"The House That Built Me"— Miranda Lambert

This week, Rob shines a light on the many ways singer-songwriters have utilized the concept of the word ‘home’ to convey where the heart and the human spirit truly reside. These musings serve as a springboard for a thorough analysis of country superstar Miranda Lambert’s hit song from 2010 ‘The House That Built Me’, and the defiantly authentic discography that preceded it. He’s then joined by friend and culture writer Elamin Abdelmahmoud from CBC’s ‘The Commotion’ podcast to expound further on Lambert’s infectious Texas charm. Host: Rob HarvillaGuest: Elamin AbdelmahmoudProducer: Chris Sutton, Olivia Crerie, and Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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  If you had to pick just one album to define the 21st century so far, what would it be? I'm Cole Kushner from Dissect.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  And I'm Charles Holmes from the Midnight Boys. And on Tuesday, July 29th, Cole and I are launching season four of Last Song Standing, but this year, we're mixing things up.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  Instead of searching for an artist's greatest song, we're asking an even bigger question. What is the greatest album of the 21st century so far? Listen to Last Song Standing on the Dissect podcast feed or the Dissect YouTube channel, starting Tuesday, July 29th.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. You know what I love about football season? It's the football, but also the football watching food. And nothing hits like a Boar's Head sandwich when I'm watching a game. Really, any game day sandwich better with Boar's Head. Philly cheesesteak, layer up buttery slider rolls with Boar's Head London broil roast beef, American white cheese and picante provolone. Delicious. Then add roasted onions, peppers and Boar's Head pub style horseradish sauce. I love horseradish. And you've got the ultimate game day cheesesteak. They've also got a whole line of premium meats, cheeses, hummus and dips, condiments and more to serve up on game day. Head to your local Boar's Head deli counter to shop now. For game day sandwich inspiration and more, visit boar'shead.com. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot.

• 1:16Speaker 02

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• 1:45Speaker 03

  Listen, I don't walk around with a definitive list in my head of my top five favorite songs of all time. Despite what you may have heard. From me on this very program, pretty recently, when I announced definitively that my top five favorite songs of all time are as follows in no particular order. Kiss by Prince, Let It Be by The Beatles, When I Think of You by Janet Jackson, Birdhouse in Your Soul by They Might Be Giants, and Work It by Missy Elliott. That's a solid list. Hell yeah, that's legit. Never mind.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  I stand by that. No, I don't. Listen, I don't walk around with a definitive list in my head of my top five favorite songs of all time. Okay, I got a list in my head at all times, yes, but the list ain't definitive. The list revises itself arbitrarily, perpetually, subconsciously, my mood fluctuates. I'm so changeable. New songs intrude. Not new songs, necessarily. It's been ages since an actual new song threatened to crack my all time list, though that new Clips song about taking a Mike Tyson blow to the face is rocketing up the charts right now. That's a great song. No, see, by new songs, I mean old songs that I

• 3:07Speaker 03

  love dearly, but I make myself forget about them temporarily, just so I can hear them again as though they're new, and I fall in love with them all over again. That's the list in my head at all times. Let's say 75 to 100 songs all time, where if I hear that song again in any context, I fall in love with that song all over again. And I say out loud, usually, regardless of circumstances, even if I am mid-conversation and that conversation is in no way related to the song, people think it's weird. It's not weird. It's normal. I say out loud, "This might be my all time favorite song." Yeah, I got 100 to 250 songs like that.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  And often, there is one specific line, or even one specific word in that song that triggers it, that re-triggers me. I hear the song and I go, "Hmm." And then the song hits that one word and I go, "Oh yeah, this might be my all time favorite song." And it's even cooler, I think, if that one specific trigger word is the very first word of the song. Home.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  This Must Be the Place by Talking Heads from their 1983 album, Speaking in Tongues. Excuse me, the full song title is This Must Be the Place (Naive Melody). Also, excuse me, not this version, not the studio version, the Speaking in Tongues version of this song. No, it's gotta be the live version of This Must Be the Place (Naive Melody), which appears in the rapturously-received 1984 Talking Heads concert film, Stop Making Sense, which is my favorite concert film of all time, even if that's somewhat of a normie opinion. Too bad. It's the vocal harmonies, right?

• 5:15Speaker 03

  That make the live version of This Must Be the Place superior, essential, definitive. The word "home," the way Talking Heads' frontman David Byrne sings the word "home," the dazed yearning in his voice. That's more or less unchanged, but live? It's the vocal harmonies on the words "is where I want to be," and most crucially, on the words "I feel numb." Both the numbness and the extreme sensitivity, the profound, heartbreaking depth of uncontrollable feeling implied by the harmony right here on the words "I feel numb." Both the abject loneliness and the heartwarming camaraderie

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  of the voices intertwining here on the words "I feel numb." I get to this line in this version of this song and I tear up instinctively. I burst out crying, pretty much. It's not weird. It's normal.

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  Shout out to the Stop Making Sense backup singers, Lynne Mayberry and Edna Holt. There are some vocal harmonies in this part of the studio version of This Must Be The Place, but that's David Byrne harmonizing with himself, and that ain't gonna cut it. We need Lynne and Edna. We need their radiance. "I Feel Numb" just does it for me, man. The myriad dualities of "I Feel Numb," the resignation and yet the resilience of "I Feel Numb," the anxiety and yet the serenity of "I Feel Numb," the stillness of the Stop Making Sense version, too, the reverence, the relative quiet. Lynne and Edna are not just radiant backup singers, but radiant backup dancers. Think of all the buoyant choreography throughout Stop Making Sense,

• 7:17Speaker 03

  all the playfulness, all the bopping around, all the running around. But during This Must Be The Place, most of the band huddles together in one spot onstage and stays put and just chills out next to this super bright floor lamp. Right, the lamp. "This Must Be The Place" is the Stop Making Sense song where David Byrne dances with a floor lamp for 30 seconds during the keyboard solo at the end. He duets with a floor lamp. He lovingly caresses it and dips it and twirls it around. And the dualities here, too, the weirdness and yet the gracefulness of the lamp dance, the absurdity and yet the beauty.

• 7:56Speaker 03

  This moment of unexpected cataclysmic holy communion between a rock star and a common household object. Yikes, I'm getting carried away. I'm getting all extra wordy rock critic on you. Sorry. The appeal of this song is way simpler than all that. Really, it's clear to me, it dawns on me yet again that "This Must Be The Place" is one of my all-time favorite songs right from the first word, the word "home." "This Must Be The Place" makes transcendent worldview, redefining use of the word "home."

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Home is where I want to be, but I guess I'm already there. I've heard of people using "This Must Be the Place" as their wedding song, as their first wedding dance, and I always get super jealous. That's such a great pick. That's an elite first wedding dance. My wife and I, we almost used Queens' "We Are the Champions" as our first wedding dance, but then we chickened out and we used "Something" by The Beatles instead. "Something in the way she moves." And that song rules, obviously, but we still regret not doing "We Are the Champions." This came up again like last night. Our wedding was 18 years ago. "The ingrained existential longing for home" and the slow realization that home is not necessarily a physical place. Perhaps it's a state of mind, or perhaps it's a person.

• 9:34Speaker 03

  What a perfect, romantic, lovestruck, and gently baffled way to put it. "I come home, she lifted up her wings. I guess that this must be the place." The "I guess" really kills me there. The "I guess" gets me every time. Every part of "This Must Be the Place" gets me every time. "I guess. I guess I better move on." The word "home" gets me in pretty much any song, now that I think about it.

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  John Denver. "Take Me Home, Comma, Country Roads," 1971. Yeah. Shout out John Denver for sneaking the comma into the song title. I respect that. I confess that this didn't make my potential all-time favorite songs list until a couple of years back when I was driving with my family through, literally, West Virginia. And my kids got super into the song, and suddenly everybody was singing along, and now it's on the list. The slight dip of "to the place", followed by the slight but triumphant ascent of "I belong." Sorry, that's the good shit. Stuff. That's the good stuff. Sorry, kids. Don't talk like daddy. Is there a more powerful word in songwriting history?

• 11:01Speaker 03

  Then home. Perhaps you think of love, right? As the apex songwriting word. You think of love and/or you and/or baby, perhaps. But love is very arguably overused in pop songs. Love, the word, is all wrung out. It's too cliched. It's too easy. As a songwriter, you gotta work too hard to restore any power, any poignancy, any oomph to the word love. Whereas home is eternal. The uncut longing that radiates off the word home. Everyone belongs there. Everyone is begging someone to take them there. And everyone can't quite ever get there.

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  Supertramp. Take the long way home. 1979. The word home reduces anyone to tears just by the physical act of singing it. Maybe that's the singular mystical power of anyone singing the word home. Yes, I mean, anyone.

• 12:37Speaker 03

  Yes, I mean, even Ozzy Osbourne. Mama, comma, I'm coming home. I respect the comma. 1991. I thought of this song again, and this song made me sad again, right before Ozzy Osbourne died. And now, of course, this song makes me even sadder. But there is triumph now in Mama, I'm Coming Home as well, I suppose. He made it. Rest in peace, Ozzy Osbourne. I hope heaven's got an Alamo just for you. Mama is a great, big, super freighted, poignant pop song word also. But one word at a time, please.

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  Counting Crows, "Children in Bloom." That's the name of the song, "Children in Bloom." It's poetic. Seriously, I love this song. 1996, Adam Duritz imbues the word "home" with more super freighted poignancy and intensity than the words "love" and "you" and "mama" combined. Counting Crows' frontman, Adam Duritz, is totally done singing the word "home" in this song. Though, of course, I'm just kidding.

