Apple announces Watch Series 6 and new iPad Air / PS5 reveals price tag / Oculus announces Quest 2

Nilay, Dieter, Chaim, and Nicole discuss Apple's newly announced products including the Apple Watch Series 6 and the new iPad Air. Also discussed: the PS5 announced pricing, Oculus has a new headset, and TikTok acquisition news continues to brew. More stories from this episode: Apple Watch’s blood oxygen monitor is for ‘wellness,’ not medicine Apple is creating a fitness subscription service called Fitness Plus The new Apple Watch Series 6 has blood oxygen monitoring The Apple Watch Series 6: first impressions of a very good smartwatch The Apple Watch SE is a new lower-cost Watch New Apple Watches won’t have a USB power adapter in the box Family Setup lets you manage multiple Apple Watches from one iPhone There’s a new iPad Air that looks a lot like an iPad Pro The updated eighth-generation iPad has a familiar design but a new processor New Apple One subscription bundles pack multiple services together Nvidia is acquiring Arm for $40 billion The PS5 will launch on November 12th for $499.99 PS5 Digital Edition launches November 12th for $399.99 Connect 7: All the news from Facebook and Oculus’ big VR / AR event Oculus Quest 2 review: better, cheaper VR Oculus’ new Quest 2 VR headset starts at $299 and ships October 13th Mark Zuckerberg on why he doesn’t want to ‘put an Apple Watch on your face’ Google to launch Pixel 5, new Chromecast, and smart speaker on September 30th Oracle reportedly wins deal for TikTok’s US operations as ‘trusted tech partner’ Trump to decide on TikTok Oracle deal with Walmart as an … We are conducting an audience survey to better serve you. It takes no more than five minutes, and it really helps out the show. Please take our survey here: voxmedia.com/podsurvey. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Nilay Patel?

  This week on The Vergecast, we talk all about the new Apple event. Nicole Wetsmann joins us to talk about blood oxygen measurement in the new Apple Watch Series 6. We get into the new iPad, the A14 chip with Heim Gartenberg. Then we talk about the PS5. Pricing has been released. We get into a little bit of the Oculus Quest 2 that's coming up on The Vergecast now.

• 0:18Speaker 01

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• 0:45Speaker 02

  Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing in wearable. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, can tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. The features described are for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. iPhone 11 or later required. Based on Apple conducted study of heart rate accuracy, August 2026. Visit apple.com slash Apple Watch Series 12.

• 1:19Nilay Patel?

  Hello and welcome to The Vergecast, the flagship podcast of blood measurement. It's like a vampire. It's like I made a blade joke, Dieter. Yeah. It wasn't good, but I'm trying to keep. The effort is what matters. I'm Neil Imsall. I'm your friend. Dieter Bohn is here. I'm your daywalker. That's good. See? Heim Gartenberg is here.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  I am not a vampire, but I have been accused of being one.

• 1:43Nilay Patel?

  Wow.

• 1:43Speaker 03

  I'm very pale. It's been a very, very inside, you know, summer.

• 1:48Nilay Patel?

  And for our opening segment, Nicole Wetsmann is here. Hey, Nicole.

• 1:50Speaker 04

  Hello.

• 1:51Nilay Patel?

  So I want to start where I always start. It's been 27 weeks since our nation's president offered a testing and tracing plan that started with a website. It was built by 65,000 Google engineers last count, I believe. 27 weeks, that's more than half a year. Still doesn't exist. That's bad. There's no getting through it without that. I know that Nicole wrote a great piece about how testing needs to work. There was a lot of noise this week about vaccination timelines. That's still the heart of it, right? He made a big promise about a gigantic plan that never revealed itself. I think you're, Nicole, I would say if you're evaluating the vaccination claims, that there's going to be a website is like a really good piece of context.

• 2:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, definitely. And you should listen to only vaccine experts to tell you about vaccine timelines, and you will probably not be able to get one this year. So don't hold your breath.

• 2:43Speaker 06

  Last I checked, a vaccine was harder to make than a website.

• 2:48Speaker 05

  It seems like it would be the case.

• 2:49Nilay Patel?

  Well, given the case with this website. Anyhow, Nicole, actually Nicole and Mary Beth and I actually spoke to a vaccine expert this week. That's on the interview show. You should have listened to it. That was great. Dr. Natalie Dean. I'm not going to race through the usual set of updates. We have a lot of tech news this week, but Nicole and the rest of our science section is doing amazing work on COVID. The rest of our teams are doing amazing work on the push for racial justice. Now that's affecting everything and the second order effects of both those huge stories. Please look at the site for that. They're very top of mind for us. There was a lot of tech news this week. So there was an Apple event. We'll save some of the the mechanics of the Apple event for a little bit later because iOS 14, A14, it's all wrapped up into that. But top line, they had an event. You heard

• 3:33Nilay Patel?

  from us, what was it, last week? They managed expectations around this event very carefully. Well, carefully after the fact. They very carefully managed their post-event announcement expectations. So there's going to be an iPad and there's going to be a watch. And indeed, there were some iPads and there were some watches. They announced the Apple One service bundle. They said all the OSs are coming tomorrow. Developers freaked out. We'll talk about those. And they said there's a new A14 in the iPad air. So let's start with the watch. That's why I wanted Nicole on to begin with. Apple Watch Series 6. Dieter, you have one.

• 4:06Speaker 06

  I do.

• 4:07Nilay Patel?

  Tell us about it and tell us, tell us about your blood.

• 4:09Speaker 06

  So I have the product red one, and it is very pretty. The red is very, I don't know, rich and complex, like a, like a fine Merlot. It's a good, it's a good looking red. And if you didn't give me the red one and you asked me to tell the difference between this and the Series 5, I would fail, just straight up. The screen is brighter and it's especially brighter, 2.5 times brighter in like the always on standby mode. And that's the only discernible difference unless you look specifically at the back to look at the sensors or you know specifically that the altimeter is always on. So it's the U1 chip, the altimeter, the blood oxygen sensor, the slightly brighter screen, and there might be one other small difference that I'm forgetting.

• 4:53Speaker 06

  The new chip inside is faster.

• 4:55Nilay Patel?

  What does it mean for an Apple Watch to be faster? It's like a very open question.

• 4:58Speaker 06

  So what's ironic about that is it's the only question when it applies to Android wear, where OS watches, they all need to be faster. But yeah, it's fine. So the really, the news here is the blood oxygen sensor. It's like the big new thing. Everything else are like nice pip year-over-year updates, but the blood oxygen sensor is really like the big deal here.

• 5:22Nilay Patel?

  So Nicole, you've done a little research into it. It's potential applications. I thought your headline was kind of just like an important statement of fact. Apple is marketing it as a wellness device, not as a medical device. They did say during, I thought this was really interesting way of kind of just like threading the needle. Like you might have heard about blood oxygen during all this COVID stuff. And then they didn't like close that loop. But Nicole, even looking into it, what do you know about it? What should people think about it?

• 5:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, so the reason that they're talking about it as a wellness device is because they cannot talk about it as a medical device without, you know, clearance from the FDA to do so. So we're sort of in this spot where pulse oximeters or blood oxygen sensors are in like a weird in-between with the FDA where like you can sort of have them on devices without getting clearance from the FDA, but if you're trying to do some things and you have to, Apple has not done that for their pulse oximeter on the watch yet. But this isn't something new to this smartwatch. Like Garmin has had a pulse ox for a while. Fitbit has like sort of quietly activated their feature, I think last year. And they've sort of been interesting to like people for working out and getting a sense

• 6:38Speaker 05

  of kind of where your blood oxygen is during exercise, but they've taken on a new role during the pandemic because monitoring blood oxygen levels is an important way to to monitor the progression of COVID-19 because people can be up and walking and talking and have very low blood oxygen levels. And you wouldn't necessarily know that just by looking at them, which is unusual. Usually like very low blood oxygen is matched with like you're gasping for breath and you can't really walk up the stairs. So that's why they've been important recently. But the way that the product is on the Apple Watch is it's not, it can't be used to actually diagnose any illness and it shouldn't be used to do so. It is more of kind of a, an interesting thing that you can look at, but we don't actually

• 7:19Speaker 05

  know like how well validated it is against sort of more standard pulse oximeters that could be used in hospitals or could be kind of more medical grade devices because they haven't gone through the FDA process. They don't have to necessarily release some of that validation information at this point.

• 7:38Speaker 06

  So the whole time you were talking, I've been trying to measure my blood oxygen on this thing and I've had three unsuccessful attempts so far. Maybe it's because the battery level is low in the Swatch app because I haven't plugged it in for 24, 36 hours or something. But yeah, it's not working. But the question I have is there are some sensors on the Apple Watch that are like, you might get lucky to get an early warning on something you didn't realize you had. It's not really a medical device, but like it can tell you if it detects like something like AFib and you're like, oh shit. And then you go to the doctor, they verify it and then your life is saved or whatever. There's other sensors that are just straight up stats for fitness nerds, right? I want to know my run steps. I want to know my, how high I ran and altitude and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 8:21Speaker 06

  Do you think that the pulse oximeter in the Apple Watch is like where in that spectrum? Is it like stats for fitness buffs? Is it just like more health information for people that want to be live the quantified self? Remember that term? People used to say quantified self all the time? Or is it like a, like an early warning system? Or is it everybody else has got one? And so Apple felt like they had to do it too. Like where do you see it on that spectrum?

