The Hustler's Guide to Getting Paid

with @bhorowitz @shakasenghor ram @earnin & vaughn ferguson Hustlin’ Tech is a new show (part of the a16z Podcast) that introduces the technology platforms — and mindsets — for everybody and anybody who has the desire, the talent, and the hustle to ...

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Ben Horowitz?

  Welcome. This is the Hustler's Guide to Tech, where you don't need a degree from Harvard, or Stanford, or a STEM education, or none of that. All you need is drive ambition and the will to get it done. In other words, you need to be a hustler.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  No doubt.

• 0:33Ben Horowitz?

  And we're here today with my co-host, Shaka.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  What's up, bro?

• 0:36Ben Horowitz?

  What's happening, Shaka?

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Happy to be here, man. Excited.

• 0:39Ben Horowitz?

  Shaka came straight out the penitentiary, sold books off the street.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, out the trunk of the car.

• 0:44Ben Horowitz?

  The trunk of the car, by himself, that he published himself, and now is a New York Times bestselling author. And we're here talking to Ram, the CEO of Earnin, where you can get paid as soon as you work. And then we're here with Von, the hustler, who's taking advantage of that and getting his. So let's get into it.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Let's get into it, man. So dope name. I love the name Earnin. The first thing that came to my mind was Heavy D, Money Earning Mount Vernon.

• 1:18Ben Horowitz?

  Money earning.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, Money Earning, right? But that's like a brilliant concept.

• 1:22Ben Horowitz?

  Well, why don't you tell us what Earnin is and what it does?

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this problem that people now call the $400 problem, which is 40% of the country can't find $400. And to me, it's crazy that that happens, because it's locked up in this pay cycle, where we pay people every two weeks. And so we're basically holding back their pay, and then they don't have enough money, so they go to really bad options. And I came across this when one of my employees at my previous company, she was going into getting overdraft fees. And I asked her why she's getting overdraft fees, because I thought I was paying everyone well. The problem she had was that she needed money the next day, couldn't wait till Friday. And so she'd already worked for a few days and we owed her money for the work she'd already done, but I couldn't get the payroll system to pay her. So I did a manual workout and got her the money and did this for a few years. And when I left the company, the people who I was doing this for wanted to know if I could still do it for them. And when I was able to do this, their life was so much simpler.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  They're paying all their bills on time, no more late fees on bills, no more overdraft fees, no more payday loans.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  When I think about it, it seemed like there's just like a lot of savings there, like people who don't get those fees and don't have to worry about trying to figure out how to borrow money from other people with ridiculous interest rates, especially like if you're from the hood, where you got all these get money now, but it has like these crazy interest rates. And like in terms of money, like how much is a savings are we looking at like annually?

• 2:38Speaker 02

  So with just overdraft fees alone, as a country, we spend more on overdraft than we do on fresh vegetables.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Crazy, yo.

• 2:47Ben Horowitz?

  Paying money for your money.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Paying money for your money.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  That's the financial system.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  So it's almost like you're working to make money to pay yourself to work. Like it's crazy, it's like a ridiculous cycle. It's nice. So Von, what's good, bro?

• 2:59Speaker 03

  What's going on?

• 3:00Speaker 01

  So what does the application look like on the ground? Like, how do you get out there and make it happen and shake things up and, you know, really take it to that next level?

• 3:08Speaker 03

  Well, for me, it happened like this. I was scrolling through social media and then this app popped up and it just said, get your money today. And I mean, like maybe before I finished reading the sentence, clicked and I had it, it's downloaded. And I checked it out and then by the time all the information processed, and it took about maybe like three to five business days and it started working on my phone. And I realized what it was, I was like, okay, so it's tracking, it's tracking when I work. It's watching how much, how much I make as I make it. And then it's allowing me the day of working to get that money the same day. And it's, it's a different feeling, you know? I told my friend about it.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  I was like, yo, you gotta try this out. And he was like, what is it? I was like, get your money before Friday. And he was like, and then he said, he said, keep it away from me. And I was like, what you mean? I was like, I've been using it. It's, it's, it's, it's cool. And then his, his words were, I, I always remember this. He said, he said, man, you're not trepidatious at all, are you? And I was like, I was like, oh, is it me? Or is it him? You know? And him is the way a lot of people feel about this type of thing. Everybody's looking for the, the, the catch. What's the thing? What's the thing? What is it?

