“I have no interest in mediocrity!” Adam Pearson on having confidence to be extraordinary

Did you have dreams of being extraordinary when you were a kid? For many of us, adult life starts chipping away at those big hopes and goals, but actor and disability campaigner Adam Pearson has no interest in being ‘normal’ or ‘mediocre’. In this chat with Fearne, Adam explains how never having the luxury of being invisible – he was born with neurofibromatosis – has given him confidence to really stand out. So how did he go from being bullied at school to boldly starring on the big screen? They talk about systemic ableism within the film and TV industries, and Adam explains why it shouldn’t be the job of the disability community to fix a problem they didn’t create... but often is. Plus, why is it that it’s always the movie villains who are facially disfigured, never the heroes? Plus, the three types of people you need in your life: a truth teller, a confidant, and a ride or die... If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Jono Lancaster https://pod.fo/e/189485 Samantha Renke https://pod.fo/e/132092 Sophie Morgan https://pod.fo/e/112ccd Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that really celebrates individuality. Today, I'm chatting to Adam Pearson.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  To embrace the normal, to accept mediocrity. I have no interest in being mediocre. I just find it such an unremarkable word. What kid stands up on career day, looks at a teacher dead in the face and says, just want to be normal? You know, wife, two kids, dog, 36 grand a year. And that's what I want, Mrs McMullin. Yep, and then sits back down again. Why won't you feel normal if you were born to be extraordinary?

• 1:05Fearne Cotton?

  Oh crikey. Do you know what? I'm not going to lie, I've been burning the candle at both ends. I'm so tired today. Do you know what I've been doing though this year? I've been pushing myself out of my comfort zone and I've been doing a lot more socialising than I normally would at this time of year and I'm really enjoying it. And what I'm finding is, yes, I might be a little bit ropey around the edges today. Shouldn't have drunk Negronis on a Monday night. Shouldn't, shouldn't have done that, but I don't regret it. It was so fun and I had such a laugh with some friends and I need to do that. I need to like let loose. And actually, what this time of year where work's really busy and there's all this sort of social stuff going on, it's made me remember that it's all right that life can be a bit messy. It can be a bit messy.

• 1:50Fearne Cotton?

  I can wake up and have big eye bags and be a bit of a hot mess trying to get the kids' breakfast together and just about scramble through work because I shouldn't be so serious all the time, just being all serious and doing work stuff. So that's where my head's at. I'm embracing the mess. I'm feeling a bit bloody tired, but actually, I'm really happy. And that's all that counts. It's all about dropping the perfection, isn't it, at the end of the day? I hope you're feeling all right, and if you're not, doesn't matter. You might feel better tomorrow or next week when we're back here, so don't worry about it. So let's talk about Adam Pearson, who I absolutely adore. He's a brilliant human being.

• 2:30Fearne Cotton?

  He was born with neurofibromatosis and is now an award-winning disability rights campaigner, actor and speaker, bloody good actor. He's presented a number of incredible documentaries, including Adam Pearson Freak Show and The Ugly Face of Disability Hate Crime. And the latest film he's starring in, which I urge you to see, is called A Different Man. This film is so beautiful. And as you'll hear when I chat to Adam, I loved his character Oswald. He plays this really vibrant, vivacious, hilarious character who bursts onto the screen. And actually, as many, many of the reviews have said, he is the star of the show. There's something so utterly charming about his character in this film.

• 3:14Fearne Cotton?

  You're going to absolutely love it. We talk about a lot in this chat. We talk about systemic ableism within film and TV, which is still rife. And I think that really hit home in this chat. We talk about being bullied at school and we look at the point in life where dreaming of being extraordinary, when you're sort of, you have those childlike dreams, when that gets beaten out of you, which I'm sure we've all experienced at some point.

• 4:10Speaker 03

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• 5:40Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 6:04Fearne Cotton?

  Adam Pearce, well, I'm so happy to have you on the podcast and just to get to hang out with you and chat to you today.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  It's a pleasure to be here.

• 6:11Fearne Cotton?

  So, we actually met at St. James's Palace, which makes us sound quite important, actually.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  We are important.

• 6:17Fearne Cotton?

  We are important.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  We are important.

• 6:19Fearne Cotton?

  We met there, and we had such a good chat, and we've stayed in touch, which I'm so glad about.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:24Fearne Cotton?

  But so much has happened since. This was maybe three years ago. And one of the the big successes has been this extraordinary film, A Different Man, that you've co-starred in, which I just found almost indescribable. It's such a unique film with some really brilliant messages and surprising moments. And it's thoroughly entertaining as well. This role was actually written for you by the director and writer Aaron, who you've been working with for some time. Now, Aaron grew up with a cleft palate, so he he has an understanding of facial disfigurement. That must have made the process much more interesting for you.