• 8:44Speaker 05

  I think it probably falls closer to the like quantified self. Get some health data. It's not like the EKG feature, which does have FDA clearance and can be used sort of, they can market it as more of a medical function. But you know, I think that this is something that could follow a similar trajectory that that did, you know, like a lot of people were very skeptical of Apple's EKG when it first came out, like doctors and cardiologists. And then you saw some validation and you know, people looked at the studies and they said, okay, like maybe this can be something that's useful. And I think we might see a similar trajectory with pulse ox on wearables. Now that they're on a couple of devices and we'll probably see a little bit more attention to them. But it's sort of interesting because the way that a pulse ox works on your wrist is different than the way it works on a finger.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  And there's sort of a little bit of question as to the difference in accuracy between the way you measure things at two different places. And that is also like, there isn't a ton of research on that either. Like this is an area where there isn't a ton of validation studies. You're sort of going off a little bit of like what little research you do have. And then we're kind of waiting to see if more validation studies like end up being done.

• 9:52Nilay Patel?

  Just real quick, how does a pulse ox emitter work on a finger versus a wrist?

• 9:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, so a pulse ox works with light. So it sends out light through like a body part. And the idea is that your blood, your red blood cells absorb different wavelengths of light when they're carrying hemoglobin, which is like carrying oxygen and when they're not. So you're looking at sort of the difference between your oxygenated and non-oxygenated blood through like this sort of intermediary of absorption to figure out what your percentage blood oxygen is. And at the fingertip, that happens like by sending light through the tip of your finger and then reading it on the other side. Whereas on a wrist, it's reflective.

• 10:36Speaker 05

  So it's bouncing the light back up to itself. And so it's like reflective versus transmitted light. And that's sort of part of the question with like accuracy there. You also have different amounts of blood close to the surface of the skin in your finger versus the top of your wrist. So like some of the issues could come with where it's positioned and if it's not actually like On your, the artery, your, I think it's the radial artery.

• 11:00Nilay Patel?

  I'm watching Dieter. He's still trying to do it.

• 11:02Speaker 06

  I, I got, I got two out of like the six I've been doing here. They take 15 seconds apiece. One said 96, which is like, a little low, but okay. One just said 90, which is like, I, I think I would feel that. Uh, so that can't be right. And most of them are unsuccessful. So I, I, I need to figure out how to get this thing to like, be placed to be accurate. So there's a lot of, I'm actually concerned about this thing here. I've got like a consumer grade finger, um, oximeter. So I'm going to like be doing them like next to each other all weekend. So expect me to be terrified on Monday.

• 11:34Speaker 06

  So the light thing, um, it has more like little light things on the back than a, uh, Apple Watch up until now. And it uses red light, I think for the pulse oximeter. And it also does it during the day and during the night, just sort of ambiently. So you can see what it was throughout the course of the day and not just sit there and test it and freak yourself out. Interestingly, uh, by default, the checking throughout the day turns off when you're in theater mode, which turns the screen off because like you can see it in the dark. You could just see your wrist like turn red when this thing is shining on it.

• 12:09Nilay Patel?

  That's wild. The EKG point you brought up was really interesting to me because we wrote those stories, right? They put out an EKG, doctors are skeptical. We want to see it proven out. They did manage to prove it out. They did get their clear, like, they went through the process. It, one of the things about Apple entering health, and I think about Tim Cook saying, Apple's big legacy in the world industry will be in health. That's the CEO of Apple. That's the thing he says about his company. They always were the tech company entering the heavily regulated health devices space with this watch. And it seems like they've kind of inverted the, the flow, right? Usually you would get that clearance and you put out the first generation and you would fix it.

• 12:49Nilay Patel?

  They're starting with, here's some stuff you can measure. We don't know what it means. We've signed up 45. World-class hospitals to do some tests with it. And they just like sort of build their data, they build their credibility, and then they go and get their validation and say, now it's medical. That seems like the reverse of how it normally is. It also seems like a very clever strategy because they have the scale to pull it off.

• 13:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's sort of interesting because they can, you know, the way that medical device regulations work, it's this like very weird space, right, like in terms of regulations. So they're able to put this sensor on the watches and then sort of like go from there and test it. And like then they can, you know, partnering with sort of the universities to try this out over time. Like hopefully will mean that we'll see. It'd be, it'd be interesting because we might then see data before it gets submitted for clearance for whatever kind of function they're aiming for, which I think will be interesting to see as well. You know, they're partnering with a university to look at asthma,

• 13:53Speaker 05

  which I thought was interesting because a lot of the other wearables are focusing their pulse ox research on sleep apnea. So that sort of, I think, is a potential indication of a way that they could go in maybe a slightly different direction, although I would assume that they're also going to be pursuing the sleep stuff as well. So I'll be curious to see how that shakes out.

• 14:14Nilay Patel?

  I mean, they bought that sleep tracking company and then nothing else has ever happened, right?

• 14:17Speaker 06

  Like, do they still, it was a sleep track company that like put the, like the thing under your mattress, right?

• 14:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, Betit.

• 14:23Speaker 06

  Do they, does Betit still exist? They still sell that thing?

• 14:26Nilay Patel?

  Yes.

• 14:26Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 14:27Nilay Patel?

  You can still buy one. That's like one of the few products that Apple just hasn't like memory hold after acquisition. But like they don't, no one competes with their weird sleep tracker. Nicole, when you, when you look at sort of the, the suite of sensors on the watch and the places where Apple is pushing and that kind of studies, do you see a holistic picture of what it's all supposed to do? Or is it different bites that things are capable of doing?

• 14:51Speaker 05

  Well, I think it sort of fits under the bigger umbrella of the idea of being able to monitor your own health at home. Um, and that sort of general trajectory that a lot of The health landscape seems to be moving towards and there's like that sort of conversation's been accelerated because of all of the telemedicine during the pandemic. And I think getting in on a couple of key areas that are things that are pain points for physicians to regularly monitor is kind of an interesting like entry into that conversation because you know, it's hard to get regular heart rate measures on people if you have to hook them up to an EKG and you can only do that at like X amount of times during

• 15:36Speaker 05

  the day and it's kind of like cumbersome and maybe challenging to get people to comply. But if you have it built into a wearable that you're wearing all the time, you can get a more regular reading on something like that, which is useful to a clinician who otherwise could be working with far less information. So that I think is the, the space that like you can see some initial benefits, but I think that that's sort of the direction a lot of this is moving in. And it's, you know, challenging a lot of clinicians with how they think about their relationship with patient data and where the data they get on patients is coming from. I think a lot of clinicians are like excited about this and the possibility to be able to, you know, reach people and get information that they wouldn't get otherwise, but they're

• 16:20Speaker 05

  still, you know, waiting to see if the possibility is borne out.

• 16:25Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, and I think because it's Apple, I think there's a presumption that all the data will be clean, like the product works well, but I think that's still, we still don't know, right? The thing is still pretty new and I think a lot of skepticism I hear is we don't know if you're wearing your watch tightly enough, right? We, we don't know if your, your kid or your dog ran away with it and you like show more movement than like, there's just like a, when you have to do the formal compliance and like actually sit down and take the reading at home, like you're trying to, you're trying to get a good result. Yeah. Whereas these, all these ambient measurements, I think, and I know Apple's thinking about it, but I think that's just like a really interesting piece of this puzzle.

• 17:01Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then there's a, when you look at research studies, a self-report is always considered to be slightly less reliable than something that's collected by a researcher and things like that. I also just wanted to say that, you know, the other thing when a company like Apple enters the medical landscape is that their information is proprietary. So their algorithms and all of that stuff is not accessible to just your average, everyday doctor. So doctors also have to trust the black box that is the product without knowing where anything, any of the information it's spitting out comes from. And that is a really hard sell, I think, for a lot of clinicians. And I think if this is going to move towards, like, continue to move forward, I think it's going to be interesting to see the amount

• 17:43Speaker 05

  of transparency that that actually comes up around some of those questions.

• 17:47Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Two more beats of health news from the Apple event I want to talk to you about specifically. One, they launched their new fitness service called Fitness Plus. It is like an all encompassing Apple ecosystem, Death Star, right? You like, put your iPad and you link it with your watch and iCloud streams a video and there's real time data.

• 18:05Speaker 06

  Fundamentally, a Fitness Plus is DVDs of exercise videos that you can put your Apple Watch data on top of. That's, that's all it really is.

• 18:15Nilay Patel?

  Well, I was saying it in a more exciting way. It's what I was doing. But yes, it's video on demand. Nothing's live. But, you know, like the, the streaming, the linking, all that stuff is, is neat. Do you see that when, in the context of our greatest contribution to the world will be health? Do you see that as meaningfully moving the company forward? Are they just like, whatever, we're going to make Peloton stuff?

