Microsoft Surface Duo with Engadget's Cherlynn Low

Every Tuesday this month, Vergecast co-host Dieter Bohn hosts a series of discussions diving deep into tech review season, each focusing on a specific product. This week, Dieter and Verge deputy editor Dan Seifert talks with Engadget's Cherlynn Low about Microsoft's Surface Duo. The trio discuss how the process of reviewing this device differs from others in the past, where it stands in the phone and tablet market, and other notable points from Dieter and Cherlynn's time with the Duo that didn't make it into the review. We are conducting an audience survey to better serve you. It takes no more than five minutes, and it really helps out the show. Please take our survey here: voxmedia.com/podsurvey. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:34Speaker 03

  Greetings, mobile accomplishers. Welcome to The Vergecast. We're doing something a little bit different for the Tuesday episodes for the next little while. As you may have heard, Neelai has a new show that he is starting called Decoder, and so he's working on that. In the meantime, because it's hardware silly season and there's so much stuff coming out, we wanted to spend a few episodes doing a deep dive on some of the reviews of the devices that are coming out right now. And in order to do that, I didn't want to just like tell you more stuff about my review or Dan's review or somebody else's review at The Verge. We wanted to speak to other reviewers that are looking at these devices and give you sort of... Like a director's commentary to the different reviews. I think it enriches your understanding of the reviews and it enriches our understanding of the devices themselves.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  So very, very excited for the first episode. We have Sherlin Low from NGadget. She reviewed the Surface Duo, just like I did, and we're going to have a big, long conversation about it. We were also joined by Dan Seifert, who's a deputy editor at The Verge, because he edits our reviews and he has a lot to say from that perspective as well. So this was a really fun conversation, really understood a lot more about how to think about this new category of folding devices, and I think you're gonna enjoy it.

• 2:45Speaker 03

  Sherlin Low, you are the reviews editor at NGadget. Thanks for joining us.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me. What an honor.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  An honor? Well, it's just a Vergecast. What are you talking about?

• 2:56Speaker 03

  We also have Dan Seifert here. He's a deputy editor at The Verge. Hello. I'm also honored. Like I said, we wanted to dig deeper into some of the reviews that we've been doing, because it's hardware season and everything is nuts. Sherlin, you have reviewed the Surface Duo, the Microsoft Surface Duo.

• 3:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  And before we really get into it, like this hardware season in particular, I feel like we've gone from like, oh, we've got weird experimental form factors to we've got form factors that people are trying to make real. Like, what do you think of this idea that we're finally moving away from just flat glass slabs?

• 3:32Speaker 04

  I think it's an interesting dichotomy, because, yeah, on the one hand, we've got Samsung and Microsoft trying like dual screen and folding screens, and LG with the wing. Holy crap.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  It's getting weird, and I love the weird. I welcome it. But on the other hand, we've also got the candy bar, you know, that traditional smartphone look is really just gone to a point where it's so almost boring, but it's good. That, and it's so, the formula is so refined that like Google was able to do the Pixel 4A. And actually, that's what I liked more. But the place for like a Surface Duo, something like that, right? It's not like people haven't tried to make dual screens happen. It's just like the excitement now is palpable. It's, people want something like this now, where they might not have as much before.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that's like the people want and whether or not there's a market for it is the big question. So the thing that I struggle with is are they doing this because they can, you know, the Jurassic Park quote, like they're scientists, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or are they doing it because they have a genuine vision? Or they're just doing it to like have something that feels new because the the market is stagnating a little bit and there's like a, you know, just everything is a candy bar now. Actually, we have a clip. We had Panos Panay make the Surface Duo up on the Vergecast a while ago when they were first like trotting it around and showing everybody. Andrew, can you play that clip from Panos where he like talks about the category of this thing?

• 4:57Speaker 05

  I feel like phone is such a limiting word, you know, and then you say, well, smartphone, I don't even know what that means. And then fablet, I'm not sure what that is. But everything has an identifying factor to it. Even when we started Surface, people are like, so it's a tablet. I'm like, it's not a tablet. It's just not a tablet. It's a Surface. I don't know what to say. And you want to categorize it and put it there. I think if you're going to create a new category, you're going to try and change things, push, push things forward. The minute you put you put it in a box, I think you're lost. So I've been pretty resistant to that, just to not end up there.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  First off, I'm pretty sure Panos knows what a fablet is.

• 5:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 5:29Speaker 03

  Like, I don't think he's too lost when someone says it's a fablet.

• 5:32Speaker 04

  No, I, in my review too, like, I immediately was like, what is the Surface Duo? It's not a phone. It's just not good as a phone. It's not a phone. It's also not really a tablet. In fact, as a tablet, I think it kind of sucks. It's just something trying to be a lot of things. And I, and hearing that Panos description of it now makes a lot of sense. This duo seems to be something that doesn't really know what it is and doesn't know what it wants to be, but it's still trying to go and be a lot of things anyway.

• 6:02Speaker 03

  Well, the fascinating thing is, it doesn't seem to know what it wants to be. You, I think you said like, this is basically two phones. That's the best way to think about it. And I kind of agree that that's basically how to think about it. But the fact that Microsoft is refusing to say it's a, are they just doing this to like have something different? Or they're like, do you genuinely think, I don't know, Dan, maybe you can answer, do you genuinely think they have a real vision for like the future? Because like, there's also the Neo apparently still hanging out there somewhere.

• 6:26Speaker 06

  You know, I I was gonna allude to that statement that you made earlier about like, what are these companies thinking? And like, I don't want to give Microsoft too much credit because we all know how the Surface Duo has turned out and we'll talk more about that. But I think when you talk about like what Samsung is Samsung's approach versus Microsoft's approach to this dual screen thing. And it seems like Samsung is very much like, we've done the stale design for 10 years, we're trying something new, we can do it, we have the technology. That's why we're doing this. Whereas Microsoft doesn't have that like, I mean, it has a failed legacy of many years of of making phones. But it doesn't have like a successful phone business that it needs to like take to the next level. It is introducing a new form factor that maybe, maybe Microsoft doesn't really know how it is or what it's supposed to be.

