(Not Just) Another Brick in the Wall

A closer look at the messy, beautiful bricks hiding across Chicago.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:31Roman Mars?

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• 1:15Roman Mars?

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• 1:44Roman Mars?

  This is 99% Invisible. I'm Roman Mars.

• 1:50Roman Mars?

  The Menadnock Building in Chicago is unlike any structure you'll ever come across. A few years back, I brought my wife Joy to gaze upon it with me because, you know, of course I did.

• 2:02Roman Mars?

  Okay, and so I want you to, I'm not trying to quiz you, but, but like, I want you to tell me like what you see when you see this building, like what are some of its characteristics?

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, it's massive, but not in the same way, like super tall like these other skyscrapers.

• 2:17Roman Mars?

  Yeah, it feels heavy.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  But yes, it feels heavy, dense.

• 2:22Roman Mars?

  Built in 1891, the Menadnock is an office building that has needed shoring up to keep it from sinking beneath its own weight. From the sidewalk, the structure's purplish-brown facade rises in one smooth, continuous motion. There are no gargoyles or decorative moldings. Instead, what you notice is how the building gently curves or rounds where you typically expect a sharp corner or a flat edge. Its entrances and windows are also set deep into the wall, like four, five, even six feet back. And that's because the Menadnock was built the old-school way, by layering and stacking brick upon brick upon brick, six feet thick at the base and 16 stories into the sky.

• 3:08Roman Mars?

  So this is the tallest masonry skyscraper in the world. So it is completely made of bricks.

• 3:19Speaker 03

  So the Menadnock, to me, the really remarkable thing about it is that it is so utterly seamless. It's all this sleek, perfectly-produced brick.

• 3:32Roman Mars?

  This is Will Quam, a fellow Menadnock lover and a scholar of the essence of this building: bricks.

• 3:39Speaker 03

  I've had people ask me with a Menadnock, you know, did they get all these flat bricks at the site and then start chiseling them? And no, they actually, they made hundreds of special molds for these particular bricks. They also then, when they fired them, had to be incredibly careful in firing them so that they knew they would all come out about the exact same color. So the Menadnock is a really, to me, the perfect demonstration of what a brick could be at that time in the world.

• 4:08Roman Mars?

  In the palm of your hand, a single modular brick is often unremarkable. But together, bricks can transform into a wall, or an arch, or a building, and occasionally, maybe even something remarkable, like the Menadnock.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  My version of the analogy is that bricks are like brushstrokes in a Van Gogh. Each one is a beautiful part of a more beautiful whole. You get up close and you can appreciate it in a different way than if you step all the way back.

• 4:35Roman Mars?

  As a way of celebrating the building blocks of his home city, Will founded Brick of Chicago, an award-winning architecture tour.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  So I give tours of 12 different neighborhoods around Chicago that start from a place of brick architecture of, I'm going to make you passionate and excited about a brick. And then, once you're passionate and excited about a brick, what else can I make you start to see and care about? You know, on my tours, it's almost like a dare. Why would I go on a brick tour? What could I, what could this possibly be? I guess I gotta find out.

• 5:06Roman Mars?

  Will also recently wrote a book called Fire and Clay: How Bricks Reveal the Hidden History of Chicago. Using the city as both muse and case study, Will weaves together a modern history of brick, and in the process, offers us new ways to appreciate this humble building material. Here's my chat with Chicago brick historian, Will Quam.

• 5:30Roman Mars?

  Okay, so like, in its simplest form, what is a brick?

• 5:34Speaker 03

  What is a brick? A brick is a clay building block that is burnt.

• 5:39Roman Mars?

  And so, you know, by that definition, humans have been building with bricks for thousands of years.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:44Roman Mars?

  But your work focuses on Chicago and its history with bricks. So for you, where does that story start?

