Get your sh*t together: How to achieve work life balance

September always has a back-to-school feeling, so this episode is all about getting back into a successful work routine after the summer, without burning yourself out... In this episode – -Entrepreneur Grace Beverley chats through how to set boundaries to create a work life balance that works for you, and how to create new organisation habits so you can spend less time procrastinating -Researcher Brene Brown tackles perfectionism and how self-compassion can stop you putting so much pressure on yourself -UniLad founder Alex Partridge offers some practical tips if you’re feeling anxious at work, including asking for flexible hours and advocating for walking meetings -Fashion and beauty mogul Trinny Woodall explains how she’s built her professional confidence and how she deals with rejection -Olympic swimmer Ellie Simmonds gives relatable advice about how to know when it’s time to quit and find a new career passion Listen to the full episodes here – Grace Beverley https://pod.fo/e/24b043 Brene Brown https://pod.fo/e/fb13f Alex Partridge https://pod.fo/e/26ccd6 Trinny Woodall https://pod.fo/e/2ff42d Ellie Simmonds https://pod.fo/e/2d721d Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. Today, well, it's September, which, I'm sorry, no matter how old you get, means that back-to-school feeling. So after a hopefully brilliantly fun summer, let's get back into a successful work routine without burning ourselves out.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  What people don't understand is that where perfectionism drives us, shame is there.

• 0:54Speaker 03

  Self-care is a form of productivity and you cannot have productivity without self-care, but also you cannot have self-care without being productive.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Perfectionism says to us, hey, if you look perfect, work perfect and do it all perfectly, I can help you avoid ever feeling judgment, blame, criticism or failure.

• 1:11Speaker 04

  If someone is over-committing and saying yes to everything, that's often because they struggle to assert boundaries and that's a symptom of anxiety.

• 1:20Speaker 05

  You've got to leave and think how much of it was, the fact is a shit idea, how much of it was that they're just looking for something else. So I had to really try and objectively judge why somebody had rejected me.

• 1:30Speaker 06

  We talk about my mental strength from being an athlete. I feel like since retirement, I do have a lot more struggles mentally.

• 1:37Speaker 05

  How much do you trust your intuition around something versus thinking, I'm not professional at this, so somebody else should do things?

• 1:44Speaker 06

  Waking up and having a bit of purpose is very important.

• 1:48Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my gosh, there's going to be so much good stuff in this episode that I need to remind myself of, quite frankly, but I hope it will be really useful for you too, no matter where you're at with your relationship with work and ambition and motivation at the moment. We're going to start with Grace Beverley. She is going to chat through how to set boundaries to create a work-life balance that works for you. Brené Brown, one of my heroes, tackling a big old topic. Perfectionism, I need that one. And Alex Partridge is coming to us live from last year's Happy Place Festival, offering some really practical tips if you're feeling anxious at work. Then Trinny Woodall gets into how she's built her professional confidence

• 2:32Fearne Cotton?

  and how she deals with rejection, it's a big one. Ellie Simmons has some great relatable advice about how to know when it's time to quit and find a new career passion. And then we're back to Grace Beverley, who'll help you create new organisation habits so you can spend less time procrastinating and more time enjoying the work you're doing.

• 2:56Speaker 07

  This is Nick and Jack from the best one yet, and we are excited to tell you about Walmart Business. Staying ahead of business trends means moving fast and adapting quickly. Walmart Business helps you simplify operations so you can focus on building the next big thing. Find exactly what your organisation needs with their ever-expanding business assortment and everyday low prices. Keep your momentum going fast with reliable shipping and fulfilment. Eligible organisations can take advantage of tax-free shopping, both in-store and online, saving you more while getting you everything you need. It's Walmart built for your business. Sign up for a free Walmart Business account today at business.walmart.com.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Confidence, it's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York. Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona. Finding the right size rug can be hard. Enter Ernesta. Designer-quality, custom-sized rugs, cut to the exact size of your room and delivered in as little as two weeks.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Not sure of the size or the material? Start with five samples for just $10 today to see them in your own light and match to your decor. Plus, get $50 toward any rug of your choice. Visit ernesta.com today. That's E-R-N-E-S-T-A dot com.

• 4:36Fearne Cotton?

  Right, here we go. This is the show.

• 5:01Fearne Cotton?

  You wrote a book, Working Hard Hardly Working, which totally dives into this subject matter of being successful, yet not burning yourself out, and knowing what your strengths are, and putting boundaries in place so that you don't completely crumble and burn out. You're running three successful businesses, the onus is on you, if they're not doing well, you can't run and hide, they're your babies, you want them to succeed, yet you don't want to hit burnout. And I think also, it's a very Western, but also very British thing for us to boast about how busy we are. Some people do that, not everybody. Or just be absolutely drowning in tiredness because you're pushing yourself. And you say in the

• 5:43Fearne Cotton?

  book, we are at this sort of strange point where you're either, or you're not sure if you're completely burnt out, or by social media standards, not quite productive enough. Some of us are just like, I don't know which one I am. I'm sort of burnt out, but also, am I doing enough? I'm not achieving enough. And we're all a bit sort of lost in that, maybe.

