Harry v Wills | The Fab Four | 2

Harry meets his dream woman, but Wills is less impressed. Suddenly, this "spare's" love life becomes a constitutional - and brotherly - crisis. Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:07Matt Forde?

  This episode contains strong language. Listener discretion is advised.

• 0:13Alice Levine?

  I'm so glad you're here, Matt. I do need a little bit of help, if that's okay.

• 0:17Matt Forde?

  Yeah.

• 0:18Alice Levine?

  I'm going on a first date and I've sort of run out of ideas. I need something cool, fun, like I've made an effort, but it's also kind of cash.

• 0:26Matt Forde?

  Yeah, you don't want to appear to have made too much effort.

• 0:28Alice Levine?

  Exactly.

• 0:29Matt Forde?

  Okay, Vegas.

• 0:31Alice Levine?

  Does that just seem a little bit flash, potentially?

• 0:34Matt Forde?

  Good point. Good for the Maldives. Two weeks in a luxurious water bungalow. Paradise, all-inclusive, and you get to swim with reef sharks, turtles and stingrays.

• 0:45Alice Levine?

  I think for me, that might be a little on the intense side. What did you and your wife do for your first date?

• 0:50Matt Forde?

  We went on the week sheave, had a couple of pints of Best and then had kebab meat and chips in the car park.

• 0:56Matt Forde?

  Fifteenth of May, twenty eighteen. Nottingham Cottage, Kensington Palace. Meghan watches the seamstress at her feet, placing pins in the bottom of her ivory silk wedding gown. She feels a rush of excitement as she thinks of where she'll be in five days' time. Walking down the aisle at St George's Chapel, Harry waiting for her at the altar.

• 1:21Matt Forde?

  She's brought out of the daydream by the buzz of her phone.

• 1:25Matt Forde?

  Meghan answers to the palace's head of communications. Meghan, why didn't you tell us about your dad? What about him? It's just broken on TMZ that he had a heart attack six days ago and is in hospital recovering. I thought you'd... No, that's not true. I don't know where they've got that from. It came directly from an interview. He says he's not coming to the wedding. Meghan feels sweat bead on her brow as she hangs up. This doesn't make sense. Sure, things have been strained with her father lately. But he would have told her this, wouldn't he? She dismisses the seamstress, then scrolls down to her father's number.

• 2:06Alice Levine?

  Things change, as I'm sure we will learn over the years in the royal family. But for generations, royals have been dismissing the seamstress, haven't they?

• 2:14Matt Forde?

  It's an important part of royal life, that as much as the monarchy must move and change with the times, some things must remain. It's what the British public expects.

• 2:24Matt Forde?

  A knot forms in her stomach as she's met with his voicemail greeting. Dad, it's me. Please call me. If you need help, I'm here. Just call. She wipes away a tear. She's about to call Harry when... Meghan? Meghan feels a rush of relief as Kate pushes the door open and steps inside. If anyone can understand her predicament, it's her soon-to-be sister-in-law. Hey, I'm so glad you're here. Did the comms team tell you? But Kate cuts straight in. Charlotte's dress needs another fitting. It's way too loose around the waist.

• 3:05Matt Forde?

  Meghan blinks, thrown by her curt manner. But she forces herself to stay calm. I'm sure it's not that bad. She's really upset, Meg. It needs to be sorted. And you haven't confirmed arrangements for the Page Boys' party yet. Meghan feels her spine stiffen. She eyeballs Kate, fighting back tears. I have bigger things to deal with right now. My dad's... I'm struggling here. Meghan trails off, emotion overtaking her. Kate shuffles awkwardly. Look, I know you've been having some family issues, and we all sympathize. But there are still certain protocols. I'm aware of the protocols. Believe me.

• 3:49Matt Forde?

  Her voice cracks. To Meghan's amazement, Kate just looks angry. Just sort it out, please. Meghan watches as Kate turns on her heel and breezes out. She's suddenly overwhelmed by everything that's happening. The constant vitriol in the press, her father, the lack of support from royals like Kate. She falls to the floor, gasping for breath. Catching her reflection in the mirror, hot tears roll down her cheeks. She's dressed as the perfect bride, but this is no fairy tale. It's more like a horror movie. The family she's about to marry into is cold and rigid, with impossible expectations.

• 4:32Matt Forde?

  For the first time, Meghan's not sure if she will ever fit in. Or if she's about to make the worst mistake of her life.

• 4:51Speaker 02

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• 5:08Speaker 03

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• 5:40Matt Forde?

  From Audible Originals, I'm Matt Ford.

• 5:42Alice Levine?

  And I'm Alice Levine.

• 5:43Matt Forde?

  And this is British Scandal.

• 5:57Matt Forde?

  So Alice, we've spent a bit of time now with Prince William and Prince Harry. We've seen them grow up in their own unique, unusual circumstances, obviously deeply affected by the manner of their mother's death. And they've both dealt with it very differently. Do you feel like you can relate to one more than the other?

• 6:11Alice Levine?

  Well, obviously come on to the privilege of their position. But of course, at this point, we're really feeling sympathetic for two young men who are, you know, traumatized and in mourning because they're having to deal with their mother's death in the public eye. I don't think either of them have the emotional toolkit to deal with that. And it really feels to me like both of them could do with a lot of therapy very, very quickly. But they were kind of bumping along, even though they're these really different characters. So you've got Harry, who feels like he's not allowed to express his emotions in the way that he wants. It must be so painful to not be able to say, I miss her, I'm sad, and to try and kind of keep that all inside. William, you might say, because he's the older brother, has

• 6:56Alice Levine?

  More quickly and effectively developed the classic stiff upper lip and is kind of just swallowing it all down. So you might see Harry as the more relatable one and the more human one. But I kind of understand why William is in that position of default pragmatism.

• 7:12Matt Forde?