• 7:06Fearne Cotton?

  I'm imagining that you could have those deep conversations before starting this film.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. I think often when we see disfigurement in in movies, it's written by people who don't have experience of it, be it personal or even adjacent experience. And the the portrayals tend to fall into one of three archetypes, the villain, the victim or the false hero. And so because Aaron's had that experience and has grown up watching movies, he understands the stereotypes, knows how to subvert them, and wants to almost change the the narrative. And we, me and Aaron, met in 2017, when I I did his um second film, Change for Life.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  He'd he'd written this film and he'd written this character called Rosenthal, who was British, had neurofibromatosis type one, with no knowledge that I even existed. And then he went and saw me in Under the Skin. I was just like, that's that's Rosenthal. And reached out to my people. And and he he didn't even know if I could like act, because I'm I'm only in Under the Skin for like a whip stitch.

• 8:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but that is an iconic scene in that film.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  It's become iconic, but also I've had no acting training. Business economics is my background.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Academically, so it's a case of, oh, can, can he do this?

• 8:35Fearne Cotton?

  Mm.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  I don't know, we'll have to find out.

• 8:37Fearne Cotton?

  Like, I'm in a really big film.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, and then, then you, then you're on a, on a plane going to New York to shoot Change Your Life. And I should have read the script before I got on the plane, but I had seven hours to kill. So that's when I did it. And, you know, that did well, and we, we toured with that, and then he asked me if I'd work with him again. And I had no problem being like ding ding, round two, absolutely. And then I got the script for A Different Man in March twenty twenty two. Read it straight away, loved it, was like, because I know Aaron, I know how he writes and how he thinks. And then, and then July, we're in, back in NYC, shooting again.

• 9:16Fearne Cotton?

  It's so brilliant, and obviously because of how he writes and because of how, well, you have a personal relationship with him. You've created this incredible character that isn't the victim, isn't any of those stereotypes that you've talked about. Those, those themes are explored, but you were this incredibly electrifying character who comes on screen, singing karaoke, is the life and soul of the party. What was it like to play Oswald and to, to bring that character to life?

• 9:46Speaker 02

  As an actor, you, you always want to show range and, and flex a little. And the reason, or one of the reasons Aaron wrote that character in that way is, he thought my performance in Change Your Life as Rosenthal went really underrated. Because I'm quite a shy introvert, and people assume that's who I am anyway. And anyone that knows me or gets to know me will find out very quickly, nothing could be further from, from the truth. We, uh, we shot a lot of change in, um, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And we, we sound like this, this bar, and we had like a lot of disabled kind of cast members. So all these out of towners with disabilities walking into a bar, people like kind of look around and like, what the hell's going on?

• 10:31Speaker 02

  And then I, I panicked and went, this is my bar now. And everyone went with it.

• 10:37Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just completely made the statement. And, and yeah, just to rock up, let's be more myself with the volume turned way, way up.

• 10:48Fearne Cotton?

  Way, I loved it.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Like yoga, saxophone.

• 10:52Fearne Cotton?

  The yoga bit, I mean, you're wearing a kaftan, walking through the park.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Is that what it's called? I keep calling it a mu mu. But yeah, I know there's a name for it.

• 10:59Fearne Cotton?

  Mu mu kaftan. But it's, oh, it's just, it's such a great character and, and Oswald brings so much to the film. Now, of course, you, you've mentioned three really successful films that you've been in and you're having this extraordinary, a very varied, successful career in acting. Yet, we know that there is still so much systemic ableism within the TV and film industry.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:25Fearne Cotton?

  Um, I don't feel like the surface has even been scratched with that one and we're not looking at that enough at all. I've heard you say in interviews before, out of 29 Oscar nominated films with the portrayal of disability, only two of the actors out of that lineup were actually disabled.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:45Fearne Cotton?

  And if you were to change the metrics to race or gender, it would be instantly seen as utterly unacceptable.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:54Fearne Cotton?

  So what's going, why are we, what's, I mean, it, it seems like it shouldn't fall on your shoulders or anyone's shoulders to have to go, I need to fix this. It just shouldn't be happening in the first place.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  No, but on one hand, there is the argument that it isn't the job of the disabled community to fix a problem they didn't create.

• 12:10Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  But then if someone doesn't do it, no one's going to. I don't think no one's gonna wake up in the morning and suddenly have it figured out. And so I think there's a lot of polarizing and divisive rhetoric at the moment around any kind of minority politics. So I wanna kind of get into the middle and be like, okay, let's all talk about this. Let's all, let's all stop shouting ableist and snowflakes from our own little ivory towers and just come and have a conversation. I mean, equally, equality isn't something I will negotiate. How we get there absolutely is, because it's gonna take time. And I'd rather take a bit longer with it and get it right than rush

• 12:55Speaker 02

  it through and have it have a lot more short timings than would be necessary. And I think, again, it it's heading in the right, the right direction. And we need more people behind the scenes as well as on screen.