• 6:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it's a hugely important topic when it comes to actually diving into where you sit within that, and what our own boundaries are, and understanding that self-care is a form of productivity, and you cannot have productivity without self-care, but also you cannot have self-care without being productive. Like, sometimes self-care is about reaching that deadline that you said you would reach three times, and now, you know, you're letting it not happen again. Like, there are two sides of this, and it's really hard to know on social media. I think one of the biggest issues is the fact that you're talking to so many people, and you don't know if that person needs a little push at that moment, or if they do need to sit back, or whatever it might be. I think in terms of what I've done to be able to get to a point where I, at the moment, and like, you know...

• 6:44Speaker 03

  Comes in waves, but at the moment feel like I've got a good balance of, you know, what I'm happy with. It's a number of different things. It's understanding that balance is not a fifty fifty at all. If I've set up my work in the right way, then I really love what what I'm doing. And like, that doesn't need to be the same for everyone. And some people can think that going home at seven from the office is like terrible. But actually, like, I I love work in lots of ways and I'm really, really fortunate to be in the position I'm in, working on something so amazing. And like, why, why shouldn't I love it? And actually knowing that actually that doesn't need to be, my mum said something the other day that like really resonated with me. Someone had said to her, it's like, you're never happy, you're always wanting to go to the like next thing and you've just finished this one and now you wanna do this one.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  And like, you just need to, like, you just need to, and she was like, no, you don't understand, I'm happy because I'm doing all of these things all the time. And I was like, oh, my god, that's me.

• 7:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  And I've always like ingrained it in the way where I think that like, there's something wrong with me because I'm wanting to do the next thing and go on to the next thing. And aim for whatever it might be. And I like scold myself constantly, like, you should just do this, you should just do this. And actually, we are all different types of people. And actually, that that's what's making me feel energized at the moment, like, that's absolutely fine. And that's a hugely fortunate position to be in and like, great. If that, if the thing that you enjoy can also be the thing that makes you money and like all of these things, don't get me wrong, you're not gonna enjoy every day of it. But it is, you know, it's a great position to be in. I think boundaries are a huge, huge part.

• 8:09Fearne Cotton?

  How are you with those?

• 8:10Speaker 03

  I have got better and better. And I think that running a company, you can't have a certain amount of boundaries because if it needs you, it needs you. But I also think that you can have the rest of the day, you can't use that as an excuse to not set any boundaries the rest of the time. So, for example, I have some really hard and fast rules around like how I spend my week. So I, on weeknights, I will only do things two days, like I will not go any further than that. And like, if it looks like I'm free on those extra days, it's, I'm not free. Like, that's time for myself and I know the second I go over that threshold is the second that everything will be affected.

• 8:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Work, home life, personal tasks, like whatever it might be, I know that I cannot go over that threshold. So it's a one in, one out process. It's understanding like how I recharge as a whole, it's understanding how to. Say no to things, even if they sound like great things because you've got too many things in that week or whatever it might be. A huge part of it as well as an entrepreneur has been hiring people that are better than me at what they do. Like your team and your business is only ever as good as the people within it. And like learning to hire really fantastic people and relinquish control and delegate effectively. Has been without a doubt the best thing for my mental health, but also for the business.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  I think that there is, you know, even at a managerial level, so not even looking at like the entrepreneurship kind of angle. We're ingrained with this kind of fear that makes us hire people that are not as good as us. Like it's seen as this, it's like a protection mechanism because you don't want to feel worse about yourself and you don't want to feel replaceable. But actually, I think that there's a huge amount of value in always, always, always hiring the best person that you could possibly hire. And like, if that means that they can take over like all of this and they can make you be able to do something else or whatever it might be, fantastic. Being able to delegate and relinquish control has been so, so, so important in order to mean that the business is not me.

• 10:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, it goes back to looking at your strengths again and knowing that you can play to them. I'm the same with, you know, like Anushka who edits the podcast. I can't edit a podcast. I haven't got a fucking clue, but I, if I then work with someone who's brilliant at what they do, I've got more time and energy to go, right? How am I going to research this podcast as well as I can? How am I going to create a new idea for something? It's about really playing to your strengths rather than trying to be everything for everybody, which is ultimately going to lead you to burnout.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  I started as a shame researcher twenty something years, twenty one years ago, I guess. And I first started studying just women in shame. And I remember interviewing people, you know, in their fifties, sixties that their whole lives were defined by it. And for those of you listening, thinking, okay, what is she talking about with shame? I'm talking about this deeply painful experience of believing.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  That we're flawed and somehow unworthy of love and belonging and connection. That something we've done or failed to do makes us unworthy. And it's very different than guilt. Guilt is, I did something bad. And shame is, I am bad. And we know from, you know, now probably going on 60, 70 years of research, that guilt is helpful. Guilt is when I hold a behavior up against who I want to be and my values.