  Yes, we ended the last episode with the two of them really moving in different directions. Will's is with Kate and he's cozied up and seems happy. Harry is on his own and really in a spiral of despair, particularly after going to Paris and travelling through the tunnel where his mum died. So is there a way back to it being the days of the two of them against the world?

• 7:29Alice Levine?

  I think no matter how much Harry wants that, that just can't happen. Obviously Kate's already in the mix, so that's changed the dynamic. We've had the whole episode with Camilla and them rejecting her and then Will's kind of betraying Harry and saying, no, no, no, we need to accept her, that's sort of part of our duty. And Harry is lonely, he feels out on his own and he's looking for love. So I think there's going to be another disruption to the dynamic because I have a sense, spoiler alert, that this episode, we might feel the true impact of Meghan Markle.

• 8:00Matt Forde?

  We might indeed. This is episode two, The Fab Four.

• 8:06Matt Forde?

  Two years earlier, 1st of July 2016, Kensington Palace.

• 8:13Matt Forde?

  Harry shuffles through the wrought iron side gate, grocery bag in hand. He beelines for the grand Georgian façade of apartment 1A, William's family home, feeling a rush of sentimentality. Things have been so strained between them lately, so distant. But this is the perfect moment to reconnect. He pulls an old Lion King DVD from his jacket. He's looking forward to surprising him with it on the day they always mark together, mummy's birthday.

• 8:44Matt Forde?

  Is that the most appropriate thing to watch? Because it's the death of a parent and then a rivalry between two relatives that gets pretty, pretty flipping nasty.

• 8:53Alice Levine?

  And there's a stampede. So yeah, it just doesn't feel like the right mood.

• 8:58Matt Forde?

  He stops sharply at the sight of Willie walking a distinctive silhouette through the door. Granny. A two-year-old Prince George grasps at her gloved hand, with daughter Charlotte toddling behind. Has Willie even remembered the date? Harry's startled by a tap on the shoulder. He turns to find one of the palace caretakers behind him. Can I help you with something, sir? Harry looks down at his bag in his hand, now painfully self-conscious about the ready meal and four-pack it contains. Uh, no.

• 9:33Alice Levine?

  Might be a Charlie Bingham's, mightn't it?

• 9:35Matt Forde?

  Oh, it probably is, yeah. It would be a posh ready meal, but still, you do expect better of the royals, and in a way, I want them to be doing better than ready meals. I'm like, if you're gonna live that life, go for it.

• 9:45Alice Levine?

  But also, who's taught them to cook?

• 9:47Matt Forde?

  Oh my god, even the butler would have to microwave it for them.

• 9:50Alice Levine?

  Can you imagine, as a grown person, being shown how to use the microwave?

• 9:53Matt Forde?

  So I peel the lid back, but then I peel the lid... Why don't I just take the lid off? No, it has to stay over it, it contains some of the heat.

• 10:00Alice Levine?

  How many fork holes? You go by vibe.

• 10:03Matt Forde?

  He quickly turns and trudges back to his much smaller cottage. Inside, he pierces the plastic on his tikka masala and tosses it into the microwave. Then he slumps in front of the TV, flicking to a Friends repeat. He mimics Chandler, parrot fashion. I'm coming up 30 years behind him, but the stops are all the same. Bitter Town, Aloneville, Hermit Junction. He sighs to himself, takes his phone out, begins scrolling mindlessly through Instagram. He sees so many gorgeous women, but who wants to go out with a washed-up, almost middle-aged spare? He's just about to put his phone down when he spots something that catches his attention. A friend with her arm around a woman he's not seen before,

• 10:48Matt Forde?

  framed with a filter giving her floppy dog ears. He studies her sparkling eyes and wide smile. She's beautiful, but it's more than that. Something deeper, even familiar about her. He messages his pal. Who's that?

• 11:05Matt Forde?

  The reply comes quickly. Meghan, she's an actress, in town for a few days and single. Want me to hook you up? Harry stares at his phone. Every instinct screams caution, but for some inexplicable reason, he knows that if he doesn't take this chance, he'll regret it for the rest of his life. Could this happening on mummy's birthday be a sign? So before he can stop himself, he types: "Why not?"

• 11:39Matt Forde?

  Two days later, Dean Street Townhouse, London.

• 11:45Matt Forde?

  Meghan Markle weaves between the leather armchairs and low tables of the exclusive Soho Members Lounge. She settles into a maroon tub chair in the corner and flags down a passing waiter. Ice water, please. Still. Meghan checks her reflection in her phone. She's relieved to see her long brown hair has remained frizz-free despite the city's humidity. She brushes down her navy jacket, which she's paired with a simple white t-shirt, then tries to steady her hand as she lifts the water glass to her lips. Meghan opens a text. Running late. Car stuck in traffic. Her nerves turn to irritation as she tosses her phone onto the table. This was a bad idea.

• 12:29Matt Forde?

  Since her brief marriage ended bitterly three years ago, she's sworn off men and vowed to concentrate on her role in the TV drama Suits. But when her friend asked if she'd go on a date with Prince Harry, how could she say no?

• 12:43Alice Levine?

  Have you seen Suits?

• 12:44Matt Forde?

  I haven't.

• 12:45Alice Levine?

  It's quite a soapy, legal drama. On the softer side, on the fun side, and she plays Rachel Zane, an impressive, young, paralegal who's working her way to the top.

• 12:58Matt Forde?

  You've actually made it sound quite good.

• 13:00Alice Levine?

  It's very watchable.

• 13:01Matt Forde?

  And is she a good actor?

• 13:02Alice Levine?

  She's fine, yeah. I guess it's not a role that would be given to Daniel Day-Lewis. There's not loads to work with.

• 13:10Matt Forde?

