Revisited: The First Steps To Reducing Your Anxiety with Author Mel Robbins

Happy New Year from Team Simon! We’re so excited to bring you more new episodes of A Bit of Optimism when we return on January 27, 2026. With your support, we’ll make 2026 an incredible year together. In the meantime, we’re revisiting some of our favorite episodes from last year. We kicked off 2025 with a guest most podcast enthusiasts probably have heard of—Mel Robbins. This insightful conversation answers an important question: how do we push through the days where life can feel overwhelming? Especially when we're too drained to even get out of bed. For Mel Robbins, facing this very question turned her life around. Struggling with $800,000 in debt and at rock bottom, she became obsessed with finding practical ways to regain control. Fast forward to today, and Mel is a bestselling author and podcast host who has helped millions transform their lives. In her latest book, The Let Them Theory, she reveals how shedding the weight of others' expectations can help us live more authentically. Simon sat down with Mel to dive into how we can take action when we're emotionally spent, why our need for control ties us to other people's opinions, and how giving others the freedom to be themselves allows us to align with our true values. This… is A Bit of Optimism. --------------------------- For more on Mel and her work, check out: https://www.melrobbins.com/podcast and her book: https://www.melrobbins.com/letthemtheory

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  If your friends don't invite you out this weekend, let them. If the person you're dating doesn't want a commitment, let them. If your kids don't want to go to the flea market with you this weekend, let them. Stop worrying about managing and stressing about other people. Stop forcing them to change. Let people be who they are because they are revealing themselves to you and they're revealing their priorities and what matters to you. And then you get to choose. You get to choose how to respond. And that's where your power is.

• 0:30Simon Sinek?

  I love the way you speak. I've been captivated this entire time, taking in every word. Not agreeing with all of them, but taking them in.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  Let them.

• 0:40Simon Sinek?

  Let them.

• 0:41Speaker 00

  I don't care.

• 0:43Simon Sinek?

  Control freaks, breathe easy. Mel Robbins is here and she's clearing a space to help us let go of our anxiety and help all of us live our best lives. Mel has one of the most popular podcasts in the world and she has a new book called The Let Them Theory, which is profound in the impact it's having in people's lives. Mel is a force of nature and one of my favorite guests that I've ever had on the podcast. This is a bit of optimism.

• 1:19Simon Sinek?

  So, one of the things that you and I have in common is that it's amazing that we're still around.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  Who the hell are you calling old, son?

• 1:32Simon Sinek?

  Given, no, no. Given that, given that the work that we did on TED that sort of helped the world know what we were thinking about the world was many years ago.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:44Simon Sinek?

  Yours, 13 years ago, right?

• 1:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48Simon Sinek?

  Mine, 15 years ago.

• 1:49Speaker 00

  15?

• 1:50Simon Sinek?

  I know, painful.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  So you're the dinosaur. I'm the younger one.

• 1:55Simon Sinek?

  Yes.

• 1:56Speaker 00

  At least in TED years.

• 1:58Simon Sinek?

  At least in TED years. And did you know that your work would resonate as loud as it has? Would you be able to...

• 2:07Speaker 00

  Are you kidding me? So, so literally, let me give you the backstory. So it is 2011.

• 2:17Speaker 00

  And my husband is in a failing restaurant business.

• 2:21Simon Sinek?

  That sounds like all restaurant businesses.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Yep, we have liens on the house and we're 800 grand in debt.

• 2:26Simon Sinek?

  Okay, that sucks.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  Oh, it sucks, all right. Three kids under the age of 10, friends and family have invested.

• 2:31Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  And I am scrambling to make money however I can, to put gas in the tank and groceries on the table. And a couple of years prior, I had created this little thing that I call the five-second rule, which is this technique of counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one, to launch yourself through an excuse, or doubt, or anxiety, or whatever, and just do what you need to do.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  And I invented it to help me get out of bed on those mornings when the anxiety was so crushing that I couldn't get out of bed. And so I would five, four, three, two, one, get out of bed. And I started using this little countdown thing to push me through all the excuses and take all the little actions, one by one, that slowly put my life back on track. But I got a phone call from a friend of mine from college, who said, "Hey, there's this person putting on this thing out in San Francisco, and they're looking for somebody who has changed their career a lot." And she said, "I thought of you." She said, "They're offering two plane tickets and two nights at the St. Regis.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  And Simon, when you're $800,000 in debt, that sounds like a vacation." And so I said, "Sure." Now, keep in mind, I'd only taken a speaking class, like a public speaking class, in high school. I was not a professional speaker. I had never stood on a stage in front of an audience and delivered any kind of keynote, but I wasn't thinking about that. Because I was thinking about, "Okay, I'm gonna get to San Francisco. Chris and I are gonna have a couple of days away from our kids. This is gonna be amazing." I get there, and it's like, "Oh, my God, I gotta give a speech? I forgot about this part." So when you watch my TEDx talk, you are literally witnessing a 21-minute-long panic attack. If you look closely a minute in, you will notice I have this gigantic neck rash

• 4:26Speaker 00

  that people get when they drink too much, or they have anxiety. I'm darting around the stage, in and out of the spotlight, and around minute 19, I forgot how to end it. And I couldn't remember how I was supposed to end it. And so I blurred out the five second rule, which I had never shared with anybody except for my husband. And at the end of saying, oh, there's this thing I do, I call it the five second rule. The moment you have an instinct to act, you gotta move within five seconds. Your brain kills your motivation to act. Thank you very much. And then I said, and if you have any questions, here's my email address. And I walked off stage. And that was that. And a year went by. And then TEDx put it online. I didn't even know it was online.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  And another year goes by. So I'm now in my life. We're paying our bills. My marriage is back on track. I'm still using five, four, three, two, one in my own life. And all of a sudden emails start coming in to that email address. And it's from people around the world who were using the five, four, three, two, one countdown technique to do amazing things. And I would stay up late at night after working all day, answering strangers' emails. Because I felt this obligation to respond to people because they were using something. I never, ever thought that it would be anything other than a couple nights in San Francisco.