• 11:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  And there's cognitive dissonance. It creates a psychological discomfort and we're like, shit, that is not who I want to be as a daughter, as a partner, as, you know, a professor or a leader. And I need to, I need to bring things into alignment. Shame is a whole different thing. Shame is, I'm not enough. I think the good news is, I think what you need is probably self compassion. You know, when I think about self compassion, I always think about, talk to myself like I would talk to someone I love. And when I hold up how I talk to myself, when I screw something up versus how I talk to my children, it's just, it's night and day. You know, if I, if my kids make a mistake, I'll first say, you know what?

• 12:15Speaker 02

  It's okay, you're human. Making mistakes is a part of, this is part, this is a part of who we are.

• 12:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  You know, when I make a mistake personally, I think to myself, God, you idiot. God, you're so stupid. And I would never, ever talk to my kids that way.

• 12:30Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think it's getting worse because the notion of perfectionism is ubiquitous, you know, now more than ever? It's, and we can see, we can't see it, but we think we can see it on social media. This weird elusive perfection that we'll never quite reach. And therefore self compassion is sort of dwindling because we, we think we're missing the mark constantly because there's this amazing perfection that we'll never quite get to.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  It's really interesting that you brought up perfectionism at this point in our conversation because what people don't understand is that where perfectionism drives us, shame is there. So perfectionism is a function of shame.

• 13:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really funny.

• 13:13Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's such a painful lesson to learn. Like I'm, I'm processing it as you're saying it going, of course, this is why I keep fucking up.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it's so, it was really funny. A million years ago, when I, when I thought it was just me first came out, I did like a, I had a little microphone on my kitchen table at home and I did a little read along. And someone emailed and said, oh, man, I know this book is on shame in women. Uh, my friends and I don't really do shame, but we have a lot of perfectionism. If you ever decide to do anything on perfectionism, will you send an email blast out? And then there was like a five line signature, like her name, her title, her company. But then under the signature, there was a little PS that said, the two are not related, are they? Yeah. And so I wrote back.

• 14:00Fearne Cotton?

  And the bad news is?

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Yes. And the bad news is, yes, because let me, let's break down perfectionism because it's so helpful to understand it. So the thing to understand is that in the research, in data and, and by social psychologists and neurologists and neurobiology people, the opposite of perfectionism is healthy striving or striving for excellence. So for people who are successful at striving for excellence, perfectionism is not the path, it's the greatest barrier. So what perfectionism is, is actually one of our most dangerous defense mechanisms.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Perfectionism says to us, hey, Fern, if you look perfect, work perfect and do it all perfectly, I can help you avoid ever feeling judgment, blame, criticism, or failure. You just need to do it all perfectly. I'm right here, we can do that. So what it is, it's a defense mechanism against shame, judgment, belittlement, failure. So we try to do it and inevitably we fail because perfection doesn't exist. But for those of us, and it's really, it's really a process addiction. Because for those of us, myself included, who struggle with perfectionism, when we make a mistake, or when we inevitably, regardless of how well we do something, feel shame, criticism,

• 15:28Speaker 02

  blame, we don't say to ourselves, man, this shit does not work. I'm not doing this. We say, I wasn't quite perfect enough.

• 15:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. What a horrible little vicious circle.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Vicious, yeah. So then we double down. So I call perfectionism the 20-ton shield. We think we carry it around to keep us from being hurt. But what it actually does is it keeps us from being seen. And it is so addictive.

• 15:59Speaker 04

  And in the workplace, again, it's spotting the signs of anxiety. The biggest manifestation of neurodiversity in the workplace is always anxiety. Spotting what an anxious employee looks like. Is someone abruptly removing themselves from a, from a situation, from a meeting? Is someone turning up late when, before they were quite punctual? Is someone saying yes to everything? If someone is over committing and saying yes to everything, that's often because they struggle to assert boundaries. And that's a symptom of anxiety. Recognizing what an anxious employee looks like. And I think as business owners, the, what the, the key takeaway I've learned is that if you accommodate neurodiversity,

• 16:44Speaker 04

  if you put things in place that enables the neurodivergent mind to become activated, there's so many positives. And how do we do that? We can allow people to have flexible start times. So many people come into work and they're already frazzled because they've been overwhelmed by the rush hour traffic or the busy tube. And in meetings, don't let the loudest voice dictate the decision to a problem. Give the problem to the group and then let them, let the whole company go away. And in their own time, they can submit solutions to the problem. Because if you let the loud employee in the, in the meeting dictate the decision, quite often the neurodivergent employee will be sat there at the table tapping their foot,

• 17:29Speaker 04

  biting their fingernails, too anxious to contribute. More often than not, the best ideas are trapped inside anxious mind. And things like normalizing fidget toys and noise cancelling headphones, giving a map of the building. There's so many things that if you accommodate neurodiversity within your business, then you'll give yourself a competitive advantage over your competition.

