How to Trust Yourself When Everyone Has an Opinion with Love Thy Nader's Mary Holland Nader

Maybe this sounds familiar: you finally get the opportunity you've been waiting for, and the voice in your head says, "I'm not ready, I don't belong here." Now imagine hearing that voice with millions of people watching. Mary Holland Nader has lived it. She never dreamed of fame, but when Hulu's reality series Love Thy Nader came knocking, she traded her secure Wall Street job for the spotlight and put her new platform to work. It allowed her to launch Mary & Pip, a purpose-driven fintech company that takes a wellness approach to money, demystifying finance for those of us it usually makes feel dumb. She also brings that expertise to her new podcast, Growing Interest (where I was lucky to be among her first guests). On the show, Mary Holland lets us join every step of her founder’s journey… even when it’s messy. Because she never wanted to be famous, but now that she is, she’s realized fame is leverage. And Mary Holland's committed to using hers to help and inspire others. In this episode you'll learn: ➡️ How to survive a 180-degree life pivot ➡️ Why your gut doesn't tell you what to do — it checks your values ➡️ The "corny" morning ritual that transformed Mary Holland's confidence ➡️ How to stop making your doubts your identity (with one simple grammar change) ➡️ The difference between being nice and being kind — and why feedback is kind ➡️ The 2 questions every founder should ask before raising money ➡️ Why Simon gives his time to supporters instead of critics ➡️ The "reluctant sellout" + how financial stability protects your values ➡️ How to introduce yourself when you're more than one job title Mary Holland is a new breed of entrepreneur — proof of what happens when you use your platform for something bigger than yourself. She stopped waiting for confidence to arrive and decided to build it… in front of everyone. This… is A Bit of Optimism. + + + This episode is brought to you by SAP. Bring it with SAP GROW. The AI Cloud ERP for any size business. Learn more at https://SAP.com/GROW + + + Tune in to Mary Holland’s new podcast, Growing Interest, and you might just see Simon as a guest. Improve your financial wellness with Mary & Pip. Head to: https://www.maryandpip.com Want to keep up with Mary Holland and her sisters? Check out Love Thy Nader on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/love-thy-nader + + + Chapters Chapters 00:00:00 From Wall Street to Reality TV: Using Fame as a Tool for Good 00:02:57 Growing Up in the Bayou: Four Sisters and a Pet Alligator 00:07:19 Why Finance? Growing Up With Money Anxiety 00:08:25 Meeting Jimmy Kimmel's Agent: The Accidental Origin Story 00:10:29 Quitting Wall Street for Reality TV 00:12:58 Why Finance Makes Everyone Feel Stupid 00:14:14 Mary and Pip: Translating Finance for Real People 00:17:23 Becoming Confident on Camera: From Mortified to Vulnerable 00:25:22 The Power of Positive Self-Talk: Mirror Affirmations That Actually Work 00:28:31 Trust Your Gut: When Smart People Give You Bad Advice 00:30:09 What Does A Mentor Actually Look Like? 00:33:27 Gazelles Get Eaten: Why Hypergrowth Isn't Always Good 00:42:24 Spears: The Feedback Technique That Changed Everything 00:45:32 Correcting Language That Creates False Narratives 00:54:02 The Reluctant Sellout: When Freelancers Are Forced to Compromise 00:56:02 You're Not a Founder, You're an Inviter: Finding Your True Identity + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Simon Sinek?

  You have no desire to be famous and yet you recognize that being on TV and having some fame gives you the ability to spread your message more efficiently.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah.

• 0:11Simon Sinek?

  And the minute you made that connection, you realized, huh, I can leverage this for good.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  This season, it shows a much more competent version of me. I can't control the edit at all. So like, why pretend to be someone I'm not? And the more vulnerable I am, the more likely someone like your niece could watch and be like, oh, I see myself in her, or I could do that too.

• 0:35Simon Sinek?

  These days, fame isn't solely a byproduct of a career. The pursuit of fame has become a career. We live in a world of content creators, influencers, and reality TV stars who have literally made fame their job. Which is why I was excited to talk to Mary Holland Mader. Mary Holland, along with her three sisters, are the stars of the Hulu reality TV show Love Thy Nader. Except, it was Mary Holland's sister, Brooks, who was the one who actually wanted to be famous. Mary Holland just didn't want to let her sisters down. She had a secure Wall Street job and a clear path ahead.

• 1:16Simon Sinek?

  Mary Holland wondered, if I had fame, what could I do with it? Her answer? Leverage it for good. Mary Holland founded Mary and Pip, an app that demystifies money for those of us who don't really understand finance and all its jargon. Just like we have mental and physical wellness, Mary Holland wants to help guide people to practice financial wellness too. She also launched a podcast, Growing Interest, to further advance her cause. You might even see me as a guest on the show sometime. Mary Holland loves to teach and she also loves to learn. So fair warning, you may hear a little more of me than usual in this episode. Mary Holland took full advantage of our time together

• 1:58Simon Sinek?

  to ask me a bunch of questions. It's fair to say that in our modern social media world, counting followers is here to stay. So let's have more entrepreneurs like Mary Holland, who are motivated to use that platform to serve others. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is a bit of optimism.

• 2:25Simon Sinek?

  This episode is proudly brought to you by SAP. 100% of employees are people. 100% of customers are people. And 100% of investors are people. It turns out, if you don't understand people, you don't understand business. Which is why I was so excited when I asked David Robinson, the head of SAP Customer Success in North America, about how he talks to customers about new technology. His secret weapon? Listening. You are now a famous TV star.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Stop. On my way.

• 3:03Simon Sinek?

  And the thing that I find so fun about you and your family, so I want to understand, so you're from the bayou in Louisiana?

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Down under.

• 3:12Simon Sinek?

  Like, not like from New Orleans or something?

• 3:14Speaker 01

  No, from the bayou. So we grew up in Baton Rouge, but we're from a small town called Maringwenn.

• 3:20Simon Sinek?

  Which I can't even figure out how to spell.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  No, it's basically, it means mosquito in Cajun French, so not even French.

• 3:27Simon Sinek?

  It's not even French?

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, Cajun French, because it's, the air is so thick, there's so many mosquitoes there. You walk outside and you're just eaten. I always got the most bites because I was the sweetest sister, of course.

• 3:38Simon Sinek?

  Of course.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  So Maringwenn is like where my grandparents are from, where we were all kind of grew up a little bit. And then we moved to the big city of Baton Rouge, which is a college town, the capital of Louisiana, but still very Cajun.

• 3:51Simon Sinek?

  I mean, like, are you all wearing like overalls and barefoot and like with a piece of straw in your mouth?

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Honestly, yeah. It was pretty stereotypical. Like, Simon, we had a pet alligator. I'm not even kidding. Gary the Gator, yeah. I'm not even kidding. There's pictures of us. We named him Gary.

• 4:06Simon Sinek?

  Wait, was he just like in your backyard?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  He was in our, so when we were in Maringwenn-

• 4:10Simon Sinek?

  Or is he actually your pet?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  We named him Gary, so he was our pet. We obviously didn't like take him on a leash anywhere. That was way too dangerous. But we had a bayou in our backyard. You know what a bayou is, right? It's like a ditch with, it's like the remnants of a swamp. It's like instead of a river to a larger body of water-

• 4:27Simon Sinek?

  It's a nicer word for swamp.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  It's a nicer word for swamp, but it's in a ditch, a swamp in a ditch, basically. And we had a bayou in our backyard in Maringwenn. Not when we, we grew up in Baton Rouge, like in high school and stuff. So this was in Maringwenn. And Gary lived on like a rock just baking in the sun in that bayou. And so we would go throw rocks at him and like play with him. He's never attacked us or anything. We had to play with him from a bridge. So it would be harder for him to get to us. And obviously we had supervision, but we were literally boondock, like running around in our diapers, in the mud, playing with random wildlife. It was quite dangerous.

• 5:05Simon Sinek?

  So all the stereotypes that go through my mind, all true?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  All true.

• 5:09Simon Sinek?

  Okay, so you're, so you're from the bayou, the backwaters of Louisiana?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 5:13Simon Sinek?

  And four sisters?

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, three, four, including me.

• 5:17Simon Sinek?

  Right, four girls.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Four girls, yeah.

• 5:20Simon Sinek?

  And my understanding is that Brooks, who's the oldest?

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 5:25Simon Sinek?

  That Brooks decided when she was young, if my memory serves, that she wanted to be famous?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 5:33Simon Sinek?

