Revisited: The Power of Doing One Thing Exceptionally Well with Gymshark Founder and CEO Ben Francis

Hello from Team Simon! Brand-new episodes of A Bit of Optimism are back next Tuesday, October 27. Before then, we're revisiting one last favorite: the company Simon names whenever someone asks which business actually lives the ideas he writes about. It's Gymshark, and its founder, Ben Francis. Maybe you know the pull: the bigger something gets, the more it feels like it should do more. More products, more markets, more people to please. It looks like growth. But it can quietly water down the very thing that made you special. Gymshark didn't start with a vision. It started with a website, a list of drop-shipped supplements, and months of waiting for anyone to buy anything. Then Ben spotted his nan's sewing machine on the dining room table and started making gym clothes for himself and his friends. Years later, with the business booming, Gymshark did what growing companies do and expanded into swimwear, hiking, and sportswear. The brand started to blur. So Ben pulled it all back to three words: We Do Gym. Ben is the founder and CEO of Gymshark, the gymwear brand he launched in 2012 while still working shifts at Pizza Hut. Today it's a billion-dollar global brand with a devoted community, a flagship store on London's Regent Street, and one ambition that shapes every decision Ben makes: to build a 100-year brand. I sat down with Ben at Gymshark HQ in the West Midlands, where the company values are painted on the walls in refreshingly blunt language. And I push him on the irony at the heart of the brand: how does a company built on humility make clothes designed for showing off? In this episode you'll learn: ➡️ Why the best businesses often start with ridiculously low ambitions ➡️ The "small menu" rule: why selling fewer things builds a better business ➡️ Why Ben stepped aside as CEO, and how it made him ready to take the job back ➡️ How a 100-year mindset changes who you hire (+ why "have they done it before?" is the wrong question) ➡️ His granddad's one-question test for a good year ➡️ Why even the most successful founders admit they're "just winging it" ➡️ Why the only competition worth winning is against yourself Ben's lesson is a freeing one: you don't have to be everything to everyone. Pick the thing you love, serve the people who love it too, and keep getting better at it. That's how you build something that lasts. This… is A Bit of Optimism. + + + Want to check out Gymshark? Head over to: https://www.gymshark.com/ + + + Chapters Chapters 00:00:00 Why Building a 100-Year Brand Changes Everything 00:01:55 The Accidental Birth of Gymshark: From Supplements to Sewing Machines 00:07:38 Setting the Bar Low: Why Small Ambitions Lead to Big Success 00:10:34 The Temptation to Expand: When Gymshark Lost Its Way 00:11:23 The Restaurant Menu Philosophy: Why Less Product Means Better Business 00:13:48 Stepping Down as CEO: The Hardest Decision That Saved the Company 00:20:43 What Cool Dads Build: The Personal Drive Behind a 100-Year Vision 00:24:27 The American Mistake: When Freedom Killed the Brand 00:27:45 The Onyx Launch: Selling to 1 Percent of Your Audience 00:34:46 Did You Make Any Money This Year: Lessons from Granddad 00:37:06 Give a Sh**: The Honest Values Written on the Walls 00:44:14 Winging It With Purpose: What Simon Learned in Fiji 00:47:56 Two Types of Winging It: Foundation vs Quicksand 00:53:21 The Head Nod Philosophy: Competition That Lifts Everyone Up 00:57:13 Family First: When Your Kid's Hug Beats Every Business Win + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Simon Sinek?

  I don't think I'm your core Gymshark customer, but I'm absolutely in love with your company because I preach these models of infinite mindedness and that committing to something bigger than yourself and ensuring that it can outlast you in its current form is very rare.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  I think, you know, getting a bit older, we've got three kids now. Everyone wants to be a cool dad, right? And I think there's nothing cooler than building something that really stands the test of time.

• 0:28Simon Sinek?

  I am an idealist. The things that I write about, the things that I speak about are about an ideal version of the way the world and business could work. But every now and then, every now and then, I get to meet a company that, well, it's hard for me to be accused of being a crazy idealist if what I imagine exists in reality. People are always asking me what businesses really exemplify the things that I write about. Well, one of them is Gymshark. Gymshark makes one thing for one audience. They make amazing gym wear for people who go to the gym. We do gym, as they say. And Ben Francis is one of the most remarkable young leaders I've ever met. He's the founder and CEO of Gymshark and he's only 33 years old.

• 1:13Simon Sinek?

  And in 13 years, he has built an iconic global brand. And how has he done it? By keeping it absolutely pure and wanting to build a company that can outlast him. In fact, one that can last 100 years. And given how so many young entrepreneurs start their businesses and try to build their businesses, waiting for the IPO, waiting for the exit, trying to have a liquidity event, Ben is the complete opposite. He is driven by the purest form of entrepreneurship to make great products for one community as best as he can. And the result is profound. This is a bit of optimism.

• 1:55Simon Sinek?

  I think you know this, I'm a huge fan of yours. We've only met once before. I knew about you and I knew about Gymshark. And it was, we met last year for the first time just because I wanted to meet you. You are what is, I think, the purest form of what an entrepreneur is, an entrepreneur should be.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:16Simon Sinek?

  And you've built a company that has that same purity. Gymshark was born in a gym. You made the product yourself, which is like this quintessential entrepreneurial story. Other people wanted the stuff that you were making for yourself. And before you know it, you're selling more than you can sew yourself. And thus is born Gymshark. How are you able to maintain, sort of, if we use the word purity? You're now a huge company. You're a global company. I'm at your headquarters here. There's three buildings worth of offices. You know, how are you able to make it still stay so focused and not be tempted to go do everything else?

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Oh, well, we're definitely tempted. And we have been over the years. Thank you, by the way. I think that was really kind of you to say. But I think the business is, well, we're 12, 13 years old now. And there's been so many different versions of our business since Gymshark first started. It's difficult at times to

• 3:15Speaker 01

  recognize what is a temptation and what is a really viable and valuable opportunity. Because the business has changed so much since it first started. So if I think back to 2012, 2013, Gymshark only sold supplements. We didn't even sell apparel. And then we, it was only through running the business we sort of fell in love with making apparel. To your point, literally for ourselves because we couldn't find the clothes that we wanted to wear. And then that naturally then removed, we would then remove supplements because it was, that then became a distraction. Particularly over the last sort of year. I think we've really hit our stride in knowing what is and isn't Gymshark for us.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  And this is more of a medium to larger business problem. I don't think this is a problem that maybe too many startups would have. But it was really about defining what is Gymshark. And that's where the We Do Gym campaign sort of started. It was about making sure that we're we're laser focused on what really makes us special. And again, that sort of We Do Gym campaign, that all came from our desire and ambition to be what we, we talk a lot internally about being a 100 year brand. We want to be a brand that lasts longer than myself or anyone here at this business. That, that's the real, real ambition. And I admire a lot of brands that really do stand the test of time. So if we look at it from a top line perspective, if we want to build a brand that will stand the test of time, to do that, we have to be really good at one thing. And it's, we're really focused on the gym.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  We're laser focused on the gym in a way that, that almost no one else is in the world. That's what makes us special. That's what we're going to focus on. And that's what we're going to make sure we're the best in the world.

• 4:55Simon Sinek?

  So you, so all of your stuff is made for proper use in the gym. And you may want to wear it for fashion, but that's up to you. Where I think a lot of brands are the other, the opposite, which is, look how fashionable and beautiful our stuff is. And it may or may not actually work in the gym.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:09Simon Sinek?