• 17:52Fearne Cotton?

  If you are in the workplace and you've got a diagnosis or not, but you've got an inkling, maybe listening to this very chat has made someone go, God, yeah, a lot of this is really ringing true. If you are in the workplace and that anxiety is eating away at you, how can we put things in place to help ourselves? Because yes, you're right. If you are a business owner, everything you've just listed is so highly important that we create a really diverse workplace where everybody's got a say and that we're accommodating for how people's minds work very differently. But I think, you know, I I've perhaps worked out a few coping mechanisms, like, you know, doing a festival like this is not necessarily a calming scenario,

• 18:35Fearne Cotton?

  not gonna lie. This morning felt like running into that woodland and never coming back. And I can put a few things in place to just dampen that anxiety. But I've certainly had times in other jobs where the anxiety has been so intense that I've left the job. You know, I left covering for Zoe Borne Radio 2 because I couldn't get a hold of that anxiety. And my brain was so fizzy and so nonstop that it was too much. What do you do if you're in a situation where you're like, oh, that feeling is coming on up, it's there. What are you, what are you doing to just quieten that down a bit?

• 19:14Speaker 04

  Recognizing it is super important. Recognizing your own early signs of anxiety and advocating for yourself. I think the intuition that so many of us have is so strong. Advocating for yourself in business is finding a buddy in the company that you work for and being confident to be able to open up with them and tell them, I'm struggling now. Can you cover for me? And actually just allowing, I think movement is so important. If I'm having an anxious moment, just standing up and walking around the office or advocating for walking meetings is so important. I mean, there's loads of breathing techniques you can do. You can remove yourself from the

• 19:57Speaker 04

  situation. You can take a time out. All of these are useful things. I always have a fidget toy if I'm doing a podcast. I don't today. But

• 20:07Speaker 04

  Putting movement into the situation, recognizing what caused the anxiety is super important. Recognizing what was said, what happened that triggered that thought, and how you're responding to it. I think body doubling is a super useful tool to cure anxiety because it lowers the expectations and it takes the pressure off when you're in that office, when you're in that office and that anxiety is peaking. If you've got someone who you can lean on in that moment and actually you feel safe with that person, then the workload is spread between the two of you. You're allowed to work from home. It's really important to

• 20:51Speaker 04

  understand the legal obligations that companies have. If you're struggling with anxiety, you're allowed to ask to work from home. You're allowed to ask for flexible start times. You're allowed to have a quiet space in the office and to decompress and to advocate for walking meetings around the office. So there's lots of things that legally you're allowed to do if anxiety is really disabling you from doing the job that you're capable of doing if you were working in an environment that was tailored to your brain. Understanding what those are, you don't have to have a diagnosis of any neurodivergent conditions to ask for these things. And I think it's important to really recognize your rights as an employee. Anxiety should never stop you from achieving and

• 21:36Speaker 04

  being able to do what you're able to do.

• 21:42Speaker 07

  This is Nick and Jack from the best one yet, and we are excited to tell you about Walmart Business. Staying ahead of business trends means moving fast and adapting quickly. Walmart Business helps you simplify operations so you can focus on building the next big thing. Find exactly what your organization needs with their ever-expanding business assortment and everyday low prices. Keep your momentum going fast with reliable shipping and fulfillment. Eligible organizations can take advantage of tax-free shopping, both in-store and online, saving you more while getting you everything you need. It's Walmart built for your business. Sign up for a free Walmart Business account today at business.walmart.com.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  Confidence, it's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York. Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona. A rug shouldn't just fit your room. It should make your home feel finished. Ernesta creates designer-quality rugs, custom fit to the exact size of your space,

• 23:01Speaker 03

  so every room feels beautifully pulled together. Explore Ernesta's range of options, all ready to be custom-cut, finished, and delivered to your door in as little as two weeks. Start with five samples for just $10 and get $50 toward your rug when you order. Visit ernesta.com today. That's E-R-N-E-S-T-A dot com.

• 23:25Fearne Cotton?

  All right, let's get back to it with Trinny Woodall, Ellie Simmons, and Grace Beverley.

