When Your 'Flaw' Becomes Your Edge with Comedian Hasan Minhaj

To recognize your own talent takes time and self-awareness. But to find the courage to pursue it? That often requires a spark of inspiration from someone else. For Hasan Minhaj, that spark came from an unexpected trio—a teacher, a roommate, and Napster. A former correspondent on The Daily Show, Hasan’s natural gift of gab allowed him to build a wide-ranging career which spans standup, acting, Netflix shows, and, most recently, his podcast, Hasan Minhaj Doesn’t Know. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Hasan to discuss his journey—why gifted people crave external validation, why kids are braver than adults, and where comedians truly rank in the artistic hierarchy. This… is A Bit of Optimism. For more on Hasan and his work check out: hasanminhaj.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Stand-up comedy, in the pecking order, you know, you got your actors, your musicians, you have your magicians and your clowns. Stand-up comedy is somewhere between magicians and clowns. That's where I kind of place us.

• 0:15Simon Sinek?

  Between clown and magician. So somewhere between David Copperfield and Bozo, there's a comedian.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  It's Hasan Minhaj.

• 0:29Simon Sinek?

  Every single one of us has a teacher, or a coach, or someone who saw something in us when we were younger and took us under their wing. We are who we are in part because of that person. Now imagine if that discovery, that talent that you learned from that person, can actually create an entire career. That's exactly what happened with Hasan Minhaj. He went on to have a wildly successful career in comedy, including being on The Daily Show and host of The Patriot Act. But it was actually his teacher, back in high school, who saw something in him. And imagine, just imagine, if all of us could find that thing

• 1:14Simon Sinek?

  and run with it. This is a bit of optimism. Oh, and a quick aside, my apologies in advance to Todd.

• 1:24Simon Sinek?

  I'm always curious about people's origin stories. Like, how you found yourself on a path of comedian?

• 1:32Speaker 00

  Okay. What is my X-Men origin story? Okay. I grew up in Davis, California, which is a small-ish town next to Sacramento, California, not to brag. Northern California is kind of the, I would say, the forgotten area of California that I represent very hard. But I went to a public school, I went to Davis Senior High School. I was a energetic, but talkative student that had trouble focusing and paying attention, completing tasks, arriving to things that I needed to get to on time, which I still struggle with to this day. But I had a teacher. Her name is Miss Takiuchi, and she was the computers teacher. I mean,

• 2:17Speaker 00

  this is dating me. We literally had a thing called computers class, where you would take Mavis Beacon typing, and you would learn C++ as a programming language. But at the time...

• 2:28Simon Sinek?

  I know.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  I it just sounds so insane right now with like everything that's happening in AI. So anyways, I was a bit of a blabbermouth. I would get into trouble at school and Ms. Takiuchi ended up putting me into a thing called speech and debate and forensics. And I did very good at it. I placed at it. She was one of the first people in my life that kind of pulled me to the side. And she said, hey, you have this, you have this gift. You have the gift of gab. It's certainly not helpful in class. It's quite annoying. But there is a place for you to do it here and you should, you should really do it more. And I just thought it was a cool kind of high school activity. I thought it was just a cool way to, to wear oversized suits and go on speech and debate tournaments.

• 3:11Speaker 00

  And then when I got to college, funny enough, my freshman year of college was the birth of Napster, LimeWire, Kazaa. A buddy of mine downloaded a bunch of standup comedy specials. I had no idea what those things were. And one day I went to go visit my buddy's roommate. And he was watching Chris Rock's Never Scared. So the year is 2004. My buddy is just cracking up. His roommate is just like cackling. And I'm watching Chris Rock perform in this really beautiful purple velvet suit. And he's at Constitution Hall in Washington DC.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  And he is talking about money, politics, sex, religion, relationships. Pretty much all the third rail issues you are not allowed to talk about in class. Or at the time I was working at Office Max, you're certainly not allowed to talk about that at Office Max while you're on the clock. And I just, I had this kind of aha moment where I go, oh, that's funny speech and debate. The the rest was history. I started Googling how to become a standup comedian.

• 4:21Simon Sinek?

  My path is almost identical. It's a little bit of sliding doors, right? Which is here I am, a hyperactive kid with ADHD. I'm literally bouncing my foot while I'm talking to you. Can't finish things, like missed every deadline that was ever given to me. Show up late to everything. All of the traditional ADHD things like you. All of my friends in high school, my friends had a subject. I was always intimidated. This one was really good at history and this one was really good at math. And this one was really good at English and this one was a really good writer. And I was kind of like average at pretty much everything. And I went through this stress like, what's my subject? And I realized I couldn't read books, but I had to pass school.

• 5:03Simon Sinek?

  I got really good at asking questions, really good listening and really good of explaining things back to teachers, saying, do I have this right? Because I had to learn from talking, otherwise I was going to fail. And so I realized my mouth was my talent, like speaking was my talent. And I thought, oh, I should be a lawyer.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  And you ended up going to law school. You did that, right? You went, you went to law school.