• 13:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Because it's a cyclical thing. If we're not getting it right off camera, we're never gonna get it right on camera. And we also need just clear pathways for progression for disabled talent in the industry. There's a lot of schemes that put disabled people in jobs, but not a lot that'll put disabled talent in careers. And there's a world of difference between those two things. So, yeah, I I'd encourage people, disabled people not to take no for an answer, and be as resilient and and persistent as you feel you can be on on any given day, because it's not, it's not a continuum. Even I have like good days

• 13:51Speaker 02

  and bad days, I'm just not in the mood to fight or have the chats or go on X that day. And then if you're at the top, um, look for disabled talent, because, because they're out there. The idea that there haven't been any Oscar winning disabled actors, because they're simply not there, is is ridiculous. I could cast most of Disney's upcoming projects from my mobile.

• 14:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  So, yeah, let's not kid ourselves. Let's let disabled talent get in the room, audition and like blow the bottom soft casting directors.

• 14:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  And wind up on screen. Cause I don't wanna go too far the other way either. I don't wanna put disabled people in roles that they're not ready for. I think if you can't do the job, you shouldn't get the job. I have no problem with that statement whatsoever. But it's the lack of opportunity that riles me.

• 14:47Fearne Cotton?

  And also, if you are on screen, it's also looking at the tone of the role. And, you know, your portrayal in A Different Man is a prime example of that, where you're not playing any of those tropes that we've discussed. You're playing this vibrant character who happens to have facial disfigurement. It's not because of, it's not the reason that you're there. You're just this amazingly vibrant character. And it's casting people in a role to play a character that fits into the story, without question.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, where the disability isn't the raison d'etre for them being there. I wanna get into doing more films just because I'm bloody good at my job.

• 15:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  And not because they need a disabled guy. What if, what if we write a character who wasn't disabled? But then someone saw me and thought, cool, let's have him be that character. And we're slowly, slowly getting there. I think guys like Peter Dinklage have done the world of good. So disabled actors in, in the industry. And then you've got legends like Martin Mattlin, who've been like killing it since, since the eighties. But I still would like to see more.

• 15:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Who are in like good roles with good directors. And the word that really drives my gears is when people say, oh, but isn't it a risk? And it's like, no, I'm, I'm not a risk, I'm, I'm an asset.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  And so let's, you know, park that for one second and yeah, there's all these excuses that are slowly starting to wear thinner and thinner and thinner, the more we see disability on screen.

• 16:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  And eventually the dam's gonna break and there's gonna be loads of disabled talent coming in. I mean, not, hopefully not too many, because I've still gotta work.

• 16:37Fearne Cotton?

  Just a few.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Enough where I'm still the best, but not too many, where everyone works out I'm an idiot, right?

• 16:46Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, we're gonna bear that in mind. Um, I mean, one of the big problems is something that you have touched on already, and that is the fact that we're still seeing in films, most famously James Bond, the bad guy, the villain with facial scars, disfigurement. And that's become just something that, you know, for years we're all just so accepting of and it's, it's not okay, but, but there doesn't seem to be much progression there. And, you know, we, we know there are many people challenging this. Jono Lancaster, who's sort of in our little happy place family and a friend of mine has done really great work in.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  I, I love Jono.

• 17:20Fearne Cotton?

  I love Jono and, and he's really called out, you know, specific TV shows for doing it very recently, like SNL did it not long ago.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Yes, with that sketch, that, um.

• 17:30Fearne Cotton?

  It's still happening, that stupid sketch.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Unusable man or whatever it was.

• 17:33Fearne Cotton?

  It was just really not okay, but it, I don't know, I'm sort of lost for words because it shouldn't be happening still.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Well, there's, it's three in a row now for Bond, which in a franchise that's made such significant progress in terms of its portrayal of women.

• 17:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  I don't know why we're, we're still here with that, but I don't wanna blanket ban it either, it's just there's no balance here. Where, where's the good guy or the hero with the disfigurement? If we'd have had that running through it at the same time, I'd have much less of a. Of a a problem with it. So it's like the lack of balance to the whole thing. And it has a real world knock on.

• 18:23Fearne Cotton?

  Course.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Effect to how people like myself or Jono or I don't know, Phil the Swift or or Sam Rent get perceived in in the real world, because not everyone has that kind of cognitive dissonance to separate fiction from from reality. Not everyone in the moment can suspend their disbelief enough. And also, we're all, whether we choose to admit it or not, products of our environment. And what we take in or affect what we put out. That's just psychology one on one.