• 23:31Speaker 05

  I think when our self-worth is in a great place, that applies to our personal life because then we value our love for ourselves and therefore how people treat us in their life and decisions we make. So I think that's very my personal life. And with work, my wouldn't should could comes from trust. Trust of the team, trust they're making the right decision, trust I'm making the right decision. It's more about trust. So if in my personal life I have times of questioning, it's about my self-worth. And in work, it's about trust. That's how I separate it out.

• 24:04Fearne Cotton?

  I totally get that. And I think when you, especially when you look at the work bit, when you love what you do and you so desperately want it to be perfect, if I'm talking from my perspective, I want things to go really bloody well. It's hard to trust because you've got to let go, relinquish control, let other people do things, and hope for the best some of the time. And that is a tricky one. Do you, where does your sense of, I guess in your work life and your personal life, your sense of... Confidence come from in what you're doing and those decisions you're making. Like you say, you know, maybe you learned a lot of these lessons early on in life and you understood there'd be consequences to things in your actual life.

• 24:49Fearne Cotton?

  Are there any moments in particular that stand out, maybe in your early years where you thought that was a lesson I really didn't want to learn, but I had to. And it's given you the resilience, the drive, the confidence.

• 25:01Speaker 05

  I think when you have an idea for something, so I had an idea of something before I started Twenty London in 98. Susanna and I were doing a column in The Telegraph and the internet came about and there wasn't even e-comm, but I loved it. I'd always loved tech. I'd had my first Apple in 84, right? I'd been obsessed. And so I said, Susanna, we want to do something online because I think everyone's going to go online, we need to do stuff. So I did for a weekend, this fast I was doing in this AVM bottle and it was this red powder. And I think because I just wanted clarity and somebody said, if you have a good idea, to have two days where you just have this fast and your brain will become clearer. All right.

• 25:44Speaker 05

  So after day two, my brain was fried and I felt shit.

• 25:47Fearne Cotton?

  You felt hungry and motivated.

• 25:48Speaker 05

  Day three, I had clarity. So I wrote down what I felt the idea was and I shared it with Susanna. And then we went off to see Cable and Wireless, which is a now defunct company, but they were a company who had done some promotion with The Horse Whisperer, which had a CD-ROM, CD-ROM, let's take back to those days.

• 26:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, off the copy desk.

• 26:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, which had something to do with e-comm and not e-comm, but just online. I think they had a site online and anyway, but I just thought they're the people who know stuff. I mean, that's how embryonic it was. So we went to see this one, we said, we wanted to, you know, have a destination online. Women call it Ready2, have all these different, you know, cooking area, beauty area, clothing area, everything. And she said, what money are you wanting to raise? I said five hundred thousand. Suzanne had kicked me hard under the table because this was not in the script. And um and she said, why the fuck do you ask? And I said, well, I just had to have a number out of my head. So then two weeks later, we get an email. I think there were emails by then. And she said, you you didn't ask the right amount. We're going to, we think it's six hundred and fifty thousand pounds you need.

• 26:50Speaker 05

  Um, and um, you know, I was like, what do you want in return? She said, well, we want the logo of cable and wireless on on the website. So then we started a business from that and then we raised money. And it was a time called dot com boom. It was when everybody was making money. So it was a time when you'd go to, there would used to be this red herring conference. So Michael from Calm was talking about, I was talking, it was really early cowboy days. So very quickly, we hired sixty people and I thought, I'm not, I don't know how to run a business, so I'll hire a CEO. I don't know how to market this thing. So I'll, you know, so literally Suzanne and I were the founders. I worked crazy at it. Yeah. Uh, in a, in a intense, overworking way. I'd call Suzanne around after eight thirty, she'd just had a baby and say, where are you?

• 27:35Speaker 05

  And she'd say, I'm breastfeeding. And I said, well, when are you coming in? You know, there wasn't even, well, how is the baby? You know, it was very. All my attention was on this, but I did hire in these people thinking I'm not qualified to do this. I sort of have an intuitive idea. And within eighteen months, maybe two years, we had to close a business. And Suzanne was going off having another baby and I had to close a business. And I remember sitting now in this tiny office because we'd had to give up the lease. I had to let everyone go. I'd wanted to give them all three months' salary. They were a really great set of girls. And I sat there in this office feeling really low, thinking what the fuck is next, you know?

• 28:14Speaker 05

  And I went off to a retreat in Arizona called Cottonwood, which is a rehab, but they do retreats for afterwards when you're just doing work on yourself and you're in recovery. And it was, it's called an inner path workshop. So it was about getting to know yourself, looking at your fears and all that stuff. And I remember doing this cacti walk through a bit of the garden, looking out at the desert. And I had that moment of saying.

• 28:39Speaker 05

  I don't necessarily, a higher power is that concept of something that is stronger than you.

