Pod Insights British Scandal Harry v Wills | Brothers in Arms | 1 About this episode Two young princes, one impossible family. When their mother dies, William and Harry promise to stick together. But growing up royal isn’t exactly normal. There are posh schools, questionable fancy dress parties, and a divisive step-mum. As Wills trains for the crown and Harry rebels against it, their bond is tested.
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Transcript 8,493 words · 11 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Alice Levine? Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
0:07 Matt Forde? Some house notices before we start. There's strong language in this episode. And just so you know, this series hasn't been timed deliberately to coincide with what's happening. But we obviously couldn't release a royal series at the moment without addressing the ongoing case against Andrew Mambat and Windsor.
0:21 Alice Levine? Yes, so we thought we'd borrow some words from the King himself to summarise our position.
0:27 Speaker 02 Fucking hell, Andrew, you've right royally fucked it up. But with all that said, my family and I will continue to do our duty and service to you all.
0:42 Matt Forde? March 2019, Kensington Palace, London. Prince William crosses the sunken garden, its perfectly symmetrical tulips swaying gently in the spring sunshine. As he arrives at the door of the Picture Postcard Cottage, he thumbs his signet ring, ever mindful of its royal crest and what it means. William loathes conversations like the one he's about to have. But if he's to protect the family, the Crown itself, he must get through to his brother.
1:15 Matt Forde? William takes him in, his easy smile, creased shirt, scruffy hair. And all the tensions of the last few years melt away. It's just the two of them again.
1:28 Speaker 02 Great to see you, Harold. Hi, Willie.
1:31 Matt Forde? William follows Harry into the cramped sitting room. It used to be full of souvenirs from Harry's overseas tours with him and Pa. Now it's all carefully arranged white peonies, cashmere throws, and almost every picture has been replaced with photos of her. William bristles, but keeps his tone casual, warm.
1:51 Speaker 02 Listen, it gives me no pleasure saying this, but I've been hearing rumours about Meg. What do you mean rumours?
1:59 Matt Forde? William eyeballs Harry as he stiffens. He didn't want to have to spell it out.
2:05 Speaker 02 That she's being increasingly difficult, rude, abrasive. Bullshit. You're just parroting tabloid crap.
2:13 Matt Forde? William sighs, struggling to keep the frustration from his voice. "You can't keep blindly defending her. She's your sister-in-law, you should be protecting her from this toxicity, not vilifying her. Kate doesn't even talk to her these days, what's that all about?" At the mention of Kate, William's fists clench. "No one has tried harder than Catherine." William trails off, as Harry's sneer seems to deepen. "Can't handle it, can you? That Meg's completely outshone her, that we're the ones the public associate with mummy now." Now William's fury overtakes him. "Don't you fucking dare bring her into this!
2:55 Matt Forde? It's time you woke up and owned your own mistakes, you stupid little fucking prick."
2:59 Alice Levine? Okay, so he's annoyed?
3:01 Matt Forde? He is, and we should remember, descended from God. So this really is Jesus speaking now.
3:08 Alice Levine? I don't remember this passage in the Bible.
3:11 Matt Forde? As William stands, shaking with anger, Harry eyes him with pity. "I can't speak to you when you're like this." William feels a red mist descend, as Harry disappears into the kitchen. He's sick of his brother's condescension, his pig-headed superiority. He charges after him and grabs him by the collar, ripping the chain from around his neck as he pushes him to the floor. Harry hits the hard tile with a sickening thud, crashing into the dog bowl. William sucks in his breath, staggers back. "Harry, uh, I... get out." William stumbles backwards. "I-I didn't mean... I said get out! Get out, get the fuck out of my house!"
3:56 Matt Forde? William's eyes widen in horror, at the blood seeping through the back of Harry's shirt.
4:01 Alice Levine? Oh, God!
4:02 Matt Forde? Then he looked through the window, sees a groundsman stare back at him, shocked. He feels sick to the stomach. He's just attacked his brother. His little brother.
4:14 Alice Levine? The little fucking prick.
4:16 Matt Forde? Their relationship is over now, for sure. But maybe this spells the end of something else, too. The thing he cherishes more than anyone in the world. More than Harry. More than even Catherine. Could what he's done, bring down the British monarchy?
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5:10 Speaker 04 Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on the Continental Army and secretly defects. He plots to hand over the most important fortress in the colonies to the British and doom the revolution he once served. Listen to American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.
5:32 Matt Forde? From Audible Originals, I'm Matt Ford.
5:34 Alice Levine? And I'm Alice Levine.
5:36 Matt Forde? And this is British Scandal, the show where we bring you the merkiest stories that ever happened on these odd little isles.
5:43 Alice Levine? British scandals come in many shapes and sizes. Some are about money, some are about sex. They're all about power.
5:50 Matt Forde? But when we look at scandals a bit closer, they turn out to be stranger, wilder, just plain weirder than we remember.
5:56 Alice Levine? So we're journeying back to ask, who's to blame for what happened?
6:00 Matt Forde? And when the dust settled, did anything really change?
6:17 Matt Forde? I have got one of my favourite types of scandal for you this time, Alice. I am bringing you a pair of warring siblings.
6:24 Alice Levine? We are not doing Oasis again. There's no way.
6:26 Matt Forde? It's a shame, but I accept the decision of the court. Now, you've got a younger brother. As the older, more responsible slash bossier sibling, did you feel a need to keep him in check?
6:36 Alice Levine? Oh my God, yes. He called me a second mum at points. I definitely felt like my parents weren't strict enough and so I took on the disciplinary role.
6:45 Matt Forde? You were a hired goon for your parents.
