Why do we crave closure?

Closure can feel like the ultimate solution to help us heal. But is it all it's cracked up to be? Today, we learn about ambiguous loss — the type of grief that comes without closure. We know navigating uncertainty is tricky, so what practical steps can we take to process this kind of loss? A heads up, this episode touches on some heavy topics around loss and trauma. Guests: Carly DoberPsychologist Dr Pauline BossProfessor emeritus, University of MinnesotaAuthor, Myth of Closure: Ambiguous Loss in a Time of Pandemic https://www.ambiguousloss.com/resources/ Author, Change and Ambiguous Loss: Learning to Live with Unresolved Grief https://www.ambiguousloss.com/resources/ Credits: Presenter/producer: Sana QadarSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineer: Roi HubermanMore information: The psychology of closure — and why some need it more than others https://theconversation.com/the-psychology-of-closure-and-why-some-need-it-more-than-others-104159Motivated closing of the mind: "seizing" and "freezing" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8637961/Beyond dogmatism: The need for closure as related to religion https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13674670210144130?journalCode=cmhr20Need for cognitive closure, tolerance for ambiguity, and perfectionism in medical school applicants https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7189591/Ambiguous loss https://www.ambiguousloss.com/To explore more great episodes from the award-winning psychology podcast All in the Mind with host Sana Qadar, download the ABC Listen app (Australia) or search 'ABC All in the Mind podcast' wherever you get your podcasts. There you'll find more episodes on mental health, trauma, attachment theory, wellness hacks, and family relationships. You'll also hear interviews with experts like Esther Perel, Billy Garvey and Ethan Kross. All in the Mind is created for ABC's Radio National by specialist journalists and reporters at the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:38Sana Qadar?

  There was a time when Carly Dober really wanted closure on something that had happened to her. She thought it would help her heal.

• 0:48Speaker 03

  Uh, how do I put this? I thought it would be a good idea to try to seek justice through the legal system for something that occurred to me when I was younger. I just thought like, this is, this is what I need. And it just, it was disastrous for my mental health.

• 1:07Sana Qadar?

  Carly doesn't want to say the exact nature of what happened. And that's not the point here anyways. The point for today's episode is the goal that she was focused on, closure. How old were you when you were going through this?

• 1:19Speaker 03

  I think I was about 21. Like, I knew that the, the justice system could be slow and not very survivor focused. But what I will say is just even little things like being told off about filling in paperwork wrong when you are like so, so full of nerves. Just little things like that, you can't stress enough. How much that just like, that upends your whole week.

• 1:45Sana Qadar?

  The morning of her court case, Carly hit the eject button.

• 1:49Speaker 03

  I wasn't sleeping about a week before I was meant to turn up. And I just thought, this is not going to end well. Like whatever, whatever happens, it's not going to end well. And just with the like rates of conviction and other things, I didn't think, I didn't think it was worth the toll on my mental health anymore.

• 2:07Sana Qadar?

  For Carly, the quest for closure had become a trap.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  I absolutely look back now and I know that part of me was hoping that this, this was the thing that was going to fix me. This was the thing that was going to cure my PTSD, cure my insomnia, get me able to like participate fully in the life that I wanted to live. And it just, it didn't.

• 2:30Sana Qadar?

  Carly has been thinking about the false promise of closure for a few years now, not just because of her own experience, but because she's a registered psychologist. And this desire for closure has come up time and time again in her therapy room.

• 2:45Speaker 03

  You will often hear people say, if I just, if I just know why, if I get this one bit of information, I'll understand why they did this to me, I can move on. And for some people, that that might be true. However, for the majority of people clinically that I've worked with, it's far more complex than that.

• 3:04Sana Qadar?

  This isn't just Carly's personal hunch, it's backed up by research. So what does the more complex path look like? And why do we crave closure in the first place?

• 3:16Speaker 04

  Closure is not the word you're looking for. You're looking for certainty.

• 3:21Sana Qadar?

  From ABC Radio National, this is All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar. Today, the myth of closure.

• 3:36Sana Qadar?