  I'm thinking about some of your, your.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Or, or sportswear focus. So I'm a massive admirer of some of the really big sportswear brands. And why they, they were very much around sports. Even if we look at Nike, for example, Nike started with a running shoe. And then obviously then is heavily a sports focused brand to me. And yeah, people wear it outside of sports, fashion and so on. But it's, it is a sportswear brand and so are many of the other big brands. Whereas we've said that we're not going to get into sports. Sport, competitive sport, team sport, isn't a Gymshark thing. The gym is the Gymshark thing. And it's, it's interesting because the gym in many ways is a solitary pursuit, but it's also aided by a broader community. And I think that's what we've really noticed. And I noticed again, I first went to the gym when I was about 16.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  And it was so intimidating to me because I walked into this gym and there was all these weights. And I didn't really know how to use the machines. I didn't know what I was doing. I went in, I was trying to do things. And I thought everyone was looking at me because I was doing it all wrong. In reality, everyone was sort of more worried about themselves than they were about me. And everyone was probably in their own heads as well. And then I actually went online. I was on bodybuilding forums and things like that, YouTube, to learn exercises and to find people that were basically going through the same thing as me. And again, that's where Gymshark was born out of. Building the apparel that no one else was making, but then also trying to offer that community to kids very much like myself at the time that were getting into the gym.

• 6:31Simon Sinek?

  How long in before you started thinking, I probably need some sort of vision. I probably need some sort of strategy. Like these words that are going to get thrown about in the entrepreneur world. I think a lot of people don't realize that it's not really how it happens.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  At minimum, five years.

• 6:44Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  So if I, so if I think back to how Gymshark first started, so before Gymshark, I, so I loved making things, websites, iPhone apps, things like that. And I actually had, I think I had about six or seven that I'd started prior that had failed, that just I tried and it just hadn't quite worked. Gymshark, when it first started was, I had an ambition to build a website that would sell things and transact. Everything, nothing else at that point had ever sold anything. It was a forum or a, it was a mini sort of social network. It was an iPhone app. And they didn't really make money. And the whole idea was they would through, through ads. They were all free and they would make money through ads. So I thought I'd love to sell something. And the Gymshark website was a website that sold things. And we, at the time, we found Shopify

• 7:29Speaker 01

  and that just made life 10 times easier than what it was prior. So the, the ambition was actually incredibly low. The ambition was to make a website that would sell things. And then, once we'd done that, again, which was actually relatively easy, then it was, let's sell something on the website. And then I sort of thought at the time, I thought, okay.

• 7:47Simon Sinek?

  Now, instead of selling other people's things, sell our own things.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Well, no, just sell something. Because just because I thought that, once we've made a website, it's almost like having a shop on the high street. People would just find their way there and someone would buy something. And no one did for months. There was, there was not enough stuff on the website. So it was supposed to sell supplements. And there was a friend of mine that worked not far from here. And he worked as a salesperson in a supplement, supplement brand. And I called him up and I said, I said, Dan, can you, can you get us some supplements to sell on this website? And he went away and he said, yeah, I'll get you a deal. I'll get you a deal on mate rates sort of thing. And he rang me back and he said, right, I've got you a deal. I can get you some supplements. You can put these on your website and sell them. But the minimum buy is eight grand. Now, I'd never heard of eight grand, let alone seen eight grand, right? I was a pizza, four pounds something an hour at the time. And I loved the job, by the way, but I just, I wasn't going to get that sort of money to get there.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  And I thought, oh God. So this whole idea of selling things online is great until you need products, until you need inventory. Anyway, with that problem, I then happened to fall upon a concept online called dropshipping. And then that was great. That was music to my ears because I thought, wow, this website that's going to sell things, I can now sell things without having to buy those things in the first place. So I basically had hundreds of supplements on the website and they would dropship from another website. Now, the margin was really low, but at that point, the ambition wasn't, it wasn't to make money necessarily. It was to sell something. I think it took a few months and eventually we sold something and I remember it to this day. It was a five kilogram tub of USN hyperbolic mass.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Someone bought it and it was fifty two pounds and of the fifty two pounds, two pounds was profit. And it took two or three months to get to that point. So it took two or three, we're making a pound a month in profit from that one order, right? But it didn't matter to me because at that point.

• 9:33Simon Sinek?

  You're still working, you're still working your pizza job.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. Actually, I was for a long time after that, but I think the ambition was literally to sell something. And I think there's, there's a lot to be said when starting a business, going back to your original point, not to have these massive ambitions to build a hundred year brand. I think there's a lot to be said about having incredibly low ambitions, set the bar so incredibly low and just incrementally build that thing. Because then that sale, I remember being at my mom and dad's in my bedroom, dancing around the room and I was so happy. And a lot of people that sell things online will never, ever forget that first sale, that first moment. And a lot of people that sell in markets or at shops, they'll all have that same feeling. And I'll never, ever, ever forget it. And then that's where that sort of momentum, that excitement builds and then it's let's try and sell, we've gone from one sale, let's try and sell one thing a month, let's try

• 10:20Speaker 01

  and sell two things a month, let's try and sell four things a month, let's try and sell something every week, every day, let's try and build product that's to a margin that would allow us to run a sustainable business. And then it just grows and grows and grows and goes from there. So we didn't start the business with the ambition to build a hundred year brand. We didn't have a vision or anything like that. We hadn't set out our values, a lot of the things that a lot of big businesses really need, I think, to, you know, manage themselves particularly directionally and, you know, we just started a business to sell things and then to sell more things and just slowly build that business. And then it, we then just started getting regular sales and it was really obvious to me because of the low margins in drop shipping, that it just, that just wasn't a viable business.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  And my nan was actually doing a curtain making course at the time and she had a sewing machine on her dining room table. And it was seeing that that made me think, well, maybe we could make clothes and we could make our own clothes. And then we literally just started making clothes for ourselves and our friends, put them online and, and that's where it all started.

• 11:22Simon Sinek?

  It goes back to purity, which is, I think the model for a lot of young entrepreneurs are, you know, the unicorns. And a unicorn, the definition's changed slightly, but you know, it used to be a company that, that achieves a billion dollars in revenues. And I think it's market cap, which is the lowest standard. And there's only, if you go by revenues, you know, for a new business to achieve a billion dollars in sales is, it's a very small number. It's a very, very small number, which is why they're called unicorns out of the millions and millions and tens of millions of businesses that exist. And I think a lot of young entrepreneurs, you know, they, they look to Silicon Valley

• 12:02Simon Sinek?

  as their model and they look and they, you know, the ambition is, is the IPO and the ambition is wealth and the, you know, and so it's very rare to hear a CEO, to hear a founder say, I, I want to build a hundred year business. When did that idea come and why did that idea come? Like, why, why build a hundred year business? Why not build, you know, twenty years? Why not just, you know, Steve Jobs even said like, when I leave, if Apple collapses, who cares? You know?

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I don't know.

• 12:35Simon Sinek?