• 7:09Speaker 06

  Maybe we don't know what it's supposed to be yet, like, but they have access to technology that allows them to produce this form factor. And I think to to your point, Cherlynn, earlier where you were saying people are excited and palpable about them. It really feels like the hardware form factor, the design is really driving a lot of that. And and you could do it now, you can have this really wildly thin device and and and have these two screens attached. And how are we going to use them? We'll figure that out.

• 7:35Speaker 04

  The intention is definitely like curious. Yeah, I don't know if they're doing it just to do it. Or if they definitely think this is a form factor they can they can see taking off in the future. I will say it's like, not like no company has tried, like Dell has had their prototype, we've seen at CES a while ago and then.

• 7:51Speaker 06

  LG.

• 7:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, LG, oh my gosh, LG is almost a bad word with the dual screen space, I feel like.

• 7:57Speaker 06

  But like, so like, here's the difference, I think, that I see between the Surface Duo, at least on the from the the interest in the Surface Duo versus, say, the interest in an LG dual screen device. The LG hardware was always clunky looking and it was always thick and it was always like literally two phones slapped together and like.

• 8:15Speaker 04

  One and a half phones.

• 8:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, one and a half phones slapped together. We took the camera off, so it's no longer a phone. And then so like, you know, there's this real small niche of people who are like, oh, I can be really productive with that. And this is exactly what I want. But like, most people are gonna be like, why is my phone twice as thick now?

• 8:28Speaker 04

  Yes, exactly.

• 8:29Speaker 06

  And then you look at the Duo and the Duo closed is the same thickness as an iPhone. So like, it totally removes that kind of hesitation that that we've seen before. So like, I think that's that's why I really think that like the the hardware interest, like the just the, this looks so sci fi and futuristic. Like, I want to see how this works is so much different with the Duo than it was with prior dual screen attempts.

• 8:54Speaker 04

  I fully agree that that thinness is amazing. It does bring about its own troubles. And we can talk about that, obviously, but I love how thin it is.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  One more thing before I want to get talking about the device itself. I can't believe I just like keep putting that off. But thinking about this, is it a category or multiple categories? Who knows, like maybe folding phones and dual phones like are one category, maybe they're two, maybe nobody actually knows. That's probably the real answer. The one thing that all these devices have in common is they're super expensive.

• 9:20Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh.

• 9:21Speaker 03

  Maybe not the LG stuff, but the the price on the fold and the the price on the Surface Duo are super high. Like, as you are trying to think about this category and think about reviewing this device specifically, how do you think about this price? Because it's it's super hard to wrap my head around and like give people advice when it comes to these prices.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  I have to think about it in the way that like a person walking into a store would like, are they going to pay the upfront fee or are they more likely to choose the installment plan? And I think for a device like this, they're more likely to go with the monthly fee. And the people who are very excited by the form factor are going to want it and they're going to opt for the monthly fee. Just because like, I I mean, I've been there. I've been there where I really want something and I can't afford to pay for it upfront. And I'm just like, oh, there's a monthly installment that's kind of cheap. I'll do it. So as much as price is a big issue with these devices, I feel like when you break it down in 24 payments, a lot of people who are big fans of new novel things like this don't really mind, which is sad. But it at least gives them the opportunity to try something like that out.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, my hobby horse with any subscription plan is you should always list the monthly price and the yearly price. Because people understand the yearly price better in their heads when they're trying to weigh what it's worth.

• 10:34Speaker 04

  I also think not a lot of people are as good at finances as we think.

• 10:39Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm terrible.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  A lot of bad decisions being made sometimes.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  I definitely just bought a PS5 because like I the page worked for me. I didn't really know if I wanted one. But like the page actually worked for a second. I was like, oh, done. It's like, why did I do that? I don't know. Yeah.

• 10:53Speaker 04

  Good for you.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  Okay, so we should talk about the thing itself. We should actually talk about the Duo. In your review, what did you think was the most important thing to impart on your readers? Like what and your viewers in the YouTube video, what was the thing you definitely wanted people to know? When you got done with this and wanted to tell people about it?

• 11:09Speaker 04

  I really wanted them to know that as much as I was excited for this thing, that that it still is very difficult to use in the real world. And also kind of like, what are you getting for the money? And I'm sure you guys have the same like issue, right? It's like I, in my head, I have this internal debate, like whenever I write a video, I'm like, okay, what are the haters and the fans going to say? Because you kind of have to couch against that. And I know the Microsoft hardcore fans are going to love this regardless. And I need to tell these people like, it's fine to be in this almost like idol worshiping relationship. As long as you're going clear eyed, knowing that there are problems you're going to have to face and go through. And if you're okay with that, good for you, live your life.

• 11:52Speaker 04

  But not everyone's going to be, and I think that that's what I wanted to point out, which is, I guess, kind of philosophical.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  Well, no, it's totally philosophical. I mean, for me, on this one in particular, my very first plan was to say like, the thing you absolutely need to know about this thing is it's got bugs. It's got beautiful hardware, it's got like a terrible camera, blah, blah, blah. But like, the first thing was bugs. And when they put an update out and they like tamp the bugs down a little, then I had this balance of, do I talk to the Microsoft fans who want like a Microsoft ecosystem thing, like you're saying? Or do I try and explain the concept and the vision? Or do I just like say, you know, this thing has bugs, here's how you use it? And like balancing like practical versus like what it could be versus like talking to the actual target market for this thing? Was way harder than your average phone, in my opinion.

• 12:38Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh. Our jobs are already pretty hard not to like.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Poor us.