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Cause Ron, like when you, you took a risk, you just like, I'm gonna hit this and I'm gonna keep it moving. And one of the things that Ben and I talk about a lot is like, how do we remove the mental barriers that, that allows people to empower themselves and access technology in a way that really makes them, you know, be able to connect with other people, but also earn, you know, through their own ability to get out and make things happen. So to just see the community that's developing around it, that's something we talk about a lot about. How do you share culture, you know?

• 4:53Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah. That thing that you did, it's, it might seem like a small thing, but to have the ability to go get something and then start to change your position in life where you can go do the next thing. Like that's a, you know, and then anybody who knows you benefits from that.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:11Ben Horowitz?

  Cause you know, you, you're the breakthrough. Ron, what do you charge?

• 5:15Speaker 02

  So we don't charge anything. There's no fees to use the service. The other area that we're in right now is where people should be able to get healthcare, even if they don't have much money. And I don't think we should hold these back just because someone doesn't have enough money to pay for it. Um, and so what we said is people can pay us whatever they think is fair. And so when people are not able to pay them, they don't pay. When they are able to pay, they can pay something. And sometimes people come back and they actually help many people out. So you have a really strong paid forward culture where people actually come into the app to help each other out.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  So in addition to allowing people to access their own capital, it's also building a sense of community, which most people don't think about organically when it comes to tech. It's like, how do you build community that actually opens it up?

• 5:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, as far as the community aspect of it, when you actually start using the app, you know, you have, you have the ability to, to tip whatever amount you decide to. And it caps the amount you can tip. So for example, today was Wednesday and I cashed out a hundred bucks for work from work that day. The app comes up and then it gives you the option and said, would you like to tip yes or no? And then another sort of like an icon or a little animation comes up. And it shows you because of your tip, that you were able to pay it forward for somebody else.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  So it's incentivized in a, in a more organic way, like kind of like, okay, you see where how you helping people.

• 6:34Speaker 03

  You know that thing where you go through a toll? And maybe you have a little bit extra that day and so you pay for the two people behind you? Or you're getting some donations in the morning and you're like, all right, five bucks for the guy behind me, it's sort of like that. Cause when you tip as well, it tells you based on the amount you tip, how many people you're assisting. So if you, if you roll it to three dollars, the chain will go up to one. If you roll it to five, maybe it could, maybe it goes up to two people. If you hit it like in a nine dollar tip, it goes up to three. It's up to you, you can do whatever you want. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, I'm good right now, boom. Nine dollar tip and you have three other people.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  I think about like how most people want to show up in the world. I think, you know, we're organically helpful people. And when you can actually see that you really helped somebody, that's pretty cool.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, so one of the other pieces is if someone helps you out, you can say thank you to them. And we've had over 10 million thank you messages between users. One of the other things that's like surprising to me is like, when I speak with people like more from the traditional financial services, they don't get why people will help other people out.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Cause they not trying to help.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  You gotta wanna help people to understand what that looks like.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  They're, they're on the other end.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Right on the other end of this thing. So people are helpful and, and paying it forward. But why do you think that people want to help each other? Like, what is it about the space of freedom that, that makes people want to really help each other?

• 7:55Speaker 02

  So I think people actually help each other out in the real world. Like offline, that's what you do is if you're short of money, you ask your friends or your cousin for money. Like it's not the way like you're used to banks working. Like banks don't ask customers to help each other out, but in the real world, people do help each other out.