• 18:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, of course, whi- which is why this needs to change ASAP. And these conversations, as I'm sure arduous as they are for you at times, because you're having to say things that are so unbelievably obvious, are important, because there will be people out there that, you know, are still casting those roles or haven't given it a thought. And the the ramifications of of what that means to people.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  But then people don't know what they don't know, right? And it's all progress. And I I go into these conversations with the attitude, first time every time. Where every time I have it, I act like it's the first time I've said it. Because to the person I'm talking to, it's more than likely the first time they've heard it. So if I go in with a, oh, again, kind of attitude, then I don't think that's going to be conducive of of change. So.

• 19:46Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I think a little bit of patience goes a a long way. And you win more friends with honey than you do with piss and vinegar.

• 19:56Fearne Cotton?

  It's a fact. But also, you you're putting that message out there by just being a bloody good actor and climbing the ladder of Hollywood or what whatever ascent it is that you're on.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, or trying to, like, one one day at a time, one day at a time. I think finally, my mother believes I'm saying this.

• 20:16Fearne Cotton?

  Did that take some convincing?

• 20:17Speaker 02

  It it took. I think Berlin, when we did the international premiere, with the massive red carpet. I think that sounded like the penny's rod. For, for her.

• 20:28Fearne Cotton?

  That's so good. I mean, I loved watching your mum talk on your horizons documentary, My Amazing Twin. She just seems like a lovely, brilliant woman.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, she is.

• 20:39Fearne Cotton?

  She's so lovely.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  She is, and, and it's good now because she saw me at my worst for about twenty one years. So the fact that now I get to see him at my best is sort of like, eh, you did it mum.

• 20:50Fearne Cotton?

  It's great. It's so good. Let's talk about your twin Neil. So he also has neurofibromatosis, but it presents differently. So, so talk to us about Neil's situation.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  So Neil has short term memory loss and, and epilepsy. So he used to get himself in like really good routines so that he like remembers to take his tablets and, and he's got to keep himself like really well regimented. And he's also got that support network there with like, you know, me mum and like close friends that are, are aware. But also have the time and the patience to, to deal with it. Just to keep him in check and be like, oh, have you done this today? Have you done this? Is this in, in your like diary? Like the amount of money we've spent on like technology and apps and things to try and like get him into good routines and some, some of it sticks, some of it, some of it doesn't.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  But he does remarkably well under the circumstances.

• 21:52Fearne Cotton?

  And that was for him discovered a little bit later down the line, right? Because how old were you when, when you were diagnosed? You were a small kid?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Five, yeah, yeah. We were both diagnosed at five. But Neil's memory loss didn't become a sting until he was fourteen. We, we went out one night to like a youth group and then when we got home, he couldn't remember where we'd been. And we just saw at the time, he's either tired because it had been a long, long day. Or he was just like messing about, you know, having a bit of a joke with us all. And then the next morning, still very sort of like forgetful and vacant and what have you. And so then we trick him for like scans and and what have you. And and yeah, here here we are. And I think kind of, you know, knowing what it is is like half the battle.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  And then I think often I always say autonomy with with any anything is so important. Because once you know the devil that you're dancing with and the dance you're doing, you know what steps to take to bring the whole thing together.

• 22:57Fearne Cotton?

  He seems to be really thriving. He's got a job that he's enjoying and he's he's making it work.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's he's also a nice guy.

• 23:06Fearne Cotton?

  He seems lovely.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  He he's the nice one out of the two of us.

• 23:10Fearne Cotton?

  I think you're both pretty nice.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Ah, I have my moment, I have my moment.

• 23:13Fearne Cotton?

  Have you turned into a diva since you've been all these red carpets?

• 23:15Speaker 02

  Oh, I've always been a diva. The people, people just have time for it now.

• 23:22Fearne Cotton?

  Um, your mum said in that documentary that you've both worn your disabilities with broad shoulders and that you both have a really good attitude to life and what you want to achieve. Where does that attitude come from? Is it your mum?

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. And and dad. I'd be as shallow a man I am if it wasn't for two really supportive parents that wouldn't let me take no for an answer.

• 23:46Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, that's so important.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  No, completely. Having that network is is everything.

• 23:53Fearne Cotton?

  You have something um in common with me in terms of how your love and desire to work in TV was sparked. We were both in the audience of Live and Kicking as children.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  We were.

• 24:06Fearne Cotton?

  Ah, it was like one of the best days of my life. You had that experience. So talk to me about that. You're because like for me, it's like one of my fondest memories. You're sitting in that studio. It's actual real life. You can't believe it. What went through your mind at that point when you were sat there?