  Those weren't his exact words, but.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  I don't know where the idea came from. I, I think it's a lot, lots of different things. I think I've always been, the, the thing that really, I really enjoy is obviously speaking to customers, building a great brand and really focusing on the product. I just, I just love those three things. And that, if you said to me, what is your perfect week? It would be that. It would be at a Jim Shark event with the community, with the athletes, talking about the product, you know, it would be that sort of thing. I, I also think maybe it's as the businesses continue to grow, you, you definitely, you know, you look around and you think, what, you know, what, what are we trying to achieve here? What are we, what are we trying to build? And I think, I also look back to probably the first job I ever did. So when I was a teenager, I did work experience with my granddad and we, I worked with him a fair bit.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  We would go around the Midlands where we are today and we would line furnaces. So we'd line furnaces with brick, with ceramic fibre and, you know, there were long days. But in those long days, you would end up just, just talking and, you know, I learnt so much from him. I learnt all about, you know, taking risks, taking business risks from him. He was a, he's a one man band, he still works today. So I think I learnt a lot from him and he taught me a lot about being really grateful to have work. You know, I think a lot of people certainly around here, you know, don't always have work. So I think being in a job that I really love and having so much to do, I think is an absolute blessing and I feel so fortunate to be in this position. So I think there's a bit of that.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  I think as well, I sort of looked at what we're building and I sort of recognised that it is quite unique. We're so branding and community focused, there aren't that many businesses in our, that have the opportunity that we now have. So I think it's a bit of that, but I'm not really sure. But the one thing I have known, sort of as this hundred year brand vision has sort of come to fruition in my mind over the last few years, that it's definitely changed the way that I think about things quite a lot. It's, it's changed the way that we think about our brand, the way that we think about our product development, even the way that we think about hiring. And again, I don't know exactly where it came from. I think it's just, I, I know I've been inspired by lots of businesses local to here. So if you think within just a few miles of where we are now, you've got Jaguar Land Rover down the road. Land Rover is an incredible brand.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  It's a brand that I've been around literally my entire life. I love Land Rovers. I love the authenticity of their products and I love that they build the best off roaders. I, I love the fact that they build the best off roaders since the nineteen forties when they were founded, still to today. I think that's really inspiring. You've got Cadbury in Bournville as well, which is, which is a chocolate brand out of the UK. And I think seeing those brands that have really stood the test of time is really, really cool to me. So I think it's a combination of lots of things. It's lots of things of being really happy in the job I do and loving it, the opportunity of the brand that we've got and then being inspired by, being inspired by other people that have done a similar thing.

• 15:22Simon Sinek?

  Hold on, let me go down that rabbit hole a little bit. Again, I'm going to go back to sort of what entrepreneurs, young entrepreneurs, sort of what their models are. And they're looking at the companies that had the exit, they're looking at the company that went public, they look at the company that, you know, that, that's, that's their model. And you're talking about the companies you admire, you know, Cadbury's is what, a hundred years old or plus, you know, it's a very old company and they're still making chocolate, you know, that's, that's still their thing. And Land Rover, that iconic Land Rover, you know, yes, they've done things on the side here and there for different markets, but they've always had that core.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  All four by fours.

• 15:58Simon Sinek?

  You know, that four by four is, is their bread and butter. And they've never veered from it. And as you said, it's like, we do one thing, we do one thing really, really well and we can do stuff on the sides, but we'll never abandon this. But the, how did you come to it? Is it just because you grew up in Birmingham? Is it, is it, like, how did you come to use as your model for the kind of company that you want to build, these iconic brands, but they're not just iconic, they're old?

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I think it's, I think it's a combination. I think, again, the more I thought about it, even just selfishly in terms of me, I love my, I love the job that I do and this is, this is all I want to do. I don't want to, I've got no ambitions to be doing anything else. And if I wasn't doing this, I would, I would be basically doing something that's very similar to this. I saw a, I saw a video of Mark Zuckerberg the other week and someone asked him, I think it's quite an old video, someone asked him, you know, you get loads of money for it, you just sell it, you can go and do something else. And I think his response was, he said that he did a lot of thinking about it and he, he, he came to the conclusion that if he did sell it, he would just use the money to start something that looks a lot like what he was doing then or a lot, a lot like Facebook.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  And I sort of feel like I'm in a similar position. But I also think there's a level of, if you're building for the long term, or sorry, if you're building anything in general, there's a level of separation that you have to have between your personal ambitions and your, your ambitions for your business. I think that's two slightly different things.

• 17:21Simon Sinek?

  Say more.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Well, so when, and this, I learnt this years ago in my early twenties, the, the business started to grow really quickly. And I very quickly realised that I wasn't the right person to be the CEO and run the business for that period, for that, that specific period of growth. So brought in a CEO called Steve who did a really, really good job and that was really great for me because he would do the CEO job and I could then go in and spend so much time on brand, on product. I was travelling the world, going to events around the world, spending time in the gyms with the consumer, building product in the factories, working with athletes, brand teams and marketing teams. And I could do all the bits that I was really good at, but then I could also learn operations and finance and supply chain

• 18:07Speaker 01

  and bits that maybe wasn't quite as exciting to me, knowing that I sort of always had that safety blanket or that sort of cover with having a CEO that could then help fix any of the problems that I had, sort of thing. And I liken it to, I could go into the finance department and I could make a thousand mistakes and know that between the CFO and Steve as the CEO, they would sort of fix those mistakes. But that meant that I had a period of rapid learning and it's almost like being able to do, if I said, Simon, you do this exam and you did it and you got 50%, and then a week later I said, I'm going to give you the same exam and you can do it again, then the week later you might get 60% and then 70%. And you can just keep learning at a rate and have a better output, you know, just because you're doing it over and over again and there's no consequence of failure within reason.

• 18:52Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  So that was important to me because then I quickly learned that even though I have ambition, you know, I'd love to run the company, everyone wants to run their own company. There's almost, I guess to a degree, there's nothing worse than not running your own company.

• 19:04Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  But I realised that because of my ambitions for the business, I wanted the business to succeed more than I wanted to be the CEO.

• 19:12Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Then that then pay back in dividends because the business grew far more quickly. I could learn more quickly. I enjoyed my job. Steve enjoyed his job. And, you know, now I moved back into the CEO job three years ago, I think it was, four years ago. And I feel so much more well-equipped to do the job.

• 19:26Simon Sinek?

  And the reason you came back is not because Steve was doing a bad job. The reason you came back is because you got the education you needed to have the job that you wanted but weren't prepared for.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Correct. Yeah, yeah. So it was that. I had learned on the job, which was great. Steve came to me and he was, his self-awareness was incredible. He said, I'm, you know, I don't want to run the business at the, you know, at the next scale or I don't feel like it's right for me to run the business at the scale that it is now. And he actually said to me, we were working away in Hong Kong, I remember, he said to me, it's not right for me to run the business in the next phase. And I was like, oh God, so who's going to do it then? And then he said, he was like, I think you can do it. And I thought, oh God. And I don't think I really responded. I said, we flew home, I don't know how long the flight is, or eight or nine hours or whatever. And then I think it was the next day or two, I said, yeah, I'm going to do it. I feel, I don't necessarily feel ready,

• 20:17Speaker 01

  but I'm going to, I'm going to do it because, you know, it felt like the right time for me to do it. So I think, again, having real bold ambitions for the business, but then also being really realistic about your own skill set is quite important to me. And yeah, and then I guess through those years as CEO, I then was thinking what, I sort of, then I started to think more critically about what do I want this brand to be and where do I want it to go, where do I want it to go? And I think, you know, getting a bit older, we've got three kids now, you know, everyone, everyone wants to be a cool dad, right? And I think there's nothing cooler than building something that really stands the test of time that the kids can look at and go, oh, well, you know, my dad built

• 20:58Speaker 01

  that or, you know, the Gymshark team built that. And I think that to me, this, I don't know, I've just got a real admiration of brands that can really stand the test of time. There are so many brands that come out of nowhere and explode and then they disappear, but there are very few that really stand the test of time. And I'd love for Gymshark to be one of the few that does stand the test.

