Pod Insights All In The Mind Divination isn’t scientific, but can it ever be therapeutic? About this episode Love it or hate it, there are reasons you might read your star sign and relate to what it says about you as a person.
We all fall into cognitive traps — but if we’re aware of them, is it such a bad thing to indulge in your daily horoscope, or a tarot card reading?
Today, we delve into the occult, to understand why some people seek messages from the universe, and if it can play a role in therapeutic care.
If you want to hear more about otherworldly beliefs, check out our episode Spooky science: What's behind a paranormal experience? https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/allinthemind/paranormal-experiences-and-psychology/104409892
And Soul Search also has an episode called Astrology and tarot — telling the future, or connecting with the present? https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/soul-search/astrology-and-tarot/105499216
Guests:
Professor Susan Krauss WhitbourneProfessor Emerita of Psychological and Brain Sciences, University of Massachusetts Amherst
Ryan FindlayPsychotherapist and tarot reader
Credits:
Presenter: Sana QadarReporter/producer: Shelby TraynorSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineer: Simon BranthwaiteExtra information:
When It Comes to Personality Tests, a Dose of Skepticism Is a Good Thing https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201008/when-it-comes-personality-tests-dose-skepticism-is-good-thingWhy You Might Not Want to Trust a Personality Test – Psychology Today https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/fulfillment-at-any-age/202507/why-you-might-not-want-to-trust-a-personality-testThe validity of astrological predictions on marriage and divorce: a longitudinal analysis of Swedish register data https://genus.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s41118-020-00103-5Even the stars think that I am superior: Personality, intelligence and belief in astrology https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886921007686The Power of Rituals – Psychology Today https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/dont-forget-the-basil/202104/the-power-of-rituals
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0:08 Speaker 01 Hey there, Mark Fennel here and I have a brand new podcast. No one saw it coming. Each week we hunt for seemingly insignificant moments that changed the course of history. And let me tell you, we've found some wild ones. Like the murder that caused absinthe to be banned pretty much everywhere for around a century and the wrong turn that started a world war. It's the podcast that will completely change the way you look at history. No one saw it coming. Find it now on the ABC Listen app.
0:37 Speaker 02 Whenever I read a description of my star sign, which let me preface this by saying is not often, I do think that kind of fits. I don't really believe in astrology and horoscopes. Actually, I don't believe them at all, but I am totally a Sagittarius. According to astrologers, if you're a Sagittarius, you like new experiences and travel, you're curious and a storyteller, hello, you can also be blunt. I've lived in Washington DC, Beijing, London, Qatar, New Delhi and now Sydney. I tell stories for a living and as my husband can attest, I can be blunt. It all feels like too much of a coincidence not to be true.
1:19 Speaker 02 But the idea that celestial objects and events can determine your personality or how your life is going to go, it's not exactly backed up by science.
1:28 Speaker 03 The position of the planets has a lot to do with your inner dynamics. So sure, but you know, some people really take it seriously.
1:39 Speaker 02 Why do we take it seriously? And is it harmful to do so? Or can seeking guidance from the universe ever be therapeutic?
1:48 Speaker 04 If I'm just feeling really confused or stuck or I'm sort of swelling, I just really want to see what the universe wants to tell me essentially.
1:59 Speaker 02 I'm Sana Qadar. This is All in the Mind, and this week's episode is from reporter Shelby Trainor, looking into how occult practices, like astrology, set up cognitive traps that many of us fall into. But also, how practices like reading tea leaves or reading tarot might overlap with traditional therapy. Shelby, hi.
2:20 Speaker 05 Hello.
2:21 Speaker 02 I'm very intrigued by all of this subject matter, but let me start by asking you, what's your star sign?
2:27 Speaker 05 I am a Gemini, and I don't always relate to being a Gemini. I feel like Geminis get a bad rap, to be honest.
2:34 Speaker 02 I don't actually know what Gemini is supposed to be, so fill me in.
2:37 Speaker 05 They are the twins of the zodiac, and so it's often said that Geminis can be two-faced, which sounds like an insult to me.
2:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, but you know, I don't recognize you as quite as very two-faced. You're pretty straight.
