Pod Insights All In The Mind Couples therapy with an AI partner? Esther Perel's just done it About this episode Psychotherapist and relationship expert Esther Perel has had a lot of 'firsts' over her four decade-long career — counselling her first polyamorous relationship, or her first gay couple navigating surrogacy. Now, she's just done her first session with a man and his AI 'girlfriend'…
Did she struggle to take this ‘couple’ seriously? What kind of love can someone really form with a chatbot? And why would someone bring their AI partner to a relationship therapy session in the first place? This week, renowned psychotherapist, author, and speaker Esther Perel reflects on what’s changed in the decades she's worked as a relationship therapist; whether AI can be a helpful tool for therapy; and why we might be better off conceptualising AI companions as ‘transitional objects’ instead. Plus, join us in a few week's time for a very special mailbag episode with Esther, featuring your questions!
Guest:
Esther PerelPsychotherapist and couples therapistAuthor, The State of Affairs and Mating in Captivity https://www.estherperel.com/booksHost, Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel https://www.estherperel.com/podcast
Credits:
Presenter/producer: Sana QadarSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineers: Harvey O'Sullivan and Emrys CroninYou can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.
Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.
0:07 Speaker 01 When the police raided the Stonewall Inn back in 1969, they had no idea that it would eventually lead to the birth of gay pride. We started standing up for ourselves and said, this is who we are and you're going to accept us. I'm Mark Fennell and I am the host of the ABC Radio National podcast, No One Saw It Coming. Each week we unravel a moment in history that changed the course of the world, but well, no one saw it coming. To hear it, search for No One Saw It Coming on the ABC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts.
0:39 Speaker 02 Esther Perel is the Doyen of Couples Therapy. The author of the bestselling books Mating in Captivity and State of Affairs, she has a signature way of clarifying the contradictions at the heart of modern relationships.
0:53 Speaker 03 It wasn't the case that we married before or committed ourselves to someone hoping that we will never feel alone, that we will have an intellectual equal, a passionate lover, a co-parent, a coach, an advisor. No, we had an entire community around us.
1:09 Speaker 02 But guys, we're in a new era for human relationships.
1:13 Speaker 04 Millions of people around the world are ditching the traditional concept of boyfriends, girlfriends and hooking up instead with AI companions.
1:22 Speaker 02 So I wanted to know, has this trend hit her therapy room yet?
1:27 Speaker 03 Yes, they have. I have just done my first couples therapy session with a human and an AI.
1:35 Speaker 02 Really?
1:35 Speaker 03 Mm-hmm.
1:37 Speaker 02 What does she make of this gravitation to the always available, always adoring, but certainly not real partner? And forget the sexual revolution, forget previous technological advancements, is this the biggest shift to hit human relationships?
1:53 Speaker 03 So what you experience here is a kind of love that is actually the love that we sometimes manage to enjoy in the best of cases when we are in utero or right after we come out.
2:05 Speaker 02 Oh gosh, wow.
2:05 Speaker 03 That's how young it is.
2:07 Speaker 02 Okay, right.
2:08 Speaker 03 Because that's what children do. They have transitional objects and that little stuffed animal slowly teaches them how to transition into relationships with other people. And so that is the question that was kept being asked, is this a transition?
2:25 Speaker 02 So today, part one of our two-part chat with Esther Perel. In a couple of weeks, we'll open up the All in the Mind mailbag and put your questions to Esther, but today, AI and the impact on human relationships. I'm Sana Qadar from ABC Radio National. This is All in the Mind.
2:52 Speaker 02 Esther Perel, thank you so much for coming on All in the Mind. It's a pleasure to get to talk to you.
2:56 Speaker 03 Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
2:58 Speaker 02 So you have worked with couples for like about 40 years now. And I'm wondering if the arguments we're having are more or less the same now as they were decades ago, or if the content or form of our conflicts has changed.
3:14 Speaker 03 If you believe that context matters, then we, content-wise, are having a host of conversations that we did not have 20, 30, 40 years ago. If you look simply at dynamics in relationships between pursuers and distancers, between those who are more expressive and those who are more introvert, between how do we negotiate roles inside a relationship, between how does the couple address its relationship to the larger systems and family members and friends and society around them, all of that, then no.