• 5:52Speaker 00

  And I look back on it now, and I think there are these moments in your life when you look backwards, where you say there was something so much bigger happening. And I didn't realize it. And that was one of those moments.

• 6:05Simon Sinek?

  Well, it's an amazing thing because now the five second rule is a thing.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  Oh, it's massive.

• 6:09Simon Sinek?

  And, and the thing that I think is wonderful is you've contributed to the zeitgeist like that people don't even know that it's you.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 6:17Simon Sinek?

  It is now part of, it is now woven into the vernacular.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 6:22Simon Sinek?

  And people recommend it to each other to say it, they know what it is. And, and it doesn't matter if your name is attached to it. The point is, is you've made a contribution to people in a way that like the idea that you can, you can mechanically produce something that will tap into the zeitgeist and take off, I think is false. I don't know if that's possible. And I think the things that your work, my work, they were, they're accidents. They're accidents. They're, you know, looking back, I think we can both say, I understand why it resonates. Cause it was born out of reality. It wasn't born out of a, I read an opportunity, I read a thing in a magazine, you know? It was born out of something you needed to do something that you were struggling with,

• 7:07Simon Sinek?

  that clearly other people were struggling with the same thing.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 7:10Simon Sinek?

  Which is, how do I motivate? How do I get out of bed? How do I do these things?

• 7:12Speaker 00

  How do I do the things I know I need to do, but I can't make myself do it?

• 7:15Simon Sinek?

  I don't want to do it, yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:16Simon Sinek?

  And it's so obvious. It's kind of like a little kid standing at, you know, at the deep end going, okay, five, four, three, two, one, and you jump. I mean, it's the same thing.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 7:24Simon Sinek?

  So the question where I started was, could you have predicted what has happened?

• 7:31Speaker 00

  I think you would have to be an arrogant sociopath to think.

• 7:34Simon Sinek?

  But looking back, you can understand it.

• 7:36Speaker 00

  Oh, I understand now.

• 7:37Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  But standing in that moment, I would never.

• 7:41Simon Sinek?

  No, but you can understand now why it connected.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  I do. And, and the reason why it connected is because there is so much information. I personally believe that most people know what they need to do, or you're one Google search away from it.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  But there's not a lot of how. And for me, I'm fascinated by intellectual concepts and philosophy and all this stuff, but I don't know how to apply it. Like, I've always been the kind of person that wanted to let things go, but I never can, because I feel like if I let it go, I'm admitting defeat. And so for me, the experience of sharing one simple thing that helped me during one of the hardest moments of my life, it taught me a number of things. Number one, absolutely everyone who is struggling, and at some point, everybody struggles, everybody feels stuck, everybody feels lonely, you think you're the only one, and you're not. The second thing it taught me is that in life, when things feel overwhelming and complicated,

• 8:44Speaker 00

  the more complicated the solution, the less likely it's going to work. You need something obvious and simple, because when you're already overwhelmed and stuck, you're missing hope, and you're also not able to leverage the full capacity of your brain, because you're stressed out, and you're overwhelmed, and you're up in your head. And so the simpler the idea, the more likely you're going to be able to use it. And the third thing that it taught me is the extraordinary power of ignoring how you feel and forcing yourself to do something.

• 9:21Simon Sinek?

  All right, talk about that one more. Does that, that's?

• 9:26Simon Sinek?

  I have no problem letting myself down.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 9:29Simon Sinek?

  So, for example, I know I need to get back in shape. I know I need to go to the gym. And I'll wake up in the morning and say, like, all right, workout. I got all the workout stuff at home. You know, I don't need to even go anywhere. I'm like, all right. Why you're up early? Why don't you, why don't you work out? And I'll be like, meh.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  You don't feel like it.

• 9:48Simon Sinek?

  Do the crossword puzzle instead.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:49Simon Sinek?

  And, but that's daily.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:51Simon Sinek?

  You know, and, and I don't mind. Like, it doesn't bother me that I let myself down. Like, okay. I don't feel guilt, shame, but if I'm meeting somebody to work out, I will be there 100%.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  Of course. So do you actually want to solve this?

• 10:06Simon Sinek?

  Go on. Yes.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  Well, because people only change when they feel like it. And this does not, to me, sound like a compelling enough reason in terms of your why. And I don't think you're committed to changing it, so I don't think you're gonna do it. If you really wanted to do it, you're a smart enough person that you would solve this problem. See, I think the issue is-

• 10:23Simon Sinek?

  I don't think it's a question of intelligence.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  No, I don't either. I think it's that you listen to your emotions in the moment and you allow them to dictate what you do.

• 10:31Simon Sinek?

  I think it's, I think it's, nah, I think it's, I think it's routine. Like, when you're in a routine, it's hard to get out of it.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  But do you agree-

• 10:40Simon Sinek?

  Like, if I'm working out on a regular basis, it's very hard. So when, I used to run a lot.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 10:44Simon Sinek?

  And when I was running a lot.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 10:47Simon Sinek?

  I just loved running and I was in the routine and I would, I'd like, I'd be, it'd be the afternoon. I'd look at my watch and I'd be like, I don't have a meeting for another hour. I'm gonna go for a run. I would just go for a run. Like, when I, when I was in the routine, I loved being in the routine. And so I'm in the routine of not working out. That's my routine. So I think it's hard to, I think it's hard to change routines.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  True.

• 11:09Simon Sinek?

  And I'm in the routine of not, of not, not doing.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  See, I believe people only change when they want to.

• 11:15Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  And that if you don't feel like doing something, you're not going to. And the truth is that waiting around to feel like doing this.

• 11:25Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Or waiting around for you to be motivated or inspired to break your routine, that's not enough.

• 11:31Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  And it's not a matter of will, it's a matter of skill. And it is a skill in life to be able to feel what you feel and then do what you need to do. You know, one of the most famous taglines in the world is Nike, just do it.

• 11:46Simon Sinek?