2:50 Speaker 05 But maybe, look, maybe I have two sides to me because I'm one of those people who does not believe in these things, like horoscopes, and also does kind of believe in it at the same time. Like, I own crystals. Do I think that the clear quartz that's beside my bed is bringing me clarity? No. But when I bought it, I was seeking clarity.
3:13 Speaker 02 Okay.
3:14 Speaker 05 There's a little something going on there, clearly. And so I wanted to explore this contradiction of believing and not believing, and dig down into why a lot of us feel this way. But I figured, as this is an evidence-based show, we're going to start with the science and the skepticism. But for all the horoscope girlies out there, stick with me. I am a Gemini, as you pointed out, and so this story is going to be quite two-faced.
3:41 Speaker 03 People are willing to believe almost anything about themselves if it looks official and seems to fit.
3:49 Speaker 05 This is Professor Susan Kraus Whitborn, a clinical psychologist known for her work on personality and identity. Also, she's a Sagittarius, like Sana, but she doesn't take much stock in it.
4:01 Speaker 03 It's like a sock that, not quite too big, not quite too small, it just, you can get it on, it doesn't matter if it doesn't fit perfectly, you're happy with it.
4:10 Speaker 05 She made the connection between a well-known effect in psychology and horoscopes. It's called the Barnum Effect. We've mentioned it on All in the Mind before in relation to psychics. It's playfully named after 19th century showman P T Barnum.
4:25 Speaker 03 We like the name, it's easy, people really can understand it. And it's named after Barnum because of that sucker born every minute. People are willing to believe almost anything about themselves. The more general it is, almost the better, because you will make it fit you. You want to suspend disbelief, you want to believe in it.
4:46 Speaker 05 The Barnum Effect was originally called the Fallacy of Personal Validation, and it wasn't coined in response to astrologers reading people's horoscopes, but in response to shoddy personality tests. In 1948, psychologist Bertram Forre gave his students a test which promised to produce a vignette of their personality. But this was all a farce.
5:10 Speaker 03 I did the exact same thing that the original researcher had done. I gave a questionnaire, paper and pencil questionnaire. I would give it to my students, they would take it, and then we would magically produce the feedback. What I really did was throw them all out. There was never any scoring, I mean, there's like 300 kids in my class, so I'm not going to score those. Toss them out, print something back.
5:34 Speaker 05 When the students received their test results, what they got was an identical response with statements like, "You need people to like and admire you", or "You have a tendency to be critical of yourself".
5:47 Speaker 03 And so they read this generic description of themselves, and then they had to rate how much they felt it applied to them. And they'd say like, "Yeah, that's totally me, how'd you know that?".
5:56 Speaker 05 Susan would score these results, eventually revealing to the students it was all a fallacy, and look how many of you fell for it.
6:04 Speaker 03 So we would give them back the feedback and say, "Look how easily you were suckered", I didn't say suckered probably, "but drawn into this explanation that had nothing to do with you because it seemed real. You know, I mean, I felt a little bit bad, like, we fooled you, but again, it's for science.
6:22 Speaker 05 In order to sucker the students, there did need to be some sense of legitimacy to the test. It was done in a classroom. They filled out intimate information about themselves, which is kind of how it feels to fill in a form before it spits out your astrological birth chart. You've got to dig out your birth certificate or ring your mum to ask what time of day exactly you were born.
6:47 Speaker 03 The premise is you take a test. It seems legitimate. The test spits back feedback that seems to fit. And you say, oh, yeah, that's me. And the way it works is the feedback in and of itself has some internal contradictions. You're a little of this, you're a lot of that. Sometimes you feel this way, but sometimes you feel the other way. Sometimes you feel like you fit in. Sometimes you feel like nobody likes you. I mean, who wouldn't agree to that?
7:17 Speaker 05 So Sana, now we know what's happening psychologically. I want to test this out with your horoscope today and see how you feel about it.
7:25 Speaker 02 OK, so my horoscope that's going to tell me how today is going to go for me?
7:28 Speaker 05 Yeah, exactly.
