell did my son get into?

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  But no, he never talked about it. It was mainly like typical military trauma and BS. So, yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. But he was on a nuclear aircraft carrier, landing and taking off jets out there in the middle of nowhere in the oceans. And yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  So you wanted to be in the air force and then where did you end up? Cause I think you ended up in a very interesting position that is kind of unique to our modern warfare paradigm.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  I would agree. Um, I ended up, so I took my FOQT. I want to be an officer. I could have gone officer position. The Marines gave me one, but they made me wait three years and I was homeless.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  So, you know, my ASFAB, I want to say it was like a 96, a 97, which not to brag, like that was actually lower. Like I knew high school kids that fucking ace that shit. But, uh, because I'm at college degree and I got in my nineties, they were like, hey, you have any job you want. I took the, uh, linguist test. I forget it was a D lab. That's it. So anyway, I was like, look, I know I want to work for the government. I want to help people. I want to protect people. And I, everything I did was intel. And then number one was OSI. I wanted to be an FBI agent. Like, I want to be a pilot and an FBI agent. That is what I wanted from a kid ever since I saw that poster you brought up and what we were talking about.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  So everything I did was intel and uh, I go through all the vision tests, everything you go through maps. And uh, they're like, hey, uh, you can leave in three weeks, not be homeless and we'll give you imagery as an enlisted air force. Airman. So I was like, sounds great. Let's go. And then I got in there and I didn't realize that a one-on-one imagery analyst was ISR. So basically I got thrown into the drone program. So manned and unmanned aerial vehicles, satellites, imagery. You know, we got into the drone program touches on so much, human, sigint, all of it. Uh, got thrown into that world with special forces, special operations.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  What years was this?

• 19:38Speaker 02

  So I enlisted in 2010. I was medically discharged in 2013. Um, 2010 to 2013.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  So this was when drone strikes really ramped up.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Oh, it was crazy. Yeah. I remember some of my buddies I still talk to today remember it under Bush, then we transformed into Obama. And I can't get into details, but I was there for the tail end for the other drone program. Um, yeah.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  And notoriously, people know that drone operators who kill enemy combatants actually suffer from a lot of PTSD, sometimes more.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Because they're aware of the kind of dissociation. They're aware that um, all of this is being turned into some sort of video game. And so it messes with them more. And I can imagine being an image analyst. So your role was to say, yes, that is the correct target. You know, you can strike, move forward. That's a really tough position to be in too.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, you know, I talk with a lot of my imagery buddies. Um, I need to be careful with how we get into this, but uh,

• 20:48Speaker 02

  I don't think anybody leaves that world without having it be a part of them, especially on the more problematic side. You get what I'm saying?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  You know, I uh, I, I told a story on Weaponized. Um, at one point in time, the drone program was worse for suicide than anybody else in the military. There's actually something crazy about this is, so when I left the air force, a couple, my friends were at

• 21:21Speaker 02

  the locations where we do this. I want to be real careful.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Like, if you remember my Weaponized interview and we're talking about redacted, every single special forces unit I probably worked with, Marsoc, pararescue, redacted. SEALs, which is redacted. Everything I was redacted in there is unit names, uh, public unit names. Like, I'll say it now, DevGru. Everybody knows who DevGru is. I redacted that because I don't want to put the SEALs in that position, straight up. And that's fine now. It is what it is. Um, but when I left the air force, um, my buddies at the locations, there are specific locations where this is done. They were calling me up and they're like, yo, we had a suicide stand down.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  And the irony is, we were still working while we had the other units stand down for drone issues. And we're still working, but there was a military stand down for it. I'm not making fun of them, but it's such a crazy world because it is non-stop. Go, go, go, go, go. And, you know, we support special forces. So we're supporting everyone in special forces. So there is no time down.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  So it's like, everybody just kind of takes a breather, but you're always having somebody go at it. And it's, it's wild, man.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  I feel like it's like a, a double whammy as far as PTSD goes because you have the kind of, the, the separation dissociation and maybe even like survivor's guilt of like special forces, they're like in there.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  They're, they obviously have skin in the game. They could easily get taken out. And so it's like you're, you have this like, what seems like this drudgery of this nine to five. But you have this asymmetric advantage and you can just take out targets on command. And I can only imagine that that, but you're also in the subordinate position where you're just, you're serving your country. You're doing your job. You signed up as a patriotic American to, you know, defend the country and to take out, you know, I'm sure in certain cases, very bad people, you know, terrorists and stuff. But in other cases, I'm sure there were edge cases that you didn't agree with and you can't do anything about that.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  No.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  And that's shitty.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it sucks, man. And I think all of us who come out of that world have that feeling. You know, I'll tell you a story. Um,

• 23:40Speaker 02

  well, when I was doing that, my dad came with to visit. He's a Navy vet and he was actually stationed at Norfolk and he came with to visit me and we were hanging out and uh, some stuff went down. Um, and he wants Starbucks. I don't drink coffee. So I was like, dude, I'll go chill with you. And I remember some really wicked stuff went down that weekend and I, I'll never forget. I just got off of a four-day Panama shift. And I'm with my dad down there at Langley, Hampton Roads. And I'm in line, he's grabbing his coffee and I'm sitting there thinking in line while he's getting a coffee, everything I know that I just did for the last four days. And it's like,

• 24:19Speaker 02

  what the hell is this? It, it's a weird thing, man, because you have to, you have to be able, it's almost like disassociation. You have to be able to immediately trigger it to turn it on and go. And then once you walk out the door, turn it off because it will mess your life up.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  I can, yeah, you have to, I'm sure, keep it super compartmentalized.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  And like we talked about yesterday, going back to whistleblowers and experiencers. You know, I don't know how Dave does. I don't know how any of us do it. We're just surviving. Like you trying to figure out a way to turn this off, knowing that the reality of this is happening.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  And then this goes back to our org. Like, how do you do this? And that's what we're all trying to figure out.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Well, when I look at uh, the eyes of David Grush, the eyes of Jake Barber, you know, I look you in the eyes too. You, you, you have this like, I've seen some shit. Look. You do. No, seriously. Like unless there's some, you know, troupe of actor training or whatever inside the government where they're like, you know, teaching people Marlon Brando levels of, of, you know, Oscar winning, you know, then, then, then like all these guys are coming out and they look like they've seen some really traumatic shit. Uh, uh, sticking with the, you know, your role as an image analyst for the drone operation. I'm sure there were times too when, you know, there was collateral damage and there were casualties incurred.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  I

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Where you're just taking orders.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  I will be very careful there. I think it's well documented for all those years. I may or may not have done this for a living. How many people were

• 25:53Speaker 02

  collateral damage? And I think about it every day and it breaks my heart.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Well, I'm sorry, man. I mean, you, just so you know, you were, you were serving the country and you were, you were doing your job. And so, you know, that's, it's not your fault. Like.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  I appreciate you, Jesse, and I love you, man. Big hugs.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Love you too, man. I love you too. Yeah. I wish we weren't in this spaceship, but here we are.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  Trippy, man.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  It is trippy. It is trippy. We're in the SS Enterprise. Yeah.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Okay. So that was your role. Uh, take me back to Langley Air Force Base 2012. What exactly did you see?

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. I mean, uh, whenever this was weaponized, shout out Jeremy and George, you know, uh, we were on, so same old shit. Um,

• 26:42Speaker 02

  on Panama schedule, you're on call, you're doing 12 hours shift work. Uh, when weather was down overseas, can't get into specifics, but if we can't fly planes and craft or grab satellite imagery, you know, you send people home on split shift and uh, you're on call. So I live on base and I always said like, look, man, I don't have a family. I'm living by myself on barracks. Y'all go home to your kids. At least you got a couple of hours with them. So one o'clock in the morning rolls around, um, drive across the base from Langley, pass a NASA hangar, pass a runway, go back to my barracks. I change, uh, usually smoke cigarettes, maybe grab a beer, chill out, play some Borderlands or some Grand Theft Auto, whatever.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Go out to the gazebo and I'm smoking a cigarette. I'm on the phone with my buddy. Uh, he was a federal officer, 1811 position, FYI. I mean, behind the scenes, this goes back years. Everybody knows all of these things in the world where I testified to, but uh, outside smoking a cigarette on the phone, BSN. And I see a light pop up near the NASA hangar. Um, you know, I think we'll fill in some stuff on the Weaponized interview. Um, a lot of the redacted stuff, like I said, was protecting individual units, locations and things I know that were tested. So I'll say it. Uh, the first redaction was about weather balloons. I have seen weather balloons be tested from that NASA hangar.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  I believe in national security. I love the nation. I believe in protecting the nation and protecting the people who serve and die for it. So I see this light pop up from the NASA hangar, 1:30, 2 AM, you know, around there. And uh, literally I thought it was a weather balloon. And uh, I see it pop up, smoking a cigarette on the phone. I'm like, oh, that's wild. Clearly at this time of night, in the middle of the week, you're testing something fun. Don't think anything of it. Begin walking up. So at night, like, you guys know me at this point. Most people know me. I, I, I have a thing where I walk, I pace. I'm like, I gotta be doing something. I've always been that way. So uh, I see this. I start walking up the street

• 28:53Speaker 02

  to the main street to go walk around the track. And I had an old MP3 player. It had like 12 songs on it. In fact, one of the Nas songs was on there, my man. Um, so uh, I'm walking up there. I walk up to the main street, up towards the gym and uh, the Jag office. And as I'm walking up, the light that I see popped up from the NASA hangar. And the light starts to fly to me across the base. And as it flies to me. A triangle manifests around it. Um, you know, to be clear, I am very, very, very adamant about what are the facts? I can't tell you if it's active camouflage. I cannot tell you if it manifested around it.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  I can't tell you if the light created some crazy wormhole. I can't tell. What I know is it was a white light that became a triangle, flew to me. Um, there's some other stuff that I don't want to get into. That is well known in the I C that it did while it happened. Um, but it flew to me and stopped 100 feet in front of me, 100 feet above me. And most beautiful piece of technology I've ever seen. Static electricity, uh, smelled like a lightning storm. Shot off my cell phone red hot, which is an indicator of things within the ISR world that you know what's happening. Crazy.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  And so it's 100 feet above you. Describe the color, the dimensions of this craft.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  So, uh, approximately in my official aero M F R that was classified, I described it between 100 and 150 foot equilateral triangle. There were lights on each corner. There was a center light, two to three times larger in the center. Uh, it's black metallic flake paint. I'm looking at it and I can see the edges. Um, so it was flat on the bottom, two to three times center light, uh, black metallic flake paint. I can feel the stack electricity, the phone's turned off. And so like the edges are 90 degrees that come up and then I never saw the top of it. So like from the bottom to the corners, it was 90 degrees.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Who knows what the top of it looked like? But, uh, the big one was the outside pulsated move like a lava lamp. It had like this goldish transparent flow around it where the whole craft was. I don't want to call it moving, but it was moving. It's like, take a lava lamp, put it on black metallic flake paint. And have the lava lamp flow around it.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Um, and it was just sitting there pulsate like I, I could see the intensity on this gold, on this craft pulsating as it flowed around the craft. It was there for like two, three minutes or so, uh, and then all of a sudden the center light flashed. That thing shot up, as I said, my opinion is commercial jet level. And then got up there, it looked like a satellite, sat there for a minute. I finally reset my phone and it just went right over the Atlantic Ocean.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  You said you reset your phone. What happened to your phone?

• 32:07Speaker 02

  So my, I was on the phone with my buddy, uh, 1811 position for the government, which is a federal officer licensed badge carrying gun carrying federal officer. I don't want to give his information out. Um, but the phone got hot. My phone call ended, uh, battery was drained. I was trying to reset it while I'm looking, I want to get a picture of it. I was like, dude, no one's going to believe this. Um, and once it got up to elevation, so I was trying to reset it while I was, I wanted the picture. And, uh, I finally reset the phone. Once it got up to elevation, it's, it, it looked like a star. I remember I was trying to take a picture of it and this is 2012. I think I had what like a Samsung 12 or a Samsung 11 or something.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  So it turned your phone off?

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Uh, no, so it froze it. I couldn't even turn the phone off. While I was within that distance of me, the phone was so hot, I couldn't reset it. Like the phone couldn't reset. It was completely shut down.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Did it say due to heat or something?

• 33:08Speaker 02

  There was a heat warning on it. Yeah, there was, but like, you know, you put, hit the power button to like volume down or whatever it is.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wouldn't turn off.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Were you feeling hot? Was your body?

• 33:18Speaker 02

  No, I just had a stack electricity at that time.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Once it got up to elevation, once the center light flashed, I could smell that rainstorm. And then once it got to elevation and I smelled it, it kind of calmed down, looking at sitting up there. And then that's when the phone cooled down, I was able to reset it.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  How fast did it move? And obviously you're estimating, but how fast did it go from 100 feet above you to commercial airline level?

• 33:40Speaker 02

  I have testified to this under oath, within seconds between 100 feet off the ground approximately to at minimum 30,000 commercial jet elevation. Two to three seconds.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  What would that make it as far as, you know, how fast it, you know?

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Hell, if I know, go, go from ground level of 30,000 feet in two seconds.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  It's pretty, yeah. Have you, can you, have you, have you done the calculation?

• 34:04Speaker 02

  No, I have not. Well, I mean, if you're, if you're going from ground level of 30,000 feet in two seconds, that 15,000 feet per second. From stationary two.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  So let's call it two. If you do three, that's 10,000 feet per second.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  So.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Seconds, man. Seconds. That thing flashed and that thing was gone.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  It's so wild.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  It's beautiful, man.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  When you saw the light turn into the triangle, did it go and did the light just like kind of instantly turn into the triangle? Or was the light slowly approaching and you realized that you saw it as a light because it had this sort of, you know, plasma sheath gold lava thing around it?

• 34:45Speaker 02

  This is where, again, this is why I'm trying to make sense. When Jeremy said Dylan's looking for answers in the interview, that is what I'm looking for. I got a lot of questions I know true's on. When it flew to me, the best way to describe it is that light flew to me and the white light was the center light and the triangle. Manifested or decloaked around it.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  So for me, it was like that plasma sheath. I watched, I watched a triangle form around the light as a center light.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Hmm. Why do you think it flew straight to you? One of the main reasons I'm able to go multiple hours on these podcasts while staying mentally sharp is because of this little drink. It's a product I started using years ago and it's called Ketone IQ. I know the founders Jeff and Michael personally, and I was thrilled when they agreed to sponsor the show. Because it's one of the few products I trust to give me clean, sustainable energy. I've been taking a little shot of this thing during every long recording and it lights my brain on fire. Here's the science behind why it actually works. When you're running on glucose or sugar, as your brain is most of the time, it's essentially burning dirty fuel.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Your brain could be like a Ferrari, but you're feeding it 87 octane fuel all the time. Ketones are what your brain actually prefers when it's operating at its best. Normally you'd have to fast for days in order for your body to switch from glucose to ketones. This little shot of Ketone IQ gives you the ketones directly. So your brain runs the way it's supposed to without any spikes or crashes. So visit ketone.com slash alchemy for 30% off your subscription order. Plus receive a free gift with your second shipment. That's ketone.com slash alchemy for a whole 30% off. Or find Ketone IQ at Target stores nationwide and get your first shot free.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Why do you think it flew straight to you?

• 36:56Speaker 02

  One of my many questions I want answers to.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Hmm. I remember when I was interviewing, uh, David Grush. He was allowed to talk about this, even though it wasn't cleared through Dopser because it was like a informal friend testimony or something. But he mentioned a huge 300 foot triangle that somebody, uh, saw on their way to work.

• 37:17Speaker 06

  He was going to work at a certain facility, uh, in the morning, you know, not drunk, not high. And a 300 foot triangular craft hovered over his car, um, uh, for a couple of minutes. And all the zenith upper facing decks of his car were all got hit with ionizing radiation ultraviolet because the paint became milky.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  And, uh, so is this like, how common is this? Is this?

• 37:42Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Happen all the time?

• 37:43Speaker 02

  If, if, if I'm right in what you're talking about, I believe that guy was at Norfolk, Virginia. Uh, that might be the one at Norfolk, which interestingly is within a couple of years of when I saw mine at Langley.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Interesting for you.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Fascinating. Okay. And, um, so the buddy that you were on the phone with, I'm assuming he's anonymous?

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Okay. Would he back you up privately and say, yeah, I was on the phone with Dylan? The phone shut off. We spoke about it right after he told me about this experience.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm sure he would, but again, like this gets into issues with doctors and bosses. How many people, police officers, how many people really want to throw themselves to the wolves of social media to get harassed and all that, you know?

• 38:29Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, do you like, do you still have a good relationship with him? And to you, he's like, yeah, I remember that time in 2012.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Hey man, I'm 39. I mean, you know, you get older. Uh, I got friends I haven't talked to in five years. We call up and we're laughing. I'm sure if I call him, it's like, yo, man, you remember this? He'd be like, yeah, I remember. I was like, off the record. If you want to say like, yeah, you were on the phone with me, he'd be like, yeah, I'll do it.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. What do you think this lava like sort of undulating light was around the craft?

• 38:57Speaker 02

  So thankfully you asked that and thank God I don't officially know. Uh, I think that it is some way to ionize the atmosphere around a craft with a power source. And it's electromagnetic, probably nuclear, but again, this is hypothetical. Um, I think that what that is, is charging the craft, positive, negatives to ionize the atmosphere around it to control. Uh,

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Speed, travel, direction. That's my opinion.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  What's so fascinating is, you know, I think the most vital version of anti-gravity that, you know, the US looked into involves negative and positive electrodes being charged with megavolt range electricity, which would ionize the air around it. A lot of these experiments, which were being conducted by Thomas Townsend Brown, ionized the air around it. And so you end up with these sort of charged particles, you know, basically plasma. And then they recombine with air or O2, you get O3, you know, three oxygen molecules. And that's what this, it's literally what you described. It's this thunderstorm effect.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  I, uh, I'm glad you said it because again, you get into the nitty gritty. I love you and Gurb and Jeremy and George and everybody studying this. What you just said is more than I know, based off of my own testimony, I believe you. I mean, it makes sense to me. Again, I can only understand what I know and what I've witnessed and what I've seen and what I've testified to. Everything you said makes perfect sense to me in my limited understanding from witnessing it and studying it. So that makes sense.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  And you said the object didn't fly towards a base. It flew over the ocean? And then did it descend down?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Never saw it. It looked like a satellite. So, once I saw it come from the hangar, the white light, it flew to me. The triangle manifested, decloaked, insert however it came to be. The light became the triangle, got up to elevation, stopped, looked like a satellite, and then it went due east out over the ocean. And I lost it as it slowly moved east out over the Atlantic.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Do you think it came out of the NASA hangar, this craft?

• 41:08Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't. But it could have. I mean, that NASA hangar is huge. It's a big NASA hangar. And being where I live and working with, uh,

• 41:22Speaker 02

  C17s, you know, I know a big hangar when I see it, but I don't know.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Do you think NASA houses exotic, reverse engineered UFOs?

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Well, here's a funny one for you. This is a good question, and this is public knowledge. And I'm sure when this comes, people are gonna go dig into this. If you go to Langley Air Force Base and you look at NASA and you look at Google, uh, you can start clicking all the buildings that are tagged. And interestingly enough, a lot of those buildings have people that work there that are tagging like puzzles and hieroglyphs and rocks and formations. But again, maybe it's just people that work there are trolling, but, uh, you can look it up on your phone right now.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  They are tagging puzzles and hieroglyphs?

• 42:04Speaker 02

  It's like, it's like labyrinths and they're showing pictures of pyramids and they're showing pictures of hieroglyphs and rock formations.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  On Google Earth?

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can pull it up right now.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Why would they be doing that?

