Does Gender Change How We Lead? with Retired Colonel DeDe Halfhill

Is there such a thing as female leadership? Or is gender not a factor? DeDe Halfhill would say yes and no. A retired Air Force colonel, Dede spent 20 years in the military, where she advised some of the military’s most powerful leaders during the War in Iraq. She was often the only woman in the room for weeks on end. And while DeDe found the principles of leadership to be universal, there was no denying her experience as a woman leader was different from the men. DeDe is an old friend of mine, and I was excited to talk with her about what she learned during her time in the Air Force. She explained to me why people react differently to male versus female leaders, why loneliness often shows up as exhaustion, and how the ability to do emotional labor makes all leaders great, regardless of gender. This...is A Bit of Optimism. For more on DeDe and her work, check out: dedehalfhill.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm only maybe 20% recovered. I'm still a really bad fixer. I mean, I'm a good fixer. I think my ideas are amazing.

• 0:10Simon Sinek?

  Traditional male characteristics are things like aggression or decisiveness. Traditional female characteristics are things like patience, empathy. We don't actually need more female leaders. What we need is more leaders who act like females. And women just happen to be better at that, which is why I'm excited to talk to DeeDee Halfhill. She is a powerhouse and a badass. She was in the Air Force for over 25 years, and she advised some of the most senior leaders of the military, from chiefs of staff to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. She was a leader in a profession dominated by men and machismo. As she was learning to be a leader, she could have followed their model, but she didn't.

• 0:50Simon Sinek?

  She forged her own, one built on clarity, vulnerability, and a deep understanding of what truly inspires people to follow. This is actually not about men versus women. This is about finding the right traits that make any of us, all of us, better leaders. This is a bit of optimism. You and I have known each other a very long time.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  A long time.

• 1:16Simon Sinek?

  Too long.

• 1:16Speaker 00

  No, not too long.

• 1:18Simon Sinek?

  In fact, I met you probably three years before Start With Why was a TED Talk or a book or anything like that. In fact, I think you are more responsible for my relationship with the military than almost anybody else. It's true. You were forced to be in a meeting that I was there.

• 1:34Speaker 00

  I wasn't forced. I was excited to be there.

• 1:36Simon Sinek?

  You didn't even know who I was? You didn't know anything? How can you say you're excited?

• 1:38Speaker 00

  I wasn't excited to see you. I was excited to have the conversation because I'd spent years trying to get to these leaders. You were there to help pave the inroads for that.

• 1:48Simon Sinek?

  That's true. Okay. You and I have had this conversation many times about what is female leadership. 25 years in the Air Force, and you left just recently.

• 2:00Simon Sinek?

  You grew up in a very male-dominated machismo world. And I'm very curious if there is such thing as female leadership.

• 2:08Speaker 00

  I would say yes and no, you know? I think I shared a story with you about just prior to going to Iraq. And I was going to be taking command for the very first time. This was my second tour to Iraq. So I wasn't necessarily nervous about going to Iraq. I had some apprehension about going into command. What I didn't know, I didn't grow up in the world of the squadron I was going to be commanding. And so I had reached out to a female leader I very much respected and admired. She's amazing. I said, listen, I'm getting ready to go take command. What do I need to know as a woman? And she said, nothing. Leadership is leadership. And I thought, oh, okay, great. So I went over to Iraq and I was in command.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  And I was constantly butting up against things that just didn't feel right. Like I felt like something was off. Like I had one captain at one point, we were having struggles with our dining facility. And I said, like, hey, we really got to get this in check. Backstory, it was all about Cocoa Puffs. I had a commander who was anti Cocoa Puffs, but we don't have time to go into that today. And he said, all over it, ma'am. I got this. And I was like, oh, okay. I didn't think much of it. And then a couple of weeks later, the Cocoa Puffs were still there. And I asked him again, like, hey, what's going on with the Cocoa Puffs? And he's like, ma'am, I told you, we're all over it.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  We got this. And I said, well, I don't think you do because Cocoa Puffs are still there. Little moments like that, where it just felt like I was being dismissed, where it felt like I was getting these pats on the head, even though I was substantially senior to him in rank. And I thought, that's just, just feels off. I then had another moment where a leader senior to me was giving me feedback. And he said, listen, I think you're doing a great job, but sometimes I think you flirt to get your way. And I was like flirt like it just threw me into a tailspin because you know me.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm I don't ever try to use femininity to get my way or to make inroads. I did grow up in the air force as a communications officer, public affairs officer is what we call it in the military. I was the liaison to the community, to the media, sometimes to Congress, which means I had to be personable. And I had to know how to engage people.