• 12:44Speaker 04

  Trying to balance all of this into one article, which by the way, sometimes, so my editor, Terrence O'Brien does not like when I submit anything upward of three thousand words. So trying to cram everything.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  I can relate.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  Oh, so you're a word cutter. I see. Yeah, so we try to keep things concise and it's hard to squeeze all of that that you just said Dieter into one 2,500 word story. It's a lot. The Duo is something that I've not reviewed, like something like this I haven't reviewed in a while and every, I had to leave so many examples out. I had to like cut out a lot of things.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  So one of the things that I found myself cutting before I gave my 3,000 word draft to Dan, hi Dan, was having too many comparisons to the Galaxy Z Fold 2. But I saw you, you like, you, you definitely held the both in your hand. You definitely had them on a table. Like, what do you, how do you think about those two devices in comparison to each other?

• 13:39Speaker 04

  I think this is finally the time for us to have that debate between photo balls and dual screens because we finally have a dual screen device that really can be a good candidate. The Z Fold 2 also is finally kind of like good enough.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:51Speaker 04

  And comparing the two, people keep asking me, and, and we did a lot of live streams with the Surface Duo when we first got it and stuff, and we were getting a lot of direct feedback from people who are actually interested in these things. And that really helps me understand what people are curious to find out. And one of the things they, they keep asking, what's the difference between the two? I'm like, there's a hinge that you can see in one of them and you can't see the hinge in the other on the screen. And there's an outside screen on the Z Fold 2. And can I just spell out these differences and how, you know, it affects your use of the device? I think the Z Fold 2's outside screen really is much better than how you would use a Duo otherwise as a phone, which is you flip the screen all the way around, which took me a while to realize too, like, oh, right,

• 14:36Speaker 04

  I can unfold this all the way around. But essentially, the main difference comes down to trying to use them as a big screen tablet where like that hinge really eats stuff up on the Duo and on the Z Fold 2, it's not that much of a problem. The crease is so minimal.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, the, the fact that the, the hinge on the Duo, when you said it eats content, like people don't realize that they don't, the screens don't kind of split out. And so it's just like, there's a big gap there. It literally acts like it's one big screen, even though it's not. So that hinge gap destroys content. Like you will lose words or you'll lose part of the picture in that gap.

• 15:11Speaker 04

  That is totally okay if you're reading an article and you can guess what the words are. But if you're like playing a game or you're like, there's buttons in there that you have to press and they happen to be on the hinge, good luck buying your PS5 on the mobile browser.

• 15:24Speaker 03

  So Dan, writing these things during the pandemic and shooting these videos during the pandemic is hard on one hand, but it's also hard for you editing because you didn't actually get to hold the thing. And like, I just, I had to submit this draft to you. So like, when you are trying as a reviews editor to actually like, take this thing and like, point out the stuff that is obvious to me that's not obvious to you, like, how does that work for you?

• 15:45Speaker 06

  You know, the first thing I think I start asking you questions about, and this is even before you hand in the draft, but I just know you have the thing in your hand, is like, does this work on it? Can I do this on it? Like, because, because just like, just like a reader, or just like, a fan, or anyone else who's like, seen this product and wants to talk to somebody who's used it, you have a bunch of ideas in your head of like, how would I use this thing? What can I do with this? And so my first questions are like, what apps work across both screens? What like, what does Kindle do when you open it? Like, do you have to tell it that you need to have two pages there? Or does it just try to stretch that one page across? Or like, what does Google Maps look like? Or like, you know, all these kind of like, practical things that I would just like, if I had the thing in my hand, and once I got past that first like, five minutes of playing with the

• 16:28Speaker 06

  hinge, I would start opening apps and start like, installing things and start being like, okay, can I do this? Can I do that? And so like, that's, that's where my thought process starts. And like, like I said, that I'm, I'm, as an editor, working with you much before you submit a draft, so that we can like, hone an angle and figure out what we want to say, and what is the right thing to say, and what is the right thing to cut, and so on and so forth. So like, those are the questions I start. And then, then the feedback I get from you is like, well, it's really buggy.

• 16:57Speaker 06

  And then I'm like, well, okay, now my, my dreams are a little dashed. My hopes, my hopes are a little, little more subdued. Where is it buggy? What does it prevent you from doing? How often is it frustrating you? Like, and I think we, we deal with that a lot in, in a lot of products. It's like, you can brush aside a bug or two, especially if it's, it's infrequent, not something that you're going to see all the time. But when you start piling up bug after bug after bug after bug, and it's like, to use a cliched phrase, death by a thousand cuts, then the, the, the experience really starts to get worse, and really starts to frustrate you. And if, if you can't spend a half an hour using a product without Something crashing, or a bug happening, or your keyboard flipping to the other

• 17:40Speaker 06

  screen when you need to type, or whatever other bugs you've seen with this, like, that's like a nonstarter. And like, at that point, it's just like, okay, this is a great concept, a great idea that clearly is not finished. And that's where we really need to get to that point into the into the article itself, or into the review itself.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  So this maybe brings us to the next thing I wanted to talk about, which is when we're reviewing these things, I think a lot of people don't realize just everything, like, the weird stuff that happens while we're reviewing a device. Any notable incidents for you, Shirin, whilst you were in the process of reviewing this device? Anything, anything happen?

• 18:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, before they issued that software update on September 5th, I was ready to throw this thing somewhere, except for I couldn't pay for it. So it was so impossible. I don't know if you had the same experience, Dieter, but before the fix, it was impossible for me to span an app across two screens. And then switching them from one screen to the other also was just nearly impossible. And I hate, and I think a lot of reviewers feel this way, too. I hate when a company tells me you're doing it wrong, because like, if I'm doing it wrong, the user's not, I'm like, I'm more savvy than the average shopper at Walmart or something. And if I can't figure out how to do this right, they're not going to. And that's terrible. But after they fixed it, and after I had like, my office

• 18:57Speaker 04

  hours with them, which they did with all of us, which they needed to, to be honest, a lot of things started to become easier to use. But yeah, I still hate it. Like, when Dan, when you mentioned the keyboard, I had such a PTSD flash moment, where like, just it is impossible to type to people on that thing sometimes, especially in the laptop mode. So.