  Twenty minutes later, still eyeing the door, Meghan wishes she hadn't bothered. Her phone pings again. Still stuck. Sorry. Meghan starts gathering up her things. This was a mistake. What the hell could she have in common with some Downton Abbey caricature who can't even turn up on time? But as she rises from her chair, she hears a breathless voice above her. I'm so sorry. Please don't go. Meghan looks up to find Harry, face flushed, red hair dishevelled. The traffic was crazy. I know this must have been... Seen, but I swear I'd never. It's okay, breathe. She sits back down. Harry smiles at her, slumps in the chair opposite. He orders a beer, then leans forward. I have a confession.

• 13:56Matt Forde?

  Meghan locks eyes with him, concerned. I've never actually seen suits. Meghan splutters a laugh, sees a relieved smile appear on Harry's face, an impish twinkle in his eyes. She hadn't expected naughtiness.

• 14:11Alice Levine?

  So naughty.

• 14:12Matt Forde?

  As they start to chat, she finds herself warming up more and more. He hardly speaks about the royal family, briefly mentioning his brother. We don't speak as much as we used to. We still work together on conservation projects, sometimes. The hours slip by.

• 14:28Alice Levine?

  Yeah, well, with that kind of chat, I mean, you would be barely looking at your watch.

• 14:32Matt Forde?

  Must be odd going on a date with a royal, because you know so much about them.

• 14:37Alice Levine?

  God, this is such new information, so cool, tell me more.

• 14:40Matt Forde?

  Right, so if, that's a lot on the first day, but let's say we were to get married. I would then be, would I be a princess, is that how it works? And do you feel like you're running out of time to find someone?

• 14:52Alice Levine?

  Let's talk about something else, talk to me about duchies and duke dims.

• 14:55Matt Forde?

  Yeah, and can I just, I'm just gonna take notes.

• 14:58Matt Forde?

  That does include tax breaks, right, and land. Cool.

• 15:03Alice Levine?

  Another ice water, please.

• 15:05Matt Forde?

  The next thing Meghan knows, the room's dim lights brighten sharply. Meghan looks around to see the place is practically empty. Oh my god, it's nearly midnight, I have an early flight. Can I see you again? Meghan quickly looks at her diary, as Harry pulls out his own iCal. I'm in Toronto for three weeks filming, maybe after that? I'm in Botswana by then. Meghan sighs disappointed, but then she sees a grin form on Harry's face. Come with me. Meghan blinks. To Botswana? What?

• 15:45Alice Levine?

  I'm sorry, this is a big no for me, second date in Botswana? I don't care if you're the Prince of England.

• 15:52Matt Forde?

  Yes, and although this may sound mad to the rest of us, this is not the first date that Harry has taken to Botswana. Meghan would actually be the fourth woman that he has taken to Botswana on a date.

• 16:03Alice Levine?

  Stop it, this is his move.

• 16:05Matt Forde?

  It's his classic second date move.

• 16:09Matt Forde?

  Harry leans forward, looking totally serious.

• 16:12Speaker 04

  I could show you the conservation work we're doing.

• 16:15Matt Forde?

  Meghan's head spins. She would never usually be so impulsive. But looking into those eyes, she sees only hope and nerves and utter sincerity. Meghan decides to throw caution to the wind with this prince charming and see where it takes her.

• 16:36Matt Forde?

  One month later, Meno Akena, Botswana.

• 16:41Matt Forde?

  Harry can't keep his eyes off Meghan as she stares in awe at the giraffe silhouetted against the amber sky. He grins. He still can't believe she's here, sharing this with him. Spotting a new shape in the distance, he leans in closer and points.

• 16:58Speaker 04

  That's a red lechwe antelope. They're very rare, only found in specific wetland areas.

• 17:05Matt Forde?

  Harry's thrown everything at making the trip perfect since they arrived this morning. He's even done extensive research on the wildlife in an effort to impress.

• 17:14Speaker 04

  If you look at the markings, you'll see...

• 17:17Matt Forde?

  But he trails off, as Meghan's attention instead focuses on a small group of park rangers, setting up equipment at their watering hole. She shouts to the driver. Can we stop? Harry inwardly curses, as Meghan jumps out and introduces herself to the group. She crouches down to chat to a little boy. What's your notebook for? It's for the lelephants. I love lelephants too. Can you show me? Harry feels a lump form in his throat. Meghan's ease with the child is achingly familiar, the kind of thing mummy used to do. He swallows as Meghan returns from chatting to the family.

• 17:59Matt Forde?

  His family are documenting elephant migration patterns. Would it be okay if I asked them to join us for dinner? Harry's mind flashes to the five-course candlelit meal he's planned, followed by a couples massage. But seeing the light in Meghan's eyes.

• 18:15Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 18:19Matt Forde?

  By the time dinner's done and they head to their campsite, it's late.

• 18:24Matt Forde?

  Meghan pulls a blanket from the tent and places it down near the fire that's been built for them. She pats the space next to her, grinning. "Tell me what this place means to you, why it's so special."

• 18:38Alice Levine?

  "It's not that special, really."

• 18:40Matt Forde?

  "As I always say on the second date."

• 18:44Alice Levine?

  "I'll give you the PDF, it's quicker."

• 18:46Speaker 04

  "I first came here a few weeks after my mum died. It felt, I dunno, like here I had so much to look at, it got me out of my head."

• 18:56Matt Forde?

  Harry glances over at Meghan, sees her wipe a tear from her cheek.

• 19:01Speaker 04

  "She was really into conservation projects like the one we talked about at dinner. I want to do more, but Will's has bagged Africa as his thing."

• 19:09Alice Levine?

  "Why can't you both have it?"

• 19:11Matt Forde?

  Harry blinks, startled by her directness. He chuckles.

• 19:17Speaker 04

  "It doesn't really work like that."

• 19:19Matt Forde?

  Meghan takes Harry's hand. "So change it, shake things up a bit."

• 19:25Alice Levine?

  "I've got this new idea. Why don't you guys lay claim to a place that you have no business in being? An absolute first for British rulers, let's just throw the rulebook out the window."

• 19:36Matt Forde?