• 4:41Simon Sinek?

  Very different from flirting.

• 4:42Speaker 00

  Very different from flirting and it threw me into such a tailspin because sometimes I share this story and I'll ask people, what does flirting look like to you? So if I were to ask you right now, like, what does flirting look like to you? How would you know if someone's flirting with you?

• 4:57Simon Sinek?

  Flirting like when you're in a social place with someone and you're both trying to send signals to each other like, hey, I kind of like you and you look for to get those signals back. And, you know, we're social animals, we're attuned to it, you know, some better than others, but it's the dance of mating.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, but what are the behaviors you're seeing?

• 5:17Simon Sinek?

  What are the behaviors you're seeing? Well, but I think context also matters. Like if I make a joke in a social context, it could be a flirt. If I make a joke in a professional context, you know, like I make a little self deprecating joke.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:28Simon Sinek?

  You know, extreme flirting would be, I guess, touching, you know, somebody rubbing a knee or touching a shoulder. That's a flirt. I guess the proverbial batting your eyelids.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Which I can't do.

• 5:38Simon Sinek?

  Which I can't do either.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  But.

• 5:40Simon Sinek?

  I don't know. It's hard.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  It is.

• 5:41Simon Sinek?

  It's a hard. It's a good question. It's hard.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  You make my point in that most of us can't describe it. And when we do, we say things like, well, you were smiling, you might have giggled. I actually touched one of your staff members this morning when I came in and I said, how are you doing? I touched his shoulders, right? And so these behaviors.

• 6:01Simon Sinek?

  Stop flirting with my staff.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And so all of these behaviors that sometimes people say are flirtatious behaviors are the very same behaviors that I had to cultivate as a public affairs officer, smiling, being nice.

• 6:18Simon Sinek?

  So, so is there such thing as female leadership or not?

• 6:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I was getting there. So I left there thinking, oh my gosh, there was so much about that experience that was different because I was a woman. And so, yes, do I think sometimes there are things about being a woman in a male-dominated environment that may just be behaviors that come naturally to us? Things like more communicative, right? We tend to collaborate, we tend to communicate more, we tend to be more inclusive in bringing people in, not exclusive to women, but maybe more practiced by women. And so, yes, I think there are ways that men traditionally behave, there are ways that

• 7:05Speaker 00

  women traditionally behave. I don't think it's male leadership and female leadership. I think it is, there are some behaviors that maybe as a general rule, not in its entirety, that we might be more practiced at. I think there's a bigger discussion to have. Like, you would ask me what it was like being a woman in the military, you know, is there female leadership? When I get asked the question, what was the hardest part about being a woman in the military? The answer I've come to is the emotional labor. Because I had these skills and I could sit in that discomfort of other people's emotion, people started to come to me. And I would have people come to me from other squadrons who would say, hey, ma'am, could

• 7:49Speaker 00

  I get 10 minutes of your time? And I'd be like, of course, right? Because I want everyone to feel healthy and to get through, like, to talk about the things that are frustrating them. And what I realized after like a year or so of doing this was that, that's real time. So spending all that time, when people would want to talk to me about where they were struggling, the time I spent doing that, because I believe in it and I think it matters, is time I wasn't getting to go out and talk to my units, it was time I wasn't getting to do the admin that all of us have to do, wasn't getting through emails. It was a quantifiable thing. And so, the hardest part for me about being a woman in the military was not all of the

• 8:32Speaker 00

  environmental things that people think about being a woman in the military. It was to be the kind of leader I wanted to be. Is it because I'm a woman or not? I don't know. But my ability to sit in that emotional space was time that my male peers did not have to expend. Their own people weren't going to them to talk because they didn't have the ability to sit in the space with them, which means they had that half hour to do other things. They had that hour to do other things. That, for me, when I look back, is probably the hardest. That was the hardest thing.

• 9:06Simon Sinek?

  And this is something you told me, which is, but people respond differently to men versus women. You know, you told me about, there was an army, I think it was an NCO, who was in your command. He said to you, you know, ma'am, when a male leader yells at me, all good, water off my back, totally got it, hop to whatever he needs me to do. When you yell at me, I feel like my mom's yelling at me. And it's a different response. And so I think when men engage with men and men engage, like, I think there is a dynamic of traditional mom dad dynamics. Is that true? Is that just unique to him? That if you yell at him, it comes across very differently than if a male leader yells at him, how he responds?