• 19:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, just stuff would just fly around in unexpected ways. And it was, and having, having to do the gestures was really difficult. The other thing, I mean, just a software update coming in the middle of a review process that makes it really difficult to talk about is sometimes the software doesn't come in the review process. Samsung is famous for this. We have, you get a thing, there's a ton of bugs on it, and you're like, hey, there's some bugs. And they're like, yeah, but there's going to be a software update on day one. And you're like, okay.

• 19:45Speaker 04

  So we're not reviewing it now, then?

• 19:47Speaker 03

  What do we do? What do we do with that?

• 19:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, day one typically being the day that the thing goes on sale, two days after a review embargo has lifted, or whatever. So like, Well after we're able to test it.

• 19:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:58Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 19:59Speaker 03

  Do you have a, do you have a approach for when that happens? Do you just wait? Do you just review what they gave you? What do you, what do you think you should do in those cases?

• 20:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is such an internal philosophical struggle too, because I would much rather we not care about embargoes and not care about when the company dictates you publish their review. But then we have to think about, I mean, Verge is one of our competitors, right? And I had to think about like, Dieter's probably going to get his article right up in the minute that the embargo breaks. So I have to have something up. So the approach then is to be like, as transparent as possible with my readers, saying that Samsung says it's going to issue this fix. But because I wasn't able to test the fix, I can't tell you the fix will be, you know, effective. But right now, there's a chance this might still not work when you get it.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. I had a lot of angst about this too. Same, and Gadget's one of our competitors. One of the things that helped me is Michael Fisher, Mr. Mobile on YouTube, put up a, just a big, long thing where he's like, "Look, this is a device that they gave reviewers, saying, judge this to tell everybody if you should buy it or not." And if, if that is what they hand us to say, judge this, and then they, that's what we're going to judge. And if there ends up being a software update and it's like, significant, then we will tell you. But I just gotta say, 85 times out of 100, the software update doesn't fix it. It just does not. And the fact that Microsoft's software update did, and that they got it to us before day one, was actually shocking.

• 21:22Speaker 04

  Yes, I was like, we, so I don't know about you, and maybe this is not, this might be too behind the scenes right now, but I'm part of like, a group chat with some of the other reviewers in the space. Michael Fisher is in the group chat too. So it was really fun to have all of us start, some of us start receiving the software update. And we're like, oh, this works so much better. And other people are like, where's my software update? Why isn't it coming yet? And you know, this thing still break, is broken for me. So you're right, it's really nice to see that the software update actually did improve things.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, I see what's happened here. I, I'm not invited to the group chat is the lesson I've, I've taken away from this podcast. This is a very useful podcast for me. I hope it's useful for the listeners. That's the end, I'm going to go sit in the corner by myself and cry.

• 22:05Speaker 04

  Listen, I was just about to say like, this is the first time we're even talking, like, having a real conversation theater, because whenever we do see each other at events, we're too trying to beat each other to the punch to get our articles up, so we can't even talk to each other.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  Oh, it's not even beating, that's, okay, it's not beating the punch, it's that I'm literally filled with fear and panic and terror nonstop.

• 22:25Speaker 04

  Same, same. I think we're all so stressed out. But you, I remember you were very nice once, and you like freed up a power outlet and was like, here, you can have this power outlet for your laptop. And, no, but now that we're, you know, chatting, obviously, you're invited to the group chat.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Oh, that's very kind of you. Thank you.

• 22:43Speaker 04

  You too, Dan.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  Yay. True story, a true tech journalist story. When I first started going to events, I purposely carried around a little monster, like, three outlet power strip, that was like a travel power strip, so that when we were busy, like, in the press room or something, I could be a good guy and help somebody else plug their thing in when the power outlets were all full, so that I could, like, meet people and make friends.

• 23:10Speaker 04

  I didn't know you wanted to do that. I was, I'm always afraid to approach people, so I never say hi. And I didn't know that you would like people to say hi to you.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  I just, just always assume I'm afraid.

• 23:19Speaker 06

  Even if you're not a tech journalist, this tip is super useful at coffee shops. If you bring a little power strip, you're the person with three power outlets.

• 23:28Speaker 03

  You're the helpful person.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 23:29Speaker 06

  Friends.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  Great way to meet people.

• 23:31Speaker 06

  If we ever go to coffee shops again.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:33Speaker 06

  That, yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  One last sort of meta review thing that I would really like to get into here, and this is probably going to be a theme through all of these shows where we're talking about the meta issues of reviewing devices, is the camera. How important is the camera? Because to me, with so many Android phones specifically, their differentiation between a Moto G whatever and, I don't know, a TCL 10 whatever, like, they've got the same processor, they've got the same RAM, their screens are basically equivalent. Like, you run down the spec list and like, how do you help somebody make a purchasing decision between these phones? And the answer comes down often to the camera. So I feel like, as a reviewer, I often over-index on camera quality, because it's like the one thing that can help you

• 24:19Speaker 03

  make a purchasing decision. But with the Surface Duo specifically, how did you think about the camera and how to, like, talk about it and how heavily to weigh it?

• 24:32Speaker 04

  I didn't weigh it all that heavily because I knew that the person buying this device wouldn't care that much about camera quality anyway.

• 24:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  In terms of quality. But what frustrated me about the Surface Duo and is evident in my review is that like, it is so hard to effing use. Before they issued the software update, it was near impossible to get the correct screen to face me. I don't know if we need to explain that, you know, like because there's only one camera on two screens that, you know, when you're pointing the camera that's facing you, it should be a selfie. And then when you're pointing the camera side out, the other screen should come on, right? And like 90% of the time, it just wouldn't work before the software update. After it improved to like 50%, but it still wasn't working really well. And I think for, it's hard to justify that experience for anyone. Even the most hardcore Microsoft fan shouldn't live with something like that.

• 25:24Speaker 04

  But that, that's what I weighed, not the quality of the images, which were just meh, but more like it's almost impossible to use this camera.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  I think meh is very, very kind to the quality of these images. They were just like, the thing that I, that I felt is they should have just called it a webcam because that's the quality. Like I'm looking at you on a MacBook Pro's terrible webcam right now, just the worst quality. This is what I expect to come out of the Duo. Like it's, it's pretty awful.