7:29 Speaker 02 All right, let me open it up. OK, July 7, 2025. You may feel like someone caught in a tornado, Sagittarius. Things are whirling around you and everything seems out of control. Don't get stressed out. There's nothing you can do about it. Allow the storm to do what it will. You will only get hurt if you try to stop it. Accept things you have no control over. The storm will settle down soon. Well, that is perfectly vague and nice enough, I guess. It gives me a hopeful message. Things will settle down. I don't know.
8:02 Speaker 05 Yeah, but it's all about stress, which I feel like anybody could relate to, really.
8:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, who's not stressed?
8:08 Speaker 05 Yeah. I guess one of the issues, though, with horoscopes is they do look forward. They tell you, here's how your day is going to go. Or if you get a broader reading, here's how your month is going to go, your year, your life. And so this is where something else sets in, confirmation bias. It's the tendency to seek out and fixate on things that fit our existing beliefs. If you believe there's a storm coming... Then you're going to be on high alert. The overwhelming stressful parts of your day, the things that might end up standing out.
8:39 Speaker 02 And I will say, this horoscope says the storm will settle down soon, which is, there's no timeline there. I just have to trust it will. And of course, at some point it will. No one's stressed forever, right?
8:50 Speaker 05 Yeah, I guess. And you're going to hold on to that little glimpse of hope, aren't you?
8:54 Speaker 02 Exactly.
8:55 Speaker 03 There's no way this is valid.
8:58 Speaker 05 Because of confirmation bias, you might then look back at your day and think, whoa, that horoscope was really accurate. And so tomorrow, you read your horoscope again, this time armed with the supposed evidence from yesterday. You might take it more seriously. You might even change your behaviour based on its advice. And this doesn't just apply to your daily horoscope either. It applies to people too. For example, you've probably had this interaction before.
9:27 Speaker 03 After the fact, you say, oh, I knew that all along. Of course, you were a Leo. I mean, this totally fits with being a Leo.
9:35 Speaker 05 Of course, it is a spectrum. Some people are aware of their star sign and don't pay much attention beyond that. But for others, star signs might determine who they choose to be friends with or who they date. It's pretty common these days to have your star sign on your dating profile alongside your age and your height. There is a study from 2020 that looked into this so-called astrological compatibility between couples. Researchers looked at data on married couples in Sweden between 1968 and 2001. And they failed to find any evidence that people with compatible star signs were less likely to get divorced.
10:12 Speaker 03 Well, you know, people believing lies is really what it turns out for. I mean, nobody wants to be a sucker on purpose, but people are inadvertent suckers when they believe in something that has no truth on the face of it, or even in any way, shape or form.
10:30 Speaker 05 It is worth acknowledging, though, that while this might seem either like a bit of fun or ridiculous, depending on your views on astrology, it does have deep roots in history and culture, stretching all the way back to Mesopotamia. It arose side by side with sciences we don't dispute, like astronomy, similar to alchemy's journey alongside chemistry. It was a way of making sense of the world and remains so for many people. But Professor Kraus Whitborn takes issue when money gets involved.
11:01 Speaker 03 That's one problem, is just the whole industry that's based on this and has for hundreds of years. It's just irritating that people make money off of this fake information they provide to people. So we need to train people, don't fall for this stuff. You can if you want, if you feel like it, but I felt I really wanted to get that point out there, that there's no way these generic statements about you could have anything to do with who you are as a person.
11:31 Speaker 05 When it comes to personality, it's much more complicated than your birth chart. Ironically, though, researchers from Lund University, again in Sweden, did try to find out whether certain personality traits predicted a belief in astrology. Belief was associated with a higher narcissism score, as well as a higher agreeableness score, while people with a higher level of intelligence had a lower belief in astrology.
11:58 Speaker 03 I mean, the number of people who say, not just, "I read my horoscope," it's, "You're this way because you are," in my case, Sagittarius, or a Leo, and just, that's it, okay? We've now said, "This is you because you were born under the cusp," whatever that means, you know, in between two astrological signs.
12:20 Speaker 05 While it can be a form of introspection, Professor Kraus Whitborn says it isn't the safest or the most rewarding path you can take.
12:29 Speaker 03 If you want to learn about yourself, which I think is an admirable goal, the way to do it is to find a reputable way to get that information.