• 14:06Speaker 03

  That's the good shit. That's the even better shit. "Children in Bloom," that's on my 250 possible all-time favorite songs list, for sure. So's this one.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  Do you know these guys? American Music Club, out of San Francisco. Extremely rad, sad-sack, barstool poet, alt rocker dudes out of San Francisco, led by singer and songwriter and former Columbus, Ohioan Mark Eitzel. Made some great records in the 80s and 90s, and they broke up and then reunited in 2004 to put out a great reunion album called "Love Songs for Patriots" that peaks with a great song called "Home." You should know these guys. You should know this song. Central to the power, central to the paralyzing melancholy of the word "home" is this idea that even if you sing "Let Me Come Home" or "Take Me Home" or "I'm Coming Home" or whatever,

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  what you really mean is what Mark Eitzel sings there. "I hope I make it home." Just because you say "Take Me Home" doesn't mean somebody will take you home. Just because you say "mama, comma, I'm coming home" doesn't mean you'll make it there. So put this song called "Home" on the much longer list of songs that should be way more famous. And put this other song called "Home" on the also surprisingly long list of songs that are like 50 times more popular than I thought.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  Edward Sharp and the Magnetic Zeros. "Home." 2009, 1,698,496 plays on Spotify when I checked it just now. "Home" is way more popular than I thought. "Home" is primo, late 2000s, early 2010s, stomp and clap, ho hey. "Please don't wear a Native American headdress to Coachella." Stadium folk excellence. This song deserves more critical respect, starting with me, apparently. Sorry. "Let Me Come Home." See, that's an intriguing, that's a sneakily devastating way to put it. Just because you sing "Let Me Come Home" doesn't mean they'll let you.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  And even more intriguingly, "Home is wherever I'm with you." Talking Heads knew that. Also, maybe "Home" is not a physical place, but a person. And I guess maybe you're already there. But even that idea has the sneaky potential to be totally devastating because it implies, devastatingly, that if the right person isn't there, you can make it home and still not be home.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  The Dixie Chicks, now known simply as The Chicks. 2003. A home. This one's an all-timer, folks, and it's the tragic inverse of "This Must Be The Place" by Talking Heads, right? As always, The Chicks' vocal harmonies are ridiculously immaculate. But even with three voices here, there's a vibe of overpowering loneliness, overpowering desolation, because if you're not there, this can't be the place. And the final masterstroke here is that The Chicks illustrate the crucial and often crushing distinction between the words "home" and "house."

• 18:18Speaker 03

  The house that might have been a home. That is a devastating phrase. Devastatingly sung. Even if that phrase is not by a long shot, a new phrase. The chicks did not invent this idea. Rather, the chicks here proudly join a proud house does not equal home lineage that also includes the likes of, oh, hey, awesome, it's Dionne Warwick.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  A chair is still a chair. Even when there's no one sitting there.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  Dionne Warwick. A house is not a home. 1964. This song was in a movie called A House Is Not A Home. This song was written by Burt Bacharach and Hal David. This song is an all-timer and has been covered frequently, most notably by, oh, hey, awesome, it's Luther Vandross. Better grab a hold of something. Tell him what a chair isn't, Luther.

• 19:21Speaker 04

  But a chair is not a house. And a house is not a home when there's no one there to hold you tight.

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  Luther Vandross. Covering A House Is Not A Home. 1981. Luther sings with the sheer force, the triumphant desolation and the all-time greatness of 50 other all-time great singers, hitting 50 other high notes on 50 other all-time great songs simultaneously. Luther Vandross is an army of one. He is the loneliest army of one to ever storm the battlefield. But you know what's even lonelier than a house that's not a home? Because there's only one person in it? A house with zero people in it.

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  There's a house on my block. That's abandoned and cold.

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  The folks moved out of it a long time ago.

• 20:32Speaker 03

  Tom Waits, House Where Nobody Lives, off his genuinely incredible 1999 album, Mule Variations. If this is your very first time hearing Tom Waits's voice, yes, he sounds like that on purpose. Whatever song, whatever era, however galactically craggy Tom Waits's voice might sound at any given moment, he sounds like that on purpose and it's awesome. You'll see.

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  And they took all their things and they never came back. It looks like it's haunted with a window's old cracks.

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  And here, what makes Tom Waits's haunted house ass voice so effective is that, yeah, obviously, he's the one haunting this house. The call is coming from inside the abandoned house. Tom's voice is rattling the walls and cracking the windows and vibrating the floors and sprinkling your head with dust from the ceiling. Actually, can we jump right to the part where Tom Waits sings the words, "And the weeds had grown up just as high as the door"? Listen to this shit.

• 21:48Speaker 05

  The weeds had grown up just as high as the door.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  I am truly startled every time by the terrifying and electrifying force with which Tom Waits sings those words. "All the weeds in my front yard", I'll get to them. I'll get to them this weekend. I know, I know. "All the weeds in my front yard erupt and multiply and shoot up to door height", when Tom Waits sings that. It's terrifying.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  It's electrifying. It's like he's trying to blow the whole house down. Speaking of blow, oh my God. Every once in a while, I go back to this video, this montage of Tom Waits going on grimy 70s talk shows and doing vintage David Letterman and whatnot. And Tom's always smoking and/or drinking on television. And he's saying things like, "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." And I've always maintained that reality is for people who can't face drugs. And I gotta say that I really think Tom Waits would dig this new song by Virginia rap duo, The Clips, called "Mike Tyson Blow to the Face."

• 23:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, man. "Only 300 bricks can make you leonitis." I can totally imagine Tom Waits singing that line in a piano ballad where it sounds like Tom built the piano himself out of dinosaur bones and then stuck all the leftover bones down his throat. That line is a reference to both ancient Greece and cocaine. Technically, this clip's song is called MTBTTF, but those initials stand for Mike Tyson Blow to the Face. I figured that out. If you know, you know, you know? The word "home" appears a couple of times in this clip's song, actually, but it's in lines like, "The snow alone fill up a mobile home." By "snow," they mean cocaine.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  Anyways, Tom Waits' "House Where Nobody Lives" is my all-time second favorite song with "house" in the title.

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  Everyone calls it the house, a house where nobody lives.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Because there's an unnerving final frontier in this galaxy of songs about hoping you can go home, and songs about houses that are not homes, and songs about being home, but the person you love is gone, so it's not home anymore. And this is the unnerving final frontier. What if you're home, but you still feel like you're gone? What if you're the person who's missing? What if the person you're missing is yourself?

• 24:55Speaker 03

  Her name is Miranda Lambert. She is a singer and songwriter and country music superstar, originally from Longview, Texas. I don't think she uses it much these days, but she's got a microphone stand that's a shotgun, or a long rifle, or maybe it's just a very long shotgun. I would say that her microphone stand is shaped like a shotgun, but it's entirely possible that her microphone stand actually is a fully functional and loaded long shotgun. Also, I don't think you want to find out if it's real. I don't. Maybe just don't antagonize her. And listen, we try to avoid hyperbole around here, but we got the hardest line in 21st century country music on deck. Miranda Lambert's gonna sing

• 25:37Speaker 03

  the hardest line in 21st century country music in like 20 seconds. Singing anything into a microphone attached to a microphone stand that possibly doubles as literally a shotgun, that's pretty tough. That's pretty intimidating. That's pretty hard. But it ain't as hard as "Out here, it's like I'm someone else."

• 26:09Speaker 03

  I tear up instinctively. I burst out crying, pretty much, whenever I hear Miranda Lambert sing the words, "Out here, it's like I'm someone else." Every song, ever sung about home, about leaving home, about missing home, about wanting to go back home, about getting back home, but the person you love ain't there, so it ain't home anymore. It's just a house. All those other classic and stirring and poignant and heartwarming and heartbreaking songs about home, I forget all of them for a few seconds, at least, whenever I am once again confronted by "Out here, it's like I'm someone else." Does "out here" mean anywhere

• 26:49Speaker 03

  that isn't home? Are you only really yourself when you're home? Are you someone else? Are you someone worse, someone broken, when you're anywhere other than home? Oof. Sorry. I don't mean to get so emo about it. It's just that every time I hear Miranda Lambert sing that line, I get to thinking that this song is maybe even better than "Let It Be" by The Beatles.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 27th episode of 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, Cole and the 2000s. And this week, we are discussing "The House That Built Me" by Miranda Lambert, from her third album, released in 2009 and called Revolution. Jeez Louise, let's bust out the old ad break before it gets any more emo in here.