• 8:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  And we're basically bringing that into this technology platform and giving it a lot of scale.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Are people pretty consistent with each transaction of tipping? Or like, what does that look like? Is it like every third transaction or?

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Everyone chooses what works for them.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  Um, so it's different for different people. The same person could be different at different times. It'll be like, how, how, how do you have you thought through it?

• 8:26Speaker 03

  Well, the way I do it is like this. Depending on how much I'm going to cash out, I know what my ultimate goal is. So maybe I know this week I'll cash out twice. So that means I know that on Tuesday I may tip five dollars. And on Wednesday I might not tip anything because I know that for the week I can't. It's five dollars. You don't have to tip every time. It just depends on what you know you're going to do and what you know that you can afford, honestly. As with anything, you have to budget your money.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 8:55Speaker 03

  Okay. Because just like as if you, uh, in, in the old system, you would have to have saved money from an, an old paycheck to pay for an upcoming bill. In this instance, um, you're using funds that have, that, uh, you would normally expect on Friday. You're getting it earlier. So you just budget yourself and know that you, you, you used that money already. Okay. So it's just budgeting. Um, but it's, it's also allowing you that access to the money in advance so that you can avoid potential overdraft fees or something comes up or things like that. So most important is you have to budget your money.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Okay. So, so I just had a question just popped up. It's like, so you're married?

• 9:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And, you know, there's shared household responsibilities financially.

• 9:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  So how does that work within that context? It's like, you know, you hit your wife up like, yo, I gotta take this, I'll take care of that.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  Completely did it on my own at first.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:47Speaker 03

  Because I knew what the reaction was gonna be.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I just did it. Let me see if this works. And I, I, I didn't, I didn't even think it was gonna cause any problems, but I knew what saying, hey, there's this thing, can I check it out? I knew what, I knew what was gonna happen. It, it, cause that's, that's what people say, cause they can't believe it.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  So I just went for it on my own. And then after that, um, it's, it's done nothing, it's done nothing but assist me. So it's worked out. It's, you know, it's the, the pay cycles just, there's, there's gaps in them. And I don't think people should be ashamed of running out of your check before Friday gets there. I mean, it's a normal occurrence. It, it happens often. It's, it, there's a phrase, I gotta wait till Friday.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  People say that.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  There's a reason you gotta wait till Friday is because you won't have the money to afford it today. You know, and sometimes you miss out on things and sometimes you incur fees. You end up paying more money. Because you didn't, you had to wait on the money you, you already earned that you could have now. So. It's done, it's done nothing but, but assist me, assist us in our household.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  And, and just in terms of like access, is it kind of like a limit or?

• 11:01Speaker 02

  You can get it seven days a week, 24 hours a day. As soon as you hit cash out, the money's in your account the same second. So you could be like at McDonald's and you need six bucks. You just take out six bucks and you put your debit card in.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's instant.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Have you run into any, you know, consumers who are just like, you know what, I'm too irresponsible. Um, I need to just unplug because I'm just going to take out all the money and go to the casino or. Do whatever reckless. Um, has that user experience have occurred or?

• 11:32Speaker 02

  I mean, so the, the user experiences that we hear are mostly on people are using the app to pay bills. To buy groceries, to buy food, to buy gas. There's that struggle to make it to Friday. And it's not because you wanted to go gamble. It's because you needed to get to work or you needed to buy food. And that's what people are, are using this for.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  And can they pay for these things like within the app itself? Or do they just go to their debit card and they swipe?

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it goes into the bank account and they use a debit card to buy.

• 11:58Ben Horowitz?

  So Ram, you were talking earlier about healthcare. What is your vision for the community?

• 12:04Speaker 02

  So with healthcare, the, the core problem is that when you get medical bills, they're always, almost always a surprise. They're quite large and usually when you get them, your income goes down as well. I mean, like half the bankrupt, personal bankruptcies in the country are because of medical bills.

• 12:19Ben Horowitz?