12:41 Speaker 02 You're listening to All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar and I'm joined by reporter Shelby Trainor. Shelby, you kind of believe in astrology. How do you feel about being called a narcissist with low intelligence?
12:52 Speaker 05 Not great. I did read the paper. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt and I sort of understand the reasoning. So this is narcissistic traits. This isn't full-blown narcissism, which is a slight comfort. And the researchers did say it might have something to do with a self-centered worldview. So like, my personality and the way my life goes is determined by the stars. It kind of implies the universe cares about me personally, which is very flattering. I don't actually think it does. When I say I believe, I don't believe astrology is like a testable, verifiable science. I believe just enough in like, the vibe of it to have
13:34 Speaker 05 a little fun without taking anything too seriously. And that applies to divination and the occult in general. So when I was reading that study, I was sort of like cracking my knuckles, stretching out, getting ready to make a bit of a counter-argument.
13:48 Speaker 02 Okay.
13:49 Speaker 05 What I want to put on the table is something called an N of one experiment. That's a study with just one participant.
13:56 Speaker 02 Who's the one participant?
13:58 Speaker 05 It's me.
13:58 Speaker 02 Okay.
13:59 Speaker 05 Yeah.
14:00 Speaker 02 What are you gonna do?
14:01 Speaker 05 Well, I've already done it. So Susan mentioned, if you want to learn about yourself, don't go to an astrologer or a psychic reader. Don't turn to tea leaves or cards. Go find a reputable person. See a psychologist or a psychotherapist, which is generally great advice. So I've had the same psychologist for years. She's amazing, accredited, love her, wouldn't trade her for a pack of tarot cards, at all. But I love tarot cards.
14:27 Speaker 02 Do you?
14:27 Speaker 05 Yeah, I do. I have four decks. And I've been reading tarot for the entirety of my twenties. I've found it's a great way to reflect on things and set goals. But that's my experience.
14:40 Speaker 02 And why do tarot for those things as opposed to, I don't know, journaling?
14:43 Speaker 05 Well, I do both. I'm a glutton for self-reflection. Right. I love it. But that is just my experience. I know that N of one experiments are far from ideal. So I wanted to get someone else's perspective.
14:58 Speaker 04 Yeah, so my name's Ryan Finlay and I'm a practising psychotherapist. I also practise tarot as well.
15:04 Speaker 05 Ryan's day job is traditional psychotherapy. He doesn't typically bring tarot into that space. You might think tarot readers are fortune tellers. They consult cards and tell you you're going to meet a dark handsome stranger or come into some money. But most tarot readers won't tell you what is going to happen. For the most part, they'll get you to reflect on your past, what it means for the present, and how that might apply in the future.
15:32 Speaker 04 Historically, tarot was a card game. And then over the years, over the centuries, actually, since the 1500s, it's just gained more and more traction in terms of being used to help people find clarity. I think there's a misconception out there that it's purely based on fortune telling. And that's really not how I use it. I'm very much about bringing it into the present moment, what's here right now. So I'm really much more about using it rather than a sort of a psychic prediction, more as an intuitive, let's find out what's happening right now and unpack that.
16:05 Speaker 05 In that way, Ryan says tarot can overlap with his therapeutic work.
16:10 Speaker 04 If you haven't really had experience with that version of tarot, then yeah, of course, you're going to think of it as just how cartoons and movies and everything portray it as just a more fortune teller kind of thing, which, yeah, that archetype's been sort of bashed around a lot for a long time. But I think it's evolving. I think in this generation of people who have more access to the internet and different ways of using these tools, I think there's a nice movement of, yeah, looking at it as another form of self-inquiry.
16:40 Speaker 05 We have entered a new era of tarot. There are card readers all over TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. They usually tell you if you've stumbled across their video, it means it was meant for you. It's a powerful draw. Hi there. Welcome to your tar readings.
16:56 Speaker 06 For July and cancer season. Okay, we've got lovers on each side. We've got the tower on each side.
17:04 Speaker 07 I feel like you're more connecting with this person coming up. So for today's reading, we have your one last message that you're meant to receive before you start your new life.