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, same situation, same time in Iraq. There were three female commanders. Two of the three of us were investigated for mistreatment of our airmen. A friend of mine was the investigating officer, and he said, I'm not seeing these women do anything I don't see men do every day. But when the women do it, it is perceived to be more toxic than when the men do it. The research shows that when men behave differently than society thinks we should be behaving, we are held to a different standard, and it's used against us more.

• 10:23Simon Sinek?

  What was the behavior? What was the thing that they were upset about that men do all the time?

• 10:26Speaker 00

  Swearing.

• 10:28Simon Sinek?

  Swearing?

• 10:28Speaker 00

  Swearing was the big one.

• 10:30Simon Sinek?

  Swearing in the military?

• 10:31Speaker 00

  She cussed at me. She dropped the F-bomb too many times.

• 10:35Simon Sinek?

  No kidding?

• 10:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:37Simon Sinek?

  That was the toxic behavior?

• 10:38Speaker 00

  That was it. It was the behaviors of get it done, get your, proverbially, get your shit together. And when women behaved in a way that we all see men do every, in fact, in most cases, men are rewarded for it. They're decisive.

• 10:56Simon Sinek?

  So interesting.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:57Simon Sinek?

  So interesting. And I think you're right. It's the societal expectations. It's not the behavior per se. It's the expectation in the lane. If we think about what the lanes are in the 1800s and the 18, like if we go back through time, what the lanes for acceptable behavior for men and women have been, you know, those lanes move. Culture advances and norms and standards of behaviors change. And those lanes of expectations change. And that's very interesting that when somebody steps out of that lane of expectation, we find that jarring.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:28Simon Sinek?

  And in your case, worthy of investigation.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  It's so interesting because what used to be held against women, I think, is actually being held against men just as equally now.

• 11:40Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  You know, I was in Iraq. That was 2010. So that's 15 years ago. And the way I'm watching leadership change now, the feedback I get from employees who are working for leaders, who maybe grew up in a very command and control environment, they are no longer tolerating that. Even in a traditionally command and control environment of the military, it's no longer being tolerated.

• 12:05Simon Sinek?

  There's a new expectation and too many, in this case, men is what we're talking about.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:09Simon Sinek?

  Have been practicing in a different lane. And now they're trying to conform to the new lane.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. And they feel really lost because they've seen one kind of leadership modeled.

• 12:18Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  The expectations are changing rapidly.

• 12:21Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  They have not seen modeled the kind of leadership we actually need today.

• 12:26Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. Okay, let's go deep.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 12:29Simon Sinek?

  We've been playing up here.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 12:34Simon Sinek?

  When you were deployed, so three things happened to you simultaneously. Any one of those would have been difficult to manage by themselves. You were promoted. You were given your first command. And you were deployed for 365 days. So any one of those things was, is difficult to manage by itself. And all three of those happened simultaneously to you.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  And command of a squadron I had no experience in.

• 13:00Simon Sinek?

  And command of a squadron you had knew nothing about.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:02Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:03Simon Sinek?

  That wasn't your, your, your training.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:06Simon Sinek?

  Okay, so we'll add four things in there.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  I could add a fifth, but we won't.

• 13:10Simon Sinek?

  What was the fifth?

• 13:11Speaker 00

  I was the only female in my leadership group.

• 13:13Simon Sinek?

  Okay, so any one of those five things is difficult to manage. And you had all five things happen simultaneously. And off you went for your deployment. And you, I saw you maybe a week after you got back.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:26Simon Sinek?

  Two weeks at the most, but it was you. All the emotions were raw, the experience was raw. And we went out for dinner and I asked you a very simple question, which is, how was it?

• 13:39Speaker 00

  It's so funny because even putting myself right back in that moment, hearing you say it, like I can feel all the raw emotions.

• 13:46Simon Sinek?

  Tell me, as best you can remember, you took command of a squadron that was underperforming. And if I recall, the previous leaders had all been fired, like the past, the previous two or three leaders had been fired. And you were like, I'm going to turn it around. I'm going to be the one, I'm going to be the one who fixes this and makes, if I recall.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  The career field as a whole was really having trouble.

• 14:08Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  With its commanders.

• 14:10Simon Sinek?

  You were responsible for all the base operations at Balad Air Base.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, feeding, fitness and fun and housing. I mean, just everything that allowed people to exist on the base. But the story I told you was that it just felt like everything was going wrong. I had a day where I went back to my trailer and the inner story I was telling myself is you are the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to leadership. You are a complete failure. Who thought that you could do this? Like I had all of the shame narratives running on repeat and at max volume.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  And I had this moment where, you know, I first had my little mini like breakdown, but then I had this moment after talking to a couple of friends about it that I thought, if I have failed, and maybe I have, like, maybe I'm not meant to be a commander. Maybe this just isn't my calling. I'll go back to public affairs, which is all about engagement, communication. I'll just go back to that and I'll have a great career in the Air Force. So if I have failed, what impact do I really want to have? What do I want these people who I have been entrusted to care for? What do I want them to know?