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Well, there were all these like people there and all all this like whirring and clicking and and TV has always fascinated me as a kid. And then to see the mechanics of it happening live on something you would be watching at home anyway. And John Bamford's over there, Emma Ward is over there, there's Andy Spelt with an I, Peters.

• 24:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Over there, there's Kevin Simon dressed like God, and knows of doing pop videos with the boy band Two Thirds.

• 24:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  And, yeah, it was like wild.

• 24:48Fearne Cotton?

  So brilliant. I had exactly the same thing. I was like, I, I wanna do that.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:53Fearne Cotton?

  I wanna do that. So you're, from that point, you're, you know, like me, you're dreaming big, you know you wanna work in TV. You actually started off researching and doing casting for TV shows initially.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, development, research and casting.

• 25:06Fearne Cotton?

  And you went along to the audition or submitted to get an audition for Under the Skin as a joke?

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely. I was casting series two of The Undateables at the time. And then the charity Changing Stasis sent an email where it kind of, oh yeah, this casting agency have been in touch. They're working on a new Jonathan Glazer film. They want the guy with the disfigurement to be in it. If you're interested, call this lady. And I was like a business grad from Brighton. I'd written like essays on Jonathan Glazer's adverts, cause I think he's a genius. And so I was like, well, I've got to throw my name in, right? Sort of like, still sort of like jokingly, cause they're never gonna hire me, I'm an idiot. And, yeah, it all got really serious really quickly.

• 25:53Fearne Cotton?

  And you thought what at this point?

• 25:55Speaker 02

  I was, well, whenever they go, okay, what we want you to do next is X. I was like, yeah, can definitely screw that up. And so, oh yeah, can you just write a little bit about yourself and send it over? And I didn't have time, so I sent my CV. And the opening line of my CV at the time was, my name is Adam Pearson, I'm the best in the world at what I do. And no further explanation as to what I do. And they loved that. So they were like, okay, can you put a clip of yourself on YouTube for us to see how you move? And, and, and talk and what have you. And so if you go onto YouTube and type in me, Adam Pearson, two thousand and eleven, it's there.

• 26:33Fearne Cotton?

  Brilliant.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  And I think I insult both my employers, Star Signs, Ziegans, and then a Yorkshire Terrier appears in my arms out of nowhere. And I was like, yeah, that'll get rid of them. Nope. And then had to go to the American church on Tottenham Court Road to meet Jonathan, so one sign all hurrah. Um, I had to cross one road, one road, hit by a cab and broke my leg.

• 26:55Fearne Cotton?

  What?

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Hmm. And like broke it, broke it, like knee and foot pointing different ways. And then adrenaline kicks in and I call him and like, hey, funny story, been hit by a cab. I think my leg's broken. I'm still really keen. Don't think I'm not keen. I'm just gonna be five minutes late.

• 27:11Fearne Cotton?

  Five minutes late?

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he just goes, okay. Then I call my mom and I'm like, yeah, I've been hit by a cab. My leg's broken. And she's like, oh, see what you see, our son. Just really casually. Like, it was, it was always gonna happen in her head. And then so I saw twenty minutes. So I'm in, under a taxi in just my pants because they've cut me out of my clothes.

• 27:33Fearne Cotton?

  Brilliant.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Hi, hi, this giraffe arse on morphine. And uh, he's come down me and been like, and he said, and again, I've only been told this by colleagues.

• 27:44Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Cause morphine.

• 27:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Apparently the conversation went, him, bloody hand, Adam, I didn't realise you did your stunt work. To which I apparently replied, mate, do I look like I've got a fucking stunt double?

• 27:58Fearne Cotton?

  This is, this is ridiculous.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  And, and then, and my mom can verify it's true as well. Cause it does sound like every Mr Bean episode at the same time.

• 28:07Fearne Cotton?

  It's wild.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  And then he came to see me the next day in UCL and I was waiting for surgery. I've got like a rod and screws.

• 28:15Fearne Cotton?

  Oh god.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Now, yeah, one step closer to Iron Man. And yeah, formally offered me the role.

• 28:21Fearne Cotton?

  Wow, wow. I mean, it's, it's an extraordinary entry into the world of film.

• 28:28Speaker 02

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• 28:32Fearne Cotton?

  It's so good.

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• 30:45Fearne Cotton?

  Looking at your whole story, and I've heard you talk on the Horizon documentary about school being rough, you not enjoying it, being bullied and singled out and having a really rough time.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:58Fearne Cotton?

