The Man Who Controls a UFO Fleet With His Mind

Our American Alchemist this week is Jeffrey Mishlove, the ONLY person to hold a PhD in Parapsychology from an accredited US university. Jeffrey Mishlove’s Website: https://newthinkingallowed.org/ Jeffrey Mishlove's Channel: New Thinking Allowed: https://www.youtube.com/@NewThinkingAllowed You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below for Exclusive Alchemy Deals!! -------------------------- Dose: New customers can save 35% on your first month of subscription by going to https://dosedaily.co/JESSE or entering JESSE at checkout. Code: JESSE RIDGE: Get 10% Off your entire order & take advantage of Ridge’s Annual Sweepstakes by going to https://www. Ridge.com/COSMIC #Ridgepod Superpower: Go to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY for $20 off your membership this year. Get full body testing that goes 5x deeper than an annual physical and a personalized action plan that tells you exactly what to do next. All for just $199. Code: ALCHEMY Jeffrey Mishlove spent eleven years studying Ted Owens, a self-proclaimed psychokinetic who documented over 400 incidents of macro-PK, from summoning UFOs and lightning to predicting the Challenger disaster. Mishlove received Owens' research files directly from Hal Putoff and Russell Targ at Stanford Research Institute. He later won Robert Bigelow's $500,000 essay contest proving consciousness survives death and now hosts "New Thinking Allowed," one of the most extensive interview archives in consciousness research. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] -------------------------- RIDGE DISCLAIMER: NO PURCHASE NECESSARY. Open only to legal residents of the promotion territory, who have reached the age of majority in their jurisdiction of residence. Void elsewhere & where prohibited by law. Enter by 9:00 a.m. USPT on 8 September 2026. 2 winners, prizes total ARV: up to approx. $539,165 CAD / £284,170. Skill-testing question required in CA. See Official Rules at ridge.com/pages/rules for complete eligibility, entry instructions, how to enter without a purchase, entry limits, prize details, odds, and restrictions. Sponsor: The Ridge Wallet LLC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  Do you think Ted Owens was an alien?

• 0:32Speaker 02

  This is a guy who could point his finger and lightning would strike where he pointed. And he said to me, this is going to be one of the biggest UFO sightings ever. He said, it will be seen by hundreds of people. And that happened about four days later.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  That is crazy.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Ingo Swan claimed to have used remote viewing to travel to the moon where he believed there were aliens who forced him off.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Thinking aloud. Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  I'm here with one of my heroes, who has hosted for the last few decades one of the most incredible shows.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  I recently interviewed people who suggest that the intention is to build a civilization where humans and aliens will be living together.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  The ancient gods, the Anunnaki, perform genetic experiments on our primate ancestors.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  It seems like a lot of religions, at least at their sort of more esoteric core, were centered around the liberation of the soul from the body.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  I would only qualify that by suggesting that while we use language that says the soul separates from the body, it might be almost the opposite. It might be like going deeper into the body.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Have you ever had spooky things happen to you?

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Christmas Eve, 1985, I got a phone call from Ted Owens. And in his big booming voice, he said, "You have to notify the US government not to send up the next space shuttle. Because if they do, my UFOs are going to knock it right out of the sky." A few weeks later, the Challenger explosion occurred.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  We have a report from the flight dynamics officer that the vehicle has exploded.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  That is wild.

• 2:48Speaker 04

  Ignition frequency five.

• 2:52Speaker 04

  How is this possible?

• 2:54Speaker 05

  Nothing too unusual about that.

• 2:58Speaker 05

  Existence cannot longer be denied.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  I'm here with one of my heroes, Jeffrey Mishlove, who has hosted for the last few decades one of the most incredible shows. It's called New Thinking Aloud, and it explores the frontiers of human consciousness, UFOs, parapsychology, survival of the soul after bodily death, all sorts of incredibly important topics at the fringe of human epistemology and knowledge. And you do it with such a childlike curiosity, but also intensity. And it's amazing. And so I'm just so grateful to be here with you.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  I'm happy to be here. Thank you.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I want to talk to you about an interesting essay contest you won. A lot of people in my audience might have heard of Robert Bigelow in the context of UFOs, because he's the Budget Suites billionaire who was supposed to actually get UFO material from Lockheed Martin in 2008. And with Bigelow Aerospace, his company is involved in some UFO material study, it seems. And then he ends up with a fascination and deep interest in near-death experiences and survival of the soul after death. And he sets up this essay contest. And you win the essay contest?

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Robert had gone through some changes in his life. I think, if I recall correctly, his aerospace company had been shut down by the governor of Nevada during the COVID crisis. They, in effect, decided it was a non-essential business. And he had a large staff, and he had to let them go. At the same time, around then, his wife died. And he decided to switch his emphasis. He knew that, at least in his mind, and I would agree with him, the two big unsolved problems facing humanity have to do with the nature of UFOs

• 5:12Speaker 02

  and the nature of survival after death. And he didn't feel like he could study them both at the same time. But he felt that it was time to switch from UFO, UAP activity to look at the question of survival. And to begin with, he thought he would issue this essay competition.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  And I want to get into your submission, which is fascinating, and it's public for everyone to see. But before that, I find it very interesting that certain people, like Robert Bigelow, transition from this kind of hyper-capitalist, nuts and bolts, I want to figure out how the UFO technology works. You know, maybe he's looking at the technology, or maybe, again, this transfer from Lockheed Martin gets blocked by Glenn Gaffney, the director of CIA's Science and Technology Division. Unclear kind of what happens there and how much progress he makes. But then he gets into the soul and mysticism and parapsychology. You've also had on Nick Cook, who wrote a whole book about nuts and bolts, anti-gravity.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  And he went through a similar transition, where now he's writing about parapsychology. So I find that fascinating.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Well, I think it goes all the way back to at least the 1960s, to the Betty and Barney Hill case, if not earlier, probably much earlier. There's always been this intangible, consciousness-related aspect to the UFO mysteries. Everyone who has experienced... In fact, who was the fellow? Arnold, who first reported UFOs in...

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Kenneth Arnold.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Kenneth Arnold in 1947. I believe his daughter has now written a book talking about the mysterious paranormal experiences he had following his first sighting. So it's pretty much always been there and sort of kept under the carpet because people weren't ready. Society wasn't ready to deal with these two mysteries at once. Even when I was a graduate student at Berkeley in the 1970s, and I began doing research with this fellow Ted Owens, who claimed to be in telepathic contact with aliens.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  One of my professors in parapsychology dropped off the committee because he said, "We just can't combine these two fields." It's hard enough to have one parapsychologist without having the social repercussions of trying to do two at the same time.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Well, you need to do two at the same time. As the great biologist E.O. Wilson discussed, concilience and matching up disparate domains is how you make progress. Inter-domain kind of discipline, I think, is really important. So if something is phenomenologically true but can't be encapsulated in some sort of repeatable scientific process, it doesn't make it not true or not subject to scientific scrutiny.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  That's how I've always felt.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  I know. I'm preaching to the choir.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  The truth is that we live in a world where there are many narrow academic disciplines, and they don't often speak to each other. Interdisciplinary scholarship is still relatively rare.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  You said you were friends with a man named Ted Owens who claimed to be in contact with extraterrestrial beings. He's known as the PK man. Do you want to give just the audience a little bit of context as to who he was?

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Well, in 1969, he published his book called How to Contact Space People. I learned about it not long after that because I had friends who were into UFOs, and they thought, "This is unusual. This guy is telling us how to actually achieve a telepathic communication with what he called space intelligences." And he demonstrated that he could do this by a whole series of amazing things. Like, this is a guy who could point his finger and lightning would strike where he pointed.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  And many other things. Power blackouts and controlling the weather and UFO sightings. This was all documented in his original book, along with affidavits.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  He was studied by Russell Targ and Hal Putoff at Stanford Research Institute, who started the CIA Psychic Spy Program. Isn't that right?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Well, almost correct. He reached out to them. They had become relatively well-known because of their work with Uri Geller, the Israeli psychic who was world famous. And they had published in some scientific journals about their work with Geller. So Owens reached out to them and said, "Why are you wasting time with him? I'm the world's greatest psychic." But they wanted nothing to do with him, actually, because they were getting funding from the CIA. And they were already, in their minds, too public with Uri Geller.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  They didn't want another flamboyant psychic to be associated with them. So in February 1976, they had invited me to SRI to experience remote viewing, which I did. And had a very successful trial at the time. But they were all abuzz about Ted Owens because they'd been ignoring him, ignoring him, ignoring him. And finally, he had, shortly before my visit, sent them a message saying, "I'm going to prove to you guys that I'm real." California was experiencing a bad drought at the time.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  And he said, I'm going to show you what I can do. I'm going to end this drought. And it's going to happen within a couple of days. The newspapers where you are will publish an article saying the drought is over. At the time, the articles were saying no end in sight to the drought. And furthermore, you'll know that I did it because there will be every kind of strange weather, snow and hail and sleet and UFO sightings, which is one of my trademarks. And all of that happened within a few days. And so they said, somebody's got to look into this, but we can't. So they said, would you please take our files?

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Get them out of our office and follow up, which I did. I worked with Owens for 11 years from 1976 to 1987, when he died.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Fascinating. Did you witness firsthand any of this stuff? The ability to summon lightning on command, control hurricanes, control the weather?

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Well, these things happened while I was studying him, but I didn't witness them in the sense that I wasn't present as they occurred. They were reported in newspapers, many, many things.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  And he would sort of call his shot and then the thing would happen. Is that correct?

• 12:48Speaker 02

  He would send out letters to me and to other scientists. He had a handful who were at least keeping files on him. And of course, I had all the files from Pudoff and Targ. And along the way, other researchers sent their files to me. So I've collected an archive and I've kept it for decades.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  What are some of the most striking, specific examples of predictions that he made?

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Well, I'll tell you the single most striking one. I had been ignoring him for a while because frankly, he was a difficult person. He wanted desperately for scientists and the government to pay attention to him. And he was being ignored. And as a result of that, he said, I'm declaring war against the United States government. And I would get newspaper clippings of poltergeist attacks on Navy vessels. Strange things like that. And then there was one-

• 13:51Speaker 01

  And he would say that he was attributing that to himself.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  He would say, I'm haunting this Navy vessel.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Or using psychokinesis.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Is what he claimed, or it varied. At different times, he said, no, I'm not using psychokinesis. I send telepathic messages to my friends, the space intelligences, mantid-like beings in an invisible giant UFO hovering over the earth. And they do it.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  And the mantid beings, they were in touch with light beings that were above them, right? It was like the mantids were somehow intermediaries?

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Well, he would say that they are really energy beings, but when they take a form, it's sort of like a large insect.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Interesting. Well, this is so fascinating because it makes me think that some of the quote unquote UFO disclosure stuff going on right now is sort of a misdirection towards this like nuts and bolts machinery thing. Because if there's a person who can create a poltergeist hysteria on a Navy ship, you have to think that that's being systematically done vis a vis, you know, American adversaries all the time. And then they're probably doing it to us as well. And then some of this stuff we think of as sort of nuts and bolts is really sort of some consciousness projection or something?

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Well, maybe the truth of the matter is that mind and body or physical matter and mental things are really all one. And that we have been lulled into not appreciating the vast potential of our own consciousness. And Owens was one of the people who broke out of that early in his life for various reasons.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  How does he say he broke out of that?

• 15:44Speaker 02

  There are different stories. He would claim that the space intelligences were watching him since childhood. He would claim that they discovered he had the most powerful nervous system of anybody they had ever encountered since Moses. And he claimed that the aliens he worked with, he called the space intelligences. He also had names for them. He called them Tweeter and Twitter. He said there were two of them and he gave them those names because he said when they communicated, it was like a high pitched squeaky sound. And he said, they arranged for him to have all of these different professions

• 16:29Speaker 02

  in order that he would have a mind that was flexible enough to interact with them telepathically.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Fascinating. It was like he was being primed for communication. Yuri Geller has a similar story of being abducted, I think, as a young child. And then he gained his psychic powers that way, but-

• 16:48Speaker 02

  He would also claim that on one occasion, he was driving along a highway in Texas, as I recall. And one day he found himself on the road next to his car or truck, as it was, surrounded by a whole circle of tarantula spiders. And when he got back into the car, he realized that they had operated on his brain and accelerated whatever native abilities he already had.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Wild.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  It's very wild and I don't know how to evaluate it. But to get to your original question, the most unusual thing, I was just explaining I had been ignoring him. He had predicted a major earthquake, for example, as part of his attack on the US government. And nothing happened. And at that point, I, you know, I just did other things. I didn't pay attention to him until Christmas Eve, 1985. I got a phone call from Ted Owens. And in his big booming voice, he said,

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Jeffrey, this is the most important phone call you will ever receive.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  I guess he wanted my attention. And, and he said, it's up to you now. You have to notify the US government not to send up the next space shuttle. Because if they do, my UFOs are going to knock it right out of the sky.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Really?

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Yes, that's what he said. And I ignored him because first of all, he, for the last few years, he'd been either, you know, silly little poltergeist activity fires, for example, aboard naval vessels and attacks on nuclear power plants. Those were also documented, but the earthquake prediction was totally off base. And besides which, you know, I was, I was a nobody. At the time, I did have my doctoral degree in parapsychology, but I was, I had been libeled. I was fighting a libel suit. The US government wasn't going to listen to me.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  And I didn't even know who to talk to. So I ignored him. But then, a few weeks later, the Challenger explosion occurred. And I was, as you can imagine, just shaken completely.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  It happened just over one minute into flight.

• 19:45Speaker 03

  One minute, 15 seconds, velocity 2,900 feet per second, altitude nine nautical miles, downrange distance seven nautical miles.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  That is wild. Do you think, do you have any evidence outside of his statement? I mean, that's, that's, it seems like an eerily accurate prediction. Do we have any evidence that there was some sort of interference with the Challenger from an outside object?

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Not to my knowledge.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, not to mine either. But, but, but, but this is a very interesting data point. I don't know if you know this, there's a NASA mission controller, uh, whose name is Tim Taylor, and he claimed to be part of a secret space program. Uh, but he also, and get like all sorts of interesting downloads. And he also was the NASA mission controller for that Challenger mission where Judith Resnick ended up passing and it, he took it really hard. It was really hard on him. And I just, I wonder, I wonder if, you know, there was some sort of transmission that was ignored elsewhere or something. I mean, who knows?

• 20:45Speaker 02

  I have heard of, of others.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  You've heard of others?