  Half?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Yes. And even if you have insurance, like your deductible is 5,000 or 10,000 bucks. Most people don't have that sitting in their bank account. And so even with insurance, healthcare is not affordable. And so what we've done is it's really simple from the user's point of view. They basically take pictures of their bills through the app and give it to us. And then usually within two days, we're able to get them a lower amount on their bill. A payment plan. And then if there is any financial aid, we'll try to match them up with financial aid as well. And so with over 90% of the bills that we've got, we believe we'll get people some kind of savings. We're looking for places where there's some kind of unfairness or inequality, and seeing if we can bring a technology solution to make that place be more balanced. So this is becoming a platform of community-supported products.

• 13:03Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's so powerful. I was thinking earlier, you know, because I'm always thinking about it, you know, like, what do you teach young people about, like, money that makes them go one way or the other? And like, my favorite quote on this is, "Compound interest is the eighth winner of the world. He who understands it earns it, and he who doesn't pays it." And that's like an Albert Einstein quote. But, you know, that's the thing about money that I think so many people don't understand is that either you have money, and your money wakes up every day, goes to work, and makes you more money, to the point where, like, when you get enough money, you don't even have to work. Your money just goes to work on your behalf. And then if you're borrowing money, if you're getting credit,

• 13:46Ben Horowitz?

  if you don't have your check, and you have to go borrow that or put it on the credit card or whatever, then you're paying for that. You're paying for that other person to not have to go to work. And you don't even realize you're doing that. And you just fall into this pattern of these financial products that puts you on the bad end of that deal. And so the thing that, you know, that to me is really exciting is you're saying, "No, I'm getting my money that I already made, and now I've got money. And now you have the choice. You can spend it, you can invest it, you can do what you need. But that's your money."

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I think that's really dope, because you hit on a pivotal point, like the culture. And that's something we talk about a lot when it just comes to like, how do we shift culture? And I kind of want to pivot a little bit around just the idea of like, what the show is about. Like, how do you really, you know, break through some of these barriers that's in people's way, and especially in the tech space, right? Tech can be very intimidating. You know, I walked out of prison nine years ago, and I was gone for two decades. I didn't know any of this tech stuff, right? But there was a curiosity there. I was like, I really want to learn how the modern world works. And just from a hustler's standpoint, I always thought that, you know, guys that come from the street or come from the communities where street hustling is the norm.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Don't always recognize that those are transferable skills. And as we're trying to solve problems and trying to empower people, how do we, you know, message that in a way where people feel, you know, to your point, where it's not like this skepticism when you introduce some tech, but where it's this open curiosity and, and, and, you know, allow people to create space where they can come in and like get out and go make it happen. Where do you guys see that connection in, in terms of like, how do we introduce the culture of technology and hustle technology to the masses?

• 15:35Speaker 03

  If I could come up with an idea, it would just be more visibility, more people knowing that there's real people using it and that there isn't such a reason to be skeptical. I mean, I guess just generally, people are scared of this type of thing because, I don't know, maybe they've heard horror stories before, but, I mean, that's the only thing I could think of, just knowing that more people are really using these things that are out there to their advantage and not their detriment. Um, you know, as these are assistance devices. Um, and not everything that you see on your phone is, is there to scam you or take your money. These are real tools that you have now to, to your advantage.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's also like some amount of like skepticism or anything that's new, whether it's like with Lyft and getting into a car with a stranger or Airbnb staying in someone else's house. And long ago with Amazon, like putting your card number into the internet. But like technology can make things so different that you're not sure if it's all right because it's so different. Like people look at our product and they say, well, this is too good to be true. Like they're used to overdraft fees and I'm like, that's too bad to be part of your future. Like this is the way it should have been always. It's like you should have always had access to your pay.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  What's always funny to me is that it's like people on social media talking shit about tech. I'm like, but you're actually using tech to talk shit, right? And it's like, if you can make that connection for people to see like, we're already using tech, right? No matter, you're not gonna, that's just the reality, right? So why not use it in a way that actually empowers you? And helps you solve problems and make life a lot more simple. And so that's kind of like always the thing I'm thinking about is how do we continue to push the envelope and shift culture and get people to see like these things aren't as intimidating as they make them out to be? And that you can dive in and, and figure out a way to, you know, either create the next big thing that make problem solving easier? Or just, you know, utilize it to make your life a little bit more simple.