• 18:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, I think that exercise is a big part of health and that's something that, you know, people care a lot about. But if it's collecting like the information on your, like how much you're working out in the same place that it's collecting your heart rate data and your blood oxygen and that's something that your doctor like wants to see how much exercise you're doing, like, sure, that could be a convenient way to sort of like get evidence to your doctor that you're working out X amount. And if you have questions about like any of that stuff. But I also think that fitness is like a huge industry. And I mean, if they're trying to take over the world, having a fitness product that you can do at home during a pandemic is probably a good thing, I would say. For the products.

• 19:22Nilay Patel?

  On the product side, I think it, I think it was honestly, yes, it's kind of like just DVDs with Apple Watch data over the top of it. But what, what was their newest, most interesting idea? It was this fitness service, right? Like, everything else was sort of iterative, in many cases, extremely iterative over the old one. This was a new thing. But I guess what I'm pushing at is, has Apple's health thesis come into focus for you, for you as our health reporter, for anybody just listening? Like, I think about Tim Cook saying, our greatest contribution will be in health. And then it's just bits and bobs, right? And I couldn't quite link them all together.

• 19:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I think it gets at sort of the idea of like, the holistic picture of, of healthcare in terms of, you know, we need to look at all elements of your life in order to be understanding kind of how healthy you are as a person and kind of what you need to be doing. And also, on, you know, the early intervention prevention side of things as well, if we think about exercise in that sort of context, the, you know, the EKG feature is the whole kind of selling point is that this is something that you can use in the background that will give you an early hint that something could be wrong. And so if we're thinking about, you know, preventing illness rather than treating illness, I would think it kind of could fit under, under that umbrella. And it also, you know, fits under this general conception of wellness

• 20:40Speaker 05

  that everyone is very interested in, which, you know, could have a lot of different meanings to a lot of different people. But if you're packaging medicine as wellness with sort of the connotations that comes with in terms of like, investment and money and status and all of these different, like more cultural ideas, fitness definitely fits, fits under that umbrella for sure.

• 21:04Nilay Patel?

  All right. Last little thing, they put out iOS 14, it came out today, exposure notification now built into the operating system. You can just turn it on in settings. I encourage everyone to go turn it on. I went to turn it on. And said, where do you live? I said, New York State and said, New York already has an app. Go get that app. That app doesn't exist yet.

• 21:21Speaker 06

  Woof.

• 21:22Nilay Patel?

  So Apple's like leaking some Cuomo app that doesn't exist or they're a little shaky. But so that's rolling out, obviously testing, tracing, we start to show with it every week for a reason. Have you seen any, there's like seven states that have it now, the app. Have you seen any results from it? Have you seen, has that built to any conclusion?

• 21:43Speaker 05

  I think it's that they've only really been out for like a couple of months, two months, month and a half. So I haven't seen any kind of data from any of the states yet. I mean, it's not something I've actively looked for recently, but it's not something that I've, I've seen a whole lot of results from yet.

• 22:03Nilay Patel?

  A thing that really struck me when I was installing, yeah, app to the software and your phone lights up again. It's like typing your password again and you're just like back and then you, where's the, where's the at launch? You've installed iOS 14, turn on your exposure tracking, like it should be there. But it's not, it's just like, it's crazy. They built all of this. They made all this noise with partnership with Google. It's unprecedented. They roll it out in the operating system and they didn't say a word about it. And that to me is like nuts.

• 22:31Speaker 05

  I mean, do they not want to freak people out because people are easily freaked out by stuff like that?

• 22:36Speaker 06

  I think it's a regional problem. So I just checked mine and I tried to turn it on and I'm in California. And it said your area has not, not on for your area. So I've got the thing that checkbox to like, give me notification when it's available. But I can't just turn on the exposure notifications directly yet.

• 22:51Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. And that to me is, it was an announcement made with some fanfare, right? Like two big companies collaborate, they don't like each other. And that it's, it just seems to have, they're obviously working on it. We get regular updates. It's in the operating systems now and it as yet has seems to have come to nothing. So I was very curious to ask you, Nicole, for your perspective on that.

• 23:11Speaker 05

  Well, I think it's interesting that the announcements are coming from the states and from the state health departments rather than from the tech companies. I think that sort of is probably a good public health strategy. But, you know, if it's sort of a more generalized feature, I mean, like, the the strategy of that, I think, is sort of interesting and could be explained in a lot of different ways. But, like, the announcements have been coming out locally when there's a new app in a different area.

• 23:36Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, that was the thing that got me. I was like, there's an app for New York and I haven't heard of it. That seems crazy. But it turns out, Tim Cook has just spoken at Cuomo. That's that's my theory. Okay.

• 23:44Speaker 06

  Oh, hey, one more thing. Every review I've been doing lately, I've got the Withings HR Steel whatever smartwatch, which is the old version. They've got a new version coming out called the Scan Watch, I think. It's out in the year. It's out in the UK and Europe, but it's not here in the US. Nicole, you have one. Can you just like, real quick, like, what is what is it? And do you like it? Because everyone's asking me and my answer is, I don't know.

• 24:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, so it's not out in the US yet because it is waiting for FDA clearance because it is doing the thing that Apple is not doing, which is linking its Pulseox to a medical feature, which is sleep apnea.

• 24:18Speaker 06

  Right.

• 24:18Speaker 05

  So they're sort of have jumped into that, you know, pool of things. So it's still waiting FDA clearance. Like, who knows when that's going to happen? Who knows when you're able to get your hands on it? I have been wearing it. I like it. I like that it just looks like a watch and does not look like a computer and that it doesn't give me any notifications at all if I don't want it to, which is great for me, a person who doesn't like smartwatches. But it also has a Pulseox feature. And like you, I have been testing it out and it has been giving me a lot of inconclusives and telling me that I am dying a lot of the time.

• 24:52Speaker 06

  Great.

• 24:52Speaker 05

  With like, like 89% Pulseox. And I have a fingertip thing, too. And I've been comparing them as well. So I think I have the same feedback on that that I do with the Apple Watch, which is that if and when it gets cleared by the FDA here, it still probably serves a similar functionality. But I do really like it. It's great. It looks really nice. It's not too big and pretty kind of simple and straightforward. So.

• 25:19Speaker 06

  They're good. I like them. I like the Withings watches. Okay, cool.

• 25:22Nilay Patel?

  Great. Well, thank you so much, Nicole. We're gonna have to have you back soon.

• 25:25Speaker 05

  Thanks for having me.

• 25:26Nilay Patel?

  We're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna come back. Heim is gonna walk us through all of the rest of the things that Apple announced, which was quite a bit. We'll be right back.

• 25:37Speaker 01

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• 26:58Nilay Patel?

  We're back. I'm Gartenberg. Hello. Tell me everything. No, let's start. There's a little bit more Apple Watch stuff. Dieter, you want to run through the SE? It's basically SE and the family stuff, right?

• 27:09Speaker 06

  Yeah. So in addition to the Series 6, they also released the SE, which is, it's like, they've got the Series 3 around as a cheap one. And then there's the SE, which is like a Series 4, Series 5. They took out the EKG, but they put in the always on, no, they also took out the always on screen. It's like the lower cost version that isn't the low, low cost version. It's like in the middle. And I kind of don't get why it exists, except I totally get why it exists, because Apple needs to have one in the middle, a good, better, best. And that's, that's where they want this thing to land. And The thing that I think is most interesting about the Apple Watch is called family setup. So if you have a kid or a, I don't know, elderly parent,

• 27:55Speaker 06

  you can set up an Apple Watch for them on your iPhone. And then you manage it as though, you know, it's somebody, it's somebody else's device. They don't even have an iPhone, but you get to like see where they are on GPS. There's lots of limitations on what the kid is allowed to do. So they, they don't get to track their calories. They track their movement, which is the right call. They turn off a bunch of other stuff like the ECG probably wouldn't be accurate for a kid. So they can't do that. I think they also turn off like low heart rate notifications and, you know, a bunch of other stuff is off. But it basically takes that like kid tracker, kid watch tracker market. Just like, just hits it with a big hammer, a big apple sized hammer. It's expensive. You're going to have to pay for carrier.

• 28:40Speaker 06

  You have to get the GPS or I'm sorry, the LTE version in order to use this feature. So there's a lot of things that like put it into a much higher price tier. But I'm just saying, when kids go back to school and like one kid has got like the, I don't know, whatever they're called, Archangel or whatever, like the, the cheapo GPS watch. And one kid has the Apple Watch, like that kid with the cheapo tracker watch is going home and having a conversation with their parents.

• 29:03Nilay Patel?

  There's a reason, oh, we don't go anywhere anymore. But before, in the before time, when I would like go to work and the nanny would like take Max places. Or like, I was always in the hunt for a stroller tracker. And I could never find, like, just because Max is, she's a baby. Wasn't going to blame it on her. But like, I always wanted like a GPS tagger for the, like, I was like, I'll put it on the stroller. And I could never find one that like made sense, that didn't cost a million dollars, that wasn't like a Sprint exclusive.