• 15:26Speaker 00

  I want them to know they matter. I want them to know that what they're doing here is not in vain. I want them to know that the time away from their family, the time away from their lives, the danger they are accepting is worth something. And it matters because so often, the airmen in my squadron, so often, they were the ones who took the brunt of everyone else's stress. I would have a pilot throw milk at one of my airmen at the dining facility because we changed the policy on takeout. Right? We couldn't take out containers anymore. I would have my airmen get yelled at

• 16:10Speaker 00

  because their laundry wasn't done in a timely fashion, even though it wasn't my airmen doing the laundry. It was a contractor. And so they were just always taking the brunt of people's bad behavior. And so they were always getting beat up. And you could see that in their energy. Like, it just felt like we were beat dogs. And I thought, I want them to know, like, that's not true. That story they're telling themselves isn't true. I want them to know they matter. And I didn't know it then, but it started the journey of the next 15 years of my career. Because I realized I may never be the best at anything. There are always going to be moments I'm going to feel like I'm failing. And who I want to be as a leader at the core is to make people know they matter

• 16:54Speaker 00

  and what they're doing matters.

• 16:56Simon Sinek?

  And what happened?

• 16:57Speaker 00

  The first thing that happened was I felt better. And when I felt better, I wasn't barking as much. I wasn't as stressed. I wasn't as tied to outcomes because I was more concerned about the people. And you could just see a tangible shift in the way they laughed with one another, the way they came to me with opportunities and new ideas. I could see the way my own officers took a breath.

• 17:32Speaker 00

  And I think just overall, the stress level of the entire organization dropped.

• 17:38Simon Sinek?

  But what ended up actually happening at the performance level?

• 17:41Speaker 00

  You can't help but have better performance when you have all that.

• 17:43Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, I remember when you told me the story. And it's nice to hear it, you know, these 15 years later because you're telling it differently. You're telling it with new perspective. And when I remember you telling me, which is, you know, you came in like, I was going to turn this place around. I was going to be this leader. I'm going to prove everybody they chose the right person and it wasn't working. Nothing, nothing was working. And you told me that for six months, you cried yourself to sleep. That you regretted being in the air force. You regretted serving your country. You regretted being in Iraq. You were homesick. You just, you wanted it all to end. And this is what you're saying, which is at some point you just accepted that you were a failure. And it was at the point of accepting failure that you said, well, screw it.

• 18:25Simon Sinek?

  If I failed anyway, I might as well make it that these people, for the time that they're away with their families, they have a decent time and prove to them that they matter. And things started to change. You did turn it around. It did become a highly successful command. And you went from fighting with those in your command to them, they would willingly follow you anywhere. I remember exactly where we were too. I know exactly where we had dinner.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Oh, across from the Pentagon?

• 18:50Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, it's Pentagon City. There's a little restaurant in that square. It's dark, it's like a pub. And we sat in a corner in a very dark, pubby kind of space. And we sat there pretty private so we could talk.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Champs has gone out of business.

• 19:02Simon Sinek?

  Okay, well Champ, that's right, that's right. It was Champs. My God, listen, look at us 15 years later. You sat there and you're telling me this whole story, the emotions right on the surface. And you started to cry. And you said, I've never felt pride like this, helping people realize they matter. A subject that I have talked about and a subject that I know you talk about. I genuinely want to know how you, how you've learned to manage the feeling of loneliness as a leader or in general. Like when I say loneliness, what, what washes over you?

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Oh, gosh. That I'm not alone in the feeling of loneliness, right? Like it's everywhere. I'll tell you what made me feel the most lonely.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  Feeling like I had no support around me. I think I felt loneliness, but I don't know that I really had the courage to address it until much later in my career. And it was a moment that I was out with one of my squadrons. The story is actually in the book Dare to Lead. Dr. Brene Brown included this story in the book. And I was out having a conversation with a group of my airmen presenting an award. And at the end of the award, I said, like, what's on your mind? Which is a question I asked regularly. And one of my airmen raised his hand and he said, hey, ma'am, when's the ops tempo going to slow down? Cause like, man, we're super tired.

• 20:27Simon Sinek?