• 25:52Speaker 04

  It's really bad in low light. I was getting okay quality in, in like daylight.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  Okay. Yeah. I was like half and half. The update actually affected the camera a little bit. Before the update, I was finding that photos were really, really desaturated and just completely lifeless. And they added a little bit, a little bit more punch when they put that software update out there, a little bit more saturation. Dan, you always harped me that like not everybody cares about, like, how do you think about the camera on smartphone reviews?

• 26:19Speaker 06

  I, I hate to take it from my very personal biased opinion, but like when I rank the five things I care about in a phone for my daily experience, the camera's not even in that list. Like, I mean, like as a person that uses the phone all the time, I care a lot about performance. I care a lot about battery life. I care a ton about that screen quality because that's the thing that I'm interacting with all the time. And I really care about how it works in my hand. Like, is it easy to hold? Can I hold a kid in one hand and scroll Twitter on the other? Because that's the important thing to do in life. And like. Like if I, if I, those things are ruined, like I, it could have the best camera in the world and I don't care because I open the camera app on a phone two to three times a week.

• 26:59Speaker 06

  And most of the time it's like to take dumb pictures of something on my desk or like to scan a receipt or something. So for me, my personal use case, the camera indexes really lowly. And so when I'm asking questions about things, usually I, I, I mean, Dieter, you can back this up. I'm usually not asking about the camera all that much, even though like I find, I, I, I classify myself as a huge photography nerd. I love actual cameras, not phone cameras, and I love taking pictures and debating them and all that fun stuff. The, just the phone camera to me feels like a diminishing return. It can get better and better and better, but it's only going to hit a certain point. And then like it's, it's just, it's going to be a phone camera. That said, $1,400 for the camera that comes on the Duo is like really hard to wrap my head around.

• 27:44Speaker 06

  And I think, I think the way that you approached it, uh, Cherlynn, i- is really appropriate for this device. Like it's not going to be the greatest quality camera. There's, we begin to point out all the image quality things, but like, obviously this device is not there to like capture memories. It's for a different purpose, but like, if you can't even use it to take a picture of the dumb thing on your desk or like scan the receipt or, you know, do the Skype video call or whatever that you would be doing on this, then, then that is like fundamentally broken. Uh, and that's super important. And then like, you know, to take it off of me, like obviously the camera matters a lot to a lot of people. And so it is an important thing, especially if you're saying, well, I'm going to spend $500 more for this phone because the camera is so good.

• 28:26Speaker 06

  Like obviously the camera matters, matters to those people. So you gotta balance it, but.

• 28:31Speaker 04

  I live on Instagram, so it's hard. I like maybe in a different world than Dan is. And so maybe that's why the camera is a bit more important to me. I like to capture what my eyes sees and share it with people that I love and know.

• 28:45Speaker 04

  And also, I mean, I think this is no secret that I take a lot of selfies. So like the selfie camera experience is a whole thing too. But I see your point, the things that you pointed out, Dan, as the things that you, you find important. I think I've just internalized as like basic fundamental things a phone has to do. And so I don't, you know, think about it so, so much. In fact, like some of my reviews don't even talk about like ease of one handed use sometimes, unless it's something like the Duo, which is a bit wider than usual. So the camera is just kind of almost a bonus sometimes.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  I think this is a great spot to take a break. We're going to come back and talk about some other basic things that you expect a smartphone to do, and also some weird new things that you expect a smartphone to do. So we'll be right back.

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• 30:45Speaker 03

  Okay, so we're back. And we were talking about things you can and can't take for granted on a smartphone. And one of the things that we often take for granted on a smartphone is just like the fundamentals of how the software works on like Android or iOS. But the fundamentals of how software works and the way that you get around on it, you cannot take for granted on the Duo. There's also some, just a lot of weird quirks to it. In your YouTube video, you actually talked about, actually, let's just listen to it.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  A lot of the Duo software is buggy. But Microsoft said it plans to roll out updates for the Duo every month. So hopefully, the most glaring issues will get fixed soon enough. But there are some things that might not change. For example, the notification shade here is the same size as on a regular smartphone. So on a screen that's as wide as a Duo's, it feels very narrow. A Microsoft spokesperson told me that they were aware of this, but kept the width so as not to fork Android. And it doesn't sound like that'll be changing anytime soon.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  It is legit wild to me that Microsoft walked all the way up to the edge of should we fork Android or not on this device. Could you talk about like what led you to like that experience of like what was broken and how you like we got to the door of like forking Android?

• 31:58Speaker 04

  It was just I was finding things that were just unintuitive throughout like the notifications panel that I mentioned was too narrow for the dual screen and then it was blocking certain elements on the other screen where it shouldn't be even blocked. And I was like, what is going on here? It doesn't feel natural. And so I asked Microsoft, when I had a chance to talk to them, I was like, hey, you know, what's uh, what's the reason for this? Or is there a fix coming? And they were like, um, we, we, we know. They're like, yeah, we know, but we don't think we're going to change. I was like, oh, if you're not going to change it, this is, this is an issue. And that's when I, I think they were telling me, yeah, they were, they were not interested in forking Android, or they just didn't want to. I think they wanted to make, they worked with

• 32:43Speaker 04

  Hiroshi Lockheimer and his Android team at Google on this. And I think the idea was to build something that didn't require too much tweaking of the native Android interface, things like the width of the notifications shade, for example. Because apparently if I'm thinking that if they did, then developers would have to, I don't know, do a lot of recoding, which doesn't really seem to make sense. Because shouldn't it just be like as easy as a system-wide change of the width of note? I don't really know how Android is written, so maybe that's why.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, it totally should be, but it's possible that there's like a max width and that layout elements just start just falling apart when they get beyond it. And like to fix that, they would have to fork Android, I guess.