6:49 Alice Levine? I mean, they didn't even hire me, self-appointed.
6:51 Matt Forde? Well, let's take your petty little suburban East Midlands sibling squabbles and significantly raise the stakes.
6:58 Alice Levine? How could they be higher?
6:59 Matt Forde? Well, we're taking it to the national stage. No, the international stage. Let's move from the Levine bungalow to the House of Windsor.
7:10 Alice Levine? Oh, Harry and William, Hazen, Waz, Wilson Hills.
7:15 Matt Forde? Yes, those two, whatever you choose to call them. We are delving deep into probably the most talked about family feud in the history of families and in the history of feuds. And this is one we didn't really know about until it all came crashing down in the most public way possible. Prince William, the heir, and Prince Harry, the spare, were once bound by blood, grief, and destiny. But now they don't speak to each other. William is obviously getting on with a job, preparing to be the next king. Harry has been discharged from all royal duties and is now living in America.
7:45 Alice Levine? Yes, he's very busy, sprinkling edible flowers on things and bagging up little bits of pretzel.
7:51 Matt Forde? I mean, the thing is, compared to what the rules do, it's actually quite a lot of work. But, we joke, this is Shakespearean in its scale. Never mind two households both alike in dignity. This is two brothers bonded in tragedy and ripped apart, whether by an ancient grudge or by new mutiny, or by a woman.
8:10 Alice Levine? Bloody women, they sneak into every single story. Okay, I have a question for you though, Matt. There is this huge chasm between them. There's been much discussion about it. But what the hell, or who the hell, has actually caused it?
8:23 Matt Forde? Let's find out. This is episode one, Brothers in Arms.
8:30 Matt Forde? Twenty-two years earlier, 30th of August, 1997, Balmoral Estate, Scotland.
8:38 Matt Forde? Fifteen-year-old Prince William grips the handlebars of his quad bike as he leans into a sharp turn, mud splaying behind the wheels. William feels a surge of triumph, until the small frame of a twelve-year-old leaning forward on his own quad bike like a jockey whizzes right in front of him. "Later, loser!" William feels a surge of anger as Harry whizzes ahead. "You little cheat!" William bears down. He revs the throttle, soon they're neck and neck. Will's grins. "Who's the loser now?" He's about to cross the finish line when Harry edges into him, forcing him to veer off course and stealing the win.
9:27 Matt Forde? William throws down his helmet. "You cut me off! You can't do that!" Harry just grins as a housekeeper shouts across the grounds.
9:36 Speaker 02 "Boys, your mother's on the phone!"
9:40 Matt Forde? William races towards the house. Inside, he grabs the phone first. "Hi, mummy. How's the med?"
9:49 Speaker 02 "We're in Paris now."
9:51 Matt Forde? But William's distracted by Harry rushing over to their father. "I won, pa! It's the fastest I've ever gone!"
9:57 Speaker 02 "Darling, are you there?"
10:00 Matt Forde? His mum's voice snaps William back, but his only thought now is revenge. "Harry wants to talk. Bye. Love you." William shoves the phone at Harry, then reaches for his brother's untouched chocolate cake and takes an enormous bite. Harry's eyes widen in horror. His mouth still full of cake, William takes off down the corridor, anger dissolving into mischief, as Harry drops the phone and gives chase through the suits of armour.
10:31 Matt Forde? Hours later, happily exhausted and tucked up in bed, William's thoughts turn to how he can get back at Harry tomorrow. He just did, didn't he?
10:39 Alice Levine? That's it, done. You need to call it now.
10:41 Matt Forde? Chocolate cake is like that ends all fights.
10:43 Alice Levine? If only the Gallagher brothers knew that. It would have been so simple, wouldn't it? All those years of feuding.
10:48 Matt Forde? Maybe that's where this is gonna go. Harry and Will's Seven Nights at Wembley.
10:53 Alice Levine? Walkout, holding hands, people chucking piss in celebration. Heaven.
10:58 Matt Forde? He soon drifts off into a blissful sleep. Then a hand gently shakes his shoulder. William blinks into the lamplight. Ah, William, William, I, I, I need you to wake up. Rubbing his blurry eyes, William realises Pa is there. His face looks strange, pale and drawn.
11:21 Matt Forde? William sits up, eyes the clock. It's 6:30 AM. Too early for a Sunday. There's, there's been an accident. A mummy was in a car crash. His heartbeat quickens. He stares at his Pa in confusion. But his father lowers his head, his eyes fixating on William's crumpled Aston Villa shirt on the floor. They tried, but there was nothing they could do. Darling boy, I'm afraid she didn't make it.
11:56 Matt Forde? His father trails off. The room seems to tilt. William feels numb, disoriented. They only spoke hours ago. She was fine, she was coming home. Tears prick William's eyes as he watches his father stumble to his feet. I, I have to tell Harry now. And William. Yes, Pa? I need you. I need you to be strong for your brother.
12:30 Alice Levine? Has there ever been a moment or a sentence that more perfectly sums up the stiff upper lip, that kind of royal burden and unnatural way to process something so traumatic?
12:41 Matt Forde? Yes, the fact that immediately William is thrust into a role of duty rather than just being able to grieve, because even though he's the older brother, he's still a child, is very difficult for him.
12:55 Matt Forde? William turns and looks in his parents' frightened eyes in horror. But somehow he follows him, zombie-like, into the smaller room next door. Once there, William finds himself fixated on Harry's restful face, blissfully unaware of how his whole world is about to be shattered. And as his father gently shakes Harry awake, and he slowly yawns and opens his innocent eyes, William knows that he must now put petty differences aside and be strong if he and his brother are going to survive this.