  Harry grins, the rebel in him stirring for the first time in years. He loves this girl's hot spa, and he's been looking for a way to get closer to Will's again. He takes a deep breath and shuffles closer, as he leans in, kisses Meghan. All the fears of the last few years seem to melt away. Harry starts to let his imagination run wild. Him and Meghan going for cosy dinners with Willie and Kate at Kensington Palace, their children playing together. He's met the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with. Now, he can't wait to introduce her to... The family.

• 20:22Matt Forde?

  October 2016. Apartment 1A Kensington Palace.

• 20:28Alice Levine?

  It's very man of the people to live in a flat, isn't it?

• 20:30Matt Forde?

  1A makes it sound small, but this is a 20-room, four-floor property with its own walled garden.

• 20:39Matt Forde?

  William walks down the bright hallway and pulls open the door to see his grinning brother beside a pretty petite woman in jeans and a slouchy sweater. His cheeks redden. He feels overdressed in his iron chinos and crisp white shirt. Wills, I've heard so much about you. William's about to reach his hand out when she steps forward and pulls him in for a hug. His body stiffens. Over her shoulder, Harry eyeballs him and mouths relax.

• 21:10Speaker 04

  Um, I managed to rustle up some tea.

• 21:14Matt Forde?

  William mushes them in, picks up a nearby jar full of biscuits.

• 21:18Speaker 04

  Hobnob.

• 21:20Matt Forde?

  Megan splutters a laugh. A what now?

• 21:24Speaker 04

  They're Harold's favourites.

• 21:26Matt Forde?

  I try to limit sugar, but I'd love a coffee. Not a great start.

• 21:31Alice Levine?

  I'm imagining her saying, "Do you have any watermelon dusted with cinnamon?" That's actually one of her favourite snacks from her show.

• 21:38Matt Forde?

  I like to individually wrap each piece of watermelon in a little pouch and then kiss it. William forces a smile as he rummages in the cupboard for his cafetiere. A cocker spaniel bounds in and launches himself at Megan.

• 21:51Speaker 05

  Well, hello there, gorgeous.

• 21:54Matt Forde?

  As the dog licks Megan's beaming face, William softens.

• 21:58Speaker 04

  That's Lupo. He's very discerning. He clearly likes you.

• 22:03Matt Forde?

  He watches them settle down at the kitchen table, and as Megan starts to chat away, William notes Lupo isn't the only lovesick puppy in the room. He's never seen Harry look at anyone the way he gazes at this girl. It's adorable and unnerving.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  Harry tells me you went to Botswana on your second date.

• 22:23Speaker 05

  I've never heard about him taking anyone there. Wink, wink.

• 22:28Matt Forde?

  But also it is in Africa, and that is mine.

• 22:33Matt Forde?

  Harry nods enthusiastically as Meghan beams at him, like it's the most natural thing in the world.

• 22:38Speaker 04

  It got us thinking. There's so much more Haz could do over there. The platform he has, the access.

• 22:46Matt Forde?

  William's smile stiffens. His brother's known this girl for a month, and she's reorganising his duties.

• 22:53Speaker 04

  Uh, well, perhaps Haz and I can put our heads together.

• 22:58Matt Forde?

  The moment Meghan's gone, Harry stares at Will's expectant.

• 23:02Speaker 04

  She's amazing, right?

• 23:04Matt Forde?

  William pauses. He knows he needs to choose his words carefully.

• 23:10Speaker 04

  She seems great.

• 23:12Matt Forde?

  He stops when Harry sighs.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  But? It's such early days. She's very American, and what do you really know about her?

• 23:21Matt Forde?

  He sees Harry roll his eyes.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  She's kind. She's smart. She cares about the same things I do. What else do I need to know? I just think, taking your time.

• 23:33Matt Forde?

  Harry snaps back.

• 23:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, 'cause that'd make Waitikatie so happy. I'm not having a bloody ten-year engagement. Engagement?

• 23:42Matt Forde?

  Watching Harry scowl and grab a hobnob, William realises he's handled this wrong.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Listen, I'm sorry if I overstepped. Meghan's great.

• 23:52Matt Forde?

  He's relieved to see Harry relax a little, his smile returning as he reaches for another biscuit. He really does like Meghan, and she's clearly devoted to Harold. But she also has no sense of how their world works, and a confidence bordering on cocky. Will's realises the best way to protect his brother and the family's reputation is to keep a careful eye on this new girl and help her avoid any missteps. If Meghan is going to stay, he'll just have to do all he can to help her become... ...one of them.

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• 25:40Matt Forde?

  November 2016, Nottingham Cottage.

• 25:45Matt Forde?

  Harry takes a sip of his Bordeaux and grins at Willie, who shakes his head in mock shame as Kate makes pleading eyes at Meghan. Oh, one more, please. Harry watches Meghan as she holds her hands up in defeat, then instantly transforms into a hard-nosed paralegal. I don't get lucky, Mike. I make my own luck. Harry swells with pride as Kate claps delightedly. He had no idea she was a suit superfan. She's been asking Meghan to do her best Rachel Zane-isms all evening. He watches as Meghan grabs Kate by the shoulders. Go on, try it. To Harry's delight, a tipsy Kate clears her throat

• 26:29Matt Forde?

  and tries to adopt a loyally look. Ah, I make my own luck. Meghan and Kate both collapse into giggles. Harry winks at Willie as he clears the table. He can tell his brother is enjoying the easy atmosphere as much as he is.

• 26:46Matt Forde?

  From the kitchen, Harry watches William answer his phone and head his way.

• 26:50Speaker 04

  Palace comms have been trying to get hold of you.

• 26:53Matt Forde?

  Harry glances at his own phone on the side, sees several missed calls. He takes the phone from William and speaks to the palace's head of communications. The express printed photos of you and Meghan leaving a Halloween party in Toronto. It's out. Harry's stomach lurches. He'd hoped to keep his relationship quiet a bit longer.