• 5:25Simon Sinek?

  I went to law school in England. I finished half a law degree. I dropped out and I happened to be dating a girl at the time. You talk about kismet, luck, whatever it is. I happened to be dating a girl at the time who was studying at Syracuse University in the School of Advertising. And she says to me, what about advertising? You can talk, you like the rigor of forming an argument from law. Why don't you go do that creatively? And that, that's what I used to say in my job interviews. When they said, why do you want to be in advertising? They would look at my resume and they'd be like, why do you want to be in advertising? I'd be like, it's the exact same as law. I have to make an argument to a group of people as to why they should or shouldn't convict, why they should or shouldn't want this product.

• 6:09Simon Sinek?

  And I said, it's all the same thing. I used to call it the big sell at 20, whatever I was 22, 23 years old. And it's just by these strange circumstances of you have these, somebody recognizes a talent. You don't know how to apply that talent, but you kind of go in whatever direction is available. Something or someone shows up that sort of slaps you in a direction that you're like, huh? And thus a career is born and very, very similar skill sets, very, very similar origin story, completely different directions.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Do you work with young people? Do you work with, like, what are the youngest age group of people that you work with in your travels around the world?

• 6:48Simon Sinek?

  The youngest people I've done a wide discovery with were 16.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Wow, that's amazing, man.

• 6:53Simon Sinek?

  But having said that, I, when my nephew was in grade school, how old was he? He was probably nine. I went and gave a talk to seven, eight, nine year olds about leadership. And these kids were smarter than any adults I've ever talked to. I said, who can tell me what a leader is? And like a whole bunch of hands, right? You know, they're kids. And I call on one girl, you know? And she says, a leader is somebody who looks after the people around them. I'm like, correct, you know? And I'm like, well, what makes a good leader? And they're like, a good leader is one that makes their friends feel seen and hurt. I'm just like, kids are smarter and then we get dumb and I have to go teach people to be like a seven year old.

• 7:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:36Simon Sinek?

  But anyway, that's the youngest.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Well, I was about, I was about to tell you that, which is I have two children. I have a seven year old daughter. I have a five year old son. And one of the things that I, I don't know if you, if you're a believer in this, if you're a believer in destiny or, or kismet, or I, I certainly struggle with this at times, which is regret. I'll go through something in a personal relationship or specifically with a familial relationship. If you've ever dated someone and you've visited their family and then you find out how normal they are, and then you just go, oh my God, it didn't have to be like this.gov? When you look at your own family. So I've had these moments where I was like, oh man, the way I grew up or it didn't, it didn't have to be this way. If only someone could have gotten to me earlier.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  What if I had met Ms. Takiuchi in the seventh grade? Maybe I could have started the performing arts as a 12 year old or a 13 year old. And so I, I, I look at my children, I go to their class and I try to be a parent that's involved with their kind of after school activities and just, just the things that they like to do. I try to the best of my ability, really see them. So when they do something that is brave or courageous, whoa, like you're, you're four years old and you just went on the, not the high dive, but the middle dive. That's kind of crazy because seven year olds do that and you're four. That's pretty brave. You know, you're brave, right? Like I try to do these things that I wish I had at a younger age, which is, hey, I see something in you.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  There, there is, there are these innate qualities within you. You, you should be aware of them, that you are capable and intelligent or courageous or brave. But there's something else that you were talking about when you were talking about speaking to young kids, which is really beautiful is that. That sort of Bluetooth channel is open. They're very open to being airdropped information. They haven't been guilt tripped into the bureaucracy of adulthood. One of the things that's really beautiful about children is if you go to a group of kids and you you ask them, who wants to be the leader? Someone will vocally raise their, actually, several kids might raise their hands. A lot of things are happening, like, number one, there is massive accountability.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  There's face-driven accountability, like, me, yeah, pick me. It's my full government name. Pick me. And here's my social security number. I really believe this. I should be the leader in line. And then also the risk to put yourself out there. And the time that I spent as I was climbing the ranks of stand-up comedy, and I had day jobs where I'd have to go work in an office, all of those things of, whose fault is it? It was hot potato. Who's in charge? Hot potato. Blame, responsibility, all of these things become obfuscated through Slack, iMessage, email, cell phones, and bureaucracy. Whereas I've seen more courage in my daughter's first grade class of like,

• 10:27Speaker 00

  I'm the one who let the team down, and I am sorry, you know? Or like, I'm the one that will lead the team to victory. Here I am. And I just, I think, I don't know what it is about adulthood that teaches us that, but it sucks. Adulthood and and modern work have become these condoms for conflict, where like, I don't want to be blamed. I don't want to put myself out there. And I just see so much, I see the opposite with kids. There's so much courage. They're so brave.

• 10:53Simon Sinek?

  Part of it is the neocortex, like, the part of our brain that is underdeveloped until, I think, 13 is what Piaget said, right? Fully developed, like?

• 11:01Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't know.

• 11:02Simon Sinek?

  I don't know either.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  I don't want to claim it, no.