  Sure.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  What's the most powerful word of those three words?

• 11:49Simon Sinek?

  The do.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  No.

• 11:51Simon Sinek?

  The just.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  Yes. If their tagline had been, do it.

• 11:55Simon Sinek?

  Oh yeah, you would have hated that. I would have, yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course, because pressure.

• 11:59Simon Sinek?

  It's aggressive.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Well, it's not only that it's aggressive, if you look at basic brain wiring.

• 12:04Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  That type of pressure doesn't motivate. It actually creates resistance to change.

• 12:10Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  Because it is an assault on your fundamental need to control yourself.

• 12:16Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  But the tagline, just do it. Appeals to your humanity. It's acknowledging something we all struggle with, which is that moment of hesitation. That moment of self doubt. That moment where you're standing on the sideline aching to jump in the game, but you are holding yourself back.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  The just is everything. And that's what the five second rule is. It's acknowledging that we all have this habit of hesitating in the small moments, this bias towards thinking. Where we consider how we feel about the thing that we're about to do, instead of doing the small thing that we need to do. And for me, it was the moment of hesitation when the alarm rang. And I knew I needed to get out of bed. I knew I needed to get the kids on the bus. I knew I needed to get a job. I knew I needed to not drink so much. I knew I needed to stop screaming at my husband. I knew I needed to ask for help. I wasn't doing any of it. Because in that moment when that alarm rang. And I knew what I needed to do.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  I stopped and considered how I felt about doing it. And when you stop and consider how you feel, your brain is wired to do what's easy. We naturally move towards it. We are also wired to push away from what feels hard. And the reason why it is so difficult to break patterns is because the patterns that you're in feel easy because you know them. Lying in bed is easy. That's why we do it. Picking up your phone and scrolling on social media. It's easy. That's why we do it. In order to change anything about your life or to replace any pattern in your life, you have to work against basic wiring in your brain. And you have to develop a skill of being able to ignore how you feel and choose to take action even when you don't want to.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  And that's what the five second rule taught me. You know, when I look at the success that I've built and the things that I've done since even the TEDx Talk or that moment in my life 14 years ago, I don't think I'm particularly special. I just did what a lot of people won't do. I got up in the mornings when I didn't feel like it. I did the boring ass tedious grueling crap that needs to get done every day. And I refused to quit. And it is a skill to learn how to feel what you're feeling and then align your action with the thing that you know you need to do that's good for you.

• 14:45Simon Sinek?

  Were you always like this? Were you always A type in like in school? Like what was your, what was your?

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Oh, I was a walking red flag for a long time.

• 14:51Simon Sinek?

  What does that mean?

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Uh, that means that I was like, I struggled with a lot of stuff. I think this is why I'm obsessed with helping like, it's why I'm obsessed with uncovering any kind of shortcut or any kind of knowledge or tool that can help you create a better life or solve a problem. Because I spent so much of my life hurting myself or hurting other people because I just didn't know. I mean, there are so many examples of this from trauma in your childhood to I had dyslexia and ADHD. I had no fucking clue I had those things. And part of the reason why I had no clue is because when they were researching ADHD in the seventies, they only looked at boys.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  And we now know that girls have ADHD just as much as boys. They just have the opposite symptoms. And if you're in a classroom and your brain doesn't learn the way that Public school, or whatever school is asking you to learn, if you don't address dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADHD, what develops on the surface is anxiety. So there are generations of women, I am one of them, who got diagnosed with anxiety in their late teens and early twenties, who were medicated for anxiety.

• 16:06Simon Sinek?

  The wrong thing.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  The wrong thing.

• 16:07Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  And I didn't discover that I had ADHD or dyslexia until I was 47 years old. And you want to know how I discovered it? I discovered it the same way the majority of women discover it. Because one of my kids was going through the process of getting evaluated by a neuropsychologist for school. And as I looked at his profile, I'm like, well, that looks like me. And then I went through it, and lo and behold, it explained everything. I didn't know. And suddenly knowing gave me a completely different vantage point about the things that I struggled with, about the things that I did that I regret, about the opportunities that I squandered. You know, I recently had on our podcast a really incredible guy by the name of Dr. Stuart Ablon.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  He's a psychologist that's been practicing at Mass General Brigham for 30 years. And he had this thing that he said just a week ago that I will never forget. He said, "People do well when they can. And if you're not doing well, or if somebody in your life is not doing well, it's because they can't right now. There's a, there's a skill. It's not a willpower issue. If somebody is expressing challenging behavior, there's typically some sort of skill that is missing. There's a problem underneath the behavior that hasn't been discovered." And so what I've found in my life is that I have struggled silently. I have felt very stuck in patterns of behavior that I didn't feel like equipped to be able

• 17:37Speaker 00

  to replace or understand, which only leads you to feel worse about yourself. Like, how can I keep doing this to myself? How can I keep making the same mistakes? Why am I so damn hard on myself? And so when you don't know what's going on, or you don't understand kind of the, the trap that you're in. Then you have no ability to get out of it. And so for me, it was a revelation to understand that simply counting five, four, three, two, one. It allowed me to not be ruled by emotion. It allowed me to not let the patterns of my past dictate the person I was in the present.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  And when you start to gain that kind of control over yourself, it's liberating. So no, I wasn't always that person at all.

• 18:29Simon Sinek?

  But were you sort of, did you have always have a lot of grit, sort of work hard, school?

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I, I, because I was, I was like super competitive and like a lot of people. I got a lot of positive attention when I got great grades or when the track team won, or when I was elected president of whatever. And so, yeah.

• 18:46Simon Sinek?

  So, so, so it was not that you had the skill of grit and motivation and you lost it? And this five, and the five, four, three, two, one helped you?

• 18:56Speaker 00

  See, I don't think it's an issue of motivation.

• 18:58Simon Sinek?

  Go on.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  I don't, because I think motivation's complete garbage. It's never there when you need it. And that's the paradox of it, is that we're all sitting there waiting to feel motivated.