13:42 Matt Forde? The following day, 31st of August 1997, Crathie Kirk, Aberdeenshire. Harry sits on the church's cold bench, a hymnbook open on his lap. He watches Willie beside him, silently mouthing along to the service's opening prayer.
14:06 Matt Forde? Harry wants to join in, but he can't. He thought that he'll sit down and talk about mummy as a family, but instead he's in this cold chapel, just like it's any ordinary Sunday.
14:19 Matt Forde? As we always do, we pray for the royal family, but today, especially for the Prince of Wales and the children.
14:29 Matt Forde? Harry straightens up. He stares at the vicar, waiting for some wisdom, some comfort. And now, let us sing Psalm twenty-three, "The Lord is my shepherd." He turns to Wills, lost. Is Mummy really dead?
14:46 Alice Levine? Oh, it's heartbreaking.
14:47 Matt Forde? He says In Spare, which is a great book. For quite a while, he just didn't believe she was dead, that she was gonna turn up somehow. He just couldn't get his head around the fact that she was gone.
14:55 Alice Levine? That's so relatable, though, isn't it? That kind of feeling of waking up and not remembering. And you can have that even when you don't go to sleep, can't you? Just moments where you're like, is that real?
15:05 Matt Forde? Yeah, and you're in a situation where no one is really addressing the death properly. So it would feel surreal. His pa gently shushes him, then turns his book to the right page as Harry is forced to his feet. An hour later, back at Balmoral, Harry watches in disbelief as his grandfather sets up a barbecue on the terrace with the rest of the family. He pulls William aside. Why aren't you upset? Only now does Harry see Willie's eyes moisten.
15:35 Speaker 02 I am, but we can't break down. It's, it's not what we do.
15:42 Matt Forde? But Mummy cried. When she felt sad, she talked about it.
15:46 Alice Levine? That's a good point. And also, they're surrounded by images of the nation crying. How strange, then, to have to repress that feeling.
15:54 Matt Forde? The flowers outside Buckingham Palace, the crowds of mourners. The whole country was emotionally rocked by this. And then they're there having a barbecue.
16:06 Matt Forde? William fixes his eyes on Harry, his voice gentle but firm, an echo of their pars.
16:13 Speaker 02 It's not how this side of the family works.
16:16 Matt Forde? Harry shakes his head. He won't accept that. He can't. He pushes past William and storms over to his father, who is turning sausages over hot coals.
16:26 Speaker 02 Ah, there you are, darling boy. I was thinking about half-term. How would you like to join me on tour in Africa? I have it on good authority that the Spice Girls will be there at the same time.
16:39 Matt Forde? Harry starts to open his mouth. He wants to scream, to shout into the open sky, to smash the barbecue to pieces. But he just stands there, unable to move or find any words. And when his brother joins them, head bowed, shoulders rigid, composure back to neutral.
16:58 Matt Forde? He loses his nerve. He adopts a steady, emotionless voice.
17:05 Matt Forde? Yes, Pa. The Spice Girls. Seeing relief wash over the faces around him, Harry forces a weak smile. He feels Willie's hand gently rests on his shoulder as he realises he has to accept that the only way through this is to mask the pain, pretend he's okay, and bury his grief so deep that even he can't find it.
17:41 Matt Forde? One year later. September 1998. Eton College, Berkshire.
17:48 Matt Forde? William hurls a rugby ball across the perfectly manicured lawn, knocking the receiver over. Wills chuckles as he strides over and helps him to his feet. Come on, Redders. You will need to do better if you're going to keep the title. Fun fact: Redders is not a Christian name. It's a nickname based on the surname of...
18:09 Matt Forde? Eddie Redmayne.
18:10 Alice Levine? Hollywood star.
18:12 Matt Forde? Hollywood star. Old Etonian. Friend of the future king.
18:17 Alice Levine? That tracks though, doesn't it? Very posh. Actually, it sounds like a royal.
18:21 Matt Forde? It's actually a miracle he got anywhere.
18:25 Matt Forde? William slaps him on the back and checks his watch. Gotta go. I need to be in the pool by four. See you later at pop.
18:34 Alice Levine? I'm sure everybody listening knows, but I don't. Pop?
18:36 Matt Forde? Pop is the Etonian Society of Prefects. Twenty-one of them were elected to be prefects. So there has been some democracy. It's very important that we remember that. He was fairly elected a prefect and, as a result, deserves to govern this nation. Him and Redders were both part of that select group. Can you imagine how insufferable they would have been? I mean, prefects are bad enough as it is, and I was one. So it's a lot of self-reflection here.
19:00 Alice Levine? Yeah, I remember the prefects at school. Not that clearly, because I was head girl, so they were kind of a mass of worker bees to me. But yeah, I mean, an achievement of sorts, so you must be proud of that.
19:12 Matt Forde? I would be on your privy council, basically.
19:16 Matt Forde? I'd be some slithering little creep, Your Majesty.
19:21 Matt Forde? There is trouble in the science block.
19:26 Matt Forde? William slings his swim bag over his shoulder and rushes past the red brick buildings lining the schoolyard, waving to familiar faces as he passes. He loves Eton. It's been like a haven this last year. A safe bubble shielding him from the fallout that followed his mum's death. The calls for reforming the monarchy, the hatred directed towards granny and pa for their coldness. Here, he can just be one of the lads. As the aquatic centre comes into view, William glimpses a group of jeering lads looming over a smaller boy in a fawn and blue waistcoat, the colours of his house. Christ, even the scholarship boys dress themselves better. Maybe his valet had a stroke this morning.