• 11:07Simon Sinek?

  But the point is, is like, the irrational homo sapien brains, they're not fully developed. In other words, we don't have full capacity for rational analysis until, until, you know, our teenage years. And so when kids don't have that, they're operating in that beautiful mammalian state, that beautiful sort of gut. So, because you hear entrepreneurs, or folks like you, like, how did it work? When I trusted my gut, it worked. When I took too much advice from other people and doubted myself, it always didn't work, right?

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:34Simon Sinek?

  And what kids are doing is they're trusting their guts. Because that's all they have. Because they can't think it through. They, they don't weigh pros and cons. It doesn't exist. They don't consider the humiliation that they'll suffer. They don't care. They wear, they're dressed as Spider-Man to go to school. What humiliation? You know?

• 11:50Speaker 00

  And there's, there's also not a political 4D chess.

• 11:53Simon Sinek?

  There's no angling.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's no angling. There's no angling, or Machiavellian.

• 11:57Simon Sinek?

  There's nothing Machiavellian. And they have such a, like, I was so blown away. I thought I was gonna, you know, I thought kids, when I said, who's the leader? That's the person who's in charge. Nobody gave me that answer. Right? That's, that's an adult answer, the irony is. And I think when you strip a human being down to their purest form, where you get rid of the insecurities, and the politics, and the angling, and the over rationalizing, and overthinking, and weighing the pros and cons, and if, if you just strip all that away, you get a good leader, a good friend, the joy of life. Yes, there's stress. Of course, there's stress. Kids have tons of stress.

• 12:39Simon Sinek?

  I lost my teddy bear in an airport when I was a kid. Let me tell you, huge stress. But the point is, is that the irony is, is we have to aspire to be like that. And that's kind of what we teach. Right? Like, I love getting advice from old people, because they don't care what you think about them anymore.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Totally, totally.

• 12:57Simon Sinek?

  They don't care anymore. And so like, old people and young people.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Super old and super young, yes.

• 13:02Simon Sinek?

  Like, really close to birth and really close to death. That's really like, the purest form.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  Totally, totally. Yeah, yeah.

• 13:10Simon Sinek?

  And then we mess it up in the middle, to get to the end and be like, I should have stayed like the beginning.

• 13:15Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. And, and there is all, there's, there's one other detail that I wanted to add to, which is, both you and I are kind of bonding on being Somewhat of, you know, for lack of a better word, somewhat of outsiders. Oh, I'm not a great standardized test taker. I'm not the most book smart. I did not top my calculus class. I didn't get a five on this AP test, so on and so forth. But I think there's something that you've probably seen in your career. And I didn't know this was a gift or asset in my career. But I, I certainly hope that we can start valuing it in adult professional settings and certainly with younger children, which is when you said that you were able to see and hear something and then ask your teacher, is this what you're asking for? Or is this what you need?

• 14:01Speaker 00

  That kind of problem solving, real world problem solving. That's POV and discernment and figure it the fuck outness. And that is a gift. I, I think the term for it is called street smarts, but I, but I think what you're referring to is really important, which is figure it the fuck out, which, which is, that's all filmmaking is. That's all comedy is. That's every writer's room. Hey, what, what is your perspective? What is your POV? Hey, this is our budget. What are we gonna do? And all of that stuff is, there's all these intangible skills outside of, hey, I'm a good writer and final draft.

• 14:35Simon Sinek?

  That's really, really interesting. I mean, for me, and I've said this before, which is, uh, I think the solutions we find to the struggles we have and where kids become our strengths as adults, like it wasn't what's my point of view. And like this was, I either had to figure out how to do the homework, the way they told me I had to, which wasn't working from a brain, or I had to find a different way to learn, or I was gonna fail. And some kids failed. And I wish that they had parents who said, clearly you're bad at math, but my God, you're a good singer.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Or not even that, man. You know, I want, I don't even want it to be that cliche, Simon. It's not like, man, you, you could have been a pop star. It's actually, holy shit, you're a great organizer.

• 15:18Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  When it comes to ra- rallying, oh, you can rally 10 people to do anything.

• 15:23Simon Sinek?

  Like my niece, my niece has insanely phenomenal EQ. Like off the charts, old soul EQ. And as a teenage girl, it is useless, you know? And it doesn't benefit getting ahead in school, but

• 15:44Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 15:44Simon Sinek?

  Just you wait, as soon as she's in the real world, this magical talent, this gift.

• 15:52Simon Sinek?

  I think what you're touching on is we don't tell kids what the gifts they have are that are outside of the report card.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  Right, right, right. Yes, yes. And by the way, listen, I wanna, I totally get, we need objective metrics and numbers and P and L sheets. Like, I get it.

• 16:10Simon Sinek?

  We're not slamming the traditional metrics. We're saying and, and.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  I'm saying and, and, yes. And there are other things that then will bring dividends and revenue and money and et cetera, et cetera. And you would be shocked at how important those things are.