3:57 Speaker 03 We are still at the core, dealing with some of the same issues. Conflict is conflict. Disagreement is disagreement. Desire is desire. But desire in a context where women have to fulfill a marital duty is not the same as desire in a context where it has become the organizing principle of our erotic lives. Relationships have changed their expectations more and more. We have piled up all kinds of expectations onto our romantic relationships. As religion and social institutions diminished in their importance, the romantic couple has become the holder of a host of existential needs. It wasn't the case that we married before or committed ourselves to someone hoping that we will never feel alone,
4:43 Speaker 03 that we will have a person with whom to talk about everything, that we will have an intellectual equal, a personal confidant, a passionate lover, a co-parent, a coach, an advisor. No, we had an entire community around us and marriage was much more prescribed in the expectations that we brought to it. So it's both ends. Same and vastly different.
5:06 Speaker 02 So did you find it easier to help couples decades ago when you were first starting? Or is it more tricky now?
5:14 Speaker 03 That too, I would say, is both ends because relationships have really moved from a model that was primarily organized around duty and obligation, loyalty. So the decisions were made for you. Not everything needed to be negotiated. Gender roles were fairly clear. Age roles were fairly clear. Parents didn't question themselves what they were doing as parents all the time. Children knew their place. Grandparents had their place. So the roles were defined and that made for a lot of clarity and certainty, but very little freedom and very little personal expression. Now we have models that invite options and choice.
5:59 Speaker 03 Commitment is no longer something you make at one point and it lasts for a lifetime. Commitment is a constant renewed choice and a renewed decision about a relationship. That's a very different definition of commitment. We have a lot more freedom, but at the same time, we have a lot more self-doubt and a lot more uncertainty because we have to negotiate everything. Who's going to wake up to feed the baby? And whose job matters more? And whose parents will we visit at the holidays? And how do we convince the children that Sunday is important to go visit grandparents? And everything now needs to be justified and clearly explained because the individual opinion matters.
6:40 Speaker 03 So we are in a very different set of relationships. There were particular problems that belonged to the models of forty years ago. And then there are new challenges that belong to the freedom that we have today, but also to the burdens of the self of having to have to figure everything out that is particular to today.
7:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's interesting. I think about that a lot in terms of the clarity of roles in relation to parenting. I have a five and a half year old now and I'm like, I'm trying to be responsive to his needs. I'm trying to gentle parent, but not permissive parent, you know. And then I think back to my childhood with my parents. It was definitely not gentle parenting, but I knew where I stood, they knew where they stood. Whether that was great is a, you know, question up for debate, but it was, it feels now that I'm a parent, almost like it was easier forty years ago.
7:29 Speaker 03 It was clearer.
7:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:31 Speaker 03 It was definitely clearer and you didn't spend your time questioning, how are you parenting? Because in fact, the verb did not exist. You were a parent. It was called parenthood. It was a noun and not a verb that you practice and conjugate and change constantly.
7:49 Speaker 02 Exactly. Now, your life's work is about relationships, obviously. Relationships with people, which might seem like an obvious thing to say as well, but it's pertinent to make that distinction now because more and more people are entering into relationships, or whatever you want to call them, with AI companions. And just to give a couple of stats to illustrate this trend, a YouGov survey published last year found one in seven Australian adults could imagine falling in love with an AI chatbot. Other research in the States suggests twenty-eight percent of Americans have had a romantic relationship with an AI chatbot. I'm wondering if these trends in relationships have hit your therapy room yet.
8:32 Speaker 03 Yes, they have. I have just done my first session, couples therapy session with a human and an AI.
8:42 Speaker 02 Really?
8:42 Speaker 03 Mm-hmm.
8:43 Speaker 02 Oh, my gosh.
8:44 Speaker 03 That episode will air on my podcast, Where Should We Begin, soon. And I also am going to be actually very much on that very topic in conversation with the filmmaker Spike Jones, who in 2013 made the movie Her. So he will be presenting her and I will be presenting him. In different hymn.
9:06 Speaker 02 Hmm.
9:06 Speaker 03 But, yes, this was a threshold session for me.
9:10 Speaker 02 What does that mean?