• 28:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 05

  And I just said, whatever's going to come has come, but let me be open to whatever is going to come. So I'm open, I'm not trying to write the script. I'm surrendering because it's, you know, this last six months has been hell. And I came back to England and Susanna and I about nine months before we'd done Pilot for the BBC. And then they called up, so will you do the show about two weeks after? So, but that moment had really made me question all these things about how much do you trust your intuition around something versus thinking, I'm not professional at this. So somebody else should do things. So when I started Trinny London nine years ago, I mean, 10 years ago, I had the idea, but we launched seven or eight years ago. I did the opposite of what I did then. So I've got to trust my gut.

• 29:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:27Speaker 05

  And I have this big thing, the difference between intuition and instinct. So if I think of instinct, for me, it's, you know, step away from the stove, it's hot.

• 29:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:36Speaker 05

  And it's generally for me, a stepping back. It's like, you know, whereas intuition is something is hitting you in your stomach and it will guide you forward. So I nearly think one is more positive than the other. You know, in- instinct can be protective, you know, you run down the street and there's a car coming at you, you know, you instinct to get out of its way.

• 29:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:55Speaker 05

  But intuition is more interesting and it's when we really value our intuition. So in those early days of Trinny London, I had to really value and say, Trinny, you know, know that you know women in this way, know that you, you know, stick to remembering this. And moments when I felt, will anyone ever get the idea? You know, I saw lots of people to raise money once I'd kind of got to a certain stage. And I saw 250 people and one did, you know, so just that when you, it's like being a, an actress where you're continuously turned down for a role. So you've got to leave the role, you know, you've got to leave and think how much of it was the fact it's a shit idea, how much of it was that they're just looking for something else? How much of it was that maybe they saw some people this morning?

• 30:38Speaker 05

  And in fact, they never want to invest in this area anyway. So I had to really try and objectively judge why somebody had rejected me.

• 30:47Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I'm always fascinated, whenever I've interviewed sports personalities, about the bit after you retire essentially, because you know that that career is not going to go on forever. Sporting careers, you know, depending on what the sport is, they do stop early. So you've always got that thought of what's next, but you've also got this mindset that is naturally competitive, otherwise you wouldn't be in sport in the first place. You've obviously filled your time greatly, you've been making award-winning documentaries, doing lots of charitable efforts as well. I mean, was that a thought during your professional swimming career? Like, what is next? What do I do after this?

• 31:23Speaker 06

  Do you know what, it's funny, because we have an amazing support system when we are in the pool and with the team. And they're always telling us to think about what's next, like to plan the future. But when you're so in the zone and so just bubble-wrapped in your career as a swimmer, you never actually think about the future. For me as well, especially, I think being so young, from Beijing, 13, and London 2012, the biggest games for myself, and having a home game, so I was 17. So I never really focused on school and education, and I'm not the most academic anyway. So I didn't have that to fall back on.

• 32:05Speaker 06

  But still, I was so just wrapped up in being a swimmer that I never really thought about the future. So when I made that decision to retire, there was that massive question, what is next? And I didn't know, and I don't know. Like, I'm very thankful and grateful for all the opportunities that I'm getting. But you lose a massive part of yourself and that identity. And it's really funny, actually, because I love planning, like, I love being organised. I'm getting more relaxed now, not being a swimmer and not having that structure. But it's funny, when I was a swimmer, I knew where I had to be, not just a day, but the week, the year, the four-year cycle of a Paralympics. And then all of a sudden, that goes out the window, and I actually hadn't planned my future.

• 32:48Speaker 06

  But I think, in a way, I was the total opposite, because swimming was so regimented. I needed that escapism, I needed to get away. Away from being so regimented that I could wake up and do whatever I wanted to do. But actually, there's pros and cons to that. The pros is that I've got this freedom to do whatever. But then the cons are just too much choice and I didn't actually know what I wanted to do. So, yeah, it was very much figuring things out. And also, I think the it's funny, like, we talk about my mental strength from being an athlete. I feel like since retirement, I do have a lot more struggles mentally because you, for me, when I was a swimmer,

• 33:29Speaker 06

  I had that tangible thing that I knew I was good at. My medals were something that gave me confidence. Whereas now, you say, like, maybe winning a BAFTA or something is is good, but you're still, like, questioning to yourself, actually, what am I good at now? Like, that thing that was swimming has gone and there's nothing to grip on to, to give me that security that I'm okay, that I'm working hard or that I'm doing something, you know?

• 33:54Fearne Cotton?

  So interesting. I think so many people grapple with this, the the amount of your self-esteem that comes from achievement. And also what, not only what you know you're good at, but what other people see you as. So other people are like, you are, you know, an elite athlete and that is that is your identity. So then when you're not in that arena, you're free falling, you know, what what am I? Who am I?