  Okay. So the reason you have a TV show?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Literally.

• 5:36Simon Sinek?

  Is because Brooks, as a young girl, decided you would?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Oh my God, yeah. I mean, she knew from the moment she popped out of my mother's 23-year-old womb. Because my mom had us so young. Yeah. But there was a story that I will never forget. We were such a tight-knit family and we, my mom was a stay-at-home mom and we would have guests over for dinner. We had family dinner every single night. And my mom always taught us the power of conversation and communication skills, which I'm so grateful to her now for. But she would always say, like, when we'd say something about ourselves, we have to pass the ball back. And we would pass the ball around, the conversation ball, and make sure that you're always passing the ball.

• 6:11Simon Sinek?

  Literally, or metaphorically?

• 6:13Speaker 01

  When we were together sometimes, because my sisters, I couldn't get a word in. I was definitely the quietest kid. But my sisters were all yappers, as you know. I mean, you know me and my sisters are more yapper than I am. And they talk even more than me. So sometimes we would have to have a talking stick and like, only if you were holding the talking stick. But I digress. We had a friend over who was a writer. He was my dad's friend from high school. And he was like, Brooks, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? She was like, I'm going to be famous. I'm going to drive a pink limousine, like there's going to be paparazzi. She's like eight years old at this point. Talking, talking, talking about how famous she's going to be. And my mom goes, Brooksy, pass the ball back to Mr. Famon. And she goes, oh, I'm so sorry. Mr. Famon, how will you feel when I'm famous?

• 6:58Speaker 01

  So she's always had like a burning fire in her to be famous, which is crazy, but like, it's worked. I mean, she has gotten herself on the map.

• 7:07Simon Sinek?

  I mean, she engineered this.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  She literally, she manifest, like she is the definition of manifesting.

• 7:12Simon Sinek?

  So she's living her dream, literally her childhood dream?

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:15Simon Sinek?

  It doesn't even matter how she got famous. She got famous. She's on TV. She's got a TV show. But you went into finance?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:21Simon Sinek?

  Okay, you're like good at math?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess.

• 7:26Simon Sinek?

  Well, I mean, you're in finance.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  I'm in finance, yeah.

• 7:28Simon Sinek?

  You worked for a big bank in finance?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  I worked for a big bank in finance, but I honestly went into finance because we were so insecure financially, growing up. And my dad pivoted from nonprofit work to finance, to wealth management, and kind of climbed his way with all of us out of the situation we were in. And slowly as we got older, I mean, we were still lower middle class, but we were very lower class, like at the beginning when he was in nonprofit work. So I always associated finance with stability and money. And I was like, oh my gosh, if I know finance, I'll never worry about it. Because we always worried about money growing up, like it was a constant stressor in our house. So that's why I studied finance at Georgia and got the big job at the big Wall Street bank.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Because I thought, this is going to pay me the most money and going to be the most stable.

• 8:16Simon Sinek?

  So I want to know, your sister's pursuing her dream to become famous. That's going fine?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:22Simon Sinek?

  She manages to get a TV show?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:25Simon Sinek?

  What did she pitch?

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Our origin story of the show is actually so funny. We were all out in New York, okay? Just being our crazy, normal selves, because we all go out in New York together. We met this couple, this really nice couple, and their daughter and her boyfriend. And it was like, just a really fun Long Island, like, New York couple. And I feel like Long Islanders and like Northeasterns are very similar to Cajuns, that we like to drink, we like to party. We're like very hospitable and welcoming. So we were all just like partying and having fun together, okay? As you know. And so we were just like having the most fun out. Turns out this is Jimmy Kimmel's agent. And he was like, you guys need a show. Like, we were just being, we were like, we're from Louisiana. We're making our way in New York. And he was like, you guys need a show. And we were like, what's it?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Why are you saying we need a show? And he turns out he's Jimmy Kimmel's agent.

• 9:13Simon Sinek?

  So it's just weird luck.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Weird, crazy luck. So he starts kind of like quasi representing us. And this is before I was still at Deutsche Bank as an analyst, like not even thinking anything of it. He basically pitched us to Hulu. They were like, this is an interesting story. They didn't know who any of us were, but they let us produce basically a sizzle reel, which is like 18 minutes, like a shortened pilot to pitch to the network. So we filmed that when I was probably 23, 24. Sarah Jane couldn't even drink yet, like not even legal drinking age. Brooks was still married to her husband, which is a whole nother story. Grace Anne was still in college. So we were all in a very different stage in life than actual season one was. Filmed the sizzle reel. I was so anxious, Simon, that someone at work would like find out about it.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  I was still in such like impress the boss mode as an analyst. And so we filmed it. And then we didn't really hear anything. And I honestly thought like, we didn't get it. So I was like, okay, perfect. I'm just going to continue on my easy, steady path. And then we get the call last January that was like, y'all got the show. Basically on the back of Brooks being on Dancing with the Stars, she made a huge splash in the media. Everyone's talking about her and they were like, this is actually interesting. They're all in different phases in their life now. Let's green light this thing. So they, we got the call last January. I basically had like two weeks to decide if I was going to quit my Wall Street job or pursue this show with my sisters. But everyone's like, you made this huge choice, but it was a sister show. Like they couldn't do it without me and Deutsche Bank wasn't.

• 10:43Simon Sinek?

  They could have.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  They could have, but.

• 10:45Simon Sinek?

  There's plenty of.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Plenty of drama. There's lots of drama.

• 10:49Simon Sinek?

  Brother sister shows where one with one who didn't want to do it. And you just think there's three sisters and they talk about the other sister.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  That's true. I guess we don't even have that vocabulary in our sister language. Like it's all or nothing with us.

• 11:01Simon Sinek?

  So did you feel peer pressure?

• 11:02Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Or it wasn't even an option to me. Like I was like, oh, well, of course I'll just quit my job and do this. Cause my sisters can't do it without me.

• 11:11Simon Sinek?

  But you don't have a desire to be famous or be on television?

• 11:13Speaker 01

  No. I mean, now my desires have completely shifted that I'm starting a company. So obviously it all helps the greater cause of distribution. But at the time I was so happy being behind the scenes in the background. I was modeling with them by night, like doing covers. And it was fun and creative because I like to be challenged. I'm very curious and just like to challenge my ability to do things. So I was like, oh, I checked the model box, signed with Ford, but I loved keeping those identities separate. And I think for a long time, even up until like this past year, society only rewards people who are really good at like one thing. And now people are becoming more multi hyphenate, but it's still hard to merge two completely opposite industries.

• 11:56Simon Sinek?

  Well, I mean, you're doing things that like one that requires you to be pretty.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:01Simon Sinek?

  One that requires you to be smart. One that requires you to be sort of vivacious.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:06Simon Sinek?

  I mean, they're, they're don't necessarily.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Dramatic.

• 12:08Simon Sinek?

  Dramatic. Well, they don't usually go together.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:11Simon Sinek?

  Like, you know, you're not even in a category.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  No, exactly. And like going to a boardroom, asking investors for money, knowing that they've seen the show where I'm like ripping my sister's hair apart and like being a crazy reality star, which I'm not even the craziest on the show, but it's just totally opposite industries. So it's still tricky to find my identity as a blend of all of them.

• 12:32Simon Sinek?

  Because you don't care about the fame and the television.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:36Simon Sinek?

  I mean, you're an entrepreneur. You, you, you haven't quite left finance. You started a business.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 12:41Simon Sinek?

  Marion Pip. And the goal of Marion Pip is.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  To basically create financial independence for women.

• 12:49Simon Sinek?

  To basically do the thing that you wanted to do for your family.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 12:53Simon Sinek?

  But now give that gift, give that gift to as many people as possible.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 12:57Simon Sinek?

  And to translate it because I am what people in the finance industry refer to as an idiot. No, no, no, no, no. Everybody thinks I'm joking.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Really?

• 13:07Simon Sinek?

  Everybody thinks I'm joking. I don't understand money. I'm not driven by money. And I, one of the reasons I've been a bad investor, one of the reasons, you know, like even financial managers, who I go and see in the bank, the reason I'm bad at it is because they make me feel dumb.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:24Simon Sinek?

  You know, they speak to me in jargon.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 13:26Simon Sinek?

  And I don't know whether that's because they automatically think that I understand it, or they're just going to make themselves look smart.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:31Simon Sinek?