• 27:55Speaker 02

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• 28:18Speaker 03

  Sheesh. I hope that ad was for something frivolous and delightful and not at all emo. We gotta liven it up around here. We're calling in some reinforcements. We're calling in John Prine.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  John Prine, singer and songwriter and all time American hero. John Prine, the pride of Maywood, Illinois. John Prine, the singing mailman. He actually worked as a mailman in the Chicago area before Roger Ebert, the Thumbs guy, before Roger Ebert came to one of his shows and wrote a glowing Star Making review in the Chicago Sun-Times in 1970 with the headline, "Singing Mailman Who Delivers A Powerful Message In A Few Words." And suddenly, John Prine was a famous and beloved singer-songwriter and American hero for the rest of his life. John Prine, whom none other than Bob Dylan once described as follows, "Prine's stuff is pure Proustian existentialism.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Midwestern mind trips to the nth degree." And he writes beautiful songs. End quote. John Prine, who, there's a famous photo of Tom Waits, John Prine and Bonnie Raitt hanging out backstage at the Grand O'Opera in 1975. And like, I'm not saying America as a concept peaks with this photograph, but I'm not not saying it. John Prine, who put out a song in 1978 called, "That's The Way That The World Goes Round", that starts off talking about the guy with muscles in his head ain't never been used. Chorus.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  I went to see John Prine play at the Columbus Zoo in the early 2000s. And it remains to this day, one of the best concerts I've ever seen in my whole life. While we're out here trying and failing to avoid hyperbole. That's the first and only zoo concert I've ever seen in my life. And I refuse to go to any more zoo concerts because I don't want to sully the memory of my John Prine Zoo concert. That sounds like a joke, but I'm serious. I didn't know a whole lot about him at the time and I was spellbound. You ever hear the John Prine song called "Lake Marie"? Oh, man. And John Prine explained that night from the stage that some little kid came up to him once and asked him about the song John wrote about the happy enchilada.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  And John was like, I don't, what do you, I don't have a song about a happy enchilada. And eventually John realized that the kid misheard the line, "It's half an inch of water and you think you're gonna drown as happy enchilada, and you think you're gonna drown." And the whole crowd at the zoo busted up laughing, myself included. I'm sure that shop worn, decades old John Prine stage banter, but he got us good. Two other quick things about John Prine at the zoo. Number one, that show was on a Friday night and I knew that my buddy Dan was getting married the next day on Saturday. And so the whole show, I'm thinking, man, this concert is incredible. I love this guy. I'm a John Prine head for life now.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  And plus I get to go to Dan's wedding tomorrow. This weekend rules. And then right after the show, I called Dan to ask him when his wedding started. That's insane, by the way, obviously. Don't do that. Don't be that guy. Don't be like me. Don't call your friends, like call him on the phone the night before his wedding to ask him what time his wedding starts. That's insane. I know that now. Okay. But I called Dan to ask him what time his wedding starts tomorrow and he answers his phone while he and his new wife are loading their wedding presents into the trunk of their car because the wedding wasn't tomorrow. It wasn't Saturday. It was tonight. It was Friday night and it had just happened. And I missed it because I was at the John Prine concert at the zoo

• 32:32Speaker 03

  and Dan and his new wife both laughed at me. I'd say that's a remarkably John Prine-esque way for me to end my evening at the John Prine concert. Speaking of muscles in my head that ain't never been used. The other quicker thing about John Prine at the zoo is that I got to interview John Prine over the phone in 2018. Just a few years before he passed, John Prine died on April 7th, 2020 of COVID-19. He was 73 and he was the best. And I told John about seeing him at the Columbus Zoo and I told him it was one of the best shows I've ever seen and he said, "Well, thank you. I remember that gig. When it comes to zoo gigs, that was one of the nicer ones."

• 33:12Speaker 03

  And I said, "What's a not-nice zoo gig like?" And John Prine goes, "You're in the middle of a fucking zoo." Yeah, so Miranda Lambert does a rad cover of the Happy Enchilada song. Get a load of the sauce she's about to put on the word "town."

• 33:45Speaker 03

  Here we have Miranda Lambert's cover of John Prine's "That's the Way That the World Goes Around", which also appears on her 2009 album called Revolution. Notice that Miranda changes the gender. Notice that she knows a gal, she knows a pretty nice lady who's got muscles in her head, ain't never been used. But yeah, also notice the truly stupendous relish with which Miranda Lambert sings the line, "Think she owns half of this town." The venomous gleeful snap of the word "town", firing out of her mouth. You gotta grow up in a small town to sing the word "town" with that much shrewd vicious backspin. John Prine has been endlessly described by everyone, probably by me at some point,

• 34:29Speaker 03

  as your favorite singer's favorite singer, your favorite songwriter's favorite songwriter, et cetera. This construction is such a cliche that Stephen Colbert once interviewed John Prine and asked, "Were you a mailman's mailman?" Another time Stephen Colbert and John Prine actually sang a duet on "That's the Way That the World Goes Around", it was super weird and also really nice. But among songwriters, and Nashville songwriters in particular, country and folk songwriters, John Prine is the gold standard. He's the apex. He's the guy you love and the guy you want to love you. So Miranda- Miranda Lambert, mainstream country superstar, is covering John Prine in 2009

• 35:10Speaker 03

  on a mainstream country superstar album because she's got exquisite taste. And she turns that John Prine song into a country punk mosh pit throwdown because just because you've got exquisite taste doesn't mean that you don't also kick ass.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  So this is who we're dealing with today. This is the gal, this is the pretty nice lady who writes and sings and generally conveys herself like she's using every muscle in her head all the time. Miranda Lambert was born in Longview, Texas, on November 10th, 1983. She was raised in nearby Lyndale, Texas, a 45 minute drive east, according to Google Maps. Don't at me. At one point, her parents, Rick and Bev, both worked as private investigators and they'd take their daughter Miranda out on stakeouts and whatnot. Also, Rick and Bev were once hired by an Arkansas state employee named Paula Jones

• 36:20Speaker 03

  to investigate, help substantiate Paula's sexual harassment allegations against former Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton, who was by then President of the United States, Bill Clinton. And that's a rich text culturally, sociopolitically, but I don't want anything to do with it. If you want the truth. In 2001, the year she turned 18, Miranda Lambert self-released her debut album called Miranda Lambert. And this self-titled record is not canon per se. It is not officially streaming or generally much acknowledged. And so it's the sort of deal where you can find it on YouTube, but you can't be 100% sure it's legit, right? Maybe it's mislabeled, maybe it's a prank, maybe it's a deep fake.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  I don't know. Let's try it though. Let's hear a song called Texas As Hell, even if maybe it isn't really her.

• 37:13Speaker 04

  I'm sexy as hell. Mean and ornery. I don't need no loudmouth coming on to me.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  No, that's her. That's definitely her. Every part of that is very obviously her. Cool. Ain't nobody else gonna sing the words Texas, hell, mean, ornery and loudmouth with that kind of panache. Famously, in 2003, Miranda Lambert competed on the first season of the televised singing competition Nashville Star, which premiered and mostly stayed on the USA Network and which was, unambiguously, country music American Idol. Right? Would you like to hear Miranda Lambert on Nashville Star, belting out "Hurts So Good" by John Cougar Mellencamp? Sure you would.

• 38:04Speaker 03

  If this is a deep fake, then I'm super impressed and it clearly costs somebody several million dollars.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  I feel like you can hear Miranda Lambert's eyebrows there. The star-making, all-knowing, mean and ornery arch of her eyebrows. Infamously, Miranda Lambert did not win the first season of Nashville Star. Miranda Lambert finished third. And not to be rude, but Nashville Star went six seasons and crowned six winners. And yet, the two most famous singers to emerge from this program by several orders of magnitude are Miranda Lambert and later, Kacey Musgraves. Speaking of young country superstars with major John Prine energy. Kacey Musgraves didn't win Nashville Star either. She finished seventh, which is hilarious. I feel rude disparaging the actual winners of this program.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  This dude, Chris Young, won season four of Nashville Star in 2006. And Chris has gone on to a respectable and relatively not obnoxious bro country-type career. If you don't mind deep-voiced dudes coming on to you and trying to drive you down a dirt road and hump you in the bed of their truck, that is unnecessarily coarse, that image, even if it is semi-accurate. That's even ruder. Shit. Miranda Lambert did not want to win Nashville Star.

• 39:39Speaker 03

  She was very glad she did not win. The great Nashville author and critic and friend of the program, Marissa R. Moss. She published a fantastic book in 2022 called Her Country: How the Women of Country Music Became the Success They Were Never Supposed to Be. And Marissa describes Miranda's state of mind during the Nashville Star finale. Quote, "So she didn't cry when it was announced on the finale that she'd come in third. Instead, she mouthed to her parents, sitting in the audience, a hearty, excited, yes. Losing meant that Miranda didn't have to be beholden to work with a certain producer, a certain mixer, a certain engineer.

• 40:23Speaker 03

  It meant that no one owned her choices but her gut and that she could mold her career exactly how she wanted to. And that's precisely what she did." End quote. It's the Kelly Clarkson thing. If you were around for that conversation. The bad news, when Kelly Clarkson won season one of American Idol, is that she had to do everything American Idol told her to do for a while, or at least that's what was expected of her. Instead, freed from the prison of victory, Miranda starts talking to labels. And per the Her Country book, as Miranda later explained it to NPR, she said, quote, "I told everybody, I'd rather spend another decade in honky-tonks and do it my way than

• 41:08Speaker 03

  be the pretty girl for you." End quote. In March 2005, Miranda Lambert released her debut album, officially this time. It is called Kerosene. In the video for the song called Kerosene, she carries around a gas can the whole time and burns her house down.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  Miranda wrote "Kerosene" pretty much herself, but as you may have observed, that song sounds so much like Steve Earle, raucous, righteous, super loudmouth, electric guitar-loving outlaw icon Steve Earle, your favorite country singer-songwriter's other favorite singer-songwriter, Steve Earle. That song sounds so much like him that Miranda gave Steve Earle a co-writing credit. Now, as you may have also observed, country music, and mainstream Nashville machine, country music in particular, is fixated on home, fixated on the house as home, or the house as not home, fixated on the small town as home. But even if pretty much everybody out of Nashville

• 42:23Speaker 03

  is singing about home pretty much all the time, it's still striking to me how immediately Miranda Lambert's songs can all be plotted on a straight line, on a highway perhaps, stretching out infinitely between home and away from home. So on "Kerosene", the album, "Kerosene", the song is track one. Here's track two.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  This song's called "What About Georgia", and the internet would like me to believe that it's a diss song Miranda wrote about a hapless fellow Nashville star contestant and brief love interest, who wrote a mean diss song about her whilst abandoning his small-town roots in search of fame and fortune. And probably the internet's right about that, but the line, "You took a little piece of home and you threw away the rest", is cutting and ornery and excellent enough to not require really any context at all. Let's keep going. Let's keep leaving. Track three, in fact, is called "Greyhound Bound For Nowhere".