• 5:50Speaker 03

  So before the Great Fire of Chicago, Chicago was very much a city of wood. We had access to so much wood, so cheap, and that's just what we built everything out of. And then, 1871, the city burns down in this unbelievable fire. A third of the city burns, a third of the population becomes homeless, and we really quickly need to start rebuilding. The good news, though, was Chicago was really perfectly positioned to rebuild with brick. First, because we're sitting on this enormous quantity of clay. So 14,000 years ago, Chicago was covered by this enormous glacial lake that dropped all this fine clay across the land.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  But intermixed in all this clay are stones and pebbles and just stuff. And so when Chicago brickmakers started making brick out of that clay, they found the bricks came out looking unbelievably messy and ugly. Pink and red and brown with these bleached white bits of limestone on the face, and all these pores and stuff that would just soak up so much soot and dirt and turn black over time. And these bricks, which are called Chicago Common Bricks, came to be known as the ugliest bricks in the entire country for that reason. Yeah, there's a Boston brickmaker in 1892 that said in an industry speech that if Adam from the Bible had been a brickmaker, he would have caused the fall of man by making a brick as ugly as those they make in Chicago.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:18Roman Mars?

  That's pretty floridly harsh.

• 7:20Speaker 03

  It is. It led to, it led to a Chicago brickmaker to respond, quote, "When Boston can show as fine buildings as Chicago, when Boston can show as many people as Chicago, when Boston can show as much enterprise in Chicago, then we will listen to all the criticisms that Mr. Fisk has to make about the brick in Chicago."

• 7:39Roman Mars?

  You think you're better than me?

• 7:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know. We've always been the second city. We've always been a city with a chip on our shoulder, even when it comes to our bricks.

• 7:47Roman Mars?

  Yeah, so good.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  And so with these bricks, they're really ugly. They're considered really ugly, but they're perfectly fine for building, and we can make an enormous quantity of them.

• 7:56Roman Mars?

  Yeah, and we should say something else is happening at the same time as the Great Fire, which is the ability to make bricks at scale just kind of explodes.

• 8:04Speaker 03

  Right, exactly.

• 8:05Roman Mars?

  Can you talk about that and how we used to make bricks one way and what changed heading into the turn of the century?

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. Bricks for thousands of years were made by hand, starting from a place of mixing mud and straw and sand together, baking it in the sun, building what's called a clamp, this big pile of unfired bricks, you know, lit on fire from the inside like a bonfire. Eventually making kilns to fire it, to make it more permanent. And all bricks were coming out in really varied ways when you made bricks that way. One brickmaker who had experience in that said that a good burn of brick was much more a matter of luck than any kind of skill. It's just what does chemistry do in that time?

• 8:51Roman Mars?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  And all bricks kind of looked like, in a way, that Chicago Common Brick, really messy, varied. But starting in the 1830s and 1840s in places like Philadelphia and Cincinnati, these machines were invented, like pug mills that could grind the clay and make it a really consistent plastic mass. And then presses that could mechanically do what humans have been doing, press the brick into these molds. And the volume you could make with those machines was staggering. And to give you a sense of how important that is, a really good hand-making brickmaker can make about 5,000 bricks a day.

• 9:26Roman Mars?

  One person can make 5,000 bricks in a day?

• 9:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, because they've got these molds that are, you know, six, the mold has pockets for six bricks on it.

• 9:34Roman Mars?

  Okay, okay.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  Somebody who's really good, you're throwing down clay on that, you're scraping it off, you're dumping them out, and then a child is picking those up to take, or stack them. And somebody who's really good at that can make 5,000 a day, at most. These early machines that the Chicago Common manufacturers were using could make 36,000 an hour.

• 9:55Roman Mars?

  Oh, wow.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  A huge amount of bricks. And so these are the kind of machines that had been invented in the 1850s, 60s, but became perfected and widespread by the Chicago Fire. And so when Chicago rebuilds, it is reborn as a city of brick, and out of brick made from the very stuff right under our feet.

• 10:13Roman Mars?

  Yeah. And it's particularly that Chicago Common brick, that is, that is what we're building with, because they just want to make, they're cranking out this stuff with whatever dirt's around them.

• 10:23Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly, yeah.

• 10:24Roman Mars?

  Whatever color it is, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. We need to rebuild this city right now.

• 10:30Speaker 03

  They don't care, exactly. They don't care what the brick looks like. They just start scooping up clay and making Chicago Common brick, and they remake the city out of it.

• 10:37Roman Mars?