20:10 Matt Forde? William darkens, takes a detour in their direction. As house captain, it's his job to protect the new intake from bullying. He prepares to give the perpetrators a piece of his mind, only to stop dead when he glimpses a familiar shock of red hair. In front of him stands Harry, looking painfully lost. His frame even smaller than usual in his new uniform, white bow tie askew. I just... Someone said the waistcoat goes under the tailcoat, but... No wonder they held him back a year at Ludbrook. William's jaw tightens. He starts to walk away, but his conscience makes him stop. Taking him in,
20:54 Matt Forde? the boys exchange unsure looks. Then one gives a nonchalant shrug. Your baby bro needs to learn he's not in prep school anymore. William feels his face flush. The boy stays on him, almost challenging. He hardens. It's really not complicated, Harry. A five-year-old could do it. William shifts his eyes to the floor as the lads laugh. The ringleader claps him on the shoulder as he strolls off. He feels a rush of guilt as he takes in Harry's crestfallen face. He knows his mum would want him to put an armour round him, tell him he's got his back. But he can't risk losing what's kept him sane this last year. So instead...
21:36 Matt Forde? Look, Harold, while we're here, I don't know you and you don't know me. It's better that way, okay? William's throat tightens as he hears the words out loud. But he can't let his little brother's shortcomings drag him down. As Pa has taught him, sometimes, love looks like distance. He's found his own way. Now Harry must do the same.
22:08 Matt Forde? One month later, Eton College, Berkshire. Harry wafts the smoke from his joint through the room's open window, and taps his foot to the beat of Metallica blasting from the hi-fi. He watches the last of his ginger locks fall to the floor, then stares at his newly shaved head in the mirror, as his mate proudly holds his electric clippers aloft.
22:31 Speaker 02 Bloody hell, Harry, you look like a proper hard case now.
22:35 Alice Levine? Almost definitely not.
22:37 Matt Forde? Yeah, no one ever says, "You want to look out for those Eton skinheads."
22:42 Matt Forde? Some of them listen to Metallica, for god's sake, they're really hard. Harry forces himself to smile. Love it, absolutely love it. Even in his cannabis high, he doesn't mean it. He looks like a convict. But his mates like it, and that's what matters. Harry's found his tribe, and it's a far cry from his brother's king of the castle shtick.
23:06 Matt Forde? He's fully embracing his role as the dirty rascal. Right, who's up for some corridor cricket?
23:13 Alice Levine? I have never heard something so anarchic.
23:15 Matt Forde? God, you guys are wild.
23:17 Alice Levine? Cricket in the corridor, when it's supposed to be on the lawn? Stop.
23:21 Matt Forde? You rascal, Harry.
23:23 Alice Levine? You brackets dirty rascal.
23:26 Matt Forde? Harry sprints to the corridor like a hungry dog. He takes position with a makeshift bat, whacks the ball down the polished hallway, just as William rounds the corner and catches it in one hand. Harry's heart sinks as his brother's jaw drops at the sight of him, his face cycling through shock, disbelief, and finally disgust. Christ, Harold, what have you done to yourself?
23:52 Matt Forde? Yeah, sorry, can we just concentrate on the fact that you caught that one-handed?
23:55 Alice Levine? Unreal.
23:56 Matt Forde? Because I, we can argue in a bit, but that was cool.
24:01 Matt Forde? Feeling the eyes of his pals upon him, Harry glares back, defiant.
24:06 Speaker 02 It's called a skinhead. Knucklehead more like. What do you think Pa's gonna make of...
24:12 Matt Forde? But Harry snaps back.
24:14 Speaker 02 At least I don't look like a reject from Boyzone.
24:17 Alice Levine? Oh, shots fired.
24:19 Matt Forde? Harry waits for a reaction. Instead, his brother just throws him a cold stare before he strides off. Infuriated, Harry follows him into his perfectly ordered room.
24:29 Speaker 02 At least I don't go around acting like a robot. You're almost inhuman. Fuck what Pa would think of me. What would mummy make of you?
24:37 Matt Forde? Harry jumps in shock as William spins around, his face twisted with fury. Suddenly, they're grappling. They crash into William's bedside table. It goes over, sending photo frames and books crashing down.
24:53 Matt Forde? Harry's grip on William loosens, as he sees what was hidden behind it: several showbiz mags.
25:00 Alice Levine? Is that a code for a different kind of mag?
25:02 Matt Forde? I wouldn't know.
25:04 Alice Levine? Or do you literally mean Heat magazine?
25:06 Matt Forde? Let me ask some fifteen-year-old boys.
25:09 Alice Levine? Well, I thought it was jazz mags.
25:11 Matt Forde? Jazz mags. Sounds sophisticated.
25:13 Alice Levine? Do they say Jazz sites now?
25:15 Speaker 02 Jazz sites!
25:17 Matt Forde? Harry struggles to his feet and picks one up, takes in the photo of their mother next to a recent pic of William, under the headline "Diana's Double."
25:27 Alice Levine? It's hard to imagine now, but William was all over these kind of trashy mags as a bit of a heartthrob.
25:35 Matt Forde? I remember girls at school had mega crushes on William, and he had that floppy blonde hair, big smile, he was obviously well-turned-out. He was the one they all fancied. No one was talking about Harry back then. He grabs another, showing Willie in his Eton uniform. The line beneath reads "Can Wills Save the Royals", alongside a smaller photo of their dad with his longtime love, Camilla Parker Bowles. Harry's stomach lurches at the sight of her, but he's distracted by an almost alien sound coming from his brother's throat. Devastated, choking sobs.
26:15 Speaker 02 There's just so much pressure all the time. I hate it.