• 34:18Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 34:18Fearne Cotton?

  It's a really big question. Do you do you feel any closer to figuring it out or even caring about figuring it out?

• 34:24Speaker 06

  You know what? I think caring, yeah, I'd like to, I don't know, have that confidence to know that I'm okay at something or good at something. But there is still that questionable thing, like, you're still even four years retired now and I love, I I'm trying to, I think I'm getting to the point where, whereas I'm now figuring out what I don't like doing, which I think helps to

• 34:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 06

  figure things out. So I'm like, I know what I'm liking doing. So I think that's helping because I think happiness is the biggest thing. And I think I'm getting to that point where I'm loving what I'm doing work-wise and I'm loving what I'm doing social-wise. So I'm getting that balance better.

• 35:00Fearne Cotton?

  I guess the pendulum swings back a bit because I remember even like watching that Usain Bolt documentary, which I just absolutely Loved and you could see towards the end of his professional career, he was so desperate to go to Rio Carnival, party, drink loads. It was like, he felt, you know, because you do miss out on it all. Your life, as you said, is so regimented. I'm imagining you're in the pool at like 5am every day. You're just, it's your life. And, and then when you get the opportunity to do all the other stuff, it's like, I can do all of it. But of course, that's not sustainable either. You know, there is that moment of balance where, you know, you've got the structure, but it's not as regimented. But equally, you're not just, you know, moving about, doing whatever you want, whenever you want. Because that then becomes boring.

• 35:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's having that fine balance. And I think for me, I knew when I wanted to retire because I was getting more resentful. I was, whereas beforehand, before leading into Tokyo 2021, before those, couple of years before those games, I was, all I wanted to do was swimming and be with my teammates and be travelling. Whereas I remember going on, riding to the tube to training before Tokyo and be like, if I had time, I could be doing like yoga or I could be doing, hanging out with my friends. So you know mentally that swimming, it was a good time to retire in Tokyo because I was just getting more resentful and I've never, ever been like that. And you want to do, and especially sport, you've got to give everything to it. You've got to live and breathe your sport. You've got to think

• 36:24Speaker 06

  about the things that you do outside the pool. You've got to think about sleep. You've got to think about walking, eating. All this is, just affects your time in the pool. So yeah, I was very much ready to just not think. But again, like you said, to have that balance, I think is really, really important. Because I think we all need purpose, don't we?

• 36:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 36:44Speaker 06

  We all need a purpose to wake up and have something to do. Because if you wake up and think, oh, yes, you've got all this choice. Sometimes too much choice is actually the worst thing because you, you don't know what to do. And waking up and having a bit of purpose is, is very important.

• 37:00Fearne Cotton?

  If there's someone listening to this right now who feels apathetic, unmotivated, just meh, like we've all been through it, when you just feel like, I don't care, I don't know, I don't want to get out of bed, what would your first step be to motivating yourself and getting into a productive mindset?

• 37:20Speaker 03

  So I always talk about the fact that motivation purely comes down to habits, like habits are the backstop for all motivation, you cannot, like no one wakes up and feels motivated first thing in the morning, or some people do, I personally do not at all. It all comes down to habits, like even just you getting out of bed and brushing your teeth and washing your face, like those are habits. So the more things that put you in a productive mindset that become habits, the better. So the productivity method itself is based on a few very simple kind of methodologies. So the first one is to make sure that every single day you are writing down your to-do list, but it's not going to be a to-do list, it's not going to be a list of, an endless

• 38:03Speaker 03

  list of things and you've got kind of like washing your hair and sending a really important email on the same list, weighted to the same importance, when you know that if you just washed your hair today, it probably wouldn't actually be a successful day. You're going to split that to-do list into quick takes, tasks and projects.

• 38:19Fearne Cotton?

  Love. Do you know how much I love lists? You are speaking like I'm almost salivating. Lists to me are the cornerstone to sanity.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  But they are the cornerstone and there is also, there are scientific reasons behind why they are the cornerstone, because when you go about your day and you race into your day and you're starting something straight away without having done this before, you are depriving your body of the dopamine hit it needs by defining what success is, so I need to send this email, and then ticking that off.

• 38:54Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, that tick.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  Without that.

• 38:56Fearne Cotton?

  That tick.

• 38:57Speaker 03

  What dreams are made of.

• 38:59Fearne Cotton?

  I can't, it's, I do a full line through and a tick, done, dead to me, heaven. Is there a better feeling?

• 39:07Speaker 03

  No, I don't think there is, but it's also like when you start to realise that it's like. Your body actually needs it, like you need that dopamine hit of being like, I have done that task. And if you race into your day, feeling like a headless chicken without having got through all of these things, then you are literally depriving yourself of the dopamine hit that you need by defining what success is, AKA writing out your to do list, and ticking it off, achieving success. Like, it's that simple.