• 42:15Speaker 02

  A hell of a fine no, dude, but they did it. Cause I was laughing when all this stuff went down. I started screenshotting it.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  This connects with, again, this is ODNI talking to Jeremy Corbella, journalist, apparently. I'm not even saying, you know, this is me hearing this in your interview with him. And, he said that Rubik's Cube is this program name that freaks them out. So puzzles, that's where my mind goes. And then he also said that you drew pictures for the ODNI and one of those pictures was a hieroglyph. So you're saying that this area where you saw the UFO is being tagged with all the UFO related knowledge that you seem to have?

• 42:56Speaker 02

  What, what I am saying is, is that if you go into Google Earth, as of right now while we talk about this, there are people on Google Earth where if you pull it up, or not Google Earth, Google Maps.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  But you're saying that they work there?

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, they work there. If you pull up Google Maps, you can see it. You can go and track them down on LinkedIn. See, here's the problem.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  So it's not random trollers. It's people, literally people who work there are tagging where you saw the UFO.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  People, at least on that section of the base, are tagging like random labyrinths and random buildings. And they're showing pictures of ancient archaeology and random stuff. And you can go and pull up their record on LinkedIn and they clearly work there. And there's just a random picture of a labyrinth connected to some random hangar at the NASA facility at Langley. Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  That is so crazy. And Langley, you know, people think of Langley as synonymous with CIA.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, of course.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  This is Langley, Virginia?

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, Langley Air Force Base.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  And so where is Langley Air Force Base with respect to?

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Right next to Norfolk.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  Like right across the bridge, a tunnel at Norfolk.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  So is it, is that in Langley, Virginia?

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Uh, well, see, here's the problem is when people talk Langley, they think CIA. Langley Air Force Base is Langley, Virginia as well. Hampton Roads, Norfolk, that whole area. Um, however, what's interesting is you bring up the NASA angle. The reason why NASA exists there is because back when we had the trips to the moon, that is where we were developing that technology to go to the moon. NASA's development to get up into space and everything, pressurization was done at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Wow. I still can't get over, we're gonna look this up right after this. So there are employees there who are tagging puzzles, labyrinths, ancient archaeology.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  It's pictures and it's just random weird stuff of like pyramids, labyrinths, puzzles. And it's just like, oh, click this facility. You know how when you look at Google Maps, you'll see like posts? People have just random pictures of this random stuff there. And then you go and look them up on LinkedIn. It's like, you're, you're a PhD in like electrical engineering? Why are you tagging this and posting this on this facility at NASA Langley?

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Well, that seems like, if, if that's the level of operational security, you know, involved in the program, they shouldn't be going after you. You weren't even like, you know, on the program. Like, that's insane. That's not.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  To be fair, Justin, we talked about this too. I mean, what, what joke is this when ODNI is threatening whistleblowers and falsifying evidence for treason and espionage and then committing a felony of leaking to journalists? Like, what are we talking about anymore?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  That's so crazy. I mean, the other really interesting thing about all of this is you have this guy, Jim Lekatsky, who's this, you know, longtime DIA rocket scientist who's in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. He was clearly involved in OSAP, this program between 2007 and 2012. And on Weaponized with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, he's saying that he breached the hull of a UFO craft.

• 46:12Speaker 03

  You're, you're telling us, you told us, because you were allowed to tell us, that our government has a UFO in its possession and has been able to access the inside of it, right?

• 46:23Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Which is wild that he's saying this and he's publishing this in his book and he's saying, I can only say that. I can't say more. But what's really interesting is if you read his book, uh, New Insights, and I think his other book as well, he talks about UFOs as puzzles, as like almost consciousness puzzles. It's as if the byproduct is, you know, either ancillary technology that we, we even have the framework to be able to create. So maybe you end up with fiber optics, but the original use for the thing was like way too complicated for us to ever even, you know, surmise what it was used for. But it's almost like it's, it's meant to fuck with us a little bit. Like, we look at the, we look at this saucer in a

• 47:06Speaker 01

  hangar and we're like, we have no idea how this could ever be built. And that explains these debates, you know, with like Eric Weinstein, Eric Davis, where Eric Davis is like, we don't have physicists on this stuff.

• 47:17Speaker 07

  There wasn't a real physicist there. Nobody at the PhD level who's either an applied physicist or an, or a theoretical physicist.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Because the physics frameworks we have are so, you know, they fall so short.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  I, you know, we talked about this last night too. I think, I think Lekatsky is probably my favorite old timer. Hate to say it. And I've never talked to Jim. I would love to. I send him peace and love, you know? I know he's popped up recently again. Davis did his interview. Lekatsky isn't a BSer. Lekatsky said it happened. It happened. And hypothetically, I may or may not know some of the stuff he said is true. Um, but like we talked about, one of the things you gotta remember is, I know for a fact, and most of us do know, which is, our government will recruit people who are competent to understand the information

• 48:08Speaker 02

  and train them to do the job in the way they want them to. Back to physics. And we taught, you, you know where I'm going with this. Um, but yeah, you're absolutely right. You know?

• 48:20Speaker 01

  But you're, I think you're making a point, which is, um, there wouldn't be physicists on the program. You might want electrical engineers or just generally high IQ competent people because you can retrain them with, you know?

• 48:33Speaker 02

  And, and then hypothetically, if you understand the physics, then it doesn't matter what the physics is. And now it comes down to a matter of reverse engineering.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yes. And then I struggle with, I don't think that they understand the physics. That would be my guess, but I don't.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm completely open. You and I talked about, I don't know. I'm completely open to it. I'm completely open to it.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. In, uh, 2023, Langley Air Force Base, uh, basically saw drone incursions for 17 days.

• 49:04Speaker 08

  New details are now emerging about mysterious drone activity over US military airspace. Air Force officials confirmed several unmanned drones flew over Langley Air Force Base in Virginia last December. The Pentagon is still not saying what officials think these things really are.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  Drone incursions?

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, drone incursion. Basically UFOs, 17 consecutive nights, a swarm of unidentified drones infiltrated the restricted airspace over the base. So our, one of our most sensitive air, air spaces. And, uh, you know, it was a dozen or more drones were involved in the incursions. It was more than two weeks. The official response, the Pentagon publicly confirmed the incursions in October of 2024. And the spokeswoman said, we have no idea what this is. We haven't identified any of these things and we have no, you know, defense against them.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  There, there is so much of that story because I know what they were targeting. Again, I was working for DITRA at that point, you know? People forget.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  So DITRA is the Defense Threat Reduction Agency?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  It's all WMDs. So counter WMD, nuclear, biological, um, chemical, um, I'm an imagery guy.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  And do you think DITRA ties in with the UFO legacy?

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Oh, of course. That goes all the way back to DOE. I mean, again, if people go through their history.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Things become clear, but again, where I was at was in Detro doesn't have a, doesn't really have anything to do with it, you know? Um.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that whole drone incursion thing, there's a lot more to it. There's a lot of imagery there. There's a lot of fun things there that I know exist.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  But if you think about, I don't want to say think, everybody who knows knows, uh, those drones were really targeting primarily NASA and then a very specific location on Langley Air Force Base. Because you gotta remember the NASA side of Langley is separate from Langley Air Force Base. There are two separate gates. And there's a fence that guards it and there's patrols, but uh.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Were they, um, targeting, cause I believe,

• 51:16Speaker 01

  um, uh, there were, there were stealth bombers there with possible.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  Well, I, well, here we go. Uh, here, this is gonna be fun. One, one to think about. So the F-22 is a stealth aircraft.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:32Speaker 02

  They were targeting the stealth aircraft.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  And they were targeting NASA hangars.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  And then to me, the payload would be the more interesting thing if you're a UFO and this is me saying this.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  I'm speculating this because I have data of around, you know, again, a hundred and sixty-seven plus whistleblowers who are at nuclear sites all over the country, coming from the sky, Robert Hastings. And even if you look at Nimitz, it's like a little known secret that tactical nukes are, nukes are almost always on board. You know, these, these aircraft carriers. So nuclear is just this ubiquitous connection with UFOs. UFOs always show up around nuclear.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  They do.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  They do.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Okay. All right. Well, we can move on.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  You did, you did say, uh, you know, some interesting stuff that I know is there and, uh, on Twitter, somebody said, we need 4K videos of UFO and we need NHI bodies.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  And then you said.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  I know that exists.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  You said, I know it exists.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  I know directly.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  I know directly that right now in our government, there is cell phone video ending the conversation about the triangles once and for all. And that is cell phone video. That's not even imagery. Cell phone video within a hundred feet of it. I know for a fact.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  And you know that we have high-res imagery of UFOs.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  One hundred percent because again, I know what I had and I know it was redacted from me because I wasn't read into the saps. As for the bodies, I want to be, I'm glad you brought this up. I want to be clear.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  This is where this gets into fun. Um, I am sure these things exist and during my whistleblower through Arrow and the IG and Congress.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Like I said, and weaponized when people ask a question, when you understand why they're asking a question after you make a statement, but uh, I believe Dave, I trust Dave. I know what I know. I know what I've been told. I know what I testified to. I know what came back as was confirmed. I know what Arrow and hypothetically the IG have told me directly in skiffs. It absolutely exists. There's no doubt in my mind. None at all.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  And you're sure we have craft and hangars all over the country?

• 53:53Speaker 02

  I don't know about all over the country. I'm sure we have craft.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  I'm sure they exist in a hangar somewhere or underground, wherever they're at, but we have craft.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  But you, you know that they're not just these aerial objects that are ephemeral that we don't understand. You know that we have been studying them on the ground in isolated conditions.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  I am sure of it, but again, this goes back, again, this gets into the fun stuff. We were talking about hypotheses, you know, if.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  But it's not, that's not really a hypo, you're, you're.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Oh, I, I am sure there are crafts that were not made by humanity at this current time and place when we recovered them. That is no doubt. Um,

• 54:31Speaker 02

  where they come from? No idea. You know, this is one of the things that people always attack this subject. They want to lump me in with quote unquote aliens and little grays and all that. That's not the truth. I've never said extraterrestrials exist. I've never said we have proof of extraterrestrials.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  But non-human.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  We have, we have craft that were not made by humanity at the time we recovered them.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Major difference.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  We recovered things that were not, were not made by us.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Could be future, future ancient humans.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Past, uh, we talked about the hypothesis of a human soul and us going to another planet and we're watching ourselves.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  And these are more advanced than.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  Clearly.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  F-22s and F-35s and yeah.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Fascinating. Yeah. Um, okay. So, so wild. So you experienced this and then what happens next?

• 55:25Speaker 02

  With the triangle or?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, with the triangle.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Dude, I went back to the dorm room, smoked a cigarette and, uh, played Borderlands or Call of Duty. I mean, I went back to work. I talked with a couple of my buddies and, you know, people heard me talking and, uh, I won't get into it, but, uh, they know who they are and I love them. And I talked with them a little bit after the hearing and they got real sketched out when I was like, yo, people want to talk about this. I can protect you. I'll bring you forward ghosted. But, uh, you know, people would share with me their

• 56:00Speaker 02

  situations with these things, but, uh, that was really it.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  At that point, had you met anybody who claimed to work on the program directly?

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Not at all.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Okay. But they were just, when you say their situations, their sightings.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  You know, it was so like, I had a excellent, I had an excellent tech sergeant. He was a prior load master, which I don't know if you know what that is. They're the guys who load up C-130s, C-17s, make sure the weights are good, make sure everything's good there. He clearly knew what was going on. He, my tech sergeant was the one that was like, Dylan, don't talk about this ever again. You have no idea what you got yourself into. I ran into a security forces guy who was a Raven, um, which is some air force stuff, but he was a Raven and he was talking about a situation in North Dakota where a C-17 landed. They dropped off a box. It was this horror deal in the middle of the night. Um.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  What was in the box?

• 56:56Speaker 02

  No idea. I was just told that a C-17 landed. They were called in. They had to surround the hangar in North Dakota. Um, they brought the box in. They were told, don't let anybody come here other than this general or anybody coming with this general. They were there for five, six hours, C-17 lands, open up the hangar door, throw it back in the C-17, a new one and off it goes. Again, so to be clear again, I am very factual based. Who knows? Maybe it was some Chinese stuff or Russian stuff. But we were talking about this while I was at Langley and people were just telling me odd things they experienced

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  that were out of place. Um, yeah, man, I just went, I went back to the dorms, back to the barracks and, uh, chilled and that was that.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  How'd you end up at BAE Systems? And what does BAE stand for?

• 57:46Speaker 02

  British Aerospace Engineering. Ended up there. I finished my master's degree and, uh, my background and my education, uh, they wanted me there. So I took the job. Needed to work at, what was that? Twenty, twenty-six, twenty-seven? Yeah.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  And you've called that, uh, kind of multi-agency role. Uh, I don't know if this is an example of a thing that you can say anything more about.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  We're getting to fun. I, I, you know, my resume speaks for itself. Uh, I can say I worked for BAE Systems, you know, going back to ODNI and the BS they pulled. Uh, you know, if I can't talk about it, at least what I know, cause again, I've never been through DOPSR. I'm not approved. Like I am, you know, everybody knows.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  You're going off script.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  I'm literally just out here existing, man.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, good.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  But, uh, you know, I, uh,

• 58:39Speaker 02

  I, I don't want to get into the agencies I work for, cause to the best of my knowledge, without going through clearance to talk, the last I heard, I'm not allowed to talk about the agencies I work for.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Can you say generically, you were, you were working on special access programs?

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Uh, one hundred percent.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Yep. And so you're working in this capacity and you run into other people that you think are on the UFO program directly?

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Yes. So I was working at BAE and, uh, I was talking about the triangle and other things I was aware of. And, uh, somebody who worked for the government in a program, uh, knew what BA was doing to me with my clearance and had heard about what I was doing. I worked with them. And they heard about me talking about the triangle and they thought I was read into the program because they were. And that's when this began, this whole thing. Uh, there were about two other people who were absolutely read in. And, uh, that's when I came into knowledge about a very specific program.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  And, okay. Interesting. Just, just looking at your shirt. Um, and, uh, yeah, okay. It's been a very specific program. So was this like an overarching umbrella legacy program, like a multi-generational crash retrieval and reverse engineering program or like an isolated thing?

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  I want to be respectful. I mean, their accesses were pretty large in scale, but their job was fairly large in scale. Um, what you gotta remember is historically, if you get read into a special access program, usually they allow you the backlog and they were able to backlog a lot of the historical stuff and they had found out quite a bit.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay. So, oh man, my mind is jumping to all sorts of places. So it's like, if you have a legacy UFO reverse engineering program and it's not in the digital age for many decades, uh, a lot of knowledge is going to get lost. A lot of taxonomies aren't going to get created and you're going to need something in the modern day to, uh, kind of concatenate all of that knowledge to, to put it all in kind of a central database, find deeper patterns with some of these things.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I want to be careful here again, cause I love this country. I love, I love this country. I mean, this is what I said. Under oath, I said the constitution shredded. Why, why I became a whistleblower is because I was concerned about people's safety, not UFOs. I know what they did to me. I know what they did to others who were in these programs. Um.

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  I know how the redons worked, at least for them and others. I know where they went. I know all of that. But there is a, at least in their instance, a historical backlog that once they were read in, they went in, began to dig into, and that's when those individuals began to get into trouble. Yes.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Let's just talk instead about like the specifics here because I don't want to get you into trouble. Kind of high level, how you think the UFO legacy program works because there are different narratives out there as to how it actually functions. So you think that these are physical craft? And you do think there are bodies as well and freezers essentially?

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know about bodies and freezers. I know there's a genetics component to it.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  You know, there's a genetics component. What, what, what do you mean by that?

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  I know that there is, at some extent, Dave called it biologics. There is no doubt in my mind that there is something dealing with genetics and, you know, I, again-

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  But Dave said specifically that they're pilots that were recovered with these UFOs.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  And I do believe Dave and I want to be very careful. You and I talked about this, you know? You know where my line is with my knowledge outside of government where I draw a line? I, I think that is true. I think, personally, I know it's true, but I'll leave it there.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  You know, you get in a remote viewing and we're talking about midnight climax, MKUltra, Mockingbird. And we're talking about all those programs. It's almost like it's an umbrella program under ESP, Sixth Sense, UFOs. It seems, in my opinion, knowing enough that I do know officially from government and being a whistleblower, all of that is connected up under one umbrella. And Lakatsky and Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, all of that ties into it. I mean, they almost admit it. So-

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  So MKUltra, all of these like off the books programs all tie in together?

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  I think my, well, I'm sure a lot of them do, but again, looking at, going back to what we talked, discussed with intent.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  And so I, I think of those programs that you just mentioned as CIA programs.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, they are.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like the, the, the larger umbrella is CIA. And then there's like some, is there some department there? I mean, a lot of people named Glenn Gaffney, who's the director of science and technology there as being responding, you know, one of the last leaders of the legacy program. Eric Davis said that he was the guy on my show.

• 1:03:59Speaker 07

  Well, I would love to talk to the head of the crash retrieval program during that era, but he refused to talk to us.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  And that was, that was Glenn Gaffney?

• 1:04:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  Okay. Glenn Gaff.

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  I, I, I think they're absolutely correct. And then you get into Department of Energy and we discussed this. So 2023, Dave testifies. I go to the ICIG, I'm my attorney. The following year, Congress signs into law, they get the president to sign it. And they say, hey, by the way, you need to redefine credible and urgent. And oh, by the way, whistleblowers going to the ICIG, if they disclose CIA secrets and Department of Energy secrets, they're not allowed to be prosecuted for espionage. So why is Congress creating a law saying that the following year from whistleblowers coming forward? After Dave comes with 40 other witnesses, kind of coincidental, don't you think?

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  They are allowed to prosecute whistleblowers for espionage.

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  I believe that that is one of the arguments that was being made at this point in time, which is, well, even though they followed the law, you disclosed information to the attorney general outside of the control group and you violated the law. You get into secret laws now.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  You get into like restricted data, the Atomic Energy Commission, 1954 Atomic Energy Act, where things are born secret. And if they have anything to do with, I think it's a transclassified nuclear material, you know, anything dealing with any of this stuff, then upon retrieving a thing or upon coming into any information, you know, that, that is already a state secret that you are-

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  You have possession of. And so this idea would be that if you were to tell that to the IC inspector general, the intelligence community inspector general, who's kind of playing this judicial role within the intelligence community?

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Then you'd be able to be prosecuted?

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  But this goes back to what we talked about earlier is technically DNI is supposed to oversee the CIA. That's not how it works. The CIA answers to the president. DNI answers to the intelligence community, which Congress has sort of oversight over. Department of Energy is almost basically the same as the CIA. They answered whoever they want and they claim executive branch privilege. So whistleblowers going to the ICIG disclosing executive branch classified inherent and born classified presents a problem and that's why Congress had to create the legislation in 2024. Hypothetically.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  And hypothetically, there are radar signatures that pick up UFOs? And are they in a specific range hypothetically?

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  Hypothetically, yes.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Interesting. And so you're finding out a lot at BAE Systems? And this is like water cooler talk or like, how are you figuring this?

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  I don't want to get into specifics because I am so protective of people and I feel so bad for the people who are harmed by this.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  People who I love and I care about and have been through a great ordeal with me by themselves, with me personally, without me.

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  You know, Dave,

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  when your job is taken from you, you lose everything and you witness somebody else going through it. And they're talking about things that you were brought into.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  It impacted them in a way. So this goes back to, like I said, my thing was when I heard that people's lives were in danger, that's why I acted. If, if I had never heard that, I would not be a whistleblower. Like the UFO subject, all of this is whatever. I know what I went through and I know what others went through. And I do believe that. This is why Sullivan and Dave and everybody else, Herrera, the threats, all of it, mess me up. That's real. All of this is real.

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  I don't want to call it water cooler talk. It was like trauma bond. Does that make sense?