• 21:16Simon Sinek?

  I've met a lot of founder CEOs who did have an exit and they've moved on. And sometimes they start something new, sometimes they don't. And their companies, whether they're become public or whether they get bought by some private equity firm, they, you know, some of these highly, highly ethical CEOs who built a company to have an impact in the world and be, build strong cultures that, you know, are great places to work. I bring them their companies in their current states and I say, look at what your company's become. It's doing unethical things. It's not a great place to work. They've changed the ingredients of the products that they're not pure anymore.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:55Simon Sinek?

  I thought you cared so much about impact and clarity and great place to work. This is, this was your company.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:04Simon Sinek?

  And they all are able to rationalise it away.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:07Simon Sinek?

  Well, you know, it was good while it was and while I was there and, but basically what they did is they took the money.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:14Simon Sinek?

  You know? And, and again, there's a, there's a, there's a reason why you're one of my favourite CEOs. And I'm not a hardcore gym rat. Like, yeah, I go, but you know, I'm not your, I don't think I'm your core Gymshark customer, but I'm absolutely in love with your company because I preach these models of infinite mindedness and that, and that committing to something bigger than yourself and ensuring that it can outlast you in its current form is very rare. And the reason I wanted to have you on here and the reason I was so glad that you said yes, is because you're not an 80-year-old former CEO going,

• 22:58Simon Sinek?

  in my day, this is how we ran companies. You're a young CEO running a very, very popular company that is beloved by your employees and your, and your mentality of how to run that business and the way you, and the way you're trying to build it are completely opposite than what is considered, I would say, normal, standard. And I think that the reason I'm rooting for you so much is that if you succeed and you share with people different ways to make decisions based on having this 100-year mentality, my hope is that your model of building a business becomes standard again. You know, where building these short-term companies where you're only driven by the quarter becomes something we read about in the history books or those, those become the minority.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:44Simon Sinek?

  You know, you shouldn't be special.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:46Simon Sinek?

  Because as you said, Cadbury's and Land Rover and some of these iconic brands, they've done something differently.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:53Simon Sinek?

  And something that's important and something worth protecting and holding on to. Decision-making. You, you said before we turned on the cameras, you said, since I decided to build a 100-year company, it's changed the way I make decisions, it's changed the way I hire. Can you share more about what that lens has done for you and what kind of decisions you would have made that you're making differently now?

• 24:15Speaker 01

  I guess product would be the most obvious one. So again, as you grow, it's so easy to get tempted to, and we did this for a bit, right? So we built, we broadened our product range massively. And the whole idea is the broader the product range, the more people that you can appeal to and obviously the bigger you can build the business.

• 24:32Simon Sinek?

  And what do you mean by broader product?

• 24:33Speaker 01

  So as in, we could offer sportswear and swimwear and hiking wear and all these different things and lots of different things that sort of come out and are closely associated to but not quite the same as gym wear.

• 24:44Simon Sinek?

  And people were asking for it, right?

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So if we go on the website, there are lots of searches for a lot of these different things.

• 24:49Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  But what we've since done is we've launched the, you know, our new sort of campaign, which is We Do Gym. And we've said, we're just going to be the best at gym wear and we're going to focus solely on building the best gym wear in the world, not by going into all of these different things. And I think, going back to some of the big brands is, they're, they're really good at what they do. There's, you know, Nike are probably the best, well, they are the best sportswear brand in the world and we're never, ever, ever going to out-compete them on that. And also, it's not my personal passion. My personal passion always has been the gym since I was 16. I fell in love with the gym and I fell in love with the gym because it was the first thing in my life where I directly got out of it what I put in. And I knew that if I, I went to school and I try really hard at certain subjects and I get terrible grades, I wouldn't try other subjects and I'd get

• 25:35Speaker 01

  good grades. And the whole input to output thing just didn't quite make sense to me until I was 16. And I then realised, if I go to the gym five days a week, if I, you know, if I'm on the treadmill, if I'm lifting weights, whatever it is, I will get out of that what I put in.

• 25:50Simon Sinek?

  It's a one-to-one ratio.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  And that's really, that was really important for me as a moment. So I'm really passionate about the gym. We're really passionate about the gym. So we're going to focus on the gym. That's it. That's where our consumer is. That's where our product should be designed around. That is our, that's our USP. That's our competitive advantage and that's what we're really good at. Now, obviously, there's more to it, right? So when the brand was first started, we, we'd grown up in the UK, we would buy like t-shirts, Topman 2 for £10 t-shirts was just a thing. So two t-shirts for £10 was amazing. So affordability is really important for us.

• 26:22Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Because when you're joining the gym, you don't want to be spending loads of money on really expensive stuff.

• 26:26Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  You want really good quality and you want it to perform, but equally you don't want to have to pay loads and loads of money. So affordability is really important for us. We have to build affordable product for our consumer and it has to be the best gym wear in the world. And if we do those three things, everything else then tends to fall into place as long as we're thoughtful about our business.

• 26:44Simon Sinek?

  So you were tempted to go in all these directions, swimwear, hiking, all of these things.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  But we said, no, we're just going to focus on.

• 26:49Simon Sinek?

  So, and you said, but you did try those things, right?

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:53Simon Sinek?

  You did start expanding your product line.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 26:55Simon Sinek?

  But...

• 26:56Speaker 01

  And then we ended up just basically having a longer tail, basically. So we had lots of products that would sort of sell less, basically. So we was proportionately sold more. The business obviously continues to grow, but then rather than selling 50 of two products, we were selling, you know, 10 of, 10 of 10 different products. So it's, we were selling a similar amount, but, you know, across lots of different things. And then...

• 27:20Simon Sinek?

  Isn't that, isn't that a good business? Isn't that what everybody, every company wants to sell more of everything? You know, traditional business would say, ah, that's sticky because now our customer wants our hiking gear and they want our swimming gear and they want our, you know, gym gear. Look, we're creating stickiness.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Because I think the second, there's, there's consequences and to us the consequences are, the brand is watered down. And then also what you've got is you're splitting your sort of reason to believe for a product across lots of different things. And it's interesting, we launched a product about a month ago, two months ago. It's our, it's what we call our Onyx product. It's the most extreme Gymshark product that you can possibly sell. It's, it's a thick, seamless product. It's all around bodybuilding. It's all, it's a men's product, all around accentuating your physique. The the audience size for that is one, you know, one percent of that in hiking or in lots of different, lots of different things. It was by far the biggest launch that we've ever done. We had over four hundred thousand people sat on the website waiting to buy this product.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  And you would look at it and you would think, most people I know probably wouldn't wear this product, but it's because we were speaking to our core, core audience, the lifter, the bodybuilder, that wants to really accentuate their physique, wear the Gymshark logo, seamless tight fitting product, and it's a, it's an incredible product, it's a brilliant product that we're so proud of. But it is a very niche product. And again, what we found is, we win, or we do the best, and we, I guess, build the most clarity with our customer, is when we just focus on doing what we're really good at, and not trying to be similar to everyone else.

• 28:47Simon Sinek?

  So you did expand, you went to hiking and swimming and all that, but then you contracted, you, you closed all those down?

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, we said, we're gonna do gym wear really well, and then we basically narrowed the product range massively.