26:20 Matt Forde? Harry shuffles awkwardly. He's never seen Willie cry before. He's unsure what to do.
26:26 Speaker 02 What? Why didn't you just say?
26:30 Matt Forde? William splutters a laugh through his tears.
26:32 Speaker 02 You've got enough problems trying to figure out how to get a decent haircut.
26:37 Matt Forde? Now Harry finds himself smiling as Wills goes on.
26:41 Speaker 02 I'd love to mess about, but I can't. I'm going to be the bloody king one day.
26:46 Matt Forde? Harry stares at him a moment. Then, before he can stop himself, he steps forward and pulls Willie into a fierce hug. He feels his brother stiffen then collapse like a crumbling building.
26:58 Speaker 02 We don't have to be like Pa and Granny and the rest of them. We can get through this our way. Us against the world.
27:05 Matt Forde? Harry's confidence drains as Willie stays silent for an age. But then, he grins.
27:11 Speaker 02 Us against the world.
27:14 Speaker 02 Us against the bloody world.
27:17 Matt Forde? As he sees the pain in William's eyes turn to hope, Harry's stomach stops churning for the first time since their mother died. He's been so alone, but now he has someone who really understands his pain, who can help him through this. And now they're united. Nothing and no one is going to pull them apart ever again.
27:42 Speaker 05 A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom, impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene, and the driver of the pickup, he doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.
28:27 Speaker 05 Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
28:43 Speaker 06 Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organised crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts,
29:28 Speaker 06 and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free, with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
29:49 Speaker 06 November 1998, Highgrove, Gloucestershire. Harry takes a drag from his cigarette. Then he throws his head forward and does his best air guitar to the mega-death blasting through the dimly-lit room. He loves metal music.
30:07 Alice Levine? Because he's a renegade, how many times? You can't be playing "Dido White Flag" at full blast, can you?
30:13 Speaker 06 It's a better song, though, isn't it?
30:14 Alice Levine? I'm surprised at you, because you always say that women can't make music.
30:17 Speaker 06 No, the full quote is "as good as men." Harry's friends whoop and cheer, head-banging in appreciation of his performance. With its black walls, red Moroccan sofas, and expensive sound system, this converted bomb shelter is like their very own private members' bar. They've even given the bar a name: Club H.
30:43 Matt Forde? He looks across at Willie, who swigs from a bottle of hooch and shouts over, "Turn that shit off." Harry gives him the finger and turns the volume up. Wills chucks a cushion at him, almost knocking his Marlboro Light from his hand. Harry grins as his brother climbs onto a table and adopts the voice of their despised classics master at Eton. "Right, boys, conjugate to be tedious in the present tense." They all collapse into laughter. Willie? Harry? What's going on? Panicked, Harry glances at Willie. "I thought he wasn't back until tomorrow." William quickly shouts in reply. "Uh, yes, Pa?"
31:28 Matt Forde? "I need to see you both in the drawing room, now." Harry bundles his friends out of the back exit with their stash of cigs, frantically wafting the smoke out behind them. "We're dead." "You mean, I'm dead?" Harry frowns. As the eldest, Willie always takes the blame. He has more scrutiny from the family. So the minute they enter the drawing room, Harry steps up. "Pa, before you start, it was my idea." But to his surprise, his father doesn't look angry, he looks nervous.
32:05 Matt Forde? "What?" "Uh, please, sit down." "Is everything alright, Pa?" When he turns around, his earnest expression makes Harry's heartbeat quicken. "I, uh, I think it's time you met Camilla." Harry's vision seems to blur, as his father fixes them both with determined eyes. "She's the woman I love. It's important that you're formally introduced."
32:32 Alice Levine? "It's also important that we have some open dialogue about the really intense, traumatic thing that we've all been through as a family. So, you know, once we've checked that off the list, I think then we can start talking girlfriends."
32:44 Matt Forde? Harry's mouth goes dry. He can't think of anything worse than sitting in a room with a woman who made mummy's life so miserable, who shamelessly tried to replace her, who caused her so much pain. He steals a glance at Willie, whose face is drained of colour. He's sure he feels the same. So if Pa thinks that he and Willie will roll over and accept Camilla into their lives, he's got another thing coming. In fact, Harry's going to make sure that never happens.
33:21 Matt Forde? Two days later, Highgrove.
33:25 Matt Forde? Charles pushes down his nerves, smiles warmly, as Harry and Will's enter the library. He beckons them over to the table, where a lavish afternoon tea is laid out. And the woman who means so much to him is waiting.
33:39 Speaker 02 Boys, I'd like you to meet Mrs. Camilla Parker Bowles.
33:46 Alice Levine? There are so many things that are weird about this meeting and deeply awkward. But being introduced to your dad's new girlfriend and having her introduced by full name, bizarre. Just say Camilla.
33:59 Matt Forde? Watching her step forward, hands trembling, Charles knows she's as anxious as he is. They've waited so long for this, and now the Queen has finally given him permission to make their relationship official, on the condition the boys are happy.
34:15 Alice Levine? Spoiler: they're not.
34:17 Matt Forde? To his relief, William shakes Camilla's hand with practised courtesy.
34:22 Speaker 02 How do you do, Mrs. Parker Bowles?
34:24 Matt Forde? Please, call me Camilla. It's lovely to meet you. Charles fixes his gaze on his younger son as Camilla turns his way. Hello, Harry. Charles's chest tightens, as Harry's mouth stays firmly shut, his eyes hostile. He darkens as they sit, about to press his youngest for a response, when Camilla leans forward, unperturbed. Harry, I hear you're a keen polo player. Do tell me about your horse. Charles gazes at Camilla, in awe of her strength. Harry rolls his eyes.