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Yes. Um, I, I don't have all the details, but I was contacted after, uh, I gave a talk for a, a small foundation and was active in the San Francisco Bay area at the time called the Foundation for Mind Being Research. And I talked about this event and afterwards I heard from them saying they knew of a, another channel or somewhere who had made the same prediction.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  And then there was the time where I believe Ted Owens was so pissed off at being rejected by the Stargate crew, by Hal Putoff and Russell Targ, that he said, I'm gonna do some 100-day UFO apparition marathon. And this was also to prove to you how effective he was, right? And then there's literally a newspaper clipping from Sonoma of UFOs appearing in the sky?

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Well, I set up the experiment.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  At that point, in February 1976, I got the files from Putoff and Targ. That summer, July or August, I actually met Owens at a conference in London. And, and what happened there was there was a drought in London and Puthoff and Targ, although they wanted nothing to do with Owens, had arranged for a little news article to be published in Psychic Magazine, no longer exists, but it was active back then, talking about what had happened in Palo Alto and in California, ending a drought. So people in London were experiencing terrible

• 22:31Speaker 02

  drought. Uh, it was so bad that they were bringing water by truck to some of the outlying communities. And again, the newspapers were saying no end in sight to the drought. So they reached out to Owens to end that drought and ended up inviting him to a conference sponsored by the Para Science Foundation, the University of London, in the summer of 76. So I met him there and befriended him and, uh, he agreed to work with me. And I, at that point, asked him, could he set up a UFO demonstration for me? And he immediately

• 23:15Speaker 02

  responded. He said, yes, I'm gonna create three UFO sightings within a 90-day period within 100 miles of San Francisco.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  And he did just that?

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Not quite.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Sort of.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Sort, sort of.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Well, cause it, that, his prediction was every day and this was just a single day?

• 23:32Speaker 02

  No, not every day.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  It wasn't every day?

• 23:33Speaker 02

  No, no, three.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Three over 90 days.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Within 100 miles.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  And I was, I was a graduate student, so I figured I've got to try and make this as scientific as possible. And I reached out to colleagues in San Diego, which is a city of comparable population and said, uh, we each sent out letters to all the law enforcement agencies within 100 miles to see if we could, uh, collect information about any UFO reports. So there was, uh, first there was one, a person in Concord, California, walking in the middle of the downtown streets at 4:00 AM, had no interest in UFOs, but

• 24:20Speaker 02

  claimed that he had been abducted right off of the street in downtown Concord. And, and we interviewed him. It seemed legitimate enough. He wasn't looking for publicity. He filed a police report, et cetera. And so I was on the phone, once again, with Owens, talking about, you know, what was going on. We were in regular communication. And he said to me, Jeffrey, I can feel it coming. He said, this is gonna be one of the biggest UFO sightings ever. He said, it will be seen by hundreds of people. It will be photographed and the

• 25:00Speaker 02

  photograph will be published on the front page of one of your local newspapers. And that happened about four days later. And, and that was over, uh, Sonoma State College, as it was then known, in Ronert Park, California, about 50 miles north of San Francisco. The art department was holding a special artistic event with a pilot named Steven Polesky, who had a little airplane with smoke trailing out the back, making designs in the sky. So that was his art form. And so the whole art department, about 100 people, were out there

• 25:40Speaker 02

  with their cameras and videotape in December 1976. And a UFO appeared right over the campus, uh, about 3,000 feet above the campus, the, and it was seen by the pilot and from the ground. It was photographed. The photograph was published on the front page of the Berkeley Gazette, right in the San Francisco Bay area. And it was videotape. The videotape was broadcast on the Channel 9 Evening News.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  That's wild. It's pretty crazy. And there are people on record who witnessed him seeming to summon lightning as well, right?

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Correct. Yes.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Who are those people?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  There was an attorney in Philadelphia. This is back in the 1960s. And it was described in Owens' book. There was an affidavit from the attorney, Sidney Margulies, uh, saying that, um, he was taking a, a break from work. I guess they go into the stairwell of this high-rise building where Owens was working as a typist for the law office. And Owens was bragging. He said, I can make lightning strike. And the attorney, uh, said, oh, I don't believe that. Owens said, you, you tell me where you would like to see lightning. And at the time, it was a cloudy day. There was light rain, but there was no lightning.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  And the attorney said, well, over there, the Camden Bridge, leading from Philadelphia in, toward New Jersey. And, uh, Owens pointed his finger at the bridge. And according to the affidavit.

• 27:28Speaker 01

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• 28:54Speaker 01

  subscription. I want to thank Dose so much for sponsoring the show. Now, back to today's episode.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Owens pointed his finger at the bridge and according to the affidavit, lightning struck within a few moments, not hitting the bridge, but in that general vicinity. And I interviewed Sidney Margulies back in the seventies when I started my work with Owens. I interviewed him again 20 years later when I published the book, The PK Man. And he remembered the incident vividly both times. He said it was one of the most vivid memories that he's ever had in his life. And he vouched for everything in the affidavit.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  And it's so fascinating that the the histrionic personality is impossible to decouple with the powers, you know, I think you see that a lot. You see that with people like Yuri Geller, too.

• 29:53Speaker 06

  So the CIA took me to Stanford Research Institute. Drawings were done miles away and I had to receive those drawings telepathically. One drawing was done while I was in Palo Alto and a CIA agent in Langley, Virginia. And I knew exactly what he was holding in his hand.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  You're like, really? This guy like he was like endowed with all of these gifts. And then I think if you look a little more deeply, you speak to people at, you know, the pair lab at Princeton and other places that studied him. I think there, there often is a kernel of some magical thing that's going on beyond, I guess, in Yuri's case, he was a stage magician as well. And there are probably things he faked. So it's always very confusing, you know, but it's, but it's fascinating nonetheless. And it feels like Ted Owens's legacy is being vindicated by all this modern UFO disclosure stuff that really is centered around the, the human being and an individual's ability to attract these paranormal experiences.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  If you look at the testimony of Jake Barber, or even look at the people under Bigelow, you know, studying, you know, stuff at Skinwalker Ranch, these things seem to sort of follow them home.

• 31:07Speaker 07

  You talk about the hitchhiker effect, and I've shared that most of my experience has been positive, but I haven't shared that stuff has followed me home and that my family sees it. We have stuff show up over our house.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  And it's more about the people. It's almost like disclosure is like disclosing ourselves to ourselves, you know, like that's more somehow significant than this sort of materialist, reductionist nuts and bolts. You know, there's a craft and it's in a hanger somewhere narrative.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Well, they could both be true. I think the idea of the kind of wild personality that is gifted in this way goes back to the prophet Elijah in, in the Bible, who did something similar, calling down lightning. He had a battle of the, against the priests of Baal to see whether our God or their God would light this sacrificial fire.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so, it's so interesting. Some people just seem to be endowed with some of these things. And then it feels like sort of weakly entangled with reality or hard to repeat in this perfect way. And, and, and what do you attribute that to? Like, it feels like whatever was going on in the Old Testament times, those prophets seem to be able to will these things and harness them in a more sort of one to one clear way.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's this idea I learned when I was young and taking religious education that these things no longer happen. They belong in biblical times, but God has decided that we don't need them anymore. I think that's just putting on the blinders. These things are still going on and Owens desperately wanted to work with scientists. I have in the files over a hundred demonstrations of this type that he performed, but they're not mechanical 100%. They don't work that way. They're, I suppose you could say like quantum physics. They have a statistical underpinning.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, if you were in establishment power structure, you might be threatened by people like that, you know, because they can attract all sorts of attention. And I'm sure, you know, cults form around people like that. Have you heard of the prophet Yahweh?

• 33:28Speaker 02

  The prophet Yahweh was a fellow who lived in Las Vegas back in the day when I lived there, as a matter of fact. And he also claimed he could summon UFOs and a local TV crew took him up on his challenge. They went to a, a local park in, in Las Vegas and he said, you know, keep your eyes in the sky, it's going to happen. And all of a sudden, something strange appeared in the sky and they videotaped it and, and reported it on the evening news. This guy says the Old Testament written in Hebrew taught him how to summon UFOs.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  I pray on Yahweh that you send a sighting so that they know that I am not mentally ill. I think something's straight up. Oh, brother, look at it. There it is. Let's take a closer look here. It's an orange sphere that appeared out of nowhere.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is a wild video because you see the reporter going in all smug, like, I'm going to dismiss this guy. And then he comes out and he's like, ah, looks like something showed up. And you see the kind of ontological shock and integration process in real time with this reporter.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Well, they've subsequently, I think people have looked at it and said, he had a, a colleague, an associate who released a balloon, which is, you know, there's no evidence that that actually happened, but it's an alternative hypothesis.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are always alternative hypotheses. And then those alternative hypotheses are often morphing constantly and weaker than just the thing happened. And, you know, it's funny, I think of like Occam's razor, which comes from William of Occam in the 13th century. You know, that originally, and its original connotation meant, you know, the least amount of entities was responsible for a thing happening. And so at the time it would have been God in many cases. It was sort of a way to justify miracles. And now Occam's razor is just because we're living in this age of disenchantment, this sort of materialist, reductionist soup that we're all swimming in.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  It now is like this heuristic that rationalists use to explain anything magical away. And I find that to be such an interesting transition that show, it shows that the same heuristic is used in diametrically opposed way because undergirding that heuristic is just this pre-leveraging of society to like, believe in magic and not believe in magic. And so there's this sort of like fundamental mythology that, you know, underpins what we believe at any given moment. And if you're an enlightenment rationalist skeptic in the modern day, you can say you're immune to that, but you're clearly not. You're pre-leveraged by the rationalist thing.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  Well, I suspect that there, there's a deeper evolutionary struggle going on between, you could say predator and prey, that, you know, the prey are always finding different ways to elude the predator and the predator is always finding different ways to overcome those mechanisms. So obviously people know that psychic abilities could be an incredible weapon in the hands of a predator. So one of the defense mechanisms against that would be to establish a cultural norm that says all of this is impossible.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  So Ingo Swan, for example, a great psychic, one of the godfathers of remote viewing has suggested that humans are capable of vastly greater psychic functioning than, than we normally exercise, but it's sort of been conditioned out of us.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  I think it has. And you read the kind of 19th century gentleman, journey or anthropologists, you know, the, the ones before it became this sort of solidified field, people like, you know, JG Frazier, for example, you read the Golden Bough. And it's like all these tribes that were formerly uncontacted had forms of homeopathic and sympathetic magic, where it was, you know, either the, the use of like sort of the likeness of a, of a person. So it'd be like a voodoo doll or it'd be like hair, teeth and nails in the form of sympathetic magic. And in these sort of closed circles, belief would become reality and it was incredibly powerful.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  And then I think if you end up in this more kind of atomized disparate society, you know, that gets, that gets lost. And especially if the pervading mythology is just, you know, scientific skepticism.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  I have heard, I don't have any firsthand information, but that the so-called Legacy Program, working with what they called psionic assets to lure UFOs, has been reaching out to people from native cultures around the world, especially young children who have never been taught that this is impossible.

• 38:36Speaker 08

  It is basically these people who are psionic assets who have been screened from third world countries that they use them.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've heard that as well. And I've heard there are people sometimes mysteriously missing from those native cultures. I know somebody who studies this in census data. It's sort of a dark area that, you know, freaks me out, to be totally honest. But they definitely are systematically looking for, you know, often children who have non-verbal autistic, you know, predispositions, but just abilities to perform telepathy, telekinesis, basically like kind of Eleven in Stranger Things, you know, but like, that's real. And I find actually very similar kind of phenomena with Eleven in Stranger Things and Ted Owens,

• 39:25Speaker 01

  bringing it back. She requires getting angry for her powers. So when she is sort of backed into a corner, it's, it requires a lot of her, but she gets all, you know, kind of goes into like super sane mode. She gets like really kind of amped up and then something paranormal happens around her. And that seems to be true of Ted Owens as well, from, from your book, The PK Man.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Another example would be Ted Serios, the famous thetographer who was a Chicago bellhop, studied by Jule Eisenbod, the psychiatrist who produced these images on Polaroid film. I think very authentic from my point of view, although the skeptics have attacked it viciously and unfairly, but he would get drunk, basically, in order to perform this act of psychokinesis. And Owens liked to do something very similar. He would occasionally sit in his living room, smoking cigars and drinking whiskey, and he'd have two or three TV sets going with football games. And he would try and influence the outcome of the

• 40:34Speaker 02

  football games from a state of intoxication.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  That's so wild. Yeah, if only people knew just how real I think this all is. And it's, you know, you have JB Rhine, who actually worked with Ted Owens for a long time. He was the founder of the first real official kind of parapsychology institute, the Rhine Institute at an elite university at Duke, 1931, I believe. And so, yeah, everybody that studies these things at Duke, at Stanford Research Institute, at PARE, the Princeton, you know, engineering and anomalous research lab under Bob John, who was the dean of their engineering school. There are all these very serious people. You yourself are the first person to kind of officially study it at Berkeley, parapsychology.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  I think I'm the only person in the world ever to have achieved an accredited doctoral diploma that says parapsychology right on the diploma. That, that's my unique distinction. But there are hundreds of people who have done doctoral research on parapsychological topics. It's just that their degrees didn't say parapsychology.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  And the larger point is that people like yourself, who seem lucid, rational, very smart, all, you know, spend decades of their lives looking at this stuff. Often, you know, you can't really argue with the experimental protocol. It's like a random event generator tied to something like radioactive isotope decay, or, you know, some quantum tunneling effect, or a double slit experiment with, you know, 50% slit A, 50% slit B. And you get really statistically significant effects when an observer is present who wants the output to skew towards, you know, slit A or slit B. And you can't really explain that away. You can always say things like, oh, it's pee hacking and file drawer and, you

• 42:30Speaker 01

  know, survivorship bias, whatever. But all of these serious people go in often skeptical to, into the study of this stuff. And they come out and they say, I think there's something statistically significant here.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  There's no question that there is something statistically significant. The, the real question is what? Is it, for example, mind over matter? Or is it precognition? That is still a hot debate within the parapsychology community.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  We're always going to attempt to, you know, engage in these physicalist frameworks of these things. Like, oh, if we just figure out that orchestrated objective reduction works and Penrose was right, then it's, you know, the mind is a quantum mechanical system, and then we're rendering reality, and then we can affect the ones and zeros. I have a feeling it's not just like one more step like that and we've got it solved. I think it's probably way more complicated. It involves probably a paradigm that turns time on its head. And so, you know, do we have math that lines up with that currently? Like, maybe quantum mechanics points to that. But Schrodinger's equation would be an effective equation that's couched within that, just like Newton is couched within Einstein. So I think we'd

• 43:46Speaker 01

  need a fundamental paradigm shift. And we are in the Stone Age on all this stuff when it comes to these sorts of conversations.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  And there may be certain logical limits, like the great logician who worked with Einstein, who showed the limits of logic. No system is ever capable of explaining itself.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Oh, Kurt Gödel.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  Gödel, yes, of course, Gödel. Gödel's logical.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Incompleteness theorem.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Incompleteness theorem, I think applies here. And since we're talking about consciousness, is consciousness itself capable of explaining itself?