  And when I ask questions, they, they roll their eyes or they talk to me like an idiot. And so I just choose not to work with them.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:39Simon Sinek?

  And I think a lot of people keep it to themselves. They keep it a secret that we don't understand money or don't understand investing or don't. And basic, basic stuff, like if, if everybody invested a little bit and understood compound interest even.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 13:50Simon Sinek?

  You know, which now I understand. I wish I understood it when I was 23 years old.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:55Simon Sinek?

  But the problem with the whole financial industry, or a good portion of the financial industry is they're high on themselves and they make the rest of us feel stupid.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:04Simon Sinek?

  And so some of us do it because we fear that we, they know more than us. So we better do this.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 14:10Simon Sinek?

  So we get taken advantage of.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:12Simon Sinek?

  Or we just don't do it. Cause we feel dumb.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:15Simon Sinek?

  And so I think what you're doing, you're making it simple to understand. So people can understand the basics of investing and finance so that they can provide for themselves and the people they love.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:24Simon Sinek?

  You're not starting a business to make people hard, you know, day trading and hardcore investors.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 14:29Simon Sinek?

  This is basic, basic stuff.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  The most basic. And let me ask you, like you, you said you don't even like talking about it because they make you feel dumb. And I feel like that manifestation of just holding it in and not talking about it creates such stress and anxiety. There's just so many trends about longevity and it's such a buzzword. And I feel like everyone's trying to hack their wellness. But then they have such financial stress that is ultimately contributing to their overall.

• 14:54Simon Sinek?

  I think money is the number one cause of divorce.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  It's, yeah, oh, it is. Yeah.

• 14:58Simon Sinek?

  Financial stress.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 14:59Simon Sinek?

  You're right. And people who live longer.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:01Simon Sinek?

  Um, have lower stress.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 15:04Simon Sinek?

  It's not that they just eat, you know, vegetables. It's that they have lower stress. You would think more people would spend time to understand the basics of money for no other reason than for their health.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:15Simon Sinek?

  I'm glad you're doing this.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:16Simon Sinek?

  But this is what I find interesting about you, which is you have no desire to be on television. You're only doing it because all for one, one for all. I get it. That's great.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  You get it.

• 15:25Simon Sinek?

  You find yourself doing this thing. And I'm sure at some point you're like, what am I doing?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's a lot of points like that.

• 15:33Simon Sinek?

  You know, and like the producers are editing it in a way that they can make you the good one or the bad one.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:38Simon Sinek?

  Nobody really knows the real one.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:40Simon Sinek?

  You know, it's reality ish.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 15:43Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:44Simon Sinek?

  I watched some of a show.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Art, which one? Tell me. I didn't take you for a reality guy.

• 15:49Simon Sinek?

  I'm not. And I watched a part of one of your episodes.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Oh, stop it. No, I don't even want to know which one. Was it my pitch?

• 15:57Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  I was mortified. And so also like I had worked for so long to get my licenses and on Wall Street. Talk about like, if they made you feel dumb, they made me feel.

• 16:06Simon Sinek?

  Right. You actually have a license to practice finance.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  I do. Yeah.

• 16:09Simon Sinek?

  You passed tests.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  I passed tests to practice and I was also modeling by night and I felt so dumb just being like a pretty girl on Wall Street, like honestly. And I just felt like so out of place. You know what I mean? When I was there and then to quit. And I had never been a part of this entrepreneurial world. The founder world is a completely different world than the Wall Street world and the corporate world. Like in corporate America, it's cool to climb the corporate ladder and like, it's cool to get MD and to get the next, you know, title. In founder world, it's cool to take risks, but it's not very cool to be on a reality show in the founder world. You know what I mean? So it's all different conflicting things. So I left and pitched a half baked idea. I didn't even know what Marion Pip was going to be.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  I like Love Thy Nader because season one was literally if you just have an idea and you feel like you're too dumb to execute it or feel like you're not meant to execute it. Like maybe I thought I could do something like this, but being on a reality show, I thought my LinkedIn was like torched on fire. I thought all my credibility was out of the window. So I love that Love Thy Nader showed how dumb I was in that pitch. Cause like, I literally had no idea what I was saying. I like had never given a pitch before for my own idea. I didn't even know what that was. And they were like, just do it on camera for the first time ever. You don't know what you're going to come off looking like. And so I was super nervous. And then this season it shows a much more confident version of me because I had been in front of the cameras before.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  And because I know half of it's not included, I can't control the edit at all. So like, why pretend to be someone I'm not? And the more vulnerable I am, the more likely someone like your niece could watch and be like, oh, I see myself in her. Or I could do that too.

• 17:56Simon Sinek?

  We'll be right back, but first, we want to share an ad with authenticity, brought to you by SAP. Too many people think the way to stand out in the market is to talk more about their product. SAP's David Robinson has learned that the best way to make customers feel supported is to be curious and listen.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Customers always will tell you exactly what they need as long as you're listening. It goes back to some, some other conversations you and I had about how proud technology people are about the technology. The technology becomes the main thing, not what it means to your day to day life. The ability to really listen is critical if you want to explain. We need to make sure that we're always talking about something in the context of the customer, something that's in their language, something that relates to them. I may think I know what the challenge is this customer is trying to solve. The ability to be curious of what that looks like and then distill that into something very simple to communicate is something that I enjoy doing.

• 18:58Simon Sinek?

  I want to highlight what you said, which is to be a great explainer, you have to be a great listener. It's the old sales technique of sell this pen to somebody. And what people start doing is like, I've got a great pen here. It's got ink in it and you can, you know, write an essay and you can, but nobody ever says, do you ever record things, write things down? Like they don't ask any questions. They don't listen to about somebody's life to help understand how this pen fits into your life. They start talking about the technology of the pen.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Sure. You have to really be listening all the time.

• 19:29Simon Sinek?

  Where did you get this confidence to be okay looking dumb?

• 19:33Speaker 01

  I've always been insecure to look dumb, for sure. Definitely always didn't think I was meant to be in a room that I was supposed to be in, but I think, A, like my older sister instills a lot of confidence in me, Brooks, honestly, because she is just like so confident and she'll yell at us if we say anything bad about ourselves, which I love about her. If I say like, oh, I feel fat today, or like, don't feel confident and look ugly. She's like, never say that about yourself again. Your body hears what your brain is telling you, you know, obviously.

• 20:01Simon Sinek?

  This is the person who manifests her entire life.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 20:03Simon Sinek?

  So we should pay attention.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  The power of mindset is insane. And then also like, no one's going to remember you on your tombstone for like what you almost did, or like your excuse for why you didn't do something. And so I think that my mindset shift, there's been a lot of internal work since the show came out and like watching a show where you have no control over the edit, like that is very vulnerable. And because I filmed so many hours and there were so many scenes in season one that I was super nervous about how I was going to be perceived that didn't even make the cut. And so this season I've been like, well, I don't even know if this is going to make the cut, so I might as well just like give it my all and try and be myself. And so there's like the show aspect of it, but then there's also just thinking, everyone is so worried about themselves.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Everyone's worried about themselves looking dumb. No one is actually thinking like, Simon looked so dumb today during that, like, I'm going to leave here and think of every word I said on this podcast and be like, could that be misconstrued?

• 21:00Simon Sinek?

  By the way, I do it too.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  I'm sure.

• 21:01Simon Sinek?

  I was on your podcast.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 21:03Simon Sinek?

  And you asked me a question at the end and you said, what are you interested in right now?

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, yeah.

• 21:08Simon Sinek?

  And I started, well, I'm really interested in British history right now. And I sort of insecurely shared some of the things I was learning. And I realized when I walked out is why couldn't I be like, okay, let me tell you why, you know, the Tudor period is amazing.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:24Simon Sinek?

  But I didn't, I was like, ah, do you really want to hear this?

• 21:26Speaker 01

  No, it was so great.

• 21:27Simon Sinek?

  So I go through that as well, like, you know, things that make me fascinated.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:31Simon Sinek?

  About something that I think other people, because I'm in my own head, like, nobody wants to know about.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  But we do.

• 21:38Simon Sinek?

  You know, the OG online dating.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  OG, which was the most fascinating thing ever, by the way.

• 21:43Simon Sinek?

  You'll have to go and listen to.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Listen to Growing Interest.

• 21:45Simon Sinek?

  The great name for a podcast, by the way.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 21:47Simon Sinek?

  You have to go listen to Growing Interest to hear our conversation about Anne of Cleves, the original online dating.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Profile.