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  So you're in a situation, doing an insane job with insane accesses, with insane knowledge, watching other people get screwed by the government.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  And it's like, who else do you talk to? And this goes back to Vanguard. This goes back to what Matt are trying to figure out. And even the experiencers, you know, we're trying to help each other because we're all lost in the woods. And I don't want to call us outcasts. We, we can only rely on each other until this gets over the hump, you know?

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  I want to get to Vanguard and ways for people to help and support.

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Before that, you and Jeremy talked about a power source with you when it comes to UFOs.

• 1:08:55Speaker 02

  Jeremy asked me a question. I didn't talk about it.

• 1:08:59Speaker 03

  Did you draw an image of a non-human intelligence?

• 1:09:06Speaker 03

  Pyramid power source? For the ODNI?

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  He said the power source. He went on my show and he talked about a pyramid structure.

• 1:09:19Speaker 03

  Talking about a pyramid power source. We're talking about something that you could put in other stuff. I'm imagining that's how we would retrofit things.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  That sort of gives off a definite energy and seems to almost like fry anything it interfaces with because it just kind of keeps going.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I know. I'm familiar. I listened to it.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  What about it, buddy?

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Okay. So plead the fifth on that one.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  You know, I, there's no plead the fifth. I heard it, you know, hypothetically.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  If, if you have-

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  That's such a crazy thing.

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  Hypothetically, if you have an electromagnetic power source that probably operates off of nuclear principles and it gives off energy and you can't control the load, you know?

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  But I think of a nuclear reaction as, you know, ending at some point.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  I would assume so, but again, so this goes back to one of our first discussions with Townsend Brown. And we talked about it, like the Model T in Ford versus a 2026 Ferrari.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  Henry Ford builds a Model T and all of a sudden he ends up at an army base and they're like, oh, this is awesome. Oh, by the way, check out what's in the garage. And there's a 2026 Bluetooth Ferrari with fuel injectors and the rest of it. If we take a modern nuclear power source back to the 1700s, can you control the load? Do you even know what the hell is happening?

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:50Speaker 02

  That's, in my opinion, hypothetically, what's going on.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's so crazy. It also touches on, you know, when I interviewed Lou Elizondo. And you know, it's always hard to parse these things and he speaks so high level and there's always, you know, sort of code or whatever, but it's like- He was like talking about, he was like, you know, the US has a toy. And you know, it's like, it was like this weird like analogy of like, you know, you have all these other countries and we're all in the playpen together. And if they play nice, they get access to the toy.

• 1:11:23Speaker 09

  You know what, maybe we can find a way where the kids in the sandbox can play together. Right? If you can't give the, you can't break the toy in 12 pieces. Maybe you put it in the middle of the sandbox. And rather than letting every child takes turns playing with it. You make a game where all the kids play with it at once. Right? And that's how you do it.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  It seemed to be maybe an analogy for like free energy or some like device that's like all powerful. And then in my mind, I'm like, how real is this? Or is this classic, you know? The CIA for many years will play up capabilities, they'll play down other capabilities. So it's always this sort of game of cat and mouse. You're always trying to figure out

• 1:12:06Speaker 09

  Yep.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  what's going on. But maybe he was talking about this pyramidal.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  I, you know, I, I love everybody. I want nothing but the best. I keep loving my heart. I tell everybody I love them. I love Lou. Lou is a very highly intelligent man and uh,

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  He's super smart.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  Oh, Lou is, Lou is very intelligent.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  Dave, I think the vast majority of us, in fact, all of us are highly intelligent. I would have to go and pick apart that interview. I may do it when we get done with this. Give me the interview. I'm going to pick that thing apart and I will know what Lou is talking about in IC talk. And I will have many opinions, but uh, Lou's not a dummy. And Lou's book revealed so much that if people understand IC talk, you can uh, understand what's being said, same as James Lekatsky's interview, the third interview with Jeremy and George.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Lou's book revealed a ton.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  And also, if you read eminent his book, he talks about BAE Systems as one of the companies that inherited, you know, UFO technology.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, he talks about locations. He talks about locations that are very close to things that happened recently.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  What locations does he talk about?

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  Uh,

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  He talks about them, so.

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  And his book, well, Jeremy said this, I'm going to quote Jeremy quoting Lou's book, which was cleared by Dobser, because I'm not going to jail because I'm free balling it.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, Pax River comes up quite a bit, doesn't it?

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  It does. So Pax River is uh, basically has all of the hangers for the most advanced naval aviation. And it would be where, and I just had Eric Burleson on Congressman from Missouri. And he was like, this looks like a place where you would transfer a UFO. You might even hold the UFO.

• 1:13:52Speaker 10

  I was able to actually be on site and see the facility that would have been that facility that they were going to transfer from Lockheed Martin to Bigelow Aerospace. And if, and I'll tell you, just being there and seeing it, um, if you were ever going to do a transfer, it would be logistically the perfect venue to do that.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  I was in Lou's book.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then you got to remember too, and then here's the problem is I'm trying to be so safe because I love this country and I love national defense. I don't want to put anybody in danger. Pax River strategically for a defense perspective, if you have a golden dome hypothetically, that's a really important place to have. That's pretty far east. You have access all along the east coast. So you throw something on Pax, you throw something in South 40, throw something up in Maine, you can defend the east coast.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  But yeah. Yeah. Hypothetically.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Hypothetically, and then you also have Salvatore Paez with his Navy patents from 2018 coming out of Pax River. And basically everything that you would need to build a UFO, from room temperature, superconductivity to, you know, mass reducing device, this thing that breaks the swinger limit. But yeah, he has, he has all these patents that basically like how you would build a UFO.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  Well, what you gotta love about Paez, and you and I talked about him and other things last night too. I, I love the fact that we're getting into this right now, but uh, you know, if you go into Google patents, uh, they reference older patents to justify their current ones. And what's interesting is if you get into some triangle patents and some other things, you start to track down power sources and gravity control. You end up back in the 50s with the Air Force and NASA and they're referencing things that are like, huh? So.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Like what from the 50s?

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  Just, it's been like two years since I read it.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  But they're talking about like gravity and uh,

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, that was the.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  Temperatures and all of it.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  It was the, the golden age of relativity then was what it was called. And even you had Bryce DeWitt was writing about, you know, um, superconductivity and these rotating superconductors that would maybe create gravitational perturbations. He was writing about this in the 50s. You also had uh, Stanley Desser and Richard Arnowitz from Princeton writing about gravitons. And that connects with Ning Li's work in the early 2000s because she had this graviton model where you had uh, AC superconductors rotating super quickly, creating weight reduction for anything above it. And uh, you know, it was this gravitational shielding mechanism. And if you read James Lekatsky's book, he talks about uh, ceramic superconductors, which are very similar to, you know, what Ning Li was talking about.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  So FYI, thank you for sharing that because I listen to you and Gurb and I, I pay attention. I always learn some new stuff about people and science when I listen to you and Gurb always throws some acronym. I'm like, oh, what is that? And then I find my rabbit hole down. I'm like, oh, I know about that. So thank you for sharing that. But uh, you know, you get into a really weird place with Paez. And well, how much of that is a cover? And how much of that is true?

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's very, it's very unclear. And there are basic, when I run those patents by conventional physicists, they usually say this is extremely intriguing, but they're like checkmate in one ways to, you know, debunk this stuff. It doesn't really make any sense on the face of it. So there's either something deeper going on and he has something vital he's not, you know, saying, or it's, you know, deflecting or trying to throw people off the trail. It's unclear.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  And he, there was a place where I got to in my interview with him where he was like, Jesse, go no further or whatever. We were talking about uh, the fifth dimension, uh, where electromagnetism might connect with gravity.

• 1:17:47Speaker 09

  Let's get a little, so as you hit the swinger limit, breaks space time. What happens vis a vis this fifth dimension?

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  We'll not.

• 1:17:56Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  We'll not touch on that. Leave it there, Jesse. Trust me, I'm not, leave it there. So that might connect with this guy Ferris Williams, who had this uh, 5D dynamical model. Um, and he was, so Oakie Shannon, who was this.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  I know Oak, I know.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  You know, he is, yeah. So he's this um, Los Alamos project manager who was involved in this advanced theoretical physics group with Hal Putoff and a bunch of people in the eighties and nineties. And they were kind of open source, trying to study, you know, what, how UFOs work. And he was like the closest guy who had like a theoretical model for describing this was um, this guy Ferris Williams, spelled with a P.

• 1:18:35Speaker 11

  What this five dimensional theory appears to do is tie together electromagnetism with gravity. And if you can do that, if you can take advantage of his expanded Maxwell equations, then maybe you can build an anti-gravity device.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I uh, we're going to have fun with this one. So I'm going to tiptoe this. So I told you that in 2024, I had a large database saved of documents, briefings, private messages on classified on J-Wix. And NSA came through and cleaned house and they basically shut down Intel Link and Intel Docs and uh, we had to go get new justifications. But uh, Oak Shannon was a massive conversation on the classified servers. And uh, I may have been participating upon that once upon a time.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  So people thought maybe he was involved in real UFO legacy initiatives?

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  I think people, well, this gets into the fun with ATIP, OSAP, UAP Task Force and the theory that a lot of that was red teaming, the legacy program. And figuring out, okay, because these groups are so selective that I don't want to call it brain drain, it's very group think. So create a third party, figure out what people can figure out with the internet and modern open source. Have new theories come through and feed it back in. You know what I mean? Like, oh, we're going to reverse it, feed it back in and let these people uh, Have some new ideas.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  So it was like, let's create this faux oppositional force, almost like a white hat hacker. Let's figure out vulnerabilities with the UFO legacy program, where they're missing, you know, what they're missing on certain things. Bring in some outside civilian eyes with the dirds from OSAP, where you had civilian scientists writing about really exotic propulsion modalities. And then it feeds back into the legacy program.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  Yes, and it's real fun because this goes back to ODNI and things I figured out after I went to the ICIG and I knew how to track down search and rescue ops. Because I did it for a living. I had to find fucking soft guys overseas, excuse my language, sorry for the F-bomb.

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  But I know a search and rescue tasker with imagery in sigint when I see it. And I know what is our guys and what isn't. And they were very interested in how I knew everything I knew, especially after I went to the IG and all the documents I had and imagery I had.

• 1:21:15Speaker 02

  Conventionally, most of the people I know believe that there is some element that all of that was getting fed back into legacy to run cover, which is, hey, these guys figured it out, not just on the inside classified, but on the outside. Here's what they're seeing, feed it back in to adjust appropriately.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Well, I look at the modern, you know, Arrow Director, and it's a former NSA guy. And so I think about what maybe a cynical version of the modern push for disclosure would be, and it would be like, let's get limited disclosure. We'll increase the surface area of this stuff. You get a bunch of civilian scientists, people from the outside newly interested in the topic, they're contributing all sorts of things. You have signals intelligence on all of this stuff. You can collate it and then you can search it, you can analyze it. And all of a sudden, you know, you crowdsource intelligence for the UFO legacy program, which remains intact, vital and newly immunized by the executive branch.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Fully agreed.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's tough. That's tough to, and wherever you go, you know, people, you know, seem really iconoclastic and irreverent, and then they, you know, they're, they're on the outside. And I think it's this really tough thing where you probably experienced this post blowing the whistle, post doing your first thing in this area. You get sort of softly surrounded by spooky people. And then it's like, join this board and join this thing. And then you turn into this like castrated version of your former self that was like really, you know, gung ho about like true disclosure.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  I, uh, you know, I, for me personally, I've been very blessed and lucky, which is, I've been very clear in this. I mean, this even goes back to ODNI. I told ODNI, I was like, look, I expect you guys to lie. What I want is I want answers for me. I want accountability. I want restitution for the whistleblowers. It's like, I don't give a damn what you guys do. Answer why you did what you did, hold the people accountable. Don't let the doctors and the GS 14s and 15s do this to anybody else. And then make sure we can live our lives with our families.

• 1:23:27Speaker 02

  Luckily, I kind of encapsulated myself where I've been very closed off. And even when you and I first talked, you know, it's never been an issue to get in touch with me. Everybody knows how to get in touch with me. But, uh, what you said in my experience with everybody else is very true.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  And that is very true. You get surrounded and it's even a concern now. Like I have friends who went to war with me against the CIA and DNI internally, like went to war and said, I can prove you're lying and did so.

• 1:24:02Speaker 02

  But you're absolutely right in that. And now, and then you get into the whole thing with like, how they use this against you is like, you bring it up, it's like, oh, you're paranoid. Well, no, I'm not paranoid. Why are you coming at me saying all of a sudden like, oh, join this board, join this group, come into this meeting? It's like, you never gave a damn until right now.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  So, yeah.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  Intent, my man, intent.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  Totally. Well, I think intent translates over time. And if you, you keep your intent pure, that's the best sort of defense against getting sort of rolled into those sort of weird quasi, quasi disclosure, but quasi, you know, I don't know, just weird initiatives.

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Because there's a lot of those weird initiatives.

• 1:24:46Speaker 02

  It almost seems like private business and parts of the IC are really deep into remote viewing and what people know and experiencers right now. That, that really seems like a big thing going on, almost as if people are expecting something to come.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, no, well, it's just speaking of expecting something to come. There's this constant talk in UFO disclosure world of some event happening in the mid 2020s. First it was like 2026, then 2027, now it might be 2034. And going back to actually that Lou Elizondo interview, I remember calling him out and saying, look, I think you, it seems like you know a lot more than what you're saying about all these topics and you're holding a lot in clearly. And he admitted that. And he sort of got uncomfortable and he was like, time is not a luxury that we can afford. What is imminent?

• 1:25:41Speaker 09

  Time is not a luxury that we can afford. We, we, the time has come, we need to start having the conversation collectively. We should, should have had it a while ago, but we, we really need to, we really need to start having the conversation.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  And I, I would love for that to not be such an opaque statement. What is, what does that mean? And, uh, you know, honestly, I tend to be skeptical of anybody saying, you know, here's a date, you know, something might happen by, by that date. But yeah, what, what do you think? Do you think that that might be? It also simultaneously, I'll defend that position and say, I can't explain modern disclosure. Maybe, maybe it's how I just explained it. And maybe they're cynically crowdsourcing some of this knowledge. But I can't explain it otherwise because they've created monsters in the form of people like UAP Gerb and other people who are just open source researchers that they didn't anticipate.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  You're, you're opening the whole Pandora's box of everything we discussed. So I am very fact-based, which is I am looking what is provable, what I know is true behind closed doors, what is classified. It's why I keep telling people, you know, Dave, Matt, myself, Lou, Stratton, Herrera, listen, listen, Barber, doesn't matter. If you went forward, put your name to paper and said, this is true, execute me if it's not true. It's not up to us to go and commit felonies to disclose the classified to the public. The public should be asking the government to say, yo, did they lie? As of right now, as far as I'm aware, not a single entity in the government has said any of us have lied.

• 1:27:16Speaker 02

  But, uh, the future and a future date and time is a luxury.

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  So I've tiptoed around this a lot and you and I talked about this. I think you know where I'm going with this, which is, I think my best guess, I don't know for sure, this is my best guess. I think something happened in the mid 2000s that changed the game. I think something showed up that we were not tracking. Maybe China had a breakthrough, maybe Russia had a breakthrough, maybe a third party made a breakthrough. Maybe something came here that we just didn't know. I think that based off of the way the government, the military views things, knowing they're tracking aircraft carriers, nuclear sites, it's not just the US, it's everybody. Like this is a global issue.

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  I think that, uh, it's not hard, especially knowing the way the IC works and knowing their capabilities and what they have on their end to assess based off of the classified, especially in the special access programs. We're seeing an increase, we're seeing these locations, something is happening. And what upsets me is I'm not a threat narrative guy. And we talked about this too. I, I hate to say it, but I'm going to go there. You know, people talk about, uh, Blue Beam and the hypothetical false flag narrative. I don't think that's going to happen, but of course I have a concern with it because I know this subject is true. I know these craft exists. I know this is happening. I know what they did to me.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  In the last year, they falsified evidence for me to go and get a death penalty for treason. They threw espionage against everybody else. Dave is talking about him getting hit with espionage. And they did that blatantly. Like they called up journalists and were like, yo, we're falsifying evidence. We're going to throw this dude in jail and throw these other guys in there. I'm not saying it's going to happen. My issue is I am searching for the truth like everybody else. I happen to know some truths. I'm trying to figure out like you are. And you and the rest of the people that watch this and the experiencers.

• 1:29:27Speaker 02

  All of us need to rely on each other and hold the government accountable. However, back to the future date. Lou is a very smart man. Lou is a very capable man and other people are very intelligent, capable. And I think the general consensus is overall, at some point, there will be a tipping point, no matter what. No idea the date, no idea what it is. The general consensus is, is you cannot keep this a secret. And I don't know when that snaps.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  The other thing that it seems like OD and I and Arrow maybe tried to use against you was this hieroglyphic thing that may or may not have been drawn that Jeremy again discussed. Where and hieroglyphics are a thing that show up on a lot of historical, you know, UFO crashes. So like you have Lonnie Zamora in 64, you have, you know, Roswell in 47. Of course, you have a lot of these rumors that, you know, hieroglyphics are on the, I think Kecksburg in 65 also were hieroglyphics as well.

• 1:30:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, here we go again, back to the way my brain works. So indigenous Americans hypothetically before Europeans came over and we became the society. If I took a Chinese or Japanese and Asian letter, it's a hieroglyph and I gave it to a Native American, they would see it as a hieroglyph. Now that doesn't mean it's extraterrestrial. It doesn't mean it's not human. It just means we don't understand it at the time it's happening.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Is there anything about this hypothetical hieroglyph that might hypothetically lead us to believe that this is non-human in origin and not just some ancient tradition?

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  I want to take a moment to thank one of today's sponsors, Zbiotics. I've been using their pre-alcohol product for years. And when the opportunity came up to work with them, I jumped at it because it's one of the few things I actually drink before a night out with friends. When it's time to celebrate a special event and that little decision I make before I go out, changes everything. Zbiotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to specifically tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration that's to blame for the rough days after drinking. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night. Of course, drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I have Zbiotics before my first drink of the night and I wake up feeling totally normal the next morning. As you'll know, if you're older than say the age of 28 or 29 is not usual. So go to zbiotics.com/jesse to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Jesse at checkout. Zbiotics is also backed with a 100% money back guarantee.

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money. No questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com/jesse and use the code Jesse at checkout for 15% off. As you know, we have a new starship. Of course, we have a healthcare center on board. Ask what my new favorite product in it is. I restore's Illumina face mask. This mask is like a med bed for your face. It's lightweight, super convenient, cordless and runs red, blue and infrared light therapy all at once. The same type of technology NASA studied for skin healing in space. It's safe for your eyes too, so you don't have to sit there like a statue. You can live your life.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  I've definitely had a few late nights reading about magnetic pole shifts, but with this mask, I look like I actually slept. Did I? That's debatable. It's warm, wireless, convenient and makes your skin feel super soft. And I restore's kicking off their summer savings with some very big discounts. Right now you can get the elite plus Illumina face mask bundle at an exclusive deal when you use code Jesse at i restore.com. That's Jesse, J E S S E at i restore.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  Is there anything about this hypothetical hieroglyph that might hypothetically lead us to believe that this is non-human in origin and not just some ancient tradition?

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  Oh man, you're really putting me on the spot, Jesse.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  You don't have to answer.

• 1:34:19Speaker 02

  I plead the fifth.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  Fair enough.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, so, okay, BAE also has a really interesting history. You know, there's a guy named Dr. Ron Evans there who talked about something called Project Green Glow. And he actually wrote a book about this.

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  I'm familiar.

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  Public.