• 33:22Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah, it baffles my mind. I think if Microsoft tried to do more, I think it's afraid that developers might have to do more work, or that it won't be able to keep it as open to other people who want to make dual screen devices in future, so.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  On a larger level here, maybe beyond just the duo, we could also maybe talk about the full two and actually, hell, any Android phone. I feel like that we've evolved in the way we talk about Android. We used to talk about skins and like it was like fair to call things a skin. There was TouchWiz. Dan, what was the one in HTC?

• 33:56Speaker 06

  Sense.

• 33:57Speaker 03

  Sense, HTC Sense, yes. God, which launched, by the way, on Windows Mobile. Thank you very much. But now it doesn't make sense to talk about these things as skins, right? They're like, they're like versions of Android. And the difference between, I don't know, Samsung's version of Android and Amazon's forked version of Android, which is, becomes FireOS. Is that a difference in kind? Or is it just like, there's like a fuzzy gray line and eventually you like, look around and all of a sudden you're not in Android land anymore?

• 34:24Speaker 04

  I mean, for me, Samsung's version is still pretty true to like, original Android. I haven't spent a lot of time with FireOS, but I almost started to think of it as a backbone for people who want to create their own OSs. And they just dress it up however they like. But basic navigation features or like how you, how apps look or whatever, they all generally look the same. And that's nice because the user doesn't have to do a lot of relearning. And I like actually some of the things Samsung's done with One UI. I mean, I don't really like the overall look and where some things are placed, but their, you know, video editor in the gallery is actually much more powerful than photos, which is, oh, photos is a garbage gallery app, but it's, it's all about the cloud, so there we go. But no, I, I, you're, I'm with you.

• 35:09Speaker 04

  I don't think of them as skins anymore. I think they're basically, Android is coming to a point where it's all very similar. We don't need to worry so much about all these minor differences between the different versions.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  Dan, how do you, how do you think about different versions of Android across different phones? You've, you've used them all.

• 35:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, I've used far too many. I think, I think Cherlynn's right. I think, you know, The point that you made that apps look the same no matter what version of Android you're using or what flavor of Android you're using is really the important point. So like, I have a Fire tablet that I use as my like night side reading tablet. And when I open Pocket on that, it looks like Pocket on my phone. And like, when I open Kindle on that, it looks like Kindle on my phone. There's no relearning I have to do. Like, the home screen's a little different, the launcher's a little different. That's really about it. And, and so like, there's that like known quantity that Android's been around for 10 plus years. People know how to use it, they want, they know how their apps expect to look. And like, you know where the notifications are gonna be, you know where multitasking is gonna be.

• 36:09Speaker 06

  And you know where like, your media player controls are gonna be. And like, that's, that's what matters. And that's what you interact with on a daily basis. And then the rest of the time, you're in apps. And so, to me, I know, I know like, a lot of, a lot of people really love the way the Pixel software works. To me, like, it's great, it's fine. So is Samsung. It's like, if there's something I like better on a Samsung phone than on, on Google's Pixel phone, I'm gonna just use the Samsung phone. Because like, basically, I'm in apps all the time. So like, the app experience is visually the same. So, uh, it, it, it's, it's, it's a much less of a, a determining factor. I mean, that said, there can be really bad interfaces. Like LG does weird things all the time with Android and like moves things around.

• 36:53Speaker 06

  It doesn't tell you why or where it is. And if you are used to using other devices, moving to like something like an LG phone might be a little jarring. Or, you know, uh, different markets, a lot of the Chinese phones have very different ideas of how app launcher should look and, and how, you know, you should navigate the interface. And so that can be a very different experience. But I think for most people who are staying in the same market, in the same location or whatever, and they're looking at new phones, like, one Android phone is very similar to another to them.

• 37:21Speaker 03

  So the other thing that's different, I don't know, with different versions of Android, or it's sort of related and it's hard to separate, is ecosystem. So there's people that live fully in like Google Suite ecosystem. There's people that live in all of Microsoft's apps and the Duo is actually a very interesting device in that regard. There's people that live only in like iCloud, Apple land. There's people that are just in a weird mix of, you know, a whole bunch of different stuff. Like, where do you, where do you live? Do you, can you, is it too much information to ask where your shit is?

• 37:52Speaker 04

  I'm a full-on Google baby. I, our company uses G Suite and yeah, I, you know, having quit Microsoft was, you know, actually pretty good because Google just does mobile apps better than Microsoft did. I feel bad for the iCloud people because I'm sorry, but that base storage for free of five gigs is nothing.

• 38:14Speaker 03

  It's so bad.

• 38:15Speaker 04

  It's pittance. It's, and, and Google at least like comes with 100 gig, well, it used to come with 100 gigs free, like unlimited photo storage and stuff like that, which is very helpful. And even when I have to pay for extra storage, it's very cheap on Google. I start at $2 a month and that gives me 100 gigs more or something. And then for the Microsoft people, I'm not very sure. Like you don't have a mobile system to really work with other than, well, Android and iOS apps are good, but it's not as baked in, not as well.

• 38:44Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah. So that, that's why the Duo is so interesting to me because when you look at Samsung or LG or, I don't know, Huawei, when they were allowed to make Android phones, TCL, they don't have an entire ecosystem of stuff. Like Samsung's got health and they like, they once upon a time had Milk Music and they were like trying to build the thing. They got a new Notes app now though, Dieter.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  The Notes app is great, yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  They got a great Notes app ecosystem. Yeah, that's true. But Microsoft has that ecosystem and, you know, you say their mobile apps aren't as well-integrated as Google's, that's true, but their mobile apps, like Outlook especially, but I think in general, like Word has always been like one of the better doc editors on mobile, especially compared to Google Docs app.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 03

  Their apps are really, really good and they have a whole ecosystem. And so looking at the Duo as like a flagship device that is Microsoft, like in the full stack is a really fascinating proposition for me.