  It's just an amazing confluence of events. Like, you have, you know, a wood city, it burns down, you have to, and so much of it burns down. You have so much demand that it supports this thing that's already there, that's, you know, ripe to explode, and it does.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was, it was really exactly that. It's the perfect way to put it. It was ripe. It was absolutely ready for it, and it could do it, and it did it in a huge, enormous, enormous way.

• 11:00Roman Mars?

  Yeah, yeah. So, a lot of, you know, the story, the majesty of bricks comes through in photography. And there's a very evocative image, a very early image in your book, which is a wall of Chicago Common brick, which is a big old mess. It is, it's just delightful. So I wonder if you could sort of describe the image for us, and what you think it shows about the way these bricks were used to rebuild the city?

• 11:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, so there's an early image. It's a wall in South Chicago, far, far south, old steelworking neighborhood. And it's a wall that was never meant to be seen. It was an interior wall of Chicago Common brick. So when you build a brick building, you've got bricks on the outside, but you have three or four layers thick of brick on the inside. And this building, its neighbor, was torn down, revealing this inner width of brick. And it's all Chicago Common brick in this real mess of colors, and there's big stones and pebbles. And then the mortar is so crazy messy, too. It's just seeping off and oozing out from the wall, because it was never meant to be seen. And that's because a lot of those

• 12:11Speaker 03

  interior walls, those were what the apprentices were first ever allowed to lay as bricks.

• 12:16Roman Mars?

  Oh, wow.

• 12:17Speaker 03

  And to learn to be a bricklayer, a big part of that is learning to do things in a repetitive way, in a way that takes care of your body, and you can do consistently. And one guide I have said that you should be able to lay an interior brick with two moves. That's it.

• 12:34Roman Mars?

  And what does that mean?

• 12:35Speaker 03

  Throw mortar down, drop a brick on it, and then repeat. And they would often even say, hold two bricks next to each other, butt to butt, in one hand, and just put them down, two at once, you know? So you're, you're not even putting mortar between every single brick. You're just filling in the wall. This picture really is a beautiful description of what people thought of Chicago Common brick. Totally functional, not meant to be seen or appreciated, just oozing and slapdash, not even really level.

• 13:05Roman Mars?

  Yes. Talk about that. Talk about how Common brick is, is used in the sort of average Chicago architecture.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  So most buildings you look at in Chicago, when you look at the front of it, you see one kind of brick. And then when you look towards the side, you see that brick on the front ends the second it turns the corner, and is replaced by this much messier-looking Chicago brick. Because there's two categories of brick when we talk about brick. There's face brick and common brick. Face brick is the nice stuff that goes in the front of your building. Common brick is the stuff that's actually doing a job, and hidden away where it's not as much meant to be seen. And in Chicago, all we made was that Common brick. All the face brick in Chicago was, for the most part, being imported from elsewhere. Other cities like Philadelphia, they made both kinds of brick. But you look at a building in Philadelphia, and that difference between the front and the side is so much less jarring

• 13:55Speaker 03

  than it is here.

• 13:56Roman Mars?

  Yeah. I want to kind of give people a geography of brick. Like, different cities had different specialties when it came to brick. Could you describe some of those?

• 14:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. Brick is so geographic, and it's, it's all, what did the glaciers leave you thousands and thousands of years ago? So in Chicago, we have our very pebbly, stony clays. You go to St. Louis, you have a very fine, consistent clay that burns to a really lovely red. And so a lot of those reds you see in Chicago, in areas like Lincoln Park, come from areas like St. Louis. You go to parts of Ohio, near, near around, like Canton, or Western Pennsylvania, you get a lot of what are called fire clays. These clays that have a lot of iron pyrites, impurities throughout them, that produce these very metallic, shining

• 14:43Speaker 03

  bricks with all these specks and pockmarks across it, called iron spot bricks. The Robey House, Frank Lloyd Wright's Robey House, for example, is covered in iron spot bricks. My personal favorite kind of brick. Or you go to Texas, and a lot of areas down there produce a lovely, sort of soft, almost pink brick. Rice University is covered in these lovely, soft, pinkish bricks. And it really varies so much depending on just what were the minerals in your clay. It's a really love, makes it a really lovely thing, especially in Chicago, because we were importing all of our face brick. You can walk around a neighborhood and see, on the fronts of buildings, there's Milwaukee, there's St. Louis, there's Ohio,

• 15:27Speaker 03

  there's Texas, there's North Carolina. It's a little tour of the country, just by looking at the front of a building.