• 27:14Speaker 04

  I'll, um, I'll call you back.

• 27:18Matt Forde?

  Harry looks through the doorway, takes in Meghan's laughter. He turns to see a knowing look in his brother's eyes.

• 27:25Speaker 04

  It'll be okay.

• 27:27Matt Forde?

  Harry's never felt so grateful for his support as they head back into the other room. He clears his throat.

• 27:33Speaker 04

  Ah, uh, the news has broken about me and Meg.

• 27:39Matt Forde?

  Harry rushes over to a scared-looking Meghan as she immediately takes out her phone and starts scrolling. Harry stares at an express photo of himself in a Mad Max costume, smiling beside Meghan in a camouflage top and trapper hat. Harry's New Girl: Everything We Need to Know About Suit Star Meghan Markle.

• 27:59Alice Levine?

  Now, this is nice to see. Not a fantastic track record with fancy dress.

• 28:03Matt Forde?

  That's right. Mad Max is the most moderate individual Prince Harry has ever dressed up as. But this is Tom Hardy's actual outfit from the film. It's not just some fancy dress version. This is Hollywood-level fancy dress. William scans the headlines.

• 28:19Speaker 04

  It's all positive.

• 28:21Matt Forde?

  Harry stays silent. He knows how quickly it can turn. He pulls Willie aside.

• 28:28Speaker 04

  I think maybe I should get out on the front foot. Have a meeting with editors. Issue clear boundaries. Christ, no. You'll just rile them. So what? I sit back and do nothing while those vultures start to pick her apart? Like they did Mummy?

• 28:43Matt Forde?

  Harry stays on Will's.

• 28:45Speaker 04

  I think you're underestimating Meg has.

• 28:48Matt Forde?

  Harry manages a small smile.

• 28:51Speaker 04

  She's well-known in the States. She's had media training. Christ, more than us it seems.

• 28:57Matt Forde?

  Harry thinks about that. Meghan is at ease in front of the cameras.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  Maybe we could harness that. Put her front and centre of one of the charity initiatives we discussed. Make them see how committed she is.

• 29:10Matt Forde?

  William nods enthusiastically.

• 29:12Speaker 04

  Absolutely. We can sit down with the comms teams tomorrow, all four of us. Come up with an action plan. You're not alone in this. We'll work it out together.

• 29:23Matt Forde?

  Harry goes back to Meghan, energised, especially when he sees Kate put a reassuring arm around her. With her and Willie by their side, he's sure he and Meg will soon have the British press eating out of their hands.

• 29:43Matt Forde?

  Two weeks later, Guards Polo Club wins a great park. Harry's horse churns up divots of turf as he thunders across the field, and with a perfectly timed swing of his mallet, sends the ball sailing through the goalposts. Get it!

• 30:01Matt Forde?

  Harry looks at a grimacing William on the opposing team. He pats his brother's shoulder good-naturedly as they head back towards the clubhouse.

• 30:09Speaker 04

  Dinner tonight? Meghan and I were thinking we should go over some ideas.

• 30:13Matt Forde?

  Harry's delighted when Willie nods. These last couple of weeks have gone better than he could ever have imagined. With Harry following his brother's advice and confirming his relationship via an authorised palace leak, Harry's even shared information on a couple of projects they all intend to work on together in Africa. Harry takes his phone out to find a message from the palace's comms team with a link to a MailOnline story. He grins, assuming it's another article referring to them all as the Fab Four.

• 30:43Alice Levine?

  How embarrassing. We hate it when they do that.

• 30:45Matt Forde?

  But a chill runs down his spine as he reads the headline. Harry's Girl Is Almost Straight Out Of Compton. Then the subhead, Gang Scarred Home Of Her Mother Revealed.

• 30:56Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, Harold. It's disgusting.

• 30:59Matt Forde?

  Harry feels the bitter taste of bile hit his throat.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  It's just like with mommy.

• 31:05Matt Forde?

  He throws down his polo mallet, starts striding towards the clubhouse. Willie has stepped behind.

• 31:11Speaker 04

  I'm going to speak out. I can't ignore. Don't.

• 31:15Matt Forde?

  William snatches his phone away. Harry stops in his tracks, shocked.

• 31:20Speaker 04

  It's racist garbage. Trust me. I've been dealing with this shit longer than you.

• 31:26Matt Forde?

  Harry glares at Wills, whose eyes are pleading. He sighs deeply and nods. But when Harry returns to Nottingham Cottage, a tear-stained Meghan is staring at the story on her laptop. It's all about my mom's skin colour, her background. I never imagined that... Meghan shakes her hair, disbelieving. And Harry feels his face flush with shame. How could he let William talk him out of dealing with this as he should?

• 31:55Alice Levine?

  There's so much that is wrong with this. I mean, factually, it's wrong. She's not from a poor part of LA. She was privately educated. But on a more important level, everything that they're printing is just rooted in stereotypes and bigotry. I mean, this is the start of the vitriol, isn't it? But it goes on to snowball. I think a lot of it is shrouded in this objection to her being, you know, a divorcee, American, sort of new age and Californian. She's not one of us. She's not what the Royals are. She's an outsider. But I think, as we know now, a lot of that was just a mask for being horribly, horribly racist.

• 32:27Matt Forde?

  It's something people say, yeah, just something about her. I can't put my finger on it. I think you can. You just don't dare say it. That evening, Harry grips Meg's hand as they watch the 10 o'clock news. In the unprecedented palace statement, the predicament of Prince Harry's new girlfriend is compared to the treatment of his late mother Diana. Harry texts Willie. Have you seen it? Three dots appear, then vanish. Man, that's a horrible feeling.

• 32:56Alice Levine?

  Oh, it's horrible. You may be a royal, but you are not protected from the three dots disappearing.

• 33:01Matt Forde?