• 28:56Simon Sinek?

  And what is the benefit of selling fifty of one versus, or fifty of two versus ten of ten?

• 29:03Speaker 01

  So, well, one, it's really focused on the gym, which we, which is what we want to be.

• 29:07Simon Sinek?

  But I mean, you aside, like, as a business concept.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Oh, so, well, you get far better economies of scale with suppliers, which means you get, you get more purchase leverage, you can obviously work more closely on the product, so you've got, you'll have a higher quality of products, I would say, so, you know, if you need ten developers to build ten products, you need five to build five, so it's, you then get far more economies of scale and efficiencies through the business, and you've got your entire business focused on something that's really specific. So it's not only, you don't get, you only get brand benefits, you build a better product, you have a more efficient and effective business, and it's, everyone's marching in the same direction.

• 29:42Simon Sinek?

  This is genius. Here's the analogy, it just occurred to me now, because even me, like, my knee jerk reaction is, if you can sell ten of ten, and you can expand, my goodness, you can all these new customers. But the analogy is, I hate restaurants that have very big menus, because how can you make all of these dishes taste good? There's just no way. You have ingredients sitting in the fridge for too long, there's just no way, right? And the best restaurants in the world have quite small menus.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:12Simon Sinek?

  You know, there's a very limited selection because they have a limited amount of very high quality ingredients, and so this is what you're saying, which is, this is your menu, it's a small menu, and that way, I can, I can absolutely guarantee that this would be the best food you've ever eaten, the best product you've ever had, because I am not distracted, and I don't have to try and sell, because I've got excess, you know, merchandise sitting over there, I've got excess chicken that I gotta push the chicken before it goes, before it goes off. It's exactly the same, it's a small menu.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  And I think, and then, to your point then on that, if we've got a narrow product range that is really focused around gym, it means we can better leverage our finite resources to be in the best in the world at that.

• 30:51Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  But then, I guess, the second order consequences of that are, or looking to build a hundred year brand, is then, the people that are involved in Gymshark are really focused on that. And then when you think about hiring, if you're hiring for a short term goal, if we're hiring just to get to X by three years, then you'll hire, you, I, I've found that you're far more likely to hire externally, and you'll always then bias towards, have they done it before? I need someone that's done what I wanna do before externally, hire them in, can you do what you did there here? When I think about building a hundred year brand, I don't want people to come in, particularly, you know, into leadership or senior teams, I don't want people to come in for three years, do what they've done somewhere else to do it here. I want people to join for ten, twenty, thirty years, I want people to build a career here,

• 31:35Speaker 01

  and to be really focused around the long term of the business, and to really put the business first, rather than just this be a stepping stone on, in their career. So, you've got product effects, you've got sort of hiring effects, and then if you think about our brand, the We Do Gym campaign is perfect, it's three words, but it says exactly what Gymshark is, it's all about the gym. And then, for us, then, it's not about, we do gym, we do this, we do that, it's literally we do gym, and we wanna land that message as regularly as possible, so that it's really clear as to what we are.

• 32:04Simon Sinek?

  But going back to the hiring practices, right? And again, you know, we're having a problem in X, I'm gonna hire somebody who's done this before, I've made this mistake, I've hired somebody who's done it before, they come into our culture, and I'm like, okay, you've done it, please do it, and it, it rarely works well, because they try and force us to do things the way their old company did it, not, you know, or, or, there's an insecurity, right? Because their whole sense of self-worth is, I have to repeat that, and their desire to push their boundaries, do things differently, challenge themselves, throw out the playbook, is dramatically reduced, because they have to repeat their success.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:41Simon Sinek?

  But their success is the past. There's a great story, you might appreciate this, I, I got a tour of Apple, and the Apple historian took me around, and he was telling me, like, you know, they've hired some remarkable people, like, this person invented this for Google, and this person invented that for Facebook, and now they all work at Apple, and they walk around with these inflated egos, and then sit in meetings and go, I don't think you know what I did at Google, and somebody invariably at Apple will lean forward and say, um, we don't care what you've done, we care what you're gonna do. How do you hire young people where, you know, culturally, it's much more acceptable to bounce from job to job to job? Are you very clear that, you know, we wanna hire somebody who wants to stay for a long time? Do you, like, do your young, do your youngest employees find themselves working here for

• 33:26Simon Sinek?

  four, five, six, seven years, and they can't believe they've been here longer than any of their, have held a job longer than any of their friends?

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're definitely seeing more of that. I think this is a transition that we've made in the last two years, so we're starting to move through that, and we're definitely seeing that. The other thing that we've noticed is, um, we, we're sort of in a way bringing more in-house than what a lot of other people would do as well. So, I don't know, if you saw over the road, we've got a full sampling facility, and we've got great technical expertise here, now, a lot of other people would just outsource all that and just give that to factories, but it's really important to us, whilst we work really closely with our partners, that a lot of the sampling, a lot of the development, a lot, a lot of our innovation projects.

• 34:01Simon Sinek?

  I saw you have like a mini factory across the street.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  And it's, but we wanna own that internally. And again, if you were doing it purely on a short term P and L, you wouldn't run that, because that, if you took all that cost out, then obviously that would just increase profitability. But for us, the profitability that we have is there to be reinvested into the long term future of the business, and it's really important for us to have genuine product developers and technical experts in-house, rather than outsource that, because that's our, that's our, our most powerful asset, right, is our people, but our technical ability to build our product.

• 34:31Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  And I don't wanna be constantly outsourcing some of the most special things of our, of our brand.

• 34:37Simon Sinek?

  You told me a lovely story about your, your grandfather, that at the end of every year, he calls you up and asks you one question.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:45Simon Sinek?

  Did you make any money this year?

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:48Simon Sinek?

  And if he, all you have to do is say yes.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, he would never ask how much, just say, did you make any money this year? Yeah, well done lad, that's it.

• 34:55Simon Sinek?

  Clearly, you have financial goals, I mean, you're a sophisticated company.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:59Simon Sinek?

  If you've missed that financial goal, but you're profitable, are you happy, or are you angry?

• 35:03Speaker 01

  I think it depends. Again, in the last few years, because we've been changing our strategy and the way that we wanna approach things, I, I think if, if we're moving in the right, right direction, which we absolutely are, then I'd be happy. I think it's really important to me to remember that forecasts are forecasts, forecasts are a, you know, it's a best guess at where you're gonna be, generally at the start of the financial year, and we'll reforecast as we go through the year. The important thing for me is, did we stick to doing what we said we were gonna do in the really important parts of our business that matter? So did we continue to nail that We Do Gym campaign? Did we continue to really invest into our product in the right way? Um, you know, is the shape of our business where we want it to be?

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Have we had that really nice, incredible new product development, which we're really proud of? Those are the things that really matter. Now, what you can't do is then just completely alienate yourself from all financial results, because that, that would not build a one hundred year, long term, sustainable business. I think, by definition, to be a long term, hundred year business, you have to be profitable, because profitability allows you to invest in the long term of the business, but it also insulates you from all of the inevitable macroeconomic surprises that will come up.

• 36:16Simon Sinek?

  But in the, in the, in that infinite minded hundred year mindset, and based on the advice or the question from your grandfather, so long as you're building the business the way you wanna build it, so long as you're following your values, you're sticking to your core, so long as that purity remains, if you miss that projection, but everything's going in the right direction, you're not angry, you're fine.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  As long as we can continue to fund our own growth, build the business, yeah, I wouldn't, so if the profitability.