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the eye seeing the eye. It's a fundamental problem. But the point is, is that I think while academia is caught up in what's the next theory of everything? How can we explain this, turn it into math and make it perfectly repeatable? I think aerospace and the government has been systematically exploiting it for the last 50 years. And so from Stargate and onwards, maybe arguably even earlier, you know, they've been systematically using remote viewing methods. You know, you knew Andre Puharich?

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  And, you know, he was sort of the father of MKUltra and, you know, they were summoning this council of nine extraterrestrial beings. But he was a serious kind of neuroscientist at Northwestern before that. And so now you end up with today, you have this UFO Legacy Program, which is really just trying to gather up the most parapsychologically powerful people in the US? Like, that's roughly what they're trying to do from your understanding?

• 45:19Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  I, I don't have any privileged access to what the Legacy Program is.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Well, have you heard of these, like, like, it seems like the gifted and talented education system is like acting like, or has acted like a funnel for this sort of thing in the past, where they find talented students, they drink this pink drink, they'll wear these headphones, hear these tones, and try to sometimes affect certain materials with their mind, that sort of thing?

• 45:46Speaker 02

  I, I have heard that, but I have to admit, until I get more evidence, I keep an open mind. And because there's a history of people fabricating stories. So I'm, I would like more solid evidence as to what the Legacy Program actually has done.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  I want to close the loop on human personality and its survival of bodily death, which is actually the title of a great book by Friedrich Myers, who's one of the original parapsychologists. And I think he wrote that in the 1870s. And, and so you wrote this amazing essay as a submission to Robert Bigelow. And, and, and what is the exact thesis?

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Well, Bigelow asked for an essay on the strongest evidence that human consciousness will survive permanent bodily death. And my essay basically said, it's not a single line of evidence. The strongest evidence is that from nine different directions, we have evidence for this. Everything from mediumship to people who work with what's called EVP or ITC. ITC is instrumental transcommunication. EVP is electronic voice phenomena. In other words, people claim that they're communicating with their deceased friends and relatives

• 47:16Speaker 02

  using radios and computers and television sets.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  That's fascinating. I know about mediums. I didn't know people are using electronics to communicate with.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  There are probably tens of thousands of hobbyists working in that area. And, and it's very common amongst ghost hunter shows all over TV these days. They have different devices called the spirit box, which goes through randomly selected radio channels. And people sometimes say they're getting messages that way. I've heard of some striking examples that, that occur. And even instances where images will appear on a TV set and will be photographed and the TV set wasn't plugged in.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  I was just with a friend who tragically lost his sister. And he was saying that he saw a medium and the medium immediately started kind of ragging on him the way that his sister did. So the medium was like, what are you wearing? That's so ridiculous, or something. And immediately he just knew. And then from there, it was like, all of these unique details about things that only she would know, like, like, tens, if not 100 plus of these details. And if you were to, you know, use the scientific method against that, the P-values of figuring those sorts of things out, that, you know, what are the odds? Somebody could do that through cold reading, or, you know, you can't access this information online.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  It's not documented. And in his case, you know, he gave me some of the examples, but I want to anonymize this somewhat. And so you hear countless stories about this sort of thing, but it's all just disregarded.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Well, even in the parapsychology community, it's very controversial. The alternative hypothesis is that, well, the medium was psychic. It was ESP. It doesn't mean that the deceased person is actually alive in a spirit world.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  But originally, parapsychology really did look into this, this question. And it's actually the exception to the rule to find a culture that believes that, you know, the human soul or personality doesn't survive the body, as you point out so eloquently in your essay. And the final thing I would say is even if you look at physics itself, E equals mc squared. So you have energy and matter conversion. So where does the matter go? It just, you know, just goes into the ground and that. But then there's, there's a lot more going on than right now in an alive human than just matter. So where's the energy go? You know, like, there seems like, you know, if we have conservation of energy, it seems

• 50:01Speaker 01

  like there's an energy loss going on in death, or there's not. And there's stuff going on around us and we just can't see it.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  There's also conservation of information. And to take things a step further, Einstein's theory of relativity would tell us, and it's been confirmed experimentally, that if you're a photon traveling at the speed of light, you can go from one end of the universe to the other end and takes no time at all. So space and time disappear.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Speaking of space and time disappearing, you have an incredibly fascinating interview, you have so many, but with Michael Talbot, who wrote The Holographic Universe, tragically died at a very young age.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  But he was really trying to reconcile kind of hardcore physics with this idea that the universe was sort of this holographic emanation of your mind.

• 50:54Speaker 09

  Prieburn was studying memory and found that there's evidence that the brain operates holographically. And Bohm was studying subatomic physics and found that on the subatomic level, the fabric of reality seems to possess properties that are reminiscent of a hologram. So if you put those two ideas together, that our brain seems to be holographic and the universe is holographic, it suggests that maybe, it's compelling evidence that that the universe may be a kind of hologram, not that it's literally a hologram, but that it's a good metaphor, a way of understanding the universe.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  He, he was brilliant and he was a good friend. I visited him at the hospital before his death. And the irony of Michael Talbot's death is, is that he had written a novel about, a vampire novel, in which he claimed that vampirism was a rare form of leukemia. And then he contracted a rare form of leukemia that killed him.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Whoa. That is crazy. Jesus. Oh, man, that is so weird. And that's like a horrible synchronicity, but it feels, it feels, do you think that was like coded somehow? You know, some of these guys that get to the brink of human epistemology sometimes feel like they're in danger or weird things happen to them. There's, I don't know if you're familiar with Jacobo Grinberg?

• 52:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  So this guy is studying this idea that the humans exist in this sort of lattice matrix of consciousness. And he sort of says he figured it out and, you know, he goes missing. And I think the last note he writes is about how he figured it out or whatever. And, and then he's never sort of found again.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  He was never found again. We have a, a program about that on the New Thinking Aloud channel with Alex Gomez Marin, who studied that case. Grinberg was a friend of Puharich, incidentally. Another example of this sort of thing would be Elizabeth Targ, the daughter of Russell Targ, who was a psychiatrist and doing brilliant medical research on psychic healers. She was looking at geoblastoma, which are brain tumors, very deadly brain tumors. And she was working with healers to heal the, the geoblastoma tumor when she contracted

• 53:14Speaker 02

  one herself and died in her early 40s.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Jesus, that's horrible. Do you suspect there's now been this sort of missing scientist narrative?

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  And I, I think I am in a kind of a middle ground spot on the topic where, can I say with confidence, there's been a statistical speedup of scientific suppression? No. But can I say that in isolation, a lot of these cases, people are talking about, Nuno Larrero, who basically ran MIT's plasma fusion lab, and, you know, Carl Grillmeyer at Caltech, you know, Neil McCaslin, who ran this, you know, who's on the Special Access Program Oversight Committee and ran the Air Force Research Laboratory at Wright Patterson and was cleared to more things than the president. In isolation, I can say that all of those cases are extremely significant. And then I would say that there's been a history of scientific suppression.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  So I don't, I don't know if this represents a statistical speedup, but do you think that any of those cases, Talbot, Targ, do you think there was any sort of foul play, Grinberg?

• 54:18Speaker 02

  I, I don't know.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's maladaptive to think about those sorts of things. You gotta kind of ignore it, keep the blinders on. Have you ever had spooky things happen to you, given that you're kind of swimming in this stuff? I mean, you must have to go into these things with a real, pure heart. Because if you don't, I feel like if you go into these sorts of topics with any sort of malintent, you know, it can go sort of badly.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  I, I think you're right. And maybe I've just gotten lucky.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  I doubt it's luck.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  I think I've been protected from things, but I can give you one example that was a little scary, not much really. I think for the most part, whatever I've experienced has been positive. But there was an occasion after Owens had produced this amazing UFO sighting, published on the front page of a local newspaper, as he had predicted. I was on the phone with him again. And you may remember, he said he would produce three sightings and he was bragging about how good he was. And I said, well, you've only produced two so far. And he slammed the phone down. He got angry.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  And within minutes, I could feel this sensation in my throat, like when you get a kind of scratchy feeling in your throat and it's just enough to let you know you're about to get a real sore throat. And that's how it felt, like I'm about to get really sick from this. And then 45 minutes later, he called me back and he said, Jeffrey, I will never do that to you again. And it lifted.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Oh, that's freaky. So he had the ability to just remote influence people on command?

• 56:17Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, there were lives lost there and because he could be vindictive.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Whoa. So you think he took people out?

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Well, there were people who, in his mind, double crossed him, had promised him certain things and didn't deliver on their promises. And he was not always a nice person. He tried, for example, to get owners of various major league athletic teams to give him money in order to protect the team. And if they backed out on their promise, at least in one of those cases, there was a suicide.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  And in other cases, there was an example where a sports writer, I think of the Virginian Pilot Newspaper, invited Owens to attend a football game with him. I may have the newspaper incorrect, I think, but because it was the Philadelphia Eagles they were watching. So it's probably a different newspaper. And in the middle of the game, Owens said, I'm going to take out this player. Told the reporter, the reporter later wrote about it. And within moments, that player, who was sitting on the bench at the time,

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Was a fullback, got up and ran into the field unexpectedly and was kicked out of the game.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  No way.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  So taken out in the sense that he was disqualified from the game because he broke the rules and just came off the bench.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  It was a totally irrational act on his part.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Whoa. But in other cases, you're saying Ted Owens literally might have killed people.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  There were airplane crashes. There were, um, there were a number of unpleasant incidents.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  You must be protected. You dealt with this guy for a decade plus. That's insane.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  I had the attitude. You see, I started out working in criminology.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  When I was a young man, I was a graduate student in criminology. I was doing field work at San Quentin Prison, doing group therapy with murderers and rapists. And I cultivated an attitude early in life to treat everybody with respect, no matter what, even a murderer, even a rapist. And I treated Owens that way, too. So he had no reason to ever, uh, treat me badly. And, uh, I think that attitude has, has served me well in life and I, I still believe it.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  You were almost primed to be able to be, to deal with them. You were like the only one who could deal with them or something.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Well, there were others. There were a few others. Uh, I remember back in 19, must've been 77, 78. Uh, I convened a meeting of scientists to, cause I really wanted, while I was still a graduate student, to launch a serious research program into this man. And we actually corralled J L and Heineck to show up. And his attitude was, I wouldn't go near Ted Owens with a 10 foot pole.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  I'm with Heineck on that one. Uh, that's wild. That's wild that you were able to get that close over such a long period of time. And, you know, you had a 45 second scratchy throat. That, that, that's why, that's all you got.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  It's fascinating because it's interesting also to hear the accounts of people at the, you know, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab and SRI, where at times it almost feels like people studying parapsychology. For them, it's almost like a religious conversion experience and their ability to affect the statistical distribution, you know, the Z score on the random event generator is very correlated with their kind of heart centeredness or like kind of internal alignment. So I think about that with respect to Ted Owens. And I'm like, this guy seems like this angry vindictive, like sort of, you know, very limbic guy.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  But then he has these like higher powers. And then I think about the people who go through this parapsychological conversion process and they become these, you know, just like, almost like modern saints or something. And those two things feel very different.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  They are different. And, um, Puharich wrote about that in a book called Beyond Telepathy, in, in which he developed a theory that for receptive forms of ESP, it's good to be relaxed. And as you say, heart centered, uh, he would call it cholinergic in, in his book. Meaning, uh, the acetylcholine, uh, hormones are active in the body. So you get relaxed. Then he said, however, for psychokinesis, for an active form of telepathy or PK, as, as we call it,

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  uh, that requires an adrenergic state, a lot of adrenaline. You get aroused. If you're sending a, a message, for example, a very common experience reported in the 19th century was called the crisis apparition, where somebody is in an accident or, or near death. And other people have an apparition. They appear and learn about it that way. Well, the one person in the crisis is in an adrenergic state. And the other person receiving the information would be in the cholinergic state.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  So somehow like this self disillusion or heart centeredness, uh, makes you more receptive to messages. But to send the messages, which it really seems like Ted Owens specialized in, that requires maybe more aggression or anger or more adrenaline.

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  It would seem to be the case. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule, but it, it seems that there's a tendency in those directions.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Tell me about Puharich because, uh, I find him to be such a fascinating figure. You know, I have a friend named Greg Malatzi, who just made

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  an amazing documentary on, on him, uh, called, uh, The Mind Traveler.

• 1:02:40Speaker 10

  I'm Andrea Puharich. I'm a physician by training, uh, research scientist by choice. And I've spent the last 25 years investigating people with unusual powers.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Puharich was this guy who, he was earnestly kind of interested in consciousness. He was at Northwestern. And he starts studying this stuff and he kind of gets folded in, in a way that I, I don't think he was quite ever fully comfortable with throughout his life, uh, to kind of intelligence circles and CIA. And, um, and then he, he has in Austin, New York, uh, you know, he has the space kids and he recruits all these people. He brings in Yuri Geller from Israel and they're, they're talking to this council of nine extraterrestrial beings. And there's this open question of, is he taking the beings' existence at face value? Is there like a galactic federation that he's receiving transmissions from? So there's this like CIA scientist communicating systematically with aliens?

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Or is it this proto parapsychological thing? And he kind of knows that the whole time. Do you have a take on that? And?

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Or I could talk for a long time.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Please. Yeah, go for it.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Well, let, let me say at the outset, Mind Traveler, the documentary, I know it's been years in, in the making.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  11 years. Yeah.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  I know Greg and I'm currently working with a fellow named Lance Mungia, who worked closely with Greg. And Lance is currently working with me to build up a documentary on Ted Owens.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  So there's a connection there.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  That's exciting.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. 168 different demonstrations he performed over a period of 20 years. Roughly two thirds of them worked out the way he said they would. Puharich, uh, when I first met him was about 1972. And Berkeley, I sponsored a, a conference at Zellerbach Auditorium, 1,800 people showed up. Uh, and Puharich was one of the speakers. And it was at that conference that he made the very first public announcement about his work with Yuri Geller. And, uh, Puharich, uh, has always been, uh, wonderful to me.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  He, he was an inspiration. I saw him as a role model and he encouraged me, uh, along the way. So I owe a debt of gratitude to him. I think he was a fine researcher, uh, a very brilliant man. I only learned later on about all of his associations with MKUltra. But he had already published, uh, some of his work with, with psychedelic mushrooms.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh yeah. Sacred mushroom.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  The sacred mushroom. So he was known for that. And I knew him to be a magical person because I had heard, uh, before I even met Puharich, people who read his book, uh, The Sacred Mushroom. And within, uh, days of reading his book, they find these mushrooms growing in their backyard.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  That's wild.