  Harry's chest tightens as doubt creeps in. He opens Twitter. Good on ya, Harry. The press can stick their cameras where the sun don't shine. Diana all over again. Good luck, M and H. Hashtag leave Harry Meghan alone. Harry's eyes linger on that last line. He loves Willie, respects him. But there's more than one way of handling this. And it's not just him anymore. It's Harry and Meghan, M and H. So he's not going to stick to the stuffy rules of the past. From now on, he's going to take a leaf out of his mum's book and do things his way.

• 33:46Matt Forde?

  February 2018, BAFTA, central London. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge.

• 33:58Matt Forde?

  William gives Kate a reassuring smile as he steps onto the stage, squinting against the flashing cameras.

• 34:06Matt Forde?

  And Prince Harry and his fiancee, Meghan Markle. Wills can't help but whistle at the louder cheers greeting Harry and Meg.

• 34:18Matt Forde?

  Kate is leading today's media launch of the charity they've all been working on for the last year. And Wills was hoping it would be a chance for her to outshine Meg. She might not say it, but he knows his pregnant wife has been hurt by headlines comparing her frumpy look to Meg's effortless glamour.

• 34:35Alice Levine?

  It's a tale as old as time, isn't it, pitting two women against each other? They love to do that.

• 34:39Matt Forde?

  Yeah, whatever side you're on, obviously what Meghan is going through with the racial element is far more severe, but if you're Kate, still not nice to be talked about in this way. William leans in and whispers in Kate's ear. You look beautiful. You've got. Wills glows with pride as she launches into her intro. These issues mean a lot to all of us. That's why the purpose of the Royal Foundation is to offer support in all kinds of mental health journeys. To William's despair, Meghan jumps in. It's also about women. They need to feel empowered to use their voice. William can tell Kate's rafta smile is hiding her irritation as Meghan continues.

• 35:24Matt Forde?

  I've been campaigning for this for so long. A bigger change. He tries to stop his frustration growing at her hijacking Kate's airtime, not to mention veering wildly off topic. He's relieved when the hostess intervenes. So William, Harry, what was the last thing you disagreed on? How did you resolve it?

• 35:45Matt Forde?

  William stiffens as he looks at Harry. His brother's been so outspoken this last year, he can never be sure of what he might say next. He leans into the microphone, but Harry beats him to it.

• 35:57Speaker 04

  I'm not sure we have resolved it yet.

• 36:01Matt Forde?

  William squirms. As soon as they leave the stage, he whips his mic off, drops the friendly facade.

• 36:08Speaker 04

  What disagreement haven't we resolved yet? You tell me, you've been in a mood all week.

• 36:13Matt Forde?

  Wills sees Kate reach his side, her eyes urging caution.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  I heard about your request to granny, about the beard.

• 36:22Matt Forde?

  William's anger grows as Harry chuckles and turns to a confused Meghan.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  He's sulking because I've been told I can keep my beard for our wedding, when he was ordered to shave before marrying Kate.

• 36:34Matt Forde?

  Aren't you being a little bit petty? William's face burns as he tries to gather a response, but now Kate beats him to it. You said the same when I confronted you about using my fashion contacts.

• 36:48Alice Levine?

  Oh no, the floodgates are open now.

• 36:50Matt Forde?

  Yes, and this is very similar to the beard rivalry. So, prior to the royal family, Meghan would get her outfits from Erdem. But once she got involved in the royal family, Kate got first dibs on the outfits. And I think Meghan felt like Kate was trying to...

• 37:06Alice Levine?

  I'll stop you there. This is so silly. What are you talking about?

• 37:10Matt Forde?

  Also, at the level they're operating at, any designer in the world would clothe you. So even if Kate has stopped you wearing one designer's clothes, and that is unfair, there's a whole world of designers out there.

• 37:23Alice Levine?

  Also, just put on a pantsuit and go cut your ribbon.

• 37:26Speaker 04

  Meg's constantly under the microscope. There's no reason not to share.

• 37:30Matt Forde?

  Will rolls his eyes.

• 37:32Speaker 04

  Grow up, Harold. Meghan's only had good publicity, and you're still whining.

• 37:38Matt Forde?

  Will spills Kate tug his sleeve as a representative from the foundation approaches. He paints on a smile and heads over to her.

• 37:47Speaker 04

  Thanks for today.

• 37:48Matt Forde?

  No, thank you. We couldn't have got off to a better start. The press loved seeing M&H. She quickly adds, "All of the Fab Four, in fact." William inwardly sighs. He has to face facts. With their wedding round the corner, the public has Harry and Meghan fever. And that can only give the whole institution a boost. So he'll make peace, do his best to ensure the Fab Four fantasy remains intact. At least until the wedding is out of the way, and he's back in the driving seat.

• 38:27Matt Forde?

  Six months later, November 2018, Bondi Beach, Sydney, Australia. Harry grins as a surfer spreads a colourful stripe of sunscreen over his nose. He eyes Meghan beside him, puts a protective hand over her small baby bump. Can we get a photo with the little grooms? Harry smiles as a bunch of young surfers gather round to pose with them.

• 38:53Matt Forde?

  It's the perfect end to their first royal tour as the Duke and Duchess of Sussex. Harry has been taken aback by the vast crowds at every engagement, with the Australian press comparing the frenzy to the first time Harry's mum visited. The fact Meghan is four months pregnant is the icing on the cake.

• 39:15Matt Forde?

  Two hours later, on the plane home, Harry watches Meghan snooze contentedly. He pulls out his phone, excited to see the UK coverage, only to stare at the headlines in confusion. Duchess Difficult, Palace Staff in Revolt. Meghan's Demanding Behaviour Sparks Palace Crisis. Sussex Survivors Club Staff Exodus. This is like a coordinated attack.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  Bastards.

• 39:43Matt Forde?

  Seeing Meghan stir, Harry quickly moves to the back of the plane, makes a call.

• 39:49Speaker 05

  Hey, how was the tour?