• 29:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 29:36Nilay Patel?

  And now I'm like, I should just buy an Apple Watch. And I'll just like tie it to whatever I want to track and it'll be like a real computer for a Revit will brand. I know the cell modem will work.

• 29:47Speaker 06

  But you have to charge every two days.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  Get alerts that your stroller is dying of low blood oxygen.

• 29:53Nilay Patel?

  Sounds like freaking out. But it's just like that market, you know, if you don't have a kid, like you don't know that the carriers are constantly bombarding you with kid tracker stuff.

• 30:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:03Nilay Patel?

  And like Apple really did just blow up that market. I think the SE is really like, Apple is no longer able to just sell the old one for cheaper.

• 30:10Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 30:11Nilay Patel?

  They have to make them look new. They have to say they are new products. They have to market them as new products. I think they want to make more ads, right? Like fundamentally, they just want to be in your face more. And they could not be like, the Apple Watch Series four again.

• 30:26Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:27Nilay Patel?

  And like confuse you against the Series six, which is they're going to market in a different way.

• 30:31Speaker 03

  I mean, the SE just doesn't make sense to me on a lot of levels. Like, I don't understand why it has an S5 processor at all. Because the S5 processor is the exact same thing as the S4 processor. The only difference is it has, I believe, slightly more system memory for like, storage of apps. And the display controller that allows you to have the in, the always on display. So Apple like went out of its way to get this more expensive chipset that is identical to their old chipset on the Series four, which this effectively is, and then disabled it.

• 31:07Speaker 06

  I had questions. So I was, I wrote this thing where I was like, the SE doesn't, the idea of SE doesn't make sense because on the iPhone line, the SE is a low end. And on the Apple Watch line, the SE is the one in the middle. So what's, what's the deal? And so then, you know, this whole thing that like, Apple needs to have a good upsell from good, better to best. And so they're, they're trying to make their middle upsell slightly nicer. So that's why those, that's why those cadences exist. But then I realized what SE means is, oh shit, we have a lot of extra chips. And we don't want to keep making the old ones. We want to stop making the old ones.

• 31:38Nilay Patel?

  It should be SP.

• 31:39Speaker 06

  Spare parts.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  It should just be like overstock of processors.

• 31:43Nilay Patel?

  And the iPhone OS.

• 31:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 31:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I think that we should start calling in the spare parts. So that's SE. Honestly, that's the most interesting thing about it is it basically a series four. Yeah. But at a much lower price. There's no power adapter in the box, except for the most expensive ones. Ridiculous. Which is the dumbest.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  I am so mad about this.

• 32:04Nilay Patel?

  The person who has the most USB power adapters in the world is the person who buys the Apple Watch Edition.

• 32:10Speaker 03

  I mean, the person buying an Apple Watch Edition doesn't know what a USB power adapter is because I assume that they do not handle the charging of their own devices. They just like, put it down on a table somewhere and someone else just like puts it back in the morning recharged.

• 32:25Nilay Patel?

  This is my new thing. On the, on the new interview show, when we get billionaires, I'm gonna ask them about USB C. Be like, what is your favorite USB standard? Because I guarantee you they're all frustrated by it. Anyway, so no power adapters in the box. I think that is a clear sign that the iPhone don't have it. They made a big show about how that's for environmental reasons. Lisa Jackson, who's their executive in charge of environmental initiatives. But they didn't lower the price when they took it out of the box, did they? You gotta get those points somewhere, man. You gotta keep the street happy.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  Also, if Apple was really concerned about environmental things, it's possible they could have used the universal charging standards used by every other manufacturer instead of insisting on producing its own cables. Hypothetically.

• 33:04Nilay Patel?

  The Apple Watch still doesn't support Qi charging.

• 33:06Speaker 03

  Does not support Qi charging. The Apple Watch doesn't support Qi charging. The new iPad that they announced, one of them still has a Lightning port, like.

• 33:14Nilay Patel?

  Okay, so let's, let's do it. Let's get out of the watches. I tried to go fast, but it's like everything. There's, there's too much. New iPads. There's a new iPad Air with USB C, which last week we were like, this is gonna be nuts. It's basically an iPad Pro. Let's set that one aside for one second. Cause I want some A14 to, let's start with the Lightning iPad. There's a new eighth generation iPad. That is a processor bump. That's it.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  It's a spare parts iPad.

• 33:40Speaker 06

  That's it.

• 33:41Nilay Patel?

  And it still has lightning. And I think I understand why it still has lightning.

• 33:44Speaker 06

  Why do you think it still has lightning?

• 33:45Nilay Patel?

  Because it's, it's the one that you give to your kid. It's the, it's the Chromebook competitor. Like it's there to meet the ecosystem as it is. It is not the product that pushes anything forward.

• 33:57Speaker 03

  Chromebooks use USB C too. Every Android phones use USB C like.

• 34:02Speaker 06

  I think it has lightning because it would have cost too much to redesign it for USB C. And they're just waiting until they can take the air, the Pro and Air thing all the way down to the low end. Like the reason that thing is cheap is because they literally don't have to change anything about the factory that makes it. Except like have the person that puts in the chip, like put it in a different chip.

• 34:23Nilay Patel?

  Dumps in a different barrel of chips.

• 34:25Speaker 06

  Yeah. So like the reason it doesn't have USB C is because they didn't redesign it.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  But they redesigned it last year. They redesigned it last year.

• 34:34Speaker 06

  A little.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  You have to put it, no, you have to put a new display and that's a different sized screen.

• 34:39Speaker 06

  I'm not mad. I mean, I'm mad about lightning. Do not get me wrong. I'm mad about lightning. I'm also mad that there's a different smart connector standard for the different iPad lines. And I'm also annoyed that there's a different Apple pencil standard for both the iPad lines now. And so knowing what keyboard to get or what pencil to get requires like double checking and that's annoying.

• 35:00Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I just, I don't know. Again, I think this is just like me, like my kid centric view of the world now. We have last year's $329 iPad. It's in a gigantic hot pink foam case.

• 35:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:13Nilay Patel?

  Cannot be destroyed. And I'm like, I don't care what ports this has. Also, any charger in my family's, in any of our family's houses is guaranteed to charge it.

• 35:22Speaker 06

  Right.

• 35:23Nilay Patel?

  Right. It's because it is fundamentally, that thing runs Disney plus and YouTube kids.

• 35:27Speaker 06

  So you think it has lightning because the iPhone has lightning?

• 35:30Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I think it, when I say it meets the ecosystem where it is.

• 35:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:34Nilay Patel?

  It's a product that demands virtually nothing from you if you have a bunch of Apple stuff.

• 35:38Speaker 06

  There is one ecosystem that it's not meeting and that's education. They did like, they didn't do anything to improve its standing in education. It's like iOS 14 doesn't really help with management or multi-user in a serious way. You can do it for education, but it's meh.

• 35:51Nilay Patel?

  When they did family sharing on the phone and he didn't do any, I was like, come on.

• 35:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:55Nilay Patel?

  You, this is the first time Apple has ever admitted that families exist.

• 36:00Nilay Patel?

  Ever.

• 36:02Nilay Patel?

  And they did it on the watches?

• 36:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, man.

• 36:05Nilay Patel?

  Every time I try to, we had to turn off airdrop on Max's iPad because she kept on getting whatever it's airdropping Becky.

• 36:12Speaker 06

  Oh, no.

• 36:14Nilay Patel?

  And she would just go, uh-oh, and we couldn't figure out what was wrong.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  They're getting closer. The Apple TV has vague family stuff now.

• 36:24Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. At the going rate, in like two or three years, you'll be able.

• 36:28Nilay Patel?

  Not for now.

• 36:29Speaker 06

  Anyway, the other, the other thing about education is they all have Chromebooks and so they always use USB C to charge those Chromebooks. And so like they have to get a whole other charging thing if they want to get iPads into the school. So like, yeah, anyway, that's it. That's my rant.

• 36:41Nilay Patel?

  All right. iPad Air. There's more to rant about with the Air.

• 36:43Speaker 06

  Oh, yes.

• 36:44Nilay Patel?

  Air. Maybe this is, they should call the iPad SE. If you're going with their new names.

• 36:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:49Nilay Patel?

  What do they do? And they said this, and I'll say this, they said this line, which I thought was new. The point of the iPad Air is to bring Pro features to a more accessible price point. And I was like, that's new. And then I was, I was told very sharply, no, we said that last year too. You just didn't believe us, which is hilarious because last year they didn't have all the Pro features. But this year it looks the same as the Pro, has now a faster, well.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 37:14Nilay Patel?

  We'll get it. That's why I want Hime to be talking about it. Has an A14, which is a different chip than the Pro. The current Pro has the A12Z, slightly different screen. It gets less bright stereo speakers instead of quad speakers. No Pro motion, no 120 Hz Pro motion, no LiDAR sensor. That is a list of things I think most people do not care about. And so the Air is like really emerged. It got more expensive. It's a hundred dollars more expensive. It comes in this range of colors, can use all the same keyboards and stuff. That it's more expensive, I think, is a ding, but it is now, it's the most compelling iPad. Oh, and USB C. And that to me feels like they've made, they've made the concession that USB C is what the iPad needs because the iPad is computer. Right? It's a weird spot for the iPad line, but the Airs, I think, emerged as the one to get.