35:02 Speaker 02 My horse? Well, he has four legs.
35:07 Matt Forde? Charles tightens his fists, as Will stifles a laugh. For goodness' sake, Harry! Charles feels Camilla's hand squeeze his knee under the table.
35:17 Alice Levine? Not the time, Cam Cam.
35:19 Matt Forde? She likes the horse chat.
35:22 Alice Levine? Really turns me on when your kids are being rude to me.
35:24 Matt Forde? Oh, yah, yah, yah.
35:27 Matt Forde? It's okay. Harry has a dry sense of humour I can appreciate. Charles feels a swell of pride as Camilla holds Harry's gaze. I'd ask what school's like, but I imagine you'd tell me it's a building made of bricks.
35:43 Matt Forde? Charles feels himself freeze as William jumps in.
35:47 Speaker 02 Actually, it's a combination of brick and stone.
35:50 Matt Forde? Charles is delighted by the sound of Camilla's throaty laugh. Ha! Shame on me. An unforgivable error. Charles catches a glimmer of respect in William's eyes as Camilla goes on. So, William, tell me more about Eton. As William chats politely, Charles sneaks a look at Harry, whose face burns with barely concealed fury. He forces himself to ignore it, but a few minutes later, when Camilla steps out to take a phone call, he throws down his napkin and turns to Harry. What was that? Harry glares back at him. Charles reminds himself he's just fourteen, a child. He tries to calm down.
36:36 Speaker 02 Darling boy, this is very important to me. Camilla is...
36:42 Matt Forde? A homewrecker! Charles stares at him with consternation. How dare he? But just as he's preparing to bore Harry out, he sees Wills gently rest a hand on Harry's arm. Harrod! Charles notes the skilled way Wills holds his brother's gaze. Unjudgmental, but firm. Then to his amazement, Harry turns his way.
37:07 Speaker 02 Sorry.
37:09 Matt Forde? Harry looks up to Wills. He respects him. If Charles talked to William alone, makes him realise how important this is, he's sure Wills can win Harry round. Then he can get on with the work of rehabilitating his and Camilla's images and get the British monarchy back on track.
37:30 Alice Levine? I just can't help but feel that you wouldn't be moving at this pace and in this way if you were putting the children's needs first. This definitely feels self-serving. This feels like his main ambition and main motivation is to rehabilitate his image and Camilla's image because at this point, they are loathed, they are at rock bottom in terms of like, public buy-in, in order that he can secure his place as a popular king, or a king even. But none of it feels like it's about bringing his kids up in a way that makes them secure.
38:04 Matt Forde? Later that evening, Club H, Highgrove. William enters to find Harry lobbing darts at the board, a photo of Camilla pinned to its centre. Subtle. Harry doesn't turn around. Instead, he holds his next dart, hitting Camilla's forehead. William settles on one of the sofas, his dad's instructions echoing in his head. Look, maybe it's time we moved on. Gave Camilla a chance.
38:33 Speaker 02 Come to do Pa's dirty work? As if sucking up to her wasn't bad enough.
38:38 Matt Forde? William feels his cheeks redden. It's not that simple. Do you remember the tissues? William eyes Harry, confused. His brother turns from the dartboard. When mummy would lock herself in the bathroom because of her. William's stomach knots as he thinks back to when he was 11 years old, kneeling on the floor, sliding kleenex under the door while their mother sobbed.
39:03 Alice Levine? I'm with Harry, I would find it so hard to let go of this grudge. And particularly such a young person to understand the nuances, to understand that there were things happening on both sides. You just see your mum who's really vulnerable and you see her really upset. I just, nobody's explained anything to him. Nobody sat down and said, I know you're angry, I know you're sad. Probably no one's said, do you want some therapy, I imagine? And adults around him are just expecting him to put it aside.
39:33 Matt Forde? And, he's stoned out of his box.
39:36 Alice Levine? You don't know that.
39:37 Matt Forde? This poor thing is like a lab rat. I mean, he's just like, his head is fried.
39:42 Alice Levine? And don't even get me started on the hooch.
39:45 Matt Forde? William feels a rush of resentment at Harry's self-righteousness. He wishes they could stay in a bubble of loyalty to Mummy forever. But this is bigger than that. It's time Harry joined the real world, heard some home truths.
39:59 Speaker 02 How many boys at Eton have stepmothers they can't stand, Harry?
40:03 Matt Forde? William stays on his brother, who seems too thrown to answer.
40:08 Speaker 02 They get on with it, suck it up, anything to keep the peace.
40:12 Matt Forde? To William's frustration, Harry seems to double down, throwing his remaining dart at the floor.
40:18 Speaker 02 I can't do that, not after everything she did. Mummy was no saint either. Do you have any idea what it was like for me at school when she did panorama? When she told the world she had an affair?
40:31 Matt Forde? Harry flinches like he's been slapped.
40:33 Speaker 02 That's different, is it? She wasn't perfect, Harold. They both made mistakes, did things they're not proud of. But Mummy's gone and Pa is still here.
40:46 Matt Forde? The silence between them seems eternal. Finally, Harry walks towards the dartboard and slowly pulls out the darts. He hands two of them to Will's, holds the other up.
40:59 Speaker 02 One more?
41:01 Matt Forde? William sighs, then nods. He watches as Harry aims, then throws with vicious precision, landing the dart right between Camilla's eyes.
41:11 Speaker 02 I'll be nice, for a parent's sake. Doesn't mean I have to like it, though.