• 16:28Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. This idea of conformity and non-conformity, where as kids were non-conformists and it works out great, then we become conformists for valid reasons, you know, which is when we're very little, we only want the approval of our parents. And as we go through adolescence, we need approval from our peers, which is important because it allows us to acculturate with a larger tribe outside of our immediate family, which is important for survival. So I get that, but the balance seems to tip too far. And what I find funny about this idea of conformity and non-conformity is when we're junior, we have to, so I mean, I'll just speak for myself, right? All of the things that people criticized me for when I was junior in my career, you're unfocused, you think weird, you need to be good at all

• 17:13Simon Sinek?

  these other things that I suck at, right?

• 17:16Speaker 00

  Biology, calculus.

• 17:18Simon Sinek?

  Being organized. How about, you know, just like, when you're a junior person and are working in a corporation, like, your job is filing. Like, I remember, I remember early in my career, my boss asked me to get him a file that I'm responsible for. About two hours later, I walked into his office like this, "Ha! You didn't think I had it, did you?" And it was in that moment that I realized that when you're that excited that you found a file, you're disorganized.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  And Simon, when did you get fired? At what point?

• 17:49Simon Sinek?

  I I mean, are we really gonna get on that road?

• 17:52Speaker 00

  No, we don't.

• 17:53Simon Sinek?

  I didn't get fired, but I I got my my performance reviews.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 17:58Simon Sinek?

  My performance reviews were, they went something like this. You're doing a great job. But that's not how we do things here. Were my average performance reviews. But what I realized, going back to the point I was making, which is all the things that made me weird, different, don't know what to do with you when I was young, are now celebrated, asked for, demanded, now that my career moved. Same same everything, but it was a weakness when I was junior and it is the strength now that

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:32Simon Sinek?

  I've figured out how to stay on the path.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  And man, I feel for all those kids where their gifts aren't articulated through a standardized test. I feel for those kids, man, because I was one of those kids. I was a very middle of the pack, middling kid that really struggled. And then in my professional life, Del Taco, Office Max, Safeway, I worked in tech, like every single one of those jobs, I was fired. I was let go.

• 18:57Simon Sinek?

  Was it consistent why you fired or was it just bad luck?

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was consistent. It was me.

• 19:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  I was the problem.

• 19:04Simon Sinek?

  Okay, accountability, I like it.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, but they would, they would always call me in and they would just go, look, you, you clearly don't want to be here. We can tell when we are going this way, your mind is here. Like, you're always going somewhere else. Your enthusiasm, your passion, your patience, you are extremely impatient when it comes to the rules of being a cashier clerk at Safeway. And I'm like, you're totally right. Like, I don't, I don't fully adopt and buy into all the rules. I am late to work. I, I, I, I don't have it. I'm not a great employee here. Like, it was completely my fault. That being said, I remember my last job that I got fired at, I was working tech support for a tech company. And I was doing stand up comedy at the time and my manager called me in.

• 19:46Speaker 00

  And if you work in tech, many people have had this thing where you, whenever you get that, that message, hey, can we chat for a minute? It's bad. Do you have a moment to chat? Just know that it's gonna be bad.

• 19:56Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  It's not positive.

• 19:57Simon Sinek?

  It's the same in relationships, by the way.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you have a moment to chat? Question mark?

• 20:02Simon Sinek?

  I don't wanna chat. No.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's never like, I just wanna let you know, on a fall day, when the sunlight hits your eyes, I mean, it really brings out the hazel in your eyes. And I just wanna let you know. It's, it's, it's never that.

• 20:16Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  It's never that. It's usually something bad. But I remember I was getting let go. And I was asked to bring my laptop in. They make you like turn in your laptop like you're Edward Snowden or something. But I remember my manager let me go and she goes, look, I can just tell, is there somewhere else you would rather be right now? And I knew the exact place that I would wanna be. I wanted to be at the Punch Line. There was a show that I really wanted to be attending, but I had to be at work. And I think that feeling of being out of alignment, like, I want to be here, but I am here. It manifested itself in me just not being a good fit at all of these places.

• 20:54Simon Sinek?

  Okay. Yes, and. Now let's take the opposite. I knew a woman who, if you asked her what she did, she said, I'm an actor. Except she had been a bartender for about 20 years? And the last quote unquote acting job she had was 20 years ago? Got the dream, got the survival job, right? I don't know if it's talent, I don't know if it's effort, I don't know if it's luck, but one of those things is missing. It's not working out. Maybe it's you, maybe it's not you. I don't know. At what point do you like let the dream go?

• 21:35Simon Sinek?

  Or at what point do you say, maybe I don't have the talent, the effort, the luck?

• 21:39Speaker 00

  You know, I, I, I am always reticent to prescribe how other people should act or live their life.

• 21:45Simon Sinek?

  But the point is, is being diehard for the dream is not always the best advice.