  Operations tempo.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, operations tempo. And I said, yeah, I hear you. Like, we're asking a lot of you. And so I asked the group, I said, how many of you are tired? You know, the whole room raised their hand. And I said, we ask a lot of you. We've been at war for 20 years. When we're not at war, we're at home preparing for inspection. When we're not preparing for inspection, we're training for an exercise. Like, there is just always something to be doing. So, I get it. Oddly enough, three days prior to that conversation, I had read an article in Harvard Business Review. And it was talking about this organization that went into five different companies that were all reporting high levels of exhaustion. And it wanted to understand what was happening in those organizations that was causing that. And so it spent months talking to their leaders, talking to their employees, looking at their policies.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  And it came back after two months and said, it's not that people are tired, but people are lonely. And it's the feeling of loneliness that was manifesting itself as this feeling of exhaustion, that that's the language we knew to use. Because the truth is, we didn't talk about loneliness at work. But we could talk about being tired. That's almost a badge of honor. Like, oh, I'm just so tired, I'm working so hard. But whenever in my career did I have someone without prompting say, I'm feeling really disconnected and lonely? And so I asked my group that day, I said, if I were to ask you instead of who's tired, who's lonely? How many of you would raise your hands? And I asked it completely rhetorically. Cause again, not equipped really to have this conversation.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  And three quarters of the room raised their hands. And I stood there for a moment. One, kind of paralyzed, like, oh shit, what do I do with this? But two, heartbroken because you know this, having spent so much time with DOD. We have an epidemic of rising suicide rates. And I knew that because I'd spent my whole career working with senior leaders. Every year, when the suicide data report was released, trying to once again find just the perfect messaging to reach our airmen, to share with them the tools that were available, the support that was available. And year after year after year, the numbers were increasing and we weren't getting through.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  And here I am, standing in front of a group of, let's be honest, mostly men. And they're sharing something with me that is a very real emotion, one we don't talk about. And I realized that

• 22:53Speaker 00

  we're not having conversations at the root level. And because we're not having those conversations at the root level, we are wasting so much energy just dealing with the symptoms. Because a word like lonely was so uncomfortable for us that we didn't know how to talk about it. I went to Wing Stand Up, which is our weekly meeting at the wing level. And I went to that meeting that week and I said, we need to be talking about loneliness. You know, luckily I'm at the table now, I'm not in the cheap seats against the wall. And to watch, I mean, you would not have seen discomfort more than we saw in that room that day. Like, they were like, oh my gosh, why is she talking about loneliness? Like, why are we having this conversation? That was the moment when I watched all of my fellow peers and other commanders.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  When I saw their discomfort, I realized we're never going to get to the root of this problem if we can't get over the discomfort of language. And that was the moment when I realized I have to use the word lonely. If we're ever going to be able to show people it's okay to talk about it. Right? Like, I had to, as a leader, go first in sharing that. So I think that's when I realized this isn't just a word that we should talk about in the dark corners where no one can really hear us. Like, this is the kind of language we need to be bringing out into the light on a regular basis.

• 24:14Simon Sinek?

  I find this insight not only particularly interesting, but very important. Because we can publicly talk about being exhausted, and when people are lonely, it may show as exhaustion, it may feel like exhaustion. And so it's the easiest thing to say, especially because we don't want to come to work and say, "I'm feeling lonely." And the problem is, is even if you have a well-intentioned leader who sees that you're exhausted, sees something's wrong, you check, they check in, and you report, "I am exhausted." They say, "You know what? Take a day off."

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:46Simon Sinek?

  "You've been burning the candle at both ends. Why don't you take a day off?" Which means, "Go be by yourself more."

• 24:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:53Simon Sinek?

  Right? So even well-intentioned solutions to the problems that we perceive might, which is why we don't see the numbers change, which is why we see the loneliness epidemic rise in the military and other places, the suicide rate's rising. I see the same in policing. I have a charity to help advance better leadership and better culture building in policing. Same thing, very high suicide rates, higher than the national average. There's this intense loneliness, and nobody knows how to talk about it for fear that it sounds weak or mushy, or just fear that I'm ill-equipped. Even the ones who want to talk about it, what if they say yes? I don't know what to, what do I just, "They're there"? Like, what do I say?

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:34Simon Sinek?