• 1:34:38Speaker 02

  So this is all new for me.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really wild. What he's with this British dude. And he talked about they, how they studied anti-gravity for like 10 years and it was this big project. And maybe this is a cover, maybe this isn't, but he said that they, you know, figured out some interesting frameworks, but they kind of debunked everything. So.

• 1:34:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't, I don't necessarily buy that. I mean, this goes back into America and you notice Five Eyes been pretty quiet. Japan's popping off almost as if Japan's seeing stuff recently in the last five years or so.

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  I interviewed their former defense minister and he's pretty woke on UFOs.

• 1:35:13Speaker 02

  Good, he should be because I may or may not hypothetically know. But, uh, you know, people.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  Know something about Japan or hypothetically?

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, hypothetically.

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  But, uh, you know, you talk about BAE. People forget, everybody wants to talk about Lockheed Skunk Works. BAE has Falcon Works. That is BAE's version of Skunk Works. And BAE has joint ventures with Lockheed, with Skunk Works on material sciences, on engineering, on engines, on all of it.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  And Commander David Fravor, who was in the Nimitz incident, he works at BAE, I believe.

• 1:35:51Speaker 02

  I would, I am not aware of that. I believe you. For me, I don't want to blow up anybody's spot if that's true, but yeah.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Well, if I had experienced what he experienced in 2004, you know what I would do? I'd be like, I want to figure out how this stuff works.

• 1:36:07Speaker 02

  I don't blame him. I, again, I'm searching my own answers. As Jeremy said, Dylan's out here looking for answers. He's probably never going to get them.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Crazy topic. Okay. So you find out all of this stuff through people that, how much do you trust these people at BAE? Who you're having conversations with?

• 1:36:27Speaker 02

  I trust them, I trust them 100%. And then this is where this gets really problematic.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  You're sure they weren't feeding you?

• 1:36:34Speaker 02

  I'm positive because the problem is when I became a whistleblower, went to Arrow and the IG, they confirmed it was true.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  And how did they confirm that it was true?

• 1:36:42Speaker 02

  Because they wrote my memorandum for records called MFR. And what my triangle sighting was listed as unclassified. Everything else they immediately threw into a special access program. And this goes back to Tim Phillips interview with Chris Sharp, which again, we all know it, but I'm going to cite what is publicly available. Tim Phillips himself said triangles are real. They want to know where they're coming from. And we can get into reverse engineering and hypothetically our own programs that have been successful to some extent. Per James Lekatsky saying, yeah, we were semi-successful, but, uh.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Explain who Tim Phillips is.

• 1:37:19Speaker 02

  Tim Phillips was the, basically the director who took over after homeboy Kirkpatrick over there at Arrow. And Tim Phillips acknowledged, yes, Dylan drew two drawings and yes, Arrow was told what to classify because of a security classification guide. I would love for that security classification guide to be released publicly on why they hypothetically classified drawings that I can't talk about. This is per Jeremy, per OD and I committing a felony against people. But, uh,

• 1:37:51Speaker 02

  Arrow directly, indirectly acknowledged to me that this stuff was real on that side of the house. What you got to remember is after I became a whistleblower in 23, I knew where to look already. And I began ripping data legally, I want to be clear there, legally ripping everything as a CWMD expert. Cause these are considered a weapon of mass destruction and I took it upon myself to serve the nation. And, uh,

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  What does C stand for in CW?

• 1:38:26Speaker 02

  Counter weapons of mass destruction.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  So you had access to all this stuff?

• 1:38:30Speaker 02

  I had access to what I needed to outside of SAP. So when I was at DITRA, I wasn't SAP red, I was ACCM red. Yeah.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  So basically this is wild. So you get told some stuff by people you really trust. And then in 2023, you start to systematically corroborate all these things that they're telling you with accesses that you have. So you're literally looking into databases, government databases on UFO legacy crash retrieval programs.

• 1:39:02Speaker 02

  I don't want to say UFO legacy crash retrieval programs. I'm looking into databases and I know where to look and what the signatures are. So I can deconstruct legacy doing taskers. And then I can begin to pull reports and briefings from Arrow and reports about baiting craft and how to take them down, which matches things I may or may not have testified to prior that happened in the past.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  Can I take a best guess as to?

• 1:39:30Speaker 02

  You can do what you want, man. I'm going to sit here and do my best and I'll pull an org and be like, oh God, so go for it.

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  I mean, my best guess, and this is again, based on open source information in again, Lou's book and other, other things. Baiting UFOs with nuclear material and then taking them down with directed energy and high powered radar.

• 1:39:52Speaker 02

  That's a hell of a statement, Jesse. I think you're a very intelligent young man, sir.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  Well, it's almost feels like you kind of ubiquitously known at this point. That's, that's really wild. So you're looking at, wow. Okay.

• 1:40:08Speaker 02

  Oh, imagine, imagine that, uh, that was all turned over to ODNI too. So what is happening right now?

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Why don't they do anything about any of this stuff?

• 1:40:20Speaker 02

  I think my best guess is that they really don't want the crime aspect. I think that if we're gonna get disclosure, it's gonna be a, we can confirm we're not alone. Uh, give immunity to the past and try their best to cover up all the BS that happened.

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  Well, you must be of a split mind because you're probably aware that they're gonna shovel all sorts of actually very unsavory things into

• 1:40:43Speaker 02

  That's my, yeah.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  Quote unquote UFO legacy programs, including maybe, you know, MKUltra mind control.

• 1:40:49Speaker 02

  I fully, yes.

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Iran-Contra style stuff.

• 1:40:52Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  You know, like, uh, no habeas corpus hits done on people, you know, all sorts of shit. But simultaneously, you are one of the people that they are unfairly going after because you weren't implicated in any legacy efforts at all.

• 1:41:07Speaker 02

  To, to.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  So, so you must be of a split mind where you're like, I wanna be off the hook and to be able to speak freely and not in all these kind of crazy hypotheticals. But you also want people to be held accountable.

• 1:41:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I do. And again, this is, again, this is where this gets crazy is like, look, I, I want the best for everybody. I love these people. I get it. If you're a young woman or man in your thirties trying to have a family and you're making a hundred and twenty grand in DC. And your life revolves around clearances and doing jobs, you will never have that money. You'll, you'll never have a comparable job on the outside. I get it. But at the same time, I would wish these people would go and say like, look, almost conscientious objector status, which is like, I don't want to impact somebody else. I cannot put my name to this.

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  I would also say this, and this is where this gets real fun, is I have no idea how much I've been read into. Like, I got, my first read-ons were like eight hours. Uh, they gave us a stack of paper like this thick with sticky notes. It was like, sign here, here, here. They're like, you have fifteen minutes to sign or you lose your job. I have, to this day, I have, I've been read into so much stuff, I don't even know what I was read into.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  Right. So that's tricky, man. So you're, you're probably, there are just landmines everywhere.

• 1:42:30Speaker 02

  And here we are now. This is why I said, you know what? You guys wanna threaten me with treason, commit a felony against me? You guys wanna do this to me? I'm gonna do my best. I love my country. I'm gonna tell the truth.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Well, you're the.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  I'm not playing the game.

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  You're gonna be the people's champion, especially after that, you're the rest of this absurd story. So, so, so you look into all this stuff. And then at what point do you experience backlash and reprisals?

• 1:42:54Speaker 02

  Well, when I was at BAE, they were playing with my clearance and it's called an admin withdrawal. One of the things I know people wanna go and say is like, oh, of course, still, no, my clearance has never been revoked. I've never had a security violation. My clearance has always been intact. I've never failed a polygraph. Straight up, never, never been arrested. I've never had a thing done, not financial issues, none of it.

• 1:43:15Speaker 02

  When I was at BAE, it's called an admin withdrawal. So for the people who are in the IC, they're gonna hear this term, they're gonna laugh. It's called two years, use or lose. And what that means is that if you leave the IC, if you don't use your clearance within two years, your clearance goes into admin withdrawal. There is a way, and I know this because of my company, I worked for Aditra for six years. Awesome company, loved it, never had an issue, great bosses for my company, great bosses for Aditra, great contract lead bosses, love them, I would shout them out, but I'm very careful about people I know.

• 1:43:53Speaker 02

  So a way to get around this is what you do is, uh, OPM in the government, in CIA. What you do is you put in a request for an updated SF-86. And the way you do this is.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  What's an SF-86?

• 1:44:08Speaker 02

  That is your security background investigation. So you have to give over your financials, everyone you know, fill out all your forms, who you're married to, who you talk to, anybody overseas, which a lot of people in this space have violated who are currently working for government, and I'll leave it there.

• 1:44:26Speaker 02

  But what you do is you put that in and then you submit it to the security manager. But here's how you get around, and this is how you destroy a security clearance. You submit it to the old SSO. And the reason why you do it is if you're not working for the company or the agency at the time you request it, you have thirty days to fill it out. If you don't fill it out within thirty days, your security clearance is administratively withdrawn. And this just happened to me in contact in the desert. I was using my security clearance last June. So my security clearance technically is supposed to be good. Right now is undefined. Somebody put in a request to my former company for an updated SF-86.

• 1:45:07Speaker 02

  And because I don't work for them, that company does not owe it to me for me to fill it out. And now I'm in a status of undefined. So I would need another company to pick me up, refill it all out, go through the paperwork, go through the finances, pay people to do it. And that is a way to screw with people and their careers.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  So you're in this kind of liminal limbo space where your security clearance is technically good, but de facto, it doesn't work, it's bad. And as a result of that, you can't pursue other professional opportunities, you're kind of stuck at BAE.

• 1:45:43Speaker 02

  At that point in time in 2018, yes. So what they did is they disappeared me. It's, it's currently happening and now again. And this goes back to when you asked me the question about when did I start to see this? The problem is, is when I was at BAE between 2015 and 2018, they were playing this game. I worked for Aditra, January 2019 until 2024, summer of 24. Awesome. Love them. Great people. That mission was awesome. I am so upset that that job, that contract ended.

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  Once that contract ended in 2024, that's when all these games began again. All of these games with me began again. Going into polygraphs and they're asking me to disclose classified that I testified to with the IG, playing games with my clearance, playing games with my job recs.

• 1:46:34Speaker 01

  Why do you think, cause you, you experienced all this stuff like from 2015 to 2018 at BAE? You're learning all this sensitive UFO stuff. Yeah, maybe you're looking into databases later, but like, you haven't done anything treasonous with any of this information. And then after you served for five years on the Defense Threat Reduction Agency around counter WMD stuff, and you do that presumably pretty effectively because you do it for five years. At the end of that, there's still worried that you're a liability? I don't understand.

• 1:47:09Speaker 02

  Well, the problem is, is that, that last year is when I became a whistleblower. I went to the IGA, I went to Arrow, I went to Congress.

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:47:16Speaker 02

  So I.

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  Why'd you decide to do that?

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  Because I had heard from people who were whistleblowers, went forward. And this goes back to Dave and rest in peace, Matthew Sullivan. And I'm so fa- so sorry for his family. Like, this goes back to Vanguard. I, I wish nothing but the best for his loved ones. Like, I don't like this stuff, but, uh, why I decided to come forward was because people who were whistleblowers and affiliated with the UAP Task Force made a comment and said people's lives were in danger. And one of the people who was 100% read in and had their career destroyed two weeks prior,

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  got into another mess related to this as I interpreted it. I came forward because I wanted to save lives. I didn't give a shit about UFOs.

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  So you were inspired by the unfair retributions.

• 1:48:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:48:13Speaker 01

  Being hurled against current whistleblowers and you wanted to kind of jump in.

• 1:48:17Speaker 02

  That, and then also like, I have a thing and we talked about this, you know, I'm a Catholic. It doesn't mean all other religions are wrong. I just know for me it's right. I'm gonna have to answer for everything when I pass away. And I can't go and die and look God in the eyes and say like, hey, you know this shit is real to some extent. What did you do? Because if you would have said it, then you could have saved a life. That's why.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  Was there any particular testimony that kind of resonated with you most? Where you were, were you listening to a particular speech or congressional testimony?

• 1:48:48Speaker 02

  This was, this was all closed door behind government and classification, people who 100% were whistleblowers. I knew they had issues, like I said, and weaponized. I knew that there was some stuff they weren't telling the truth on. I didn't wanna risk it. And I know what, I know what I went through. I know what the specific individual who was 100% read in, hands on, what they went through while in government and then how they ended up with me bumping into these programs under my job at BAE.

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  I didn't want to risk it because I know it. I mean, like, break into the house, leaving mail on the table, taking computers, that whole thing.

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  Wait, so that was happening to you?

• 1:49:33Speaker 02

  That was happening to the people I knew who were in legacy back at BAE in 2018.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  Got it. And so you were almost worried about getting grouped in with them as well?

• 1:49:42Speaker 02

  Not just, well, a little bit. It was mainly, they had just lost their job two weeks prior in 2023. And I heard through the grapevine that that had happened. I know they were in legacy. I know what was done to them. I know their job was taken from them. They lost their job two weeks prior and I get told people are in danger currently who worked in it.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Got it. So you, and then you were getting worried about getting lumped in?

• 1:50:09Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  And did you worry at all that the searches you made in 2023 were linked with?

• 1:50:16Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  Any of the things that they faced?

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  No, because I've always, I've always assumed, and this goes back to OD and I, when they duplicated my phone, I, you know, behind the scenes, all of us just assumed that all of us are tapped, but like, I know I'm tapped. I mean, they duplicated my phone. I have always told people like, look, if you're talking to me, I will never say a word. I'm not recording. I'm not screenshotting. But this conversation, to be fully transparent, is not private because somebody else is listening, a third party. I understand that sounds paranoid, but it's not. It's real. Um, we know people, we know people that absolutely happened too. Um, provably. Um, but yeah.

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  Can you say anything more about that?

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  I don't want to.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:50:59Speaker 02

  It, it may go back to people I talked about under oath in front of Congress and, uh, how much I love them and care about them and how great of a person they are. I'll leave it there.

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  Okay. So you're, you're seeing, uh, retributions, um, against these people who you were having conversations with in the 2015 to 2018 time range in 2023-ish?

• 1:51:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:51:23Speaker 01

  And so you start to get nervous and you're like, and then also you're inspired by these other whistleblowers who've come out, people like David Grush. And you're like, I want to throw my hat in the ring.

• 1:51:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, so at that point, Dave had, I, I never talked to Dave. That's the other irony is the, I only knew one person who was involved in this. Now I knew that this whole thing existed, but you got to remember is where I'm at is so closed off from the rest of the IC. I am in my own little bubble, special access program, like different world. And even at Ditch, it's a different world because.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Why do you think they're going to lump you in automatically? Like, why do you think they're going to show up at your house?

• 1:51:59Speaker 02

  So it wasn't that. It was the person I, one of the people I know who were legacy, lost their job. And they were working in programs that are affiliated with it. And I thought that they may have been a whistleblower. So I wanted to make sure I came forward as basically protect them.

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  Got it. Got it. And did that person end up coming forward or no?

• 1:52:28Speaker 02

  plead the fifth.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  Okay, fair enough. So you, you come out and who do you go to first?

• 1:52:33Speaker 02

  I, uh, the person who made the comment that people's lives were in danger, I called them. I said, look, I know you have, I don't want to call it misrepresented. Uh, you have been a bit of a big fish story. You know what that means? Like, oh, I caught a bass that was this size and you tell everybody else it was this size, kind of extrapolating the truth. I was like, look, I know, I know this has happened. It's no fault of your own. Uh, but if people's lives are in danger, don't fuck with me, considering why I did for a living, which we kind of talked about already. I don't play with people's lives. I said, uh, you know,

• 1:53:17Speaker 02

  if you are telling me the truth, people's lives are in danger, do not lie to me because you will destroy my life, my family's life, my friends' lives. If people's lives are actually in danger, I need to immediately talk to somebody who can do something about it. And I was on the phone with this person for about an hour and I decided, you know what? On the off chance that is true, I gotta do something. And they had connected me with Congress. And that's March 3rd. I talked with Congress two or three days prior. And March 3rd, I was in a skiff with Congress staffers.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  Okay. And you're telling these congressional staffers almost everything you know about?

• 1:53:56Speaker 02

  Sixty, seventy. I told them what they needed to confirm that there was a program, it existed, some bad stuff happened, that this stuff is real. Yes.

• 1:54:04Speaker 01

  It's interesting because when you speak to these staffers, they're just super high conviction that, you know, again, it's like, either there's this, some ridiculous, you know, acting academy on the inside of the government. Or it's like, you know, this is just real. It's just real. Um, that's so wild. Okay. So you're, you told, you tell these congressional staffers and then what's the next step? Are they like, thank you for the information and then we'll look into it? Or like, what, what happens?

• 1:54:32Speaker 02

  I go in there, I tell them, I'm like, look, that's a whole nother story that one day I'll tell. I mean, I was, I was nervous. I was shaking. Obviously with what I've been through, I don't trust people. I'm like, I have to do this. I don't want somebody to die.

• 1:54:48Speaker 02

  But, uh, about.

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  Did you ever speak to Kirk McConnell by any chance? You don't have to say.

• 1:54:52Speaker 02

  I plead the fifth.

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  Okay. It's interesting because he, he, he literally said on my show, some of these guys come in, they're extremely earnest, they have credible backgrounds and they're, they're nervous and they're shaking.

• 1:55:06Speaker 12

  And, uh, it was almost in some cases palpable. I can recall, um, an instance where one, uh, source, uh, was visibly shaking. I mean, physically, uh, so stressed.

• 1:55:23Speaker 01

  And I'm sure you are not alone in that. If, if, if hypothetically you guys spoke, but that's why I remembered.

• 1:55:31Speaker 02

  I, uh, I think.

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  And he was a, he's a, um, Senate Intelligence Committee.

• 1:55:36Speaker 02

  He was. Kirk's, Kirk is an intelligent man. Um, Kirk has been around the block and I think Kirk ended up where he's at because, not because it isn't true. I think Kirk knows what's going on.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:50Speaker 02

  He knows what's going on.

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  He worked for Senator Jack Reed and Jack Reed's mentor is a guy, or actually the person who preceded Jack Reed was Claiborne Pell. Claiborne Pell was this senator who was long into UFOs. He's from Delaware, both of them were. And, um, you know, obsessed with, with, with UFOs. And he was Biden's mentor, which I find fascinating. So there's this like weird Biden UFO connection.

• 1:56:16Speaker 02

  And then back to 2023, who was president, when we were going through the IG and all these games, I digress, digress, no comment.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  Okay. So you're going, you're going to, uh, Congress, maybe the Senate, and you are spilling your guts. And then what do they say? Do they say, we're going to, we're going to help you? We're going to follow up on this or what happens?

• 1:56:36Speaker 02

  I, I go and tell them, I'm like, yo, this is what's going on. Uh, I clearly said enough because they already knew certain things specifically about what I was saying, uh, and the questions they asked and their responses were very telling. They knew some of the stuff I was saying. Um, and then they hit me up and they're like, yo, did you go to Arrow? It's like, no, I don't know how to contact Arrow. Is that what you need me to do? So they got me touching Arrow and I went to Arrow. Uh, that was the end of March.

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  And Arrow is the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office. And it is now kind of patently obvious that the first iteration of this under Sean Kirkpatrick was literally a fly trap for, you know, UFO information, probably had legacy ties. They would systematically lure in people like yourself who had information. They would collect all the information, often not even record the conversation, just kind of use it for, they didn't record yours.

• 1:57:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  There you go. And then, and then sometimes I, my guess is they might've destroyed evidence in certain cases. Because I've had a couple of people tell me they spoke to them and then their emails were deleted after the fact and weird things happened with that.

• 1:57:48Speaker 02

  I, I believe that. I mean, luckily for me, luckily for me, going through what I've been through and having dealt with this across government, I don't trust people. So I save everything. So, uh, when I got an email telling me, hey, we know this is wrong, correct it from Arrow. Uh, I saved that document and, uh, I made sure that was secured legally and readily available at phone call request. If you have, uh, TSSCI, I will send everything over to you with everything, but, uh, that doesn't surprise me what you said.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  That's awesome. So you recorded your conversation.