• 21:54Simon Sinek?

  Profile, that's right.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  But you know, it's so funny, you were thinking that and meanwhile, probably at the exact same time, my podcast producer was like, because I was debating including that segment in each of my episodes, because I have all these growing interests. So I want to ask my guests, like, what are your growing interests?

• 22:08Simon Sinek?

  I think that's correct, you should.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  And after you left, he was like, that is an example of why we have to include that segment. Like that was the most clippable, entertaining part of the entire interview. And I was like, really? Like not all of my prepared questions?

• 22:20Simon Sinek?

  I thought other parts were.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  No, there were others that were amazing. And he really was talking about how it showed your personal interest in like a little bit of your personality of like, this is what I'm actually interested in. So I think just realizing that everyone is so worried about themselves, which everyone says all the time, but it's like, no one's going to remember you for some word you said on a podcast when you were 27, when you're dying, like.

• 22:43Simon Sinek?

  And even if they do get hung up on something you said, or they say, well, you looked dumb in that, you know? It's usually born out of their own story. That's something I've learned. When people say, nobody thinks about you, they're only thinking about themselves, like, well, sometimes they do think about you.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 22:57Simon Sinek?

  We've definitely all gone to a concert and be like, that sucked.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:01Simon Sinek?

  That person was terrible.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  True.

• 23:02Simon Sinek?

  You know, people definitely have opinions about you and your sisters.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  I'm sure they do.

• 23:06Simon Sinek?

  And even if they're fans of the show.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:08Simon Sinek?

  They have opinions about who you are.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:10Simon Sinek?

  I think what I've learned is that the opinions that others have of us are still very often born out of their own.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Insecurity.

• 23:18Simon Sinek?

  Well, not necessarily insecure, but their own narratives.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:20Simon Sinek?

  And their own stories.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:22Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Well, and not to be corny, sitting in a chair with you, but it's all about your why. I'm not creating Marion Pip to be rich or to be featured and like recognized as a founder. I'm starting Marion Pip for, to give everyone financial independence that I once hoped for.

• 23:38Simon Sinek?

  Purpose driven, yeah.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Purpose driven. So whatever the reason is, is like why you're showing up and not necessarily like what people will say about you. But I will say one like practical outcome that I've done, that I encourage my friends to do is similar to how Brooks does not let me speak bad about myself. And it sounds so small, but it's so easy. Like we're all so silly, like self-deprecating. And it's funny and like, it's great to have humor about yourself, but when you are saying every day, like, I'm so fucking ugly, or I'm so fat, or I'm so this, or like, I just look so bad, like that was fucking horrible about any performance you did, your brain and body listen and your brain fills the gaps of things it doesn't see, like, and fills the gaps of things that it doesn't understand.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  So in the past year, I was so insecure about being this new founder, because like my whole identity was Wall Street. And so when I pitched the show, I was like, first of all, don't know how it's going to be portrayed, don't know how I'm going to come off. I don't know if this is going to be successful or not. Like, it's not like I'm talking in retrospect, like most founders do of how well I did. I'm like, people are actually saying me start this, now there's pressure. And I used to be, wake up every day and be like, I can't do this, basically. Like, and I'm insecure to even say that out loud, but I did. I didn't think I could do it. I got a lot of opinions, which I feel like as a female founder, it's really easy to listen to a lot of people and a lot of opinions from Wall Street tech, because I was new to starting a fintech app. So I would just listen to everyone and I'd be like, oh, well, this investor said I should do this, so I'm going to do that.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  And then someone else would tell me something different and I'd completely pivot. Oh, because their accolades are a little bit better. And then one of my mentors was like, your advantage as a female founder is that you think differently than all of these people.

• 25:16Simon Sinek?

  True.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  You know, and so like, you really need to trust your intuition, like trust yourself a little bit. So I would actually, like so corny, look in the mirror in the morning and be like, I'm a founder, I'm a CEO, like Marion Pip is going to the moon. Like, I would literally say that in the mirror every day and I felt so corny doing it, because I'm not, usually not about all that.

• 25:35Simon Sinek?

  It's like a poster with, you know, a little kitten hanging.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh my gosh, this is embarrassing, but it actually transformed my confidence. And I would meditate and like, try to be more conscious of my negative thoughts and notice when I thought them and notice when I felt insecure. So a lot of that, like repetitive rewiring actually contributed, I think, to me being much more confident.

• 25:56Simon Sinek?

  I like female founders because they tend to be more purpose driven. Men are, tend to be more competitive. And so for them, it's about, look at the amount of funding I got. You know, it's like, yeah, but your business is stupid.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:08Simon Sinek?

  You know? We're changing the world. I got funding.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Through efficiency.

• 26:12Simon Sinek?

  Through my pizza delivery app, you know? Men, it's about like how much. And women I find tend to be a little more like, no, no, but who's this going to help? You know? Sarah Blakely, you know? Very, very, very purpose driven, you know? Carissa Bodnar, you know, from Thrive Cosmetics, Sarah Blakely, obviously from Spanx, very purpose driven, you know? And there's a list of these female founders who, they're not as famous.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:33Simon Sinek?

  And yet their businesses tend to do very well.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:36Simon Sinek?

  And they tend to be smarter about who they take money from and who they don't take money from. In fact, both Chris and Sarah, no money from anybody.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Really?

• 26:44Simon Sinek?

  Yep.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  I didn't realize they were both bootstrapped.

• 26:47Simon Sinek?

  Sarah Blakely bootstrapped her company and owned 100% of the stock when she sold it.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Holy shit.

• 26:53Simon Sinek?

  Carissa, yeah, I think Carissa's the same.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Well, and you know, the biggest consumer in the US and the biggest spenders are women.

• 26:59Simon Sinek?

  I get this question of an uncomfortably high amount, where a founder will say to me, you know, what do you do when your investor is putting pressure on you to make decisions that you know are bad for the business, but you know, serve their short-term interest? Like, what do I do? And I always give them the same answer. It was like, you took the money. It's like, like when you are meeting investors. Did you choose the investor who believed in you, even if they gave you less? Or did you choose the famous investor who gave you more?

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:24Simon Sinek?

  Like, was it your ego that you took that money?

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:26Simon Sinek?

  And everybody says, I'm like, careful, careful, because investors, their business model.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:32Simon Sinek?

  They have to, they have to sell you.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:34Simon Sinek?

  For their business model to work.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:36Simon Sinek?

  You know, so between three to five, five to seven years, you're gonna start having pressure.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:41Simon Sinek?

  And they're like, no, no, no, my guy's different. I'm like, mm, no, it's not.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:44Simon Sinek?

  The short-termism. And I think women tend to be more long-term focused automatically.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 27:49Simon Sinek?

  The challenge you'll have is, and every purpose-driven founder, male and female, has this challenge, which is the pressures will be overwhelming, especially if you have investors.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:59Simon Sinek?

  And do you have the wherewithal to keep it going? Like, Steve Jobs was purpose-driven, never gave out dividends.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:05Simon Sinek?

  Didn't care.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:06Simon Sinek?

  And he told investors, if you like me, invest in me. If you don't like me, don't invest in me.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:09Simon Sinek?

  Like, what do you want from me?

• 28:10Speaker 01

  That's the greatest, yeah.

• 28:11Simon Sinek?

  And like, that takes, you know, balls of steel.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 28:15Simon Sinek?

  Looking back at my own career, the stupidest decisions I made.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 28:18Simon Sinek?

  The bad decisions I made, the wrong decisions I made, the wrong advice that I followed, every single time. It's because I thought somebody was smarter than me, had more experience than me, knew something that I didn't know. I better listen to them because they know more and I'm dumb. And even though it doesn't feel right, ah, they know more than me. And close to a hundred percent of the time, I wish I trusted my gut. Close to a hundred percent of the time. Because your gut isn't telling you what to do. Your gut is, is checking your values. And so you might get advice that you may or may not agree with, but your gut is saying, this aligns with your values.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:56Simon Sinek?

  This aligns with your why.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:58Simon Sinek?

  And if it doesn't, find a different way.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Is it the same as intuition? Because?

• 29:03Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, sure.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Right? Because we were given our intuition as like, old-time homo sapiens for a reason.

• 29:09Simon Sinek?

  Correct.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  You know?

• 29:09Simon Sinek?

  You know, cavemen sort of were evaluating, can I trust this person because my survival depends on it?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 29:14Simon Sinek?

  And I'm, I can trust people who share my values.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:17Simon Sinek?