• 39:51Speaker 04

  Screw the tour. Have you seen the latest headlines?

• 39:55Matt Forde?

  There's a long pause.

• 39:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's not great.

• 40:00Speaker 04

  Not great? These are detailed briefings. Meg bullying staffers until they resign, treating aides like her underlings, making Kate cry when we both know...

• 40:12Speaker 05

  Well, you and I weren't there, and from what Kate said...

• 40:15Speaker 04

  Don't you fucking duh!

• 40:17Matt Forde?

  Harry's head starts to whirl as he thinks about all the positive stories about William and Kate recently. The timing of this.

• 40:25Speaker 04

  It must drive you mad, all the good coverage we've been getting for this tour, that for once you're not the centre of attention. The golden boy.

• 40:32Speaker 05

  Don't be ridiculous.

• 40:35Alice Levine?

  It would seem ridiculous, and it would seem paranoid, if there weren't multiple precedents of people within the family leaking stories to the press. I mean, we heard about Camilla selling stories about Harry's drug use to make Charles look better. This is what they do.

• 40:52Matt Forde?

  This is just a fixture of their family dynamic, is that any one point, any core member of the family can leak mega gossip on another one, and it's been going on for years.

• 41:03Alice Levine?

  And some of it's true, and some of it's not, and it's just used to serve a purpose.

• 41:08Matt Forde?

  But the more he thinks about it, the more it makes sense to Harry.

• 41:12Speaker 04

  This is just the kind of thing your staff would do. Damage us to boost you and Kate. You've gone full fucking firm.

• 41:18Speaker 05

  I don't have to listen to this paranoid...

• 41:20Matt Forde?

  Bullshit.

• 41:22Matt Forde?

  The line goes dead. Harry stares at his phone, filled with anger and doubt. He can't be sure Willie's behind this. It could be anyone at the palace. But his brother certainly isn't doing anything to stop it. He slowly walks back down the plane to a still sleeping Megan. He takes in her baby bump, her peaceful face. And his resolve hardens. All that matters is his new wife and family. And from now on, he will do whatever it takes to protect them. Even if it means calling out Willie on every move he makes.

• 42:08Speaker 03

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• 42:38Speaker 06

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• 43:08Speaker 07

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• 43:50Speaker 07

  It's a world of wonderful words, big imaginations and plenty of heart for the whole family. Listen to the Cat in the Hat podcast wherever you get your podcast. Audible subscribers can binge all 20 episodes early and ad free right now.

• 44:15Matt Forde?

  February 2019, Apartment 1A Kensington Palace. William shuffles uncomfortably, barely making eye contact with Meghan and Harry, who sit across the neatly set table in silence. He relaxes a little as Kate enters with a pot of tea. This meeting was Kate's idea. A chance to clear the air and stop giving the press endless fodder about their houses being at war. Before anything else is said, I want to address the elephant in the room. William watches Kate look directly at Meghan as she sits. The bridesmaid thing, I'm so sorry. I was stressed, sleep deprived from Louis, and I didn't fully understand what was going on with your father.

• 44:59Matt Forde?

  Harry's shoulders unhunch and Meghan's lips turn up into a small smile. Thank you. That means a lot. Will's quietly exhales, confident they're back on track. But Meghan isn't done. I'd appreciate it if your office put out a statement correcting the record about what actually happened. William sees Kate's conciliatory smile falter. He steps in.

• 45:26Speaker 04

  This was all months ago. People have moved on. We should too. Funny how Meg's always the bad guy.

• 45:34Matt Forde?

  William slams his teacup down, his Earl Grey spilling on the white linen tablecloth.

• 45:40Speaker 04

  This is a joke. We've tried our best to welcome Meg, but it's impossible when the two of you seem determined to peddle this persecution narrative.

• 45:49Matt Forde?

  William turns to Megan, cutting her off before she can retort.

• 45:53Speaker 04

  You treat staff as like they're your Hollywood lackeys. You act as if protocol doesn't apply to you. And as for the way you speak to Catherine...

• 46:02Matt Forde?

  Megan looks perplexed. William stares at Kate, urging her to speak. When I was pregnant with Louis, and I forgot to bring round a dish you wanted to borrow, you said I had "baby brain"? It was very hurtful.

• 46:18Matt Forde?

  It was a throwaway comment. I'd say it to any friend.

• 46:22Speaker 04

  Kate isn't your friend. She's the future queen.

• 46:25Matt Forde?

  Harry throws down his napkin.

• 46:27Speaker 04

  The air in all his glory!

• 46:30Matt Forde?

  William's had enough. He stands and points directly at Megan.

• 46:34Speaker 04

  This is all you. None of these problems existed before you came along.

• 46:39Matt Forde?

  Kindly take your finger out of my face.

• 46:42Alice Levine?

  It is very intimidating.

• 46:44Matt Forde?

  William blinks in shock. He looks at Harry, waiting for him to tell his wife she's gone too far. But instead...

• 46:52Speaker 04

  Come on, we're done here.

• 46:54Matt Forde?

  As Harry leads Megan out, a stunned William turns to Kate. She's already clearing the table, her movement sharp with emotion.

• 47:03Speaker 04

  I can't leave it like that.

• 47:05Matt Forde?

  Just... give them some space. Let the dust settle. Under her glare, William nods. But when she leaves the room, he takes his phone out and texts Harry.

• 47:18Speaker 04

  Please, let's talk again. Just you and me. Love, Willie. Kiss.

• 47:24Matt Forde?

  William is certain he can get through to Harry if he can just get him alone. Only then can he break the spell Megan's cast and bring his brother back to his senses.

• 47:40Matt Forde?

  One week later, Nottingham Cottage. Harry sighs as he opens the door to find William on the other side. He silently turns and walks back to the living room, dismissively waving a hand.

• 47:53Speaker 04

  Look, if you're gonna have another go about beards or bloody baby brain, now is not the... I come in peace. I just want to talk about Meg and what's been happening.