• 1:58:27Speaker 02

  I kept everything, Jesse, and this goes back to OD and I. OD and I got caught red-handed lying.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  And how so?

• 1:58:34Speaker 02

  So Arrow had sent over a false MFR, uh, said that was the true one.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  What's an MFR?

• 1:58:41Speaker 02

  Memorandum for record. It was supposed to be their version of what I told them. They acknowledged to me an email that it was wrong. They told me to write the corrections. Uh, this goes into the staffer they targeted. Um, I saved that. I saved the image. I saved every, I saved private conversations with people. Um.

• 1:59:04Speaker 02

  But I made the corrections and I saved my email back to them with confirmation saying they received it. When I went to ODNI under Kozlowski, and I'm not trying to throw him under the bus. I'm just telling you, these are the facts.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  Arrow was under Kozlowski.

• 1:59:19Speaker 02

  Right now, when I went to ODNI, September 10th of 2025, Kozlowski was director. Per ODNI DIG, Kozlowski sent my MFR, my legal signed document to ODNI saying, this is what I said. And they sent the false report. And luckily I saved it. So I can't tell you Arrow and Kozlowski lied. I can't tell you ODNI lied.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  So Arrow sent an entirely different report than the one that you?

• 1:59:49Speaker 02

  They sent the one that they knew was false. And I had the true one.

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  Sam, what, what, do you have any sense of the difference between the false and the true?

• 1:59:57Speaker 02

  I do. I, because I had to make the corrections. I had to sign it. I sent it back. I made the corrections. Yes, I do.

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  So what were the falsities included in this?

• 2:00:06Speaker 02

  I don't want to, I don't want to get into specifics because it reveals people, specific people. That was my concern. And then it also exposes staffers. It exposes very specific things. And then this gets into ODNI DIG calling Jeremy saying, I made a false drawing that never happened. That the report itself contradicts what ODNI was trying to get me on for treason. It's, it's a whole thing.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  So did they, they included details that you didn't include?

• 2:00:34Speaker 02

  100% yes.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  And then those details, did they happen to line up with things that you actually experienced?

• 2:00:41Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  They literally just inserted stuff.

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  They did. And that's why they called me and said, hey, Dylan, you need to make the corrections. And what they were doing was trying to get me to give more information about the people I knew.

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  They're fishing.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  Yes, 100%.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  Jesus Christ, man, that is dark.

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  I know. That's why I called Congress. I was like, yo, they're coming after you. And oh, by the way, I probably need an attorney because this is some messed up stuff.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  Have you ever, because, because Kozlowski seems like a reasonable guy?

• 2:01:07Speaker 02

  Maybe he is. I never talked to him. Just like Kirkpatrick, Kirkpatrick wanted to meet with me. When I got through with it, uh, the people I met with, and I think the lieutenant colonel, I think he's a good dude. I talked with him on the phone and him and I had a long conversation about this and they know the truth, Jesse. At this, behind the scenes, people know the truth. But, uh, they wanted me to go and talk to Kirkpatrick. And Kirkpatrick ducked me. He ducked me.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  It's so weird. I mean, I, I've interviewed now so many people like yourself and will like talk for hours on end. And like, you know, I'm, I'm getting a sanitized version of the testimony that Arrow is getting and wrapped up in hypotheticals and all sorts of things. And then, so, and, and I'm high conviction in what you're saying. You know, and then you have this long conversation with them, you give them everything. And then they insert details and give it to the ODNI and then the ODNI accuse you of treason.

• 2:02:02Speaker 02

  So here we go. So to be clear, I'll say it this way. They wanted me to name the people that I know that were working on the program. I refused to do it and they wanted the name of the program. I refused to do it because I didn't want to put that person in danger. Going back to why I went to Congress, because I thought their life was in danger. That's the problem. They wanted the people and they wanted the name. And if you are in these programs, those names change so many months. And that's how you can narrow down who spoke.

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  So why should anybody trust Arrow on a go forward basis?

• 2:02:39Speaker 02

  I mean, maybe they're doing better now, but the problem is, and this is my big thing. Back to what we were talking about is me being here is not just Vanguard, but I want ODNI held accountable. I want to know why Kozlowski and Arrow sent a false report to ODNI. I want to know why apparently per ODNI, Arrow falsified evidence against me. That is, think about that, Jesse. Remove UFOs. We talked about this. Remove UFOs. You have a disabled veteran with a clearance with polygraph. And the lead intelligence agency falsified evidence against me for treason, which is a death penalty. That's where we're at right now.

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  Can you say the specifics of how they falsified the evidence?

• 2:03:24Speaker 02

  Jeremy spoke about it. They created a fake forced drawing and I have the text messages. And so does multiple people have all the evidence to prove this happened. And I called out ODNI.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  Cause you drew things for them and they created another?

• 2:03:38Speaker 02

  That per ODNI, per DIG, who leaked classified information and medical records to journalists, Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp. Per them. Per the guy who called them committing a felony, he said, I created a forced drawing. I never created. I said, I want to come in and see it. And I was ghosted.

• 2:04:01Speaker 01

  So crazy, man.

• 2:04:02Speaker 02

  And here's a kicker.

• 2:04:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:03Speaker 02

  Ready? That forced drawing they're claiming I made? The problem is, is, and I have it, the forced drawing they're claiming I made contradicts what is in the Arrow report. And I called them out on and said, you realize you're contradicting yourself. Not only did I make, not make a forced drawing, by definition and, uh, classification, you are literally admitting to me right now, this never happened. Because verbally in the classification guidance and at the beginning of paragraphs, you'll have like secret no form, TS no form. What they said I made the forced drawing of is in writing, in text, not classified what they were claiming I drew.

• 2:04:49Speaker 01

  Oh, well, there you go. So you have evidence that not only are they, you know, acting in bad faith, but they're incompetent. And, um, I mean, the other thing that's so crazy about this, and again, this is coming from Jeremy is he's talking about them, you know, saying that like a hieroglyphic could possibly be

• 2:05:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, isn't that wild?

• 2:05:09Speaker 01

  Classified, which is like,

• 2:05:11Speaker 02

  Ready?

• 2:05:11Speaker 01

  How could you ever, you know, say that somebody's committing treason for drawing a hieroglyphic while simultaneously saying that the whole UFO program is fake? Where would the hieroglyphic be like?

• 2:05:22Speaker 02

  Hypothetically, that is per Jeremy with what was leaked to him illegally.

• 2:05:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:28Speaker 02

  By ODNI DIG. I can't tell you if that's true. What I'll tell you is back to Tim Phillips saying Dylan drew two drawings and there was a classification guidance and it was wrapped into a special access program. Where's the security classification guy to hypothetically classify that if it was true? These are the questions people should be asking our government.

• 2:05:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's absolutely hypothetically, yeah, you know, classifying a hieroglyphic while simultaneously saying all of this stuff is fake, just feels like you are really talking out of the, you know, two sides of your mouth there. It's so crazy.

• 2:06:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, right?

• 2:06:05Speaker 01

  It's crazy. And then the other, the other sort of interesting thing is Jeremy brought up this guy Chuck McCullough in your guys' interview. People don't know that Chuck McCullough used to be the, uh, intelligence community inspector general of the United States. And so the fact that he's, you know, spoken at Seoul and he's getting involved in UFO stuff and helping, you know, Jeremy and George out in certain situations. Obviously, you know, that shows that he's confident that this whole subject is real. Why would he move from, you know, multi, many years at the NSA? You know, many years, you know, at the highest levels of intelligence to, you know, representing these guys when it comes to the UFO topic, if he thought that this was all fake?

• 2:06:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I fully agree. And then right back to what Jeremy said with my interview, when all these felonies were committed against whistleblowers in the last year. When Chuck McCullough is on the phone with you and saying, well, they did it, the whistleblowers didn't. Legally, you are allowed to say this.

• 2:07:09Speaker 02

  What, what does that say? What does that say about our nation? This is why like, everybody wants to make this about extraterrestrials. This isn't extraterrestrials. It never was about extraterrestrials. This is about the foundation of our constitution.

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  It's about both.

• 2:07:22Speaker 02

  It's true. Valid. Valid. I have extraterrestrials loosely.

• 2:07:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that, I mean, the problem, I think with the whole quote unquote extraterrestrials thing is it's what Arrow uses as like a, a straw man sort of fall guy. When you use the word extraterrestrial, that's an analytical overlay. It's a conclusion that you're making based on an underlying data set, which is actually, you know, hard to jump to conclusions on. We don't have definitive evidence that they're from other planets, but we have definitive evidence that we didn't create these anomalous materials. You know, you have again, maybe some biologics, all these things.

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  Fully agreed. And you notice our government has never denied that second portion. They have only denied, we have no evidence of extraterrestrials.

• 2:08:02Speaker 01

  Yes. Okay. So you got really messed with by Arrow and by, you know, ODNI. I want to talk about this next saga of you're going to the VA.

• 2:08:15Speaker 02

  That, that goes all the way back to Langley and that goes back to when I was working at BAE.

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  Okay. So let's hear about this.

• 2:08:22Speaker 02

  You know, like I said, uh, they were doing some really weird stuff. Uh, I turned over the medical.

• 2:08:28Speaker 01

  Like mind control stuff?

• 2:08:29Speaker 02

  I don't want to say mind control. I want to be, again, to be fair.

• 2:08:33Speaker 01

  What happened to you?

• 2:08:34Speaker 02

  I mean, a lot of stuff. Basically the easiest way to say it with them is I got out of the air force and I witnessed a suicide.

• 2:08:44Speaker 02

  Dude drowned, multiple witnesses. I have the police report. I can literally pull out my phone, show you. I sent it to ODNI with the police report. I have the voicemail from the police on my phone. I can play it for you. I have the medical records, but basically what had happened was I got out of the military and the VA denied I ever did the job I did. And said, none of this ever happened, Dylan. You never did the job you did, which contradicts my EPR. Cause I had my enlisted performance review proving I was doing the job I was doing. And the VA said, I made that up too. And that's all my medical records, provable.

• 2:09:20Speaker 02

  But long story short, uh, witnesses suicide, police came, Pittsburgh search and rescue came. They had to pull the body out of the river nightmare dude. Um, but they had denied all of it happening. And then while I'm at the VA, uh, they tell me, oh, uh, you need to go into this PTSD program, which I'm not allowed to go, I'm not allowed to collect. So the way the VA works is if you have a disability, you have a financial and medical incentive to help you with it. So the VA is treating me for it while also denying me the medical and financial aspect of it. And they put me in this weird program back in 2016, 2017, where they're flashing images and air horns.

• 2:10:03Speaker 02

  I'm counting backwards from a hundred, from a hundred by seven, wild stuff, dude. To this day, I still don't know what it was about. Um, but just that crap and my medical records is just full of insane stuff. And I have all of them. Um, doctors have quit over it. I know one of the doctors filed a complaint. He was told to leave this insane stuff.

• 2:10:27Speaker 01

  What sort of testing are they doing on you?

• 2:10:30Speaker 02

  So at that point in time in 2016, 2017, I would go in and get hooked up to a pressure cuff. It was a polygraph. They would put the brain things on my brain, put me up to a pressure cuff, heartbeat. It was a polygraph. And then, uh, I would sit in a room in the back. There was the female doctor who was CIA. She was confirmed CIA. Uh, and then they had to do with an air horn who claimed he was an old retired army ranger.

• 2:10:57Speaker 01

  How do you know she was CIA?

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  She admitted it to me.

• 2:10:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:11:00Speaker 02

  Um, she actually, how I know is because she knew what I was doing for BAE and knew specifically where I worked and told me.

• 2:11:09Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:11:09Speaker 02

  So, uh, while that's happening, I'm in there and they're just, I, for an hour a day, I have to go in, uh, twice a week and there I get hooked up to this polygraph machine and there's a computer. And they're just flashing images. It's like a butterfly kid with a gun, car explosion, bunny rabbit. I have to count backwards from a hundred by seven. And if I went 193, 86, instead of saying 79, 78, the air horn would go off and I would have to restart and they would restart the flashing images.

• 2:11:43Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:11:43Speaker 02

  Dude. Swear to God.

• 2:11:46Speaker 01

  So weird.

• 2:11:47Speaker 02

  I, again, I don't know.

• 2:11:48Speaker 01

  What else, what are other examples that's?

• 2:11:50Speaker 02

  I mean, that, that's the biggest one. And then they put me on those meds that made me suicidal. And that's why my first doctor quit. The psychiatrist quit.

• 2:11:59Speaker 01

  So they put you on meds that you're convinced.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  I, I know for 100%. It is documented that is why the doctor quit. This is why I stopped going to the VA.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  What, what was the medication?

• 2:12:10Speaker 02

  Some SSRIs.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  And do you think that that was intended?

• 2:12:15Speaker 02

  I do, yes.

• 2:12:16Speaker 01

  Because SSRIs, I look, I'm very anti SSRIs myself, but I know people who are like.

• 2:12:22Speaker 02

  If it helps all the power to all the power.

• 2:12:24Speaker 01

  So I, all I'm saying is how, how do you know that the intention on?

• 2:12:27Speaker 02

  Because I never had a suicidal thought in my life.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:30Speaker 02

  And then all of a sudden, after like two months of taking them, I would wake up in the middle of the night and be like, oh, like, you know how you're thirsty? This is how I explained it. Like you wake up and you're thirsty and you need to go to the bathroom. I had a physical response after two months of taking them, having never had this in my life. And my physical response was commit suicide.

• 2:12:49Speaker 01

  Was this a generic SSRI or was it some unique?

• 2:12:52Speaker 02

  If you want an answer to it, I'll pull my medical records. I will tell you all the meds I'd been on.

• 2:12:57Speaker 01

  Well, I'm just, I'm curious as to how intentional that was. Cause I do think that is, can be a side effect, you know, the, the SSRI thing.

• 2:13:05Speaker 02

  They admitted it.

• 2:13:06Speaker 01

  And then I'm wondering, you know, if they were trying to mess with you and that was a big part of messing with you. Or if SSRIs just generally make you more impressionable and kind of softer and placate you.

• 2:13:17Speaker 02

  Could, but, but again, look at this in context of everything that's happening. I'm working with BAE with a full scope poly, doing the job I'm doing at BAE at the location I'm doing it. I'm in this weird ass program. They're putting me on these meds or denying I ever did the job.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Did you say you were depressed? Like, why did they give you the SSRI at all?

• 2:13:34Speaker 02

  Because they said I have PTSD, but they said I have PTSD for a job that they're claiming I never did. That's the problem. That whole thing, it's all in my medical records.

• 2:13:43Speaker 01

  So they claimed you didn't do the drone operator job?

• 2:13:45Speaker 02

  They claimed that I was, they claimed that I never did imagery for drones with the air force.

• 2:13:51Speaker 01

  Why were they claiming that?

• 2:13:52Speaker 02

  The fuck if I know, Jesse, this is my problem.

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  So they were like gaslighting you, saying you have PTSD.

• 2:13:58Speaker 02

  And then they were funneling.

• 2:13:58Speaker 01

  Take this pill.

• 2:13:59Speaker 02

  And, and go into this weird ass program, yes.

• 2:14:02Speaker 01

  And what was the program?

• 2:14:03Speaker 02

  That this whole thing with these flashing images, MRIs constantly, all of it. And meanwhile, they're denying all of my VA benefits.

• 2:14:11Speaker 01

  What else do you remember from that MRIs?

• 2:14:13Speaker 02

  Just me, I, I'm being told by the doctors, hey, we messed up, but you have to do all this to get your benefits. And oh, you bought a house. If you don't do it, we're going to withdraw your VA benefits for your home loan. And I'm just going through it while working for the government, doing everything I'm due, trusting the system.

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  So it's counting backwards from a hundred, going by seven each time and having images flashing in front of you is weird. And I don't quite understand how you justify that in some conventional medical, you know, uh, you know, this is some sort of checkup context. So what else did you experience?

• 2:14:47Speaker 02

  I mean, that was it, man. Like they put me in these weird programs. They were constantly having go and get MRIs. They were constantly having me meet with a therapist.

• 2:14:54Speaker 01

  Were they giving you any sort of extra sensory perception or pre sentiment tests? Like what's under this card?

• 2:15:00Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:15:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:15:01Speaker 02

  Not at all.

• 2:15:02Speaker 01

  Like that.

• 2:15:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:15:03Speaker 01

  But they were, there were weird experiments being done.

• 2:15:07Speaker 02

  There, that whole thing is odd because this goes back to intent. If you're going to put me in a treatment program, then you have to acknowledge that I need the treatment, meaning I have it. And they were denying that I had it. So why I'm in a treatment program when you're saying it doesn't exist?

• 2:15:25Speaker 01

  Any, any other details you remember from that?

• 2:15:27Speaker 02

  No, it was just, I'm going up there, working for BAE, doing all this crazy shit. And everybody's like, you don't exist. None of this happened, but, uh, you need to come here or we'll pull your house loan and you'll never get your benefits and treatment. It was bananas, dude.

• 2:15:41Speaker 01

  So strange. Do you look back at that period and think or speculate about some ulterior motive behind that medical?

• 2:15:51Speaker 02

  I mean, I do, cause I learned enough now.

• 2:15:55Speaker 02

  But again, here's the irony is going back to this whole subject.

• 2:15:58Speaker 01

  Well, what do you think it was?

• 2:16:00Speaker 02

  I plead the fifth. I, I don't want to get into it because I know enough. And then we're going to get into people's names and programs and things that are out there.

• 2:16:08Speaker 01

  But do you think it was like adjacent to something that we all know, like MKUltra, like some mind control?

• 2:16:13Speaker 02

  I, I think it was adjacent to something that our government has been studying. And this goes back to me having out processed with the Navy and then talking about my UFO experience at Langley. I, whatever that all is, it was all connected. Um, no, I'm not saying they did it because of it. I know it was connected. There's no doubt in my mind. Um.

• 2:16:36Speaker 01

  So you think they were systematically testing experiencers?

• 2:16:40Speaker 02

  Well, that's documented. You have the leaked phone call with Green and Kay Randall, what's her name?

• 2:16:45Speaker 01

  Kay Randall May.

• 2:16:46Speaker 02

  Kay Randall, you have that leaked phone call where they are literally saying, we are testing veterans, military, government officials, who have had experiences and in their own words, hybrids. I want to be clear, this is not me saying it, that is them saying it. In 2017, while I'm going through this, that's happening. And I want to be very clear and very fair. I'm not saying everything I encountered is because of my sighting, but everything I encountered happened.

• 2:17:12Speaker 01

  And Kit Green ran the CIA's weird desk and, uh, it's very sort of mysterious.

• 2:17:18Speaker 02

  Him and put off and a homeboy over in Israel, the remote viewer dude, they're all referencing that leaked phone call. Yeah.

• 2:17:27Speaker 01

  Who's the, in Israel, the remote viewer?

• 2:17:29Speaker 02

  Not Ingo. Yuri Geller, yeah. They name him by name. They want to put him in MRIs. They want to remote view him while he's in the MRIs, all of it.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  Hmm. And do you know that this turned into some sort of formal program?

• 2:17:41Speaker 02

  I have no idea.

• 2:17:42Speaker 01

  An op and comment.

• 2:17:42Speaker 02

  No idea.

• 2:17:43Speaker 01

  Interesting. Hmm.

• 2:17:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:46Speaker 01

  Crazy. Did you ever have any contact with that CIA doctor after that?