  How long have you been thinking about the concept of closure and how we might be getting it wrong? Like, when, what did you start to notice in your practice with patients and how they were talking about closure?

• 3:46Speaker 03

  In my clinical work, part of my special interest area is working with trauma. And what you find is people tell themselves a particular story about what they've gone through, especially if it was something interpersonal or a violation that if I get a particular bit of information, then I will be healed. I will be okay, I can move on. So I've probably noticed that some people have this story about their recovery journey for about the last 10 years. And as I've specialised further in trauma and in particular, childhood experiences of trauma, I've noticed it quite a lot.

• 4:27Sana Qadar?

  And I wonder if you've noticed it on social media as well? Like, I'm pretty sure I've come across a lot of closure kind of related content.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's quite annoying for me to come across this stuff, but it's often unregulated industries or clinicians or people just saying, you know, if you do this, you will heal your trauma. If you do this, you will get closure.

• 4:49Sana Qadar?

  Do you remember specifics?

• 4:50Speaker 03

  Oh my God, one, one, one person who had like a million followers on TikTok was like, you know, clean your whole house and then like that, that's closure for you after you've had a partner cheat on you.

• 5:00Sana Qadar?

  Oh gosh, that sounds like a very nice way to finish off that tricky emotion.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  Sounds amazing, right? And again, I think, I think there is.

• 5:08Sana Qadar?

  Not nice way, but like, nice to know it's such a clear cut way of finishing that off.

• 5:13Speaker 03

  It sounds amazing that there is such a clear cut way. And again, I think there is utility in, you know, clearing your space of people who have harmed you, but as if you're not going to be upset, agitated, heartbroken after an hour of cleaning, if you've been living with a partner who's cheated on you, like, come on.

• 5:29Sana Qadar?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's other stuff that needs to be done there.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 5:33Sana Qadar?

  And why do you think this idea of closure is, has such a stranglehold on us and has taken hold in popular culture?

• 5:41Speaker 03

  I think that people have a particular story if they've had a pretty good life, that, you know, good things happen to me, I will work hard, I'll get married, maybe I'll have kids, maybe I won't. Good things will come my way and then I'll die at a ripe old age. And then when something interrupts that story, our minds search for answers. Our minds are wanting closure because it will help us correct that story.

• 6:11Speaker 04

  Closure is not the word you're looking for. You're looking for certainty. We are more comfortable with certainty, knowing someone died, knowing what the stock market is doing, knowing whether somebody is with us or against us. But closure is a misnomer.

• 6:29Sana Qadar?

  This is Professor Emeritus Pauline Voss from the University of Minnesota. She's a psychotherapist and researcher who's written a number of books on the topic of loss, including a book very appropriately titled, The Myth of Closure. And she's known for developing the concept of ambiguous loss, losses in circumstances in which closure really isn't a possibility. Like if a loved one goes missing and the body is never found.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  You want to see a death certificate, you want to have remains, you want to know if they are coming back or not. And you want to know if, if they are dead or alive. You want to have the rituals that go along with it. That's all certainty. And if you think grief has closure, even Elizabeth Kubler Ross said that wasn't true in her last book.

• 7:21Sana Qadar?

  Elizabeth Kubler Ross, if you're not familiar, is the Swiss-American psychiatrist that popularised the idea that there are five stages of grief.

• 7:29Speaker 04

  She said the five stages were misunderstood. It's messy, it's not linear. You don't achieve closure when you've gotten through the fifth stage.

• 7:40Sana Qadar?

  So why shouldn't people aim for closure? Why should that not be the goal?

• 7:45Speaker 04

  I just think it's a waste of time, but it's also disillusioning. It, it makes you feel like you have failed. There is no closure if there was ever attachment.

• 7:58Sana Qadar?

  There is no closure if there was ever attachment. That explains why ambiguous loss can be especially torturous. And Pauline conceptualises ambiguous loss in two ways. One, we've sort of already mentioned, it's physical ambiguous loss, where a person is physically absent, but psychologically present. She studied this type of loss in the families of soldiers.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  The family doesn't know if they're gone for certain or coming back again.