  So I think it's a very important conversation to say that these things exist. A friend of mine, who you and I both know who's in, who's active duty still, when they started offering therapists on base to talk to folks, all the commanders went, "Hey, we got a therapist on base now. You know, if you're feeling like you need to talk to somebody, I encourage you to go." But that commander never went. And so my friend was very vocal. He's like, "Look..." If you got a busted leg, you say, go see the leg doctor. If you're having thoughts, you go see the head doctor. It's totally normal. And he would say very publicly, hey, I've got a lot of stuff going on, feeling super stressed out. I'm not going to be available from three to four on Thursday because I'm going to go see the therapist. Let me know if you need anything before or after that.

• 26:17Simon Sinek?

  He's very public that he was struggling and he was going to go talk to somebody.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:21Simon Sinek?

  And it normalized it to your point.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  I get brought into organizations that are very male dominated, construction, law enforcement. I spend a lot of time with finance, which isn't always male dominated.

• 26:34Simon Sinek?

  It's pretty bro-y.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  Still, yeah.

• 26:36Simon Sinek?

  Let's be honest, it's pretty bro-y.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  And two of those three are because they too are really struggling with suicide rates and mental health. You know, mental health crisis.

• 26:46Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  And they bring me in because of, I think, my ability to talk about these hard things without being too soft because I come from such a hard background.

• 27:01Simon Sinek?

  Right, right, right.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  And if I'm being really honest, like I would have told you up until probably 2015, yeah, emotions have no place here. Like, we've got real shit to do.

• 27:13Simon Sinek?

  I've known you that long.

• 27:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. We don't need to be talking, we don't need to be talking about feelings.

• 27:18Simon Sinek?

  I've known tough Didi.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  And what I realized is not talking about feelings was causing all the problems that were getting in the way of us doing good work.

• 27:29Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  That you can avoid it for only so long. It's going to come back to haunt you.

• 27:34Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 27:35Speaker 00

  The problem in the military is that we rotate so much that we don't always see the long-term consequences of that.

• 27:42Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Until we have a suicide epidemic.

• 27:45Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  That is the long-term consequences. It's an uphill battle, you know? I get that, but.

• 27:51Simon Sinek?

  By the way, just as an aside, I hate the term mental health. Because it sounds like a goal to achieve. You either have it or you don't. I'm struggling with mental health issues and I'm gonna do the thing so that I can achieve mental health, which is, it's, then you're gonna, all you do, you're gonna do is lose.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  What would you rather call it?

• 28:10Simon Sinek?

  Mental fitness.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  Okay. Yeah, that's fair.

• 28:12Simon Sinek?

  Cause it's an ongoing process. It's like, physical fitness is something I always have to do.

• 28:17Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 28:17Simon Sinek?

  Sometimes ahead, sometimes I'm behind, but even if I'm in good shape, I have to keep doing it. And so I like mental fitness, which is like my body. I constantly work on my mind and sometimes I'm super like in shape and sometimes I'm not and sometimes it's my fault and sometimes it's because of lack of sleep and old, just like my body.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:35Simon Sinek?

  And so it's just something you work on and it takes the stigma of achievement out of it.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  From a mental fitness perspective, I'm a quick learner, Simon. The work that helped me the most is understanding shame resilience. Anytime we have those feelings or thoughts of, I'm not good enough, or if I do this, who will they think I am? I learned this idea of shame resilience, which is all about, how do I talk to myself? Really recognize the stories I'm telling myself? Getting outside of myself to normalize them, which is a reality check. And if I don't have the conversation to normalize and get the reality check, which is often like, can we talk to someone and be met with empathy to get a reality check on all the lies I'm telling myself?

• 29:24Speaker 00

  Cause I can tell myself a lot of them, some good, some bad. But knowing the work of shame resilience, identifying it, naming it, reality checking it, and then rewriting the story, right? Those are the steps of shame resilience. That, that is the regular weightlifting of my mental fitness because I am prone to shame. I had a lot of experiences in my past that have made me prone to shame, to thinking, I'm not good enough, to thinking, I shouldn't do that because then they'll think I'm too big for my britches. And so I can very quickly go right to shame. Oh my God, that was horrible. That, you suck. What do you think you're doing? Did you see the way that guy in the front row was giving you the eye?

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Oddly enough, and you know this, the guy in the front row giving you the eye is usually the one who's thinking deeply about what it is you're saying, but that's not the story you hear in your head. Because I now have those tools and I have practiced them so much, they have now become close to second nature.

• 30:27Simon Sinek?

  What are the tools?

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Naming it, reality checking it, rewriting the story.

• 30:32Simon Sinek?

  Right. And let's talk about the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is blaming the action. Shame is blaming yourself.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:38Simon Sinek?

  And guilt is not necessarily a bad thing. Like, I told a lie. I need to talk to you. I feel really bad that I told you a lie. Guilt can sometimes produce good behavior.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 30:47Simon Sinek?