• 37:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's it's a tough argument.

• 38:01Speaker 06

  Did the 2019 iPad Air have a headphone jack? I can't even remember. It did.

• 38:05Nilay Patel?

  It did, because it was the old design.

• 38:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, so that's something.

• 38:08Nilay Patel?

  So, Heim, talk to us, talk to me about A14. It seems they went to 5 nanometer ahead of everybody else.

• 38:14Speaker 03

  Yep. So, I mean, yeah, it's it's next generation chip. They're saying, you know, 40% more transistors, twice as fast for graphics. A lot of it is is just, you know, this is a new processor. But this is particularly important for two reasons. One, all the iPhones are going to have it. Two, I don't know if you can make a direct comparison between this and the A12Z, just because they're fundamentally different chips. This is a six-core CPU, four-core GPU. The A12Z is still eight-core GPU. Like, it supports more RAM than like the regular A12. I have to like dig up and see how this compares. At tasks, it's it's going to be hard to compare, just because they're fundamentally different chips.

• 38:57Speaker 03

  But what this does say is a couple of things that are interesting, which are, first of all, A, Apple and by extension TSMC are able to make 5 nanometer chips, which is, you know, good for everyone who makes 5 nanometer chips, except for Intel.

• 39:14Speaker 03

  And the other thing is that Apple really was emphasizing, you know, they have redesigned, you know, GPU and twice as faster, big boost in performance, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that's very interesting for the iPad. I mean, just because, you know, they bumped the processor. It's going from, you know, the A12 to the A14, big generational jump, because they also kind of took last year off when it came to actually making, like, there was no A13X processor. The only difference between the A12X and the A12Z was Apple unlocked another GPU core that was already on. So they went from seven to eight. It was a pretty incremental upgrade.

• 39:50Speaker 06

  Yeah. Do we need to get into that drama where people like to get, we have to talk about binning and like not all eight of those cores in the old? Okay, good.

• 39:57Nilay Patel?

  I refuse.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  The other interesting thing for the A14 though is this is Apple's first, you know, processor from its new generation of stuff. And the processors that Apple is making and the things that it's focusing on, on the processors that it's making is a lot more important right now. With Apple about to release, you know, computers that are going to be using, if not this processor, a processor built on this.

• 40:23Speaker 06

  Heim, are you saying the iPad isn't a computer?

• 40:24Nilay Patel?

  Oh my God. Poor Heim.

• 40:29Speaker 03

  I walked right into that one. Like there, there will presumably be an A14X of some sort that is going to use this new GPU engine, this new CPU. And the fact that Apple is, is, you know, at this new generational point, I mean, they are at a new, you know, node. They can, their more power efficiency with less battery consumption are effectively the same, the, the things that they straight up said on stage. These are what we wanted from Intel and Intel wasn't doing, and it was the same things. These are what we wanted from Power PC. So we're going to Intel. So this is sort of a preview, like they went, I don't think it's a coincidence that Apple's like, you know, this is two to three times faster than, than the most popular Windows laptop.

• 41:09Speaker 03

  The three times faster than the Android tablet and the Chromebook and like, this is very much setting, setting the stage for that.

• 41:16Nilay Patel?

  The thing that jumped out at me about that, they ran all those stats, right? It's faster than the most popular Windows laptop. It's faster than this on Chromebook. It's faster than a game console. And they didn't name them.

• 41:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:25Nilay Patel?

  Which is kind of them.

• 41:26Speaker 06

  They did eventually show an HP laptop.

• 41:28Nilay Patel?

  Oh man, like the guy at the HP office was like, oh, it was, it was us.

• 41:35Speaker 03

  On the one hand, it must be nice to be the most popular Windows laptop.

• 41:41Nilay Patel?

  It was just like the subtlest shot. I feel like we could talk about the ARM-based Mac. The chip in the ARM-based Mac is right now the A12Z. I would presume that whatever ARM-based Mac comes out at 5 nanometers on the new node, they've built the thing out. I also expect them to rename it, to not do an A series. Right? Because they keep calling it Apple silicon. Like, I think they want to get bigger. They need to support more kinds of features on a Mac. Let's talk about the iPad itself, though, for a second. Here you've got, uh, the headroom on an iPad is always really interesting to me because it doesn't really matter how powerful my iPad has been ever, right? Like, I never push it. Those workflows, as much as Apple wants them to exist and insists

• 42:25Nilay Patel?

  that they exist and will hire influencers to show me they exist, they still don't exist at scale. And so the point, even in the iPhone, the point of having the fastest iPhone is that it will last a much longer time. Do you think this chip in the iPad compared to the A12Z or whatever, has that similar kind of headroom potential? Or is it, this is just, we had to put it out because iPhones come out?

• 42:50Speaker 03

  Uh, I mean, I think, I think it's, it's very much that. I mean, first of all, I don't think Apple was going to put the, uh, an X or a Z class chip in, in this iPad. The iPad Air is, is the middle option. And, you know, best, best, better, best, um, or good, better, best. Uh, it needs this to be the better one. So like, it could have made this. There's a world where this event is just, this is the new 11-inch iPad Pro where, you know, putting a fingerprint sensor on it and we're calling it a day and we're dropping the price. That's a world that exists. Uh, I don't think it's a likely one because Apple wants this mid-level step.

• 43:25Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Speaker 03

  And as such, it wants that mid-level step to last. Uh, I mean, Apple's, you know, longevity of product is always sort of one of the big advantages it has. Like, this iPad's going to get updates for what? Four, five years? Probably longer?

• 43:40Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Well, you, you mentioned Touch ID, by the way. We didn't talk about that at all. It does not have Face ID. As the fingerprint sensor at Apple says is quite fast and I desperately hope that comes to all their products.

• 43:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:51Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  Put it on the iPhone, please.

• 43:53Nilay Patel?

  Well, I mean, we'll see how small they can make it for an iPhone, right? That's a, that's a tough thing to make that small.

• 43:58Speaker 03

  Power button on the iPhone is pretty big.

• 44:00Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, okay, that's fair. Also-

• 44:03Speaker 06

  Thank you for calling it the power button. No one, everyone else calls it the sleep-wake button now, or the side button, or the top button. It's the power button. We all know it. You remap it to Siri, or Bixby, or whatever the F, but it's the power button, and we know it in our hearts. The last thing I want to talk about with the iPad is, unless you have more to say about Touch ID.

• 44:21Nilay Patel?

  No.

• 44:21Speaker 06

  No.

• 44:22Nilay Patel?

  I could talk about where the webcam is, but.

• 44:24Speaker 06

  Oh, God, what are they doing?

• 44:28Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, a bunch of kids in Zoom school looking sideways and up at their noses. That's why you should buy a Chromebook, because a webcam respects you as a person.

• 44:36Speaker 06

  Yes, agree. 100% agree. Did you notice that they made a specific, special point to say that more than half of all new iPad buyers, 53 or 54% or something, are first-time iPad buyers? They really, really still want to make the case that like, this thing is encroaching on the PC market. It's faster than a Windows laptop. It's faster than a Chromebook. And so, that tension between like, the iPad is running into the Mac, is still there. And the iPad team still thinks that they can like, grab PC market share. And I just, like, sure, I believe you probably can. I just wish you'd do more with it once you had it.

• 45:17Nilay Patel?

  You know, I haven't, I haven't done any betas of iPadOS 14. I feel like I want to come back to that after, because they've, they've, they've pushed it a little bit farther again.

• 45:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, but the iPadOS beta, like, the headline feature there is the Scribble stuff, where you can use the pencil to jot in any text field anywhere, or anywhere on the screen. It's good for like, four words, then it falls apart. But it's great for those four words, to just be able to like, write your search in the search field, or whatever. Beyond that, like, it's, it's not as big a deal on the iPad as it is on the iPhone, in terms of like, overall UI and overall changes.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  Scribble is not turning this into a Chromebook.

• 45:56Nilay Patel?

  Well, we got to review these things. We will argue about the iPad being a computer at that time. Last thing I want to talk about in this section, before we take a break, Apple One is out. Heim, you actually wrote the breakdown of all the bundles. Walk us through it.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  So, Apple One.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  First of all, first of all, there are three of them, which I think is an immediate failure of of naming or branding or something. That that should have been a red flag somewhere. Apple One is Apple's subscription bundles. And the sell is is that you get Apple One, and you will get all of the Apple stuff for less. It sounds, there's three plans. There's an individual one, which is a lie. But it's $15 a month. It's not an individual plan. Let me. So the individual plan gets you an individual Apple Music, an iCloud storage for 50 gigabytes, which are individual. But it also gets you Apple TV Plus and Apple Arcade, which go to everyone in your family group. So it is technically individual, but half of the stuff is a family plan.

• 46:58Nilay Patel?