• 8:26Sana Qadar?

  And the second type is psychological ambiguous loss, which she studied in families caring for someone with dementia.

• 8:35Speaker 04

  Where the person they care about is physically present, right in front of them, but psychologically gone or going. Both of these types of ambiguous loss are very painful and stressful. In the, in the more recent book, I also added personal ambiguous loss, which is not in a relationship, except it's in a relationship with you and your own body. For example, if you're an athlete and you lose a leg for some reason, that may be an ambiguous loss for you because you really were attached to your athleticism. And so there is such a thing as personal ambiguous loss as well.

• 9:17Sana Qadar?

  With these various types of ambiguous loss, what are the downstream effects that you have seen over your career on families, on individuals who suffer either type of ambiguous loss? Does it splinter families? Does it bring them together? Like, what happens?

• 9:31Speaker 04

  Family conflict almost always follows ambiguous loss. And I understand why, because if you don't have facts about the loss in your family or in your relationship, everybody has their own theory about what's happened. And so people argue with each other about, should we have a funeral? Should we not? Should I move on with my life? Should I not? Am I still a wife if my husband has been missing for 20 years? How can I be apart from this boyfriend if in fact, we were going together two years and now he's in the same community as I am? So it's confusing. And one of the things we must do with loss is to find meaning in it.

• 10:17Speaker 04

  And it's hard enough with a death in the family, but it's even harder with ambiguous loss to make sense of it, to find some meaning in it. So it's a challenge.

• 10:28Sana Qadar?

  This is exactly how psychologist Carly Dober has seen many of her patients tie themselves into knots, trying to find meaning in unhelpful places.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  Something like, you know, sexual or physical abuse experienced in childhood from an adult violates everything that a child sees as normal in the world. And it can damage you in ways that are still unexpected as you get older. So often people think, you know, there's something fundamentally wrong with me because this thing happened to me. Why did it happen? Why me? Why when I was that young? What did I do to deserve that? And we know that there's nothing that a child can do or anyone can do to deserve that. However, how trauma.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  Impacts the person, how it impacts their brain, their development. They can get stuck sometimes wanting to find, find, find that answer that makes sense to them.

• 11:23Sana Qadar?

  Hmm.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  And so they can be stuck sometimes thinking about, well, how do I get this answer? Who do I ask? How can I go about this? And sometimes in the work that I do with people, they'll say, you know, I'm just going to approach the person, you know, in my family or in my church, or I found the person online, or I'm going to approach them in some way. And it's not my job to tell them what to do, but it is my job to kind of explore their thinking with them and to test their reality because, again, their mind is telling them, if I do this, I will get this, my life will be better, things, everything will be changed. And I just explore with them and I say, well, if you do contact them, what makes you think that they will respond to you?

• 12:08Speaker 03

  Because if they've committed a crime, a normal reasonable person is not going to necessarily respond to that because they're going to want to not be charged or they're going to want to continue living their life.

• 12:19Sana Qadar?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  And you're also assuming that they know why they did this. They might not know why, they might not have the insight or the capability to explain why.

• 12:29Sana Qadar?

  Hmm.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  And then finally, if you do contact them and if they do respond to you and if they have the self-awareness to explain why, is it actually going to take away your pain? Is it going to make you feel any better? Because at the end of the day, even if they say, well, you were there, I wanted to, so I did it, that's still awful.

• 12:49Sana Qadar?

  Yeah.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  That's still taken away so much of your time, so much of your life, so much of your health. Is that going to actually help you in any way?

• 12:57Sana Qadar?

  Yeah. And so when you have these kinds of conversations, do you find people let go of the need for closure or do some people still go ahead and try to seek it by contacting that person? Like, how do people react?

• 13:10Speaker 03

  It's so varied. Some people might sit on it for a bit longer and they might sit on it for years while also engaging in other things that do actually help with recovery and healing. And some people might still be hell-bent, like, I'm going to do this, I have to do it, I'm compelled to do this. It's so varied.