  And if we're values-aligned, this will work. And if we're not values-aligned, you might just be stabbing me in the back. And so, yeah, we, we are gifted with this and we don't trust it enough.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  And I don't want to generalize that all women, you know, tend to suppress their intuition. But I feel like we historically have been taught to suppress our intuition.

• 29:34Simon Sinek?

  It's a cultural thing.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  It's a cultural thing, like even being polite to strangers, I feel like. Like, I listened to My Favorite Murder, this other podcast, and one of their things is fuck politeness, because women have been taught to be polite and it's gotten them killed, you know? And it's like, if your intuition is telling you that something's off, then it probably is. And when it comes to raising, I think in the past year, you can't run a company or make any decisions for yourself unless you believe in yourself first. Otherwise, you're just gonna be listening to other people's advice.

• 30:06Simon Sinek?

  And other people operating.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  For them.

• 30:08Simon Sinek?

  Unless it's a mentor or a friend with no interest.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:12Simon Sinek?

  And I, that's why I think mentors should be outside of your.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 30:15Simon Sinek?

  Your business.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:16Simon Sinek?

  Like, there's a difference between a mentor and a champion.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:18Simon Sinek?

  A champion is somebody who's pushing you, helping you, but they, they're either in your company.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:24Simon Sinek?

  If you work for a company, you know, that might be a senior executive. And you expect a champion to like, hey, put in a good word for me.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:31Simon Sinek?

  Where a true mentor has no ability to influence anything.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:35Simon Sinek?

  They're not investors, they have no financial interest, they don't know your boss.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:38Simon Sinek?

  They have no interest whatsoever and no ability to help you, other than just give you advice because they care about you and love you.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:45Simon Sinek?

  That's it. That's a real mentor.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:47Simon Sinek?

  I think you're right. I think we do, we do all these things.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. And I think you're, we're having this conversation at the perfect time, because me and my business partner, we're about to start raising our seed round. And right now, it's really easy. There's so many VCs. Private markets are booming. And I remember when we first, sidebar, I first met you and I was telling you about Marion Pip. You were like, what do you want to do, like, with the company? And I was like, I guess exit, because everyone was telling me that's, that's what you have to do. That's the end goal. And you were like, do not build this company with the goal of exiting, or you're gonna lose your why and your purpose. And like, that's stuck with me before I even knew you, from the very beginning, when anyone asked. And it's honestly intimidating when I say, like, I'm not building this to exit, because investors don't even want anything to do with it.

• 31:32Simon Sinek?

  If you say that, it turns investors off.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, which is good.

• 31:36Simon Sinek?

  You want to turn off the investors.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Right, who don't.

• 31:38Simon Sinek?

  Who only want the exit.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  That's so true.

• 31:41Simon Sinek?

  Mark Zuckerberg is still working for the company he founded. Michael Dell is still working for the company he founded.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:47Simon Sinek?

  You know, Sergey Brin and Larry Page, who founded Google.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:49Simon Sinek?

  They've moved on since, but they had one job their whole life.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:52Simon Sinek?

  You know, Steve Jobs started at Apple when he was 22, 23 years old, you know?

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like my mom when she's like, which this is like so bad, but she would say like, whatever you wear out is gonna attract that kind of guy. It's like the same type of thing.

• 32:05Simon Sinek?

  So if you're saying, I'm building it to exit, you're gonna attract all the money who likes the exit.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 32:09Simon Sinek?

  If you say, I never plan on exiting.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:12Simon Sinek?

  And so the other question is like, why do you need to raise money? Do you actually need outside money? So I, I think of everything in terms of cost.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 32:19Simon Sinek?

  Right? By raising money.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:21Simon Sinek?

  That means you get to build a business faster, because you can, you can afford more staff.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:27Simon Sinek?

  And you can have three or four priorities at the same time.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:32Simon Sinek?

  If I don't take money.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:33Simon Sinek?

  I can do one thing at a time. So one is not better or worse, it's just different ways of doing it. So what's the cost? Well, the cost of doing four things at the same time means that I have to take money from somebody else, which means I'm gonna sell some of my business and somebody else is gonna have influence.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:47Simon Sinek?

  Not taking someone's money means the cost is.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:50Simon Sinek?

  I'm gonna grow slower.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:52Simon Sinek?

  But I don't have any outside influence. I just have to get better at prioritizing.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:57Simon Sinek?

  I personally chose slower. Why are you raising money?

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:01Simon Sinek?

  Do, do you actually need it?

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:04Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 33:05Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess I could, like, I'm raising money to hire more people, basically.

• 33:08Simon Sinek?

  Okay, again, how many people do you actually need? I hate it when companies, when founders say, and I'm like, so tell me about your company. They're like, we're hypergrowth.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:17Simon Sinek?

  You know, we're a gazelle, okay?

• 33:20Speaker 01

  What does that even mean?

• 33:21Simon Sinek?

  That means a hypergrowth company.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Oh, I like, literally didn't even know that. And I'm raising money.

• 33:25Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  A gazelle.

• 33:27Simon Sinek?

  Gazelles get eaten.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Facts.

• 33:30Simon Sinek?

  Elephants don't get eaten.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:32Simon Sinek?

  And they're big and slow.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Yep. Slow and steady wins the race.

• 33:35Simon Sinek?

  Show me one article. Pick a legitimate magazine, Harvard Business Review.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:39Simon Sinek?

  Inc. magazine, I don't care. Give me one article in any reputable publication.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:45Simon Sinek?

  That says that hypergrowth is good for long-term value of the company. And the answer is zero.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 33:52Simon Sinek?

  Hypergrowth is good for the investors, because that's their business model.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, because you don't get an article for saying, like, we had, you get an article for saying you raised 30 million, more than you would get an article saying you have 30 million in revenue.

• 34:06Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Which is so bizarre to me.

• 34:08Simon Sinek?

  Took us 10 years to get 30 million in revenue.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 34:11Simon Sinek?

  Produces no articles.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But you raised 30 million, meaning you give away most of the company, and that's like every headline.

• 34:19Simon Sinek?

  So I'm gonna go back to what I said before, which is, why are you raising money?

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:24Simon Sinek?

  How much do you actually need to raise?

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:27Simon Sinek?

  Make sure that you always maintain a controlling interest, that no one can fire you ever.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:32Simon Sinek?

  I've seen founders get fired from their own companies that they founded many times.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  That is so terrifying.

• 34:37Simon Sinek?

  There's this one founder I'm thinking of in particular, she was a female founder, mission-driven. Her numbers were better than her primary competition, which was a big-funded company and like a huge corporation. And she did better numbers than them, right? Her investors were putting huge pressure on her. They wouldn't let her spend money on things that were good for the company.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Right, important.

• 34:55Simon Sinek?

  They wanted her to run a little too lean. And they kept putting pressure on her, and they eventually fired her.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Stop it.

• 35:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  That makes me want to cry for her. Oh, my God.

• 35:04Simon Sinek?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  We need like a female boot camp, female-founded boot camp from Simon Sinek.

• 35:10Simon Sinek?

  I mean.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Like, literally.

• 35:11Simon Sinek?

  I'm a huge fan of female founders.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Because you're mission-driven. And I feel like there's, females are better investors, because we're, we're long-term, we're not impulsive. And I don't know, I don't know if like, when male investors get in on female-founded businesses, they just think that they know all, because they're all hypergrowth.

• 35:28Simon Sinek?

  I've lost money on investments, because there were founders that I loved them so much, and I invested in them. And the business didn't work. And they came to me, they're like, I'm so sorry, I don't think this is gonna work.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:40Simon Sinek?

  And I say to them every single time, I'm like, I'd never invest more money than I can afford to lose.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:44Simon Sinek?

  Rule number one.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:46Simon Sinek?

  I understand, it's a bit of a gamble.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:48Simon Sinek?

  I know what investing is.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:50Simon Sinek?

  I believed in you.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:52Simon Sinek?

  It didn't work out.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:54Simon Sinek?

  You don't owe me anything.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:56Simon Sinek?

  And when they would call me for advice, I'd be like, here's my advice.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:59Simon Sinek?

  But the decision is yours. If you don't follow my advice, that's fine, it's your business.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:03Simon Sinek?

  And I'll always tell you what I think.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:05Simon Sinek?

  But then you have to make your own decision. I'll never force you to make a decision, even if I have a vested interest in you making one decision versus another.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 36:11Simon Sinek?