17:12 Speaker 05 If you're not seeking some kind of message from the great beyond, if you're not feeling particularly introspective, you just scroll past. But if you are, then in many ways, you're deciding to suspend disbelief and you're primed to make meaning from whatever you hear. That's one of the criticisms, that if you want it to mean something, it will.
17:33 Speaker 04 And it's like, well, yeah, but we're meaning-making machines. That's what we do. So why not draw upon this vast collection of beautiful symbols and instilled wisdom to make meaning out of what's going on for yourself?
17:48 Speaker 05 Okay, so Sana, I've brought one of my tarot decks into the studio, and I want you to have a little look.
17:54 Speaker 02 Okay, I'm intrigued. I've never actually looked at a tarot deck before, I don't think.
17:57 Speaker 05 Nice. So there are 78 cards. There's the Major Arcana and the Minor Arcana.
18:04 Speaker 02 What is that?
18:04 Speaker 05 So the Major Arcana, it kind of tells this overarching story from the first card, the Fool, all the way to the last card, the World. And it's kind of this journey the Fool goes on to like learning.
18:17 Speaker 02 The Fool and the World.
18:18 Speaker 05 The Fool.
18:19 Speaker 02 Oh, the Fool, rather.
18:20 Speaker 05 And the World.
18:21 Speaker 02 Got you.
18:21 Speaker 05 Yes. Then you've got the Minor Arcana. That's more like your traditional deck of playing cards that you'd be familiar with. It's split into four suits. You've got swords, cups, pentacles, and wands. And like an ordinary deck of cards, these go from ace to 10, then the page, knight, queen, and king. And all of these cards, all 78, have descriptions attached to them. They have different meanings. So I might get you to pull a card, and we'll do a little reading.
18:53 Speaker 02 Okay, from anywhere in the deck?
18:55 Speaker 05 Anywhere in the deck, anywhere you're feeling drawn to.
18:57 Speaker 02 Slightly terrified of this.
19:01 Speaker 02 Okay, I'm drawn to this card. The Wheel of Fortune.
19:05 Speaker 05 Ooh, that's a nice card. So that's part of the major arcana. Let me look through my book. I don't know them off by heart. Wheel of Fortune, destiny, fortune, success, luck, felicity.
19:17 Speaker 02 Oh, hey, I like this.
19:18 Speaker 05 Yeah, this is a great card.
19:20 Speaker 02 Am I about to get rich?
19:21 Speaker 05 Hmm, I think this is general enough that if you don't get rich, you won't blame the card. The Barnum effect might apply here. As I said, super, super general. There might also be some confirmation bias. If you win the Lotto, you're gonna say the card had predicted it.
19:37 Speaker 02 I'm sad to admit, I do, on occasion, more frequently than I should, buy a Lotto ticket. So now I'm all after pulling this card.
19:44 Speaker 05 Exactly, exactly. So is that experience altogether harmful? In the right circumstances, Ryan says pulling a card like this can be just another tool for self-reflection.
19:56 Speaker 04 From memory, there's 22 major arcana. So they're really big containers. If we look at like an archetype, it's just a big container full of symbolism and meaning. Carl Jung was an eminent therapist back in the day. And yeah, his work looking into symbolism and the collective unconscious, that really maps beautifully with how I like to do tarot and how I like to do therapy as well, which is just looking more at, I don't know, the greater energies in life, not so much just getting caught up in the personal struggle. Getting out of that more personal problem-solving space into a more transpersonal space.
20:31 Speaker 05 In psychology, transpersonal means beyond the self or beyond the bounds of the ego.
20:36 Speaker 04 Yeah, just tune in, just like, oh, what do I want to know? And I think, I guess the important kind of energetic part of that for me is opening up to vulnerability of like, oh, I don't really know what's going on. That actual step of going, oh, I actually want to seek some support here from outside of my own mind. I think that's, yeah, sort of the ritual for me is just really opening up to the cards themselves.
20:58 Speaker 02 So it sounds like they're almost kind of conversation starters.
21:01 Speaker 05 Yeah, 78 of them.
21:04 Speaker 04 So an example for that is like the Five of Cups. It's like asking me to just really tune in to grief or disappointment. And then also to let gratitude come in. So I sort of just pull them ad hoc. Now and again, I'll do a bigger reading to get a bit of a map or an overview, which is really quite special.