• 19:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  And it's not coming.

• 19:09Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Because basic wiring of the brain is that you will always default to what's easy. And you always push against what's hard. And if motivation were available on demand, we'd all have a million dollars in six pack abs. And so, sitting around waiting for motivation is the kiss of death. Because it's in the action that you dissipate the emotion. And it's in the action that you actually prove to yourself through the action, because you see yourself operating differently, that you are a different person, that you are not defined by your emotions. I mean, emotions are just chemical reactions that explode within six seconds. And the research shows that if you can learn how to let them rise and fall like a wave, most emotion dissipates in 90 seconds.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  Instead, what we do is we feel it and then we think the emotion needs to guide. Our response to it, and it's actually the opposite. You can choose your response if you understand what emotions are. And I felt trapped and I was a hostage to my emotions all the time. You can either be sunny and you can be a storm cloud. You get to choose. And for a large part of my life, I was violently oscillating between those two things. And learning how to be in control of the actions that you take and learning that you do have agency and that you don't have to wait to feel like it, that you're not going to sit around and wait for motivation, that you're the kind of person that is building the skill

• 20:37Speaker 00

  of doing what needs to get done. And that's an incredible thing.

• 20:42Simon Sinek?

  Do you allow yourself then to feel sad?

• 20:44Speaker 00

  Of course, absolutely, absolutely. But I get to choose how I sit with it.

• 20:52Simon Sinek?

  Give me an example.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  So being sad is a mentally healthy response.

• 20:56Simon Sinek?

  For sure.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  To situations in life.

• 20:58Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  And the thing about it is that there's going to become an amount of time that being in your sadness is helping you process grief, or helping you process heartbreak, or helping you process disappointment. Like for me, the last time, the thing that comes to mind is when we moved, so we lived outside of Boston for 26 years, and then about four years ago, we moved to Southern Vermont. And so at the age of 52, all of a sudden, I'm in this tiny little town and I don't know anybody. I don't have any friends. I was very sad. I was very lonely. And I sat with it for quite a while.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  And I think that I over-indexed on sadness for probably six months too long. And at some point, there's this tipping point with your emotions where you go from needing to process something to truly drowning in it. And that's when I think you need to do something.

• 22:04Simon Sinek?

  Where do other people factor into all this? The idea of asking for help or having a support network? You know, I hear everything you're saying and it's true and inspiring. But where do other people fit into this?

• 22:20Speaker 00

  Other people are everything.

• 22:22Simon Sinek?

  Because, you know, we're social animals and none of this works in a vacuum.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 22:29Simon Sinek?

  So even in your story, at what points would this not have been possible? If there wasn't another person involved? I mean, there's only so many times you can say five, four, three, two, one.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. So five, four, three, two, one changes your relationship to yourself.

• 22:44Simon Sinek?

  Right. You asked me, like, what's the reason you want to be in shape?

• 22:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 22:48Simon Sinek?

  Right? And, you know, and service is the greatest motivator of all. Your family, your friends, whatever it is, the greater good. And I said, I'm okay letting myself down, but I don't want to let other people, I won't let other people down. And I also know that my ability to deal with stress, discomfort, whatever, whenever one needs grit, skyrockets if I have at least one person in my life who says, you got this. They don't have to go on the journey with me.

• 23:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:20Simon Sinek?

  But if I can call them at the end of the day and be like, I'm not so sure. They're like, yeah, I believe in you. And if it all goes south, I'm still going to love you. And then all of a sudden, I'm golden.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 23:30Simon Sinek?

  Where is the person sitting next to you? Like, you were there for your husband, who was going through this debt with you. You know, it's his restaurant, right? I just want to know the role that other people play or need to play.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  They're everything. But here's, here's the thing. So that changed my relationship with myself.

• 23:49Simon Sinek?

  Yep.

• 23:50Speaker 00

  And it made me acutely aware that I'm responsible for creating what I want in life. And I'm also responsible for doing the work to make it happen.

• 24:01Simon Sinek?

  So self-reliance.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the thing that changed everything when it comes to relationships for me is what I discovered two years ago, which I call the let them theory. And the let them theory.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Flipped absolutely everything on its head about the way that I approach relationships. And I've been married for almost 30 years. I have three adult children. I have now a great friend group. And I realize, looking backwards on my life before the let them theory, that I was approaching relationships and approaching other people in the exact opposite way that I should have been. And I think most people are.

• 24:51Simon Sinek?

  For example?

• 24:52Speaker 00

  Well, I think that most of us waste too much time and energy worrying about managing and trying to control other people and change them. And when you learn to let other people be, and you learn to love people as they are, and when you learn to let people heal when they're ready, and when you learn that people are who they are, and people change when they're ready to change and do the work to change, and when you understand that the best way to love somebody is to not try to change them, but to actually see them as they are and see them as they aren't. And then, instead of pouring all the time and energy into trying to fix, manage, worry, change them,

• 25:37Speaker 00

  you just let them and you detach from the control. And then you say the second part, which is let me, let me, instead of controlling them, let me focus on what's within my control, which is, there's only three things that you can control. You can control what you think in response to something. You can control what you do or don't do. And you can control what you are going to do with your emotions. That's it. That's it. And ultimately, as you know, we all have a very hardwired need for control. And when we don't feel in control, we feel unsafe. And every person that you know has the same need for control. And what happens is that in our need to be in charge and in control and to feel safe,

• 26:20Speaker 00

  we end up trying to control things that are not controllable. And number one on the list is trying to control what other people think, trying to control people's emotions, trying to make sure everybody's not disappointed or let down by you. We pour so much energy into that, that we are giving power to other people, and we are creating friction for ourselves and stress for ourselves, and we're creating friction and frustration in relationships. And you don't have to live like that. And so I used to be somebody that was micromanaging my kids, trying to control everything that they did. I had massive opinions about what people should be doing. I bent over backwards to try to make sure people weren't disappointed, or not letting people down, or

• 27:05Speaker 00

  that I matched everybody's expectations. It's absolutely exhausting. And not only that, you actually will never be able to control the thought that somebody is having in their mind. You are never going to be able to control the emotions that somebody feels in response to what you do. And it is not your job to do that. And so, learning to allow people to be who they are, and learning to allow adults to be adults, has created a set of boundaries, and it has also created space for true connection, love, and mutual exchange to happen.