  Because I'm investing in you.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 36:13Simon Sinek?

  And the idea.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  And full circle back to, you asked what encouraged my confidence from season one as in the past year. One of the biggest contributors to my confidence has been being a CEO and being forced to make decisions quickly. Like, I don't have time to ask a million people, what should I do? If my back's against a wall and I have to make a decision. And I think that just being, like, making a decision, realizing that it goes correctly and right, and like, patting myself on the back and having gratitude, and like, reflecting on my wins as well, instead of just constantly looking forward at the next thing, next thing, next thing, has really helped my confidence.

• 36:51Simon Sinek?

  I want to go back to something that you said before about, I can't do this.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:55Simon Sinek?

  I think what we do is, we start making our doubts our identity.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 37:01Simon Sinek?

  Right? And simple grammar changes can help.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:07Simon Sinek?

  Right? I can't do this becomes, this is really difficult.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:11Simon Sinek?

  Right? How's building a business? It's really difficult.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:14Simon Sinek?

  And you can go to bed at night going, this is the hardest thing I've ever done.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:17Simon Sinek?

  That's fine. I can't do this?

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Not acceptable.

• 37:21Simon Sinek?

  Not acceptable, because that's a limiting belief.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  It is.

• 37:23Simon Sinek?

  Instead of saying, I suck at this, saying, I had, today was a bad day.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:27Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Or I have a lot to learn.

• 37:29Simon Sinek?

  Just simply making things, events or behaviors.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 37:33Simon Sinek?

  Or small things, I have found for me, has helped. And I learned, I learned the hard way.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, it's so much easier to be pulled down from a pedestal than to like, pull someone up. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's so easy to listen to people cutting you down and believe them, and fall into the trap of saying, I just can't do this.

• 37:52Simon Sinek?

  There was this guy that would write in to us.

• 37:58Simon Sinek?

  And say, you're a hypocrite. I read your latest blog. You're such a hypocrite. You're an idiot. And we would like have a meeting about it. And be like, how should we respond? And then somebody from my team would respond. He goes, oh, and Simon's too good to respond himself. And like, you're such a hypocrite, you know? And so then we'd like have another meeting and be like, okay, should I call him? And then I'd call and be like, hey, and I'd talk him and explain my point of view. It was like, oh, I see. You're, you're okay. You're not a hypocrite. Okay. I'm like, oh, okay. And then like six weeks later, I'd post something. He's like, you're a hypocrite. You're an idiot.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:27Simon Sinek?

  And we go through the whole cycle again. And it occurred to me that I was investing so much time and energy with this one guy. Who was saying horrible things because I was so worried that he misunderstood me and that I wanted to correct the record. And I was ignoring.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:41Simon Sinek?

  All of the people like, thank you. This helped me. This work has helped me build a business. This work has helped me, you know,

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:47Simon Sinek?

  find confidence. And I was ignoring all of those people. While having meetings about the others. I literally just said, why don't I take all the same amount of time?

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:55Simon Sinek?

  And why don't I give it to the people who are supportive?

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:58Simon Sinek?

  And I'm just going to ignore the negative ones.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:00Simon Sinek?

  And so literally, we would just do random phone calls and be like, hey, I saw your post about that the work is helping you. I just wanted to call and say thanks.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:08Simon Sinek?

  And so one of the things that helped my work grow was I said, thank you to the people who believed in me.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 39:12Simon Sinek?

  And started ignoring the people who didn't believe in me. And you recognize that there's way more people who believe in you than

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 39:19Simon Sinek?

  the NARS that don't.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  Why is that? That we only pay attention to the negative?

• 39:23Simon Sinek?

  Because it hurts.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:24Simon Sinek?

  Because it hurts. We love to complain.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  It's, why is it like, is it a dopamine hit or something?

• 39:29Simon Sinek?

  I don't know. I think we love, I think that we have this sense of justice, I think.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 39:33Simon Sinek?

  I don't know. I don't know what it is.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Or we expect things to go right and well. And so if things are going correctly, then like, you don't notice when you're healthy.

• 39:42Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Your health. And then if something happens, or if you have a health scare, then all you wish for is your health. Nothing else matters. You know what I mean?

• 39:48Simon Sinek?

  That's true. We screw things up as a company all the time.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 39:51Simon Sinek?

  And if somebody's angry, we'll do our best to put it right.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:55Simon Sinek?

  And, but I want people to give me feedback so that we can make it right for other people, even if I can't make it right for you.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yes. I actually have been meaning to call you about like separately because I love receiving feedback because I love to grow and learn and whatever. One thing that I know I need to work on immediately before I hire is giving feedback. I don't know if I'm just such an empath. I don't want anyone to think I'm mad at them, but especially like young workers who are coming on, who just don't get the vision or they're just like time and again messing up. I find myself just, let me just go in and fix it and let me just do it. And it's quicker and easier. I don't have to have a conversation. I like struggle with giving feedback so hard.

• 40:32Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  But it's like worse for them. It's mean to give feedback, but sometimes.

• 40:37Simon Sinek?

  No, it's, there's difference.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  It's mean to not give feedback. Sorry.

• 40:40Simon Sinek?

  There's difference between nice and kind.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:42Simon Sinek?

  Right? It's nice to tell people they're doing a great job all the time.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:47Simon Sinek?

  But is it kind?

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Not kind.

• 40:49Simon Sinek?

  Right? But it is kind to be like, hey bud.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Someone else is going to fire you.

• 40:54Simon Sinek?

  This is not good.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:55Simon Sinek?

  Right? Now, it doesn't feel nice, but it's definitely kind.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:59Simon Sinek?

  And so feedback is kind.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:01Simon Sinek?

  Now, the mistake that most people make with feedback is we tend to give feedback the way we like to receive it. But that's not necessarily the way others like to receive it.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 41:11Simon Sinek?

  And so the hard part about giving feedback is learning how somebody else can receive feedback. Because it's, you feel like you're like, what? Gave the feedback, checked the box, done, did the feedback.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 41:20Simon Sinek?

  But did they hear the feedback?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:22Simon Sinek?

  Were they able to process and internalize the feedback? That's a different conversation.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:25Simon Sinek?

  So learning how to adapt the way you give feedback so that somebody is, can hear the feedback.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 41:32Simon Sinek?

  Some people like it. Just tell me, just tell me.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:35Simon Sinek?

  Tell me blunt, like me.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:36Simon Sinek?

  Please don't give me a feedback sandwich.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:38Simon Sinek?

  The nice thing that's really generic and then the like, the really specific thing that you hate and the really generic nice thing.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  The classic sandwich.

• 41:44Simon Sinek?

  Please stop. Just tell me what you, just tell me what you need to do.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  What, what can I fix?

• 41:46Simon Sinek?

  Like, what is it? You know, but some people need that. Some people want a feedback sandwich.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you have feedback sessions with your team like once a month, once a quarter?

• 41:55Simon Sinek?

  The answer is we should. We are inconsistent. We know we need to get better at it, but we are getting better at scheduling coaching calls.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Coaching calls.

• 42:03Simon Sinek?

  And these are private opportunities for feedback.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:06Simon Sinek?

  For growth and feedback. Yeah. We've also developed a culture of where people are very comfortable receiving criticism publicly.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. How did you develop that?

• 42:15Simon Sinek?

  So it's a story I tell very often and I'm, and I'm happy to keep talking about it because it's the most wonderful, powerful, easy to implement thing in the world.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Please.

• 42:21Simon Sinek?

  I learned it from the air force. It's called Spears. So if somebody works on a presentation for Marion Pip.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:28Simon Sinek?

  They might work two weeks to put their PowerPoint together and then they come to the big meeting.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:33Simon Sinek?

  And they give their PowerPoint and at the end of the PowerPoint, they go, huh?

• 42:36Speaker 01

  What do you think?

• 42:36Simon Sinek?

  Pretty good, right? And you can't really say anything mean. And if you point out an issue with the PowerPoint or the, one of the details or one of the ideas, they get defensive or they get upset, whatever it is, right? Because you're criticizing their work.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:49Simon Sinek?

  The air force was different. Same scenario. Somebody put together their PowerPoint, spent two weeks putting it together. They're show up at the big presentation. I'm in the briefing. I'm in the room. And at the end of the presentation, the person who presents says Spears? And they basically said, here's my presentation. Throw Spears at it to help me make it better.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 43:09Simon Sinek?