• 17:23Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, kind of picking up on what you said, Chaka. Like, one of the things that is interesting and really the opportunity, I think, is you have this old system. And we all know all the things that are wrong and all the things that are unfair about the old system, the old financial system, the old healthcare system, the old, like, work hours and structure. And one thing is you fight the system. But the other thing is there's a new system. And how do we get the guys on the come up onto the new system and just not have to protest the old system? Because like, we've been protesting that system for a long time and like, it doesn't change at all.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  When I was getting out, I was just like, okay, I gotta just figure this thing out, right? So I know what I control. I can only deal with the things that I can control, right? And that means I gotta get my ass out there and hustle and push the envelope. So I literally would sell books to anybody, I didn't care who you was. And I would do it. I mean, Jehovah Witnesses come knock at the door, they're gonna sell a watchtower, give away a watchtower, I'm gonna sell this book, let's swap out. I mean, for me, it was really just that idea that, you know, I mean, I think enterprise has always been, you know, a part of the culture, you know? Like, there's that hustler ethic there, that ethos, right? That culture of figuring it out, because that's what that hip-hop culture emerged out of making something out of nothing. And that's what I look at, that's how I look at technology, right?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  I always ask kids this, I say, okay, you know, if you're on social media, I'm like, did it cost you to get on? And they're like, no. I'm like, okay, are they selling you anything personally? And they're like, no. I'm like, so how are they making money? And they're like, I don't know. I'm like, it's an idea. And the idea is to really take things and figure out how to create value in them. And if you create the thing, then you create the value and you can figure out how to get that out. And I think that culturally, what we really would love is just for people to awaken to the idea that you can get out and make things happen if you just have that go-getter mentality and really dig into it.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. I guess what got me over the hurdle of it was it's in the Play Store. And what I think what my friend meant when he said, boy, you're not trepidatious at all, was he was sort of stating this, which is... I was telling him, you can get your money now. You don't have to wait till Friday. And people don't think that should happen. That's, you can't do that. You can't get your money before Friday.

• 19:47Ben Horowitz?

  Even though you worked today.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  That's not allowed. Because you, Vaughn, are not capable of handling your money before Friday. Your employer can hold it for you because they know what's best. You can't take that now because you're gonna, you're gonna blow it. So you can't keep your money now. You gotta wait till Friday because they know better.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  So where is he at now? Does he still think of things the same way?

• 20:10Speaker 03

  He ain't come around yet.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  So you should ask, here's a question you should pose to him. You should ask him, if he went to the casino and he won at the slots, when would he want them to pay him?

• 20:20Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  And just see how he responds.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Because that's the reality, right? If you go to casino and you like win, you want that cash right there. Like you don't want to wait because you just, you earned that, right?

• 20:29Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  And so why would it be any different if you're working and you're actually put the hours in to add value to another company while when you add that value to yourself? So I think you can turn them around.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  You also look at what the businesses do. You go into a shop, you pay them at once. You don't say, I'll pay you in two weeks because you may be irresponsible if I give you the money now. Like the businesses take their money as soon as they give you something.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Immediately.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. But as an individual, you're not supposed to have it. And it's not like all your bills show up on payday.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  I mean, your bills show up at different times. You should have your money available when your bills show up.

• 21:01Speaker 03

  You're expected to hold over your money. You're not expected to have your money early and then pay for what comes up. You're expected to hold it from the week before. So it's sort of backwards.

• 21:13Ben Horowitz?