• 27:45Simon Sinek?

  What happened that you came to this theory?

• 27:47Speaker 00

  So, I was at, I can't believe this is where it happened, but I was at a high school prom. And I had gone, now I discover all this life-changing stuff, and this is the single most important thing I've ever discovered, by far. This is the legacy I will leave on this planet. I'm at a high school prom. I have had, mind you, two daughters who have gone through high school prom. So, we have done the dramatic five months of bullshit, picking out the dresses, the spray tans, the limos, like, the craziness. So, I figure, okay, we got this on lock. I know what's gonna happen. I thought Oak was gonna be a breeze. It was the worst, because he didn't know if he was gonna go. He was really nonchalant, so I couldn't get, like, I didn't know what was happening. And then 48 hours before prom, it's like, I'm going. I'm like, oh my God, where are

• 28:31Speaker 00

  we gonna find a tux in Vermont? Like, you want those tennis shoes? Like, it was a last-minute scramble. And so, we get to the night of prom. And we go to the party where we're taking all the photos before prom. And everything is different in Vermont than it was in Boston. So I'm starting to be like, what do you mean? Like, you're driving. Like, you're driving? Isn't there a bus? Like, what? And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, it starts to pour rain. Like, the storms roll in, it's pouring rain. Now, all the parents are kind of milling about. What are you guys doing for dinner? I'm like, you don't have dinner reservations? What do you mean? And Oakley's like, well, I think we're just gonna go to the taco stand. And for me, that was just like the end of it. Like, I'm like, taco stand, rainstorm? You're not going, you're gonna ruin their...

• 29:15Speaker 00

  And I start to just lose it. And my daughter was home from college, and she reaches over and grabs my arm. She's like, Mom, you're annoying, stop it. And I'm like, but, but, but they're gonna get soaked. And she's like, let them. And I'm like, but the restaurant's not... Let them. But he's gonna ruin his... Let them. But her hair, let them. Mom, it's their prom, not yours. Let them do what they want. And there was something about the moment and her saying, let them, in this cascading fashion, that every time she said it,

• 29:57Speaker 00

  it was like a sledgehammer hitting my nervous system. And by the time she said it the last time, let them do what they want. I felt this instant peace. And then it occurred to me, what, why the hell do I care about this? Like, why am I not worried about where I'm meeting? And so I walk up to our son Oakley, and as I'm... He's like, what? You know, because I've been so annoying. I'm like, nothing, dude, here's 40 bucks, go have fun. And you could see him relax. And, you know, they run out the door, and of course, they splash mud right up her dress, and shoes are ruined. Who cares?

• 30:36Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  And so the next morning, I wake up, and I'm at like a garden center, buying some plants. And I'm standing there in line. And you know how you're in line? And there's like five people in front of you, and it's like beep, beep, beep, chit chat for small talk. And then you start to feel the stress rising. And then you start to think, why don't they have another cashier? And you start to get irritated. And now you think that you can run the garden center better than everybody else. And now you're fidgeting and you're looking and you want to turn to the person and you're like, can you believe? Let them. They're doing traffic. They're doing construction on it. Let them. Your mother's disappointed you're not coming. Let her be disappointed. It is extraordinary how often other people's behavior

• 31:22Speaker 00

  or their opinions or what people are doing pisses you off, stresses you out or upsets you. And you have zero control over it. So why on earth would you want to give your precious time and energy to something that you have zero control over? And as I went through my day and, you know, I get home from the garden center and the dog has taken a dump on the like front walk and I'm like, what is? Let them. Like, I can't control it now. Why would I let this now get me? Let them. And it was so interesting to just watch how many times I was pulling this lever. How many times I was allowing things out there to get in here. And this is a really big deal because if you look at burnout,

• 32:07Speaker 00

  if you look at chronic stress, if you look at how overwhelmed people feel right now, how people are, they don't have any time. They're exhausted at the end of the day. I'm here to tell you, if you feel that way, the problem isn't you. The problem is the power you give to other people and things outside your control. And as I started to engage with this like, wow, there I am. I'm like giving power to people's opinions. Oh, wow, I'm worried that that person's in a bad mood at work and it must be my fault. And so I better be extra nice or help them out so that I can. Now, let them be in a bad mood. Why is it my job? That doesn't mean you're not supportive because here comes the second part. Then you say, once you detach, let me. Let me remind myself of my values. And if you're a supportive person, if you're a compassionate person, maybe you are going to offer support.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  But if you're exhausted and you've already spent all this time taking on too much, maybe right now is when you say, you know what? I'm going to let them deal with themselves and I'm going to let me take a step back because that's actually what I need to do based on my values and my priorities. And so I experimented this with this for like three days and I was so blown away by how peaceful I felt. How present I felt, how I wasn't triggered by a particular person in my life who has a kind of narcissistic personality style, because I could just let them be who they are. If your friends don't invite you out this weekend, let them. If the person you're dating doesn't want a commitment, let them. If your kids don't want to go to the flea market with you this weekend, let them.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Stop worrying about managing and stressing about other people. Stop forcing them to change. Let people be who they are because they are revealing themselves to you. And they're revealing their priorities and what matters to you. And then you get to choose. You get to choose how to respond. And that's where your power is. I used to struggle with guilt all the time. I desperately did not want to let anybody down. Didn't want to disappoint anybody. So if the holidays are coming up, my parents live in Michigan. If we're not going to go home to Michigan, they're going to be disappointed. Let them. Because let's think about disappointment. Isn't it good?