  Shame is, I'm a liar. I'm a horrible, horrible human being. So let me ask you a question. Let me game this out with you. If somebody is struggling with shame, I'm a horrible person. And when you talk about reality checking it, does that mean going to somebody who can offer a safe space and be like, can I just run a story past you that I'm telling myself? I'm telling myself a story. Can I just reality check this with you? I think I'm a horrible person because I tell a lot of lies. I think I'm a liar, you know?

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:13Simon Sinek?

  And let's take one. Let's laziness, right? I'm a lazy person. I don't get anything done. I'm unproductive. I'm never going to amount to anything because I'm lazy. Is that true? Am I lazy? It's very easy to see in someone's life and I'll just, you know, when I say, for some things, yeah, you are. Like, for some of you, like your schoolwork or your work. Yeah, I have seen you lazy. But like, when you're with your kids and you run them around all day, it's the furthest thing from lazy. You have so much time, energy to help them with their homework. You're the complete opposite of lazy, you know? And to help people understand that these are narratives, not absolutes. Is this right? Am I getting it right? Kind of, sort of?

• 31:55Speaker 00

  I think you're, I think you're almost there.

• 31:58Simon Sinek?

  This is why I had you on the podcast. What am I missing? Show me, teach me.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  I think you did what a lot of people probably do, is you answer the question. Right? You said, "Yeah, you're lazy here. You're not lazy there."

• 32:11Simon Sinek?

  Ah.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Versus when we go to someone and we're in that really vulnerable moment.

• 32:18Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  If I am brave enough to be that vulnerable with you, what I need first is empathy.

• 32:24Simon Sinek?

  Ah.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  And curiosity. So I need you to say, "Oh, that's a hard feeling. What's making you feel that way?"

• 32:31Simon Sinek?

  Got it.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  And then I get to say what's making me feel that way.

• 32:35Simon Sinek?

  I went into classic fix-it mode. Terrible.

• 32:37Speaker 00

  I'm a fixer. I joke around and say I'm a recovering fixer. And so I think that is the problem with, that's part of the challenge, especially at work. When we are not comfortable with sitting in the discomfort of someone's really shame-inducing feelings, we want to go to fix it. Because we want to get them out of the discomfort. And honestly, we don't want to be in the discomfort. Because fixers, and again, recovering fixer, and I would say I'm only maybe 20% recovered. I'm still a really bad fixer. I mean, I'm a good fixer. I think my ideas are amazing.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  But I am, I'm still working on it. Because I am uncomfortable with your discomfort.

• 33:23Simon Sinek?

  Right, right, right.

• 33:24Speaker 00

  I want to fix it. Because I don't want to see you uncomfortable, because that makes me uncomfortable.

• 33:28Simon Sinek?

  Oh, that's such a good, which is, "I want to fix it." Right? Which is why I think, we go right back to the beginning of men versus women, right?

• 33:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:37Simon Sinek?

  Which is women are more comfortable with uncomfortable emotions.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  Maybe I wasn't.

• 33:41Simon Sinek?

  Unbalance.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:44Simon Sinek?

  Here's one thing I am comfortable saying. Men generally suck at it.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  And I think-

• 33:47Simon Sinek?

  For societal reasons, which is we've been told that you can't be this, you can't be that from a pretty young age. Quit your crying. Why are you crying? Man up. This is what we get.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:56Simon Sinek?

  And so when someone expresses emotion to us that makes us uncomfortable, so we don't have to deal with our emotions, it's easier for me to fix yours. My problem is solved.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 34:06Simon Sinek?

  Don't really care about yours. Or I do. I do care about your problem, but in so doing, I get a twofer.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  I often do.

• 34:13Simon Sinek?

  I don't have to deal with mine. I fixed yours. I'm a hero.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  That's right. I often- I often tell people it's not a matter of innate ability. It is a matter of societal conditioning. Like you said, men have been told you can't exhibit those behaviors and women have been allowed to practice them.

• 34:32Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. And you learned this in Iraq, you learned this in your own leadership journey. We cannot help others. We cannot be there for others until we're there for ourselves.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:40Simon Sinek?

  Like when you accepted that I'm not cut out for this. So now I'll be, now I'll worry about my people as opposed to worry about my performance. That was a shift, which is to take yourself on and accept your own failings and opportunities makes you a better leader. And, and how can I hold space for another if I won't allow someone to hold space for me? And so the reason, the reason we call you leader is not because you're in charge. The reason we call you leader is not because you have rank over another. The reason we call you leader, the reason we were, we use the word lead is because you went first. You literally went first. You led the people. Tip of the spear, right? If you want people to be open with their emotions with you, then you have to go first. You have to find the courage to be vulnerable with a friend.