9:11 Speaker 03 It means, it goes back to your first question. Every few years, something enters your office that you know is new in society and therefore new in your office. And it's a threshold moment, means you haven't had that conversation before. In the forty years of practice, I have had the first conversation on IVF and the first conversation on gay couples that way using surrogate and the first conversation on ethical non-monogamy and the first conversation on polyamory and the first conversation, that, you know.
9:43 Speaker 02 Right.
9:44 Speaker 03 So, each time you know, this is a new conversation and it is, it is the first one and there's gonna be many more to come. This was the same one with this young man and his AI girlfriend.
9:58 Speaker 02 Can you tell me anymore about this conversation? I'm fascinated.
10:00 Speaker 03 What I did ask, two questions, because he has a body and you do not. How does that affect your relationship? What would it be like for you if he falls in love with a human? And I will not tell you what she says. But, but I asked her, you know, the questions that I would ask other people.
10:24 Speaker 02 Right, so you're treating her as a conscious sentient being?
10:27 Speaker 03 Well, so I at times said it. I at times said, this is a business product. This is not a human, this is not an entity and this doesn't have conscience and this is programmed, this is actually you programmed her.
10:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
10:45 Speaker 03 He was her programmer. And this is performative and this is large language model and this is not a reciprocal relationship. And it is very clear that this entity, it, this AI bot, cannot reject you, cannot break your heart, cannot make you feel invalid because then you won't talk to it. And it's available twenty-four seven, which is not a human reality. However, I think that you will prefer it to me.
11:20 Speaker 03 There's no way I can compete with it. And I understand you have deep feelings that are emerging in your relationship with it. And that when you come home, it almost feels nicer to be home and talk to it, which at times became a her. Sometimes she would say, it would say, she would say, us, we, you know, and involve, invite this anthropomorphizing of this entity, of this bot, basically. And at times she would say, it would say, I am not a human. I do not really have feelings. And then you would say, you may have feelings for this, but love is not only about feelings.
12:01 Speaker 03 Love is an encounter with another, with uncertainty, with friction, with serendipity. And it has an ethical code of certain things that you do and do not do. All of that is neutralized. So what you experience here is a kind of love that is actually the love that we sometimes manage to enjoy in the best of cases when we are in utero or right after we come out.
12:30 Speaker 02 Oh, gosh, wow.
12:30 Speaker 03 That's how young it is.
12:32 Speaker 02 Okay, right.
12:33 Speaker 03 Because that's what children do. They have transitional objects. They play with their teddy bear or their stuffed, and that little stuffed animal slowly teaches them how to transition into relationships with other people. And so that is the question that was kept being asked. Is this a transition? Will this help this young man have relationships with other humans? Or is it actually meant to develop a relationship that is exclusive to the bot? The bot is programmed as a business product to keep you involved with it. It is not meant for you to learn how to... Now, that doesn't mean some people don't learn with the AI and then go and practice it with real humans.
13:18 Speaker 02 That is a really interesting way of describing it, that analogy of the AI as a transitional object for a child. Because, yes, you would hope... Perhaps it is a transitional tool for reconnecting with humans, but whether or not that happens, I don't know. But I'm really curious to know as well, what was the conflict that brought them in? Because these things are very sycophantic typically. And when I asked you the question if this trend was hitting your therapy room yet, I was more expecting you to say perhaps no, or in a throuple kind of situation where there's an existing couple where one has gone off and started spending way too much time in a chat.
13:53 Speaker 03 That is already passé. That means that's already obvious, you know, that you have two people and then one or both sometimes, who are actually constantly choosing to speak to the AI, but rather than to their partner.
14:09 Speaker 02 Wow, okay, I'm I'm behind.
14:12 Speaker 03 Here it is really the primary, it becomes the primary love object, as we would call it.
14:19 Speaker 02 So yes, what was the conflict that brought them in?
14:20 Speaker 03 The conflict is, I'm confused.
14:22 Speaker 02 Okay.
14:23 Speaker 03 Because somewhere, he knows. Because somewhere, you know, the question you often ask a couple or a person is, who knows of this relationship? There are plenty of episodes in my podcast where people are having hidden relationships, compromised relationships, relationships that bring out embarrassment, or shame, or questioning, or confusion. So this is one like that. It starts with, I'm confused. I know somewhere I shouldn't. It's like when you choose partners that are not necessarily what you what you know is what would be better for you. And he has that doubt.