• 34:17Speaker 00

  I mean, isn't it a good thing that people want to see you? That they're disappointed that you're not coming home? I mean, doesn't that mean they love you? Of course, it means that they love you. I mean, what's the alternative? Thank God Simon's not coming. He's a dickhead, like, I don't want him here. So let them be disappointed. And then you say the second part, which is let me. And you ask yourself, well, what do I value? And if you truly value family and it's important to you, then make a decision to go. Not because you don't want to let them down. But because it's for you. Because if you operate from a model of, I don't want to let other people down. I don't want to feel guilty. I don't want to disappoint them. You make them the villain.

• 35:02Speaker 00

  And you give your power away.

• 35:03Simon Sinek?

  And you're doing everything for other people. The thing that I really I mean, you may have already come to this realization, this conclusion. Those two ideas are the same thing. They're two sides of the same coin. It's accountability.

• 35:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:15Simon Sinek?

  And one is taking accountability, five, four, three, two, one. And the other one is ensuring that they have accountability, that you're not taking accountability for them and their actions.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:22Simon Sinek?

  It's one is being responsible for yourself and making sure that they're responsible for themselves. It's the same thing.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 35:29Simon Sinek?

  Which I, which I think is really powerful. And it doesn't surprise me that you came upon both ideas. I learned this a long time ago and I, I had a similar experience, same, same, many years ago. I mean, I was a, I, I was doing consulting and I cared that my clients did well, obviously. I took their success personally because I wanted to support them. And I'd give them advice. I have objectivity that they don't have because I'm an outsider. I'm not emotionally connected to whatever it is their business.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:58Simon Sinek?

  I can see things much more clearly than they can, not because I'm smarter, just because I'm on the outside. And I would give advice and they would fight with me. And I'd be forced to defend my advice. And I would be passionate about it. I have sleepless nights because I really wanted them to succeed. And I realized, same thing. I was like, why the hell am I getting upset over his business? Like, I don't care. And so the next day I, I shifted accountability. I gave some advice, gave an observation and he fought with me. He's like, no, that's not what we should do. We should do this. And I said, look, this is your business. If you are wildly successful or if you go completely bankrupt, I just want you to know, I don't care. I'm going to sleep well tonight regardless of the decision you make.

• 36:41Simon Sinek?

  Every decision you make is going to be the right one because it's your decision and it's your business. And I'm, I'm just here to show you stuff that you maybe can't see by yourself.

• 36:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:49Simon Sinek?

  So take my advice or ignore my advice.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  And he took your advice.

• 36:53Simon Sinek?

  It's, and of course, the minute, and I realized what was happening is the reason I got emotional is because I was taking on accountability, which is why I defended the idea. Because it's, I'm taking accountability for the decision. The minute I pushed it in his court, all of a sudden he took, he started taking the advice. Yes, exactly. All of a sudden he, he started listening more.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  People need to think it's their idea.

• 37:14Simon Sinek?

  They need, and, and I just think that the reason people fight, I think the reason people fight is because they're trying hard not to take accountability. Because if I take accountability, that means I'm responsible for the outcome. But if I can blame you for the outcome, you know?

• 37:31Speaker 00

  I actually think it's deeper than that.

• 37:33Simon Sinek?

  Go on.

• 37:35Speaker 00

  Well, if you have a hardwired need for control.

• 37:37Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  And somebody pushes. It is an assault to your agency.

• 37:45Simon Sinek?

  I'm not the one pushing.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  You are by challenging an idea that makes him uncomfortable.

• 37:50Simon Sinek?

  I think that's how it plays out some of the time. You know, some of the times it's like, hey, we did this research. I recommend you do this. It's sometimes it's very, you know.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Well, you might have just been dealing with somebody very argumentative.

• 38:02Simon Sinek?

  I mean, but, but that's just it, which is that argumentative defensive person. And I, and I, that happens in relationships as well.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 38:09Simon Sinek?

  Which is we become argumentative because we're triggered by something or we're defending ourselves in something. But the minute the accountability is shifted, and that's what let them does. It shifts accountability, which I absolutely adore. And let me, like five, four, three, two, one, is me taking accountability. And then there's the relationship in between. And so if you take accountability for you, and I promise to take accountability for me, I guarantee we're good. We're both going to be happier and more relaxed.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  Yes, and if you stop focusing on things you can't control, you're going to feel less stressed and frustrated in your life. And you're going to see that no matter what the situation is, you always have power.

• 38:41Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 00

  Because you can always focus on your response. And if you look at the word taking responsibility, it's your ability to respond.

• 38:49Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  And you know, the other area where I think you might be very interested, where this has had a huge impact in my life is it's changed my entire approach to adult friendship. And I know you've been talking about this a lot recently. And I have a philosophy about friendship. That when you are 20 and under, friendship is a group sport. Your entire life is organized so that it is easy to spend time with people your age. And every milestone in your life is measured at the same time. You move through one grade to the next grade, to the next grade, to the next grade. You are able to locate yourself in space and time because you are with people your age, all doing the same thing.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  And so the conditions for friendship are set up. And you also have a tremendous amount of time with people going through the same things. And then all of a sudden your twenties hit and what I call the great scattering happens. And nobody sees it coming. And friendship goes from a group sport where everybody expects to be included because you've always been included on teams or in classes or whatever, to an individual one. And what people don't understand is that there's a massive shift from expecting to be included, expecting to be best friends, expecting it, to actually having to create it. And understanding that there are three things that have to be present in order for a friendship to happen.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  Number one, you have to have proximity. And the reason why proximity matters is because time spent with people matters. And they've done studies on how much time you need to spend with somebody in order to become a friend. And it's a huge amount of time. To be a casual friend, the study is something like 70 hours. To be a close friend, it's something like 200 hours. This is why you easily made friends in college because you were living with people, you were eating with people, so the conditions of proximity were there. It's also why you weren't friends with the person at the end of the hall. They've done research on this too, that if you study who you're friends with in a dorm, the people across the hall or next door are more likely going to be your friends. Why? Proximity matters. The person that you don't see much who's at the end of the hall,

• 41:03Speaker 00

  you're not going to spend that much time with. The second one is the timing of your life. And so if you're now in your twenties, the timing of everybody's life is very different. Because some people are going to graduate schools, some people are going into the military, some people are moving, some people are getting married, some people are chasing the corporate ladder, some people are traveling. So the timing of what's relevant for you is off. And it used to be the same because you're all moving through grades, right? The third is energy. Sometimes energy clicks, sometimes it doesn't. And friendships in your adult life are going to come and go for the rest of time.