• 21:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would say for me, man, look, I, I. When I first moved to Los Angeles and pursued, you know, the dream, it was to be a comedian and be in movies and in TV shows. There was a lot of things that I wanted. There were many shows that I auditioned for that I didn't get. But I'll speak for myself. The thing that I'm the most proud of is that no matter what hand I was dealt, I played my hand to the best of my ability. And as information came in, I just iterated. Like, hey, I'm auditioning to get into this comedy club. The booker didn't pass me. Cool. I'll go to the comedy club across town. Like, I continue to iterate. And then the second thing that I did is, to the best of my ability, I don't try to

• 22:35Speaker 00

  litigate the the past, meaning whatever grievances or casting directors or jobs that didn't go my way. I'm not here to get my pound of flesh and try to pursue that. Like, I am taking the information and just like, you know, my browser Mozilla Firefox V ten point seven point one, every turn of the road, I'm just updating my path. Like, you know, I'm thirty nine years, I'll be turning forty in September. Did I want to be in Superbad when I was twenty two years old? Of course I did. Of course I wanted to be in Superbad. Of course I auditioned for those early Judd Apatow movies. And it would have been a dream to be a young twenty something in a very fun comedy.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  I'm forty years old now. That dream is over. That dream is for me. It's never gonna happen. I'm not, I'm not good at being a twenty two year old, but I'm pretty great at being now a thirty nine year old comedian.

• 23:29Simon Sinek?

  The intervening factor, the intervening factor in those two scenarios, because, you know, we're not offering prescriptions because we don't really know, right?

• 23:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, everyone's lived experience is different.

• 23:38Simon Sinek?

  But, but, but, the one intervening factor, in your case, my case, and those other cases, are somebody objective, not your mom, not your bestie, said, hmm, you got a thing. Somebody validated there's a talent, objectively, that if you get a little bit lucky, if you work hard and you foster that talent, like, you had gift of gab, sure, but gift of gab is not quite enough to be a comedian. You also have to get a laugh. You know, I have gift of gab, and you're funnier.

• 24:17Simon Sinek?

  Not much, but funny.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  It's a relative scale.

• 24:20Simon Sinek?

  It's a relative scale, right?

• 24:22Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 24:23Simon Sinek?

  But the point is, is we both had external, objective validation that gives you a little bit of confidence to stick with it, right? And then maybe every now and then you get a little bit more from somebody else. And that's enough to help you ignore the people who don't see it and keep looking for somebody else who does. But it's not your mom who says, honey, you're amazing. You should audition for American Idol.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, my parents did not validate me that way. I mean, maybe that's, maybe that's the reason why I am, I am a stand up comic.

• 24:53Simon Sinek?

  I mean, my parents loved me and they, they, they validated all sorts of things. But I also drove them nuts because I couldn't study.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  Are your parents still alive?

• 25:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. Very, very, very much so.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  Oh, and so, and, and how do they feel now that you're wildly successful and you have, you know, books and memes that have gone viral around the world?

• 25:12Simon Sinek?

  I mean, I guess Indian parents or Jewish parents are the same.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Very similar.

• 25:16Simon Sinek?

  I mean, I'm not a lawyer or a doctor, but they'll take it. They don't know how to describe what I do to their friends, but it's fine. My, you know?

• 25:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:24Simon Sinek?

  My, my dad gets asked, like Simon Sinek, you know?

• 25:28Speaker 00

  That's great. Oh, that's great.

• 25:30Simon Sinek?

  Well, your, don't your parents get asked like, like Nicki Minaj?

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Sure, yeah, all the time. Yeah, they're like, yeah, like, like the rapper.

• 25:37Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Um, what was I gonna say? I, I think, look, I think there's another thing that, uh, maybe it's a strength, which is, like, sure, I'm persistent and sure, I'm hardworking. I think everybody in my business and at that level is, and I'm sure with you in the publishing world, to write a book, it is, everybody is a good writer. Every, it's extremely competitive. Everybody has a high motor and is like really driven. I think another thing that maybe I didn't know it was a strength, but when I was younger, which was, I'm going to take in information and then pivot accordingly. I think I'm pretty good at that, the power of the pivot. And, and maybe it's because I'm a child of immigrants and we know that the plan is not always set.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  The plan is this fluid thing. It really is like that computer game Oregon Trail where you're like, oh shit, like your sister has died of scurvy and you're like, all right, let's, let's barter.

• 26:32Simon Sinek?

  Lemons for everyone.

• 26:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, you just, you have this thing of like,

• 26:36Simon Sinek?

  I understand.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  Hey, the plan is going to change. It's not, I had this vision board and it's, it's supposed to be like, it's supposed to be like nothing. It's like.

• 26:44Simon Sinek?

  This is where ADHD helps us.

• 26:46Speaker 00

  Yes, very much.

• 26:47Simon Sinek?

  Because I can't remember the plan, let alone stick to it. And so, and also because my brain moves like a pinball machine, you know, which it's not a strength or a weakness. It has value and it has liability. I don't sleep because my brain doesn't turn off, you know? So, but again, all of these, none of these things are strengths or weaknesses. They're just, they're characteristics and attributes. And I think what we have to learn to do is put ourselves in situations where those characteristic attributes manifest as strengths.