41:16 Matt Forde? William feels no triumph in victory, he doesn't like it either. But sometimes sacrifices are necessary. So he will keep a close eye on Harry. Make sure he continues to pot up and shut up for the greater good. Because no amount of loyalty and love for Diana will save the institution. And William must protect that, no matter what.
41:47 Matt Forde? Three years later, January 2002, Kensington Palace. Harry storms into William's study, a copy of the News of the World clenched tightly in his fist. He thrusts it in his brother's face, blood boiling as he rereads the headline: 'Harry's drug shame'. Have you seen this? Have you bloody seen it? Harry waits as William glances up from his university textbooks and reads the story, which paints Par as a devoted father, bravely seeking help for his wayward son. This is Camilla's doing. That spin doctor she hides is on a mission to turn Par from cheating husband to struggling single dad.
42:30 Matt Forde? Harry starts pacing like a caged animal, his voice rising with every step.
42:36 Matt Forde? This isn't fair. I've done everything asked of me, kept my mouth shut, played happy families. But I always knew she couldn't be trusted, and this proves it.
42:46 Alice Levine? This feels like history repeating itself. Obviously Diana felt paranoid that people were briefing on her and leaking stories to the press from within the royal household, even potentially from within the royal family. And now we're hearing that there's no safe place for Harry and that his actions are being repurposed as part of a rebrand for Camilla and Charles.
43:09 Matt Forde? Harry stops pacing, fixing William with determined eyes. You've had stuff leak too, right? Private stuff? Harry takes a breath and allows William to answer.
43:21 Speaker 02 Yes, it must be from the same source.
43:25 Matt Forde? Harry puffs his chest out, bolstered by the vindication. Okay then, let's have it out with them. Harry strides towards the door, but William jumps up, blocking his way.
43:37 Speaker 02 No.
43:39 Matt Forde? Harry tries to stare him down, but William holds his gaze, unflinching.
43:45 Speaker 02 Talking about this with each other is one thing, but you can't declare war over it. What if that leaked? How would it look? How would it look? How do you think I look right now? Like someone who's screwed up and has to face the consequences.
44:01 Matt Forde? Harry can't believe what he's hearing.
44:03 Speaker 02 You did take drugs, Harold. This is what happens when you make bad choices. Bad choices? I wasn't the only one living it up. But I didn't get caught.
44:15 Matt Forde? Harry blinks, stunned.
44:17 Speaker 02 It's a jubilee year. We're riding high again. It's time to look forward, not back.
44:24 Matt Forde? Harry's blood runs cold. His brother sounds just like Pa. Not the boy who just a few years ago said, "To hell with protocol", who wanted to live a little.
44:34 Speaker 02 What happened to us against the bloody world, Willie?
44:38 Matt Forde? Harry stays on him, imploring him with his eyes. But all he sees is cold, uncompromising acceptance.
44:47 Speaker 02 We're not kids anymore, Harold. You'll be eighteen this year. Grow up.
44:54 Matt Forde? Harry feels like he's just taken a bullet to the chest. He knows now he's pushing against a brick wall. William can't be convinced, not anymore.
45:04 Speaker 02 Fine, I'll drop it. Good.
45:08 Matt Forde? He waits for more. A thank you, maybe? But Willie returns to his textbooks. A clear signal, the conversation is over. As he slowly walks from the room, Harry realises, this isn't just about today. Willie has picked a different side, and he can no longer rely on him. He's been betrayed by the person he trusted the most. From this moment, he's on his own.
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47:38 Matt Forde? Five years later, July 2007, Oxfordshire. William stalks nervously through the grand entrance hall of the 17th century manor house, passing a succession of naughty nuns and scantily clad bishops. He nervously adjusts his policeman’s helmet. He’s taken the “freaking naughty” theme of this party seriously. Wills keeps his blues and royals dress coat firmly buttoned, not ready to show the rest of his outfit off yet. As Wills enters the ballroom, the host, dressed in a devil wanzie, beckons him over. “Wills, good to see you buddy!” William joins him and grabs a beer, ready to let off some steam after a tough week’s military training.
48:23 Matt Forde? But he’s thrown by the sight of a long-haired brunette in a figure-hugging nurse’s outfit. His eyes travel up her long, fishnet-clad legs, past the tiny skirt that barely covers her thighs, to her very familiar, very pretty face. “You didn’t say she was coming.” “Can’t avoid her forever buddy. Anyway, you’re the one who did the dumping. Then what possessed you, I’ll never know!” William’s throat tightens as the host eyes Kate Middleton appreciatively. After five years with her, Wills felt stifled, constantly pressured by the press to propose. So he ended it. But he’s thought about it non-stop. He suddenly wishes he’d asked Harry to join him tonight.
49:07 Matt Forde? He’s always the perfect wingman. But they’ve been going through another tense phase recently. If he’s going to win Kate back, he’ll have to do it alone. William takes a breath and strides towards her, feeling a rush of excitement when their eyes meet. Only for Kate to quickly turn and walk away. He catches her up and grabs her hand. But when she spins around, eyes blazing, he’s dumbstruck. The next thing he knows, he’s unbuttoning his dress coat. Wills hurls it to the floor, revealing the rest of his costume. A tight white t-shirt and tiny, black hot pants.
49:48 Matt Forde? I did not see that coming.
49:49 Alice Levine? Neither did she.
49:51 Matt Forde? The future King of England in hot pants. Kate's mouth falls open, and then to his delight, she bursts into helpless giggles. What are you wearing? William grins as guests start laughing and clapping. He blurts the first words he can think of.
50:11 Speaker 02 Young lady, I'm, uh, I'm arresting you for, um, theft of my heart. You, uh, you do not need to say anything. A kiss will suffice and will say no more about it.