• 1:05:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  And I think he would attract all sorts of UFO flyovers at Austin. And, uh, he had a machine that he would hook up these sort of space kids to as well. So it was this sort of similar to your sort of, you know, um, mediumship, you know, electronics. It was these electronics to, to, to speak with who he thought maybe was extraterrestrial intelligences. It was this council of nine, but they were also, I guess he brought up, uh, the, the nine Egyptian deities in this context.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  So I guess my, my central question on him is, do you think he believed that he was in communication with extraterrestrials? Or do you think he kind of knew all along that you can't take any of this stuff at face value? And it was just, he was really looking into parapsychology.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  There's so many touch points.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  With Puharich and, and UFOs, but I think it's fair to say that he was a very sophisticated man. And I'm sure he understood, A, that UFOs are real, that they were involved, for example, in the Yuri Geller's history and, and development. Puharich himself witnessed UFOs in conjunction with Yuri Geller as well as synchronicities. And.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  You know, today, we talk about the simulation hypothesis, which is a very sophisticated way of looking at it. And in Puharich's day, that hypothesis didn't exist, as far as I know. But I think Puharich implicitly understood that reality is not what it seems to be, and that there's a real connection between the ancient Egyptian deities and people who are channeling information as he was working with different channelers and UFO appearances. I think he understood it was all interconnected and that he himself was,

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  he believed himself to be in direct communication with these entities, whatever they were.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  He was so fascinating, and he was, I think, just a focal point for so much good. And then, incidentally, probably a lot of bad, too, but not necessarily due to his own intention, but due to being sort of folded up into the wrong circles, which can often be the case, I think, in these topics. You know, I think it attracts a lot of left-hand path types who, you know, want to sort of instrumentally use this stuff for, you know, MKUltra, or, you know, their own power, or, you know, instrumental technological use, or whatever.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  I think first and foremost, he was a scientist, and he wanted to understand these things. And he had a broader vision than most anybody else in the scientific world at that time.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  You've spoken to so many interesting, fascinating people. I don't even know where to start, but Terrence McKenna. You have an amazing interview with him online, and it almost feels like when you ask him questions, he's like tethered to some metaphysical pool of otherworldly truth or something. He's so precise in his language and so semantically accurate, but then also extremely trippy.

• 1:09:16Speaker 11

  One possible view of the flying saucer is that it is a kind of projection from the consciousness of the planet, that it is Gaia, that it is, in fact, a kind of alchemical object haunting human historical time with a symbol of totality.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  He was wonderful and one of the most articulate people I'd ever met.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's a great clip of him with John Mack, and he's interviewing John Mack. And he's kind of, kind of goading John Mack, and like, he's kind of being a little like cheeky in his interview questions, and he's kind of leading John Mack in a kind of interesting direction, which almost feels like his personality type, like he's this almost machine elf, but in the real world or something. And he's talking about, to John Mack about like, you know, the Western, you know, materialist reductionist paradigm. And John Mack, you can tell he's getting kind of ideologically heated about how he wants that paradigm to, you know, go away.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  And it's going to get, and it's going to get hit really hard by, you know, this, the paradigm that's existed kind of in cultures across millennia, you know, very hard.

• 1:10:36Speaker 12

  If you want to shatter the Western mental structures, the Western mind, so to speak, which is now permeating the whole earth in its materialist, dualistic philosophy, the way you do it is you take something that's supposed to be in the spirit world. Because even in the West, we can make allowance for the spirit world. We can study it through mythology, through religion, through imagination, through poetry. But the one unforgivable sin to the Western mind is when something that should be in the spirit world transgresses and shows up in the physical world.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  You've interviewed both of those guys.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  I have, yeah.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  It almost felt like McKenna believed that mushrooms would sort of symbiotically, they represented these sort of forms of intelligence.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  And they would symbiotically attach themselves to humans and direct their thoughts and actions in, you know, interesting ways.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Well, he had this theory that consciousness itself developed when our primate ancestors discovered these mushrooms.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  So he had some wonderful theories. Now, I've done some, an interview, and I've gotten to know his brother, Dennis. And Dennis's attitude is a little different. Dennis would tell you that Terrence is not the saintly person that is sometimes viewed as, you know, the psychedelic saint of some kind. He was certainly a pioneer and a forerunner, but the two of them got into a number of misadventures with psychedelics. And Dennis would say that, you know, a lot of Terrence's ideas, like his way of trying to connect the I Ching

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  with a system of 64 different trigrams of the I Ching, or hexagrams of the I Ching with the genetic code and so on, was just speculative and wrong.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, fair enough. I mean, clearly, his life was very sort of free associative or something. And, you know, I know they had multi-week-long mushroom trips in the Amazon where they would sort of download and channel things. The theories, like the stoned ape theory, are so fascinating. And, you know, I don't know how much corroboration there is for that, but it's an interesting question to why human brain size doubled from Homo habilis to Homo sapiens from 2 million years ago to, you know, 300,000 to 400,000 years ago. You know, if human hunter-gatherers are looking for scat and, you know, psilocybin cubensis is growing on that, then maybe that begets these sort of quicker epigenetic changes in neurogenesis that allows for that change to occur.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  Well, the other hypothesis would be that of Zacharias Hitchens, who suggests that the ancient gods, the Anunnaki, performed genetic experiments on our primate ancestors. And that's how the modern Homo sapien developed.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Yes, that's true. Yeah. There are a lot of interesting theories, and I think there's this latent sense. You know, Stephen J. Gold had this discussion of punctuated equilibrium. He's an evolutionary biologist. And there are holes in the evolutionary record. And Karl Popper would often talk about materialist promissory notes, where, you know, materialism was taking out debt and had all sorts of placeholders, that they would smuggle in sort of fake answers for things.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  And I think the advent of culture and agriculture 10,000 years ago, and this doubling of, you know, brain size are examples of that, where you get these sort of spikes in activity, where it's like, you're just, you're saying that we've been physiologically the same for the last at least 200,000 years as human Homo sapiens. And then, in 5% of that time, 10,000 years ago, we get culture, agriculture, history, you know, complex structures that we're building, specialization, urbanization. That seems a little weird.

• 1:14:45Speaker 02

  I think we have to take seriously the ancient astronaut hypothesis that the, this planet has been under observation perhaps long before humans evolved on it, and that there have been genetic experiments taking place by, we don't know exactly who or what, but many of the myths of ancient gods seem to point in that direction. And if you look at the various claims about a hybrid program taking place right now, people, credible people in my mind, such as Whitley Strieber,

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  who talk about, you know, semen extraction taking place during alien abductions. It may be the case that those genetic experiments are ongoing.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  That would be wild. And we were talking about Robert Bigelow. I find it fascinating that the UFO disclosure movement centers so much around Bigelow aerospace. It's all about this OSAP program and Bigelow, which was, you know, they were going to receive this UFO from Lockheed Martin, and he was clearly privy to all sorts of sensitive UFO stuff. He was studying these things at Skinwalker Ranch. But also, elite scientists were doing write-ups in the forms of these, these sort of dirds on like exotic propulsion for him. So he was really the tip of the spear as far as people we know about with resources studying this stuff. And then Bigelow will also, in interviews, say aliens are walking among us, implying that maybe they're human hybrids,

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  or maybe they're Men in Black-style aliens in sort of skin suits or something. I don't know. But what do you make of that?

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  I don't think we can discount it. I've heard numerous reports along those lines. I don't have any hard evidence whatsoever, but in the larger context of what I know and you know about what's been going on over the last, let's say, 70, 80 years, it seems to be a reasonable hypothesis.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Do you think Ted Owens was an alien?

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• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Do you think Ted Owens was an alien?

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Just to push back on that, I don't, I don't know, maybe he probably wasn't an alien. But like, if you have, you know, variants of humans and you have somebody like that with like macro PK skills, I would, you know, like, if I were to like choose the aliens, it would be the people who like Matilda style could do like telekinesis and like summon hurricanes and that sort of thing. Like that would, those would be maybe my first candidates.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  Well, Ingo Swan claimed to have used remote viewing to travel to the moon where he believed there were aliens who forced him off the moon. But his point was they have stronger psychic abilities than even a very talented human such as himself. And I think that's probably true.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  All the reports talk about, you know, really clear telepathic communication with, with these aliens, but it's not as if humans can't do these things.

• 1:20:53Speaker 13

  If you go to Mars telepathically, the first thing you'll encounter is a group of five telepaths who are not exactly welcoming. And if they don't manage to throw you out, then they add four more. So there's nine of them, after which you get a headache and go to bed.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  The aliens would then be on the continuum of human evolution and they would be more advanced than us. And epistemic frameworks coming from things like remote viewing would bump into aliens, just like Pat Price is remote viewing these alien bases across the earth under Skip Atwater, you know, or with, you know, Ingo Swan where he's remote viewing an alien base on the moon. It's like you're bumping into their channel.

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  It's like you first, you're Marconi, you're the first person to develop a radio, and then you get kind of a weird signal and you're like, where's the signal coming from? And that's like, maybe what's going on with the remote viewers or something.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  I think there is a lot to that idea. And then one has to ask, if they've been monitoring us, some people would say we're like a garden or a farm for them, that they're watching. What is their ultimate intention? Where is this? What is this leading to? And I recently interviewed people who claim to have direct information about that and suggest that they, the intention is to build a civilization where humans and aliens will be living together on this planet.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Who are those people?

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  I've done a series of interviews with two individuals who exist in one body. They used the names Annika and Tristan. I've now completed 10 interviews with Annika and Tristan. What they do is beyond anything to my knowledge that is known of in the literature of multiple personalities or what's called dissociative identity disorder. So when one of you is in the body, where's the other one?

• 1:23:02Speaker 14

  They are in a meditative state. So sometimes they can be completely removed from the body. So Tristan just left the body completely. Like he just moved outside of it and he reduced his presence in the body completely. So now it's, now it's just me. But then if I let go of the body, and okay, so now I'm in the body. It's very jarring too, because you're going from a state where you're, you don't have access to the senses and you're very much in this very strange state of consciousness. And then you're coming back into the physical world. So it's, it's jarring for us.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  They're perfectly comfortable with each other. They can switch back and forth instantly. There are neuroscientists interested in studying them. I'm hoping to set up some serious laboratory work, brain scans and the like neuroimaging while that happens because they can sing duets together. And I've been interviewing them over a couple of years now.

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  They claim at this point to have memories of having lived outside of the earth on other planets and other lifetimes and that they're on a mission to help ease the, the way they would call it would be unifying the timelines, but ease this transition that humanity is going through right now of basically first contact with, public contact with aliens who have probably been here for a very long time. My understanding is that their lifespans can be

• 1:24:40Speaker 02

  much longer than ours, for example. So while we say, you know, human history goes back five, maybe 15,000 years to go Blackie Tepe, the lifespan of some aliens could be longer than that. But in any case, they claim that, that there is a plan. And there are some books from contactees that go into greater detail about that.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:25:11Speaker 02

  Which they endorse.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  Annika and Tristan?

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  And these are two personalities in one body and they can switch back and forth at ease?

• 1:25:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  And they're aware of each other while they're, one of the personalities is sort of dominating the conversation or embodying the body.

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  It's aware of the other personality.

• 1:25:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Unlike traditional dissociative identity disorder.

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:25:39Speaker 02

  And there are now eight interviews that have already been released on the New Thinking Aloud channel. Two more to go.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  I can't wait to watch these. That's fascinating. And so they also claim to sort of have knowledge of their past lives in which they were on other planets or something.

• 1:25:57Speaker 02

  Right. They were working on these same problems from the point of view of being an alien.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  What do they attribute that ability to integrate to? You know, like, that seems really rare, the ability to switch back and forth like that and coexist in harmony.

• 1:26:14Speaker 02

  It's rare. I don't know of another case like it. And they would attribute it to being part of their mission, that it's their way of demonstrating that there's more human consciousness than we suspected. It would seem to suggest that, you know, the soul and the body are separate, that they can each enter and leave the body at will.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Well, you're a fan of William James, the, you know, father of modern psychology, but also, a lot of people don't know, he was, you know, the president of the Society for Psychical Research as well. And he's really interested in parapsychology too, one of the early kind of proponents of it. And he had this transmission theory of consciousness, this filtering mechanism of consciousness that you eloquently write about and speak about. And so maybe, you know, if you were changing the channel on a TV or something, this sort of integrated double identity thing going on with Annika and Tristan might make a little more sense.

• 1:27:13Speaker 02

  And if we can begin to nail down what happens in the brain while that is going on, I think that'll be an advancement, whether you consider it two souls in one body, as I do, or an unusual case of dissociative identity disorder. It still says a lot about mind-body interaction.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. You mentioned bending timelines or integrating timelines in order to sort of ease a transition involving contact with non-human intelligence. I'm sure you've had this thought, but you are probably a large node and a big part of easing that transition.

• 1:27:51Speaker 02

  Well, I sometimes suspect there may be more going on than I'm even consciously aware of.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  I bet you that that's the case.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Because you also started the show. Well, I mean, what was the inspiration to the show? Because I think it has a very interesting origin story.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  Well, if we go back to when I was a graduate student in criminology, 1972.

• 1:28:15Speaker 02

  I would say that I was already very interested in the paranormal and in mysticism, but I never thought I'd have a career in that area. I was specializing in what you could call deviant psychology and crime and psychopathology. It's what I was looking at. And I had at that time, two dreams that changed my life completely. The first one was a dream where a great uncle of mine, who I hadn't seen in years, but it's like my favorite great uncle, appeared in the dream.

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  It was, I'd call it a visitation. And I later learned it occurred at the moment of his death. And when that happened, I decided that I needed to change my career focus and try to find a career that focused on positive forms of human deviance rather than negative. That was very hard to do, even though I was at school at the University of California, one of the largest and best in the world. There weren't opportunities very much to study the paranormal or mysticism.

• 1:29:43Speaker 02

  But there were a few professors who were sympathetic and supportive. And I agonized, what am I going to do? And then, months later, after months of agony, really, I knew one day I was going to have a dream. I woke up and said, tonight, the dream is going to happen, I'm going to, no. And I had a dream that night in which I was visiting some friends of mine who lived across town in Berkeley, in a married student housing apartment. I knocked on the door, I knew them very well, there was no answer.