• 43:46Speaker 03

  I dig the angelic ooze in the background during this chorus very much. Miranda herself is the one leaving this time. I do believe she is the other woman in this particular heartbreaking love triangle. But if it's any consolation to her, the accordion is also excellent here. Not to mention the way Miranda sings the word "nowhere."

• 44:26Speaker 03

  I swear I wasn't thinking about him anymore, but I just accidentally stumbled across another Tom Waits quote where he supposedly said, "A gentleman is someone who knows how to play the accordion but doesn't." And then on purpose, I found a blog post from someone really angrily insisting that Tom Waits didn't really say that. Leave it alone, Rob. All right, track four is called "New Strings." And not only is Miranda once again the one leaving home, she's the one packing up the good and leaving the rest.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Maybe it's slightly reductive to say that true country music superstardom is the ability to sing a vaguely familiar line, like "I'll grab the wheel and I'll point it west," with so much charisma, so much fervor, so much self-belief that it sounds like a line you've never heard before in your life, not even vaguely. But that's what Miranda Lambert just did, and she's about to do it again right now with the line, "I've got everything I ever need." I do not necessarily believe every singer who's ever conveyed that particular sentiment in so many words or in those exact words, but I believe her.

• 46:00Speaker 03

  And really, the outrageous appeal of Miranda Lambert is just that simple. You can't put it any simpler than she just put it. "I got this old guitar and a brand new set of strings." She is in the lineage. She is walking the line. She is pointing her steering wheel down the decades-long highway of classic country stars with all the dualities classic country superstardom implies. The toughness and the vulnerability, the fierness and the ultra-coolness, the leaving home and the longing for home. She is in a mode you recognize immediately. She has a personal vibe, a vocal and a lyrical and a personality-based tone that you will also forever recognize immediately as her and her alone.

• 46:45Speaker 03

  So every Miranda Lambert song you hear from here on out, you go, "Yep, that's her. That's definitely her." Every part of that is very obviously her. My personal favorite song on this first Miranda record is called "I Wanna Die."

• 47:14Speaker 03

  Partly, it's the line, "If you're the death of me, darlin', I wanna die," right? That's an instant classic country music line. But mostly, it's the bassline there. The "doo doo doo doo doo." It took me forever to figure out why I responded so strongly to this, and then finally, I figured it out. Oh, yeah, right. It reminds me of the Talking Heads covering Al Green's "Take Me to the River."

• 47:47Speaker 03

  The live version, the Stop Making Sense version of Talking Heads covering Al Green's Take Me To The River. Obviously, obviously. All right. Kerosene goes platinum. Kerosene eventually sells a million copies. Kerosene hits number one on the Billboard Country Albums Chart. Cool, cool. Great start. But we're aiming higher now. We're aiming farther down the mythic highway. If the whole point here is to breathe galvanizing new life into country music archetypes, why not just go ahead and call the second official Miranda Lambert album Crazy Ex-Girlfriend?

• 48:25Speaker 04

  County Road 233, under my feet. Nothing on this wide rock but a little oaklay.

• 48:36Speaker 03

  You just sat up or stood up a little straighter. Your eyes just opened a little wider. A little thunderbolt shot through your whole body just now when Miranda Lambert spit out the words "County Road 233." No? And this is not only a country music skill, right? The way the vicious glorious snap in her voice makes the ultra-specificity of "County Road 233" feel immediately, permanently, universal. But when somebody nails that specific to universal transformation perfectly, you believe that it's exclusively a country music skill. Crazy Ex-Girlfriend comes out in 2007. We've moved on.

• 49:18Speaker 03

  We've moved up from kerosene in terms of intensity and, you know, weaponry. This song's called "Gunpowder And Lead."

• 49:39Speaker 03

  And now, see, there's an actual song called Crazy Ex Girlfriend on Miranda's second official record, released in 2007 and called Crazy Ex Girlfriend, in which, in essence, Miranda starts a fun bar fight with her ex and his new girlfriend. But the word crazy here helps describe a far graver situation. I'll admit this chorus blew right by me a few times before I fully realized that right here Miranda sings, "He slapped my face and he shook me like a rag doll. Don't that sound like a real man?"

• 50:24Speaker 03

  And here is where Miranda's shotgun microphone stand era begins in earnest. Spiritually, if not literally, though maybe literally. You can hear gunpowder and lead as part of a famous country music lineage of its own in its depiction of revenge, of domestic turmoil, of domestic violence. This song is arguably The Thunder Rolls by Garth Brooks from the woman's perspective. The Thunder Rolls video, I should specify, which is a great deal gnarlier and more upsetting in its depiction of domestic turmoil and domestic violence than the song itself is lyrically. But Miranda also has a far more direct and personal connection to these issues. In an interview with The Guardian in 2016, Miranda talked about her parents, working

• 51:08Speaker 03

  as private investigators and often investigating cases that involve domestic violence and often taking in, sheltering women and children who were victims of domestic violence. Miranda said, quote, "I had mom making cookies after school, and I also had moms whose partners were beating the crap out of them. Gunpowder and lead was in my household for a long time," end quote. The best songs can be exaggerated. The guns, the pyro, the wailing background singers, the arena-sized grandeur. But just because they're exaggerated doesn't mean they're not describing something terribly, viscerally real.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  That, too, is not an idea exclusive to country music, but with the very best songs, it feels exclusive to country music. As for lyrical concepts that are more or less exclusive to country music, another really great song on this Crazy Ex Girlfriend record is called Famous in a Small Town.

• 52:22Speaker 03

  Famous in a Small Town is upbeat and anthemic and neutral to outright positive on the subject of living in a small town and the gentle panopticon nature of every grandma, in-law and ex-girlfriend knowing you a little too well. There are approximately 200 billion country songs about living in a small town. And in my experience, the harder any one small-town song works to convince you that living in a small town is the best and the coolest and maybe even the noblest, the less convincing that song is. And so I dig the matter-of-fact-ness of Miranda Lambert here. She's on her second album, she's got a couple dozen well-known songs to her name, and she's

• 53:05Speaker 03

  already nonetheless got a ton of songs about leaving home. But even the songs where she explicitly leaves her abiding love of home is always just as explicit.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  "Everybody Dies Famous in a Small Town." The way she sings it, it's not a complaint and it's not a boast either. It's just a fact. "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" hits number six on the Billboard album chart. Miranda Lambert is firmly always a country star, but now she's a much bigger one. And she's a threat to maybe one day be the biggest. "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" also hits number 15 on the 2007 edition of the Village Voice's Big Pas and Jop Year-End Rock Critics Poll, which I was attempting to help run at the time. A terrifying and overwhelmingly life-shortening experience, I'd forever you not ask me about, ever. The point is that critics, rock critics, are getting big into Miranda Lambert. Country stars crossing over to pop stardom is one thing.

• 54:17Speaker 03

  Three stars crossing over to widespread thoughtful, critical acclaim is another arguably rarer thing. Don't worry too much about any of that, though. The third official Miranda Lambert album is released in 2009. It is called Revolution. It includes many fine, many excellent songs, a very funny song called Only Prettier, and a very sad and heartbroken song called Dead Flowers, and a very chaotic and delightful John Prine cover, if I recall correctly. But this is one of these country records with one song so good, it kind of sort of breaks the rest of the record in half. It kind of sort of breaks me in half.

• 54:56Speaker 06

  I know they say you can't go home again. I just had to come back one last time.

• 55:08Speaker 03

  Okay, as a brief indulgent programming note, I meant to do the Miranda Lambert episode. I meant to do The House That Built Me last week. But I started out thinking and writing about the Tim McGraw song Live Like You Were Dying. And I got to thinking about my father-in-law, Jim, who passed, who we lost in April after a long illness. And I spun out a little bit, and I just hyper-fixated on Live Like You Were Dying and how it made me think of Jim. And then I bailed. I made a snap decision that Live Like You Were Dying made more sense as its own shorter, more concentrated thing, without a bunch of other songs and cultural ephemera and random tomfoolery diluting it, or him. But so I talked last

• 55:50Speaker 03

  week about meeting Jim for the very first time, meeting my girlfriend and future wife's father for the first time in his house, in his living room, rising from his chair, and just the serenity, the ease, the warmth, the homelessness radiating off of Jim. The very first time I shook his hand, right before he started telling me about how he'd pull the tails of the squirrels in his backyard to establish dominance. And so The House That Built Me makes me think of Jim, too. Like I walked into his house thinking, well, this is Jim's house. And I shook his hand and in that instant I realized, no, this is Jim's home. And that alchemy is not available to Miranda Lambert here in part because the house that built

• 56:35Speaker 03

  me is in the past tense. It's not her house anymore. She's here one last time. She is singing this song, in fact, to the current occupant of the house. It's someone else's home now. Or at least we hope this house feels to this woman now, the way it felt to Miranda then.

• 56:55Speaker 06

  Ma'am, I know you don't know me from Adam.

• 57:01Speaker 06

  But these handprints on the front steps are mine.