• 2:17:52Speaker 02

  In fact, well, this goes back after I left the IG and now right back to Vanguard again. Uh, when the IG stuff went down, I had called the staffer, the attorney. I was like, dude, you gotta get us help. This is insane. Like you're telling me this is all true, that everything that happened that I said is true. I'm never allowed to talk about my childhood. Like, what am I supposed to do with my life? And they had said, uh, well, you know, Dylan, you have VA benefits. Go up there and talk to them. And I was like, I'm not going to the doctors who did this to me. They still work there. I'm not doing it. Um,

• 2:18:31Speaker 02

  so basically I take no meds. I use nicotine and, uh, I do my own thing. I don't do drugs. I, I don't even take CBD. I take nothing. And, uh, luckily I have good friends like you and Jeremy and George and other people I met with Oregon and contact and the other whistleblowers. And we're all kind of using each other as therapists to get through this until disclosure happens and we get justice.

• 2:18:56Speaker 01

  But you've experienced all sorts of, uh, targeting and reprisals beyond, you know, even just that. Your brake lines were cut and you've experienced stalking.

• 2:19:06Speaker 02

  So per the police, stalking, not so much, uh, but per the police, yes, my brake lines were cut 100%.

• 2:19:15Speaker 01

  And what, what happened there?

• 2:19:16Speaker 02

  Nothing. I was out. It was right after I left BAE. I got a phone call from somebody I worked with at BAE, invited me out. He disappeared for an hour. He comes back and he's like, hey, I'm going to go. You want to go? I get in my car and my, our car wrecks. I have a police investigation. I called them, I'm like, come pick me up, do a breathalyzer, blood work me. I go through the whole process. And they come back three days later and they're like, yo, your brake lines were cut. It happened.

• 2:19:42Speaker 01

  Do you have, uh, like a dead man switch, given all the?

• 2:19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. I, I said it in weaponized. I told, the very first conversation I had with Jeremy, I said, Jeremy, I don't know you. You don't know me. I'm going to go become a congressional whistleblower. If anything happens to me,

• 2:19:58Speaker 02

  I will have my dead man switch triggered. I'm telling you it's true. Yeah, of course I do.

• 2:20:06Speaker 01

  Do you think that in UFO legacy context, people can call in craft with their minds?

• 2:20:13Speaker 02

  I think that, okay, so now we're gonna get into the fun hypotheticals. I do believe remote viewing is true. I do believe in prophetic dreams. I do believe in consciousness projection. You know, we talked about this. Everybody who knows me knows why I avoid the will. And the reason why I really avoid the will is because I'm already fighting enough on stuff I've already proved behind the scenes, provable.

• 2:20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, I believe that's true. The problem I have is I think people have pushed best what is true to something that isn't, so they can diminish what the truth is.

• 2:20:51Speaker 01

  Interesting. Yeah, so there are ways to stigmatize the truth by getting

• 2:20:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's a psyop, 100%.

• 2:20:57Speaker 01

  But you, do you think people can call in UFOs with their mind?

• 2:21:00Speaker 02

  I think they can connect to them, absolutely.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:03Speaker 02

  My issue is, is that I think you can connect to them. I think it's true. But my issue is, is

• 2:21:10Speaker 02

  if you can connect to them and communicate to them, bring them within 50 feet, have them land. Like, do that instead of having lights 200 miles out. Bring them in. If you're communicating, if you're in touch with source and all this new age stuff, bring them in.

• 2:21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:21:27Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 2:21:28Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:21:31Speaker 01

  Do you think what you saw was non-human or ours?

• 2:21:34Speaker 02

  I know, I know for a fact it was not human-made and not ours.

• 2:21:38Speaker 01

  How do you know for a fact?

• 2:21:39Speaker 02

  Because Arrow proved it when they listed it as unclassified and then classified the other drawings dealing with unidentified, unknown origin drawings and technologies. If it was ours, they would have classified it, and they didn't.

• 2:21:51Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, fair enough. And even if you don't trust them and you think they're bad faith actors, they still would classify, there's still extensions.

• 2:21:59Speaker 02

  So here we go, back to intent. I view everything from intent. Why go and classify the other stuff and not classify that?

• 2:22:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it doesn't make sense.

• 2:22:08Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:22:09Speaker 01

  I mean, unless it was like, we, they know that they've lost all trust. And so the 4D chess game would be to not classify it because they know that we'd talk about it as if it was, you know, definitely not human when in fact it was ours.

• 2:22:24Speaker 02

  Here we go, back to earlier, when you were talking about 4K videos and bodies and everything. I, I know for a fact there are cell phone videos of triangles undeniable, end of discussion, ends all conversation. The reports are there, it is there.

• 2:22:38Speaker 02

  So they're not, that, they won't release those videos.

• 2:22:42Speaker 01

  Sure, got it.

• 2:22:43Speaker 02

  So you get what I'm saying?

• 2:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So those inherently, if you saw one of those, they would have to be classified.

• 2:22:48Speaker 02

  And now, now you get into the fun too, which is hypothetically, uh, we have imagery satellites around the world. Hypothetically, we're seeing other countries with the same stuff over their sites. You go, again, I, I know, Arrow would have, if I walked in there and started talking about a ninth gen airplane that's being tested, they would have classified immediately. This goes back to by law, what Arrow, Arrow had no original classification authority. They had to go to the IC and go to the private companies and say, hey, this is what they said. What is the classification per your guidance? So all of those places, based off of my testimony, would have been documented by them with a

• 2:23:30Speaker 02

  classification guidance saying, that was one of ours, classify it. They didn't do it.

• 2:23:35Speaker 01

  Do you think there are any non-governmental, transnational organizations that deal with UFOs?

• 2:23:41Speaker 02

  100, yes, I do.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  And do you have any sense of who these organizations are?

• 2:23:47Speaker 02

  I have ideas, but I don't want to get into it. Again, it's hypotheses.

• 2:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:51Speaker 02

  You know, I'm very, I, like I keep saying, I'm looking at this from a fact perspective, trying to find answers myself, but I think all of us would be naive, like we talked about last night, which is, there has to be some type of agreement minimally globally, if not with whatever we're encountering, because China or Russia could blow up America's spot. We talk about Operation Midnight Climax. We talk about all this. You look at social media manipulation. China or Russia could literally embarrass the US with what they know on this, and they don't do it. So now back to intent, why? So there has to be some type of transnational agreements, organizations, has to be.

• 2:24:33Speaker 01

  And some kind of agreement between all terrestrial governments amongst themselves, and maybe with the non-human intelligence as well.

• 2:24:43Speaker 02

  First section I fully agree with, second section, I'm 99.9% sure. I don't want to go there because I can't tell you it's 100% true. I'm pretty sure it's true, man.

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  You said you think that UFO abductions, alien experiences, you know, people kind of being able to see beyond the veil a little bit and make contact runs in families?

• 2:25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, genetics. I, I, I do believe that. But here we go. I'm glad you bring up this. Back to the Kona Blue documents. So, uh, when were the Kona Blue documents, uh, made originally, not the class? What was that, 10 years ago?

• 2:25:18Speaker 01

  Two years, and then I thought it was late, earlier than that.

• 2:25:21Speaker 02

  Okay, no, that makes it even better. Okay, so hypothetically, back to Kona Blue and remote viewing and all this stuff. In those documents, the United States government is admitting they have the capability to give you false memories, mess with your brain, make you do things. And that's without drugs. They're saying the capability is now presently available, not just for the US, but for others. And I hate to break it to people. The technology that we're all using in the public sector, that's been done years ago in the pri, in the IC, DARPA, IARPA, the rest of them.

• 2:25:58Speaker 02

  One of the things, again, that I'm trying to figure out is, if you have an experience, and this goes back to discernment and back to consciousness. Well, hypothetically, if the CIA is able to manipulate your brain while you're sleeping and play with your brain, how do you know it's the CIA and not an NHI? And oh, by the way, Russia and China are now able to do it. And oh, by the way, this was a private company. How, how do you go and unpack that?

• 2:26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an extremely complicated topic because you have three known things that humans have looked into. Anti-gravity propulsion, or gravity manipulation, whatever you want to call it, MKUltra, or mind control. And then the third thing would be directed energy.

• 2:26:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:26:47Speaker 01

  And you have all these things, and all of these things are really hard to attribute in a terrestrial context. You know, only up until the last couple of years has the intelligence community, people from the CIA and NSA, started to say that Russia and microwave weaponry is responsible for this Havana syndrome and vestibular destabilization that a lot of, you know, diplomats have experienced all over the world. You have a really interesting book called The Controllers by a guy named Martin Cannon.

• 2:27:15Speaker 02

  Oh, check that out.

• 2:27:16Speaker 01

  He talks about how, um, MKUltra was used, or the alien abduction thing was used as a smokescreen for MKUltra.

• 2:27:24Speaker 02

  I believe that.

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  And so I'm sure that, you know, and that doesn't make the abduction thing not true. You know, in fact, it makes it more likely that there is an underlying reality to that. And that's why it's a good smokescreen in, in certain contexts. And then you have anti-gravity, you know, propulsion, you know, people like Thomas Townsend Brown, who I'm as high conviction in, in anything when it comes to this story. And it seems like that's how the crafts fly. So it's an extremely convoluted and complicated landscape where you never know what you're looking at.

• 2:27:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, you know, I think, you know, let's, let's have the fun. We talked about the car scenario. The first conversation I had with you was about this. You and I went over this. I was like, Jesse, I think it's everything and stuff we still don't understand or know. Like, all of this can be true, and I believe it all is true. And the problem is, is that my opinion is, the reason they're keeping this a secret is because so criminal, so messed up, so much money.

• 2:28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:22Speaker 02

  It is embarrassing. And then this goes back to legalities, right? Back to ODNI and what they did to us. Those are felonies. But by law, you have executive orders. I wish I could name it off the top of my head right now. But I had to do security, everybody in the intelligence community has to do training every year on the classified system. And the system, the law literally is, you cannot classify information for embarrassment, criminal activity, and financials. They're doing it. It's happening. For, so I brought this up. George Knapp, under oath in front of Congress, which can be used as evidence with the Securities Exchange Commission, literally said Lockheed Martin had a craft, they were gonna sell it to Bigelow, and Glenn Gaffney with the CIA stepped in.

• 2:29:06Speaker 04

  I have confirmed on the record that Robert Bigelow and a trusted colleague from OSAP met with and negotiated with senior executives at Lockheed Martin and hammered out a deal wherein Bigelow's company, BAS, would receive a quantity of unusual material that had been stashed away and protected at a facility in California. That material was not made here.

• 2:29:29Speaker 13

  Are any of you willing to name specific gatekeepers within the root cell of the UAP SAP Federation?

• 2:29:35Speaker 04

  I have a name for you.

• 2:29:37Speaker 13

  Go ahead.

• 2:29:37Speaker 04

  Glenn Gaffney, CIA.

• 2:29:40Speaker 13

  Glenn Gaffney, CIA.

• 2:29:41Speaker 02

  Where are the attorneys to sue Lockheed Martin with the Securities Exchange Commission?

• 2:29:46Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:29:47Speaker 02

  Okay, so now here we go. Even even if the attorneys go and sue and you want to say it's a classified law. Well, guess what? You just admitted they had a craft.

• 2:29:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:29:56Speaker 02

  So where is it? Where is everybody in this? You you want to whistleblowers? We came out, we stuck our necks out, we threw caution to the wind in service for God, family, country. And here we are. Dave's Dave's hands are tied behind his back up in Congress. Burleson and Luna and Moskowitz, everybody's trying to do this. Where is everybody?

• 2:30:17Speaker 01

  Well, that's what strikes me most about this whole topic is it almost feels like there's like a paranormal or parapsychological control mechanism around not letting this stuff out because if you think about it, if the claim is that, you know, the US government has a multi generational crash retrieval program. We have saucers or if not saucers, parts of saucers and and other, you know, geometries, triangles or whatever in hangars.

• 2:30:43Speaker 02

  And pole.

• 2:30:44Speaker 01

  Bodies, you know, all these things, right?

• 2:30:48Speaker 01

  Then the interesting question to me is like, how come very few smoking guns end up rising to the top in the age of social media and smartphones in the open source context? And there are easy answers to that where it's like, okay, only a few crashes have happened. It really seems like it's this directed energy plus nuclear thing. And so it's all kind of, you know, concentrated in certain areas. But I think there are crashes outside of that as well.

• 2:31:16Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 2:31:16Speaker 01

  So so

• 2:31:19Speaker 01

  you get into this weird thing where it's like, are the is the non human intelligence in control of the cover up too?

• 2:31:25Speaker 02

  My opinion?

• 2:31:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:27Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yes.

• 2:31:28Speaker 01

  Have you ever talked to anybody in an incredible position in the government? Who seems to have hinted that humans aren't in charge?

• 2:31:38Speaker 02

  The ICIG did it.

• 2:31:40Speaker 01

  What did they say?

• 2:31:41Speaker 02

  I want to respect them. But the ICIG did it with me.

• 2:31:45Speaker 01

  So the intelligence community inspector general told you that humans are not in charge?

• 2:31:49Speaker 02

  They extremely hinted at it, yes.

• 2:31:51Speaker 01

  Holy shit. That is crazy.

• 2:31:57Speaker 02

  They they hinted at it, yes.

• 2:31:59Speaker 01

  That is that is insane. That's insane. And then and then you think of the fact that, you know, Chuck McCullough is involved in this topic and really helping out on the whistleblower side. And he was the first intelligence community inspector general.

• 2:32:13Speaker 02

  Chuck is a beast. And I think we talked about this last night. You know, I have nothing but respect for everybody who gives a damn about our nation and who cares to serve it. God, family, country.

• 2:32:23Speaker 01

  Dude, that is wild that the intelligence community inspector general in this role is basically the judiciary for the intelligence committee, right?

• 2:32:33Speaker 02

  They are, but keep in mind.

• 2:32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:35Speaker 02

  That's the IC, not the CIA, not DOA.

• 2:32:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:32:39Speaker 02

  You gotta remember, those are separate IGs, just like the DoD IG is separate.

• 2:32:43Speaker 01

  So what would the IC be privy to that might allow them to say with authority that humans aren't in charge of the government?

• 2:32:51Speaker 02

  I again, I want to be very careful and very respectful. This goes back, if you listen to the weapon, see again, I'm Jeremy and George and I and Matt, all of us, all of us have said things and laid groundwork for years to come. Because we have no idea, we could die tomorrow. So we're all trying to get this out and have a baseline and be respectful and not go crazy like I'm parting with aliens in Washington DC crap.

• 2:33:18Speaker 02

  What I said in Weaponized was you can tell somebody knows something based on the questions they ask you. You respond and the next question they ask you is very telling. So hypothetically, Jesse, let's say, let's say you ask me a question and I say, yeah, I've seen gray beings, traditional grays.

• 2:33:38Speaker 02

  If I said that to you, your next question is be like, when, where, how? Hypothetically speaking, let's say I say that and your next question is, well, where did they come from? And then I respond, well, you know, I don't have an answer. I think they've been here a long time. And the very next statement is, well, who do you think is running the show?

• 2:34:00Speaker 02

  Hypothetically, let's say that happened.

• 2:34:02Speaker 01

  That's wild. That is so crazy. And it's especially crazy, given that, you know, David Grush gave them all sorts of documentation from his experience on the UAP task force where he looked comprehensively.

• 2:34:18Speaker 02

  With 40 witnesses. Let's let's be clear, Dave brought 40 witnesses.

• 2:34:21Speaker 01

  Who were on the program.

• 2:34:23Speaker 02

  And Matt and I were not a part of that. Lou was not a part of that to the best of my knowledge. Stratton, Lakatsky, this whole list.

• 2:34:29Speaker 01

  And they called his his complaint urgent incredible.

• 2:34:32Speaker 02

  They did.

• 2:34:33Speaker 01

  And so they're calling his complaint urgent incredible. They're telling hypothetically, they're saying, who do you think is running the show? Which is wild.

• 2:34:44Speaker 01

  This brings me to another question. You're close with Matthew Brown.

• 2:34:47Speaker 02

  I am. I love Matt.

• 2:34:48Speaker 01

  Who is really interesting, fascinating case and seems like a very deep thinker. And another guy who's very earnest, who got totally screwed with. And there are all sorts of reprisals, you know, things that I think at one point people called him super anti Semitic, like these one of these government agencies.

• 2:35:06Speaker 02

  And I did, yes.

• 2:35:06Speaker 01

  So they called them OD and I dig again. And he said something very interesting on Weaponized. He said that humans are a resource.

• 2:35:14Speaker 02

  Well, that's this gets into religion theology. So I want to be very. You know, we talked about this, I want to.

• 2:35:21Speaker 01

  But do you have any evidence to believe that humans might be a resource?

• 2:35:24Speaker 02

  I don't, but this goes, so again, you want to have fun? Let's have some fun, what we talked about. So let's go here. We brought up, I brought up the hypothetical again, I'm not saying this is true. And this isn't like hypothetically, this is a real hypothetical. Let's say that you and I have a soul. We die and based off of current humanity, you have Neuralink, you have CRISPR, you have all of these technologies. Like we discussed, 100 years ago, humans compared to today are the same. In 100 years, you can genetically modify a human to be 190 IQ, six foot seven, dunking a basketball that's 12 feet high, connected to Neuralink, controlling radios and stuff with your mind.

• 2:36:08Speaker 02

  Like that technology exists now. It exists now, it can be done.

• 2:36:15Speaker 02

  Last night we discussed, and this goes back to UFO subject. Hypothetically, if we have that technology now between robotics and AI, you don't really need humans. So if you're in advanced civilization and you're able to do this and you're 1000 years ahead of us. Well, there's a theory, what we discussed as a hypothetical, you would want to create a entity and a testing program to operate in shades of gray to know who you are at your soul, at your heart. And when we die is like, okay, this person has these characteristics they can fill in. And then, oh, by the way, because we're monitoring humans here, because we are humans at a soul level, just in the afterlife. I bring all that up.

• 2:37:00Speaker 02

  I have never seen evidence for it. Again, I'm a Catholic. So I believe in sainthood. I I make no declaration on ghosts to heaven or hell. I make a declaration on, I want to be a saint. Matt and I have had deep theological discussions over many years. We do it all the time.

• 2:37:21Speaker 02

  I know where Matt comes from. And then you get into Nazi Christianity and the African churches and early Judaism and all of it. And Book of Enoch, which people really need to understand why that was left out of the Bible and the Catholic Church's stance on it and Judaism's stance on it. But I've never seen it. I mean, you're getting into a conversation that would be five hours, Jesse, on theological.

• 2:37:44Speaker 01

  Do you think that the Book of Enoch holds any truth?

• 2:37:47Speaker 02

  I absolutely do.

• 2:37:49Speaker 01

  The watchers came down and mated with man and created demigod Nephele.

• 2:37:54Speaker 02

  I'm not going to make a declaration on that. What I will say is this, I'm a Catholic, per Catholic teaching, per Malachi Martin, who was one of the first people to read the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Catholic teaching is the Book of Enoch and basically the Apocrypha. The reason it was excluded is not because it's false. It wasn't because it wasn't 100% true. Their teaching is is that you have to be 100% true to be canon. And because those books were not 100% true, it doesn't mean that there isn't truth in there. In fact, they say there's truth in there. It's just certain things were not 100% true.

• 2:38:32Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know. It's kind of funny. It feels like an arbitrary dividing line. I mean, the New Testament is very supernatural itself.

• 2:38:38Speaker 02

  I don't disagree, man. And then you get into the Deuterocanon, people understand this is the division between Protestants and Catholics.

• 2:38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:45Speaker 02

  And why the King James Bible took out the Deuterocanon and Maccabees, it's a whole thing. This is like, you and I could do three episodes on theology of the Bible.