• 36:40Simon Sinek?

  So when your granddad says, did you make money, and you say yes?

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:44Simon Sinek?

  To some degree, you are okay with that.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  I'm happy, yeah.

• 36:47Simon Sinek?

  The, going back to, um, there's a, I don't wanna call it an irreverence, because I don't think it is irreverent, there's an honesty that I see on the walls here. I mean, I always think a lot of companies waste space in their offices, because they have all this magical space, and they don't use, they don't remind everybody why they're here. There are words all over your office that remind people why they're here, both your values and just these nice sort of reminders, but they're not, they're not sweet, you know? They're reminding people, take care of the people in the gym, you know, uh, one of them says, give a shit, it's one of your values, it's just very honest, and it's written, it's no asterisks, it says, give a shit on the wall.

• 37:29Simon Sinek?

  In fact, right behind us, I love this one, right behind us, you can't see it, it says on the wall, it's the only thing written on the wall in big letters, it says, don't be a dickhead.

• 37:39Simon Sinek?

  And it's reminding everybody, like, this is how you show up at work.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:43Simon Sinek?

  I mean, this is their office and it says, don't be a dickhead.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:45Simon Sinek?

  Like, where does that come from?

• 37:50Simon Sinek?

  Because a lot of people, I think, they say those words, but they would never write them on the wall.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's a few things. So we, so we, there's four things that we sort of build ourselves around when it comes to our values and the way that we work. One is hard work. And again, going back to.

• 38:03Simon Sinek?

  To the gym.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, going back to the gym, going back to what it's like building a business where, you know, it is, it's incredibly hard work. And to build a business in the way that we want to, it is hard work. And I think it's important to recognize that. One team, again, go back to what you said on the, in terms of what it says on the wall, one team is really, really important. That's not your function. That's not your department. That's the entire business. We've got community first as well. Everything that we do is all around serving our community. That's the most important thing. The reason that we build product, the reason that we build events, the reason that we build a brand is to serve the customer and the community in the same way that I was, you know, you know, when I was a kid and I first joined the gym, that's what Gymshark is there for.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  And then humility as well. Humility is really, really important because I think humility then allows us to be always learning. And again, us getting to where we are today has been because of so many failures and things that, you know, we haven't always been focused on building a hundred year brand, whereas now we really are. And I think it takes that humility to recognize when you're not going in the right direction in order to get yourself.

• 39:05Simon Sinek?

  Can you tell me a specific story where when you look back now, you're like, we, I don't know what I was thinking? And I would never make that decision now. And are you able to look back and say, here's why I made that incredibly bad decision?

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Oh, God, yeah, loads.

• 39:19Simon Sinek?

  Give me one specific one that if you look back now, it's a little bit embarrassing that you chose it. And you were so confident in that choice in the moment, but it was misdirected for all the wrong reasons.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think one that wouldn't be. So we've made loads of sort of operational mistakes. So I'll give you, I'll, I'll give you a good one. And this is probably more specific to being a British business. So most of our, most of our business, most of our customers in the United States.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  And we've had incredible growth in the US. And I'm so lucky, right? Since the business started, since I was in my late teens, early twenties, I've been going to the US constantly. And I absolutely love it there. And I feel so lucky every time I'm there. And there was a period about five or six years ago where everyone said, if you want to win in the US, you've got to open up an office out in the US and you've got to give, give the US that freedom to run the brand in the way that they think is right to grow in the US. Which I think to a degree is right, but obviously me being probably more higher propensity to risk as an entrepreneur. I was like, yeah, let's do it. Go on, let's open up the office, let's build the team, let's give them the freedom and they can just run with it.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  And I made a few hires that were wrong. I hired people that had come from bigger businesses that maybe weren't as attuned to the entrepreneurial way that I thought that we wanted to, to build.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  And then we started to go into, like what we said earlier, sportswear and all of these different things. And all of a sudden, the product then looked very different, the brand looked very different. And there was a point where I remember me and Noel, who's our chief of brand, we went to the US. And Noel put on the screen and he said, this is Gymshark in the UK. And I looked at it and I thought, wow, that looks great. That's Gymshark through and through, bodybuilding, lifting weights and, you know, people in the gym. And then he went, this is Gymshark in the US. And it was a guy, uh, who's playing football. And he just didn't look like Gymshark to me. He almost looked like Nike with a Gymshark logo on. And what we'd done is I'd given far too much freedom for essentially the American team to build out the, the business in a way that they thought was relevant in the market.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  And I felt so bad because I thought I've just completely done this wrong. And what we've actually learned is a real centralized control of brand in particular and products globally. Because our brand and product needs to be relevant globally, not different in different markets. With a more nuanced sort of, uh, commercial approach. So in the US, you know, we were probably going to open up more stores as an example. Whereas in the UK, we'll be more e-commerce focused because it's a far smaller country. And pretty much everywhere in the UK, you get next day delivery. So we're not, we don't need as many stores. And I've done it the wrong way around. I'd been tight on the commercial approach. And then I've been really open on the go to market brand. And it meant that the brand looked completely different. And basically what we had to do was completely re look at the entire office. We actually ended up moving the office to New York and we just completely started again.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  We probably lost eighteen to twenty four months just because of that mistake. And I'd just been, I just hadn't thought it through enough. And I think, again, with the learning for me there is, given how important the brand is to a business like ours, to be so relaxed about it was such a huge mistake.

• 42:25Simon Sinek?

  Are there entrepreneurs now that you sort of, I won't say model yourself after, but you look to and be like, I, I, you know, formal and informal mentors?

• 42:37Speaker 01

  I'll always, obviously, my granddad. My granddad, when he started his business, he, he basically had to risk everything. And he had two kids, my mom and, uh, her sister, her sister has, um, my auntie has learning difficulties. So there's a level of cost with her care.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  My granddad was working in factories, BSA factories in the Midlands and things like that. So he took a massive risk to start his business. It was actually that, it was hearing as a kid about the risks that he took that made it so easy for me to start businesses when I was a kid. Because he was telling me about all these massive risks and he had to look after my nan and the kids. And when I'm eighteen and I didn't have to take, I had no one that I had to worry about really other than myself. That made it, that really made me realize the opportunity I had to take risks. So I definitely learned sort of risk taking from him. Obviously, my parents have been, I've got, I've got such an amazing family. My mom and dad are incredible as well. And I learned so much from them. My mom worked in the NHS her entire life, one of the most hard working.

• 43:38Simon Sinek?

  National healthcare.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  National healthcare. So she was, she was a nurse, coronary care, so a heart nurse. Again, my dad incredibly hardworking and incredibly mental strength like nothing I've ever seen before.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  But then more in terms of industry. So there's a guy who lives in London called Ajaz Ahmed, and he actually founded a company called AKQA, which is a, basically it was a big marketing agency. He's, um, he's since started another agency since. And I learned a lot from him. And he's so brand first.

• 44:10Simon Sinek?