• 39:31Fearne Cotton?

  Are you the sort of person that you've got to do the worst thing first? Like, one of my friends said her husband, I'm going to give them a shout out, Liz and Al. Al said to Liz, his saying is, eat your frogs.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  Eat the frog, yeah.

• 39:45Fearne Cotton?

  Eat the frog first. I don't really get the analogy, but I understand the sentiment. Do the worst thing first. Is that a good idea?

• 39:52Speaker 03

  I think you'll know if it's a good idea for you. Some people do need a warm up and I think that we shouldn't like shame people for not all productivity methods working for them. But the point behind it is the fact that like, you gather proof that you can also do today.

• 40:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  So like, first of all, you've got the worst task done, that's amazing. By like, nine fifteen, you're already feeling like pretty good about yourself, but you've also proven to yourself that today's going to be a good day.

• 40:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  So there's like two different sides. There's the psychological side and also the fact that you've ticked it off and literally got it done. But the, the way I do things with this kind of split up to do list is that these quick ticks are under five minutes. The tasks are five to thirty minutes and the projects are thirty minutes plus.

• 40:32Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 40:32Speaker 03

  And like, you can kid yourself that it's going to take longer than a to do list, but it like, it's categorically not, you're still just writing things down.

• 40:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I like this.

• 40:39Speaker 03

  You're just putting them into their pre-aligned place. And then what you're going to do is you're going to choose out of those, so it can be from any category. You're going to choose three non-negotiables. And the reason for this again is it's the dopamine thing, but it's also that it's so easy to look at a huge list, whether it's split up into categories or not, and feel completely overwhelmed and feel like, oh my god, I can't get this done today. And the whole point is, is that actually probably if you chose three things on that list and you got them done and they weren't all quick ticks, that would be a successful day.

• 41:10Fearne Cotton?

  Oh hugely.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  But what so many people do is they get this kind of fear and you end up procrastinating by either doing less important tasks or by just looking at it and being like, oh my god, there's so much to do. And it's like, take it three ticks at a time, like honestly, just three ticks at a time, but work out by the end of this day, which are the three things in that to do table, which is what we call it. What are those three things in that to do table that you absolutely need to have got done?

• 41:35Fearne Cotton?

  Heaven.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  You prove to yourself again and again and again, that today doesn't need to be big. It doesn't need to be getting everything done. What what it cannot be is you spending day after day after day, getting overwhelmed at how many things there are that need to be done, rather than like breaking that down into day side tasks.

• 41:51Fearne Cotton?

  And feeling worse because you haven't done them. There's nothing worse. Like, I've got one thing on my list that I keep thinking. Oh, God. And it's just, it's still on there. It's still on my same bloody post-it and it hasn't gone. And I know that if I just do it tomorrow.

• 42:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:03Fearne Cotton?

  Which I can, I feel so much lighter and better. We underestimate that amazing feeling.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  And we, yeah, we underestimate as well proving to ourself on like a micro level that like, we can do it. I'm like, it sounds so childish and it sounds so like, but we do like you, you have a really hard day. You finish the day, you feel drained, you get home, you you're dreading the next day already. You get up in the morning, you need to prove to yourself that you can do today before you start proving to yourself that you can't.

• 42:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:34Speaker 03

  And that's what writing down this to do table and those three non-negotiables do. Like, that's literally all it is.

• 42:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:39Speaker 03

  And if you need, if you're the type of person that needs to eat the frog as well, and you need to like do the worst task first, like you know how good you'll feel tomorrow if you do that task first thing.

• 42:49Fearne Cotton?

  I think that purpose part from Ellie is so important. The work or the job itself can change over time, but it's so useful to have had that chat with yourself about what you fundamentally feel fired up about achieving. Or giving back to the world. My work-life balance is a roller coaster. So over the summer, like many of you parents. It was an absolute shit show of a juggle, trying to keep the kids entertained, keep on top of work. I had the Happy Place Festival, so it was all quite overwhelming. So I actually. Really like September. I really like the kids getting back into the school routine. I've got the chance to get a little bit more organised in the day.

• 43:30Fearne Cotton?

  I know how Monday to Friday works and I really want to prioritise using my time wisely. So I'm not procrastinating as much, so I can have more downtime, more time to try and do nothing, which I'm absolutely dreadful at. That is my latest goal. A massive thanks to everyone whose voices you've heard today. There'll be links in the show notes to their full episodes if you want to listen back. Big thank you to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios and to you, I love you.

• 44:25Speaker 02

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• 44:41Speaker 02

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• 44:59Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  And Maisie Adam.

• 45:01Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 45:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 45:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 45:22Fearne Cotton?

  You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.