• 2:38:55Speaker 01

  Well, it is really fascinating. So if you combine a couple of arguments that seem hard to argue with, you end up in a very weird ontological place about how reality works. And so I'm going to give you the two arguments. One is that it's most likely that we are not living in base reality. You've heard Elon Musk say this, Nick Bostrom, this famous Oxford philosopher is, you know, famously discussed that we're in the simulation and that's likely why, because we're creating simulations now. So we are likely the product of a simulation. It's very easy to understand and honestly, it's kind of hard to argue with.

• 2:39:28Speaker 02

  Don't disagree.

• 2:39:28Speaker 01

  So you take that at face value. Then you take something else at face value, which is the progression of technology and the idea of technology as a forcing function for good and evil.

• 2:39:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:39:41Speaker 01

  So technology is, you know, the history of tech is the history of humans gaining lower latency, higher bandwidth powers to manipulate reality.

• 2:39:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:39:50Speaker 01

  And so what you end up with logically, this is logically, is the ability for a kid to blow up the world from his bedroom.

• 2:39:57Speaker 02

  Yes, and you see it now. You see it now. Our generation, we grew up with the internet, Jesse. This is one of the things, real quick, I don't mean to cut you off. Again, we need to rethink everything we understand. I grew up when YouTube started to become known. I can go and go and get a PhD, all but dissertation. So PhD, ABD, right now, I can go through all the Harvard classes on multiple degrees. I'm not paying it. The professors are putting it out there. I can literally get all these engineering degrees, physics degrees, it's out there. And oh, by the way, AI is out there. And if you know how to manipulate it, what you just said is true. And if you're a 13 year old kid, that's 170 IQ, you can literally, if you have the time and the intelligence,

• 2:40:42Speaker 02

  you can create everything around you and have. Fifty years ago, a hundred years ago, what Einstein took 25 years to do.

• 2:40:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:40:50Speaker 02

  At your fingertips.

• 2:40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, I mean, the internet is a very wide search space. And it's a, there's a lot of information, you know, there. And when it comes to combination, when it comes to conciliance and interdomain insights, like turning, you know, fire to electricity or a horse to a car, that still requires human innovation.

• 2:41:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:41:11Speaker 01

  But when it comes to combination and search problems, large language models, transformers are amazing at them. They're so much faster than humans. And so if you are on one of these things and you're talking about, you know, create some off the shelf nerve agent or, you know, create some, you know, new pandemic and these are the variables or whatever. This is freaky, freaky shit, but this is, this is happening. Okay. So, so my point is, so you take the Nick Bostrom simulation stuff, you take the fact that we, you know, technology is, is in, you know, exponentially progressing and, and progressing in, in humans' ability to like do destructive shit in the world, but also really good stuff, too. And so, you know, it's this forcing function, like I said, then you end up with this sort

• 2:41:56Speaker 01

  of, okay, we are in a simulation that is a testing ground, which dovetails with all religions.

• 2:42:02Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 2:42:02Speaker 01

  And we are being tested based on virtues, you know, patience, you know, goodness, you know.

• 2:42:11Speaker 02

  Love.

• 2:42:11Speaker 01

  Love, of course.

• 2:42:12Speaker 02

  Hate.

• 2:42:13Speaker 01

  You know, all, all of these things. And if you pass the test, then you end up either in the kingdom of heaven or hell. And you could actually instantiate, instantiate the kingdom of heaven or hell as, you know, heaven is this place where tech is used for like infinite abundance. And then hell is this place where it's used for like infinite, constant destruction. And so you, you end up with this like crazy forcing function in the afterlife. If you literally just take those two things at face value, which are very hard to logically argue with.

• 2:42:44Speaker 02

  Fully agreed. Applause.

• 2:42:46Speaker 01

  Fully agree. And, and then you go read Plato and you're like, who are the guardians? And why are we in a cave? And why are select people being dragged out of the cave into the light? And then why is the light blinding and painful, you know, but also enlightening on some level? Like, it kind of sounds like you're being dragged into that, into that wider, you know, possibility space.

• 2:43:06Speaker 02

  My opinion is fully agreed. This is why, again, like, I am one, there are, I, I know things for a fact, I'm gonna say this, and people behind the scenes, and this is gonna resonate, I'm actually choking up about to say this. Keep loving your heart, be a good person, tell the truth, what you do here matters, you're an eternal being who lives forever. It's up to you. I know those things are true.

• 2:43:31Speaker 01

  Speaking of which, tell me about Paul Thigpen and what he meant to you.

• 2:43:44Speaker 02

  He was a saint.

• 2:43:51Speaker 02

  I miss him every day.

• 2:43:53Speaker 01

  And who was he?

• 2:43:55Speaker 02

  Uh, he was a Catholic PhD. He was a great man. Fuck, I'm gonna cry. I am sorry.

• 2:44:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:44:04Speaker 02

  You know, he, uh, he was, he was more into like new age mysticism and stuff as a kid. I think that's fair to say. And, uh,

• 2:44:15Speaker 02

  he, uh, he encountered this stuff, the will and everything else. And, uh, the will led him to search for truth. He found his way into Catholicism. And just like me, he never told anybody, like, it is your job to convert. It's, it's, I love you, I will do anything for you, be a better person. Um, damn, Jesse, you hit me hard, man. Um, he, he means the world to me. I miss him every day.

• 2:44:44Speaker 01

  And he was one of these amazing thinkers who I think he thought about UFOs in the religious context, but he wasn't also a proselytizer. He wasn't sort of an evangelist of his own views. He would just, was, I think, a very deeply thoughtful, thoughtful guy. And, uh, you know, wasn't, wasn't very shrill. You off, we're, we have an abundance of shrillness. And you have, in the UFO conversation where people are so sure of themselves. And, uh, he just seemed to really, you know, inquire earnestly.

• 2:45:16Speaker 05

  But the truth is, for 26 centuries, the best minds, so many of the best minds of Western civilization have talked about this subject and, and taken it very seriously.

• 2:45:26Speaker 01

  26 centuries.

• 2:45:27Speaker 05

  So all the way back to the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers and writers.

• 2:45:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just a fascinating thinker.

• 2:45:33Speaker 02

  Oh, he was awesome. I, you know, and again, one of the lucky things I know is amongst all you guys, you included, like, I talk to people, I care and I love them. And like, thankfully, none of you guys have ever, no one has ever put me in a position to put me in a situation where it's like, you're gonna go to jail. We talk about the hypotheticals. Doctor Thigpen, in the time that I knew him, would just be like, yo, how are you? How's your family? How, how's Matt? How's Dave? Is there anything I can do for you? I can't do much, but what can I do? I'm here for you. And him and I would, into Enoch and theology, like, what we would talk about is for hours

• 2:46:13Speaker 02

  every week, we would just laugh and just talk crap and just joke with each other and just go over all these arguments and just be like, okay, well, also keep in mind this happened with this culture and.

• 2:46:26Speaker 01

  What did he think these beings were?

• 2:46:28Speaker 02

  I think the same thing I do, which is a combination of everything. I, I think spiritual, uh, I hate to call him extraterrestrial, I've never seen evidence for it, but a combination of everything, which is probably what it is.

• 2:46:43Speaker 01

  Hmm. How did he connect that with, you know, angels, demons, other beings from ancient texts?

• 2:46:50Speaker 02

  I mean, for him and I, I think, you know, I don't wanna get into that personally. There's, there's an event that happened in my life to make me Catholic. Uh, I think the same thing happened with him. It happens with people. And, uh,

• 2:47:06Speaker 02

  when that, when, when you have something like that happen, it's like, I don't wanna call it ontological shock. We were talking about you being allowed to go in and see a craft with your own two eyes that wasn't made by humans. Now you know.

• 2:47:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:16Speaker 02

  I mean, I think you know already, but if you saw with your own two eyes, you know.

• 2:47:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:47:20Speaker 02

  So now, in your life, you're going to say, I know for a fact this is true.

• 2:47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:25Speaker 02

  I think that's where he was at with it, just like I am and others.

• 2:47:28Speaker 01

  Do you think the NASA, do you think the UFO that you saw wasn't ours, but was being housed by?

• 2:47:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:47:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:47:35Speaker 02

  I, I think, I think it was there and I have, we're gonna get into really sticky situations, going back to the Langley Air Force Base and imagery that I'm aware of and things, but, uh, I think that was a, uh, I hate to call it this, almost like a tasking, where I just luckily was at the right place at the right time and saw them come around to do a, uh, scan.

• 2:47:57Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:47:57Speaker 02

  So to speak.

• 2:47:58Speaker 01

  Matt Brown also said that these UFOs seem to be made for purpose. Do you agree with that statement?

• 2:48:08Speaker 02

  Yes and no. I mean, the problem is, is the type of technologies we're talking about, when you can do 80,000 at sea level and then travel 300 miles in a second, you know, why do you need to adjust tasking when you can throw something out? Um, and Matt and I, like every whistleblower, we're all very respectful to not cross lines. Matt knows more than I do on things. Um, no doubt about it. And I don't wanna know. Um, maybe he knows something I don't. And theoretically, it's possible. I just, when you're talking about what we're talking about with beaming thoughts into people's heads, appearing anywhere you want, active camouflage, traveling 30,000 feet in

• 2:48:52Speaker 02

  two seconds. Um,

• 2:48:57Speaker 02

  why, why change dimensions? Why change shapes? Why do all that?

• 2:49:01Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:49:01Speaker 02

  You know, it's, it's like, it's like having a, uh,

• 2:49:06Speaker 02

  oh God, what's, the A-10. It's like having an A-10 and an F-22. And then you have an aircraft that can do both with these. You know what I mean? Like, capabilities, but maybe, I don't know.

• 2:49:18Speaker 01

  Hmm. Um, why do you think people at the top of the food chain, when it comes to kind of legacy aerospace rocketry, people like Elon Musk deny the UFO truth? And do you think they know anything more than what they let on publicly?

• 2:49:37Speaker 02

  100% they know publicly. I think that Elon Musk, Elon Musk has a strange thing where he cites the arrow statement, which is extraterrestrial evidence doesn't exist. Cool, Elon? What about not human?

• 2:49:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:54Speaker 02

  Hypothetically.

• 2:49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he's kind of in the same camp, almost.

• 2:49:58Speaker 02

  I don't wanna call it a camp. All I'm saying is, is he's saying the same line.

• 2:50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, James Lekatsky seems to talk along these lines, too, of like, he talks about faith and what it means to be human.

• 2:50:07Speaker 02

  He does.

• 2:50:08Speaker 01

  With UFOs and.

• 2:50:11Speaker 01

  So it's interesting. It's like people who walk into that room, they feel some sort of mental connection with the object. Often it feels ominous and dark is what I understand.

• 2:50:21Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, I so very early on, when I came forward, they were very interested. If I had a connection to the triangle, I said, no.

• 2:50:32Speaker 02

  However, in a

• 2:50:33Speaker 01

  A mental connection?

• 2:50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, like there was a connection to the craft.

• 2:50:37Speaker 01

  And you said no?

• 2:50:37Speaker 02

  No, I never had it with it. But I had something else happen that made me a Catholic as a kid.

• 2:50:43Speaker 01

  Can you say what that was?

• 2:50:44Speaker 02

  I prefer not to right now.

• 2:50:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:47Speaker 02

  People behind the scenes know.

• 2:50:48Speaker 01

  Do you feel like it would muddy the waters if he did?

• 2:50:50Speaker 02

  I think it would be unfair and I don't want to muddy the waters. I'm very much on a truth actory of I want the truth to be told. I want this to be done. I share my faith and my theology perspectives with people respectfully, saying, look, I'm not telling you this is the answer. This is an answer.

• 2:51:07Speaker 01

  Have you experienced other general synchronicities in your life?

• 2:51:10Speaker 02

  100% yes.

• 2:51:11Speaker 01

  Can you talk about any of those?

• 2:51:14Speaker 02

  You know, we talked about it. The last thing I did with BAE that really messed shit up, excuse my language, and we can't really get into that. But that kind of stuff, I mean, well, actually, we can, like, just weird.

• 2:51:28Speaker 02

  Weird stuff, man, like even the whole Nas thing, like that happens. Conveniently, while it's happening in reality, while I'm asleep, but you know, I think back to like

• 2:51:40Speaker 01

  Do you want to tell that story or no?

• 2:51:42Speaker 02

  I mean, you can, you know, I put the tweet up with, uh, uh, Roll the World with Nas. And you have responded with the sample and one you were responding to that I was asleep.

• 2:51:53Speaker 01

  I didn't respond with the sample because that's a Tears for Fears sample.

• 2:51:55Speaker 02

  Mine was, yes. Yours was.

• 2:51:57Speaker 01

  I was like, yeah, because see, there's a song on Stillmatic called Stillmatic.

• 2:52:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:03Speaker 01

  It's the first song.

• 2:52:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:04Speaker 01

  And it's exactly, it's a Stacy Lattisaw sample. And it's like, what is it? Let me be your angel.

• 2:52:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:52:11Speaker 01

  And I love, I actually love the original song, which I found through Nas, of course, because I'm a huge hip hop head.

• 2:52:17Speaker 02

  Same.

• 2:52:18Speaker 01

  And so I've commented that on your, on your Twitter and

• 2:52:22Speaker 02

  While you, while you were commenting that, so I wake up at like 2:00, 3:00 AM on the East Coast. So I'm up and I go to bed at seven o'clock at night. I'm up at two or three in the morning doing dishes, chickens, the whole nine. So I take a nap in the afternoons every day for like an hour. And while I'm asleep, I have a dream about you coming to my house to get provolone and prosciutto. It was prosciutto. It was provolone and prosciutto. I only had mozzarella. And you and I are sitting in a living room and we were BSing about music. And I wake up and the very first thing I see is your response. Now, again, just weird stuff, but that happened. You know, there's other weird stuff that has happened to that is very direct. Like,

• 2:53:07Speaker 02

  I don't want to call it prophetic dreaming, but it is.

• 2:53:11Speaker 01

  But you sense when people are about to pass.

• 2:53:15Speaker 02

  That is true, yes.

• 2:53:17Speaker 01

  That's wild.

• 2:53:18Speaker 02

  But they have to be family or very, very, very deep friends.

• 2:53:22Speaker 01

  And that's so crazy.

• 2:53:24Speaker 02

  I believe that's the quantum mechanics. I think that

• 2:53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're entangled with them.

• 2:53:28Speaker 02

  I do. My soul, your soul is friends or if significant other, family, I think that the imprint of us changes each other. And this is, I've been hunting down genetics. So I think the quantum entanglement, the human soul and genetics are all entwined. And I think that you are a reflection and not just who you are genetically, but society, like, uh, don't blame me what the streets made me stuff, but also who you are genetically is you. I think that your loved ones and your friends and significant others, their soul and their being impacts you. And once that happens, when they disappear, because I felt it.

• 2:54:13Speaker 02

  That part of you that impacted, if you're in touch, you can sense it when they go to the other side. And I've seen it. Yeah.

• 2:54:23Speaker 01

  And I don't, I don't even think that's that woo woo. You know, there's a neuroscientist named Dr. Tara Swart, who does a lot of work on this. And her husband actually passed under unfortunate circumstances. And then I think a bunch of doves showed up at her house. And this is like a thing. Sometimes people, especially who are terminally ill, will come up with like, you know, give me the sign that you're going to come.

• 2:54:44Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:54:44Speaker 01

  And

• 2:54:45Speaker 02

  I, I, off record, I'll tell you some of the other stuff, but it's a thing.

• 2:54:49Speaker 01

  That's so wild. So interesting. And when you told me your synchronicity around the dream you had about me, I told you one, which is that, uh, you know, um, it's really trippy. So my girlfriend's a big Red Hot Chili Peppers fan. I'm a, I'm a fan, but I'm a little more, you know, casual of a fan of theirs. And randomly, I had a dream about Flea, the bassist, the famous bassist texting me. And in my mind, he was texting me. He's like, hey, we should catch up. I don't know what, how I had his number, but like, it was like, he was interested in UFOs, you know, it was like, oh, occasionally celebrities will reach out because they're interested in UFOs. I was like, okay, maybe he's, you know, just one of

• 2:55:30Speaker 01

  these sort of, you know, people or whatever. And so I wake up and my girlfriend's, you know, in the room and I'm like, you wouldn't believe it, but Flea texted me in my dream and she freaks out. And she's like, no way. What'd you just say? Because Flea texted me in a dream. Yeah, you're a Red Hot Chili Peppers fan. She was like, I was just thinking about him on my walk because I wonder, I was wondering if he was a UFO, into UFOs.

• 2:55:56Speaker 02

  It's consciousness, man. I mean, they're, they're, again, what concerns me is with this field and with remote viewing and knowing the CIA.

• 2:56:07Speaker 02

  They have a tendency to take the truth, extrapolate it to insane circumstances publicly to diminish the truth. And they just go full into town. But it's a thing, dude. This is very real.

• 2:56:19Speaker 01

  Well, the, the issue with talking about mind control stuff is you, you, it's impossible to end the implications of that because if you can replace false memories with real ones, and then the person can never know what was, what's real and what's false, which is true. A neuroscientist named Dr. Wilder Penfield, who was involved in early mind control stuff, you know, shows that this is true in mice. I'm sure it's true in humans as well.

• 2:56:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:56:47Speaker 01

  You have all sorts of Mandela effects where people sort of remembered, you know, different pasts, you know, the famous one being, you know, some people in South Africa remembered Mandela dying in jail in the 90s. There's no end to that conversation because then you end up with, especially where there isn't physical evidence involved, literal air pockets of consensus reality in the past.

• 2:57:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, now Jesse, let's get even crazier.

• 2:57:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:57:11Speaker 02

  If you accept that time doesn't exist outside of our reality of it, which speed and gravity prove that time can be manipulated, how do we know all of us aren't just operating in a mind control right now? And I hate to do it, but again, I'm, I'm looking at things through what are factual? What can we prove? What do I know? What is intent?

• 2:57:31Speaker 01

  Well, there's no way to prove that that's not true. And then you go into ancient stories, you know, in Islam, for example, of gin, where they'll literally change variables in reality.

• 2:57:38Speaker 02

  Back, back to my weaponized interview when I said, call them angels, demons, or gin.

• 2:57:43Speaker 01

  And then you, and then you look at interpretation of quantum mechanics and Schrodinger saying, if you measure a particle in the present, it changes its past.

• 2:57:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:57:50Speaker 01

  And this idea that a lot of people who study parapsychology, by the way, elite universities, Princeton, Stanford, you know, Duke, they'll come out of these, you know, research programs and they'll say, it seems like there's a constricted present. So if you have, you know, one or a zero, it's usually a one or a zero in the present. You know, we, we've collapsed the present into some sort of a real reality. And then you have probable futures. And then this is where it always trips people up, but probable past.

• 2:58:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:58:19Speaker 01

  And it's almost like the mind is like a, like a stylus on an LP player.

• 2:58:25Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:58:25Speaker 01

  And it's choosing a track, but all of the tracks exist, coexist all at once.

• 2:58:31Speaker 02

  They do. And then, and again, like one of the big things within Catholicism and this, everything in nature is reflected in the spiritual. So like a big thing is a concitio, the spiral. And you get into this whole thing. And then you think about the universe. All of us are circling around a sun. And you have it happening scientifically, but where are you at in it? And unless you can scientifically get outside of it to view it, you have no idea where you're at while it's happening.

• 2:59:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's like our, uh, it's like there's like client and server side and our, our minds are like client side. So I'm talking about computer science now. And it's almost like you're running a computation at all times. And so it's like, why does, you're mentioning the spirals, why does the golden ratio in the Fibonacci sequence show up over and over again? It's as if we're in some sort of simulation. If you're building a computer program, you would reuse the same code chunks over and over again. That would be the most efficient way to build it.

• 2:59:30Speaker 02

  And I think, you know, again, we, again, to really not get deep, and I'm sure a lot of people are going to attack me for this, but again, to touch on theology, but again, like we discussed, almost every religion known to humans, uh, more or less believes when you boil down and this is a simulation.