  How, because there'll be people listening to this who don't feel confident, who don't feel they can change the path and the course of their life because they don't feel like they've had a good start in life or that they've been bullied and that's stuck with them, the rhetoric or whatever it is has stuck with them. I'm sure it wasn't an overnight thing, but how have you gone from a kid that was severely bullied at school to now someone who is really confident in their skill set, is showing up to these huge, high-pressured gigs that you're working on, feeling confident?

• 31:33Speaker 02

  A, it's, as you say, like, one, one day at a time. You, you wake up every day and try and make that day better than yesterday, however yesterday looked. I, I think there's a lot to be said for freedom in, in forgiveness, like, sure, school was rough, but eventually you've got to let that go, but also let them go from that as well. And now as a, a jaded thirty-nine-year-old man, I, I don't judge anyone on who they were when they were like fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, because it's unfair and unreasonable. And also, I, I wasn't perfect in those situations either. I still wouldn't want people to think the same way of me, for the person I was when

• 32:18Speaker 02

  I was fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. And I, I, I heard this in a Wrestlers Hall of Fame speech.

• 32:26Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Adam Cotten, Wrestler's under name Edge, and, and rarely does stuff stick with me. I'm, I'm not a guy that hears a quote and goes, aha, that is my mantra now. Um, but he, he said, decide what to be and go be it.

• 32:42Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I like that. It's very straightforward.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's remarkably straightforward. Some might argue too straightforward, but then sometimes we overcomplicate things.

• 32:52Fearne Cotton?

  I think we do all the time.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  And we get in our, I, I get in my own head a lot when I'm like on, on my own.

• 32:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, me too.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  And I'm like, ah, and, you know, sometimes you just gotta take the plunge and, and jump in and be like, kind of, ah, but what, what if it, what if you suck it up? Just be like, well, then try again and suck it up less.

• 33:14Fearne Cotton?

  I like that.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Well, I, I think we look at failure as, as the opposite of success, when actually it's the journey towards it.

• 33:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  And, you know, as long as you're staying upwards, then, then stay along.

• 33:28Fearne Cotton?

  But failing upwards, I guess, requires, you've got to have resilience, because when you are, you know, down in the dumps, on your knees, it's, it can be hard to pick yourself back up, but that's something that you've consistently been able to do, would you say?

• 33:44Speaker 02

  I, I reckon, yeah. And it's, that comes from having a good network of, of people around you. And I was lucky that I had a good supporting family around me. And I've gotten better at it as I've gotten older. I think I spent most of my twenties trying to make loads of friends. And then most of my thirties trying to make most of them leaves. And I think you need, you need, there are three kinds of people you need in, in your life. You need like a truth teller.

• 34:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  You need like a confidant. And you need a ride or die. You need that one person you can call at like three in the morning, like mid panic attack. And the first thing I say is, I'm on my way.

• 34:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so important. And the truth teller is really important as well. I think that's an important role for all of us to have a friend that we know isn't gonna dispense advice that is based on their own nostalgia or just something they need to rant about. It's they're gonna tell you exactly what's going on.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and what you need to hear and what you want to hear are two very different things.

• 34:49Fearne Cotton?

  Mm hmm.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  And I, I've got, one of my friends I love a bit, Monica. If I'm getting a bit too carried away with myself. She'll just be like, you're being a dick, wind your neck in.

• 35:02Fearne Cotton?

  We all need a Monica.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  We all, everyone needs a Monica.

• 35:05Fearne Cotton?

  We all need a Monica. She's keeping your feet firmly on the ground.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:09Fearne Cotton?

  At this very exciting time.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 35:11Fearne Cotton?

  It's no bad thing. Um, in, again, I keep referencing the Horizon documentary, but I found it incredibly insightful and, and interesting. And you say in the documentary, it's a very powerful scene, the documentary, that the word normal sends shivers up your spine.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Oh, completely.

• 35:30Fearne Cotton?

  It's a word that is thrown about extremely flippantly and inserted into all sorts of sentences in different contexts. And again, without much thought as to the damage it could be doing.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  Well, I I don't even think it's doing damage. It's not the the damage that it does that sends shivers up my spine. I just find it such an unremarkable word.

• 35:55Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Like, what kid stands up on career day, looks their teacher dead in the face and says, just wanna be normal? You know, wife, two kids, dog, thirty six grand a year, and that's what I want, Mrs. McMarlin. Yep, and then sits back down again. To embrace the normal, to accept mediocrity.

• 36:14Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  And I I have no interest in being mediocre.

• 36:18Fearne Cotton?

  No. Yeah, I love that. I, you're so right. Uh, you know, especially when we're kids, it's really interesting to look at a child's mindset because you're so free of any social conditioning or um not, there's not too much influence around that age. And of course, you do put your hand up in class and you wanna be an astronaut or something that feels extraordinary, and then that gets sort of beaten out of you.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, completely. I think I wanted to be Batman. I think that was my answer.