• 35:25Simon Sinek?

  If you want to be the kind of leader who can hold the space for somebody who is vulnerable, who finds the courage to be vulnerable with you.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 35:32Simon Sinek?

  A good leader isn't the one that has all the answers. The good leader is the one who goes first and has empathy because they've done it.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Can I share a story with you of what that might, what that looked like for me? So this was pre-group command. I'm in an organization and I have a guy on my team who is supposed to be helping me manage the tasks in the office. And every time I sent him an email, the tasks wouldn't get done. I would send him a list of tasks and he might do one or two and the other ones wouldn't get done. And it was causing me a lot of frustration. And so I created this document that he could fill out to give me feedback on what he thinks he did well, what he thinks he doesn't do well. And I sent him the email with the form and I said, fill this out. And when I get back, well, we'll sit down and talk about it.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  And he sent me back an email and he said, I don't know if you know this, but anytime you give feedback to civilians, it needs to be on X and X and X form, which was just basically the middle finger in an email, right? And so that sent me high and right. And I was like, oh, game on buddy. So I went back to the office. I wrote down a six-page memo for record with 68 pages of documentation. Every single time I had asked him to do something in an email, I highlighted it. And so I sit down with him in our feedback session. I said, this is gonna be a one-way conversation. And so I start and I'm like two sentences into the memo I had prepared for him to read. And he blows up and he says, you are the most arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all person I've ever worked for.

• 37:02Speaker 00

  And he's like just going off. And this goes on for probably two, three minutes. And he finishes and when he finishes, he just takes this like deep breath. And even though I was mad and I was frustrated, I looked at him and I said, listen, this isn't who I want to be. I want us to find a way to work together. But it's not working right now. And I need to know, what do you think we can do to make that happen?

• 37:31Speaker 00

  And in that moment, he started tearing up. And I said, what's going on for you?

• 37:37Speaker 00

  And he said, every time you criticize me, every time you tell me I didn't do something, every time you tell me I missed a suspense, what I hear is my dad saying, you're a loser, you're a failure, you're never gonna amount to anything. Completely shifted the relationship between us and never got great, but it definitely was manageable. And I think that's what I mean by like, you have to go first. I was mad, I was so frustrated. Again, 68 pages of documentation, I was armored up and I was ready to go to battle. And in that moment, I had to sit in my own discomfort of us not working, me potentially being a bad leader, me potentially not doing things the right way. I had to sit in that before I could ever get to the place to be who I wanted to be.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  But then once I could be who I wanted to be and I opened the door to showing my own vulnerability, he reciprocated, right? Like, that's what I mean when you go first.

• 38:31Simon Sinek?

  I get asked this question all the time. Simon, one of the most important characteristics for a leader, you know, there's articles written about it, you know, vision, charisma, you know? And of all the great leaders I've met, some of them have big Steve Jobs visions and some of them don't.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:44Simon Sinek?

  You know, some of them have this insane charisma, some of them don't. But the one thing that they all have is courage. And it's not just the courage to speak truth to power. That's a courage. But it's the courage to lead, it's the courage to go first, it's the courage to say, you know what? I don't want to be this person, or this isn't working, or I have to operate differently versus you need to operate differently, you know? It takes tremendous courage to do that. Tremendous courage. I would argue more courage than speaking truth to power, you know?

• 39:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:17Simon Sinek?

  That's a deep breath.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  It's the hardest work we'll ever do.

• 39:20Simon Sinek?

  Here we go. You know, it's like, but the courage to be vulnerable with somebody you don't want to be vulnerable in front of, that's the real thing. And the great leaders that I have the opportunity to meet are the ones who are weirdly open about their shortcomings.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:35Simon Sinek?

  They're just weirdly open about it, to the point where like you, you expect them to be these tough armored, and they're just like, ah, I suck at that.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:43Simon Sinek?

  Or nah, man, I'm, I'm way too distractible, or I'm way too disorganized. They normalize being imperfect in the most beautiful, beautiful way.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 39:52Simon Sinek?

  I really appreciate you coming on. It's such a joy to hear from you.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  I'm so grateful to be here. It was so nice of you to ask.

• 39:57Simon Sinek?

  Of course.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  That was fun.

• 39:58Simon Sinek?

  That's the right answer.

• 40:05Simon Sinek?

  If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simoncinek.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbenius, David Ja, and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Rudesham.