• 27:18Simon Sinek?

  Whereas when you, and this goes back to the original conversation, which is if you follow the path that's prescribed, for some people, it'll work out just, and I would argue for most people, it would work out just fine. But for someone like me, the prescribed path and the school path and the, whatever it is, my, it just, it's never going to work. The trick was, and this is, this is what we're getting to, this is the core of what we're getting to. For some reason, whether it's luck, external factors, parenting, little bit of all of it, for some reason, it didn't destroy my self-confidence. For some reason, I didn't think of myself as dumb or, you know, I had a 2.93 GPA when I graduated college.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Holy shit.

• 28:00Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, not the best GPA.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's pretty bad.

• 28:03Simon Sinek?

  Okay, okay, settle. I know why I got it.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 28:08Simon Sinek?

  I got two D's, neither of which I deserved.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, gotcha. No accountability.

• 28:14Simon Sinek?

  None.

• 28:15Speaker 00

  Nicely done, Simon. Hey, let me ask you this. So this podcast is called A Bit of Optimism, right?

• 28:20Simon Sinek?

  Just a tad, just a wee.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  Just a tad.

• 28:23Simon Sinek?

  Just a hair of optimism.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Okay, I'm sure many people who are fans of your work look to you for your perspective and your framing of the world. So obviously, the news, politics, natural disasters, these things inundate our social feeds and our cell phones every day. And people are really going through it. Life is lifing. What do you do? Do you look at the present and the future with optimism, or are you scared of the future? How do you look at the world and how do you advise other people when?

• 28:57Simon Sinek?

  The future is, I think the future tends to word good.

• 29:02Simon Sinek?

  Sometimes the road there is bumpy. And sometimes there's pain and liability getting towards it, but I believe the future tends towards good. And I believe that you can maintain confidence in the bright future based on the quality of your relationships. Right? Just think of it, just think of it as by yourself, right? Which is the only, well, not the only, but a massively significant reason why you're able to deal with personal struggle, personal trauma, things that go really badly in your life or career, is when you have at least one person who can put their hand on your shoulder and say, "I'm with you. Don't worry about it. No matter what happens, I'll be by your side no matter what."

• 29:41Simon Sinek?

  If you have one person who has, who gives you that, it is remarkable the strength and courage we have to keep going. I mean, a real friend who sits in mud with you. If you have one of those, it gives you confidence. And so what I have learned is, the more that I have offered that comfort to the people I admire in the trenches, fighting the good fight, and said, "I'm here for you. If you have to cry, if you have to shout, if you just need a distraction, I don't care the time of the day, don't care the time of the night, I'm here."

• 30:17Speaker 00

  That's awesome, man.

• 30:18Simon Sinek?

  And so, and so, and so that's what gives me optimism. Gonna change the subject on you, make a sharp left turn here. The role of the comedian, the role of the court jester. You know, the jester is the only one who spoke truth to the king, right?

• 30:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:33Simon Sinek?

  I'm just curious, just even in, how, how long have you been officially a comedian?

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Twenty years of my life.

• 30:39Simon Sinek?

  Twenty years of your life, okay. Have you, have you seen the role of the comedian change? Where telling joke, like the, the nature of the joke? Like, are there more social commentary comedians now than there were? What is the importance of those social commentary comedians, if any? The social commentary comedian gets canceled? Chappelle, one of the great social commentators, right? Should comedians be given a wider berth because they play a vital role? I'm just curious on, on the role of the comedian, because they are not the mainstream media.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  Sure, yeah.

• 31:21Simon Sinek?

  They play a very different and often important role.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  So maybe what I can do is, is, is give you my framework and put it in different buckets.

• 31:29Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  So let me, let me put, let me put it this way. So, real quick, let, we can talk about the art form of live stand-up comedy. I think that's what you're talking about, the court jester, the stand-up comedian. So that is a, like, historically, it is a live art form that was birthed. It is, it is a uniquely American art form, by the way, that was started in the United States of America, in the West Village, as local nightclub acts in the West Village. So if you've been to the Comedy Cellar, if you've been to the Blue Note Jazz Club, that was the birthplace of, of kind of modern stand-up comedy. Jazz musicians, nightclub performers, they were called nightclub performers. You would go into these little smoky basements. And performers would sing songs. You would essentially do a variety show.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  There would be a singer, a piano player, perhaps a jazz musician, and then the stand-up comedian. Everyone from Dick Gregory to a young Richard Pryor to a young Bill Cosby, they would perform at these nightclubs in the West Village. And adults would essentially, grown adults would go into these basements and kind of do, the social expectation was, it was like an adult Christmas party. Some performers are going to tell us naughty jokes while we are slightly induced with alcohol. It really was kind of like a fancier version of your Christmas party of like, hey, let's loosen up a little bit and let's, let's crack some wise ones between each other.

• 32:51Simon Sinek?

  And let our hair down a little bit and allow the

• 32:53Speaker 00

  Let our, let our, let our hair down a little bit.