• 39:39Speaker 04

  I, one of the comments that I kept seeing people make as almost an excuse for the Duo when the reviews came out was that some people or the fans were like, all these reviewers don't understand that this is supposed to be a business phone. And I was like, if it was a business phone, I don't think Microsoft would have went with Android. I think it went with Android because it wanted to make a mainstream or a more mainstream device. And it knows its flaws as a mobile OS maker. And yes, I agree that like, again, Microsoft's mobile apps have gotten way better and they're actually better for people who want to be productive on the go. So the Duo actually is a very interesting marriage of the two companies. I still feel like, and not to circle back to the Duo too quickly, but the proposition

• 40:21Speaker 04

  of the Duo as a business first device strikes me as just, it's not accurate.

• 40:26Speaker 06

  It's a very weird thought. Yeah, I was, well, one of the things that I've seen a lot of discussion about is that people are saying that, oh, well, Microsoft expects you to carry the Duo and another phone. And like, the Duo is not your phone. They're not calling it a phone. It's not your phone. They expect you to carry a phone to do the functional phone things. And like, yeah, that's what people did 10 years ago. They carried a BlackBerry and an iPhone because the BlackBerry was where all their email was and the iPhone was where all their life was. We've moved past that. Like, there's a reason BlackBerry doesn't exist anymore. And it's because it couldn't handle the fact that the rest of the market moved past it. And like, your iPhone or your Samsung phone or whatever smartphone that you pay for and buy is the center of your life. It's the center of your work life. It's the center of your personal life. It's the center of your entertainment. It's the

• 41:09Speaker 06

  center of your communication. It is all of that. And so like, to think of something as like, oh, it's, it's only for business. It's like, well, that doesn't really, really reflect how people use devices now and how people live with devices. There's, there's, there's no line. Like, there's, you, you move from personal use to work use and back again all the time on the same device. And so like, the, the, what we were speaking about earlier of like, is this a phone or is this not a phone? It's like, well, yes, it's a phone. It's also a tablet. It's also your email place. It's also where you're going to watch YouTube. It's also where you're going to, you know, communicate through messages. It's also where you're going to catch up with your Instagram feed. It's where you're going to post to Instagram. It's like, it's all of that. And so like, a device really that is this personal does have to kind of do all those things and do all of them to

• 41:53Speaker 06

  a certain level that is not going to bring it down from the rest, uh, bring down the rest of the experiences, is what I should say. So that, that's, that's been kind of that interesting pull between the two devices, the, the, the two perspectives. But like, I really think that most people are like, I'm gonna buy this, this is gonna be my, my device, my main device. I'm not gonna buy an iPhone to keep in my other pocket. Like, that's just not gonna happen.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  So think of it as a business device. My, my, my initial thought was if you want a phone as a business phone and, you know, you want, you need to get an Android phone and you have fourteen hundred dollars to throw around on it, you could get a Galaxy Note 20 Ultra and you got, you get, you know, a big screen that you could split screen if you want and you get all the cameras and you get a stylus and you would have to pay separately for a Surface Pen. And it just seems like it's a, it's a way better deal, but the, the, the case for the Surface Duo being a business phone, I think fundamentally comes down to whether or not you buy into the two phone concept and like getting into the flow and like feeling pretty natural having two windows because it's way easier to open up two windows

• 42:55Speaker 03

  on two different screens than it is to deal with Samsung's weird drawer and drag the app and then drag the other app, blah, blah, blah. You're just like, you open up on the screen, you want to put an app on, you open up the home screen, you tap that app and you're done. Did you ever have like the moment that Panos Panay talks about where you're in the flow?

• 43:13Speaker 04

  Not really, only because my review process doesn't involve as intense a work-related flow, right? I, I use it more for entertainment and relaxing stuff like, oh God, the hours of solitaire that I played. I played so many hours of solitaire. That was my, that was my moment when I turned it into basically a mini casino machine where I just set it up on my desk with the, with like reverse tent mode and had one screen facing me outwards and I was just like solitaire for hours. No, but like reading, you know, watching YouTube on one screen while you're replying to texts on another or keeping an eye on your Twitter feed while you're kind of crafting up a, a, a very thoughtful medium post, I guess,

• 43:57Speaker 04

  is, are some of the ways that I would have, I, I used it and it's great. It's very actually... And how, what's the word for it when you're very engrossed in something or?

• 44:07Speaker 03

  I think that's it.

• 44:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're just like, it's very, it sucks you in when you're using it in that book format. You are kind of closed off to the rest of the world when you're looking at the duo like that. But in this world that we live in, we're very rarely that way anymore because those are situations when you're sitting back commuting. And you want to get emails sort of while you're editing an article on the other screen. But we are at home all the time now, so I'm always doing that on my laptop, which is a far better machine for it. Or I'm sitting back on my couch, watching TV. I don't want to be watching, not watching the TV and looking at the duo instead. So maybe it's just the timing of it where like, if I were commuting more, I would find the duo a lot more useful. Or if I were taking planes more, traveling more.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  Dan, do you ever split screen? You use a ton of big phones all the time. Have you ever split screen now?

• 44:54Speaker 06

  The one or two instances where I split screened is I was watching a YouTube video and I had to tweet about it. And so like, I drew the little line or whatever, so I could keep the video box up and I could pull up the keyboard and tweet about it. I, I find Android's split screen UI very cumbersome to use.

• 45:12Speaker 03

  Well, wait, wait a minute, wait, which Android?

• 45:15Speaker 06

  Well, like, I mean, so, so, so, so not the duo. So like, single, single screen devices, even if they've got big screens. I just wrapped up a review of the Tab S7. Big screen devices, obviously. Android has like that, if you're in the Android mode, you can like, do the same thing you can do on the fold. I never used it in the Android mode. Like, I, I never did that, that split screening because it's very cumbersome to use. And, and on a phone, I think that like you are really, even if you've got a big phone, even if you've got a Note 20, you're still cutting the screen in half or maybe in, in one third and two thirds. And there's not so much you can do there. I think the duo is super interesting in that you do have two real sized screens that you don't have to do, jump through a bunch of hoops to get two things open on.