  And even like, I mean, why should the bank or why should like the company have your money and be earning on it when you should, could be earning on it? Why are they money earning on your money that you work for that they owe you? Like that doesn't make any sense.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Until about two centuries ago, this whole concept of pay cycles was not there. Employees were paid every day. And it was during the industrial revolution that we started paying people in batch like this. As an employee, you'd rather get your money before you work. The company would rather pay you much after you work. And then it's kind of interesting that now we have the situation where we've all accepted that companies can pay you after you work. Just shows you how the balance of power has shifted so much away from the individual. Like now we have like, now there's an opportunity for technology to actually make that be more level and balanced.

• 21:58Ben Horowitz?

  It really gets down to like, who's running your life? One of the reasons we wanted this on the podcast is this is the one where you like, okay, let me take control of my destiny. And then, you know, as we go forward, what are the opportunities that I have now I'm running my money?

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Like really it's about taking control of destiny.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Very common use cases to buy gas and so like lots of people were not able to get to work the day before payday. And sometimes that means they would lose their job if they missed too many days of work. Now they use the app, they take money, buy gas, they have better attendance, better attendance means higher paychecks actually. So we see paychecks go up.

• 22:33Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  People get to like see the doctor when they have a toothache instead of like waiting for payday and putting up with a toothache for four days. People can celebrate their children's birthdays on the birthday instead of pushing back celebrations to payday.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  I was just thinking about from a generational standpoint, uh, Ron, in terms of like, the people who are most likely to be impacted are people that's, you know, maybe 40, 50s, 60s getting into that space of close to retirement or whatever the case may be. And how have they been able to adapt to technology? Cause sometime older generation continue to be a little resistant, but uh, how, what are you guys doing to kind of penetrate that culture and make it more accessible?

• 23:13Speaker 02

  So ours, a lot of it spreads from like people talking about it to their friends. And it feels like the adoption is actually much more in the people who are more like 18 to 35 or 40. They're probably the ones who are more comfortable using their phone. And so I think we actually, if you were to look at the people who use the app, it does skew a little bit more younger. Maybe the people who are use the system just like the overdraft fees and all the other fees. Or like afraid to try something new.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Yesterday was the first time I ordered and took an Uber. I've been in Ubers, but I've never had the app on my phone. My wife did it. Yesterday was the first time I did it.

• 23:52Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:52Speaker 03

  There was a little something in my stomach. Even though I've been in Ubers and done it like, but she's always handling it, you know? We go to New York, she's like, I'm like, you got Uber and she do it. But I was like, okay, so I got, I gotta do this, I gotta be a big boy, I gotta do it. And I did it, I put it on and I was like, am I gonna know how to do this? And then I was like, everybody's doing this, get with it, you know? And I just did it and I think people just gotta jump in. I mean, or else you're gonna be left out, cuz like saying that sounds crazy.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know what was always interesting to me, cuz I, you know, I personally use Lyft, but when, when I was, when I was thinking about like people's resistance even to Lyft, right? I'm like, how different is that than just calling the taxi cab? You still, a stranger is still rolling up, you hopping in the car.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  And you gotta decide whether you wanna get in the car and you feel safe. So it's just always interesting about how our brains work when it comes to old models versus new models.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  This is gonna kinda explode the myths around the old models and really help people see the advantage of adopting new models of technology and thinking of it from, whether it's from an enterprise standpoint or the user standpoint, I think if we accomplish that, then our job is done.

• 24:59Ben Horowitz?

  I also think, you know, I mean, the thing that I really wanna do is take the, that message directly to the people coming up, trying to make the hustle, trying to get to the next phase of their life, rather than, you know, having to run it through, you know, some third-party filter that's got like their own agenda about they like the old world and they don't want it to change and all that kinda thing.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  So I, I grew up in Detroit and, you know, it's a factory town and, and, you know, when you go through the communities, you see all these kinda, you know, payday loan places, you know, and I hear the conversation, I know people who literally live check from check, I grew up with it in my family, and, you know, I know it's always been a driver for me, like I never wanted that pressure of living check to check, you know, it's not healthy, it's like physically it's not healthy, emotionally it's not healthy, and it's definitely not healthy spiritually, and so i- if you can speak to an audience like that, you know, this is a hard-working, blue-collar town, people working in factories, they're doing these long hours, and they're often behind, they're often trying to play catch-up because, you know,