• 32:55Simon Sinek?

  barriers of what's considered socially acceptable, just to open up the aperture a little bit.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'll give you an example. So I don't drink personally. For, you know, religious reasons, I don't drink. I've never had a sip of alcohol in my life, but I've asked my friends, I go, hey, I always felt left out when people would go, do you want to go grab, grab a drink? So I asked my buddy, I go, what is that? What do you guys do when you like grab a glass of wine or you drink? And he goes, my buddy goes, listen, man, really what it is, it's, it's when you hold that cup, you're basically saying like, everything that happened in the office over there, that's like, let's leave that to the side. How do you really feel about Todd? And we can talk shit about Todd. Like, and it's this, there's this social cue in the like

• 33:34Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  clink of like, fuck Todd. And you're like, yeah, fuck Todd. You get to, you get to like commiserate over, um.

• 33:42Simon Sinek?

  Do you realize all, all people named Todd have now just unfollowed me?

• 33:46Speaker 00

  They've unfollowed, unfortunately. Sorry. We, we can, we can swap that out with whoever you dislike Todd. Um, so that at its core was to get back to what live standup comedy is, that's kind of what it is, right? And then the proliferation of what became cable, which was HBO, George Carlin, they started to, and then The Tonight Show, they would put nightclub comedians on television. And that became a slightly different medium, meaning the medium that it was governed by was the medium of television. I'm going to perform for a live studio audience, but really there's another character here and it's the camera right here. And that's going to broadcast to your home, you in your living room. In the 1970s or 1980s, you're going to sit there and go like, huh, I think this guy's,

• 34:30Speaker 00

  this Ray Romano guy's pretty funny. I think he's funny. You know, you, you'll then judge based on that thing. So that then created a new thing called like the standup comedy special.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  We're very aware of this, but Simon, now there's like a third version of this, which is television has been digitized by streaming and social media. And now there's a comment section. So what started as a nightclub art form for, I'm not kidding, 125 people in a basement in the West Village, now translated to when you go see stand-up comedy, you might see it literally on your phone, on YouTube, and your broadcast audience is for eight billion people. And so you're watching a recording of someone performing live. And then there's another audience watching on your screen. And then there's a third audience, which is the comment section and people talking about it on the internet.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  For me as a comic, what I try to remember is, hey, this is an art form similar to live music, live jazz. It is a live art form. I R L, you are here to perform comedy.

• 35:39Simon Sinek?

  I get it.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  And, and, and get them on your side. You're, you're getting a group of strangers on your side. So I, I always bring it back to that. And that's what it's, it is for me and it will always be.

• 35:48Simon Sinek?

  I'm curious if, in this modern day and age.

• 35:52Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 35:52Simon Sinek?

  If the comedian is still the right medium for pointing out the absurdities, the ironies, the truths to powers, the hypocrisies of politics, life, parenting, you know, relationships. Because people now can get triggered by the mirror. The comedian will sometimes hold up the mirror. You may not like what you see.

• 36:21Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 36:21Simon Sinek?

  And so death to the messenger.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  So let me, let me say this. So two answers to that question. Number one, is it the court jester's job to speak truth to power, et cetera? So my answer to that question is. The primary job of the comedian is to entertain. As someone who went to law school and had to take the LSAT, perhaps the necessary condition is entertainment. No, no, no, remember that there's the necessary and sufficient.

• 36:47Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  Necessary is you must be funny. You have to induce laughter, otherwise it's a speech. If they don't laugh, it's a speech. You're lecturing them. So that's the necessary condition. The sufficient condition, which it'd be nice to, but it doesn't have to, is maybe there's a lesson. Maybe it reflects something larger about society. Maybe it speaks truth to power. Maybe it talks about the election. Maybe it frames up the existential crisis that is adult life. Or maybe it's just funny. Maybe it's just a fart joke. Maybe it's just a dick joke. Maybe it's just to make fun of Todd. Maybe the whole point is just say, fuck Todd. And so I think when there's this inversion, that it has to be that. That's not what it is.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Don't make the sufficient condition the necessary condition. It's just the sufficient. Let's put that there. Then let's talk about the second part of your question, which is where are we in society? I'd put it this way. Stand-up comedy on the, in the pecking order, you know, you got your actors, your musicians. You have your magicians and your clowns. Stand-up comedy is somewhere between magicians and clowns. Let's call a spade a spade. Everybody wants to be a rock star.

• 38:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  If you could, close your eyes, ask any musician, ask any comedian you wish you could be.

• 38:07Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, rock star is number one, movie star is number two.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Rock star and movie star is up there. It's either Tom Cruise, or I want to be John Mayer. I want to be in a band and I want to emote. And I want people to love that. And then, and then stand-up comedy is, yeah, it's, it's there. So I, I, that's where I kind of place us.

• 38:30Simon Sinek?

  Between clown and magician. So somewhere between David Copperfield and Bozo.

• 38:38Simon Sinek?

  There's a comedian.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  It's awesome. And occasionally, we might surprise you and give you something a little bit more than you expected.