• 57:06Speaker 03

  And the video for this song adds one subtle but crucial detail. The House That Built Me video starts with Miranda Lambert's tour bus pulling up to the house. And Miranda gets off the bus and she walks around and she knocks on the front door of the house and she tosses to the lady who answers the door and lives there now. And then Miranda walks around inside the house and looks sad. The tour bus is the subtle but crucial detail. It reminds us that Miranda Lambert is a superstar now. And specifically, she is a country music superstar with hit songs about small towns, about living in them and leaving them, and maybe occasionally returning to them.

• 57:46Speaker 03

  In the song itself, in the lyrics to the song itself, the only real nod to Miranda Lambert's superstardom is the line about her learning to play guitar.

• 57:58Speaker 06

  Up those stairs, in that little back bedroom. It's where I did my homework and I learned to play guitar.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  The little bend in Miranda's voice there on the words little back bedroom, that's the sort of grace note that transforms the great songs into the all time great songs. The House That Built Me was written by Tom Douglas and Alan Shamblin. And according to the internet, this was originally intended for Blake Shelton. Country superstar and jovial loudmouth bro Blake Shelton, to whom Miranda Lambert was married from 2011 to 2015. Miranda heard this song and wanted it for herself and she got it for herself. And when he's not rapping or generally overdoing it, Blake Shelton's got his moments, all things in moderation. But I'll tell you this, I am grateful for so many things in this life and so many more important things.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  But I am now additionally grateful that I get to hear Miranda Lambert singing this song and not Blake Shelton. Not to be rude. Here comes the line about the dog. This is a tough one, but toughness in the right hands, in her hands, sheesh, thank you, I am eternally grateful. In Miranda Lambert's hands, the toughness only further bolsters the greatness.

• 59:18Speaker 06

  And I bet you didn't know under that live oak, my favorite dog is buried in the yard.

• 59:30Speaker 03

  It's the barely perceptible brightness in her voice on I'll Bet You Didn't Know, the split second blip of elation you get when you tell someone a secret, even that secret. And then Miranda sings the line, the line that I think about, that I fixate on often, not daily, but often. Still, the weapons-grade country superstar pathos, she pours into this one line.

• 59:57Speaker 06

  Out here it's like I'm someone else. I thought that maybe I could find myself.

• 1:00:06Speaker 03

  I think about out here, it's like I'm someone else a lot. The tour bus in the video matters to me because it reframes The House That Built Me as a rock star worn down by the road song in the grand tradition of what? Bob Seger's Turn the Page or Metallica's Turn the Page or the Ramones, I Want to Be Sedated or Neil Young's For the Turnstiles, et cetera. The someone else in Out Here, It's Like I'm Someone Else becomes Miranda Lambert, country superstar. I have watched Miranda Lambert sing this song in a packed hockey arena. But when I'm just listening to the song by myself. And tearing up again, "I don't want the tour bus. I want to interpret out here,

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  it's like I'm someone else as broadly as possible. I want to consider the argument that this statement applies to everyone and out here refers to any place that is not home. You, any of you, all of you, all of us, we are, all of us, not ourselves when we are not home, or at the very least, we are performing the role of someone else when we are not home. And a house can build us, but when we leave it, it ceases to be home, even if we return to it." It's getting super emo in here again. Sorry, but sometimes that's the gig. Bridge.

• 1:01:43Speaker 03

  And as a final transcendent crowning glory here, what makes the bridge great is that I do not believe Miranda Lambert when she sings it. She is believable insofar as she is Miranda Lambert, country superstar, and she can make any line believable. But what makes her Miranda Lambert, country superstar, is that she has clearly, audibly, never forgotten who she is. This goes beyond the simple reductive, tired old question of authenticity. She has a voice that makes you go, yep, that's her. That's definitely her. Every part of that is very obviously her every time you hear it. That's all. The house built her. The

• 1:02:25Speaker 03

  house is not her home anymore. She struggles, sometimes, often, to find home again, as do we all, of course. But we have her. Home is where we want to be. But I guess we're already there. We come home. She lifted up her wings. I guess that this must be the place.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

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• 1:03:24Speaker 07

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• 1:03:57Speaker 03

  We are thrilled to be joined once again by our close, personal friend, the great Alamin Abdel-Makmud, host of the Commotion Podcast, author of the memoir, "Son of Elsewhere", proud Canadian and even prouder Miranda Lambert fan. Alamin, it's great to talk to you again.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  Rob Harvilla, we are so back. We are so back, man. The thrill of a Harvilla, as they say, right? That's, that's what they say?

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  They say it all the time.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  Happy to be here, pal.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  I got a piece of mail once addressed to Rob Harvilla. That was probably a career highlight for me. I should have kept that. Harvilla, that's, I was.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  You should have kept that.

• 1:04:31Speaker 03

  I, I should have kept that. That's on me. Um, Alamin, we were chatting and you described Miranda Lambert to me as the patron saint of the unmoored, which is a phrase I immediately.

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  Really gravitated toward. Can you explain to the people what makes Miranda Lambert the patron saint of the unmoored?

• 1:04:52Speaker 08

  Uh, the problem, Rob, is when you, when you say things and people go, what do you mean? You know, and then you gotta, you gotta say-

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm sorry.

• 1:04:59Speaker 08

  More, more words about that. And, and, and you know what?

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  That's on me.

• 1:05:02Speaker 08

  I'm glad that we're doing it. Let's do it. Let's do it. I, I, I, look, I think what I meant by that is there's a, there's a very subtle, almost imperceptible shift in Miranda Lambert's approach to songwriting. And what I get out of Miranda Lambert, which is that like a Miranda song is like not interested in resolution, you know, like, I feel like so much country music deals with like these difficult emotions. It's about describing how difficult moving through a feeling is. And Miranda's like, no, no, no, we are sitting in this, even if it's morally compromising, even if it feels bad.

• 1:05:33Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:05:34Speaker 08

  And, and I think like, to me, the best Miranda songs, they don't have a resolution. They're just like this, like, it's like a photograph of a hard place. And, and I think that makes her, to me, more trustworthy. You know what I mean? I, I think that's what I'm reacting to.

• 1:05:48Speaker 03

  I see. She doesn't offer resolution, as you say. She's, she's languishing, you know, she's luxuriating in her lout. What are the songs that do that for you? I'm trying to think like, is that Crazy Ass Girlfriend? Is that Gunpowder and Lead? Like, what are the songs that stick with a bad feeling and see it all the way through?

• 1:06:07Speaker 08

  Well, I certainly try to think about like, you know, the single most public moment of Miranda Lambert's life, you know, as she, this highly anticipated album that she's gonna release after a highly publicized divorce from you know who, who shall not be named on this podcast. She comes out, you know, with the album.

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  Fair.

• 1:06:23Speaker 08

  I won't do it, Rob. I won't do it. But she-

• 1:06:26Speaker 03

  Okay, I respect it.

• 1:06:27Speaker 08

  She, she comes out with this album, you know, The Weight of These Wings. And listen, that album has a song called Tin Man. It is a top three Miranda song of all time. But-

• 1:06:36Speaker 03

  Hard agree.

• 1:06:36Speaker 08

  You know, even, even though she has Tin Man on this record, uh, it, it's not the first or even second single. The first song on there is, the first single that she comes out with is a song called Vice, which is like a song about being like, I probably shouldn't be waking up in this bed, but I am probably gonna also do it again. And I think-

• 1:06:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:06:54Speaker 08

  There's something fundamentally more trustworthy about someone who does that. Like, if someone says, hey, I'm in a hard place. And, and when you're in a hard place, like, you wanna hear someone say, whoa, look at what this hard place, what it tells us about ourselves, as opposed to someone who's like, can't wait to be out of here, you know? Um, I think, I think she- I think she revels in the messiness of being human and I love that so much about her.

• 1:07:14Speaker 03

  Right, because not to generalize, but like the best country songs are about, you know, reveling in bad behavior, bad feelings, you know, trying to get through it, but probably not in the space of the song. Like, is Miranda especially skilled at being someone you root for even when she's at her worst?

• 1:07:31Speaker 08

  Yeah, I think so. And I think the thing that makes her particularly skilled at that is that like, there are people who write from the sober perspective, you know, like, here I am, a polished person who knows they shouldn't have done this thing perspective. And I automatically am like, I don't trust you. Get the fuck out of here. And the reason I think that is because what I think of Miranda Lambert's song says, we make impulsive decisions, we make decisions we know are bad for us. And if someone asks, hey, are you sure about this? The answer is immediately like, no, I'm not sure about this. But it's still the decision. And she's, she's able to tap into that place. She's able to sort of like communicate from that place where she's like, I actually am not sure if I'm entirely worthy of moral redemption at the moment, but this is what it feels like to be in this place. And, and

• 1:08:15Speaker 08

  and the, the greats do that. Like Lucinda does that. Gillian Welch does that. Like the people who are able to say, here I am in all my messiness. Can we hang out? I go, yeah, man, pull up a chair. Let's talk about it.

• 1:08:28Speaker 03

  We totally can. The untrustworthiness part of that interests me because you described Miranda to me as, as honest, you know, which is an overused sort of rock critic descriptive word, you know, like what makes a country star seem especially honest to you? What makes Miranda Lambert seem honest to you especially?