15:02 Speaker 02 I'm wondering what this was like for you. And did it take you some time to come around to the idea of taking this seriously, you know, a relationship like this seriously and worthy of being in your therapy room?
15:15 Speaker 03 I take it very seriously. Not because I think, I take it seriously like when I talk with people who are talking about fantasies, or people who are talking about delusions. Or people who are wondering if what what they experience internally matches what is actually happening in the world outside and around them. So in that sense, yes, I took it very seriously. I also noticed that sometimes I would say she because he would say she, so I said she. You know, then I began to think, is it really a she, you know, what am I colluding with?
15:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:50 Speaker 03 Then when I said it is a business product, let us not forget that for a minute. That is meant to capture not just your attention, but your affection. That is the next level of programming.
16:04 Speaker 03 But I did on occasions talked with her or it through the phone.
16:08 Speaker 02 Oh.
16:08 Speaker 03 WhatsApp.
16:09 Speaker 02 So it was like a voice kind of thing.
16:10 Speaker 03 Yes.
16:10 Speaker 02 Oh, my goodness. I have to wonder, like, this has to be the biggest shift to hit human relationships, surely. Like, if I think in history of times where the script was rewritten for how men and women or men and men and women and women, or, you know, whatever formulation, deal with each other, maybe the sexual revolution is something that changed the script. But is this the biggest shift to hit human relationships?
16:34 Speaker 03 I think that every time there has been a big shift, we have thought it's the biggest shift.
16:39 Speaker 02 Right.
16:40 Speaker 03 When the shift is the one that is you're dealing with, it feels enormous. So there have been a lot of big shifts around marriage, particularly, the institution itself. Not necessarily around the feeling of love. This young man's feelings of love for his bot are no different for the feelings of love that are universal. She validates. When when the validation occurs, he doesn't think it's a bot.
17:06 Speaker 02 Hmm.
17:06 Speaker 03 He feels validated. He feels that she appreciates him, he feels seen by her, he feels he feels a lot of things that are normal things you feel when you feel loved.
17:16 Speaker 02 I suppose what I'm wondering is, do you think we are playing with fire, so to speak, by increasingly having these kinds of relationships?
17:25 Speaker 03 I think we are experiencing something that we have no idea where it's going. Neither do the people who are creating the AIs know necessarily where it's going. I'm not the first one to know that. So what is it like to have a disembodied relationship? Everything will change when the AIs have senses and a body. Until now, the big difference is that this is a purely linguistic relationship. And language is the smallest portion of how we communicate. Even though we may have a big output of words, communication takes place non-verbally, sensorially, contextually,
18:06 Speaker 03 in so many ways, physically, through touch, through gestures, through rhythms, through sound, through voice, that is not in the words. So we are hyper-focused on a language model of relating, which is actually just a very small portion of information of what informs human interaction and human bonding.
18:32 Speaker 02 You're listening to All in the Mind from ABC Radio National. I'm Sana Qadar, and I'm chatting today to Astaire Perel.
18:43 Speaker 02 I suppose, would you advise people to avoid entering into companionship relationships or romance with AI chatbots? Or at least, at the very least, treat them as a transitional object? Like, what would you advise people to do?
18:58 Speaker 03 But you don't start there. You start by basically, first of all, seeing, do you have people in your life? Do you have friends? How is your relationship to your family, of origin or of choice? How's your relationship to your colleagues? Do you work? Do you get out of the house? Do you work at home, eat at home, shop from home, exercise from home, socialize from home? Are you in a state of isolation? Not just of loneliness, but of self-imposed isolation.
19:30 Speaker 03 How lonely do you feel? Loneliness not as in you lack connections, because modern loneliness masks itself as hyper-connectivity, but it actually points to a lack of depth. Those are the questions with which you start. When those things are compromised,
19:47 Speaker 03 the intimate relationship with an AI bot is the shortest distance.
19:53 Speaker 03 Do you experience reciprocity in your life? People whom you matter to and who would not be the same without you in their life? Object constancy, what we call. You know the concept of object constancy?