• 15:32Roman Mars?

  Yeah, that is so cool. So I want to talk about the Menadnock again, because one of the things we didn't mention is that that building is a kind of a perfect example for the changing role of brick in construction.

• 15:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:44Roman Mars?

  So, we said the Menadnock was entirely made of brick, and that's only partially true, because a few years later, another wing was added to the building, and that side of the building actually uses a steel frame to hold everything up.

• 15:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 15:58Roman Mars?

  So, could you talk about that transition from using bricks to steel frame?

• 16:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, so the south newer wing of the Menadnock, the brick is only decoration. It has a metal skeleton, and the brick really only exists there to fill in the gaps between these metal structural pieces, the cells of the metal. So there's a lot of Common brick in it, but the Common brick is only there to fill a gap, and the brick is purely decorative. It also becomes an important part of fireproofing, where all that metal has to be wrapped in brick, or terracotta, to help that metal survive a fire, if that ever comes along. So the role of a bricklayer changed tremendously in that period of time,

• 16:42Speaker 03

  as brick went from the most important part of a building. You know, these contractors write about how, if the bricklayer struck, everything stopped. You couldn't do anything. But once metal took over, the bricklayers become the people who come in and fireproof it, and it becomes almost a form of plaster on the walls, you know, in that way. And it never comes back as a structure on a tall building, you know, and really on buildings over four stories high. Something else starts to do the job.

• 17:12Roman Mars?

  Yeah, and I just find this transition so interesting, because, like, for the longest time, bricks were mainly a structural element. Like,

• 17:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:20Roman Mars?

  They looked good, and people cared that they looked good. But it really stops being a structural element, and becomes just another way to decorate your building at some point. What do you think of that change?

• 17:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, brick is this structural and decorative material for so long. But after the Second World War, labor becomes the most expensive part of a building. And a brick's a small unit. And a Common brick, a structural brick especially, it's a bunch of small units in these thick walls, and it takes a person a lot of time to lay all that. And so developers, contractors, start to look for a cheaper way to do things, and they find the answer in concrete block, cinder block. A cinder block, or a concrete block, takes up the same space as about seven bricks, and it can go up in the wall a lot faster. And so that's what people start to do, is they buy concrete, they stop buying Common brick,

• 18:13Speaker 03

  and the Common brick companies start to shut down. And in Chicago, by 1954, there's 10 companies left. By 1964, there's five, and by 1970, there's two. Only two companies remaining, making that Chicago Common brick. And by that point, most people are building with concrete. And the next thing that happens, in 1970, the EPA is formed, and the Clean Air Act is passed. And brick companies all across the United States are told, you got to clean up your emissions. The problem is, most brick companies are using kilns. They have these enclosed ovens. Chicago Common manufacturers are making bricks the same way people made them 2,000 years ago. They are making scove kilns, these piles of unfired

• 18:57Speaker 03

  bricks, that they cover in plaster or in fired bricks, and then they light on fire from the inside. The analogy I like to use is, a traditional kiln is, an oven, you take your turkey, you stick it in the oven, you turn it on, it's all happening in there. A scove kiln, like the Chicago Common manufacturers used, is you take your turkey, you stick it on your countertop, you put a gas jet in the butt, you cover it in deli meat, and you light it on fire. It's cooking the turkey, but it's a seeping, smoking mass. And if you are told you need to clean it up, you basically have to build an oven around it. But if nobody's buying it, you can't afford to do that.

• 19:31Roman Mars?

  Right.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  And that's what happens. So the first one shuts down in 1974. And then the last one, the American Brick Company, which was in Dalton, Illinois and Munster, Indiana, they shut down in 1981. And that's, that's it. That's the end of common brick manufacturing, both in Chicago and across the United States.

• 19:50Roman Mars?

  Wow.

• 19:51Speaker 03

  All brick today is mostly face brick. It exists purely as a decorative material. And a lot of that face brick that exists are now a lot bigger.

• 19:57Roman Mars?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:58Speaker 03

  Things like a utility sized brick, which is four inches by 12 inches, because it fills up the space of the wall a lot faster.