• 38:43Simon Sinek?

  Has your taste changed? Are you talking about very different things now than you were 20 years ago?

• 38:49Speaker 00

  Yes, as I've gotten older, I've, almost like my taste buds have become, you know, maybe more refined. So when I was an early open mic miker, things that were juvenile or stupid.

• 39:02Simon Sinek?

  Take it further than that. Take it further than that. When your career, when your career's going, you're working, it's like you already have some fame. You know, so you, you got a style, you got a voice, you figured that out, you got a fan base, you can, you can, you can sell out a, a, a show. To now, have your tastes changed? Have your observations changed? Have your point of view changed?

• 39:25Speaker 00

  Yes, 100%. Life, love, failure, pain, age, they have matured. Me, they have humbled me, they have matured me. I have seen loved ones pass away. I have attended funerals. I've seen people that I care about get diagnosed with cancer. I've lost friends to suicide. I have friends going through divorces. These things were not even premises. That I could entertain. When I first started as an open mic'er when I was 19. That was not even in my imagination, you know? And now I have fucking disc pain and a buddy of mine is going through a divorce. And I'm talking him through it while he's, you know, fighting for custody with, for his children.

• 40:09Speaker 00

  Like, this is life, you know? And that has informed my comedy. I have had dreams, I have had things that work, I have things that don't work, I have been humbled, I have been humbled, all of those things have informed who I am.

• 40:23Simon Sinek?

  So let's take this full circle, right? Which is, we started by talking about the magic that is a child. That is unabashed and lives in idealism.

• 40:36Simon Sinek?

  And follows their gut and cares about their fellow human being next to them. We lose it. We spend a lifetime. Every manner of social media guru trying to teach you how to get it back. And let go of attachment and let go of this and let go of that. But it sounds like there's the, there's something to be said for wisdom. There's something to be said for life experience that in some way, shape or form informs that gut. That maybe your gut itself becomes more refined. And you're not just going on, do I want to do it? Do I not want to do it? But other factors creep in like, is this the right thing to do?

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Correct. Or also, and I'm sure people who are listening to this may identify with this. You notice how the older you get, you meet someone? And maybe they're offering you a date or a business opportunity, maybe both. I don't know. I'm not here to judge anyone. But have you ever done that thing where, where someone goes, hey, Simon, I'd love to take you out to lunch. Or I'd love to chat with you about this. And they, they do a couple of things that give you red flags. And you go, you know, I'd, I'd rather not. It's okay. I'm busy. And really what you're saying is, hey, I've met you before.

• 41:46Simon Sinek?

  I've had a lot of those lunches.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  I've, I've met you before and I know how this ends.

• 41:51Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 41:51Speaker 00

  And so what, what's cool about getting older is you go, oh, you start to see those patterns and go, I don't need to engage with that. I met, I've met you before. I know how this ends.

• 41:59Simon Sinek?

  Early in my career, I had the opportunity to speak on the stage with one of my heroes. And that's, I met him for the first time. I, it was, it was amazing. I got to share a stage with one of my heroes, right? It was lunchtime. We're at this conference and he says to me, you want to get lunch? And I was like, oh, you know, yes, you know, so the two of us were walking out of the, the conference hall to go get lunch together. And a guy stops us, stands right in front of us and says, oh my God, my lucky day, two of my favorite people. I have a question for you. Can I tell you my elevator pitch and will you evaluate it for me? And I was like, sure, what do you got? And I watched my hero and he just zones out and starts looking at the sky. And I was like, hmm.

• 42:44Simon Sinek?

  I give him my answers, I give him my feedback. My friend, now friend, says nothing and we go get lunch. And I said to him, how come you didn't want to just give the guy your point of view? Like, who cares? He goes, no, the guy's a taker. He only wants from us. He's not trying to give anything to the world. And I was like, hmm, cynical, okay. I get it. Go forwards a little bit. And I would get emails saying, will you do this for me? But then I get, but then I get another email that says, I'm devoted to helping my team. I love them. All I want is for them to succeed and I want to get this right to support them. Will you do this for me? And I'm just like, oh. Right.

• 43:29Simon Sinek?

  He's, as you said, he's met those people before and he wants to give energy to people who give energy.

• 43:35Speaker 00

  Right. Now, did it give it away that his email was taker? [email protected]. Did that give it away? Was that a giveaway? This guy was a taker?

• 43:43Simon Sinek?

  Now it's like, I got, yeah. I love, now, I know, I got it. Yeah, anyway, yeah. I don't have anything funny to say. Otherwise, I would have said it. Hassan, truly, truly a joy.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Hey, man, this is great.

• 43:59Simon Sinek?

  I love your mind, I really do.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  Thanks, dude.

• 44:02Simon Sinek?

  I'll talk to you soon.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  I appreciate you, man.

• 44:03Simon Sinek?

  Thanks, man. Bye.

• 44:10Simon Sinek?

  If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simoncennec.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbenius, David Ja, and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Ruderchen.