• 45:59Speaker 06

  And so like, if I wanted to keep a YouTube video on one side and tweet on the other, like that is a thing that could easily be done without having to like, really think about it and like, sit down. And, and I have this problem with the iPad too. Whenever I need to multitask, I have to like, think about it and like, how do I get these two apps to show side by side before I edit this document? And I gotta like, do the gestures and move things around and stuff like that. Whereas Microsoft is very easy to pick up and understand and straightforward, at least from a concept level.

• 46:29Speaker 03

  So it seems like Microsoft is gonna keep making these. They're they seem committed. Like the knock on the surface line in general is always the first one's bad. The second one, you can see that they know what to do, but they haven't done it yet. The third one, they get it right. So, okay, what do you want them to do on the next one? Well, we'll talk about the ideal third one later. Like when they fix everything, that'll be the third one. But the second one, where we know they're not gonna get everything right, but they like hit the important stuff, what do you want them to fix next or do next?

• 46:55Speaker 04

  Fix that goddamn camera.

• 46:58Speaker 04

  The camera is important, I think, just to make it work well and the way it should and the way that people expect. Ideally, and I think we sort of alluded to this earlier on, but because it's so thin, there are certain things that they couldn't really make happen. So NFC isn't in there. I don't think that NFC is super important, but it is to some people who make a lot of contactless payments.

• 47:20Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  Also, I don't know if you noticed this during your review, but when you watch a video in tablet mode, or even if just as book mode, the speaker is only on the left side.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  So it's a little bit off. And that would really improve the tablet experience when you're watching videos if they were able to add a second speaker to the right. But I understand they have a limited space to work with. I mean, this thing is weighted so well, like it feels so good to hold that maybe I feel like this is a minor complaint. But if they could figure out some magic for the second edition, that would be good.

• 47:53Speaker 03

  Cherlynn, you you mentioned earlier that it kind of sucks as a phone.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:57Speaker 03

  What could they do to make it better as a phone? If this really is is a single device that you have and it works as your phone and other things. What could what do you think they could do to improve that?

• 48:07Speaker 04

  I think the width of it, I don't know, it's hard. I like the size, but the width of it is really getting in the way of it being like a single screen device as a phone. The the camera I mentioned is another thing. I know, Dan, maybe you don't think of it this way, but I think of my smartphone as my camera. I do. I take a lot of photos. So that's that's one thing they really need to improve to. Otherwise, I mean, that that thinness is great. So if they just made it a bit more narrow, the software is fine for a phone because it is just Android at this point. So I almost, yeah, and there's a lot of things I don't think Microsoft itself can do alone. I think that there's a lot of things they need to work on with Android and developers. Like Gboard needs to work better because I don't, I'm not a big fan of SwiftKey.

• 48:50Speaker 04

  And SwiftKey is the only keyboard that will understand this device right now. So those are some things that are on my wishlist. I'm not sure who will get them, though.

• 48:59Speaker 03

  Well, so like my wishlist is relatively similar. What's interesting is, you know, this thing has got a Snapdragon 855, which I think is fine. I think they should have put more RAM in it. But when we talk about speeds and feeds and just like, they like, all the, you want stereo speakers, you want a better camera. Like, that's all stuff that they could just do. But then will they be able to do it and maintain that thin form factor is just a big, open question. Same thing with 5G, like, I don't care about 5G now. I might care in like two years and presumably if you're going to spend this much money on this thing, you're going to want to keep it for two years. So like, that's like a tough one for me at this moment. I think in terms of its width, I would be fine with it being a little bit narrower, a little bit taller, but not too much. Because I think the fold goes the opposite way and it's way too tall.

• 49:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 03

  What they should do is they should have like a pop out handle that you can actually hold with one hand. So the thing would look like a ping pong paddle, right? And then you've got one handed use because you could just, you know.

• 49:51Speaker 04

  It's more stable.

• 49:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I want in the Surface Duo 2.

• 49:55Speaker 04

  Pinos should pay you for that idea, Dieter.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  I deserve it. I deserve all sorts of money for that. By the way, how insufferable is the Duo 2 going to be? Because it's Duo and then 2. Just think about it.

• 50:07Speaker 04

  It's 2O, 2O. I don't know. I...

• 50:10Speaker 03

  Two screens a second time. The redo of.

• 50:14Speaker 04

  The do-over.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  Oh, man. Oh, there's your headlines. Well, it's already out in the world. I can't use it now.

• 50:25Speaker 04

  Well, we're going to come up with something. I love how Dieter, you and Michael Fisher had the same headline for your Galaxy Z Fold 2 reviews.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  Double troubles. Yeah, although I put an S on mine because I was saying it's double, there's troubles anyway. Okay, well, I think that is probably enough for now on the Duo. We're obviously going to have another version to look at. There's going to be complaining about Android fragmentation. There's all sorts of stuff coming. But you know, we've also just like, this season is just getting started. Like, there's so much more stuff coming.

• 50:51Speaker 04

  I'm a zombie talking to you guys right now. I'm dead and reanimated for this Vergecast. But it is, it is a relentless product cycle.

• 50:58Speaker 03

  It's a relentless product cycle and it's it's made a little bit harder because a lot of us are working from home. And so it's hard to not be able to go to the event and like talk to people and like hold the thing and whatever. So it's just, it's a lot. And so we're going to keep doing some of these podcasts where we are going to go behind the scenes in the reviews. We're also going to keep living this very difficult life of reviewing new gadgets all the time. Sherlin, thanks so much for joining us. Where can people find you?

• 51:24Speaker 04

  I'm at Sherlin Lowe on Twitter. And shout out, we also do a podcast on Engadget called the Engadget Podcast that I co-host.

• 51:30Speaker 03

  Check it out. Go subscribe to that. Dan, where can people find you? I am DC Seifert on Twitter, and sometimes I show up on the Vergecast. There it is. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. I am back on. We will catch you next Tuesday.

• 51:47Speaker 01

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