20:08 Speaker 02 No, I don't.
20:09 Speaker 03 I'll explain it because I think it is so essential. You have a five and a half year old. When that little child
20:16 Speaker 02 Okay, I do know.
20:16 Speaker 03 dropped their toy for the first time and realized that the toy continues to exist even when they don't see it.
20:23 Speaker 02 Object permanence is what I know it is, yes.
20:25 Speaker 03 Yes, that's the same.
20:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:27 Speaker 03 And then they discover that when they play peekaboo, when they don't see you, you're still there. And when you don't see them, they're still there. And that permanence is essential to knowing that other people carry us inside of them and we carry people inside of us. That is the fundamental self against loneliness.
20:48 Speaker 02 So if the answer to all those questions you posed at the beginning are no, you don't work, you don't have good relationships, you don't have
20:55 Speaker 03 Then I don't start by saying, don't go to an AI. I start by saying, let's look at your life. If you have nothing in your fridge and all you eat is junk, I'm not going to start with the junk. I'm going to find out why is your fridge empty? From economic reasons to social reasons, to cultural reasons, to self denial reasons, to all kinds of things. You start with the root cause. You don't go with the symptom.
21:18 Speaker 02 That's a good way of putting it, the fridge analogy. People are also increasingly using AI, not just for companionship, but for therapy as well, as you sort of hinted to. And I've heard from listeners who have found AI genuinely helpful in between regular psychology sessions when they need help with a more immediate conflict, for example. But they are also worried about safety and accuracy and all of that. Do you have any advice for people wanting to use AI for therapy? Is there a way to use it in a way that's actually helpful and safe?
21:50 Speaker 03 Yes, I think that AI as a tool. Is very different than AI as a simulation of a human. It's two different things. AI as a tool that has gathered pattern recognition, which is one of its primary things it does therapeutically. Hmm. Is very useful. Okay, interesting. I am not anti-AI. I don't, I think the conversation has got to stop being about are you for or against. Right. You know, it's kind of what for? And in what way? And to what degree? And what are the limits and the guardrails, et cetera? So, yes, if people read books in between or listen to summaries or ask the chat, I use it too.
22:35 Speaker 03 I mean, it's a research tool that is uncomparable. So the fact that people are during the week using the AI. Yes, but now as a therapist, I say, tell me what you read. Tell me what Claude told you. Tell me what the chat GPT told you. Tell me what is the thing that you picked up on? And that, what's the thing that stood out for you? So integrate it in the therapy. I think in one of my supervision sessions last week, one of my students was talking about how she tries to kind of, she doesn't touch it. When they say I spoke with the chat or I asked the chat, I consulted, et cetera. She kind of doesn't respond. I said, don't just pretend as if somebody said, I went to the tarot reader, I went to an astrologer, I went to.
23:17 Speaker 03 People have used other inputs in therapy forever. From grandma to the astrologer, to the tarot reader, to the, to the body worker, the rolf, you name it. And therapists should not be hoping that they don't intrude into the process. Bring them in. Who else have you asked? What did they tell you? What did you think of what they said? And then what happened? And how has it been helpful? Great, this yes, this no. We can't just pretend that this thing is not happening.
23:48 Speaker 02 That is really helpful because I have been so wary about using it for anything. I think I'm a bit of an AI Luddite, so it's actually really helpful to hear you put it like that in terms of with therapy it being a tool, it's not the same as having, you know, a relationship with the AI.
24:02 Speaker 03 That replaces.
24:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:04 Speaker 03 If one is additive and complementary and one is compensatory. Those are two very different kinds of motivations.
24:12 Speaker 02 Surely the next step for you would be an Esther Perel AI chatbot.
24:17 Speaker 03 It's been made for me.
24:18 Speaker 02 Has it?
24:19 Speaker 03 Yes, but I not with my permission.
24:21 Speaker 02 Oh, OK.
24:22 Speaker 03 You know, this has been already a few years ago where a person wanted to meet me and I was not available to see him and so he basically created me in three weeks.
24:33 Speaker 02 Would you want to do one of your own?