• 13:29Sana Qadar?

  This variation in how strongly people desire closure has been observed in research as well. An influential 1996 study found that people who are more rigid in their thinking, who prefer order and predictability, they struggle the most when they can't get answers and closure. People who are more open-minded, creative, who can tolerate ambiguity, they fare far better. Other research from 2010 looked at the connection between religious belief and the need for closure, and it found that the two are positively correlated. If you're religious, you're more likely to desire closure and order and predictability. But religious belief can also help you achieve closure.

• 14:13Sana Qadar?

  You can explain many things as simply God's will.

• 14:21Sana Qadar?

  You're listening to All in the Mind from ABC Radio National. I'm Sana Qadar. Okay, we're going to get into what you can do to cope in the absence of closure. But first, I just want to mention that this need for answers, it can arise in far less traumatic circumstances than the stuff we've been talking about so far. Here is psychologist Carly Dober again.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  If you get passed over for a promotion at your job, that's really annoying and, you know, a lot of your hopes and dreams might hinge on that promotion. So that's stressful. Friendship breakdown or a breakup, you know, that can be really tricky, that can be really hard. And then we have the more kind of complex interpersonal issues, so like betrayal or infidelity, that can be really emotionally and psychologically damaging for some people, depending on the circumstances and what supports they have after.

• 15:14Sana Qadar?

  Yeah, okay. And in terms of like the examples of friendship breakups, that's really interesting to me because I feel like that's an area that we don't really know how to navigate when friendships break up. Like, there's kind of a script with romantic breakups, but friendship breakups less so. There can be a lot of ambiguity, people can just sort of drop off the radar and you don't know how to broach the conversation. What goes on with those sorts of conversations in your therapy room?

• 15:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I firstly normalize how awful a friendship breakup can be. You know, there is, there are so many, you know, films, songs, poetry about the, the ending of romantic relationships, but we're statistically more likely to have friendship breakups because we have far more friends in our lives, the majority of the time, than we have romantic partners. And they are as important and sometimes if not more important than the people who we end up with romantically, it's just not given the same kind of gravitas.

• 16:08Sana Qadar?

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  So I firstly normalize how awful it can be and how there is a bit of a taboo element to a friendship breakup because, as I say, when there is a romantic relationship, there's that kind of sexual attraction element. With a friendship breakup, it's just a personality thing.

• 16:24Sana Qadar?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 03

  It can almost feel worse.

• 16:26Sana Qadar?

  Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  So we normalize that and then we talk about how, if you can't talk to the person and you can't understand or get their understanding why that friendship has ended, how can you learn from this? How can you try to improve your current relationships? How can you nurture all of these other beautiful relationships that you have in your life? And whether or not you and your friend come together again is up to the future, but how can you, how can you move through this in a way that is helpful for you?

• 16:55Sana Qadar?

  Yeah. And with the, the betrayal part, the infidelity or a romantic relationship breakup, like, I've certainly watched friends experience this and go bonkers trying to get answers. And the partner is not a very nice person and so isn't really forthcoming with answers. It kind of just ends without closure, really. Is that a common sort of thing?

• 17:18Speaker 03

  The going bonkers part, very common. And it makes, it makes sense, right? Because again, you trust this person, you think this person loves you and will act in ways that show that love and trust. And then you find out that you've been betrayed and it can be, again, it's world shaking. And I do find that a lot of people, the majority of people that I do work with, even people in my personal life, they will be so single-minded about getting all the information, understanding the who, what, where, why.

• 17:46Sana Qadar?

  Hmm.

• 17:47Speaker 03

  And again, sometimes it can actually just make things so much worse.

• 17:51Sana Qadar?

  Is there not some value in trying to find out why, though? Like, I, I, we've talked about why people crave closure, but like, I also instinctively can understand the need for some of that information to like, put what happened to rest. Where are we going wrong with this?