• 20:05Roman Mars?

  Right, when it doesn't need to do anything besides be a surface that looks pretty. You could make it be anything.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  It becomes more of an idea than a piece of a structure. And it becomes, it becomes a statement. The modernists, you know, Mies used a lot of it, in particular, laid an English bond, this structural pattern, because that's what he believed if you're going to use brick on a building, you should do is put it in this pattern that evokes structure. Because that's the most honest way of expressing a building. And then the architects who are rejecting his work in the seventies and eighties are putting tons of brick on their building to shrink the window size, to make it feel more historic, more homey, or more monumental and permanent. And then the post-modernists use it almost like it's paint in cartoon.

• 20:54Speaker 03

  They're using a solid red brick to remind you of the solid red bricks of the 1890s, the 1880s. And, and that's really how it's evolved since then, is it's, it is less of a building material and more of a design material and an idea and can play, act as whatever you want it to be.

• 21:12Roman Mars?

  When you think of a brick building, I mean, you have a, a larger sort of group to sort of gather from in your head. But when you say, when you, when you think like, like, what is the perfect type of brick building? Is it a tiny little, you know, cottage in the backyard that looks like it could be handmade? And so like the handmaideness of brick reveals it? Or is it like something like a school, which is like, a lot of them are made of brick? And they, they really conote something with the, with its brickness, you know?

• 21:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I guess I, I think a school is a, is a really great example because the brick is there for solidity, for permanence, for the fact that kids are sticky and make a lot of mess and beat things up and the brick can withstand it. And because it's part of a legacy, you will find the same bricks. And sometimes you'll find the exact same designs in wildly different parts of the city. And Chicago is enormous and a city that is also incredibly segregated with so much feeling of, oh no, don't go here, don't go there. But the brick creates these connections. And so the neighborhoods are so different in so many different ways, but there's so much the same about them in so many different ways.

• 22:24Speaker 03

  And so brick has become a real way for me to create dialogue across the city and encourage people to get out and explore the city in more ways.

• 22:33Roman Mars?

  Yeah, another thing this conversation is making me think of is just like how bricks are easily understood by people, like on, on this show, we have to describe steel frame construction like every couple of years, just to remind people what's going on inside of a building. But like, if you were a child and you were told, you know, make a building, you would essentially build a brick building.

• 22:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 22:54Roman Mars?

  You, you know what that means. And if you wanted to build one as tall as the Bonadino building, you would make it thick at the bottom and you would intuitively know to do it that way.

• 23:03Speaker 03

  And you would intuitively know to start interlocking them together and create that depth and, you know, add in what we call headers, the brick going back into the wall to tie everything together. Yeah, it is a very basic and understandable material.

• 23:16Roman Mars?

  And, and it just like metaphorically, it persists. We build things brick by brick. We, you know, if there's a store that's not online, it's called a brick and mortar. I don't know, like, what do you think of that? It's persistence. And, and those are metaphors about foundational building, even though, you know, it has not been used as a foundational structural material for quite some time.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:37Roman Mars?

  What do you think about the persistence of that idea?

• 23:40Speaker 03

  It is forever. It is the oldest human made building material. We've had it forever. The Chicago Tribune's architecture critic in the seventies, Paul Gap, wrote about one building, the Hyatt, it was a skyscraper covered in brick. And he said, "Brick is the anti-machine." It is this material made by people and laid by people. And it's also a material that is, it's made in fire. And it is this interaction of intention. You make it to look a particular way, but chemistry and accidents have, you know, happened. It's the Bob Ross happy little accidents. And that happens in a brick. But we keep using it even when you don't have to, because it is such a part of our urban fabric.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  And it is what is expected. And it speaks to elegance and luxury and permanence and history.

• 24:35Roman Mars?

  After the break, we talk about the other part of a brick wall. Stay tuned.

• 24:46Roman Mars?

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• 27:29Roman Mars?

  So we've been talking a lot about bricks, but there are two components to every brick wall. There's brick and then there's mortar. What is the role of mortar in all of this, other than just sticking bricks together?