• 36:46Fearne Cotton?

  There's still time.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  There there is absolutely still time. And this is, and this is an era of like Adam West Batman.

• 36:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Which is an amazing thing. Oh, go, if you haven't seen it, look up Adam West Batman and jump down that YouTube rabbit hole with me. Um, I think he got banned from a town in America because he dragged his way through it. And he got like a sixteen year ban from somewhere.

• 37:10Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my god.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  In the seventies.

• 37:13Fearne Cotton?

  That's incredible.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  I I mean, more, I mean, more power to him.

• 37:16Fearne Cotton?

  More power to him. I mean, and I've learned something new today as well, which is good. Um. I mean, there will be people out there that still feel utterly paralyzed by the fact that they don't feel normal. And this counters what we've just said, but there will be people out there that feel that there is something inherently off with them. It could be something that's happened in the past, something mentally that's holding them back.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, but i- if you don't feel normal, then lean lean into that. Why wouldn't you feel normal if you were born to be extraordinary?

• 37:48Fearne Cotton?

  Definitely clipping that up and listening to it daily. But that's the sort of, I don't know, I I think that's the sort of attitude and it's it's an important sentence that we don't hear enough.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:00Fearne Cotton?

  To lean into those parts of yourself that you don't feel are, you know, fitting into the norm.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  And then also just go find other people who aren't normal and like make friends with them. Like some of my best mates are guys who I play, fully grown men by the way, who I play D and D within the pub on like a regular basis.

• 38:21Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I'm I'm a elf, dark elf road assassin called Apollo Archon Jones.

• 38:28Fearne Cotton?

  I don't even know what that means.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  My friend Mark's a red dragon boy called Smash. Um, yeah, that that's how we get our, and it's also just a really good like mental health break.

• 38:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Right, it means I have to think about work for six hours and can pretend to be someone else for a while.

• 38:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  And therefore my actions in in game, not in real life, have no consequences.

• 38:51Fearne Cotton?

  That's quite freeing.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  It's absolutely freeing. I think D and D is one of the best kind of mental health checks I have. That and Magic the Gathering.

• 38:59Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. So, I mean, you seem to be striking a pretty good balance considering you've got so much going on work wise. And it's been an incredibly busy year of the press run for the film and I'm sure whatever's coming next, future wise, it's pretty relentless.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've got a few interesting things like in at the moment that we're reading and negotiating and and thinking about, which is exciting. But it's a case that I don't want to do too much. I think I've had to recently master the art of saying no.

• 39:31Fearne Cotton?

  It's a hard one.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  And knowing when enough is is enough and when I need a break.

• 39:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  So I'm off to New York in December for the Gotham Awards, because the film was nominated and I'm nominated for supporting.

• 39:45Fearne Cotton?

  Congratulations. It's amazing.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Thank you. And and we were asked to go to Sao Paulo, Comic Con, straight after, because a Latin American releases the film. And I was like, that's a nine hour flight from New York and then an eleven hour flight back to London. And I've already I've already been on sixteen planes this year. And I think at that point I need to just go home and do Christmas.

• 40:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you really do.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Like do December, see people. I've done no Christmas shopping and I'm normally done by now.

• 40:14Fearne Cotton?

  Are you really? I mean, you're, okay, we're the same. I love starting, I'm like, end of October, I'm start, I've written the list, I'm starting.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  Oh, I start in January.

• 40:21Fearne Cotton?

  In January?

• 40:22Speaker 02

  No, I start on Boxing Day. I get all my wrapping paper and Christmas cards on Boxing Day.

• 40:26Fearne Cotton?

  Because the sales.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  They're pennies on the pound.

• 40:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I haven't gone that far.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  I just clear out card factory in Croydon.

• 40:32Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, I love this. Watch out, Croydon. Now, I'm like, I start now-ish, but I'm even still, people say to me, that's not okay that you're starting this early.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Oh, it's completely fine.

• 40:43Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's completely fine. I've got a lot of people to buy for.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Oh, right. And like my, uh, my missus loves Halloween.

• 40:48Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right. You've just done a big Halloween then.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  And, and you've got also a lot of these sort of like rarer Halloween stuff. Like I'll put out like a, um, limited run, like Hello Kitty pop vinyl set.

• 40:59Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, wow.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Of like a zombie, a vampire and a ghost. And I'll pick up all three and just hold one of them back to Christmas.

• 41:06Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, nice.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  And be like, oh, I couldn't get all three. The, the zombie sold out quite, quite quickly. And then I'll give it to her Christmas and be like, ah, I lied.

• 41:16Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. I love it. The other thing I wanted to talk to you about is fame.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:21Fearne Cotton?

  Which is, um.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  It's a sickle beast, isn't it?