• 18:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I absolutely understand. I would be going bonkers and I would want the information myself. And I think it, it also, it helps you to kind of put into practice, well, is this relationship over? Can this person be honest? Can they have a mature conversation about what happened and why? You know, I don't need to have war and peace levels of information about it, but can you actually communicate to me about what's going on for you? Are you open and willing to share this part of you that has also been so harrowing for me? And actually, when we're talking about people repartners or the, the relationship being worked on, a big part of it is sharing enough about what occurred. So there is that rebuilding of trust.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  So I, you know, I think there is merit to it, but if you do find yourself being overly, overly invested in this, you know, wanting like the minutia all the time, you're finding it very difficult to think about anything else and it's impacting your functioning and your quality of life, that could indicate that then there might be some support that you need outside of that person.

• 19:14Sana Qadar?

  Pauline Boss, the author of The Myth of Closure, who's also a psychologist and professor emeritus at the University of Minnesota, she has a few other ideas on what else you can do to try and cope in the absence of closure.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  I, I would recommend that they try both and thinking, which would be, my boyfriend or my girlfriend is still here and we are seeking other relationships. He is here and not in my life anymore. So it's both conflicting statements. You see, it takes a little bit of going beyond our usual education to hold two opposing ideas in your mind at the same time. And that's what you need to do with ambiguous loss. He's here and yet not in my life anymore. My grandmother is here, but she's also gone. And, and if you start doing that, you'll find out that your stress level goes down

• 20:11Speaker 04

  because thinking in a both and way is as close to the truth as you can get with some ambiguous losses. Neither answer is, is the truth to say, he's out of my life or he's totally in my life. Neither of those are true. So you have to find the middle ground, so to speak.

• 20:32Sana Qadar?

  And a lot of the surface level advice anyways, on social media you find about achieving closure is, you know, you can try and write a letter to the person who's no longer there. Is that a step that can be useful for people? Like, would you recommend putting your thoughts down on paper?

• 20:49Speaker 04

  Yes, say what you need to say. And, and that's, that's a very symbolic way to do it. After the tsunami in Japan, there was a telephone booth that had been knocked over halfway and people continued to go into it after the tsunami to call their loved ones who were washed away. It gave them so much comfort that the Japanese government, I understand, has now righted the phone booth, made it secure again. And it's called the wind telephone. I believe you can Google it. So if it makes you feel better to do something symbolic like that, do it by all means, because it may give you some peace.

• 21:32Speaker 04

  And that's what you want, you know, keep people in your heart and mind if they meant a lot to you. If they didn't mean a lot to you, they'll still pop up now and then, and don't get scared by that. And if they were mean to you, a negative relationship, you may need to get some help with getting over the trauma of what happened to you with that person. But they still aren't erased out of your life 100%. That's just the way human relationships are. But again, I say if there was attachment, if there wasn't a deep attachment, then you don't have to go this route.

• 22:11Sana Qadar?

  And in situations where someone has wronged you, Carly is also a fan of the letter writing method.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  I go a bit further. I say you can write whatever you want in this letter. You can write the F word, you know, 50 times over. You can write the most hateful things. You just need to get it out of your system, out of your head. Because if you don't, it's just going to ricochet around, keep you up. Get it all out, get it down, scribble, burn it, throw it, do whatever you want to it, like destroy that paper. And then go for a walk or go to a dance class or go for a run or go for a swim. But you need to move your body as well, because emotions, they are a cycle. You need to let that emotion complete its cycle and through body based things, that's amazing.

• 22:56Sana Qadar?

  It feels like the idea of closure, the way we talk about it, is something we are looking to get from the other person. But can it be closure if you decide within yourself, I am going to accept the ambiguity and I'm going to move on. I'm never going to have the answers I want, but I'm going to try other things instead. Like, is closure something you can claim for yourself?

• 23:20Speaker 03

  I think closure is absolutely something you can claim for yourself. And that can be even talking to experts in a field or reading up articles or books about why people do some things. You might never get the reason why this person did this thing to you, but understanding broad themes can sometimes be really helpful information generally. Because again, a lot of these acts can violate what you think and know to be true about the world or about yourself. And understanding that, yes, you experienced it, it is awful. And you are one of, unfortunately, one of many millions of people who have experienced this as well, sometimes billions. There is shared humanity in that.