• 2:59:47Speaker 01

  Yes. And so this is what's really crazy. If you're guarding the simulation, you are controlling and guarding the exit paths. And I think about two exit paths, consciousness and then extremely high energy physics. So nuclear, high voltage experimentation, particle accelerators.

• 3:00:06Speaker 02

  That's a creative, that's a good one.

• 3:00:07Speaker 01

  So, and then you get into ideas like Rubik's Cube where you're constantly sort of growing this Petri dish that is humanity. And the way to grow humanity would be you give people things in the form of UFOs that break all known priors. So the, the end product is actually the expanded mind of the human looking at the thing. It's, that's not incidental. You know, this isn't some technology for our own instrumental use. This is literally a thing that breaks our brains, expands them and might even exist

• 3:00:46Speaker 01

  at the borders of, you know, stability where like things might start to like get really crazy, ala nuclear. These things sort of show up and it's like, you're not in charge. And we're going to like mess with you and you're now going to become obsessed with this thing.

• 3:01:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:01:01Speaker 01

  You know, Jacques Vallée talks about that. And in fact, at Trinity Test Site in New Mexico, there was a test on July of 1945. And then 20 days later, you see this, this crash. Communication could be, you think you're really smart now, you know, look at this. So it's like, the UFOs are like these instruments for social coordination and cult creation and belief systems. And that's not unique to society. That also happens with the government. And of course, you would, you would, you would disproportionately use the government in that way because they're in charge of a lot of things.

• 3:01:38Speaker 02

  Back to control systems. So if you have a control system on reality and you want to have it, again, almost like a pyramid. You want, humans will stack things and leaders and who is more powerful. So if you have a control system operating our entire reality, well, you would have a control system to control all of us under it. Back to hypothetically agreements. And then now this is where this gets real fun, back to time travel and time dilation and all of this, which is back to the hypothetical, which is, well, if time doesn't exist, are we as humans in the future manipulating ourselves to break ourselves, to put us into that position? And that goes back to your interview with Ramsey and Gurb and

• 3:02:21Speaker 02

  it's all on the table, dude. I don't have the, I, I love these conversations because this is where I'm trying, I am trying to figure out this stuff.

• 3:02:29Speaker 01

  Well, I think the reason it hasn't been disclosed is because the number one rule of intelligence is if you don't understand something, you don't disclose it. But so like these conversations are essential, not only to, uh, you know, life, in my opinion, I think it's really important to just think about these things. But like, they're essential, honestly, to, you know, even the powers that be, like they're so on, they don't understand any of this stuff. So they need to let it out and they need to let, you know, open source information sort of flow around these things. And we need to be able to hypothesize and speculate.

• 3:03:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think these are the most important conversations. I think if, my whole thing has been, I will, I believe people when they've experienced stuff. My issue is, is all I care about is truth, accountability, restitution, and right back to Vanguard.

• 3:03:18Speaker 02

  That's what I'm after. And I will be there for everybody and I will be a shoulder to be there because I know this stuff will isolate you and make you feel lonely. And I don't want anybody to go through what I went through or my friends or my family or the other whistleblowers, but uh, yeah.

• 3:03:33Speaker 01

  What do you think the people who worked at Langley, who are trolling Google Maps and tagging pyramids, labyrinths, all these things, what do you think they're thinking?

• 3:03:43Speaker 02

  I think, I think some of them are like maybe flirting with it, just like, oh, like a little signal here and there, like, oh, check out this, like,

• 3:03:53Speaker 02

  again, all of us, all of us have like trolled, so I don't know what they're doing. It's real, but uh, I think that they, it's just them like joking around with each other. It could be nothing, but I know it's there.

• 3:04:04Speaker 01

  So if you go on Google Maps and you go to NASA Langley, there are people who seem to be employed by intelligence agencies and other government organizations that are tagging Google Maps in that region with labyrinths and pyramids and all sorts of crazies, rocks.

• 3:04:26Speaker 02

  So I screenshotted these years ago. So one of them is this one. So here's NASA Langley Hypersonic Facilities Complex. And this is probably three years old and you can see the labyrinth clearly.

• 3:04:38Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 3:04:38Speaker 02

  It's, it's a frigging maze.

• 3:04:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:04:41Speaker 02

  Now I screenshot this years ago. Now, if we go back over to Google Maps and we go to NASA Langley right now and you can see it, you have that photo of the, uh, building and right next to it in, in Google Maps is that, like you can see it. It's clearly there. That is a screenshot. If you go there right now and pull up the photo, they erased that photo of that labyrinth. And the only photo attached to the facility is the facility itself.

• 3:05:08Speaker 01

  Can I see, can I see the maze real quick?

• 3:05:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:05:10Speaker 01

  Cause that thing looked weird. Whoa.

• 3:05:14Speaker 02

  So, so again, I'm not saying anything about, I'm just saying that's a real thing. And somebody erased those pictures and I have pictures saved of these rocks. I have pictures saved of like pyramids and crap all over the NASA.

• 3:05:25Speaker 01

  Can I see the pyramids and the rocks?

• 3:05:27Speaker 02

  I'd have to find it. Uh, there's the rocks and that's one of the dudes who works there. I want to be careful with that.

• 3:05:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:05:34Speaker 02

  But I want to track these people down on LinkedIn and on Facebook and everything else. And they just wild shit, like again, she works there.

• 3:05:43Speaker 01

  Whoa, and what is she posting? Look, look at that.

• 3:05:45Speaker 02

  I know.

• 3:05:46Speaker 01

  That's like a weird spiral.

• 3:05:49Speaker 02

  But again, all of this has been scrubbed now. I, I was pulling it up while we took our break. All of this has been scrubbed now.

• 3:05:56Speaker 01

  So weird.

• 3:05:57Speaker 02

  All of it, like here's, here is everything. There's a labyrinth, um.

• 3:06:03Speaker 01

  It's like codes for the outside world. What is that? It's like a black, that Black Knight UFO from the 50s.

• 3:06:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And again, like they tagged, they tagged all of this and it's like, here we go. Here's one, uh, there's, there's, uh, one of the Egyptian pyramid things right there. That's tagged in under that agency at NASA Langley. They were just tagging shit and posting these wild pictures all over the NASA facility and they worked there years ago, and now all of these images were scrubbed. Again, I don't know what it means. I just know it happened.

• 3:06:36Speaker 01

  That is nuts, man. Did you ever meet anybody while working there where you were like, you're on some, something trippy? Like you kind of, you know, more about reality than me.

• 3:06:46Speaker 02

  My, my old tech sergeant who I worked with, who was a load master, he clearly knew something. He was very adamant. He's like, Dylan, I care about you. Don't talk about this. You will destroy your life.

• 3:06:55Speaker 01

  Really?

• 3:06:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then when I was at BAE,

• 3:07:00Speaker 02

  one of the older guys who, uh, worked for archives, had a TSSI and made his way to the intelligence community as a government employee.

• 3:07:10Speaker 02

  He was, he knew way too much and he was the same way, like dude, you gotta watch yourself. They don't want you around.

• 3:07:19Speaker 01

  Like, I, I don't understand. It's like, why are there such harsh kind of allergic reaction, reactions to?

• 3:07:28Speaker 02

  So the older guy, the way he, the way he made it sound was

• 3:07:34Speaker 02

  there are truths that the intelligence community doesn't even want to acknowledge. And that is one of them, that this subject is one of them. It's like the dirtiest of the dirty little secrets and they don't want it out.

• 3:07:50Speaker 01

  It's a bummer, man. Well, you've turned this really negative horrible thing that's happened to you and your family into a positive with Vanguard. So you have this project with Matthew Brown.

• 3:08:03Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:08:03Speaker 01

  And it's to protect other whistleblowers.

• 3:08:05Speaker 02

  As I hope.

• 3:08:06Speaker 01

  Tell me about the project and, and tell people who are watching this, because hopefully a lot of people watch this, how they can support.

• 3:08:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, you know, um, we have the website up, the donation page is out there. We're still trying to keep this a little DL, you know, we really. So to be fair too, and be clear, uh, Matt and I discussed this years ago. There are multiple people who are supporting this, other whistleblowers. I don't want to name them. I want to be respectful and if they want to talk, and then there's civilians. Uh, we have an incredible group of people who are just like, this needs to come out. We believe in this. We want to help. Um, I know Jeff has recently fully come on board. I think that's okay to say.

• 3:08:50Speaker 01

  Jeff?

• 3:08:51Speaker 02

  Not a selling.

• 3:08:51Speaker 01

  Okay, nice.

• 3:08:52Speaker 02

  So, you know, we talked to other whistleblowers, like I said, um, I would love to name them, but I want to be respectful. I didn't have permission. I'm, I'm acknowledging Jeff because Jeff said, I'm all in. The idea is to help whistleblowers and their families medically, financially, spiritually, emotionally. Uh, this is traumatic, you know, you guys, we've, we've all talked about it. Journalists and experiencers, I don't think you make it through this uh, without coming out the other side and having a little bit of trauma and a little bit of like, what is happening around me? You know what I mean? So, uh, the idea is we want to work within the medical community. We want to make sure people who become whistleblowers and have been whistleblowers don't lose their houses, which has happened.

• 3:09:37Speaker 02

  They don't have to move, which has happened.

• 3:09:41Speaker 02

  This isn't some get rich quick scheme, you know, we're not Michael Shermer, uh, getting paid $30,000 a speech.

• 3:09:49Speaker 02

  We are literally trying to make sure whistleblowers' kids get food.

• 3:09:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, something else I know in the long run, you know, hopefully disclosure happens, hopefully acknowledges is true, hopefully we get legislation, hopefully get restitution in all facets. This isn't just about money like this. When people talk about ontological shock, and this is something that Matt and I and others have been trying to explain to the scientific community, especially the medical community is this is gonna happen. And you have a group of people with Dave and all his witnesses and me and Matt and Herrera and Barbara, list them. You have a group of people who not only are experiencers, but they also are whistleblowers. If you want to understand what this does to the human psyche

• 3:10:38Speaker 02

  and how to help humans, we're the perfect control group. Are we not? Like, yo, you guys not only witnessed it and were in this, you guys also stuck your neck out and said, I'll die on the sword. Let's go. So the hope is, is that we can get this done and hopefully it leads to disclosure and hopefully in the interim, we exist. But we really want to help out humanity and the experiencer community on the back end because we're trying to help people dealing with it now while this is taboo. So that's the idea, man, is just to help people and hopefully get them jobs and make sure they can have a safe place. And, you know, I'm focusing on the past whistleblowers now. The future are like, hey, guys, if you

• 3:11:22Speaker 02

  come forward, we'll make sure you're protected. Here's what you need to be aware of. They're gonna dox you. They're gonna harass your family. They're gonna pull photos. So scrub your internet history. Pay for this cleaning service. Um, let us know if you feel safe, who you want to talk to as a backup plan, dead man's switch. Basically laying the infrastructure for anyone to come forward and get them in touch, especially while Dave is working with Burleson's office. Get them in touch with people to say, we went through this and we went through this when nobody was around. I mean, this is a madhouse. It's still the Wild West now. At least giving the future people an opportunity to not go through the BS we went through. So that's the idea.

• 3:12:05Speaker 01

  I love that mission, man. And I hope that, you know, in your quest to help others, you don't forget about yourself.

• 3:12:13Speaker 02

  I appreciate it.

• 3:12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz you, you went out on a limb and you landed in a, you know, a rough spot. And I, you know, I'm sorry on behalf of the country. I think it's really whack, given all you went through and, you know, all the service.

• 3:12:26Speaker 02

  They're gonna check me up, Jesse. So I appreciate it. I love you, man.

• 3:12:28Speaker 01

  I love you too, man. And I mean that. And especially after everything you went through, to get gaslit on the service itself, and then to bump into the UFO stuff and then come out and then have all and then to testify before Congress, which should be this sacred body in taking your information and acting on it.

• 3:12:47Speaker 02

  That, you know, what's funny is I will let Jeremy tell that story when the time is right, is even that is a crazy story in and of itself.

• 3:12:54Speaker 01

  I understand. Okay.

• 3:12:56Speaker 02

  Crazy story.

• 3:12:57Speaker 01

  Well, I look forward to Jeremy telling me. And, um, man, this is gnarly, but I really do hope that you do take care of yourself because you, you did land in a rough spot. You weren't treated well by, by the country. And I know you'll be vindicated. So, and I think in your lifetime, so.

• 3:13:12Speaker 02

  I, I, I hope so. I hope all of us are, you know, I, I want to say a couple of quick things is, you know, I love everybody. It means the world. Choking up thinking about it. Um, working, contact, um, friends of mine in the IC, you know, that will come up and be like, hey, you're here or whatever. I'm not, you know, I think of Dave and Matt and the rest of these guys. Like, I did what I had to do. They created me. That's the irony is everybody else was like gung ho, like, I'm doing this because it's the right thing to do. And I did the same thing. But for me, it was, I have to do this. You created this problem for me.

• 3:13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. But it's just, it's, it's not cool that, um, you know, you're living in, you know, a very, a place where it's, you know, relatively affordable and inexpensive to live. But every time I call you, it's like, you know, I'm, I'm getting Chick-fil-A and we're leaving some leftovers out and you're, you're kind of, you, you have, you're, you're living very frugally and your wife and you, you have a master's degree are both extremely qualified. And you're in this like, kind of, you know, uh, what's the best way to put it? You're in the, you're in purgatory.

• 3:14:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're in purgatory.

• 3:14:29Speaker 02

  That's what it is. Yeah. Yeah.

• 3:14:30Speaker 01

  So that, that sucks.

• 3:14:31Speaker 02

  There's a lot of us in it. You know, I think only a handful of us who are in this situation publicly known made our way into positions where we are, uh, employed. Um, the Matt, the vast majority of the whistleblowers in the past, uh, you either go into this subject and you go full tilt or you're SOL. And, uh, this goes back to me being here and I love it. And I'm so thankful to be here and your audience and everything. Uh, you know, I only want to speak when it's necessary and have something to add. And I love the fact that you gave me a platform to add this. I think all of this is important. I wanted to get out here for Vanguard and trying to make this work. Um, you know, it's crazy. It's crazy times.

• 3:15:18Speaker 01

  Crazy times for sure. And on a, on a light note, I know you're a hip hop head. We were just talking about that. What, um, who are your top five?

• 3:15:25Speaker 02

  Oh, that's easy. Uh, M. Nas Jadakiss, M. Nas Jadakiss, Andre 3000.

• 3:15:31Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 3:15:31Speaker 02

  Um, okay. Who do I want to throw for five? Oh, now we're getting fun. Um, oh, maybe B. Run? I don't know. I might go old school. I might go like way old school, but I don't know.

• 3:15:49Speaker 01

  It's a deep cut.

• 3:15:51Speaker 02

  Definitely the top four are locked in.

• 3:15:53Speaker 01

  But you'd go B. Run over Biggie and Tupac and, well, this is just yours.

• 3:15:57Speaker 02

  No, you know what? There you go. I completely Tupac's number five. There you go.

• 3:16:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:16:02Speaker 02

  And Nas Jada, Andre, Tupac. There you go.

• 3:16:06Speaker 01

  It's a great top five. I love it.

• 3:16:07Speaker 02

  It's a good top five.

• 3:16:08Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 3:16:09Speaker 02

  What's yours?

• 3:16:10Speaker 01

  What's my top five?

• 3:16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:16:11Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Let's see. I would say Jay-Z is amazing. Um, I know he's been in the news for some not so great reasons. So, you know, as a, as a, as an artist, he's amazing. Um, who else? Uh, as a, as a producer, we were talking about.

• 3:16:31Speaker 02

  Kanye, 100% top. Kanye's one, Dre's two.

• 3:16:33Speaker 01

  As a pure rapper, I wouldn't say him. I mean, I think Rakim's underrated. He hits so hard.

• 3:16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:16:39Speaker 01

  Uh, I think, uh, Biggie's amazing. I like him. Tupac's more raw, passion, but Biggie's lyrics.

• 3:16:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, Biggie, Biggie's got the flow. Like, I like, I like, I go for lyricists.

• 3:16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:16:51Speaker 02

  For me, that's, that's where I run.

• 3:16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, who else? Uh?

• 3:17:00Speaker 02

  Man, you embarrassed me with that Biggie Tupac. Completely out of my mind because I, I'm so focused in that world. I've been listening to Jewels and we were talking about it.

• 3:17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Diplomat. I mean, I think, I think Nas has got to be up there too. I mean, just because of, just because of Illmatic. I mean,

• 3:17:15Speaker 02

  Insomatic, back to back, dude.

• 3:17:16Speaker 01

  Those two were great. And then after that, it definitely went a little downhill. I actually liked a couple of his recent albums, but, um,

• 3:17:23Speaker 02

  He's, he had a couple of hits in there.

• 3:17:24Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 3:17:24Speaker 02

  You know, you know, actually, you know what? Let me throw, Ice Cube is an honorable mention. Ice Cube, Ice Cube has had some disgusting songs.

• 3:17:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:17:33Speaker 02

  Late in his career.

• 3:17:34Speaker 01

  You know how we do it. And

• 3:17:35Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:17:35Speaker 01

  Um, It Was A Good Day. He was in, um, NWA, obviously. He was amazing. Yeah.

• 3:17:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. I know, I know. I, I, you're, you're making me go back. I'm going through all these songs in my head because I'm, I've been doing classic rock and I've been doing like more like New York rap lately.

• 3:17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:17:53Speaker 02

  So I, I, I'm like all over the place. I've been really killing this, uh, Capital Cities Pink Floyd Tupac song, Breathe. It's a remix. So Capital Cities produced it. It's Pink Floyd Breathe with Tupac Breathe. Disgusting. We'll have to listen to it. This is some like California driving down the highway convertible music. Oh, it's awesome, dude.

• 3:18:11Speaker 01

  Sounds amazing.

• 3:18:12Speaker 02

  Oh, it's, it's good.

• 3:18:13Speaker 01

  I'll get on it.

• 3:18:14Speaker 02

  Hell, yeah.

• 3:18:15Speaker 01

  Dylan, I appreciate you, man. Go check out Vanguard. What's the website?

• 3:18:19Speaker 02

  Uh, it's at Vanguard.org. I know Matt had thrown it up. It's on Twitter.

• 3:18:23Speaker 01

  Vanguard.org.

• 3:18:24Speaker 02

  I, so on some, uh, real stuff, I, uh, we have a social media team. This goes back to support and I want to give a shout out. Everybody give a shout out to everybody who supports us. We love you. I know a lot of you guys don't want to be known and I understand and I hope one day all of you, shit, I'm gonna cry again. I hope all you guys get all the respect in the world. Um,

• 3:18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and, and if you're out there and you have any disposable income and you really care about, you know, the story resonated with you and it's of a variety, it's not isolation, please donate.

• 3:18:57Speaker 02

  Agreed. And then, uh, one more quick one, if I can add to that.

• 3:18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:19:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Hold the government accountable.

• 3:19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:19:02Speaker 02

  Hold them accountable.

• 3:19:03Speaker 01

  Definitely hold them accountable. Yeah. I mean, I don't even, there's an endless laundry list at this point to hold them accountable for, you know, things they've done. But, uh, thank you, man.

• 3:19:13Speaker 02

  Jesse, it's been a pleasure. I love you, man.

• 3:19:14Speaker 01

  You too.

• 3:19:15Speaker 02

  We're gonna go chill?

• 3:19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's go chill.

• 3:19:17Speaker 02

  Hell, yeah, man.

• 3:19:18Speaker 01

  Eat some steaks.

• 3:19:18Speaker 02

  Love you.

• 3:19:19Speaker 01

  All right.

• 3:19:53Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's