  Oh, it's it's it's Apple Music and plus some stuff. That's the individual plan is Apple Music for you plus some stuff.

• 47:04Speaker 03

  So it's Apple Music for you and iCloud for you, plus some stuff for $4 more than those would cost on your own. The the theme here is that you want iCloud and Apple Music. Like, this is what the numbers, Apple doesn't give great numbers on this, but like, the numbers that exist, there's like 160 plus million paid iCloud subscribers. There's like 68 million Apple Music subscribers. And then there's like 10 million Apple Arcade and Apple TV Plus. And a lot of the Apple TV Plus people are on their year long free thing.

• 47:36Nilay Patel?

  We got to, I want to come back to this you want thing, but let's get through the rest of the plans.

• 47:40Speaker 03

  Okay, so like numerically, there are people who are playing for Apple Music, and there are people paying for iCloud, and Apple would like those people to also be paying for TV Plus and Arcade. So the goal is to upsell you. The family one is the same thing. It's the family shareable iCloud, which is 200 gigabytes, and family Apple Music. So it's, again, it's 15 for the Apple Music, three for that. And then there's a $2 price difference. And if you pay the extra $2, you get Arcade and TV Plus. So you're paying $4 on the individual plan for the TV Plus and Arcade, $2 on the main plan for TV Plus and Arcade. And then if you had the terabyte one, assuming you are already paying for Apple Music family and the terabyte, you're paying $5 or more, $5 more, but that gets you TV

• 48:23Speaker 03

  Plus, Arcade, Fitness, and News Plus.

• 48:27Nilay Patel?

  And there's a, the one concession I will give them to having multiple plans is Fitness is only in English, and they don't have licenses for News Plus around the world. So they can't offer those plans globally. So they needed some initial setup, which, fine. But as you just walk up those tiers, it really feels like the next one is like Apple One Premier Unlimited 5G. Like, it's that level of complication.

• 48:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:54Nilay Patel?

  Honestly reminds me of cell carrier plans.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  I mean, I've been getting like tweets from people all day of like, you know, I would really have liked to get, you know, just iCloud one terabyte and fitness for like $15 a month. But Apple, let me like.

• 49:08Speaker 06

  You could do that for $20 a month, right? Because you can't, you, in my, like, what I would like is to be able to mix and match. I mean, this is more complicated and we're already complaining that it's complicated. So hypocrite. But like you said, what you want is Apple Music and iCloud. I don't want Apple Music. I want Spotify. And so Spotify, Spotify said a very strange statement that they're very angry about this bundle.

• 49:30Nilay Patel?

  Let me read this statement. It's so good.

• 49:31Speaker 06

  Let me, let me just finish the thought. But what I do want is more iCloud, not so much that I want it, but that I have to do it because it's the only way to like reliably back up my iPhone and I just need more than 200. So like I back into, well, I'm going to be buying two terabytes of iCloud anyway. So that's 10 bucks a month. Well, okay. Well, what else in that package do I want? Well, I don't know, maybe something, something, but like it, the, the calculation of figuring out which of Apple services you actually want and then building your own bundle versus just buying theirs. You spend like 15 minutes like going, okay, if I did this, well, maybe I want that. I don't know, blah, blah, blah. And then like, uh, and then you're paying them $360 a year for the premier 5G Max Plus plan because it's just like easier to do it.

• 50:16Speaker 06

  And that, that is the number that you should do. You should do the times 12 number for all of these plans. It's like, it's a better way for your human brain, which is dumb and stupid to think about the value you're getting for your money. It's $360, which is the cost of an iPad. Okay, let's hear Spotify's ridiculous statement.

• 50:33Nilay Patel?

  I'm going to read it, but I would encourage the listener as you listen to it. Identify the thing they're mad about that, like specifically Spotify is mad about. Okay. From Spotify spokesperson, once again, Apple is using its dominant position and unfair practices to disadvantage competitors and deprive consumers by favoring its own services. We call on competition authorities to act urgently to restrict Apple's anti-competitive behavior, which if left unchecked, will cause irreparable harm to the developer community and threaten our collective freedoms to listen, learn, create, and connect. And I read this, I was like, that is storming. They're very mad about these confusingly named bundles.

• 51:17Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  Does Spotify know that it's like the market leader? Like, there are more people who who use Spotify than Apple Music.

• 51:25Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, we did a little reporting and Apple responded. I think I understand what they're angry about. I think the statement just doesn't say it out loud, which is a mistake. What they're saying is, what do you have? You have iCloud. You need iCloud data.

• 51:40Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 51:40Nilay Patel?

  Apple's gonna market you iCloud data. Maybe you want TV. You got all this other stuff. This fitness thing looks hot. They're obviously gonna sell a lot of it. They're gonna sell you Apple Music. And once you're bundled in, once you get that and that's part of your bundle, maybe you'll cancel Spotify.

• 51:55Speaker 06

  Yep. No, I mean, that's, that's exactly where, literally where, that's where I am. I was like, I'm gonna say screw it and get the Premier Superplan. And then once I'm paying for the Premier Superplan, maybe I should cancel Spotify because I'm getting Apple Music as part of the Premier Superplan that I just like backed into because I didn't want to think about it.

• 52:11Nilay Patel?

  And that is why Spotify is buying every podcast in the world. Straight up. That's what they're doing. That's what they're creating exclusives, the way that the TV streaming services have exclusives. They're just doing it upfront with gigantic checks, which is like a way to do it. So, I mean, I don't, it's crazy for me on this show to be like, I don't see the problem here, but I just thought this statement was very funny because the bundles have to be successful before they're harmful. And just because Apple is big and they're excited about something, does not mean it will be successful. I would point you to several of the services in the bundle as evidence of this fact.

• 52:46Speaker 03

  Neil, are you implying that Apple TV+ Yeah.

• 52:50Nilay Patel?

  Like, Apple will get Oprah and Jennifer Aniston, like, whatever, and they will be like, "Look at these elephants." And like, their service is nowhere.

• 52:59Speaker 06

  Ted Lasso is a good show.

• 53:01Speaker 03

  Ted Lasso is actually surprisingly good.

• 53:03Speaker 06

  Wait for the season to finish and then pay for a month of Apple TV Plus and binge Ted Lasso and then cancel it. That is my advice to you.

• 53:09Nilay Patel?

  No, pay $360 a year and play one arcade game and be like, "I don't know what I'm doing here." Yeah, I understand why they're doing it. I wish that what they had done, and I, you know, I think this would have increased the complexity of this even further, but I don't know, once you decide to be complicated, just be all the way complicated. They should have done it with the phone. They already have the iPhone upgrade plan. They already have a credit card. Just say, "You're gonna buy a new phone and you're gonna pay us, what is it, $300 a year and $1,000 a month for a phone. You're gonna pay us 200 bucks a month, right? And you're gonna get the best phone we make and all of our services. And every two years, we'll give you a new phone." And like, that would have been compelling. It would have actually been more costly.

• 53:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 53:52Nilay Patel?

  But it would have made sense. And I think just that it makes sense and it feels like you're getting a lot for that payment because you're getting a phone out of it would have carried the day. I just think their carriers would have hated them. Actually executing that worldwide would have been impossible. And they have 45 upcoming phone SKUs.

• 54:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 54:12Nilay Patel?

  And like, how on earth do you manage it? But man, that would have been way more compelling than what you really want is some more than our stingy five gigs of iCloud storage.

• 54:21Speaker 03

  It's manageable. Like, they already do most of this. Like, if you buy an iPhone in the iPhone upgrade program, it is the cost of the phone divided by 24 plus the cost of Apple Care for that phone divided by 24. And that's your monthly payment. And that changes from phone to phone and it's tied to your iCloud account. Like, they're close. They could easily throw this in and knock off like a dollar on each of these things and it would be, you know, gangbusters.

• 54:46Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. There were definitely some, some like, there was Trump thrown in the water at us, I would say. This is their first cut at it and more stuff might happen. But I can't imagine recommending, because they're gonna push it. I just can't imagine when I get the question, "Should I sign up for Apple One?" And they'd be like, "Yes." The same when people are like, "Should I sign up for Google One?" I'm like, "What is it?"

• 55:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 55:08Nilay Patel?

  I have Google one. It's storage. It's storage. It's not even YouTube, which is like the best money you can spend is turning half ads off on YouTube. Anyhow, that is the bulk of it. Let's take a break. There's still a lot more to talk about. A lot happened this week. We'll be right back.

• 55:26Speaker 08

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• 56:03Speaker 04

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• 56:43Nilay Patel?

  Okay. Hi. The other thing I really want to talk to you on the sort of the chip side, but then we got to talk PS5 Oculus Quest 2. A lot happened this week. But on the chip side, there was a A14. Right next to A14, Nvidia announced its deal to buy ARM for $40 billion. Do you see those things?

• 57:00Speaker 06

  Connecting.