21:22 Speaker 05 There's often ritual involved in tarot readings. Maybe some meditation beforehand or a breathing exercise. Before pulling a card, people are usually encouraged to ask a question like, what do I need to know right now? There's plenty of evidence that ritualistic behaviour can help us ease anxiety and regulate our emotions. But of course, it's not always appropriate to turn to tarot cards. Ryan had to figure out that balance when he first started practising in his early twenties.
21:52 Speaker 04 I just had a lot of, I guess, decision anxiety at that age. So tarot really helped me tune into my own intuition. Probably used it a little bit too much. I used it every day at that point. So I was a little bit of a crutch. But yeah, it just helped me navigate my way through my early twenties, which were, you know, full of anxiety and doubt and all those sort of things.
22:11 Speaker 05 It was later that Ryan became a psychotherapist. And even later that he decided to combine the two in private sessions. While he says therapy and tarot overlap in a lot of ways, there are many situations where tarot isn't the way to go.
22:26 Speaker 04 Definitely someone with a lot of mental health diagnoses. So where they're feeling really, really chaotic in their life and they actually just need some grounding and some human connection.
22:38 Speaker 05 The cards aren't where you turn mid-breakdown or when your emotions are heightened.
22:43 Speaker 04 So I'm really big on making sure that if we are making meaning and we are connecting to new ideas and new associations, that it's actually feeling nurturing to us and grounding for us and making us feel more solid in ourselves.
22:56 Speaker 05 And so Ryan recommends some questions to ask yourself before doing a reading.
23:00 Speaker 04 How solid do you feel right now? And are you in your head already too much? Or just searching too much for some kind of clarity when really you actually just need some human connection to rest and reset. There's a thing called metacognition, which is like that ability to sort of zoom out and really watch yourself. And if you've lost that, like your frontal lobe's gone and you're too dysregulated, then I don't think tarot is indicative.
23:25 Speaker 05 But when he does use it, Ryan says tarot can bring something to sessions that he doesn't experience through traditional methods. The deck is almost like a third person in the room.
23:36 Speaker 04 It brings a different energy. So I've been working as a counselor psychotherapist for about eight years now. And so I've got that established in me and I'm really quite familiar with that terrain or that landscape of therapeutic work. But when I do tarot with people, it sort of brings in this other energy, this almost third witness.
23:56 Speaker 05 He finds it can even help drive home a message that maybe a client has been resistant to or defensive of.
24:03 Speaker 04 Where they maybe have some self sabotage or some built up defences. The cards are really good at just gently spotting that and helping people see their blind spots. And it sort of takes me out of the equation a bit more because I'm like, well, it's what's coming up.
24:19 Speaker 05 Suffice to say, there's no randomised controlled trial on the effectiveness of tarot alongside traditional therapy. And because it's a combination of cards giving you a reading and you interpreting that reading however you like, there is a risk involved. Ryan experienced this when he first got into tarot.
24:37 Speaker 04 I think in those early days, I was probably drawing upon the meanings and the cards too much. And I was just looking for answers, looking for answers, looking for confirmation, validation. Whereas now, they just help me access parts within myself that I've already cultivated and developed. But I try to just use them intuitively rather than reactively.
24:56 Speaker 05 But at the risk of over intellectualising tarot readings, I should say that tarot can be as woo woo as some people criticise it to be. Readings can feel meaningful beyond probability. Certain cards can keep coming up. A message can feel particularly hard hitting, sometimes brutally honest. And it feels inexplicable, like the universe really is trying to send you a message.
25:20 Speaker 04 I'm more and more convinced every time I just get these amazing things happen and cards coming out that I'm just like, wow, you really are trying to say something to me. Because I've got a skeptic too. You know, I've got a science background as well. So I've always got that part of me, that skeptic part. And throughout the years, tarot has just proven to me over and over again how valuable and useful and intriguing and entertaining it is as well.
25:46 Speaker 05 You can believe the universe is sending you a message, or you can believe that humans are really good at recognizing patterns and making connections. In fact, it's a basic survival skill. Last time I ate this plant, I got sick. Last time I heard this noise, it was a snake. There's a word for our tendency to perceive meaningful connections between unrelated things: apophenia. This skill humans have is why we're able to see constellations or detect images in the loose leaves at the bottom of a teacup. Apophenia can be an asset, or it can be misleading, depending on the person and the circumstance. Here's Professor Kraus Whitborn again.
