The Lawyer’s Method to Shut Down Narcissism

If you’ve ever walked away from a conversation feeling spun, rattled, or subtly controlled, this episode is for you. Drawing directly from my experience as a trial lawyer, I break down the exact strategy I use in court to disarm manipulative and narcissistic behavior—without escalating, over-explaining, or losing your footing. You’ll learn how to stop their momentum, respond in a way that gives them nothing to grab onto, and use one powerful phrase that instantly puts you back in control of the conversation. Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 40% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Monarch Money. 50% off your first year at https://monarchmoney.com/jefferson BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my new book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from Star.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Make them remember you.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 0:15Jefferson Fisher?

  As a trial attorney, I have to disarm manipulative people. And in this episode, I'm going to share with you the number one strategy that works every single time. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tips to improve your communication, I'm going to ask you to please subscribe wherever you are listening, wherever you see it, click subscribe, a like, a heart, whatever. It really helps me, helps my family, and it helps me continue this mission to improve everybody's communication. This podcast is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I am a big fan of Cozy Earth, long before they sponsored me, because as the name suggests, it's very cozy stuff.

• 0:59Jefferson Fisher?

  I first got the product from a bed sheet. That was admittedly, I have no shame in saying, I was new bed sheets. And I was like, these are some of the best I've ever had, because I'm a, I sleep very hot, and these bamboo sheets were fantastic. And then that was just kind of the gateway. Then it's towels, then it was hoodies and sweatshirts and sweatpants and regular pants and t-shirts. I'm a big fan of it. If you like premium products that feel good, that feel comfortable this holiday season, you need to go try Cozy Earth. Go to cozyearth.com/jefferson and get up to 40% off. That's cozyearth.com/jefferson and use the Jefferson to get 40% off. Understand that when you're in a courtroom, the dynamics are very different. Everything is pressured.

• 1:43Jefferson Fisher?

  It's like a vacuum. You have a judge that's right in front of you, you have a bailiff, a court reporter, you have a jury, you have opposing counsel, you have the other party, you have your client, there's people in the back watching you. Everything is pressured in that moment. And when witnesses are on the stand, it's like a switch gets flipped. Like, they almost forget that there are people watching and that their words really matter, and they, and they become... Almost like they're in a corner where they don't want to say the truth without making it a fight. Like they, they just don't want to. They could give you the truth, but they don't want to because they would rather try to manipulate the system. Have you ever watched the trial on TV? Like a real trial? I'm not talking about one on the movies or

• 2:27Jefferson Fisher?

  anything. I'm talking a real trial. And you might think, yeah, they're kind of boring. Or maybe you've been on a jury and you thought, oh, this is kind of cool. In real life, the witnesses know that if they tell the truth, there is a major consequence either way. If they tell the truth, there's a consequence. If they don't tell the truth, they may or may not get out of it. Like they, they don't even, for some reason, I, it blows my mind. So many people that I've caught lying on the stand. It's, it's not even in the deposition, where you're not in the courtroom, but actually in the courtroom, it's just a lie. It's just a lie. And once they do, they think they're going to get away with it and it doesn't

• 3:07Jefferson Fisher?

  happen. It backfires. And it could only take one case, one lie that ruins an entire matter for somebody. Ruins the entire case for someone. So how do you disarm the manipulator? Here's some things I want you to keep in mind. Number one, manipulators need momentum. Disclaimer, everybody manipulates. Whether you know that you're doing it on purpose, intentionally, not intentionally, everybody has been that person. I'm not saying it's become their whole identity and you can put a label over that person as they are the manipulator. Hi, nice to meet you. Yes, there are some people like that, but for the vast

• 3:46Jefferson Fisher?

  majority, it, it is a word that indicates a change in somebody's behavior to try and get somebody to do something different, to control their perception, to control the facade in some way. And I guarantee you, because I've done it, right? I've been the manipulator. You've been the manipulator. Everybody has to some extent. And that's like saying, nobody lies. Everybody lies. All right. Manipulation is not itself.

