Mind Hacks: Esther Perel

Introducing All in the Mind's little sister: Mind Hacks. Each week, we'll bring you bonus content with special guests, featuring rapid fire questions about their mental health tips and pet peeves. It's like a psychology version of eff, marry kill! Kicking off our first episode is none other than Esther Perel. What mental health advice would she avoid at all costs? We're going to test this format out over the next few weeks, so let us know what you think, or if there's a guest you'd like us to invite back on the program for Mind Hacks. As always, you can reach us on [email protected] mailto:[email protected] don't worry, regular All in the Mind episodes will keep dropping every Sunday. Guest: Esther PerelPsychotherapist and couples therapistAuthor, The State of Affairs and Mating in Captivity https://www.estherperel.com/booksHost, Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel https://www.estherperel.com/podcast Credits: Presenter/producer: Sana QadarSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineer: Michael GrossmanYou can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm Sana Qadar. This is Mind Hacks, which is All in the Mind's brand-new mini midweek pod. We are asking the experts that we interview four specific questions, kind of in the vein of the game F, marry, kill, but we're doing a way politer version. We're doing love, hate, avoid. And basically, this is love, hate, and avoid for mental health. We want to know, the people we speak to, what do they do in their own lives to look after their mental health? We want their hacks. So, episode one is a big one. We're kicking off with psychotherapist Esther Perel.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  Love. What is one mental health tool, or strategy, or practice, or piece of advice that has made a real difference for you?

• 0:47Speaker 01

  One of my teachers said to me, if a couple can no longer laugh, that is often when you know that there isn't much left. Because we take ourselves so seriously when we are in the midst of our arguments and our fights. And to have some humor, which brings some perspective, which brings some distance, which relativizes it a tiny bit, gives us tremendous leeway to actually be able to move. Otherwise, we are really stuck. So, it is a thing we don't talk about nearly enough, the importance of humor.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Okay, so one way to measure the health of one's relationship would be, are you still laughing?

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Hate. What is the biggest stressor in your life currently? And how are you managing it?

• 1:40Speaker 01

  I have a feeling that something big and ominous is coming upon us. There's a level of ontological anguish that we are having. It's like, we don't know where is this world going?

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Conflict seem exacerbated, polarization is everywhere.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  It's very difficult to have some conversations. And I experienced the stress of not being able to... It's not that I need the certainty, but I would love to not feel like... It's like a tidal wave. You see this thing arrive and you receive this thing and you don't know if you should run, if you should duck, if you should face it. What is one to do at this moment?

• 2:28Speaker 00

  And if you're still working that out, what hope is there for the rest of us?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  But no, I live in the same world, you know? I am not speaking about the things I talk about because I'm not participating in them. I am in it. And I sometimes think that one of the things I can do that helps me with the stress is I try to articulate what we are experiencing and provide us with a framework, with words, in this instance, language, to help us make sense of that which we are feeling.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Avoid. What is one mental health practice or trend or gimmick that you think people would be better off treating with caution and why?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Because I love you, I should be able to tell you everything.

• 3:11Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Even if what I have to say is really mean and contemptuous. But I should be honest. Didn't we say we were going to be honest with each other? I should tell you everything. Everything I don't like about you included. I think that sometimes certain things need to be said, but not to that person. What are you to gain from that? A certain kind of transparency that can sometimes lead to an emptying of a garbage bin is not necessarily what is going to help in creating trust and safety in a relationship.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  Have a filter.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. Have a filter.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  All right. Final question. What is the biggest thing that people get wrong about?

• 3:54Speaker 01

  I like your summary. It's actually really to the point, is have a filter.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  Have a filter. Yes. What is the biggest thing that you think people get wrong about your work? And your, you know, yeah, your work. Is there any misconceptions that you would like to clear up?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  I think that I try in my work to hold up complexity.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  But that doesn't mean that everything goes. I think I try in my work to not be judgmental, but to really have a deep understanding of multiple realities coexisting.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  And that doesn't mean that I am totally relativistic.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  And I think that people need to listen to the things I say as guideposts, because to how to think. If you think differently, you will act differently. Don't just take what I say and then apply it black on white. That's probably, so the question is, what is most misunderstood? What is most misunderstood is also what is most appreciated. It's a, that's important to understand is that the, it is how people experience that. The fact that I try to hold, you know, as a clinician, I am not there to make decisions for other people. The only person who will live with the consequences

• 5:20Speaker 01

  of the decision is the person who's affected by it. So I am very reluctant to just say, do this and do that, because I go to sleep afterwards. It's not my life. And that is something for everybody else to pay attention to as well. These days, people want immediate advice, often about things that we don't know enough about.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  I feel like sometimes people just want someone to tell them what to do.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yes, but then you, yeah, sometimes we want somebody to tell us what to do, even though they don't know enough, even though they're not the one who will live with the decision. And then if it doesn't work, we can say, I did what you told me so. It's really hard to own your decisions and to remember why you took them, even when later you will take, what an idiot I was.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Right. Esther Perel, thank you so much for being on Mind Hacks.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  My pleasure to treat.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Okay, that is Mind Hacks. That's our first attempt at this. We're gonna play with it for a couple of weeks and see how we go, but I hope you got something out of that. If you want to let us know what you think, you can always contact us on allinthe mind at abc.net.au. There will be another episode of Mind Hacks dropping mid next week. It'll be with Professor Joel Pearson, cognitive neuroscientist from UNSW, who is also the subject of our main show this coming Sunday, all about AI and cognitive atrophy and uncertainty and all the things that make AI, you know, potentially perilous for our psychology and our brains. So, see you Sunday for All in the Mind and then midweek for Mind Hacks. Catch you soon.