  What did you learn from him?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  I learned, I remember we, um,

• 44:16Speaker 01

  we were doing our first ever restructure of the business. And I remember it was killing me. It was absolutely killing me, the thought of,

• 44:27Speaker 01

  people losing their jobs and having to restructure our business. And it was the right decision in the more appropriate way for the, the sort of post-COVID market that it was at the time. And I remember we went out for food one day and I was like, Ajaz, I'd, like, come on, help me out here. Have you ever done this before? And he, he, and he's the kindest bloke you'll ever meet. And he just gave me some advice and he said, just, just make sure that you do things in the right way. You know, just make sure you do it in the right way. Um, and he actually told me that he'd done a similar thing earlier in his career. And it was the best thing that he'd ever done. And it really helped his business then to grow. Because the way that he described it to me was around, your business needs to move as quickly as the market. And you're in a market that's constantly moving. If you're slower than the market, then obviously things are going to get away from you. You won't be able to effectively serve your consumer.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  And he also was constantly talking about building long-term brands, being in an agency role. He's seen great brands, he's seen not great brands.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  And he sort of really has an enthusiasm for brand that a lot of people don't. And I think a respect for brand that a lot of people don't. So speaking to him and learning about pushing through the hard times, doing things in the right way and really focusing on the long term was really important to me. So I definitely learned a lot from Ajaz. Harley and Toby at Shopify, I haven't seen them in a, in a while, but again, just listening to the way that they think about business is incredible.

• 45:46Simon Sinek?

  What did you learn from them?

• 45:48Speaker 01

  I learned, it was really funny, actually. So years and years ago, they did a competition. And we won the competition because we were one of the faster growing businesses on Shopify, particularly in the early days. And they flew us out to New York to see the stock exchange. That was the first ever media training I had. It was the scariest thing I've ever done. And then we went out to Fiji. And we were sat around loads of incredibly successful entrepreneurs, obviously Toby and Harley were there, there was Tony Robbins and there was a handful of other people. There was the guy from Airbnb, there was Tim Ferriss, I think was there. And I'm just sat looking at all these people thinking, I've seen you on like YouTube on the internet, but I can't believe I'm seeing you in real life. And then I wasn't really saying anything, I was just listening.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  And then I think someone said, someone said, oh, have you got, was talking to someone else and they were like, oh, do you have a plan for that? And he said, no, I'm just winging it. And then someone else went, yeah, I'm just winging it too. And I remember looking around thinking, you guys are running businesses that are probably bigger than our business will ever be. And if you're just winging it, then that makes me feel so much better about myself because I feel like I'm just winging it. And I'm just looking at all these people and I had this moment of realisation thinking, if you're winging it, I'm probably always going to be winging it. And then it made me realise that I don't have to feel like I've always got everything together. There was a recognition around the table that everyone's doing a lot of things for the first time. And there's a level of comfort that then that gave me, that I don't always have to have everything together. I can explore new ideas and I can fail at things and it's not defining of me or nor the business.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  And then we can equally, when you do succeed, that's not defining, it doesn't mean you're always going to be successful. There's this real nice feeling I had where it was almost like pressure off from this moment. I'm doing a lot of things for the first time and I'm just going to try my best to do it right. And I'm going to build a business that I'm proud of.

• 47:35Simon Sinek?

  As you're talking about it, you know, I'm realising there's two types of winging it. And this is, and again, I'm going to sound like a broken record, which is there's a reason I admire the purity of your business, which is it is a, the foundation is so strong, the values are so strong, the clarity of who we are, what we do and who we serve is so strong. That I think when you have strong foundation, strong values, then you can wing it.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:57Simon Sinek?

  Because it's based on, it's not, it's based on something down here.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Quick sand.

• 48:01Simon Sinek?

  You know, it's based on something down here. And so you're making these decisions, but it's coming, it's born out of something and there's a, and there's a code that's guiding those reactive decisions, right? Companies that I think are winging it based on market opportunity, pressure from investors, they're still winging it, but it's not stuck to anything, there's no code, there's no values. And those are the ones who are chasing market share, chasing trends. And they may have little spikes and little short-term successes, they may, you know, you throw enough spaghetti against the wall, some of it does stick.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:35Simon Sinek?

  And, and that may even propel them to be viewed as quote unquote successful because they, they won a lottery on one of those guesses. But it's not sustainable.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:43Simon Sinek?

  You know, you look at a lot of companies that were on the covers of magazines that barely exist anymore.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:48Simon Sinek?

  You know, and they've all been on the covers of all the magazines. So I think there's two types of winging it, you know, there's winging it based on, based on values and based on knowing who you are. And there's winging it, taking your cues, not on, on that purity of our customer and ourselves, but winging it based on, based on an investor or some, some market trend that you're chasing. Because when you were winging it and chasing swimming and hiking, that was externally.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:18Simon Sinek?

  You know.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Whereas now when we're really, it's funny, my, my mom went to, we got a shop in London on Regent Street. My brother took my mom to the shop a few months ago. And they, he said they got to the end, mom went, do you know what, Joe? I'm not, I'm not really a fan a lot of the product that you're making at the moment. And Joe went, too right, you're fifty something, fifty something years old and you've never, you haven't been to the gym in 20 years. And it was a bit, it was a bit of a funny moment where he sort of told my mom and it was like, that, that, that's right.

• 49:46Simon Sinek?

  That's right.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  You know, the, our customer goes to the gym all the time, they're in their early twenties and they want to wear product to show off their physique. We're not building product for my 55-year-old mom, who was a nurse in Telly Oak. Do you know what I mean? So it was quite, that was quite a funny moment. I was quite proud of him because he was a bit like, yeah, this is, this is who we are and this is what we stand for. And I know that's a, you know, a funny sort of extreme example, but that, that's, that's what we have to continue to build our business on.

• 50:12Simon Sinek?

  There's an irony in your brand. And the irony is, is a lot of your clothes, as you said, are made to show off. Like your T-shirt that you said, that's.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Physique accentuating, yeah.

• 50:23Simon Sinek?

  Physique accentuated, it's tight, let me show you the result of all my, my hard work.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:28Simon Sinek?

  You know, I, I've, I've bought your stuff and sized up because it's too tight. Uh, but that's what it's supposed to be.

• 50:38Simon Sinek?

  You know, you can, degrees of how much your bum, you want accentuated, you know? I, I mean, like, it's all about showing off the hard work. But as a company, you're not a show-off company. Reconcile that your products are for showing off, but you don't like showing off. You're the opposite, you're totally humble and sort of on a journey and know you have more to learn, et cetera.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, I think, well, we have product, right? We have the oversized products as well that you could just sort of throw on and you can wear in the winter months where you're just trying to build up your physique. But no, I don't know, I don't know, I think.

• 51:11Simon Sinek?

  If I had to guess.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:13Simon Sinek?

  If I had to guess, I think it goes right back to why you like the gym. Which is, and you said it right at the beginning of this interview, which is, if I do hard work, I will see the results of my hard work.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:28Simon Sinek?

  And I think if somebody's going to spend the time to go to the gym and put in that effort, part of the reward is being able to see what I've done.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:39Simon Sinek?

  And the best way to see it is with a, naked is one way, but.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  With the right product.

• 51:44Simon Sinek?

  But to wear a product that, that you can see my hard work.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:50Simon Sinek?

  Because, I mean, it, there aren't shortcuts.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's, and it's great because we do these events, you should come to one at some point. It's, we've got one, we've got, we've got a couple coming up, one in the UK, one in the US. And you go there and you'd expect everyone to be massive and shredded and bodybuilder, but that, all sorts of physiques. And there's a recognition that if you're in the gym, you're on the journey and everyone's on that journey together. And I really, really like that and it's just a really nice place to be. And again, it's great because that's what I grew up doing. I remember, I remember I went to Body Power in Birmingham, it was the best, it was, I think it was the best fitness event in the world at, in the sort of 2012, 2013 time. I remember being so annoyed because I had to leave the event early to go to my shift at Pizza Hut sort of thing. But it was, it was such an inspiring event for me.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  So yeah, to be able to do this day in, day out, that was great.