• 57:01Speaker 03

  So not really is the honest answer. ARM still has like, this isn't going to drastically change any of like ARM's business with Apple or Qualcomm or any of those companies, at least not in, in, you know, the immediate term. Like, these companies have long-term contracts with ARM already. A new boss isn't going to change it, just like SoftBank owning it didn't really change it. I do think that this is, you know, this could potentially set up some interesting things for Nvidia stuff down the road. Nvidia is an ARM customer, like Nvidia makes Tegra chips. There's one in like your Nintendo Switch. Uh, there's one in your Nvidia Shield, you know, set-top box that people really, really love.

• 57:39Speaker 06

  Don't, don't say anything mean about it. I might buy one soon because YouTube is such hot garbage on the Apple TV because the GP9 codec isn't working. I've been, I've been sending Neill pictures of like what YouTube looks like on my TV.

• 57:51Nilay Patel?

  If you want to see some photos of chunky, black compression artifacts.

• 57:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:56Nilay Patel?

  Dieter's got you covered.

• 57:57Speaker 06

  Okay. Anyway, sorry. Uh, so I agree with you. So Apple's fine because I think they, they don't license the actual, they like license the instruction set or something, but not the actual like design. The question is like, long-term, will Nvidia mess with ARM's like neutrality? Long-term, will Nvidia be able to hold itself back from trying to take another run at Qualcomm on cellphone chips? Do you really think that like in five years that there's not going to be some tomfoolery, some skullduggery, some shenanigans?

• 58:31Speaker 03

  There could be. I, I don't know if Nvidia has the motive. Nvidia also, at least for now, is really pushing this at areas of like, you know, AI and data center stuff and, and energy efficiency. What I do think is you're going to eventually start to see, you know, the Cortex GPU that you get in your, that, you know, Qualcomm, you know, licenses is going to be, you know, an RTX. They're going to slap some, some good Qualcomm, some good Nvidia branding on there.

• 58:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 58:59Speaker 03

  There could be stuff down the road where, you know, Nvidia, you know, starts to trickle back their GPU stuff to work with ARM-based chips. Uh, I think we're still very, very far from, from any of that being the case. ARM, ARM has existed for years and has been doing this for years. I don't think a new owner is necessarily going to mean, you know, suddenly your, your next Nintendo Switch is going to have, you know, a giant RTX 3080 strapped onto it, built into.

• 59:26Nilay Patel?

  That'd be incredible. I think the RTX 3080 is bigger than the Switch, actually.

• 59:30Speaker 03

  I

• 59:30Nilay Patel?

  I think it's physically bigger than the Switch. I don't think it's that. I will say, whenever I hear the new owner isn't going to do it, I'm like, oh, they're gonna, they're gonna mess with it. Like, SoftBank didn't know what to do with it. SoftBank was just collecting companies, which turned out to be disastrous idea.

• 59:44Speaker 03

  SoftBank arguably didn't do anything with it, because I don't think they made any money on this.

• 59:48Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I mean, they were, they were a different kind of owner. Nvidia bought this stuff for a reason. I think know what to do with it.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:56Nilay Patel?

  And I like, who are the players that are affected by it? It's Apple, which has one kind of license. And they don't really, you know, they design their own chips from scratch, but they need the instruction set. So that's one set of challenges, interactions. Apple and Nvidia don't get along as companies. That's a lot to think about. Samsung makes chips.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  Yep. Samsung, Huawei, like every, basically every mobile chip.

• 1:00:20Nilay Patel?

  Qualcomm.

• 1:00:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:22Nilay Patel?

  Qualcomm. Does Qualcomm have a history of, I don't know, lawsuits? Do you think that could be interesting? Qualcomm's like, we own all the IP. Like, give it to, like, there's a lot here that I think Nvidia, because it is a motivated owner.

• 1:00:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Nilay Patel?

  Maybe they went lucky with it immediately, but they are motivated to do things with the asset.

• 1:00:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Nilay Patel?

  In a way that SoftBank was motivated to just collect, collect profit.

• 1:00:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Nilay Patel?

  And I think that's like a very different, we'll see how it goes. Let's skip all the chip news. Let's talk about PS5.

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  We know what all the, the next gen of consoles is like, it's like bottom of the show.

• 1:00:57Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a huge news. Also huge. Physically huge, yeah.

• 1:01:02Speaker 03

  It's so big.

• 1:01:03Nilay Patel?

  Hi, I'm Walk, Walk us to these price points.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  Okay, PS5 Digital Edition is 400, PS5 is 500, 500. Most expensive piece is most Xbox Series X. The Xbox Series S is still $100 cheaper than the PS5 Digital Edition, but not as powerful. But the PS5 is not as powerful in turn as the Xbox Series X, at least in some things. It has a faster SSD, which will maybe impact like some Sony exclusive games. At the end of the day, though, like, you know, EA and Ubisoft and everyone still have to make a game that runs on on all three of these different boxes at this point. So like, it might look slightly nicer on one or on the other, but like, I don't think we're going to see too big of drastic differences between

• 1:01:48Speaker 03

  these three, at least from third-party stuff. And then like, you know, God of War is where, you know, Sony can flex, or like Ratchet and Clank, which they've already been showing off, is like, look how fast we can switch between levels.

• 1:01:59Nilay Patel?

  What I like about this pricing the most is that it it absolutely implies that a Blu-ray drive in 2020 costs $100.

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  Part of it is the Blu-ray drive is expensive, but also part of this, and Sam Byford wrote a really great piece on this, is Sony doesn't really need to charge you more. When Sony's charging you more for the Blu-ray drive, it's charging you that $100 upfront because it's going to lose money on games on you. Because I can buy, you know, your used copy of God of War when you're done with it. I can go to GameStop and get a used copy. And Sony doesn't get a cut of that. If I buy a PS5 Digital Edition, every dollar of every game that I spend is going to go through Sony. So what do they care if they lose 100 bucks upfront? They're making pure profit on me for the entire life of the machine in a way that they're not necessarily going to do on the disc one.

• 1:02:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I think that's super. I mean, that this was the fight about this last generation of Xboxes, right? And they Microsoft had to walk it all back. But we're also on the cusp of massive game streaming services becoming mainstream, particularly with XCloud. Stadia exists, continues to exist. But like, that is the future. Everyone sees that future. And it's interesting that the the disc one here is like, we're still having this conversation, which I love. Like, I love that people are so like, I'd rather buy used disc than completely give in to digital transactions. But at the same time, there's no way any of these, the next generation of this, has a disk drive.

• 1:03:26Speaker 03

  And that's like the weird, the weird like line in the sand that's being drawn, like, the most expensive Xbox is like, the uber most powerful thing is like, a doubling down on, you must have this giant, ultra-powerful, you know, GPU, CPU, it has to run all the things, it has to have a disk drive. It the Xbox Series X is interesting because it's in many ways like, the antithesis of what Microsoft says is the future of games. Like, the Xbox Series X is like, you're gonna buy a copy of Halo on a disk, and you're gonna put it in this Xbox, and it's gonna run in your living room, and it's got big fans. And that's kind of been Sony's approach. For the for the whole time, like Sony's been like, this worked super well for us on the PlayStation 4. You're gonna buy God of War and you're gonna buy Ratchet and Clank and you're gonna buy Horizon.

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  Go to the west, um, go west, young Horizon.

• 1:04:15Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  Like Sony, Sony's always been there and and like the the PS5 just being a big, more powerful PS4 kind of makes sense. Microsoft is like, game streaming is the future, but also buy this Xbox.

• 1:04:30Speaker 06

  Well, but they also have the this, the, you know, the plan where you can like pay in installments. And it's actually ends up being a little bit cheaper, which is really fascinating.

• 1:04:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Speaker 06

  To me, like Sony's like-

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  But you still have to have, you still have the box.

• 1:04:41Speaker 06

  Right, you still-

• 1:04:42Nilay Patel?

  Can I just point out that Microsoft's installments are about as much as Apple One Premier?

• 1:04:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Nilay Patel?

  But you can get a whole ass Xbox and X-Cloud and Game Pass Ultimate 5G or whatever the fuck it's called. Or you can get Apple Music and Apple-

• 1:05:00Speaker 03

  Those Apple Arcade games, though. I mean, I think, I think Halo Infinite and that one Game of Thrones game they released.

• 1:05:07Speaker 06

  There are some good-

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  There are some goods.

• 1:05:09Speaker 06

  Come on, you're right that Sony is like, well, last time we just made a really powerful console and got the best game exclusives and that worked really well. So we're just gonna do that again. Xbox and Microsoft's like, we're gonna bet on the future again. And last time they did it with Kinect and IR Blasters. And this time they're just, they're doing it with like game streaming and, uh, you know, the like, the the subscription plan, right? And I think that the difference from the last gen to this gen is we have more faith in Microsoft's bet. Because like, it seems like a better bet than we're gonna become the like, console that runs your TV.

• 1:05:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, but they're, but they're, it's like Microsoft is betting on that. But then they're also like, just to cover our bases, here's the console that runs your TV. Like, here's two of them, here's one that's, that's-

• 1:06:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01Speaker 03

  So cheap that you, you can't not pass it up.

• 1:06:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, but they're not, they're not saying this is your cable box, right?