  And so we implemented Spears here. So now it's very common. It's very common at our company when anybody says, hey, I've got an idea and they'll present their idea and they go Spears? Or somebody will be like, I got a spear for you. And then people like bring it on. Very easy to implement. And what we've developed is this culture where basically

• 43:28Speaker 01

  No hard feelings.

• 43:28Simon Sinek?

  criticizing somebody's work is now recognizes, it's not like I think I'm smarter or you're not smart. It's that I have some ideas that can make the work better because we're all in this together.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:38Simon Sinek?

  And so we throw Spears all the time.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 43:41Simon Sinek?

  Every presentation gets Spears. People start saying things like, so, okay, I, this is going to need some Spears, but like.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Let me know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:51Simon Sinek?

  And somebody will be like, it's not really a spear, but I've got a toothpick, you know?

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, love.

• 43:55Simon Sinek?

  And it's, yeah, it's just part of the culture now.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  And did you like, from when you implemented Spears, from before to when you implemented it to now?

• 44:03Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  I want to know what you saw in like efficiency in the company, but also did anyone leave? Like, could anyone not take that?

• 44:10Simon Sinek?

  No, no, no. So before we were pretty traditional, like, you know, hey, it's not a problem. I have, I have a few notes. You did amazing work, but like this one little thing that I can make it better. If you're open to it, if you're open to it, you know?

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:23Simon Sinek?

  Uh, and some people like you'd give them criticism. They're like, I can't do anything right.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:27Simon Sinek?

  It's like, no, just had a little.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:30Simon Sinek?

  Feedback, you know? And the minute we implemented Spears, that kind of evaporated almost immediately.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 44:35Simon Sinek?

  And everybody's kind of like, it's, am I wrong? I mean, like, that's right, right? Yeah.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  It's amazing. No one's like a bully if everyone does it.

• 44:43Simon Sinek?

  Above a spear.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:44Simon Sinek?

  So I can present.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:46Simon Sinek?

  And before people would be afraid to give me feedback. And now somebody will be like, I got a spear and I go, bring it on.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Bring it on.

• 44:54Simon Sinek?

  I'm welcoming of the Spears too.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  That's incredible. Okay. Well, Marion Pip team, if you're listening, we're implementing Spears. I'm getting like such a bootcamp from, on like my founder journey, which is so awesome. Like I want this type of advice. It's just hard to listen to my own intuition as well. Sometimes, and I think over the past year, as I've built my confidence, as I've made those tweaks to your point, someone on my team was like, we're so fucked the other day. And it was like a minor inconvenience. And she said, we're so fucked. And I was like, please don't ever say that again, because that creates a fight or flight.

• 45:25Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Mode in my body.

• 45:26Simon Sinek?

  Or for the people sitting next to you.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  For the people sitting next to you. And it just immediately makes you think that there's no solution. So instead of we're so fucked, like what's step one? And that's what I love about being a founder is like, you can take steps to find the right answer. And it's problem solving and problem solving is so fun. It's like what we're made to do.

• 45:44Simon Sinek?

  And I think that's one of the biggest responsibilities of founders or any leader, quite frankly, or actually anybody on a team.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:50Simon Sinek?

  Which is correct the language.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:52Simon Sinek?

  Listen for the language that creates false narratives, creates limiting beliefs.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Anxiety.

• 45:58Simon Sinek?

  And simply interrupt the language.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that takes a certain level of consciousness.

• 46:03Simon Sinek?

  And it makes people smile.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:05Simon Sinek?

  Like, oh my God, we're fucked. No, this is just an inconvenience.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:08Simon Sinek?

  Like this will just be difficult for about a month.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Right. And you know, it also helps with that is gratitude practice. It puts things into perspective.

• 46:15Simon Sinek?

  I think that's true.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  We're so fucked. But then I was like, at least we're working for ourselves and not on Wall Street right now. And we can make this decision to make the change and do this. And it's like, oh my God, you're right. Like we're in sunny California. We can go on a walk and figure it out instead of like sit at our desk. So gratitude of the situation can also put things into perspective.

• 46:32Simon Sinek?

  I think that's right.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  I mean, like optimism is quite literally a strategy. Like it is.

• 46:38Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. I think gratitude's the strategy.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  It's just, yeah.

• 46:40Simon Sinek?

  I think gratitude's the strategy and perspective, right? I think what gratitude does is puts everything in perspective.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. You have so many episodes, like so many interesting people on your show, which is why I was so honored. Of course, before Simon, you know, I was fighting the, what value could I add to his podcast?

• 46:56Simon Sinek?

  Really?

• 46:57Speaker 01

  You know, because there's always that.

• 46:58Simon Sinek?

  Do you want to know why I invited you?

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Tell me why, please.

• 47:00Simon Sinek?

  Why do you think I invited you?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  I think you invited me because I invited you on yours and we're friends and you're giving me.

• 47:06Simon Sinek?

  So you think I'm doing this, it's like, well, she invited me on hers. I should probably have her on mine.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Kind of, yeah. Quid pro quo?

• 47:12Simon Sinek?

  I've been on other people's podcasts that never came on mine.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Honestly, like I, I think you were just like my friend and you were like, I'll give her a chance to like talk about her story, Marion Pip. But I still fight every single day, that imposter syndrome of like, well, I don't even have a company yet, or I'm not an expert or a doctor or a scientist or I wasn't in jail and like, didn't have all of these cool.

• 47:31Simon Sinek?

  It can be.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  I could, yeah, I know. It's not too late. I'm only 27. I have plenty of years to be arrested. But it's always like, no, my, every podcast, recently I was on like a Forbes podcast and I was like, why are you inviting me on? And they were like, we want to hear from you. Like, so it's a constant battle with myself.

• 47:48Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Of even like, I shouldn't even be asking myself that. But of course it, it comes up. So why'd you invite me? Tell me.

• 47:54Simon Sinek?

  So.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Stroke my ego.

• 47:55Simon Sinek?

  When I go on a stage. I never. Tell people what my credentials are or how many books I've written. I tell them nothing. I just launch into my content, right? And the reason is, I don't have to prove that I'm worth being on that stage because somebody else has already made that decision. So either they're an idiot and they made a huge mistake, which is always possible, or they know what they're doing.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 48:20Simon Sinek?

  And so I have to just trust that the person who invited me has a reason for me being there. So I don't have to prove to the audience that I have value on the stage. Somebody else has already done that work. And if you have an issue, don't take it up with me.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:31Simon Sinek?

  I didn't invite myself.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:33Simon Sinek?

  If you don't like me, if you think I'm an idiot, take it up with them.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:36Simon Sinek?

  Right?

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 48:37Simon Sinek?

  So that's number one, which is that I'm not accountable.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Love. Yeah.

• 48:40Simon Sinek?

  I'm not accountable whether you like me or not. That decision's been made by somebody else or whether I have value or not.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:46Simon Sinek?

  I do have accountability if you like me or not, but I don't have accountability if you just disagree.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:50Simon Sinek?

  Right? That's somebody else has made that decision. So number one, you have to trust that I've made the decision and

• 48:55Speaker 01

  So true.

• 48:55Simon Sinek?

  And so you don't have to worry about it. That's number one. Number two, the actual reason I wanted you to come on. It's because I think that you are the new breed of entrepreneur that I think people need to hear from. I think we're all exhausted from hearing from traditionally men who talk about their fundraising and their this and their that and their valuations. And yet they can't speak with any kind of

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Vulnerability.

• 49:23Simon Sinek?

  Well, that for sure, but they can't speak about what value they're trying to give to the world.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:27Simon Sinek?

  At all. You have no desire to be on TV. You have no desire to be famous and yet you recognize that being on TV and having some fame gives you the ability to spread your message more efficiently. And the minute you made that connection, you realized, huh, I can leverage this for good.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:48Simon Sinek?

  And the reason you're starting Marion Pip is to teach people things that I wish I had Marion Pip. You know? I, by the way, I plan on it.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:58Simon Sinek?

  Right? I plan on using Marion Pip because even though I'm not in your demographic.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:03Simon Sinek?

  I'm in your psychographic.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:04Simon Sinek?

  It's an industry that makes me feel stupid and I know the importance of this stuff. And I wish somebody would talk to me like a human and not like a target.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's everyone's targeted.

• 50:14Simon Sinek?

  So you're a young entrepreneur and I, and I want to see you succeed. I want people to benefit from your product. And I want more entrepreneurs to be like you. And so I think you're a counterbalance to the traditional entrepreneurial, you know, sort of story.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:28Simon Sinek?