26:28 Speaker 03 They just need to preserve their worldview, or astronomical view, astrological view, I should say. I don't know, I mean, I suppose it is a way of imposing order onto chaos. People are always looking for that. It's just the wrong form of order because chaos is sometimes chaos and sometimes chaos has a lot to do with your actual personality, your actual life, your actual upbringing, all of the factors that make us who we are and what make us tick.
26:55 Speaker 05 I did ask her if she thought there could be any case in which horoscopes or other forms of divination might be harmless, maybe even a little beneficial?
27:06 Speaker 03 I guess, if you're being totally tongue-in-cheek about it, but then why not actually spend your time reflecting on something real?
27:14 Speaker 05 Ouch. But I guess for me, tarot cards at least, are real. As in, I can shuffle them, I can pull them, I can see them laid out in front of me. And making meaning through them has been formative. Readings have helped me to accept things I've been resisting. They've given me confidence in decisions I have already made. And at the very least, they've been a comforting ritual, a method of inquiry and a form of self-care.
27:44 Speaker 04 I do see it as like a candle in the dark. Like, often if I'm...
27:50 Speaker 04 Just feeling really confused or stuck or I'm sort of swelling. I just really wanna just, yeah, see what the universe wants to tell me essentially. And that really brings a lot of solace because it paints a picture. And I'm quite a visual person, so it just immediately I get to see what's going on in my internal psyche out in the world, externalized. And that's something in therapy that we're really trying to help people do is externalize what's going on inside. And that does calm the nervous system. So for me, over the years, it's just brought a lot of solace and a lot of comfort. And really made me who I am, actually, because each tarot card has so much wisdom in it.
28:31 Speaker 04 And so rather than just moving through the motions of life and waiting for the, you know, the challenging emotions to disappear or whatever, I'm actually making myself stronger through those experiences using tarot. So just supportive, like just to get this big vision of what's possible for myself.
28:52 Speaker 02 That was Ryan Finlay. And earlier you heard from Susan Kraus Whitburn, professor emerita of Psychological and Brain Sciences at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. This episode was reported and produced by Shelby Trainer. You can stick around after the credits to hear Shelby do my tarot reading if you really want to. A warning, it does get a little woo woo. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr and senior producer James Bullen and sound engineer Simon Branthwaite. I'm Sana Qadar. Thank you for listening. I'll catch you next time.
29:30 Speaker 02 Okay, read my tarot.
29:31 Speaker 05 Oh my goodness.
29:32 Speaker 02 Okay, do I shuffle?
29:33 Speaker 05 Okay, do you wanna hear my, my ritual?
29:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:37 Speaker 05 I knock it.
29:38 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. Two times?
29:40 Speaker 05 Oh my god, as many times, I'm sorry, I sound insane.
29:43 Speaker 02 You're like the weirdest science reporter ever, but keep going.
29:45 Speaker 05 I knock the deck. It's to get the energy from the last person who read it out. No, no, no, you gotta knock it yourself.
29:51 Speaker 02 Oh, I have to knock it? Okay, all right.
29:53 Speaker 05 Nice.
29:54 Speaker 02 Energy out.
29:54 Speaker 05 And so I hold it to my chest, I do some breathing and I ask a question. Usually the question I ask is what do I need to know right now?
30:03 Speaker 02 Okay.
30:04 Speaker 05 And then I start shuffling and I just shuffle until I feel done.
30:09 Speaker 02 Okay, I feel done.
30:10 Speaker 05 Great. And then I turn three cards, just one, two, three.
30:16 Speaker 02 Pile?
30:16 Speaker 05 No, from the top.
30:17 Speaker 02 Top, okay.
30:20 Speaker 02 Okay.
30:22 Speaker 05 You've got your past, present and future. So past will be your left. Can you tell me what your past says?
30:27 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's a man in a red robe and green kind of scarf thing with his back towards me. He's holding a long stick thing and there's three long stick things coming out of the ground in total.