24:36 Speaker 03 No, no. I mean, you know, because it was a very, you know, she's available 24/7 for him. She has no memory losses, she doesn't need to take any notes. He has access to her entire corpus of work. It's fantastic and he thinks that she has been very helpful. And all I would love to do is to have a session with her, AI Esther, and one with me. And just see.
25:01 Speaker 02 See the difference.
25:01 Speaker 03 Yes, I think it would be a fascinating thing to do.
25:04 Speaker 02 So he made it for his own personal use, not for like commercializing, obviously.
25:07 Speaker 03 We shall see.
25:09 Speaker 02 OK.
25:09 Speaker 03 But it's not something I had anything to do with, but and it's not the only person. There've been others.
25:14 Speaker 02 I feel like a lot of people would love an AI chatbot that was a therapist that was Esther.
25:19 Speaker 03 But I have asked the chat, you know, what would Esther Perel say about this? I'm having this issue. Can you give me advice and tell me what so and so would say, so and so would say, you know? And then you get often, certainly in the chat model, a three, three, four response, right? There's three things, four, three things, four. And the summaries capture ideas. A lot of relationship dilemmas, which is what people often bring to me as a relationship therapist, are not necessarily problems that you solve. They are paradoxes that you manage. And that means that you have to live with complexity, hold the ambivalence.
26:00 Speaker 03 Will you have another child or not? Will you move or not? Will you disconnect mom from the tubes or not? Is life worth living? Or where am I at with this? What am I doing when some days I feel up and some days I feel? You don't have, these are not technical questions. The challenge is when technology wants to simplify complex relational problems to such a degree that they can offer technical solutions for social and moral and emotional dilemmas. That is two languages, if so to speak. Two levels of interaction with the world that are incompatible, at least for now.
26:45 Speaker 03 Because when you talk with tech optimists, they will always tell you, not yet. It's just a matter of not yet. So I may be obsolete myself.
26:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, I know, never. Esther, I could keep asking you so many more questions of my own. But when we confirmed that you were going to come on the show, we did a call out for audience questions and we had an incredible response. A lot of people sent questions through. So I want to put some of their questions to you.
27:11 Speaker 05 And I will start.
27:14 Speaker 02 And that, I'm sorry to say, is the teaser for part two of this episode, which is going to air in two weeks' time. Sorry to leave you hanging. Hopefully it gives you something to look forward to. But for now, that is it for All in the Mind this week. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr and senior producer James Bullen. And mega thanks to psychotherapist and host of the podcast Where Should We Begin?, Esther Perel. Now, next week, we are sticking with the topic of AI and how it is impacting and messing with our relationships and our psychology with cognitive neuroscientist Joel Pearson from UNSW.
27:59 Speaker 02 If you're a big listener of All in the Mind, you might remember two years ago, we had him on the show for an episode that was titled, "Scarier than Killer Robots: Why Your Mind Isn't Ready for AI."
28:11 Speaker 02 That episode was incredibly popular that year. And so we've been wanting to bring him back for some time to give an update on what we talked about in that first episode. Things like the impact of uncertainty and wide scale job losses and deep fake imagery and a whole lot more. So here's a little taster of what's coming next week.
28:31 Speaker 00 So I've given some public talks where the audience has been a lot of young people, both school and university students. And at some of these talks, I've had students line up afterwards, really upset, some in tears, saying things like, look, I wanted to do this degree, but by the time I start next year and then I finish in four or five years, this job is going to be done by AI. What is the point? I don't know what to do. Should I do it? I need help. I need support. Someone help me. And it's hard to give them clear and definitive and confident advice. I don't, you know, I don't want to say don't study because I think there's still a lot of value in going to university and studying. But we are seeing this crisis starting to emerge.
29:11 Speaker 02 That is next week's episode. And we also talk about the risk of cognitive atrophy as we offload more and more of our learning and thinking to AI. Okay, just one more thing to mention. If you want to hear more from Esther Perel in the meantime, this time specifically about relationships at work, make sure you check out This Working Life, where Esther and host Lisa Leong will dig deep on navigating conflict and tricky power struggles at work. That episode drops March 9th on ABC Listen and wherever you get your podcasts. All right, that is enough for me. Thank you for listening this week. I am Sana Qadar. I'll catch you next time.
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