• 27:41Speaker 03

  Everybody always wants to talk about mortar and so, yeah, everybody. Mortar is there to serve as a glue, so every brick can attach to its neighbor. But in these old brick buildings, the mortar is there as climate control, as moisture management. The enemy of all buildings is water. And brick, it's clay, it, it soaks in water and it'll stay wet. But historically, the mortar we've used in building was called lime mortar. It's made from quicklime, burnt limestone, which is a material that is very thirsty. It soaks water. And what that means is when those bricks get wet, when it rains, when it splashes, the mortar will soak and pull the moisture out of that brick.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  The other great thing with that lime mortar, when you're dealing with these structural brick buildings, buildings move. When they warm, they grow, when they cool, they shrink. And it's happening really unevenly throughout that Bonadino six-foot thick wall. The outer layers are moving a lot more than the inner layers. And that flexible lime mortar would move with the wall, but still hold it together. And so it's stick mortar sticks your bricks together, but it also moves with your bricks and removes moisture from your wall. That is unbelievably important. The problem that we've run into is over the last hundred years, people have added cement to mortar

• 29:06Speaker 03

  because it helps it set faster and you don't have to re-point it, scrape old off and put in fresh as often because it's stiffer, it's stronger.

• 29:14Roman Mars?

  Yeah, right, right.

• 29:16Speaker 03

  Problem is now it's too strong. A lot of the commercially available brick mortar is stronger than the bricks that is going to be put on. And so when the building tries to move, it can't. And that mortar is just desperately holding it in place, you know, helicopter parent style. And eventually the tension builds and builds and builds and it cracks, enormous cracks all across the face of the wall.

• 29:40Roman Mars?

  And these are the cracks you see outside of an old apartment building or whatever.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  Exactly. And then when the wall gets wet, that cement mortar has no interest in water. Not looking twice at it, the more moisture stays in the bricks, starts to work its way all through your brick wall until it eventually gets to your bedroom, your basement, and all that moisture gets released inside your house. And along the way, winter comes, it freezes and it expands and it cracks the wall and it's just terrible. I have pictures in the book of these walls where the brick is just this cavity eaten away by water and there's this latticework of hard cement mortar that just remains.

• 30:21Roman Mars?

  And so this isn't like a problem on every brick building, but like you said, if you live in an older brick structure, these are the problems that cement mortar can have on your bricks.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, we've designed modern buildings. Modern buildings are built with cavity walls and weeps and expansion joints, which are basically built in ready-made cracks. And so you can use the modern mortar and that's what masons are so comfortable with. The problem comes then, masons are so comfortable working with that. And lime mortar is tricky to work with. Pure lime mortar takes like over a month to set fully. They think, oh, well, this works for this, this works for that. And they go in and they put it on historic homes. It's the sad thing that a lot of masons don't know they're causing damage and homeowners really don't know what the mortar is doing at all. I really, I don't blame homeowners in any of this. As a homeowner, you get three quotes and all the masons are telling you roughly the same thing. And so you say, I guess I'll go with this.

• 31:18Roman Mars?

  Well, this is so much fun. I really, really am just inspired by your whole project of everything you're doing for Brick in Chicago. And, and I just really enjoyed the book and enjoyed talking with you. Thank you so much.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. I, I love the podcast. It's an honor to be here.

• 31:38Roman Mars?

  Will Quam is the founder of Brick of Chicago. You can follow him on Instagram at Brick of Chicago. 99% Invisible was produced and edited this week by Jason DeLeon with additional production by Jackson Roach. Mixed by Martine Gonzalez, music by Swan Real. Fact checking by Graham Hesha. Kathy Tu is our executive producer. Kurt Kohlstedt is the digital director. Delaney Hall is our senior editor. The rest of the team includes Chris Berube, Emmett Fitzgerald, Christopher Johnson, Vivian Le, LaShma Dawn, Joe Rosenberg, Kelly Prime, Jacob Medina Gleason, Talon and Rain Stradly, and me, Roman Mars. The 99% Invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence. We are part of the SiriusXM Podcast family,

• 32:19Roman Mars?

  now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora Building in beautiful Uptown Oakland, California. You can find us on all the usual social media sites as well as our own Discord server. There's a link to that as well as every past episode of 99PI at 99pi.org.

• 32:44Speaker 04

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• 33:27Speaker 04

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