• 4:15Jefferson Fisher?

  The root cause, it is a symptom of something much deeper. All right, all right. So box over. Number one, manipulators need momentum. The more they can get you in rhythm, the more they can find that grasp of control. Then they kind of get their claws into you. When I am deposing a witness or cross-examining, if I keep up with their momentum, meaning if I'm tracking along and we're just talking at a fast pace, I am much more likely that I'm going to miss something. Because that's what they want you to do. They want you to miss the details. But if I slow it down, everything changes. Manipulators need momentum. So what do I do?

• 4:59Jefferson Fisher?

  I slow that moment, I bring it to a halt. That's where I might say, I'd like to stop right there. I want to slow down right here. I'd like for us to walk through this, not run. Or there's, the way I say it is, I'd like for us to stop running for a second and just walk. I'm setting the tone of, oh, hold up, but on the brakes. And watch what happens. Those that are trying to manipulate do not like to slow in down. They don't like the specifics. They'd much rather stay in the abstract. Don't, don't give them, don't give them the details. They don't want that. They can't do much with that. They need the vague, they need the general, they need fast, they need momentum. So what do you need to do?

• 5:44Jefferson Fisher?

  First thing I need you to do to disarm a manipulator is to slow it down. Stop their momentum. All right. Number two, short, neutral phrases. I use short, neutral phrases in cross-examination. Meaning if I'm not having to ask a question and I'm responding to something that they said, I'm not going to give them things that they can continue to build on. When you're talking to somebody who's Showing narcissistic tendencies or manipulative tendencies. You don't want to give them tinder for the fire. Whenever you use phrases like, "Well, I guess if you want." I mean, "I guess if that's what you think."

• 6:28Jefferson Fisher?

  I mean, "Sure, I guess, whatever." If you start saying things that are passive aggressive. If you start saying things like, "Oh, mhm, okay, that's great. Good for you." Things that you know they're not going to like because you're saying it with a tone. Maybe you're being, um, trying to be cute with it, you know, smart with it. You're trying to jab them with it. Mmm, that's gonna just, you're giving tinder for a, you're just, you're throwing it into a fire. Is what you're doing. You're causing a major fire. Instead of that, pouring gasoline, short neutral phrases. Here's what I mean. You're gonna say something like, "Noted.

• 7:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Got it. Appreciate it. Good to know. Thank you." Or, you know what I also like doing? Nonverbals. That means I give it an old, "Mm. Mm-hmm. Hmm." I'm not even saying words, but yet I'm communicating. And the biggest thing that I'm doing in that moment is showing them I'm giving you nothing to grab on to. There's nothing that you can grab and run with and try and distract me. And try and push me in some way and direction that I'm not going. So, short, neutral phrases, they work and they always help.

• 7:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we keep going, I want to take a minute to tell you about Monarch. One of the conversations that I hear a lot as I come into 2026 from people around me is around finances. A lot of pressure around the holidays, right after the holidays, into the new years. It's not that they avoid the number. It's really having an actual understanding of the numbers and then making a plan. That makes sense and that's hard for a lot of people. Well, Monarch makes that much easier. Managing your money doesn't have to be a struggle this year. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings you entire financial life. Budgeting accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one single dashboard on your laptop or your phone.

• 8:38Jefferson Fisher?

  And what I like about it is it helps you kind of have a reset after everything from the holidays and the chaos and now you're trying to do budgets. It makes it just that much more simple. This new year, achieve your financial goals for good. Monarch is the all in one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use code Jefferson at monarch.com for a half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code Jefferson. And now back to the episode. And number three, I want to give you a phrase that is going to change the way you think about people trying to manipulate you. Think of a drain, a swirling drain, maybe in your bathtub or your sink.

• 9:23Jefferson Fisher?