• 24:02Sana Qadar?

  And I guess that explains why, you know, a show like ours really connects with people. Like, I hear from people all the time saying exactly that, like this episode or, you know, it helped me understand something about my life.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Which is wonderful. And again, understanding that it's not just you, because in the moment, if you've been cheated on, if you have the only one in your family or friendship groups that's had an early diagnosis of cancer or MS, if you have experienced significant neglect or abuse, you can feel like it's only you. It is very isolating. It is awful. But, you know, again, understanding that this happens to people and people can have rich and meaningful lives, that can be incredibly, incredibly powerful.

• 24:46Sana Qadar?

  Both Carly and Pauline also recommend seeking novelty and doing something creative as a way to process what you've been through.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  If you are musical, write a song, write a poem, paint, create. Yeah, try new things as well. So if you've always wanted to go, you know, try a book club, do that. If you just wanted to try Tai Chi, do that. But try new things, because novelty is also a really nice distraction.

• 25:11Speaker 04

  It's giving people tools to cope with ambiguity. Things like go fishing, go to improvisational theatre, go see abstract art in a museum, listen to jazz music. All these things that some of us who were socialized to be, to find the answer or to do binary thinking, that would balance that out. So sometimes the therapy, stress based therapy is to get yourself out and to do something different that you haven't done before, that challenges yourself. Certainly, I have a Swiss American upbringing, my Swiss parents.

• 25:53Speaker 04

  So I was told that being decisive and having precision was a good thing.

• 25:59Sana Qadar?

  Right.

• 26:01Speaker 04

  I spent my lifetime trying to make my peace with ambiguity. But I have done it through the arts. That has been a good therapy. Because artists tend to like ambiguity and they can teach us how to embrace it as well. They also say fishermen are great on tolerance for ambiguity, that they like to go even when they don't catch something. So we need to take a lighter touch on this. If you need therapy, find out if the therapist has read on ambiguous loss. A lot of them have. And if they haven't, then I would look for somebody else if that is what you want to talk about.

• 26:43Sana Qadar?

  And as for Carly's own experience in her early twenties, trying to get closure on something that had happened to her, going through the court system, stopping the court process. I wanted to know if, over the years, she ever felt like she had achieved some version of closure on that?

• 26:59Speaker 03

  No, I didn't.

• 27:00Sana Qadar?

  Okay.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  I think I was like desperately wanting an answer that made sense in my mind. And I got an answer from the person, but it just pissed me off even more. And it just, yeah, I think that set me back a little bit. However, I was able to, again, lean on like amazing people in my life away from that. I was able to do beautiful things. I was able to study and enrich my brain in many ways and, you know, see beautiful parts of the world that, again, updated my story. You know, bad things can happen to people, but good things can happen too.

• 27:37Sana Qadar?

  And so it sounds like, yeah, closure is a long term, ongoing process, not a final dot at the end of a sentence.

• 27:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I always say closure is a journey, not a destination. You know, if you, if you get it, I am so happy for you. But I think if you hinge your recovery or your life on that, you might be let down.

• 27:59Sana Qadar?

  That is Carly Dober, registered psychologist and clinic owner at Enriching Life Psychology. She's also the policy coordinator at the Australian Association of Psychologists Incorporated.

• 28:13Sana Qadar?

  You also heard from Dr. Pauline Boss, professor emeritus at the University of Minnesota and psychologist and author of many books, including The Myth of Closure.

• 28:26Sana Qadar?

  That is it for All in the Mind this week. If you want to not just listen to more All in the Mind, but watch it, you can head to Instagram or YouTube. We've been posting more clips from the show on both those platforms. On Instagram, just head to the ABC Radio National page, at ABC Radio National, or ABC Health, at ABC Health, or my own page, at Sana underscore Qadar. And over on YouTube, you can head to the ABC Science channel. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr and senior producer James Bullen. And a big thank you to you for listening. I will catch you next time.