• 1:08:47Speaker 08

  I think if you have been a fan of country music for some time, then you are aware that at least for any artist that you have heard of, who emerges out of Nashville or out of the Nashville machine, that like behind them, there is an army and behind them, there is a staff. And there are people who are a part of the songwriting process. And, and, and the job is to sound believable, even when you're in the middle of all of that. Or like, you're at least like in charge of orchestrating all of that. And I think like the contrast. Is, you know, Carrie Underwood, for example, has this, has this, it's a, it's a song, but it's also an album title called Cry Pretty.

• 1:09:27Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:09:27Speaker 08

  And you, you listen to that song and you go, I don't think I believe you. And I like that song. I like, I genuinely like the song Cry Pretty. It's a Carrie Underwood joint. It's a, it's a Lori McKenna and Liz Rose joint. Like, like, we're talking about like heavy hitters in terms of songwriting. But, but, but it doesn't land because what, what I can't get past is the veneer of the people that it took to ferry the song to me. Whereas Miranda, maybe something about the voice, something about like how early she had to start, you know, doing three hours a night in front of honky tonks in Texas where if they don't believe you, they're gonna be like, please get off the stage.

• 1:10:09Speaker 08

  And I think it gives you that sense of polish of being able to tap into an emotion and deliver it a bit more honestly, more directly. And, and she has that regardless of whether the song is like, you know, this sort of like big raucous song or like something quiet and introspective.

• 1:10:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. Carrie is interesting because I was thinking about Miranda's crazy ex-girlfriend compared to Carrie's Before He Cheats, right? Like, they're both, you know, cheating boyfriends, you know, revenge fantasies, you know, I'm gonna kick your ass, blow up your truck, whatever. But I, I think what made Before He Cheats so effective for Carrie is that it played against her image, right? Her sort of sweetheart American idol image. Does Miranda generally sound a little more convincingly sort of dangerous to you in that crazy ex-girlfriend mode compared to your average country star?

• 1:11:02Speaker 08

  I think the notion that Carrie Underwood was gonna take a Louisville Slugger to both headlights felt out of reach, right? Like, you listen to that and go like, that seems unlikely, you know? Like, we, we can sing along to the song in karaoke and there's something a bit more safe about this, a bit more safe about this. But I think with, with, with Miranda, there's something inherently, I think, a little bit unpredictable about her, you know? Um, there's, there's something about Miranda Lambert that when you listen to those songs and listen to her voice. There's there's an edge to her persona, an edge that says, actually, yes, I'm a part of this machine, but I'm reluctantly a part of this machine. And you know what? I could take it or leave it. And that automatically makes you kind of root for her a little bit

• 1:11:45Speaker 08

  more, you know? I think like, she's someone who, when I think about the songs and the place that she got to, like, we gotta remember, Miranda never really had the trust of radio that much. And radio is, you know, a gigantic kingmaker when it comes to country music. But radio has kind of reluctantly come along to Miranda, but like, it wasn't like they wanted to. They were more so, you know, kicking and screaming coming to Miranda than they were anything else.

• 1:12:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. Because I, what fascinates me about her is that she's both inside and outside, right? Like, she's a huge country star, you know, she wins major awards, you know, but Miranda always seems at the same time, just a little bit out of the Nashville machine, you know? And I think of someone like Eric Church in the same vein, you know, where they're an insider, they're a superstar, you know, they fill arenas, like, they're a Nashville blessed major artist, but they still have just enough, you know, edge, or however you want to put it, to still convincingly like, call an album The Outsiders, refer to themselves as outsiders. Like, what is it about Miranda, do you think, that allows her to be, you know, both part of the machine and apart from it at all times, even at her biggest?

• 1:12:58Speaker 08

  I think part of that is lore, right? Like, part of that is lore and mythology, which is to say that this is someone who, you know, had the opportunity to win a reality show that was like American Idol, but specifically for country music. And as she gets to the final three, you know, and the day that she's voted off, she mouthes yes to her parents because she's like, thank God, I don't have to go through this process. Thank God, I don't have to be whatever this thing, you know, ends up making me. And I think that like, automatically starts her on the right foot of saying, oh, this is somebody who wants to write her songs, wants to sort of like, have a bit more control over her career. Because like, I don't remember who won that year, and nor do I want to. Like, nor do I want To be reminded of who won that year is like, doesn't feel significant to me.

• 1:13:43Speaker 08

  I think like there's something about Miranda that has always kind of felt in charge of wherever her career goes. And and like, sometimes she has made these decisions that I think confound a someone who comes out of that machine. And what I mean by that is that like, for the record, her album comes out the same year that the Pistol Annie's first album comes out. And that's Pistol Annie's her side project with Angelina Presley and Ashley Moore, Ashley Monroe. And there is something endlessly fascinating about, you know, if you want to learn something about an artist, look at what they do when they're at the height of their career, look at the choices they make in those moments.

• 1:14:23Speaker 08

  To me, the idea that she's like, yeah, but I want to do this. I want to do this, you know, singer songwriter project. This this project that is like about, you know, I've written songs with these people. I enjoy their songwriting and I really like our energy together. The idea that you would, you know, take up some of the airspace that you get, you're trying to promote your album. And you're like, no, but I also want to talk with the Pistol Annie's and the fact that I have this record with these people. That tells me something about your where your allegiances lie, which is like with the songwriting, with, you know, with the place it kind of made you. And there is fundamentally, that's incredibly Texas, right? Like, that's an incredibly Texas thing to do. I think like the Texasness of her career is so important because in country music lore,

• 1:15:06Speaker 08

  Texas is like where you go when you're not a Nashville person, you know? The Willie Nelson. Exactly. And and when I think about even like the Texas, the Texas people now, like Casey Musgraves, inside Nashville, but also outside Nashville, right? Miranda, similar deal. Exactly, exactly right. And there is, you get this air of credibility, I think, if you can pull it off right. But that's not an easy thing to pull off right.

• 1:15:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. In the very early Miranda records, I hear a lot of the chicks, the Dixie Chicks, you know? And that's, again, that's Texas. Again, that's sort of Texas dragging, you know, country radio Nashville along with it. You know, I, I don't think Nashville went willingly to the chicks' experience, but they had to. And it's the same thing you're describing with Miranda.

• 1:15:51Speaker 08

  Exactly right. Exactly right. I think like there's, there's a forcefulness to the energy that comes out of something that's standing outside of the machine and saying, no, country music doesn't have to only be that. It could be something else. And I think like Miranda looks a different part, right? I think like, that's the thing that's compelling about Miranda is that she looks like she could just kind of play the, the sort of produced by the Nashville machine person. But she's rebellious in her nature in the same ways that like, I think of other Texas musicians who sort of made Nashville have to change and correct course. And I'm talking like, to me, like, she's a combination of like Steve Earle and Beyonce, like the idea of like,

• 1:16:35Speaker 08

  you do, right? Like you, you turn out a lane, you say, I'm sticking to this lane.

• 1:16:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:39Speaker 08

  Take it or leave it. And then eventually Nashville's like, we'll take it because it's actually pretty good.

• 1:16:43Speaker 03

  Sure, sure. I really like, you know, a lot about a star from what they do at their height, the choices they make. That's a really cool framing because I love the Pistol, Pistol Lanny's record, right? As much as I love For the Record, you know, I, and that's, you know, I want to make a record with my friends. You know, the same year is my blockbuster fourth album. Like, that's a very cool decision. And like you say, that, that shows you who she is and who she cares about.

• 1:17:07Speaker 08

  She could have done anything in that moment, or she could have freed her entire year to say, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna, it's gonna be a long promotional run ahead of this album. And instead, no, she's like, I, I got these friends and we write songs together. And to me, her allegiances to songwriting have put her in rooms where people don't necessarily expect her to be. And I like, love that subversiveness about her.

• 1:17:31Speaker 03

  When did you first get into her? Because her second record, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, like I remember that being a major sort of critical success, like critics polls, like things of that nature, right? Like, what was your personal relationship with country music when you first got into Miranda Lambert?

• 1:17:46Speaker 08

  Well, I gotta tell you, I am ashamed to admit, but also happy to admit that for the longest time, I was one of those people that go, I listen to everything but country music, um, which, which is a real shameful sentence, you know?

• 1:17:58Speaker 03

  That's how you say that. That's the voice you have to use when you make that specific statement. You nailed, you nailed the tone.

• 1:18:05Speaker 08

  I, I listen to everything but country.

• 1:18:07Speaker 03

  There it is.

• 1:18:08Speaker 08

  Um, which like, I don't, I, I, I've tried to return to that self a lot, man. Like the self is like, uh, I listen to all of these things, but this thing would say something about me and therefore I'm staying away from it. Like, what is that thing? Um, and, and, and I've tried to sort of like mine this idea of like, when you have a, a relationship where you go, oh, I'm defining myself by being against something. Uh, because of course it's, it's silly. I, I got, I got into country music way later. Like country music for me is something that maybe started 2014, 2015. Um, so I was, I was a full blown adult, you know, um, by the time that I, um, finally arrived, uh, a country music.

• 1:18:48Speaker 08

  And what I found was music that was very reminiscent of Sudan and Sudanese music. Um, that's what got me into it in the first place. Um, and, and, and by that I mean, music that is like, very specifically about a place, about a place, a very invested in painting a place with rich colors and saying, uh, we don't want to talk about anywhere else. We want to, we just want to talk about like the contours of this place. And, um, I think like the house that built me becomes the introduction to that because that's, that's where I first fell in love with Miranda. And what a song to sort of, you know, start your, your entry point into someone's career.