  And as that water gets pulled in, what happens? It gets faster and faster and faster and it gets sucked in. Well, we've already discussed in rule number one, we're going to slow it down, meaning we're not going to continue to speed up and go down the vortex. Two, we're going to make sure that we use short neutral phrases that again, aren't going to speed up the vortex. The phrase I want you to remember is I'm not getting pulled into that. I'm, I'm not getting pulled into that.

• 9:56Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm going to say it again. I'm not getting pulled into that.

• 10:01Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm going to say it again for you. I'm not getting pulled into that.

• 10:07Jefferson Fisher?

  I want that to sear into your mind for a second. When I've used this mostly in depositions, I am signaling, making it very clear.

• 10:19Jefferson Fisher?

  I usually save it for a last resort. Anytime I've done it, it is necessary for me to be able to tell that person where you think I'm going, ain't happening. It's the same way of saying, I'm not going there. I'm not going there. I'm not going there with you. I'm not getting pulled into that.

• 10:44Jefferson Fisher?

  It's the reason why I like not getting pulled into this is because it creates imagery of you're trying to draw me away from what I know. You're trying to draw me away from my truths of what the facts show, what the evidence shows. The same way of saying, I'm not going there with you. If you want to go, that's fine. I'm not. I'm not getting pulled into that. Has imagery of the drain, has imagery of somebody trying to pull you with a rope. When I use that verb pull, I am highlighting, I can see what you're trying to do. You're trying to lead me astray. I'm not doing that.

• 11:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Every time I have used that, I get a reaction that is, be prepared, strong, strong, because they're mad about it. They're frustrated. And if they have a very high overreaction to that phrase, I'm not getting pulled into that. It is very indicative that what they're trying to do is not working, and that's a good sign to me. And that's a good sign to you. It should just be red alarms to you flashing and going off of, okay, I called it. The trap that they set is not working, and now they're just mad.

• 12:10Jefferson Fisher?

  They're mad that I, I set it off without stepping into it. It's a, it's a point in your life where you realize, no, I'm not going there. I'm not getting pulled into that. I'm not stepping into this. I'm not walking into that. Use words of direction. Anytime you feel like somebody's trying to control you, use words of control, use words of direction. You're walking, pushing, pulling, stepping, moving. Yeah, these are action words of somebody trying to move you off your place.

• 12:45Jefferson Fisher?

  So when I can use those words, I'm cuing that of saying, I can tell you're trying to move me, control me, push me somewhere that would serve you and not serve me. And it's going to be off the facts, off my memory, off of my truth. Do you hear the difference? Rather than getting worked up and going wherever they want to go and going off that rabbit trail and getting upset and finding that 10 minutes from now, they have me exactly where they want me talking about something else. But if I were to sit back with something that they said and I go,

• 13:22Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm not getting pulled into that.

• 13:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Do you know what that does? It is such a power move to be able to have that sense of confidence of going, I know exactly where I am and I'm not moving. When you come to a place in your life where you have to deal with a manipulator and most likely you already have. And again, understanding, acknowledging, disclaiming that yes, everybody can be the manipulator.

• 13:48Jefferson Fisher?

  I can be the manipulator. Everybody can. All right.

• 13:53Jefferson Fisher?

  When it gets to that point in life where that's going to happen, you have options.

• 13:59Jefferson Fisher?

  And when you use these options that I'm teaching you with how to disarm that type of maneuver, what I teach you works based on legal, my legal experience in the courtroom and what I've seen with countless people in some of the worst circumstances.

• 14:17Jefferson Fisher?

  When you can slow it down, stop their momentum, when you can use words that they can't make anything with, can't do anything with. And three, you indicate to them that you are not somebody that's going to be moved off your mark, off your spot, off of what you know to be you as a person, as your character, as your integrity, as your values, as what you know to be yours.

• 14:47Jefferson Fisher?

  It's a different feeling. And you're gonna have a sense of clarity that you did not know was possible. All right? Whatever it is and whatever you are about to be doing, or whatever you're going through, I'm proud of you. All right? This episode's gonna help. You can try that and follow me.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Film for IMAX.

• 15:14Speaker 00

  Make them remember you.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Leaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.