• 26:04Speaker 01

  An emergency happens, you know, they gotta get something fixed. It's bad weather out there, right? Roof go caves in and they're like, oh, man, I ain't gonna be able to do this till payday. You know, you can speak directly to those people who are just trying to figure it out. Like, what, what would you say to convince them that this is an option? If they're, you know, willing and open to exploring it?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think like, I mean, we talked so much about this being like the land of equal opportunity. And like, we kind of put the responsibility on the individual to pull themselves up. But the way the system is set up, so often the system keeps pushing people down.

• 26:37Ben Horowitz?

  Well, and telling people that there's no opportunity. You get like fed that there's no opportunity as opposed to being fed the opportunities.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you're supposed to believe that the system works very well, even though what it's really doing is holding you down.

• 26:49Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Why does your employer need to actually hold back your paycheck?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  How have employers responded to that? How have companies responded to that? Have they been like, yo, this is cool? Or are they like, yo, what are y'all doing with our interest right now, y'all?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  We've been able to make this work as a product that goes directly to consumers. But businesses have actually started like wanting this, and there's a couple of reasons why. One is their employees are actually less stressed now about money. Like, they're not thinking about a whole bunch of other things. Attendance goes out because people can buy gas and come in, so their workers are actually like more productive. The other piece too is you're beginning to see this happen in the market, like Uber's paying people more often, Lyft is paying people more often. You have to stay competitive, and so we have a lot of companies that now actually tell their employees about us. So that their employees can have the benefits and there's like no work for the company to do, so it's actually really easy.

• 27:37Ben Horowitz?

  So one of the things that that is really interesting to me because you're actually taking the financial risk and you're trusting Vaughn. And so tell us a little bit about like, how do you know him? Why do you trust him? And why are you able to have a good business doing that?

• 27:55Speaker 02

  So what we're doing is giving him access to his pay. For a long time, the entire banking system, and it's still like that, the entire traditional system doesn't know whether Vaughn has worked today or not. And like, they wait for two weeks for the paycheck to show up, and then they're like, okay, now Vaughn is good because that batch process ran in the company. What we're using is technology that didn't exist five years ago. We're using the smartphone and things that are in the smartphone to tell if Vaughn is actually working today or not. And so knowing that Vaughn has actually worked, we know he's gonna get the paycheck. And that he's already on the money and if he's already on the money, then he should have access to it. But the other, the traditional players don't know Yvonne's work. They're not used to that kind of information.

• 28:35Ben Horowitz?

  That to me is one of the most powerful things because great businesses are built on great trust. And because you can trust your partners, you can do things that people could never do with a million contracts.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 28:49Ben Horowitz?

  And you know, the fact that you guys don't have a contract, he didn't fill out a loan application.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like quite different from the traditional system where we've built this new system where trust is like inherently a part of it. Whereas in the old system, it's like distrust is a part of it, which is why they make you sign these long terms and conditions and every possible outcome is thought through and set up to be in a way that's advantageous for the company.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a big thing. You get people who push this kind of generalized idea of like the man or the system or, you know, things that you can't trust and without really any exploration into those spaces, it doesn't really foster that type of relationship dynamic where you like, oh, I trust that this is my best interest, even though human behavior, you know, really leads us to think that instinctively we're more trustworthy than we give ourselves credit for. And I think part of it is like marketing the idea that, you know, technology isn't this boogeyman. It's really just curious people who have figured out ways to simplify the world and figured out ways to monetize their ideas and thoughts and in a way that we exchange information. We're so excited to have you guys though.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  This is dope, man.

• 29:56Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, super excited. Yeah, we really appreciate it.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Appreciate y'all.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.