30:39 Speaker 05 Three, three of wands. There we go. A calm, stately figure with his back turned, looking from a cliff's edge at ships passing over the sea. Three staves are planted in the ground and he leans slightly on one of them. He symbolizes established strength, enterprise, effort, trade, discovery, commerce. Those are his ships bearing his merchandise, which are sailing over the sea.
31:04 Speaker 02 What's that supposed to tell me about my past?
31:06 Speaker 05 To me, it says something about your ships coming in. As in, you've like, you've put in the work.
31:12 Speaker 02 Okay.
31:13 Speaker 05 And you're watching at the horizon as those ships come in.
31:16 Speaker 02 So like the fruits of my labor.
31:18 Speaker 05 Yeah.
31:19 Speaker 02 Coming home to roost. These are mixed metaphors happening.
31:23 Speaker 05 There are many mixed metaphors. Yeah. All right. What's the next one?
31:25 Speaker 02 Okay, the next one is a guy with like a nail and anvil, like chiseling pentagrams into some disks.
31:32 Speaker 05 Eight of pentacles. Let's go.
31:35 Speaker 02 Blacksmith? No, not really.
31:36 Speaker 05 An artist in stone at work. Work, employment, commission, skill in craft and business. That's your present.
31:45 Speaker 02 Okay, that's what I'm doing on the show. I'm.
31:47 Speaker 05 There's a lot of work going on. Do you work a lot?
31:50 Speaker 02 I feel pretty burnt out at this point in my life.
31:53 Speaker 05 You work a lot. That's what I, that's the vibe I'm getting. What about your future?
31:57 Speaker 02 I wake up in the middle of the night thinking of scripts. I do work a lot. My future.
32:01 Speaker 05 Your future is their holiday in your future.
32:04 Speaker 02 Well, I've got the knight of wands.
32:05 Speaker 05 So he looks pretty free.
32:07 Speaker 02 He's coming to save me.
32:09 Speaker 05 He is shown as if upon a journey armed with a short wand and although mailed, I don't know what that means. Oh, he's got chainmail on.
32:16 Speaker 02 Yep.
32:16 Speaker 05 He's not on a warlike errand though. He's passing mounds or pyramids.
32:20 Speaker 02 Yes.
32:20 Speaker 05 Oh, oh my goodness.
32:22 Speaker 02 What?
32:23 Speaker 05 Departure, absence, flight, immigration.
32:26 Speaker 02 Oh my god, that's actually kind of uncanny.
32:29 Speaker 05 You're about to go on leave, aren't you, Sut?
32:31 Speaker 02 I'm about to go on leave. That's why you're doing the episode.
32:32 Speaker 05 Change of residence, it says.
32:34 Speaker 02 Well, I've been thinking more and more about whether I want to go back to Canada for a couple of years in a few years' time. Like, it's really heavily on my mind, Canada.
32:42 Speaker 05 See, a lot of people could relate to that reading.
32:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, who isn't burnt out also?
32:47 Speaker 05 But none of this is new to you as well.
32:50 Speaker 02 What do you mean?
32:50 Speaker 05 Well, you've been thinking about this stuff.
32:52 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
32:53 Speaker 05 But sometimes the tarot reading is just a chance to actually make the space to think about it. Like, you actually sit down.
32:59 Speaker 02 And to bring, like, these disparate ideas in my head together in one single narrative. And a narrative is very seductive, obviously.
33:06 Speaker 05 But also, it's really nice having something outside of yourself to tell you something you kind of have an inkling about.
33:12 Speaker 02 Yeah. I have worked really hard. I am tired. I do want a break.
33:19 Speaker 05 And all you needed was a pack of tarot cards.
33:24 Speaker 00 Hello, it's Claire Nichols here. And if you're a fan of All in the Mind, I reckon you'll also love The Book Show on the ABC Listen app. The Book Show is where I talk to the world's best fiction writers. And let me tell you, these authors, they think deeply about what makes us human. Love and heartbreak, loneliness and grief, ambition, desire and self-destruction. There is a whole back catalogue of interviews with people like Margaret Atwood, Marion Keyes and Ocean Vong. You can find The Book Show on the ABC Listen app.
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