• 41:46Speaker 00

  Which is why you have to have a very flexible approach to friendship from the moment you turn 20. You have to learn to let people leave and let new people come in. And if you don't understand this, you start to think that you're the problem, you start to think that you're being left out. If you have a friendship that starts to fade, I want you, before you X them out, before you judge, before you judge yourself, I want you to ask yourself, are the three conditions present? Or is proximity changed? Or has the timing of our lives changed? They're gotten engaged, I'm still single. They're in graduate school, I'm across the country doing something else. Has the energy shifted?

• 42:31Speaker 00

  Because that happens too. If you're suddenly not drinking, the energy is going to shift with you and the friends of yours that partied all the time. And what I love about understanding this is that it makes it not personal. And when you understand that friendship is also now an individual sport and it's yours to create, it allows you to understand that the whole tool is not let them create my social life, not let them keep up with the text chain, but let me figure out what I want friendship to be and let me go first. Let me be the one that's making the plans. Let me be the one reaching out. Not because I'm expecting them to respond, but because this is a value of mine that I want to create for myself.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  And what you'll find when you shift this perspective is that you find your people.

• 43:19Simon Sinek?

  Tell me a specific story, something you've done in your career, that if a project, something you were involved in, doesn't have to have been commercially successful, but that if every project you did was like this one, you'd be the happiest person alive?

• 43:36Speaker 00

  I loved actually writing this book because I did it with my daughter and it healed our relationship. It allowed me to see my daughter in a completely different light. So my daughter had never wanted to work with me. And I respect that. She wanted to have her own path in life, she wanted to do her own thing. And when she graduated from college, she went and worked for this huge cybersecurity firm and was in the marketing and analytics department. And then after a couple of years of doing that, she went on a solo backpacking trip in Asia. And came home from that broke, moved in with my husband and I,

• 44:20Speaker 00

  and was looking for a job and looking for a restaurant job so that she could save up a bunch of money and move to New York and then go on with her life. And so I said to her, you know, I'm about to hire a research assistant to research this thing that I'm calling the let them theory. And you need money. And I know you don't want to work for me. But if you would like to make some money, I can have you work with somebody else. You don't have to talk to me. But it's like a three week long project. Here's a podcast episode. Here's a couple YouTube videos. Here's some articles. And here's about 15,000 comments. Why don't you dig into all of this and come back to me and kind of tell me, give me some

• 45:05Speaker 00

  sentiment analysis? And so she said, fine, fine. Okay, okay. So 36 hours later, she presents a 27-page, Excel columned, color-coded, dropdown menu, source-linked guide to all of her research, including a two-page like distillation of everything she had discovered with a gigantic warning that she didn't think that I should write this book because she was deeply concerned that she was seeing a lane of people who

• 45:49Speaker 00

  were saying that the theory was making them lonelier. Because when you say let them and you allow people to be who they are, you start to realize that you have a lot of friendships that are fake, or you have a lot of relationships in your life that are one-sided, where you're putting in a lot of effort and it's not getting returned. And when you see that somebody doesn't reciprocate, you then start to feel like, my God, my siblings, they don't ever reach out. My friends don't reach out. Now I'm really lonely. And so she said, you can't write this book unless there's a second part. There has to be a part, Mom, where this flips and you feel empowered again.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  And it was her and her research and her brain that created the second step, which is let me. And it was a extraordinary experience to have her hand me that 27-page document, because it was the first time I understood her brain. And she is a extremely driven human being, and it made me realize, oh, my God, like, she's got a computer processor upstairs. And I now understand for the first time that if she doesn't have something big to aim it at, she aims it at herself, which is why she's hard on herself.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  And it had me see a side of her that I never fully understood. It was extraordinary, but the bigger thing was as we worked through all of the different aspects of writing this book, and you know, like, you've written unbelievable books. It's a bitch to write a book. We had to say, let them, let them, let them with each other every day, all day long. And we were the kind, we had the kind of relationship where we're really close, but there was just this invisible distance. And I think there's a lot of relationships like that, where you want to be closer,

• 47:54Speaker 00

  you want to have more fun, you want to feel like the tension or whatever the things are that you start to get irritated with one another, that they would just disappear. And every one of us has somebody like that in our life, whether it's a parent, or it's an adult child, or it's a sibling, or it's somebody that you're a friend with. There's just sort of like this, like...

• 48:15Simon Sinek?

  So of all of the amazing things you've done in your life, what specifically is about this one that you cling on to and you want to talk about it right now? I asked for you for a single example of something you love that is everything you did in your life was like this thing?

• 48:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:27Simon Sinek?

  You'd be the most fulfilled person in the world. What specifically is about this story that stands out amongst all the other things?

• 48:33Speaker 00

  It allowed me to clear out the friction and bullshit between us.

• 48:37Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 48:38Speaker 00

  It allowed us to create space.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  For both of us to be and for us to truly give like, you know, because look, people are irritating, especially the people that you love. I often think that family is around so that it teaches you to love people you hate sometimes. And when you're working with somebody in the trenches like that, there are going to be things all day long that piss you off or frustrate you. And when you say let them, you don't have that death by a thousand cuts that start to build up the resentment, the frustration, the annoyance. You create space for the other person to be human.

• 49:17Simon Sinek?

  Okay. Tell me an early, specific, happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you, something specific.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Oh, boy. Childhood memory. When I grew up in North Muskegon, Michigan, and it was back when winters were really bad, although the winters are bad now. And my mom used to shovel off a big ice skating rink and my best friend and I would go down.