• 1:19:28Speaker 03

  Of course. I, yeah, I was going to ask you like this, I, I love tons of Miranda songs, but House That Built Me towers above all of them and above like any country song from this decade. So like to start there with her is, is, is wild. Like I'm, I'm interested in the idea that it connects to, to Sudanese music. Like, like just is, what do you hear in that music that then connects to the house that built me? Just the description of like a physical place of like a metaphysical place you're trying to get back to? Like, what is that connection?

• 1:19:59Speaker 08

  Yeah. So I think like when I, so I came to Canada, um, when I was 12 years old and I was instantly horrified by, by hip hop because I grew up in a conservative Muslim household. And I was like, they're doing what? I can't do any of that. And, and, and, and I did what every, every teenager does, which I was like, oh, I will listen to nu metal. That seems safe, you know? And the journey sort of went, it was, it was, it was, it was a road. It was a road one can take.

• 1:20:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:33Speaker 08

  A big sigh. I can't wait for the disturbed episode, Rob.

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  I'm working on it. I'm gathering strength for disturb.

• 1:20:44Speaker 08

  This is, this is neither here nor there, but I, I do think that, um, that for me, like the path went, um, from, from nu metal to just generally pop music. Um, and then when I was sort of like began to miss Sudan or what Sudanese music does, um, Sudanese music is so rooted in like the Nile and in nature and the trees and the roses. And very specifically like how a place shapes you. And that was my pathway to country music. Um, and to, I encountered that, I mean, like the first country album that I ever listened to was Sweetheart of the Rodeo, the birds. Um, and, um, and then from there on, it was kind of like, oh, wow, I should probably look into this entire genre.

• 1:21:27Speaker 08

  Um, and, uh, eventually arriving at someone like Miranda Lambert through a song like The House That Built Me. And you kind of go, oh, this is the apotheosis of that idea. The idea that like a place can end up not only informing who you are, but when you are lost, that's the place that you're trying to return to. I mean, it's the unparalleled songwriting. It's a kind of song that like, I think the first time you hear it, anybody sort of has to like sit down and go, I need a minute or maybe to book a therapist appointment. I don't know which one first.

• 1:22:00Speaker 03

  Probably, yeah.

• 1:22:01Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:22:02Speaker 03

  What do you make of the line, "Out here, it's like I'm someone else," you know? Cause that sort of ties into the idea that like, you're trying to get back to a place, you know, but you're only yourself. You know, you're trying to get back to the person you are when you're in that place. And if you're not in that place, you're just not that person. You're not the idealized version of yourself. What do you make of that line and that idea?

• 1:22:23Speaker 08

  That stretch of that song, I honestly, if you're not careful with it, it could just wreck your day if you kind of.

• 1:22:31Speaker 03

  It has happened.

• 1:22:31Speaker 08

  If you just happen upon it, because, because the two lines that precede that, right? It was just like, I thought if I could touch this place or feel it, this brokenness inside me might start healing. There is, there is this wholeness that is maybe artificial and maybe never really existed. But in your mind, you say, there was a time when I was less aware of whatever vacuum I'm feeling in myself now. And whatever, whenever that was, it was in this place. It was around these people. It was in this space. That's where I was sort of like closest to it. And the idea that you're like, I don't know what else is different about my life, except

• 1:23:14Speaker 08

  I lived here and I wasn't in touch with that vacuum. I wasn't in touch with that, you know? And now I'm out here and I'm someone else. I'm, I'm completely aware of whatever it is I'm lacking. That, that's a wrecking ball through anyone's life. I mean, it's like, that's, it's, it's such economical songwriting, describing the play, the, the way that just one axis or one sniff of a particular place can just bring you to be like, oh, that's when I felt a little bit more whole. Unbelievable, unbelievable. It's, I'm, I'm, I'm mad about it quite often.

• 1:23:53Speaker 03

  You're mad you didn't think of it? What makes you mad? It just that it's, it's so good, it makes you mad. I love that idea generally.

• 1:24:00Speaker 08

  The imagery is, is so beautiful and the lines are just like so all encompassing, right? Like, and, and there's, there's this like, there's this tenderness of like, if I could just come in, I swear I'll leave. Like, I promise, I'm not gonna break your shit. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna knock over the vase. I'm not, you know? And there, there is like a, can you just, can I just be returned to that state of being? And like, if, if I could, if I could posit an opposite image, you know? The opposite image is, is the old apartment by the bare naked ladies.

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  This is beautiful. Oh, please. Go on, go on.

• 1:24:41Speaker 08

  I'm doing, I'm doing my, my, my Canadian duty.

• 1:24:43Speaker 03

  This, I was gonna say, this is very Canadian of you.

• 1:24:46Speaker 08

  Gotta do it, gotta do it. I, I, I think the, the old apartment is like, you know, in, in, in the old apartment, um, the, the narrator breaks into the old apartment and he's suddenly like, why is everything different? You know, you, you've changed my shit, you've painted the walls, you know, I, why did you fix a hole in the wall? Which is to say like, this person's like, immediately like, oh no, I was really hoping to return to a different self. And I'm actually like, kind of acting out, I'm quite radically acting out in the song because I can't access that older self. And in this song, you know, in the house that built me, there is this like devastating tenderness that is kind of all about, you know, trying to say, I, I understand that things are different.

• 1:25:27Speaker 08

  I am, I'm, I'm trying to process that, but this is the, maybe the best place I could be in order to actually process that. Have you, I don't know if you ended up talking about, um, the Tanya Tucker cover of the song?

• 1:25:41Speaker 03

  No, I am aware of it. I haven't heard it in a while, but that was pretty recent, right?

• 1:25:47Speaker 08

  It is, it's, it's, yeah, it's from, it's from Bring My Flowers Now, which is like this album that Tanya Tucker did. Well, it's While I'm Living is what it's called, from like 2019 or so. But the, the, what's interesting about that cover is that, um, Tanya Tucker changes the lyrics to be from the perspective of the mom who raised the kids in that household. And buddy, if you want a wrecking ball, find that cover.

• 1:26:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's gonna be tough. That's, I don't know if I'm ready to do that right now.

• 1:26:14Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:26:15Speaker 03

  I do want to listen to this old apartment, though. I could do that. That seems emotionally safer for me to go that.

• 1:26:21Speaker 08

  That, that is, that is much, much, much safer than Tanya Tucker, uh, doing The House That Built Me. And she just little changes, ups the stairs and in that little back bedroom is where they learned to, you know, like they did their homework.

• 1:26:34Speaker 03

  They.

• 1:26:34Speaker 08

  With her children.

• 1:26:35Speaker 03

  Just the they, ugh.

• 1:26:37Speaker 08

  And you gotta go like, oh, brother. Oh, brother.

• 1:26:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:40Speaker 08

  It's true.

• 1:26:41Speaker 03

  The Miranda line that's getting me right now is, I'll bet you didn't know, under that live oak, my favorite dog. Something about my favorite dog is buried in the yard, like something about, I'll bet you didn't know. Really hits me. I don't know exactly what that's about, but just as you say, sort of the tenderness of her talking to the current occupants, you know, who you can imagine being like, who is this crazy woman? Like, get her out of there. But just the tenderness with which Miranda is speaking sort of undercuts the weirdness of the home invasion, you know, that this song is.

• 1:27:13Speaker 08

  That's exactly it. Is that like, there is, she's assembling in real time, the thing that she's trying to return to, you know, like, I think like, the ways that the verses and the chorus are in the chorus are sort of like in conversation with each other is that like, you've got this, you've got this chorus, it's like, out here, like I'm someone else, I thought maybe I could find myself. I'm sure we're coming back to this house. But then you kind of like this image of her being like, oh, it's because this house wasn't just a house, it was a house that my mom sort of envisioned for years. And then my dad cut out, you know, like built it board by board. So there was like, there was like an assemblage that is happening, where she's like putting it together in real time, be

• 1:27:54Speaker 08

  like, oh, I was closer to the wants of my people, to the love of my people. And there is like, there's a, there's truth to that expression that feels not only incredibly tender, but also like, it's like, it's dawning on her as you're listening to her sing the song, you know? And so she's like, the idea like you're, she's staying in this place where daddy gave life to mama's dream. And she's like, oh, that's why he could put me back together. That's the thing about this place that puts me back together, you know?

• 1:28:25Speaker 03

  Absolutely. You were talking to me about, I think it's from last year, from 2024, this song, I Hate Love Songs, you know, that Miranda does. Like, she's put out an album, you know, annually since, you know, and she's married to a, like a super swole, like, police officer? Like, just her Instagram is just very muscly these days? Like, it seems as though she's frying, she's thriving personally and professionally. Is that your view of it? And is she still at the top of her game, just as a singer, as a songwriter, as a, as a superstar?

• 1:28:56Speaker 08

  I think so. I think I get the impression that that Miranda Lambert is doing things that she wants to be doing. And in doing so, like, there's just like a freedom that you sense in her. I'm like, the consistency of the projects that have come out in the last few years has been quite staggering, honestly, because she's not someone who's like, interested in being like, can we have a gigantic promotional cycle for every album that comes out? She's just kind of be like, hey, I made this record. You might want to hear it. And then you hear it, and it's great work. Like, I keep thinking of that song, that I hate love songs song, because, again, it's like Miranda being incredibly honest, incredibly vulnerable.

• 1:29:39Speaker 08

  And there's something about her that just feels like so accessible about being like, hey, here's a moment where I might have messed up my life, and I have a lot of regrets about it. Let's just sit in that regret and what it sounds like for me for a moment. And, and there is something, I think, transformative about listening to an artist who's so comfortable with those unsavory emotions. She's still as funny as she was when she started, but she's also just gotten more and more precise with her songwriting. And, and it's like, it's just, it's just a pleasure to listen to. Like, I think, like, there was a Natalie Weiner, who co-writes the newsletter Don't Rock the Inbox with the great Marissa Moss. Yes.