• 1:30:27Speaker 02

  And in the dream, I found a key, let myself in to their apartment. And in the middle of the living room floor, there was a magazine spread open. I picked it up, began paging through it. The name of the magazine in my dream was I, E Y E. And then I woke up with this feeling of exhilaration, like, wow, I've got the answer. But I didn't know what it meant. And so instinctively, I acted out the dream. I put on my tennis shoes, ran across town, got to the apartment, knocked on their door, and there was no answer, as I had dreamt.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  And in fact, I knew where they hid a key. And so I let myself in. And there, in the middle of the living room floor, just as I had dreamt, was a magazine. I picked it up, it was called Focus. And it gave me Focus for the, really, the first time in my life. It was a magazine of listener-sponsored radio and television, KQED, in the San Francisco Bay Area. As I was paging through it, it dawned on me, for the very first time in my life, that I could pursue my interests by getting involved in the nonprofit segment of the media.

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 1:32:00Speaker 02

  So I went to KPFA Radio, Pacifica Radio in Berkeley, which was also a nonprofit, and said, I had my master's degree at the time, I said, can I volunteer? And they said, sure, sit at this desk, and when you hear the doorbell ring, push this button and let people in the front door, which I gladly did. And within three weeks, I had learned how to produce a radio program. I did my first program on, you don't have to be from out of town to be psychic.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:32:39Speaker 02

  And the program director liked it so much, he said, we have a slot for you. Every Tuesday and Thursday at noon, we'd like you to host this interview show called The Mind's Ear. And all of a sudden, I found myself sitting just like this, and of course, there was a table in those days, with leading experts, authors of books, people like Robert Monroe, coming through the Bay Area on their book tour. And that gave me the confidence to then go back to the university and take advantage of a very obscure rule they had, that if you're a graduate student in good standing,

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  and you want to do a dissertation on a topic that no department would be willing to sponsor, and you can find three faculty members of, from different departments who will agree to sponsor you, you can create your own individual interdisciplinary doctoral program. And so that's how I ended up, seven years later, earning a doctoral degree in parapsychology.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  That's amazing. It's almost like a little divine intervention. You had a precognitive dream that also, I know, another former interviewee of yours, Eric Worgo, would describe as a time loop. Because had you not had the dream, you wouldn't have been motivated to, you know, find the magazine that said Focus, and then you wouldn't have gotten the Focus in order to join the radio station and then, you know, get the parapsychology degree. And so if you hadn't have been paying attention to the dream, you wouldn't have taken action.

• 1:34:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  It's so fascinating.

• 1:34:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm still fascinated by it. It seems to me that little event in my life says a great deal. And normally, what I tell people about it, people ask, is, it seems to me that the universe as a whole wants each of us to become the best version of ourselves, which is going to be different for everybody. And that if you set out to do that, to get in touch with, you know, your own deep inner purpose, the universe is going to help you, in one way or another.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's right. I think when you find the thing that you're supposed to be doing, it feels like, almost paranormally, things start to happen. It's almost like the opposite of entropy. You know, I know people use words like centropy or whatever, but it's like a reduction in the randomness and an increase in these synchronicities, where you're being shown that you're on the right path, and it's, you know, the path is sort of being cleared for you.

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  I bet that's happened to you, too.

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it has. Well, meeting you originally, and being such a fan of your stuff, and yeah, it has. Like, every step of the way, in fact, there are times I've tried to quit. And like, early on, especially, I'll give you an example, like, I didn't put out a show for nine months between Graham Hancock and David Grush. And I was really contemplating, like, you know, I was like, I didn't have social media before starting the show. I don't particularly love the discourse on Twitter and, you know, other platforms like that. And I just like to, like, read and meet people, and I'm, you know, I'm sort of ultimately actually kind of an introvert.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  And I don't know, I get also with these sorts of topics, they're fascinating to me, and I feel like I need to get deeper on them. I'm sure you have the same sort of impulse. And then I also simultaneously am sort of afraid of them, and I'm afraid of getting deeper. And I realize that there are a lot of people who get, you know, too deep, or they have sort of the wrong impure motivation, so I'm always trying to audit my motivations. So anyways, all of this is going through my head, and I've basically all but quit. I haven't done a show in a long time, nine months. And then I'm in Europe, and I'm with my friend Amar, who runs this amazing channel called Yes Theory, this really big YouTube channel.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  David Grush had already come out through News Nation and I had known him for probably a year and a half or two years at that point. And I was with my friend Amar and he's like, you know, this guy? And everybody in the world is hanging on his every word. They want to know what he's going to say next because he's, this guy is very above board. He's handled the Presidential Daily Brief. You know, colleagues have come out in support of his. And he seems totally lucid and he's saying that he has like hundreds of pages of documentation of this legacy UFO crash retrieval program going on sub Rosa. He's like, you need to interview this guy. And I was like, ah, man, I've, fuck YouTube. I'm done with all this

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  stuff. And, and eventually he kind of convinces me and I call Dave with my friend Amar and he's like, oh, I'm a, I'm a huge Yes Theory fan. Like, you know, I love what they do. And yeah, like, why don't, why don't we do a thing where it's like, you can do something with Yes Theory and we, we do something, you know, on the Hill for when I, you know, when I testify and then you can follow me back to Colorado. We'll, you know, go ATVing together. We'll have a great time. And I'm just like, I can't say no to that. Sounds amazing. So I do that. We have the best time ever. We create this little mini doc. And then from then on, I'm like, ah, I guess I'm back in it. And I've had a little instances like that where if I get demoralized, I get like redirected back. It's very fascinating.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  You can't, you know, it's a morfata. You gotta love your fate.

• 1:38:23Speaker 02

  Good point.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Have you had instances like that where you feel like you almost have to like test whether something is right for you, where you, you, you peel back on it and then you get sort of forced back into it because clearly you're supposed to be doing that?

• 1:38:39Speaker 02

  There have been times, as I mentioned earlier, I had to fight a libel suit. I have had to deal with skeptics who viciously attacked me for different reasons. There have been times when in order to support myself, I got involved in other professions, which is good. I learned things like, as you learned along the way about business and about computer programming and a lot of practical skills that if I had only done paranormal research, I might not have learned.

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, clearly, you know, it's like the Steve Jobs speech. You can connect the dots going backwards, but not forwards. And maybe this is an argument for retrocausality or something, but the fact that you studied criminology and sociopathy and then you were like uniquely fitted to dealing with Ted Owens for as long as you did, that just doesn't feel coincidental to me.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  Well, Ted Owens himself had a similar career. He had, he was a high-speed typist in a law office. He was at one time a jazz musician, played the drums. He was a bullwhip artist in a sideshow and he had a knife-throwing act with his wife.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. Something that's coming to mind for me is I had a flashback of I learned this from you. You said this on New Thinking Aloud, that weird, the root of it is Celtic, W Y R D. And that actually means fate.

• 1:40:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  And so I find it very interesting that your fate is studying the weird, but in the modern, the modern connotation of weird. And I'd say the same for me in some ways.

• 1:40:22Speaker 02

  Some people think that weird is, is a word of disparagement, which is how it's used these days, but I think of it as being a positive, magical thing.

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, like, if you're part of the consensus, what are you adding? If you're weird, you know, you're, you're, you're at least adding and you know, you could, you could also be subtracting. It's, it's, it's one or the other. I always challenge people. I just debated Michael Shermer on the show. Is there one non-consensus thinker now that you would get behind?

• 1:40:53Speaker 15

  I don't know, because if I knew, I would get behind him.

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  But it's important to do that work, right? To take bets on.

• 1:40:59Speaker 15

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  You know, if history is moved forward by non-consensus thinkers, you know, of course, he gets, he claps back at me and he goes, well, you're picking the winners. You know, there are more bad non-consensus thinkers than good non-consensus thinkers. But I sort of maintain my, my point. If history is moved forward fundamentally by non-consensus thinkers, if you can't pick one non-consensus thinker now that you agree with, then you're probably on the wrong side of history. And so you're systematically compiling these non-consensus thinkers.

• 1:41:30Speaker 02

  Well, there's also been some recent studies, in fact, just published, I think a week ago, surveying physicists, because there is this idea that, oh, physicists have consensus. They all agree on the standard model of cosmology and physics. And the survey recently showed that adherence to the standard model is only about 30% of physicists. So the idea that there is a consensus is probably a myth.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, it's funny. Again, going back to the Shermer discussion, we were talking about dark matter, which is, when you think of dark matter, you think of it as this canonical staple in physics and modern day physics, part of the bedrock, right? And I'm getting into it with him and I'm like, wait, so light doesn't interact with this thing? And it kind of justifies gravity's weakness on a cosmological scale? But we have no idea what it is. We just call it dark matter. And then I'm going through all the UFO evidence, all the stuff around nuclear sites across the country. And I'm like, we directly measure these things on radar. We have optical, we have photos in the case of McMinnville and Lake Coate. We have video, we have, you know, experiencers, we have all these things. And I was like, do you believe in UFOs as much as you believe

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  in dark matter? And I eventually got him to sort of concede. But it's, it's really, so certain things are sacred cows and you're not supposed to kind of question them. But you're right. If you have, you know, a few drinks with a physicist, they'll often say, oh, yeah, there are all these problems with the standard model. I think at people's core, everybody's more idiosyncratic and less herd-like than it seems.

• 1:43:07Speaker 02

  Dark matter and dark energy are just words. They're placeholders for something's going on and we don't know what.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. With dark energy, you can literally put that through your favorite AI, Gemini, ChatGPT, whatever. And you say, you know, what is this? It's like, oh, it's cosmic inflation. What's the cosmic inflation being caused by? Oh, well, it's a repulsive, almost form of gravity, but it's, but it's not gravity. It's not one of the four fundamental forces. Like, what are you talking about at that point? And then you just like throw it in the model. You go, oh, okay. Oh, it's dark energy. Okay, cool. Okay, okay. Well, let's slam the door shut on that. And it's the same thing with quantum physics, as you know very well, with, you know, parapsychology, there are all these people who are like, you can't affect random quantum processes with your mind. And then you say, okay, well, what are you basing your dogmatic opposition to that on? And

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  they say something like, oh, the Copenhagen interpretation. Then you say, okay, what's the Copenhagen interpretation? Well, the father of quantum mechanics, Niels Bohr, said that, you know, you gotta kind of, you know, it's a mathematical formalism. It's not a descriptor of reality and, you know, holds no weight as far as ontological truth. If you think you understand it, you don't understand it. And then you, and then I'm like, okay, so you don't understand it. And then you had all these people at the time in quantum mechanics sort of flirting with the idea that maybe the mind is involved in wave function collapse, whether it was von Neumann or Wigner, or later David Bohm, who was seen as smarter than Einstein in many respects and was his student. And then it's like, well, this is totally unfalsifiable in both directions. Both, both sides have

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  sort of dogma. And then you have evidence on the side of the parapsychology people where you have all these random event generator experiments.

• 1:44:51Speaker 02

  It reminds me of a book by my old friend, Robert Anton Wilson.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  Who wrote, Reality is Whatever You Can Get Away With.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  That's amazing. That's wild. You were friends with that. What was he like?

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  He was a lovely person and he had a tragic life. He had polio as a child and, and then his daughter is beautiful. 15-year-old daughter was tragically murdered in Berkeley. But he was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And I have to say, I've now done a series of interviews with a fellow named Gabriel Kennedy, who has written a biography of him. And I don't think when I knew him, I thought of him as a brilliant novelist and a fun guy to be around and witty and a friend to Timothy Leary and so on. I didn't appreciate the

• 1:45:49Speaker 02

  depth of his thinking when I knew him then. And I'm trying to make up for that by doing more interviews about him now, because I think he was an important thinker.

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Definitely an important thinker and iconoclast as well.

• 1:46:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  Getting back to this idea that the soul survives the body and is kind of transcends the body. You have mystery rituals in all of these disparate cultures that sort of simulate death before death.

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:20Speaker 01

  You know, on this cathedral in Greece, around the Eleusinian mystery rituals, you had, you know, if you die before you die, you won't die when you die. And I'm probably botching that slightly, but that idea is prevalent across disparate cultures. And it's almost like the body is a collapsing function on a default state of greater omniscience. If you go back to Plato, the bodily senses are misleading and there's some fundamental prior truth involved in the soul. And when you temporarily kill the body, you somehow experience that soul state.

• 1:46:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  Is that something that has been ritualized across cultures? And does that exist at all today?

• 1:47:00Speaker 02

  I mean, a modern example of it would be the Psychomantium developed by Raymond Moody, that was based on the discovery in ancient Greece of underground temples where the priests lived underground and people who wanted to communicate with the dead would go visit them. And I think they've been uncovered archaeologically now. They would have a big bowl filled with water, which served as a device for scrying, the way a crystal ball or a mirror, so would work. And Raymond Moody said, all you really need

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  to do is go into a dark room with a mirror. And it's useful to have some preparation in advance and sit in the dark room with the mirror for a while and you'll see.

• 1:47:55Speaker 02

  That you'll have a communication or communion or an apparition will will appear. And people have now been researching that.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  It's an age old practice. Peter Kingsley writes about pre Socratic rituals, even before the Eleusinian mystery rituals, as does Heidegger, actually, where if you cut off all of the senses, it's not like you get silence, you get all sorts of weird apparitions. And then John Lilly, another CIA scientist, develops the sensory deprivation isolation tank. He claims to communicate with an alien intelligence he calls SSI. And, you know, that also seems to be like this thing that allows you to remote view and allows you to port your consciousness into all these disparate locations and and sense things that are beyond the five senses.

• 1:48:46Speaker 02

  There have been many experiments like the the psychomantium and work with the sensory isolation tanks and the Gansfeldt experiments. But really, I would say the a deeper cultivation of these skills would be found in, say, Tibetan Buddhism, where some practitioners will go into isolation for a year or more at a time, living just in a dark cell and staying awake while they enter into the dream state and and so on. There there's such a vast difference between, you know, what modern scientists are able

• 1:49:29Speaker 02

  to do today and what a an ancient tradition like Tibetan Buddhism has been able to accomplish over centuries.

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  It seems like a lot of religions, at least at their sort of more esoteric core, were centered around the liberation of the soul from the body, even the temporary liberation. And then you sort of come back and you have a higher purpose. You've experienced that more kind of primordial soul self and you understand your mission in life a little bit better.

• 1:49:58Speaker 02

  I would only qualify that by suggesting that while we use language that says the soul separates from the body, it might be almost the opposite. It might be like going deeper into the body.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Have you ever read Umberto Eco by any chance?

• 1:50:14Speaker 02

  I have.

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  He he has this great book called Foucault's Pendulum. And it's sort of, I don't know, in some ways, it's an interesting polemic on the whole research of UFOs or something. And like, he talks about these sort of ecstatic states that you that you reach in sort of a gnostic sense. And then through that, you can also, you know, experience like a higher gnosis or something. And I think I think it's, yeah, it's either deep embodiment or deprivation or something. You have the ascetic protocols of Saint Ignatius of Loyola. And then you have this other sort of more, you know, kind of like hedonistic, like full sensory thing. And maybe in both cases, you sort of, you know, transcend. I don't know.