50:22 Matt Forde? William's heart soars as Kate grabs his hand and pulls him into a nearby bathroom, shutting the door firmly behind them. You're unbelievable!
50:32 Speaker 02 It's supposed to be ironic, like the village people policeman.
50:36 Matt Forde? William's thrown when he realises Kate's no longer smiling. Instead, she looks livid. Not the costume, you, joking after what I went through, the humiliation. William lowers his eyes. For five years, I never put a foot wrong, put up with the weighty Katie jibes. He sees a slight tear in the corner of her eye, and suddenly feels utterly ashamed.
51:03 Speaker 02 You're right, I'm, I'm sorry. I messed up big time. It's unforgivable.
51:10 Matt Forde? William takes a breath, his voice cracks.
51:13 Speaker 02 But I do love you, Catherine.
51:16 Matt Forde? As he starts to choke back tears, he feels Kate's hand reach out and brush his own.
51:21 Speaker 02 Letting you go was the most stupid thing I've ever done. Please, give me another chance.
51:27 Matt Forde? It feels as if time slows. Then, the smile he loves, the one that gives her the cutest dimples, reappears. You look utterly ridiculous in those shorts. As Kate pulls him close, kisses him in the way he so desperately missed, William feels lighter than he has in months. He vows that from now on, he'll stop getting distracted by the press, by what happened to his mum, by petty squabbles with Harry.
51:59 Matt Forde? He's going to focus on his future and the future of the monarchy with this woman by his side.
52:11 Matt Forde? Three months later, Paris. Harry flicks through his Rugby World Cup programme as his limousine glides through the darkened Paris streets. He checks his mobile, feels a stab of disappointment as the screen displays no messages from Willy. He'd hoped he might change his mind about joining him out here for the tournament. But ever since he got back with Kate, his brother's been a ghost.
52:37 Matt Forde? Harry tosses the phone down and opens the car's well-stocked fridge, pulling out a bottle of vodka.
52:44 Matt Forde? If Wills wants to play house, screw him. Harry can make his own fun. But as he glances out of the window, his heartbeat quickens. Beside the entrance to a nearby underpass are several photographs of his mother, surrounded by wilting bouquets. Harry moves his gaze to the small sign above them. Pont de Laumé.
53:07 Matt Forde? His stomach lurches. This is the tunnel where Mummy died, just over ten years ago.
53:13 Alice Levine? Oh my god.
53:14 Matt Forde? Stop the car! He locks eyes with his driver in the rear-view mirror, who dutifully nods and pulls over. Then, before he can talk himself out of it... I want you to drive me through the tunnel. The chauffeur's eyes stay on him, uncertain. But Harry holds his gaze. He digs his fingers into the leather seat as the car turns round.
53:36 Alice Levine? Oh, this is so traumatic.
53:38 Matt Forde? Then he feels the slightest jolt in the suspension as it glides over the tiny ridge marking the tunnel's entrance.
53:47 Matt Forde? He watches each concrete pillar zip by, his heart pounding.
53:56 Matt Forde? And then he's back in the Paris night, as if nothing happened. Pull over, please. Harry's thudding heart settles as the car comes to a halt. Then suddenly, all the grief he's tried to drink and smoke away for the last ten years seems to engulf him. He pushes open the car door and stumbles out. He feels the contents of his stomach rise up through his throat and burst from his mouth. As he retchers onto the pavement, he realises he didn't want closure at all. That he'd secretly been harboring, clinging to, conspiracy theories that Mummy was still alive, hiding somewhere until it was safe to make contact. He grapples for his phone.
54:41 Speaker 02 Harold, how's the rugby? Willie, I, I went through the tunnel, Mummy's tunnel.
54:49 Matt Forde? There's a long pause.
54:51 Speaker 02 I did that too, a little while ago.
54:55 Matt Forde? Harry's head spins. How could Willie do something so big and not tell him?
55:02 Speaker 02 It felt really strange, you know? Being in there, almost like...
55:07 Matt Forde? Wills cuts him off.
55:09 Speaker 02 Sorry, Harold, I've got to go. Kate and I are meeting Pa and Camilla for dinner. We'll chat once you're back, okay?
55:17 Matt Forde? The phone clicks off. For a moment, Harry stays rooted to the spot, clutching his mobile. He can't face getting back in the car. Instead, he starts to run, out into the Paris night. His smart trainers pound the cobblestones, his lungs burn. All he wants is to keep moving, to outrun the pain, outrun the knowledge that he's still that scared little twelve-year-old lying in that bed, his father standing over him with no clue how to navigate the future, no older brother to guide him, and no idea where to go next.
56:04 Matt Forde? From Audible Originals and Samistat Audio, this is the first episode in our series, Harry v. Wills.
56:11 Alice Levine? A quick note about our dialogue. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.
56:18 Matt Forde? If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Spare by Prince Harry, Battle of Brothers, William, Harry and the Inside Story of a Family in Tummult by Robert Lacey, and The Palace Papers by Tina Brown.
56:30 Alice Levine? And if you'd like to get in touch with us, you can email us at [email protected] and we love hearing from you.
56:37 Matt Forde? British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.
56:39 Alice Levine? And also me, Alice Levine.
56:41 Matt Forde? Written by Wendy Grandita. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford.
56:46 Alice Levine? Our story editor was James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. Our engineer was Jai Williams. For Samistat, our series producer was Chica Ayers. Our assistant producer was Louise Mason. Our senior producers were Joe Sykes and Dashilis Atsina. Executive producers for Audible with Theodora Leludis and Estelle Doyle.
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