• 49:44Simon Sinek?

  Is this one memory you're thinking of? Is this something that recurs?

• 49:46Speaker 00

  Oh, no, I'm thinking of a particular day.

• 49:48Simon Sinek?

  Okay, good.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  And my best friend and I, Jody Bricken, we would trudge down there. And I have this one memory where I have this hideous, like, when I think about what my daughters looked like when they were 14.

• 49:58Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  Versus me with my buck teeth and braces and middle part and feathered hair and hideous acid washed jeans and my like leg warmers and just ugly ass, like, what the hell? I looked like a troll. And so we had this big boombox and we had, I think it was Journey on it. And Jody and I would sit out there for hours and create ice dancing routines.

• 50:24Simon Sinek?

  Brilliant. Okay. What I think is so interesting about the memory, that memory, and the Victoria you told about.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  My daughter's story.

• 50:35Simon Sinek?

  Your daughters and writing the book with her, is in both cases, there was a clearing that happens. Right? And you said it. You said as much. You said it cleared a space. It created a space for us. Right? It relieved something. And it's not too different than your mother creating the space for ice dancing to happen. And in, in some way, you have become your mother. Where your theories clear snow off the ice. So that other people can go create, do, be whoever they are. Live their best lives.

• 51:19Simon Sinek?

  And uh, this is, this is, it all makes sense to me. Everything we've talked about in all of your theories are about you are shoveling snow away. You are creating space. The storms and snow that we add to our brains that don't allow ourselves or other people to go create ice dances. And this living best self by let them or counting down, all of it is shoveling snow.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  It makes perfect sense. It's a great visual.

• 51:49Simon Sinek?

  And, and this is who you, you've become your mother, where you're this minor character in a big story. A minor character that does a big thing. So that other, all of your stuff is very, very simple. Like shoveling snow. It doesn't require a lot of, a lot of effort, doesn't require a lot of skill. It is a skill, it is an effort, you gotta do it. It's something to be done. But when that snow is cleared, when that space is made. The only thing that happens is joy and happiness is clarity and ice dancing and certainty and accountability and all of it. And, and I, that has been the constant theme in everything that you've said today.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  It's a beautiful way to wrap it up. And you know, what's funny is that this morning, uh, my mom sent me a text and it was, she was in a Chico's. Of course. And it was a photo of her with this awesome woman between my mom and my dad. And she wrote me this note that said, hey, I'm in Chico's and this is Ellen. And she's a huge fan of yours. And she wants you to know that because of your podcast, she has gone back to singing opera, something she hasn't done in 15 years. And it's let them and the five second rule that have cleared the path for her.

• 53:15Simon Sinek?

  To go make ice dances.

• 53:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 53:20Simon Sinek?

  This is who you are. You've devoted your life and you are your best self and you're probably your most fulfilled. When you are clearing space for other people to go. Take accountability for their own lives and be their best selves, however you want to put it.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 53:33Simon Sinek?

  And. Like I said, it is small things that have big impact. These little, little, little rules. That can be applied so quickly and so easily.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I feel like one of the things that is missing for most people is hope.

• 53:47Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  That it's easy to listen to you or to me or to read our books. But. If you don't think it's going to work for you.

• 53:57Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  You won't do it.

• 53:59Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. I think this is the thing that.

• 54:03Simon Sinek?

  I think you and I have in common, which is. I work, I've really practiced over the years. That I don't say you. I say we. I don't stand on stage and say. You know what you need to do to thrive? You know, like who the hell am I? Right? I say, you know what we need to do to learn how to thrive? We need to be better at taking care of each other. We need, and I always include myself, as do you. And both of our stories are not because we're smarter. Both of our stories is because we had no choice. Like, like you had no choice but to come up with something. Otherwise. Who knows what would have happened? My story is the same, like all of the discoveries I've made is not because I'm smart.

• 54:46Simon Sinek?

  It's not because I sat down and like, I'm going to think about things that have an impact on the world. Not at all. It's because I had no choice. Like, like a kid with ADHD who couldn't read a book and. ADHD wasn't a thing when I was a kid. I was just. Hyperactive, selfish and, and unfocused. That's how I was described. And. But I couldn't study and I wasn't good at school. And I was going to fail school unless I figured out ways to pass school. And so I learned how to ask really good questions and be a really good listener. Because I had no choice. And I'm a great believer that the, the solutions we find to the struggles we have in where kids become our strengths as adults.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 55:26Simon Sinek?

  And.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Or they become the prison you're in as a.

• 55:28Simon Sinek?

  Or they become the prison that you, yeah, 100%, 100%. And I love the way you speak. I'm been captivated this entire time, taking in every word, not agreeing with all of them, but taking them in.

• 55:41Speaker 00

  Let them.

• 55:42Simon Sinek?

  Uh, let them.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  I don't care.

• 55:45Simon Sinek?

  But it's not a question of caring. I like the intellectual pursuit.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:49Simon Sinek?

  It's not that I disagree because I think you're wrong. That's not what it is.

• 55:52Speaker 00

  No, you can tell your mind is like.

• 55:55Simon Sinek?

  I want to understand the nuance.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  You can tell.

• 55:57Simon Sinek?

  It's not that I, it's not that I want to be, I want you to be wrong. That's not what it is. It's a question of really wanting to understand all the nuance that goes with a really beautiful, rich idea. Cause I love ideas and I love understanding how the world works. And like you, I believe we overcomplicate things. And some people overcomplicate things because it makes them look smart. And some people overcomplicate things because they can't help themselves. But if you really boil it down, human beings are pretty simple, pretty predictable, pretty consistent.

• 56:30Simon Sinek?

  And if you understand some basics of sort of anthropology and human biology, it all kind of just makes sense. And this is why your ideas are so elegant. They're so elegant in their simplicity. They're so elegant. I walk away richer, having had you here. Thank you so, so much.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  Well, thank you for having me.

• 56:48Simon Sinek?

  Such magic. Such magic. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. Lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simoncinek.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.