  And that's one of the reasons I sort of, if I put any pressure on you, it's to do things the way you think they need to be done. Like, and do you need big investors and do you need the famous this and the famous that? Do you need to grow at the speed of light, you know? So my question is, is why are you growing at the speed of light? Like, what benefit does that have to your team, to the people you're serving? You know, what I'd rather you do is build a really, really, really good product. And if it's a little slower than you originally intended.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:56Simon Sinek?

  As long as it's a really, really good product. And that's what I've learned. Like every stage of my product is not perfect.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:02Simon Sinek?

  It's constantly a state of improvement. We, when, minute we launch something, we're like, this is amazing. And a week later, we're like, this really is not amazing.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Same.

• 51:09Simon Sinek?

  You know? And then we fix it and we're like, this is amazing.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:13Simon Sinek?

  And then a week later, we're like, this is not amazing. And you just realize like, there's always more to do.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:19Simon Sinek?

  And I'm so grateful to everybody who signs up for Leaderful.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:23Simon Sinek?

  Because like you think it's great. And I was like, oh, I've got so much work to do, you know?

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Right, of course.

• 51:28Simon Sinek?

  And the cool thing is, I invite people to come on a journey with me. It's gonna get better and better and better and better and better. Why? Because that's how I'm driven. And I just think you're very important to the entrepreneurial world.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Well, thank you.

• 51:41Simon Sinek?

  That's why I wanted you on.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. I feel like I'm learning more and more, especially with just putting every mistake and like putting my whole self out there on season two, which is much, I feel like I've been much more vulnerable in season two. If nothing else, I just want to communicate to future young entrepreneurial women that you can do everything that you want to do. And also like, even if you don't want to be famous and you don't want all of that world, like there is leverage that can be had to do good. You know, I have this platform now and we went to the Arctic for women's health and we can do all these things because we have this platform. So I appreciate you seeing that. And sometimes I just overlook that. And I'm like, oh, well, why am I here? And you're like, you're here because you don't know why you're here. And a lot of people don't know why they're in the rooms that they're in, you know?

• 52:24Simon Sinek?

  I also think you're a good counterbalance to the influencer culture, you know, which is young people want to be influencers. Do you know the term selling out?

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:32Simon Sinek?

  Like, oh, my God, he's such a sellout.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:34Simon Sinek?

  Well, you know, more and more people, your generation, when I say sellout, they go, they don't know what it means.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Really?

• 52:39Simon Sinek?

  And when I explain it, well, it means that somebody like starts cashing in on what they've built with brands that may or may not align with their values, but they're doing it for the cash.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:49Simon Sinek?

  And then people go, yeah.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 52:53Simon Sinek?

  Like, the term selling out is not pejorative.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:58Simon Sinek?

  It's actually seen as the model.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, the goal.

• 53:01Simon Sinek?

  Influencer culture is get as many followers as possible and then cash out.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:06Simon Sinek?

  Then get as many sponsors and micro sponsors as you can get. Make it last as long as you can and then say, you know? And like the whole influencer model, the whole influencer model is gain popularity in any way and make money.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Whatever it takes.

• 53:22Simon Sinek?

  And then monetize, like that, that children know what the term monetize means.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  It's so sad.

• 53:26Simon Sinek?

  Then monetize that, those followers, monetize that fame. And what I like about you, you're the, the reason I say you're the counterbalance to the influencer culture is you have the followers, you've got the fame, you've got the TV show on Hulu, and you're leveraging it for service and for good.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Well, my goal with Marion Pip is to give people that financial stability so that they can choose brands that they align with. Because freelancers, I understand why they're selling out. Like, it is stressful not having a steady paycheck come in. And that's why I started it originally for freelancers. Now it's pivoted more to anyone with kind of money anxiety, which tends to be women. But if you're not making a steady paycheck and you're forgetting to invoice and your income is different every single month, then you're just gonna say yes to any brand.

• 54:09Simon Sinek?

  This is such a good point. I never thought about that. Which is sometimes people are forced to sell out because of the inconsistency of the income. When you say yes to things you know are wrong.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:20Simon Sinek?

  Because I think a real sellout thinks that it's all good.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:23Simon Sinek?

  The reluctant sellout.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:25Simon Sinek?

  Oh, I like that.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:26Simon Sinek?

  Because there's sellouts and then there's the reluctant sellout.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  It's almost like

• 54:29Simon Sinek?

  Because sellouts are sellouts.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Back against a wall. But yeah, sellouts are sellouts. There are still those. Those still exist.

• 54:33Simon Sinek?

  But I love this concept of the reluctant sellout.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  The reluctant sellout.

• 54:36Simon Sinek?

  Which is I have to, but I don't want to.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 54:38Simon Sinek?

  Because that means values alignment.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 54:40Simon Sinek?

  And we like people with values.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  We like people with values. So people with values who are reluctant sellout maybe. Like Marion Pip is for them to help with that money anxiety.

• 54:47Simon Sinek?

  Okay, I have a couple of questions here. Okay, you left the corporate world and you left behind structure and routine and predictability to forge your own path as a founder and reality star. How did you adjust to the identity shift?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  I think I'm still adjusting to the identity shift. I think when I was on Wall Street, I completely separated my influencer model identity to my Wall Street corporate identity. And since I left to be on a reality show, I go into boardrooms and they might not have watched the show, but they know about it. And then I go to an influencer event with my sisters and they don't know that I'm a fintech founder. So when it's like, what do you do? I am starting to get better at saying, oh, I'm a, I'm a founder. I'm a founder, I'm a founder, because that's who I want to be known as. For a long time, if I was in a room with influencers or models, I'd say, oh, I'm a model or I'm talent or I'm on the show. I wouldn't even mention Marion Pip. Or if I was in a boardroom, I wouldn't even mention my distribution or Love Thy Nader because I wanted to be taken seriously as a founder.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  And now I'm realizing the strength in being all of it. And who do I want to be and who do I want to show up as? And recently, for me, my confidence, that has been founder. So if someone asks me what I do, I lead with, I'm a founder.

• 56:00Simon Sinek?

  Can I add?

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Please add. Always add.

• 56:02Simon Sinek?

  You're a door opener.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  I'm a door opener.

• 56:04Simon Sinek?

  I'm an inviter.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  I'm an inviter.

• 56:06Simon Sinek?

  What do you do? I'm a door opener. I'm an inviter. What does that mean? Well, there are many ways in which I get to invite people in to discover that they're capable of more than they thought. One of the ways I do it is as a founder.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  I love that. One is as a podcaster. One is as a friend.

• 56:22Simon Sinek?

  So if you're at an influencer event, you'd say, one of the ways I do that is as an influencer, which is why I'm here.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Which is why I'm here.

• 56:28Simon Sinek?

  Or if you're in a boardroom, say, one of the ways I do it is as a founder, which is why I'm here.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 56:33Simon Sinek?

  You don't want to define yourself by something you do because

• 56:37Speaker 01

  You're why.

• 56:38Simon Sinek?

  20 years from now, you will have founded something 20 years ago. And you still want to be a founder 20 years on?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Probably not. And founder, I feel like is a little diluted now.

• 56:46Simon Sinek?

  It's, it's, it's current, right?

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:48Simon Sinek?

  So from this day on to the day you die.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  I'm an inviter.

• 56:51Simon Sinek?

  You're, you're, you invite people in, make them feel safe so that they can discover what they're capable of.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 56:57Simon Sinek?

  Whether you call that an inviter or a door opener, there's many ways you can say it.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:59Simon Sinek?

  And somebody says, so what brings you here? I'm like, I'm a door opener. And they go, what? This is how I show up in the world. And one of the ways I do it is I founded this fintech company called Marion Pip, which is why I'm at this event.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  And hopefully any company I found in the future is to invite people in.

• 57:13Simon Sinek?

  It always will be if it's true to you.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, that makes total sense. Well, I'm an inviter. Why am I here? I'm inviting people into my life to learn about.

• 57:21Simon Sinek?

  Gain confidence and all the things.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  To learn how to gain confidence as a young girl.

• 57:25Simon Sinek?

  Mary Holliday, you're nothing but joy and fun.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Likewise, Simon.

• 57:34Simon Sinek?

  As always, thanks for listening. And if you liked this episode, please do remember to subscribe to A Bit of Optimism wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford and Devon Johnson. And if you want more cool stuff or just to find out what I'm up to, visit simonsinek.com. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.