• 1:06:08Speaker 03

  Right, they're not, but I don't think Sony is saying that either.

• 1:06:11Speaker 06

  No, but Microsoft did say it last time with the original Xbox One, they like made it look like a VCR.

• 1:06:17Speaker 03

  Well, neither of them looks like a VCR now.

• 1:06:20Nilay Patel?

  The PS5 absolutely does not look like a VCR. I will say that just from pure design point of view, I'm like, I should get a Series X.

• 1:06:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:06:29Nilay Patel?

  That's the thing I want.

• 1:06:30Speaker 03

  Like, obviously, that's the thing I want. The Series X looks very cool and Sony's looks like a mutated space blob. I respect the space blob, but...

• 1:06:38Nilay Patel?

  We did that when they announced it. We did that whole post with what people thought it looked like. You know, it was very funny. You should read it. But my favorite one was like, "This looks like the performing arts center for an overfunded Midwestern college." Like, that is 100% what it looks like.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:51Nilay Patel?

  Well, I'm very excited about this. It's coming. This fall, hardware review season, right? 5G iPhones, two new consoles, whatever. There's a bunch of Google stuff coming.

• 1:07:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, the Google announced that they're doing the Nest Speaker, the Chromecast, and Pixels. Two Pixels.

• 1:07:08Nilay Patel?

  So we got some stuff. All right, let's wrap it up. There's an Oculus Connect event. There's an Oculus Quest 2 out. Addie reviewed it for us. Heim, what'd you think?

• 1:07:20Speaker 03

  This is also just interesting. Like, Facebook consolidated its whole lineup. Like, there's no Quest S and Quest and Rift. Like, you just, you buy the Oculus. This is the thing. It works on its own. If you want to plug it into your gaming laptop and have it be better, you can. But it's one thing, which I think is like a big leap forward for it and just like simplifying this. Also, it costs like, you know, $300, which means that like, this is a console. Like, you can buy this and use this as a console. It has, you know, the controllers and the stuff. It has, you know, internal storage. Like, it comes in 64GB and 250GB, like, SKUs. And if you're just, you know, trying to, if you're trying to say that, you know, VR is here and VR is having its moment,

• 1:08:04Speaker 03

  like, having one consolidated thing that you can just be like, "That's the thing you need," is, I think, like, a big step.

• 1:08:11Nilay Patel?

  Hey, this is the one that gets me to actually buy one. Every previous one, I'd be like, "I don't know." It's like, am I really... This is where I'm like, "This product feels refined. It feels extensible. It feels like it has shelf life."

• 1:08:22Speaker 03

  Yep. And then, you know, the faster refresh rate is great, you know, high resolution is great. Like, they made good improvements. It's apparently more comfortable. Like, all the things that it needed, it got.

• 1:08:32Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Okay. The last thing I want to say, Casey interviewed Zuckerberg on VR and AR. You should read it. It's a compelling interview. Every time I read Zuckerberg talk about AR and Zuckerberg had this quote, he's like, HEDs are not the future. I don't want to put an Apple watch on your face, which is a good line. Also, have you noticed Zuck feels way more just free to dunk on Apple lately? Like Facebook executives, Instagram, Adam Mosseri dunked on Apple for advertising stuff the other day. That war is heating up. Like it's there. But anyway, so Zuck says, I don't want to put an Apple watch on your face. Every time I read about VR and AR, and we've heard a lot about Apple's efforts in VR and AR, particularly AR, when it's Mark Zuckerberg, the first thing I think about is who will be the content moderator for AR, right? When you're literally augmenting reality, who gets to decide

• 1:09:17Nilay Patel?

  what information is displayed on top of reality as reality? And I am desperate for someone to start asking that question. It should probably be us because I'm in charge of a technology newsroom, but you understand what I'm saying is that we can ask the questions on the verge, but I think it's time for the, at this moment of development, it's, I think it is better to ask those questions early before the products are released. And the first nut job walks in front of a courthouse and sees like, this is where the deep state is and does something stupid because you can see that coming from a mile away. And I don't think it's been contended with it. That's it. That's my little, that's my little AR speech.

• 1:09:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you're already getting that with the Facebook stuff, right? Like the big downside, and we should have mentioned this earlier, the big downside of the quest is like Facebook's like, this is our first one that you're gonna have to have a Facebook login. You can't use their separate Oculus login. Like they did all the right things they need to do on hardware and price and specs, but like, there's this like looming specter of Facebook. And at a certain point, it becomes, you know, how much do you trust Facebook with your login? And how much do you trust Facebook with your data? And there's going to be a bunch of people are going to be like, who cares? We have a Facebook account. Don't care. And there's going to be a lot of people who, you know, rightfully so, are going to be like, I don't necessarily want to be, you know, feeding the inputs of my eyes to Mark Zuckerberg's, you know, server farm.

• 1:10:37Speaker 03

  And that's a, that's a legitimate concern. I don't know how Facebook reconciles with this other than being like, we're a hardware company, deal with it. Like, people do not, you know, you, you want to use, you know, Apple fitness, you're going to need an Apple account. And Nicole and everyone had kind of discussed, you know, you know, who gets this data and who gets to use it? It's just Facebook in particular has such a bad rep here in a way that, you know, Apple and even Google doesn't. That putting this requirement on making it a mandatory thing, just it it doesn't feel great.

• 1:11:08Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's funny because they had already owned Oculus, but like actually making it formally your Facebook account really set off a lot of people. I think what's instructive here is the portal, right? Like, we had all but written off the portal, and then the pandemic hit, and the portal actually got not very popular, but more popular. And you saw tech journalists who were very skeptical of Facebook say, oh, this actually did product right now.

• 1:11:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, but the the portal is a great example because like two months ago, during all the pandemic stuff, Facebook released an update for the portal that lets you use it with like a standalone Facebook workplace account for like the Facebook Slack that's not tied to your to your personal Facebook account. It's it's the opposite. Like, that's what this that's what people want for this and don't have.

• 1:11:50Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, the portal also works with Zoom. They're making that more of a general purpose kind of space computer. I don't know what you would I say space computer, the the reason I said space was I was thinking of space heaters because it looks like a space speaker. Like, it's a it's a it's a physically. Anyway, you know, it's a space heater at the end. All right, that was a lot of stuff. We did briefly mention the Google stuff. September 30 pixel five and new Chromecast new smart speaker. So that's coming. I'll end by just gesturing broadly at the disaster that is TikTok, which also just had an entire news cycle this week of ups and downs. I can't even there's no way to even condense it. Because just today, the deal might get blown up again. But Microsoft pulled out of the

• 1:12:33Nilay Patel?

  deal to buy TikTok. Oracle was going to step in as a trusted technology partner. That just appears to have gone to hell already. So we still don't know what's going on with TikTok, and the deadline hasn't been hasn't been extended. We're just going to keep tracking it. If we had recorded this a day ago, I would have been like, here's what's happening with TikTok. But like, one more day has has gone on.

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  Because like, as we record this right now, like Walmart was like, maybe we'll join in. And like, the people are waiting on Trump, but it's a mess.

• 1:12:58Nilay Patel?

  I love the idea of Walmart buying TikTok. I love it so much.

• 1:13:03Speaker 03

  They did just fine with Vudu.

• 1:13:05Nilay Patel?

  Actually, there is one little piece of breaking TikTok news. TikTok has approached Kevin Systrom. Former founder and CEO of Instagram to run TikTok.

• 1:13:14Speaker 06

  Oh my God.

• 1:13:14Nilay Patel?

  Because he was mad at it. It's okay. That's pretty good. All right. We have gone long as always. I don't know why I say we've gone the normal. We've done it again. Thank you to Heim, thank you to Nicole. You can tweet at us. Heim is Seegartenberg. Nicole is at Nicole Wetzman. Dieter is Baklon. I'm at Reckless. We're running a survey right now, voxmedia.com/podsurvey. We love your feedback. It helps us make decisions. Please go take the survey. We will not send your iData to Mark Zuckerberg's server farm. Or will we? We won't. Dieter's got a newsletter at theverge.com/newsletter called Processor. I've got a new podcast coming out in October called Decoder. Very excited about that. Love your feedback. Tweeted me about that. Dieter, you've got a show on Tuesday. What's happening here?

• 1:13:56Speaker 06

  Oh, so Neelai is off developing his brand new show Decoder, but we still ought to bring you Tuesday episodes. And so for the next few weeks, I'm gonna try some stuff on the Tuesday episodes. It's good to see what happens. It's gonna be exciting.

• 1:14:10Nilay Patel?

  Very good.

• 1:14:11Speaker 06

  The next week, we're gonna, we're gonna do a really big deep dive on the Surface Duo and the Galaxy Z Fold 2.

• 1:14:19Nilay Patel?

  Ooh, little review Redux. I like it. All right. That's it. Thank you, everybody. Thank you for listening. We're out. Rock and roll.

• 1:14:26Speaker 06

  You know what you should do?

• 1:14:27Nilay Patel?

  What's that?

• 1:14:28Speaker 06

  You should wear a mask.

• 1:14:51Speaker 09

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