• 48:03Matt Forde?

  Harry feels a rush of relief. He sees Willie, by his latest source of misery on the coffee table. A spread in the Mail on Sunday that features extracts from a private letter Meghan sent to her father.

• 48:16Speaker 04

  Right, well, I'm sure you agree this is a new low. We're going to sue.

• 48:21Matt Forde?

  William looks confused.

• 48:22Speaker 04

  No, sorry, I was referring to the ongoing complaints from the staff.

• 48:27Matt Forde?

  Harry stiffens.

• 48:29Speaker 04

  Christ, Willie, like what? She's difficult, rude, abrasive.

• 48:35Matt Forde?

  Harry rolls his eyes.

• 48:36Speaker 04

  They're just parroting tabloid crap.

• 48:41Alice Levine?

  And is he? Because I know this made its way to the papers. But benefit of the doubt, is there a world where she's talking to people in a way that maybe it is like she's on set on one of her TV shows where she's talking to a PA and she's like, you know, can you get me a matcha latte or whatever? And actually, that's not how the palace works. But I'm not sure I would know how to talk to the servants and staff of a royal palace and know what the protocols are. I mean, has anyone taught her what to do?

• 49:08Matt Forde?

  Well, that's right. You're going from one world, TV world, where people are at your beck and call, and you're going into another world where they sort of are, but it's just way more formal. And equerries and footmen are not TV studio runners. You can see how, at the very least, a culture clash would upset some people.

• 49:26Alice Levine?

  Yeah, it's hard to know if there's also a personality thing in the mix there as well. But if you were being a little more sympathetic, you might say, okay, let us teach you the ways.

• 49:37Matt Forde?

  William spins around.

• 49:39Speaker 04

  You can't keep blindly defending her. What is it about her that scares you so much? That she's American, successful in her own right? I suppose that would be quite threatening to someone whose own wife never had a real job.

• 49:52Matt Forde?

  Harry sees the vein on Willie's temple throb as his face darkens.

• 49:57Speaker 04

  Don't you dare speak about Catherine like that. No one... Works harder.

• 50:01Matt Forde?

  But Harry's not listening.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  You can't bear that Meg's completely outshone her, that we're the ones the public associate with mummy now.

• 50:08Matt Forde?

  Willie's face contorts, and Harry knows he's gone too far. He feels the hairs on the back of his neck stand up, as Wills looks at him with pure hatred.

• 50:19Speaker 04

  Bullshit. It's time you woke up, you stupid fucking prick.

• 50:23Matt Forde?

  Harry's jolted by his brother's fury. He decides to give him some breathing space, and heads into the kitchen. Hearing William's footsteps close behind him, he turns.

• 50:35Speaker 04

  Listen, Willie.

• 50:37Matt Forde?

  Before he can utter another word, William grabs him by the collar. He feels a sharp pinch in his neck, realises his leather charm necklace has been ripped off. He touches his throat, tries to regroup, but now he's falling. Harry lands with a thud, crashing against the ceramic dog bowl. He feels it crack beneath him, the shards cutting into the skin on his back like daggers.

• 51:02Speaker 04

  Harry, I, uh...

• 51:03Matt Forde?

  Harry stares at him, shakes his head.

• 51:06Speaker 04

  Get out.

• 51:07Matt Forde?

  Tears prick Harry's eyes as William stumbles back, his face draining of colour.

• 51:12Speaker 04

  I said, get out.

• 51:15Matt Forde?

  William hesitates a beat, then rushes to the door. Harry winces as he touches his bloodstained shirt. Then he pulls up a chair, rests his head in his hands, and sobs.

• 51:31Matt Forde?

  It's dark by the time Harry hears Megan's key in the lock.

• 51:35Matt Forde?

  Harry blinks rapidly, as Megan flicks the light on, and gasps at the state of him. What happened? As she rushes over, and envelops him in her arms, it hits Harry like a thunderbolt.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  I think we should separate from the Cambridge household. No more joint engagements or shared staff.

• 51:55Matt Forde?

  They'll see it as a declaration of war, you do know that. Harry sits up straight. He's feeling stronger by the second.

• 52:03Speaker 04

  We could leave here, get some real distance.

• 52:07Matt Forde?

  Seeing Meghan's face filled with relief, Harry has a moment of total clarity. He doesn't care if this emphasizes their rift with Willie and Kate. From now on, he's putting his family first, even if it means screwing his brother over, even if it means never speaking to his stupid brother again, even if doing so could destroy the very thing he was taught to hold most dear: the British royal family.

• 52:49Matt Forde?

  From Audible Originals and Samistat Audio, this is the second episode in our series, Harry v. Wills.

• 52:54Alice Levine?

  A quick note about our dialogue: in most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.

• 53:02Matt Forde?

  If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Spare by Prince Harry, Battle of Brothers: William, Harry and the Inside Story of a Family in Tumult by Robert Lacey, and The Palace Papers by Tina Brown. You can watch Meghan vs. Kate: The Meeting That Changed the Monarchy on Channel 5, or you can watch Harry and Meghan's interview with Oprah Winfrey on ITVX.

• 53:23Alice Levine?

  And if you'd like to get in touch with us, you can email us at [email protected], and we love hearing from you.

• 53:29Matt Forde?

  British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.

• 53:32Alice Levine?

  And me, Alice Levine.

• 53:33Matt Forde?

  Written by Wendy Granditer. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford.

• 53:38Alice Levine?

  Our story editor was James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. Our engineer was Jai Williams. For Samistat, our series producer was Chica Ayers. Our assistant producer was Louise Mason. Our senior producers were Joe Sykes and Dashalys Itzina. Executive producers for Audible were Theodora Leludis and Estelle Doyle.

• 54:05Speaker 05

  Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 54:51Speaker 05

  You stepped out for your morning jog, except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible: Stories That Speak to You.