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  I think the problem is human language. Actually, we have these categories. We're always trying to make something fit into a linguistic model. And we're dealing with a reality that transcends language.

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, it's like the sending and receiving, you know, receiving, you have to be selfless and sending, you have to be a little more aggressive or something. That's obviously an oversimplification, you know? Like, yeah, we're just, we're just so so in the Stone Age on this stuff. And I just hope, you know, it's like, what have we spent collectively on parapsychology in the open source world in the last 100 years? Probably 30 to 50 million bucks or something, if that. And what do we spend on one large hadron collider? $15 billion. And so that's the other retort to people who are like, well, why have you not made any progress? Well, there are no resources and academia has kind of largely shut it down despite the actual academics who are involved with this stuff, saying that there's something there.

• 1:51:58Speaker 02

  I just helped to create a doctoral and a master's degree program that includes a specialization in parapsychology at the California Institute for Human Science. And it's the first program of its kind since I used to teach at John F. Kennedy University back in around 1980, when they had a master's degree in parapsychology. And that program shut down, I think, after a year or two.

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  It's heartening to see that there's a sort of resurgence. If you take a basket, you know, psychedelics, UFOs, parapsychology, all of those things were like very in vogue in the 50s and 60s. And then something happened in the late 60s, early 70s, where a lot of these things just started to get marginalized. And you could say that you could be conspiratorial, say that that was kind of a systematic, you know, marginalization, things like, you know, Timothy Leary was this intelligence construct and he intentionally went overboard with these things, you know? I'm sure part of that is true. But it seems to be like a lot of these things are sort of coming back.

• 1:53:07Speaker 02

  Well, the work that you and I are each doing, just having a conversation like this that goes out over the internet is a way of expanding things slowly. But it seems as if the human population can only take so much at a time.

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's interesting. When you study the random event generators, there's almost like a rebound effect. So you're in like a flow state, you're getting, so, okay, so a one or a zero shows up on a graphical interface and that's tied to the random kind of quantum mechanical thing. And so the observer shows up, they say, I want more ones. And all of a sudden, they're getting more ones. They see a lot of ones, they see a lot of ones. There's a great book written about this by a guy named Herb Mertz, who was at the, you know, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Center. And he describes this, so you're in this flow state and it's just like you're shooting threes in basketball and you're making every shot. And you're like, how is this possible? Or you're playing poker and you're just winning everything over and over again.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  And then you become self conscious and you're like, I'm pretty good at this, aren't I? Wow, I'm I'm doing this. And you you start to over identify with your success. And then there's this sort of rebound effect. And it feels like when covering these sort of frontier consciousness things, I noticed that I, when I try to like speed run it and go too fast, there's this bizarre rebound effect. And it's like, well, not so fast. And it's almost like you you see a little mud gets slung at the thing that you were so high conviction in. And it it's like adaptively stigmatized in certain cases. Like, like, it's like, you know, both of us have these independent media, you know, it's like, it's it's on YouTube and stuff.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  And I think 90% plus of what you cover is really credible. And I'd say the same of of myself. But it somehow has to move through or permeate, you know, society in like this way that it like, it like can't be too fast or something. That's what I find. It's like there's some higher intelligence holding it back.

• 1:55:10Speaker 02

  Well, I think it goes back to Freud, actually, who who pointed out the whole idea of Freudian defense mechanisms is that we, as speaking of the human population, we don't really want to know what's in our own mind, let alone have other people be able to know what's in our own minds. So so there's a motivation to suppress these things at a very instinctual level. And and only slowly, I think, are people can now, for example, talk about topics that were forbidden in the 1950s.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's what I also find, and I'm sure you would resonate with this, is that the people who are deeply involved in UFO research and parapsychology research, it's often some autobiographical quest and they have synchronicities that got them into the field. And, you know, you read Ralph Blumenfeld's amazing, you know, The Believer, you know, about John Mack. And it's like, you think of John Mack as this, like, you point to him as this credentialed expert and you say, oh, he's looking into abduction. So take abduction seriously because he's a Harvard psychiatry guy. But then you read this book and you're like, oh, well, he was meeting with Stan Stavroff

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  and he was, you know, he was really, he had issues with his mother early on in life and like, you know, he was sort of reconnecting with himself through holotropic breathwork and through these techniques that he was evangelizing with, you know, these experiencers. And of course, you have to present things in ways that, you know, make nice with the kind of epistemological paradigm of the present day. But I think if everybody were to go full open kimono about their lives and why they believe what they believe, it would always be like super pre leveraged by some autobiographical quest and need for personal meaning.

• 1:57:06Speaker 02

  We talked about the word weird earlier and and it's my understanding that most people, probably well over 70% of the population, have something weird going on.

• 1:57:21Speaker 01

  That's right. No, I think they do. And I think this idea that you can't own that sucks and is stupid. I think we should just, like, you know, I interviewed Graham Hancock and his, the first piece that he ever did was it was like for, I think, a magazine or something. And he was writing an article on the Ark of the Covenant. And it was sort of this beautiful quest of like the search for all knowledge. And then, you know, through that, he, you know, then figured out that society, you know, civilization is probably much older than we think it is. You have Gobekli Tepe and other discoveries. And he sort of really helps rewrite history. But it was through this search for the Ark of the Covenant, which to me is like so significant, you know?

• 1:58:03Speaker 01

  And I think you have all these examples like that when you speak to a lot of these people off camera. And then on camera, you know, it's like you have to separate the observer and the observed, which can never really be done, you know? We're all following, we're all chasing our own mythologies. Everybody is, the skeptic is too.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  And people are afraid that if they talk about it openly, other people will think they're crazy.

• 1:58:28Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, that's the other thing about, you know, I love this Terrence McKenna quote where he says, "A secret is not something that isn't told, it's something that cannot be told."

• 1:58:38Speaker 11

  Still a secret. It's still a secret. It's the secret that can't be told.

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  And so I think some of these synchronicities, if you go open kimono with them, you really tell them to the world. They would land so flat and people would not take them seriously at all. They stigmatized themselves. And so I think they're extremely significant to the person and maybe to people with sort of ears to hear. But otherwise, I think they, you know, they wouldn't resonate at all. And so this ability to even resonate with these topics is also kind of a gating factor for shows like ours to take hold in society, too.

• 1:59:16Speaker 02

  That's one of the reasons I think that poetry is so important, that there's a way of expressing these truths that is non-threatening through, through language that is poetical rather than logical.

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  I would agree. You know, I think there's, there's sort of a semantic truth. And then there's truth that hits you on sort of a gnostic, deeper level. And yeah, poetry gets at that, art gets at that. Schopenhauer famously said, I think, music is the closest thing to the divine. And so, you know, yeah, we can, we can try to parse it all of these things semantically, but we're just, we're going to hopelessly triangulate a thing that is, is just, there's no way to, to, to really talk about it without experiencing it.

• 2:00:03Speaker 02

  That's true. And, and it seems as if having the firsthand experience makes, makes the difference. Most of the scientists who are really serious about this field have had the experience. And scientists who haven't had the experience tend to be skeptical, even when they look at the data.

• 2:00:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's right. When Carl Jung was asked, you know, do you believe in God? He said, I don't believe, I know. And, uh, yeah, I think there's a, there's a big difference between, you know, being able to sort of intellectually create a firmament behind, you know, saying something's real and then just knowing it in your core. Did you ever interact with a woman named Valerie Ransohn?

• 2:00:47Speaker 16

  Up at Northern Illinois University, 1971, October, it's around 11:00 AM. And I noticed a strange object above the student union building. It was like an aircraft without a fuselage and it was just suspended above the building. And that was my first experience.

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  She was like trying to communicate with aliens through xenolinguistics, through, there was this group called the Ethership, this guy Willard de Bogart. And, um, she was in the White House, actually.

• 2:01:17Speaker 02

  I did.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  You did?

• 2:01:19Speaker 02

  My goodness, yes. I, I was invited back, oh, it was just around the time I got married in 1978, 79. She convened a meeting in, um, down in the desert near, um, Joshua Tree. I think 29 palms in, in that area. And there was a group of about a dozen of us who showed up. And, and, um, she, she was a channeler. And she said she's in touch with what she called the boys upstairs. And she said, the boys upstairs are going to meet us.

• 2:02:02Speaker 02

  And, uh, at three in the morning, and we got into a group of, of Jeeps and drove out into the middle of the desert. She said, four UFOs are going to come and, and land and, and we're going to meet with them. And we're out in the desert, late at night, and we see, my mouth dropped open, four lights slowly descending.

• 2:02:29Speaker 01

  No way.

• 2:02:30Speaker 02

  Yes. And in front of us.

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  Do you know her whole history? Cause she is fascinating. She was a former model who was tied in with Puharich, but was also at the Nixon White House and had a lot of high access and was involved in a lot of deep scientific research. And, and, and there was like even, I think, a general who said that she, you know, was routinely at the Nixon White House.

• 2:02:58Speaker 02

  Well, when I knew her, she was working in the Gerald Ford White House.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  Well, there you go.

• 2:03:03Speaker 02

  And she was, uh, I think she, he had a program about inflation, wind, whip inflation now. And, and she was running that little program out of the White House and, uh,

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  Wait, so she was involved with inflation stuff?

• 2:03:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  She was, wait, this is crazy.

• 2:03:23Speaker 02

  If it's the same person, I'm pretty sure her name was Valerie, but this is so long ago, my memory could be fuzzy.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  I'm going to show you a picture, a video, but, but, yeah, go for it.

• 2:03:34Speaker 02

  The, the end of the story is that it turned out the four lights were, in that area, there was a marine base and they were out on maneuvers and what we were witnessing were flares.

• 2:03:45Speaker 01

  Oh, so do you think she was a kind of a con artist?

• 2:03:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:03:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:03:50Speaker 02

  No, I think it was synchronistic.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  It was a synchronicity?

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  So she could sort of engineer the synchronicity or something?

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  Well, or she got engineered by it.

• 2:03:58Speaker 01

  Or she got engineered by it. And then she went on to work with the Federal Reserve and like central banking?

• 2:04:05Speaker 02

  I never stayed in touch with her.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  Okay. But you were saying she was working on inflation in the, in the Gerald Ford White House?

• 2:04:12Speaker 02

  That's my recollection, yes.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  Whoa. Yeah, she's fascinating. I really want to interview her.

• 2:04:19Speaker 02

  I, I wonder if, I just haven't had any contact with her since 1979 or so.

• 2:04:25Speaker 01

  Who of the people who you've interviewed? Cause sometimes you meet these shadowy figures and you think that they know so much. And then you speak to them and you're like, you're just a person. You don't know, you know, you're, you're kind of groping in the dark like I am, you know? And then sometimes you meet certain people and you're, you have this kind of inkling of like, you're holding back. You know a lot more than you let on. Who of the people who you've interviewed fall into that second category?

• 2:04:54Speaker 02

  Well, I suppose.

• 2:04:57Speaker 01

  As you know, a lot of the guests I sit down with, whether they're physicists, intelligence officers, people who've worked inside black programs are operating at a really impressive level mentally. Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human beings. Often their work takes a toll and a lot of them track their health obsessively. Regular lab work, obscure biomarkers, often things that most people never look at. Meanwhile, last time I went to a primary care doctor, they ran maybe like eight biomarkers and they told me I was fine and sent me home. This massive difference between the ordinary, broken and limited healthcare system and what elite people are doing to track their health got me interested in Superpower.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

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• 2:06:24Speaker 01

  Make this the year you stop guessing about your health and you start getting serious with Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with code ALKMY. Head to superpower.com and use code ALKMY at checkout for $20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about them. So please make sure to mention American Alchemy to support the show. Who of the people who you've interviewed fall into that second category?

• 2:07:01Speaker 02

  Well, I suppose the most brilliant person who seemed to be in touch with, at a heart level with the deepest reality that I ever met was probably Jean Houston, who died just about two months ago.

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  Tell me about Jean Houston.

• 2:07:22Speaker 02

  She, um, and her husband, Robert Masters, co-authored a book called Varieties of Psychedelic Experience in about 1968. She, so she was regarded as a, one of the founders of psychedelic research, one of the founders of the human potential movement. And she created what she called a mystery school, which I attended for some years. And she had the ability, a very rare gift, to induce mystical experiences.

• 2:07:58Speaker 01

  She could induce mystical experiences? What, what do you mean by that?

• 2:08:02Speaker 02

  Well, for example, on one occasion, I was in her mystery school program and she gave a lecture on Carlos Suarez's book. He's a Kabbalist. He wrote a book called The Cypher of Genesis. And she went through the very first sentence of the book of Exodus, Book of Genesis. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And she went through it in Hebrew, letter by letter.

• 2:08:35Speaker 02

  Berechet, barad, onoi, elo, wehem, et cetera, in Hebrew.

• 2:08:43Speaker 02

  In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And somehow, as I'm listening to this lecture, I got it. And I had the experience of how it happened, how God created this universe. And I was rolling on the floor and I was laughing hysterically. I thought it was the funniest thing in the world that God created all of this. And the next minute I'd be in tears, tears of joy, really. And, and she saw me like that, rolling on the floor, having this experience. And she looked at me and she winked.

• 2:09:29Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:09:30Speaker 02

  And she said to me, oh, so you're having an epiphany.

• 2:09:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but almost like in this cheeky way, like she knew exactly what she had induced.

• 2:09:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:42Speaker 01

  That's wild.

• 2:09:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:44Speaker 01

  She sounds like an ascended master or something.

• 2:09:46Speaker 02

  And she was known for that. I'm certainly not the only person. People who knew her well had these kinds of experiences in her presence.

• 2:09:56Speaker 01

  It's interesting how it's often the people that aren't super self promotional. And like, I don't know what your experience of her was, but I imagine she wasn't very egotistical or showy about her abilities.

• 2:10:10Speaker 02

  Well, she had a lot of theatrical talent. I can say that.

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  Okay, fair enough.

• 2:10:14Speaker 02

  Very talented. She could have been an actress and, and she did voices and, and she was within the human potential community, very well known.

• 2:10:23Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. Well, maybe she was self promotional. I don't know.

• 2:10:27Speaker 02

  Well, you know, she supported herself throughout her life by doing these workshops and traveling around the world. And she worked with many, many different cultures. I would say, you know, she was, she knew how to live a very full life.

• 2:10:48Speaker 01

  Did you ever get deeper with her on her understanding of the nature of reality? And did she ever say anything that was pretty wild about that?

• 2:10:57Speaker 02

  Well, I think that time she winked at me was about as close as I got.