• 1:30:22Speaker 08

  Yeah, she did a great profile of Miranda. I think it was from, I can't remember if it was from earlier last, from earlier this year or last year. But it's about like, it's about Miranda's new gig, because Miranda is now the head of the co-head, I think, of Big Loud, which is like, the record label that, you know, has Morgan Wallen on it. She's like, she's, she's the head of the new division of it that's based in Texas, which is like, a way of bridging Texas and Nashville, but with being based in Texas, which is like, if you kind of thought that those two things are unbridgeable, right? Like, if you're like, those are the Sharks and the Jets of country music. It makes sense to me. I don't know why they'd be the Sharks and the Jets of country music.

• 1:31:06Speaker 08

  That's fine. Yeah, just don't overthink it. Thank you. It makes sense to me that Miranda becomes the bridge for that. It makes sense that Miranda's like, The ambassador. Yeah, exactly right. Exactly. It's just someone who's like, yes, I was successful and entrusted in the Nashville machine. And also, I'm coming back home and I'm gonna sort of feel this out and return to what that means for me.

• 1:31:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I do believe she is touring right now with Morgan Wallen, you know, who is unquestionably, you know, both the biggest and the most annoying current country superstar. Like, what do you make of her, like, versus the bros, you know, all the good old boys, you know, all this super doodliness, you know, of mainstream country of Nashville at large? Like, is this another realm where she somehow both swims with and against the tide of just how bro-ish this genre is, you know, at its highest, you know, country radio highest echelon?

• 1:32:06Speaker 08

  It's funny you mention that because, you know, Miranda, to my mind, is the only songwriter I can think of who has a songwriting credit with both the incredible country supergroup, The High Women, Amanda Shire's, Brandi Carlile, Mary Morris, and Natalie Hemby. She has a songwriting credit on that album. And she has a songwriting credit with Morgan Wallen. She has a songwriting credit on one of his, I think it was like two albums ago, this really beautiful song, actually, that Morgan has called Thought You Should Know, which is like a song that Morgan and Miranda wrote about Morgan's mom. And it's basically like Morgan in the middle of like, you know, this is the guy who's like, last night, we let the liquor, but in the middle of that crazy album.

• 1:32:50Speaker 03

  Hmm, that's a great impression of him, by the way.

• 1:32:53Speaker 08

  Thank you so much. That was the best I could do. In the middle of this like crazy album, this loud album that he has, or this loud career that he has, he's got this song with Miranda that is like, hey, I just want to write a song to my mom, try to be like, hey, I know you worry about me, but I just thought you should know I'm doing okay. And and it's like, it's marshalling in the gifts that I think Miranda has, which are just absolutely devastating emotional precision. And

• 1:33:26Speaker 08

  The fact that she can lend them to both the high women and to Morgan Wallen tells me something about how she's not really about, you know, the basically factions in country music so much as she is about like the songwriting. She serves a songwriting a little bit more. She's much more interested in that. She, she has a song, she wrote a song for Jelly Roll. She wrote a song for Chris Stapleton that came out on his last album. She wrote an incredible song with Lainey Wilson. She wrote a song with like Luke Combs. She's pretty diverse when it comes to the kinds of people that she hangs out with. I think it's interesting to me that she would choose this moment to go on a tour with Morgan Wallen because she's not billed as an opener.

• 1:34:11Speaker 08

  She's billed as a co-headliner. And I don't know what that means in terms of like splitting the costs or splitting the, you know, the revenue. But, but, but there's something about the fact that she's lending her credibility to that tour at a time when Morgan Wallen is trying to feel out his credibility and kind of return it to a place after, you know, all the things.

• 1:34:33Speaker 03

  All the things.

• 1:34:36Speaker 08

  Is that, is that a good summary? Is that a good summary of everything that's happening?

• 1:34:38Speaker 03

  That's a great summary. He threw a chair off a building, et cetera.

• 1:34:42Speaker 08

  He said the N word. A lot of things have happened with Morgan Wallen.

• 1:34:46Speaker 03

  Also that, yes.

• 1:34:47Speaker 08

  Also, also that thing. So there is, to me, something that is like generous about the fact that she's willing to do that. And not unlike, by the way, you mentioned him earlier, not unlike Eric Church. I think like Eric Church has also lent his credibility to be like, Morgan Wallen, there was something about this guy that I want to rescue, but I don't really know what it is yet. And Eric Church sort of like continues to not really give up on Morgan Wallen. Neither has Miranda for that matter. And I think like whether that's a purely financial thing or it's just a good for the brand, or there is something generative about that creative partnership.

• 1:35:27Speaker 08

  I don't know, but my sense of Miranda is that she will just go wherever there is a good songwriting partnership to go. And she'll credibly blend in, which is quite not an easy thing to do.

• 1:35:39Speaker 03

  No. Just to wrap up, and this is an absurd, huge, broad question, and I'm sorry. Is alt-country a real thing? No, I mean, like, I feel like country music, country music in particular is the kind of thing, like, you find an artist you like and you immediately have to be like, they're not like all this shit on the radio, right? Like, you, you, even saying, like, I listen to everything but country, you know, I, I listen to everything but like, these country people. Even if you're in a country, you find something that define countries from you and you define that against the rest of country. Like, is, are there so many alternatives and so many outlaws in country music that no one is really an outlaw anymore?

• 1:36:19Speaker 08

  Well, I think the, the thing that helped us a lot for a long time is when we look at the country machine in Nashville and say, they're backing this person, and that feels artificial to me. There was like, there was a need to say, I don't buy into that. I'm too clever to buy into that thing. And I think that's like, that's where that's coming from, is saying, I don't mess with the machine that is that big. I don't mess with the machine that is that diabolical, you know? Because it does feel quite deliberate and quite, um, you know, some, not evil, but like, uh, trying to manipulate you in directions, you know? Shall we say?

• 1:36:55Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:36:57Speaker 08

  But there was, there's a great clip, I think it's from 2018, 2019, when Tyler Childress wins an award at the Academy of Country Music Awards for like, Best Americana Artist or something. And he goes up and he says, Americana ain't no part of nothing, you know?

• 1:37:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37:15Speaker 08

  And it's, it's both a reference to Bill Monroe, Father Bluegrass, but also a larger reference to this idea of like, you can't trick us into saying we're not making country music, just because you want to keep the label to yourself, you evil jerks.

• 1:37:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:37:33Speaker 08

  And what has been, I think, heartening for me to watch in the last little while is that even though the industry is very interested in keeping up that label, you know, I feel like the artists themselves are actually like, ah, that doesn't really mean anything. Like, the idea of like, all country doesn't mean anything. Like, Ciara Farrell is opening for Post Malone. What is happening?

• 1:37:56Speaker 03

  She's awesome.

• 1:37:57Speaker 08

  She's so good! She's so good.

• 1:38:00Speaker 03

  She's awesome.

• 1:38:01Speaker 08

  You know, and, and, and which is to say that there's something about like, even though the people try to sort of like keep these worlds apart and try to say like, this has credibility, but this doesn't have credibility. It's really a matter of like, what's your proximity to Capitol? And what's your proximity to like a larger machine? But I don't think, you know, I don't think we need to sort of like hold on to the label so much as kind of like, it just tells us who's in, in, who's bathed in Nashville's golden light at the moment and who's not. And incidentally, all the people who are like no longer in that light, they mysteriously move away and say, you know, I'm making a little something art alt country now, which is like, no, you're just making country music without the support of a big machine dude.

• 1:38:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:38:43Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 1:38:43Speaker 03

  Uh, in conclusion, uh, the bare naked lady, you, you will be coming back on this show, El Amin, to discuss at exhausting length, the bare naked ladies. I'm going to make that happen. The time has come.

• 1:38:55Speaker 08

  That's a great point of our time said, don't threaten me with a good time, buddy, because I'll do it. I'll, are you kidding?

• 1:39:02Speaker 03

  Was that the bare naked ladies? I forget, I forget.

• 1:39:05Speaker 08

  The Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift said that. That's a Taylor Swift quote.

• 1:39:09Speaker 03

  Oh, okay. I thought that was from Brian.

• 1:39:13Speaker 03

  I got that, I got that wrong. Uh, this has been wonderful as always. El Amin, it's so good to talk to you. Thank you so much.

• 1:39:19Speaker 08

  Rob, you're a delight. Uh, thank you so much for doing this. Cannot wait for the disturbed episode. It's going to be, it's going to be one for the books, I think.

• 1:39:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're, we're going to do that next. Disturbed, disturbed and bare naked ladies in the next two episodes. It's been decided. Thank you for your guidance.

• 1:39:33Speaker 08

  My pleasure. Thank you, friend.

• 1:39:37Speaker 03

  Thanks very much to our guest this week, El Amin Abdul-Makmud. Thanks as always to our producers, Christopher Sutton, Olivia Creary and Justin Sayles. And thanks very much to you for listening. And now please, let's all go listen to Miranda Lambert's The House That Built Me. We'll see you next week.

• 1:40:29Speaker 09

  The holidays sound a little different when we show up for one another. And for families facing hunger, your generosity could mean one less difficult choice. Across the Feeding America network, your donation fulfills the promise of connecting families to nourishing food and greater stability. When you give this holiday season, you help ensure more neighbors can gather around a meal. This Thanksgiving, give at feedingamerica.org/holiday.