• 52:40Simon Sinek?

  I mean, the more we talk about this, the more I realise that your community, I, I, when I started running, or actually not even when I started, when I was a full-on runner,

• 52:51Simon Sinek?

  I would be running around Central Park, I'd be, I'd run around Central Park, you know, whatever it was, three, four times a week. And there was something magical about runners, and I assume it's the same people for Gym Rats, which is I would run past someone who is not in shape. They're really struggling to go at a very, very slow pace, you know? And here we are, we're all, you know, fit and running fast and keeping our pace and all of this stuff. And I, I remember, and to this day, you run past them and you go.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, the level of respect.

• 53:22Simon Sinek?

  You lift your head, you're out here doing the work. And the thing that I loved about that community was nobody thought they were better than somebody else. We were, some of us were in better shape and some of us were in lesser shape. And you said, different shapes, different sizes, but there was such respect that you're out here doing the work. And you got a, you got a head nod. And I remember when I was huffing and puffing, some elite runner would walk past me and give me a head nod, like. And I loved that. The only other time I've seen that, I, I, this is a funny, I, I worked out with the 82nd Airborne. I worked out with the, the, the military, the army. And I remember we were up at the crack of dawn, it was still dark out. And we're up, we're in the, in the car park doing press-ups, doing push-ups.

• 54:08Simon Sinek?

  And he's like gravel, so it's like unbelievably painful on your hands doing, doing push-ups on a gravel. And we're like, do all this work and I'm like, phew, huh, good workout, guys. Turns out that was the warm-up. And then we actually went and did the workout, which was a, a circuit. And you, we had to do the circuit a number of times. And what I found, the, the, it was one of the best workouts of my life and I'll tell you why. Which is absolutely, we're all competing. Like when we were running, guys were pushing hard, right? But nobody was competing against each other, they were competing against themselves, right? Like if somebody who wanted to win, it's not because they wanted somebody else to lose, it's because they wanted to push themselves to be the fastest that day. But I remember guys would run past me and they'd tap me as they ran past me, like, keep it going, keep it going.

• 54:53Simon Sinek?

  And so even in competition, they were pushing and rooting for, for the others. So again, it was pushing themselves, it was, they were trying to, they were competing against themselves, they weren't competing against each other. And it was the most amazing experience with hyper A-type competitive people that wouldn't gloat because they beat you, they would be proud because they won, there's a big difference. But they were pushing everybody else to, to, to run harder, push harder, pull, you know, lift heavier. It was kind of amazing.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  But don't you think that's the sort of thing that would be nice to see more in general business? As in people just trying to build the best business that they possibly can, rather than constantly comparing to a, another business that is similar in one specific way, but different in every other specific way? Because I often see a lot of that, of, oh, Gym Shark have a, I don't know, they're, they're great at e-commerce or they've got a great social following. And, and I think so many people will come and ask me, what, you know, how should I build my business? I, I think so much around, you just need to build your business for you, around what is important to you and around, you know, your community and your customer, rather than trying to build another version of Gym Shark.

• 56:01Simon Sinek?

  And it goes, it goes back to that foundation, right? You've got to know who you are and what you stand for and then you build from there. I don't think you can build a hundred-year business trying to compete or beat somebody else. I think you can only build a hundred-year business trying to do yourselves.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 56:17Simon Sinek?

  What's your approach to managing your time so that you get the most out of your professional and personal life?

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Oh, this has changed, so this has changed a lot since we had kids. So before I would just work all the time and fly whenever, go anywhere at a moment's notice. My wife said to me since we had kids, she was like, I want you home on the weekends. And it's really important to me that I am because I just love being with the kids and being at home with the family and, and Robin. So generally, I'll be at home on the weekends. And again, that's important for me to protect. In the week, I generally really try and focus my time around products and essentially the direct sort of team that I work with. I also just love going, something I love to do more than anything is just to go to loads of different gyms. So if I'm in New York, I'll just try different gyms because you end up just chatting to

• 57:08Speaker 01

  people all the time and you end up learning something that you would never, ever normally pick up. And again, quite fortunate now doing, I guess, doing the job I do because sort of people come up to me as often as I'll come up to them. But I absolutely love that. But no, generally, I'll focus my time around, obviously, being in the office every day. I am not the sort of person that I could ever work from home. But generally, it'll be around being with a team and focusing on the product.

• 57:32Simon Sinek?

  And when you're at home on the weekends, you're not at home just working, you're at home with the family.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will avoid work at all costs on the weekend if I can.

• 57:39Simon Sinek?

  Love. One of the things that's interesting is you have on the wall, family first as one of the values. What can people who are not running companies do to have an impact on the world, but still make sure that they're providing for their loved ones? How do you strike that balance? Because at some points, one of those things has to get sacrificed.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:00Simon Sinek?

  Right? People who make an impact, as you said, aren't necessarily at home all the time.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:05Simon Sinek?

  What can the rest of us do? Do you have to pick one?

• 58:09Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know. I think the thing I've noticed, and this is both with myself, also with friends and colleagues, is if you do a job that you really, really enjoy, you genuinely enjoy, I think you'll often be better at it. And then I think you'll be happier in your general life. And even if you have to, there's periods, I think, where you have to work more, there's periods where you can probably get away with working a little bit less. And I know it sounds cliche, but I do think focusing on what you love. I've got friends that, I've got a friend actually who moved on from here not too long ago. He was one of the first employees who worked here for about 10 years. And he just sort of ran out of mojo. He sort of, we were chatting, he wasn't really enjoying the job as much as he was. And he sort of wanted to be here because he always was, but then he sort of didn't

• 58:54Speaker 01

  because there's a load of other things he wanted to, he wanted to travel, he wanted to do work abroad and stuff. And we were just sat there and we said, go off and do it. Just go off and do it. And you can always come back. You know, if you don't, if you go off and you go and work in Spain for a bit and you don't like it, you can always come back. And that's what he's done. And he seems so happy, he's loving it. And it's really nice to see. So it's, it's an interesting thing for me, whereas the difference in him in making that decision, he's just like a different person, he seems so excited and happy. And, you know, I've got lots of other friends, and don't get me wrong, I'd rather a lot of them have not left. I'd much rather them just be with me and stay here because we're friends and I love being with them. Focusing on what they love is really important. And then there's people that have been here for 10, 11, 12 years, literally since day one, that love it just as much, if not more than they did.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  And I think for me, doing what you love is really important. I think it's interesting because we and I have had some highs at this business that are incredible, being the fastest growing company in the UK, some of the global events that we've done, some of the incredible things that we've done out in the US. And they're genuinely incredible achievements that I'm so proud of. But then when you get home and one of your kids runs up to you and gives you a massive hug and is happy that you're home, it trumps all of them. So I think it's also worth remembering that as well.

• 1:00:17Simon Sinek?

  Ben, it's such a treat for me to sit down with you. I could talk to you forever. And, you know, this is the second time we've hung out and I've learned from you more this time even than last time. I really, really am rooting for you because I think how you're building your business is the way all businesses should be built from now on.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:00:36Simon Sinek?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 1:00:38Simon Sinek?

  Really appreciate it. So good. As always, thanks for listening. And if you liked this episode, please do remember to subscribe to A Bit of Optimism wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday. A bit of-