• 2:11:01Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah.

• 2:11:02Speaker 02

  She's written many books, maybe about

• 2:11:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:11:05Speaker 02

  20 books.

• 2:11:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:11:07Speaker 02

  You know, she was amongst the, she had a big following. Let me, let me put it that way.

• 2:11:14Speaker 01

  You mentioned meeting Robert Monroe. That's pretty fascinating. He is another guy who studied consciousness. A lot of people now cite this hemisync paper from the mid 1980s that involves synchronization of both hemispheres. And you have the Monroe Institute, of course, in Virginia. What was he like?

• 2:11:33Speaker 02

  Well, he seemed like a very self-effacing person. He was quiet. He, he invited me to kind of join his program, but I was already in school at Berkeley, so it wouldn't have been feasible or realistic for me at the time. I kind of imagine what would life have been like if I had, I've done a whole series of interviews with Tom Campbell, who worked with him closely. And Tom has wonderful stories about how the Monroe Institute got built up. And as a result of his experiences, he's developed, I would say, a very credible

• 2:12:15Speaker 02

  theory of, of how these things work. Tom believes that he has the theory, the answer.

• 2:12:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:12:25Speaker 02

  And I don't know if I'd go quite that far, but I think he's very close.

• 2:12:29Speaker 01

  You gotta tap into the right data stream.

• 2:12:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's fascinating. Yeah, I think he also was at NASA, right? Tom Campbell?

• 2:12:37Speaker 02

  Possibly. I'm not sure about that.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  So you've just intersected with all these amazing people. I feel like I'm missing somebody and I'm going to kick myself after this interview if I, if I miss anyone. So

• 2:12:48Speaker 01

  are there, are there any other kind of new thinking allowed guests that stick out for you that sort of shocked you or helped you develop your own worldview?

• 2:12:57Speaker 02

  Well, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Arthur Young.

• 2:13:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:13:02Speaker 02

  He, he was

• 2:13:03Speaker 01

  Your mentor.

• 2:13:03Speaker 02

  A mentor to me. And he was the inventor of the Bell helicopter, the first commercially licensed helicopter. He was an amazing human being. I would put him right up there with Gene Houston in, in terms of the people who have influenced me the most intellectually and at a heart level. When I was just beginning my graduate program in parapsychology, he showed up in my life and invited me to live with him, to move into the Institute for the Study of Consciousness he had set up in Berkeley. So I had that experience. And he was a theorist.

• 2:13:48Speaker 02

  He had a theory of everything, which I also regard as being very credible.

• 2:13:53Speaker 01

  What was his theory?

• 2:13:55Speaker 02

  Well, it's complex. It, it's enunciated in his book, The Reflexive Universe. And it, I would say it's consistent with the idea that the, the process, the whole universal process is one of spirit descending into matter and then matter ascending back into the realm of spirit.

• 2:14:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:14:23Speaker 02

  And so there's like a V shape. And it starts out, pure spirit, he would equate with light. And, and we talked earlier about how if you're a photon, time and space don't even exist. But then you go from light to particles and the idea of attraction and repulsion. And then to atoms where you get form, something really solid and stable and molecules. And then you get complex molecular chains, like DNA and RNA. And, and that's the beginning of where matter is moving back to the realm of spirit. And then you get life forms, single

• 2:15:05Speaker 02

  celled creatures and plants and animals and ultimately humans. What he did is he created what he called the grid. And he took, in effect, the periodic table of the elements. And he expanded it to be a periodic table of everything.

• 2:15:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:15:26Speaker 02

  So within the human kingdom, based on this model, he placed modern humans, such as you and I, right about in the middle, in the same place in the animal kingdom, we would be equivalent to clams in terms of the potential of what an animal could be that. So he would say the potential for, you know, to be fully capable of what a, a conscious, sentient being like a human could be, we have a long way to go.

• 2:15:57Speaker 01

  I think about that sometimes, like when we talk about non-human intelligences, we talk about them as others. We don't talk about them as a continuum from us. And we were just talking about how latent in every human are these psi powers, abilities to sort of remote view, be intuitive, you know, be clairvoyant in certain cases. And that seems to be fully developed in the case of these kind of non-human entities. And so why would you think of those entities as wholly distinct from you, rather than kind of the next step on a chain of evolution? And there are theorists, you know, pre Darwin that used to think of the body or the vessel or the structure as following what could

• 2:16:40Speaker 01

  kind of hold the spirit. And when the spirit sort of like graduated that specific kind of training ground, then it would ascend into like another form. And so, and then you have, I don't know, great researchers like Don Hoffman, who's at, you know, UC San Diego. And he describes embodiment as actually maladaptive for consciousness. And so we're likely just teeming with, you know, disembodied consciousness where it's, there's less latency and there's more, you know, just ability to sort of instantly react and like know everything very quickly. And, and so it's just so interesting. Did, would Arthur Young sort of agree with that graded ascent of man?

• 2:17:24Speaker 02

  I, I imagine he would, but I think he also felt that figures like Jesus or Buddha represented the future for humanity.

• 2:17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's a great future.

• 2:17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  So cool, too, that he started again, another guy, nuts and bolts, inventor of the Bell helicopter. Nobody can take that from him. And then he gets really, I mean, I know he was close with you and Puharich as well. And he was involved in some of those séances with the nine and stuff.

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  That's all true.

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  So that's just such a, such a fascinating, clearly a polymath.

• 2:17:58Speaker 02

  Well, here's the fascinating thing about him to me. He, he was born, as I recall, in 1905. He went to school at Princeton, graduated in 1926, studied Einstein's theory of relativity back then, when it was really new. And, and Alfred North Whitehead's process philosophy. And he wanted to do process philosophy himself, which is really what his theory is. It's about universal process. But he also felt that philosophy as a field had failed

• 2:18:40Speaker 02

  because it didn't anticipate all of the progress that humanity was making through technology. And he said to himself as a young man, 21 years old, in order to be worthy of doing philosophy, he had to show that he could master something in the physical world.

• 2:19:02Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:19:03Speaker 02

  So he went to the patent office in, in Washington and looked for unsolved problems. He discovered that there had been, at that point in 1926, maybe 200 different efforts to build what we now call a helicopter, a, a machine that could hover in midair. And they had all failed. So he set out with no particular background in engineering to, to solve that problem. And he worked on it from 1926 up until the first commercial helicopters came off the assembly line at Bell Helicopters, 1947.

• 2:19:46Speaker 01

  That is remarkable. And to talk about precociousness on the part of somebody so young.

• 2:19:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:52Speaker 01

  To, I mean, most people you hear about these stories like, you know, Edison or Tesla or something. It was like in their DNA from a, you know, young age. And they were sort of playing with this stuff really early on. In his case, it's like to come to that intellectual conclusion and then to just go full force into, you know, and then, and then to actually invent the helicopter, the Bell helicopter. That's amazing.

• 2:20:13Speaker 02

  And he spent the first 12 years, as I recall, working on a design that at the end of the day failed completely, like mini rotors at the ends of, of the big rotors. But he kept at it. He maintained his focus. And after the helicopter had been released and he was, you know, at that point, a very famous and wealthy person, then he decided he had earned the right to do philosophy.

• 2:20:41Speaker 17

  And I think, well, all these machineries and things are, teach us laws, how to make things. That's why I wanted to make the helicopter, so I could learn how to make things. It, it, it helps in, in how to put a philosophy together.

• 2:20:58Speaker 01

  You picked a great mentor.

• 2:21:00Speaker 02

  He picked me.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  Well, as it's often the case, it's sort of bidirectional or meant to be, but that is so cool that what an amazing and complete life, you know, I think I always find it interesting when somebody's kind of an industrialist and they interact with the physical world because philosophy can at times be divorced from it. You don't get the feedback from the kind of cold, hard, free market or, you know, cold, hard mechanics of technology. But then on the other side, you can end up in this sort of Philistine, you know, I just need to make more money and you're sort of, you know, have a lifeless attitude towards your consumers if you don't have the philosophical angle. And so I think having, having both is very cool.

• 2:21:44Speaker 02

  Yes, it can be a trap to be very wealthy. Most of the wealthy people I've ever known have been miserable, but not all of them. Another major supporter of my work was a fellow named Buck Charleston, who invented power steering.

• 2:22:00Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:22:01Speaker 02

  And, and the hydraulic motor. And he, he was a person without much formal education and the ideas would just pop into his mind like with Tesla, fully formed. And, and then he, he was working with farmers in, in Minnesota and he would ask them, well, what, what do you need? And, and as a result of that, he would make, build inventions to satisfy the needs of the local farmers. And that led to a hydraulic motor. He built, I think the first one maybe came out in about 1964 or so. It was called the Geroder.

• 2:22:42Speaker 02

  And as far as I know, they're still manufacturing them using the same design.

• 2:22:50Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 2:22:52Speaker 02

  So he felt that his, his fortune and his, his fame came to him from an intuitive source, and therefore he wanted to give back to the source.

• 2:23:05Speaker 01

  Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. You know, it's also just so interesting that when you audit the scientific process, it looks a lot more like revelation than it does like some final inductive logic step.

• 2:23:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:20Speaker 01

  Where you just finish the equation. Often it's like, you know, you're in Einstein's case, a patent clerk and you're sort of dozing off, you know, or you get, you get some sort of, I'm a big fan of this mid-century inventor named Thomas Townsend Brown. I don't know if you're familiar with him.

• 2:23:35Speaker 02

  I believe I've heard of him.

• 2:23:36Speaker 01

  He worked in the world of gravity manipulation and I think made more inroads than meets the eye. I think his work was sort of suppressed, but he attributes a lot of his life's work to a UFO experience he had, I think at the age of 17 on Catalina Island. It was like this hierophony.

• 2:23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm sure there are many more cases like that we don't know about.

• 2:23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I think if scientists were to scientifically study the phenomena of science, they would find it to look a lot more like, you know, religious experience than they would, what they, what it's conceived of in the modern day. It's similar to your sort of, you know, lack of consensus around the standard model polemic.

• 2:24:13Speaker 02

  There was a philosopher of science who took that attitude, who I got to meet Paul Fireobin.

• 2:24:19Speaker 01

  Oh, I love him against method.

• 2:24:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:22Speaker 01

  Tell us about him.

• 2:24:23Speaker 02

  Well, he, when he published his book, you may know that there was an astrology chart he put on the back page. He took real issue with the scientists, about a hundred of them from the psychop, primarily motivated to publish an article, a, a, what would you call it? A white paper or something criticizing astrology, scientists who knew nothing about astrology. And he, he, he said that this was a total abuse of the scientific method to claim that they had an authority to, to say that astrology was nonsense. So he published his own chart on, on the back of his book.

• 2:25:05Speaker 02

  And he said, if you look at what scientists actually do, the great discoveries in science are often accidental, or they come from people who totally disregarded what we think of as, you know, popper and the, the scientific method.

• 2:25:23Speaker 01

  No, totally. Yeah, I love the example of Marconi, who was right because he was wrong. He thought that electromagnetic waves might curve one, and so he tried to send it across the Atlantic, but he just didn't anticipate the ionosphere. So the electromagnetic wave bounced off the ionosphere accidentally, and then he sent the, the message successfully. I think poking at the boundaries of reality often gets you really amazing results. And it, like you said, sort of can be accidental. And that's not to say, you know, it's like the persistence finds you when you're hard at work. You need the, you need the hard work. Often it's helpful to have some domain expertise, but you know, the thesis of that book against

• 2:26:05Speaker 01

  method, the idea that there's some sort of formula and to be this sort of pedantic nitpicking expert makes you most likely to be next in line for the, the actual next innovation, I think is sort of a ridiculous notion.

• 2:26:17Speaker 02

  Well, you know, who really put Robert Temple on the path that he's on?

• 2:26:22Speaker 01

  Who?

• 2:26:23Speaker 02

  Arthur Young.

• 2:26:24Speaker 01

  No way.

• 2:26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:25Speaker 01

  So, so Arthur Young put Robert Temple on the path that he's on?

• 2:26:30Speaker 02

  Robert Temple, when he was a teenager, he was very precocious and he, if I recall correctly, he got a scholarship and he was a student. It might've been Temple University or another university in Philadelphia where Arthur Young was living. And somehow they got connected and as a teenager in college, younger than his classmates, Robert, Arthur Young sort of took him under his wing and he actually helped Arthur write the first draft of the reflexive universe.

• 2:27:07Speaker 01

  That's amazing. That's such a wild story. So for the audience, a little bit of context on Robert Temple, he's this amazing, also very polymathic thinker. He's written a few different books. He wrote a book called The Sirius Mystery, actually about the Dogon people in, in which African country? In, I think in Mali?

• 2:27:29Speaker 02

  I forget.

• 2:27:30Speaker 01

  And they, they somehow, you know, in their tradition, knew that there were two Sirius planets, Sirius A and Sirius B, or is it two stars?

• 2:27:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, two Sirius stars, a binary star system. And, you know, astronomy sort of backed it up much later. And, you know, there, they had a whole, you know, people that were kind of coming from that civilization that, you know, endowed humanity with arts and sciences and wisdom and knowledge. But he also has written an amazing book called A New Science of Heaven.

• 2:28:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:28:02Speaker 01

  And this book combines, I'd say plasma physics with metaphysics.

• 2:28:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:28:07Speaker 01

  And it is amazing because, you know, usually I open up these books and I'm like, I'm expecting a lot of kind of woo woo mushy brain thinking, a lot of, you know, mutually exclusive things are true at the same time, you know, everything is everything's style stuff. And I'm reading this book and he's talking about Nobel Prize winners who he's, you know, regularly in communication with, goes through a whole history of plasma physics and then connects that with how, you know, Moses speaking to the burning bush could be like a plasmoid or whatever. That's, you know, kind of a modern UFO encounter. And then specifically talks about Kortolovski clouds.

• 2:28:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:28:43Speaker 01

  In the L5 position, he's written an amazing research paper as a kind of a follow-up on this, which is this Kortolovski cloud between, at the Lagrangian point, between the moon and the earth.

• 2:28:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:28:57Speaker 01

  And so the Lagrangian point is where gravity perfectly cancels out so that this like sort of big plasma ball can sort of sit there. And he believes that it's responsible for these long delay echoes, these radio transmissions that were sent in the early 1920s, where, you know, sometimes a few minutes later, you'd get the exact same message back that you sent out. And he thought that those messages were coming from this Kortolovski cloud.

• 2:29:26Speaker 02

  He claims that plasma itself is self-organizing. It plasma is physical, but it's non-molecular. It's really ionic and most of the universe is composed of plasma. Stars are made out of plasma. The large gas clouds that cover the galaxy are largely made out of plasma, although there's some what they call dust mixed in with the plasma. And plasma physicists have said it's incredibly self-organizing. So these, they're called the Kortolovski clouds. There are two of them, as I recall at the L5 point.

• 2:30:09Speaker 02

  They are approximately nine times as large as the earth itself. They're barely visible to our instruments because the plasma clouds are, how would you describe it? Are, they're not dense. And, uh, but he says that the, the plasma cloud can have a structure far more sophisticated or intricate than the human body. And he believes they could be conscious entities.

• 2:30:43Speaker 01

  So fascinating. And there are studies now supporting that where, you know, uh, plasma seems to cohere to a human heartbeat when a person walks up to it. Uh, it's almost like the random event generators where when you look at plasma, it seems fundamentally erratic and random, but it can cohere almost in an intelligent way. You can get really cold bits of plasma coinciding with really hot bits of plasma. And this goes hand in hand with Rupert Sheldrake's idea that the sun is conscious because the sun is obviously made of plasma and maybe coronal mass ejections or, you know, cosmic radiation is a way of shining that, sending that intelligence, you know, to earth in some way.

• 2:31:26Speaker 02

  Well, the universe would be 99% composed of plasma. And for people who say, and I think it's very credible that the universe as a whole is conscious, that, that would be a way of thinking about it.

• 2:31:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. Atomic matter is the exception to the rule. And most of, uh, what constitutes the universe are actually these charged ions. And then you get into really interesting ways of connecting that with your, you know, uh, survival of the soul after death research where, okay, where does the energy of the soul go? And maybe it's around us. Maybe it's always surrounding us and maybe it exists in these sort of plasma forms. And when you see testimonies of, you know, people in the quote unquote UFO legacy program, and these plasma balls seem to kind of cohere and become inert and turn into these solid objects and then come out of the sky once they're summoned. Or it's a

• 2:32:27Speaker 01

  certain cases directed energy is used against them, which is really sort of dystopian thing to even think about. Um, it's like plasma can turn back into particulate matter and then particulate matter can turn back into plasma. And that's not even an anti-scientific thing to say, because these are just phase transitions that can occur all the time.

• 2:32:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:32:46Speaker 01

  But maybe that's what happens when you die. So you go into your plasma state.

• 2:32:49Speaker 02

  I, I think, uh, there's another wrinkle that you could add to that, which is the idea of, uh, higher dimensions of space, which are essential in string theory and the whole series of related theories, membrane theory and so on in physics, all involve the mathematics of, um, higher states of, or let's say additional states of physical space, uh, in addition to the three dimensions that we normally experience. Mathematically, you can go right up to what's called Hilbert space, which is a space of infinitely many dimensions.

• 2:33:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:33:34Speaker 02

  So I, I don't think we can rule that out either, although I know Arthur Young, who was a huge inspiration to Robert Temple, would disagree. Arthur would have said that what we really should look at is a reduction in dimensions, not more dimensions.

• 2:33:50Speaker 01

  I don't know what we should look at. You know, I think there's some, we're bumping up against our, our, our limits, but you know, Ken Wilson, who was a physicist at CERN, he had this idea, uh, called renormalization, where materials would go through phase transitions based on the amount of energy that was being kind of input into the material. And they would, uh, have properties attributed to them that would be totally disconnected from one another, depending on the energy state of, you know, what's, what's being kind of, you know, transmitted to the material.

• 2:34:21Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:34:22Speaker 01

  And so you could think of physics like that too. And you could think of that, you know, with respect to energy and maybe with respect to scale as well. And so you have to wonder what's going on with plasma, you know, and, um, speaking of its connection with, you know, possible soul afterlife, that sort of stuff. In Buddhist traditions, uh, and Shinto traditions, I don't know if you're familiar with this Japanese concept of the hitodama, but it's these, uh, plasma orbs that represent the soul. And they sort of, you know, go up in the afterlife. If you can watch like a, you know, Miyazaki film, like the boy in the Huron. And it's sort of this whole, actually almost Persephone's

• 2:35:02Speaker 01

  quest style, um, you know, tale of the afterlife. But you see these little, you know, plasma balls, and these are these souls that are disembodied.

• 2:35:13Speaker 02

  I'm not familiar with that, but it would make sense. And I think Robert Temple would concur. He, he has told me that he has communicated with plasma beings.

• 2:35:23Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:35:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:35:24Speaker 01

  He's personally communicated with plasma beings?

• 2:35:26Speaker 02

  He, he, I did a lengthy interview with Robert in which he talked about astral projection, traveling through the universe. But he described a moment, he was flying on an airplane and he said a plasma being entered the airplane and he had a lengthy conversation with her. It was a female.

• 2:35:45Speaker 18

  I had some extremely important interactions, uh, when I was flying to Singapore at 38,000 feet or whatever it was. And one of them came into the plane. Uh, she was a young woman, a higher entity. And, um, and she, she, I was asleep, um, and she bent over, I could see her in my sleep bending over, because she's about eight feet tall, you know, the, these higher entities are always tall. Um, and she kissed the top of my head and woke me up.

• 2:36:22Speaker 01

  What did she talk about with him?

• 2:36:24Speaker 02

  She talked about her relationship with her father, of, of all things.

• 2:36:30Speaker 01

  Wow. And but so she was just a fully like disconnected from his own life?

• 2:36:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:36Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:36:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that's what he claimed. And, you know, if it was anyone else other than Robert Temple, I probably would have dismissed the idea completely. But, uh, he's a solid credible person to my way of thinking.

• 2:36:50Speaker 01

  No, I think he's a really hard headed guy. And now I'm, you know, maybe I'm over pattern matching here, you know, as, as one tends to do sometimes with these topics. But I think of blue beings showing up. I've had a past guest who was a construction worker and a blue being showed up in his bedroom and transmitted sophisticated physics principles to him. And it put him on the radar of Eric Davis and Hal Putoff, people who, you know, whose physics prowess, you know, is kind of hard to argue with. You have this amazing blue being experience that prompts you to get into quantum physics.

• 2:37:23Speaker 19

  Because of what this being had showed me, I started looking into this notion of longitudinal scalar waves. Now, these were shown to me by this being as slinky, so to speak, that that exists all around us.

• 2:37:34Speaker 01

  You know, he's really interested in all these kind of non-standard, you know, extended electro-dynamical models and speaks about these things in like fairly sophisticated ways where like, I don't know how you get from construction worker to that. And so he's talking about this blue plasma being transmitting this information to him.

• 2:37:52Speaker 02

  There are other examples of, of blue beings. Whitley Strieber, uh, talks about them. He calls them cobalts.

• 2:38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, wow.

• 2:38:00Speaker 02

  And I did an interview with Robin Foy, who was, uh, one of the, uh, people who organized what's called the skull experiment in psychical research. It's, uh, uh, one of the strongest cases, uh, in the literature of a, an ongoing research program that manifested all sorts of dramatic paranormal phenomena. And, and Robin Foy was the central organizer of that. He's now deceased. But he talked about a being in séances where a blue extraterrestrial being would manifest, manifest physically to the point where he could touch them.

• 2:38:43Speaker 01

  Whoa. And these blue beings, I feel like are generally described as good. But I, maybe that's just my own anecdotal experience. Is that your understanding too? Like, I think of gray aliens and they seem neutral at best and harmful at worst. Um, and then these, these blue beings are often, you know, I was just at this Joe Dispenza retreat, you know, and, and it was really interesting. Uh, and, you know, you're doing these meditations and, you know, you're tapping into your pineal gland. And in some ways, it's like a systematization of like a Kundalini experience. And so I think there's a lot of precedent for all sorts of miraculous healings occurring through this method. Dispenza says that in

• 2:39:26Speaker 01

  his, uh, you know, deep meditations, blue beings show up in the room and they tell him that the collective, the people in the conference need to vibrate higher in order for the blue beings to fully manifest and heal. And, and often in these healing, these like kind of spontaneous healing occurrences, the people say that the blue beings are doing the healing.

• 2:39:51Speaker 02

  It's interesting. I don't know much about it, really.

• 2:39:55Speaker 01

  I don't either. But in your anecdotal experiences, are the blue beings generally positive? Or?

• 2:39:59Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I would say so, but I probably say the same thing about all of them. I can't say that I'm very knowledgeable, not ever having had any firsthand experience with any ET type of being. I've heard positive things about the grays and the mantids and the Nordics and the, maybe not the reptilians, but I wouldn't necessarily discount them either.

• 2:40:28Speaker 01

  I recently heard of a positive story with a reptilian. So, and I don't know this guy very well, but it's like, I don't know.

• 2:40:37Speaker 02

  Well, I'll tell you my bottom line on all of this, and it comes through the Ra channelings that Puharich was involved in with Carla Rukert, who published the Ra material and the Law of One. I like the Law of One. I subscribe to it. And it is that we are one with every, everything. So, you know, the most hideous creatures on earth or elsewhere are part of who we are.

• 2:41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels like that. Sometimes these beings, and I was re-listening to your interview with John Mack, and John Mack's talking about all these abductees. And they're talking about being in a fear state, obviously, the first time, the ontological shock, you see a gray being in your bedroom or something. Then he took it one step deeper with you, and he said, but often the abductee starts to identify with the, the being.

• 2:41:33Speaker 20

  A very powerful dimension of this phenomenon is what I call the double identity aspect. When you go deeply into the experience, we get past the trauma of the reproductive insults that are involved here, and you come to a place where the individual's acknowledged, particularly through connection through the eyes, which is a very profound aspect of this, the joining, the bonding that occurs through the, the eye connection. When you get past that, you, the experiencers, as they're called, will often experience themselves as aliens, that they have a whole other identity as an alien.

• 2:42:07Speaker 01

  And there's this sort of double identity, where it's like, they actually remember sort of seeing themselves through the being's eyes, or being the being themselves. And so that's just fascinating. It's this idea you can sort of port your consciousness into anything.

• 2:42:23Speaker 02

  Terrence McKenna had an interesting way of describing that. He said, we are so unfamiliar with our own depths, that when we get confronted with, with it, we think it's an alien.

• 2:42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, are you familiar with Kabbalistic traditions, where often demonic seeming or bad beings show up when somebody is sort of seeking some primordial truth? And those beings, it's like the, there's a Mozart flute symphony, where you fly by these demons, and, you know, you're playing flute, and then they turn into your angels after you like get past that level. And so in a lot of these sort of celestial ascent traditions, there are seven levels, and you have to like discard, you know, a garment, or you have to say a passcode or something at each level, whether it's, you know, Rosicrucianism

• 2:43:18Speaker 01

  or Sumerian, or, you know, the Hecalotes, you know, in, in, in the Hebrew tradition.

• 2:43:25Speaker 02

  Well, it's said, and I think it's true, if you visit cathedrals, or especially various temples in Asia, there are demons guarding every temple. And, and they're there for a purpose. In Buddhism, they're in the service of the Buddha.

• 2:43:42Speaker 01

  Yes. Or they're an excavation of your own impure motivations.

• 2:43:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:48Speaker 01

  And in order to be in the holiest of holiest arc of the covenant, you have to be really of pure intent.

• 2:43:56Speaker 02

  And you have to confront your own shadow.

• 2:43:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. What's the, the Jung quote, you know, until you confront your subconscious, you call it fate.

• 2:44:07Speaker 02

  I haven't heard that one, but it makes perfect sense. It's consistent with what we're talking about, that oftentimes, and very often in the UFO literature, people who are abducted, take Whitley Strieber as an example, who said he was raped anally. And to this day, decades later, he puts ointment on to cover the wounds he experienced. But at the end of the day, he says, it was a communion.

• 2:44:37Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. He is so fascinating. Like, you know, I know there are a lot of people that dismiss him. I think he's extremely high openness. This is the tricky thing with a lot of these people. It's like, the high openness is what requires the greater epistemology and the greater amount of experience that these people, they have literally like a wider aperture.

• 2:44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:59Speaker 01

  But then, because they're high openness, they're what I think traditional Western skeptics would also call credulous. So it's this weird hand in hand, you know, like, one has to go with the other, almost. And so I would describe Whitley as somebody like that. And I don't know if you experience this, but when I'm in Whitley's presence, I feel something. I feel like, oh, you're like in a, your reality is like a local pocket of consensus reality that is different than the one I'm normally operating in.

• 2:45:31Speaker 02

  Jeffrey Kreipel, who co-authored a book with Whitley, tells about the time they shared a room together at the Esalen Institute. And in the middle of the night, Jeffrey had this experience, and all he could think was, oh, my God. Like, this is real, and it's happening now. And he warned me, because I have invited Whitley to stay in my house. He said, you better be ready for what, what you experience. And I think my philosophy is, you know, welcome at all. As terrifying as it may seem, it's probably all for our

• 2:46:14Speaker 02

  good. I mean, we, we live on this planet in, in a world where probably 50% of the human population are experiencing terrible privations, and misery, and political repression, and not enough food, and terrible diseases that are not being attended to. But there's a reason for all of that. And I think ultimately, that we're here to know that we could experience anything. We could experience being evaporated in the middle of a nuclear explosion, and then discover that we'll survive even that.

• 2:46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's beautiful. That brings to mind a quote, which is, with God, all things are possible.

• 2:47:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:03Speaker 01

  What does that mean to you?

• 2:47:05Speaker 02

  Well, among other things, it could mean all things are God.

• 2:47:10Speaker 01

  So you think we are splintered fragments of a whole, and we are sort of reconnecting to that whole? We are, we are piecing, piecing ourselves back together?

• 2:47:24Speaker 02

  We exist for the purpose of, so that that whole can come to know itself.

• 2:47:30Speaker 01

  Hmm. It's like an Alan Watts idea.

• 2:47:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:35Speaker 01

  That's brilliant. Well, Jeffrey, this has been a blast. Again, and I know we could go for another few hours, but we'll, we'll do a round two at some point. I'll have to come to New Mexico. And yeah, I just really, I appreciate your time. And yeah, everything you've contributed to humanity with your show, your work. And yeah, you're such a rich kind of pool of all sorts of amazing history. I mean, just the amount of people you've intersected with, who to me are like these, you know, Godfather legends, Godmother legends.

• 2:48:07Speaker 02

  If you come to New Mexico, it would be a pleasure and an honor for me to interview you.

• 2:48:12Speaker 01

  Oh, come on. I'm down. You say the word. I would love to come out.

• 2:48:16Speaker 02

  Okay. Good.

• 2:48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that, that would be a instant yes.

• 2:48:20Speaker 02

  We'll put it in the calendar.

• 2:48:22Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Well, thank you. That would be so fun. I don't know. I don't know if I'm qualified, but I'll, child, come prepared. Thank you so much, Jeffrey. Well, cool. Till next time. Till, till Albuquerque. All right.

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