• 41:23Fearne Cotton?

  It is. And it's a strange concept. And you've said previously, you know, you've never had the luxury of being invisible.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:32Fearne Cotton?

  And you talk again in the documentary about people staring at you in the street, at worst getting camera phones out to take pictures of you. So you've now got the double whammy of something that was pre-existing that you were having to endure, but now fame piled on top of that.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is what, when, when we were discussing Sebastian's role in the film, we had a really big couple of Zoom meetings. So we could ask him questions and I could be like kind of frank with him. Cause I think honesty is one of the really important parts of the, the creative process. And so unless I was willing to be emotionally driven, visceral with him as my co-star, we have no right to ask an audience to do the same thing. When, when they watch the film. I think that respect between actors and audiences should always be, be mirrored. And I was like, so you might not understand what it's like to have a disagreement. But I, I've always said the two ways to lose your anonymity

• 42:30Speaker 02

  in a society and to become public property are to either have a disagreement or become really famous. So you won't understand my upbringing of pointing, name calling, everyone thinking that you owe them your entire medical story just because you exist. So what you will understand is people thinking they owe you because they saw you in Gossip Girl, like Tonya, or, or what have you. You know what it's like to have the press write things about you and who cares if it's true, we'll deal with that later. And you're doing what it's like to be kind of doc's or, or, or followed home. So sort of lean into that a little bit. And then when you don't think you can lean into it anymore, lean into it more.

• 43:14Fearne Cotton?

  What, what other stuff did you talk about on that call? I'm so interested because I think it can be difficult, especially when you don't know someone particularly well, to have a really frank conversation about things that you might both be worried to say or ask. How, how did that go?

• 43:29Speaker 02

  It went really, really well. We were just like, kind of, yeah, we're both kind of well travelled men. He was born and raised in Romania. Um, he just wanted to get out of there when he was eight and went to somewhere else in Europe. I can't remember off the top of my head and I don't want to disrespect him by getting it wrong. And then they arrived in America when he was 12. And then it's a case of, again, recalibrating and, and adjusting to like your, your new situation and finding what the new ebbs and flows to life are. Was any change with him, Sebastian, moving from Romania to America as a kid when it's

• 44:10Speaker 02

  me and like ever changing medical circumstances? You, you find sort of like the new thing, right? You, you grieve what was lost and you celebrate the new circumstances and crack on with them. And then we also were like, okay, where's your favourite pizza place in New York? What are your favourite films? Sort of connect on that deeper human level. And I chose pizza on Fulton in, uh, Manhattan is amazing.

• 44:39Fearne Cotton?

  Is that the, that's the chosen one?

• 44:40Speaker 02

  That's my one.

• 44:41Fearne Cotton?

  That's your one. But it seems like you, and I've, you know, I've watched countless interviews of you together now, talking about the film. It seems like there's a genuine friendship between you.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's, he's, he's a great guy.

• 44:52Fearne Cotton?

  How brilliant.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  He, he replies to my texts and, uh, I mean, I haven't texted him over the past couple of days because America's busy.

• 44:59Fearne Cotton?

  It's quite busy. He's, um, he's got other stuff to be worrying about, quite frankly.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, he does, yeah.

• 45:06Fearne Cotton?

  He does, but it's, I can really tell, and you can tell on screen, that there's genuine love there. You, you really get each other.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, one time he had a, an event on at the, um, BSI in the South Bank. He had a, a, you know, Apple TV film out, um, Shatter, I think it's called. It's sort of like Crash, like a long con, loads of little stories coming together. It's Crash meets Sin City, it's remarkably good. And I didn't know he was over and my phone rings, his name comes up and I'm not always butted on me. And so I pick, I pick up anyone and I'm like, hello, he's like, Adam, I'm in London, I've got a thing tonight. Come to the hotel. And then it hangs up. And I'm like, well, what, what, like, what, what, what thing, what hotel, like, I need more, I need more information to understand.

• 45:52Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. It's so great. And it is, it's just a remarkable bit of cinema. I'm sure that, you know, the whole team, all of you feel incredibly proud of.

• 46:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:02Fearne Cotton?

  How it's turned out.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, ev- everyone, and I think that's a real collaborative thing. I think everyone rocks up, wanting to make something special and, and beautiful. And we had all these weird time constraints as well. We shot the whole thing in 22 days.

• 46:18Fearne Cotton?

  How come?

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Budget, and also me and Renata had hard outs.

• 46:21Fearne Cotton?

  Right, right, right.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Renata had to go and film, um, Hanley Undead, like a wonderful Norwegian zombie film. And I had Celebrity Antiques Road Trip.

• 46:30Fearne Cotton?

  Which is extremely important.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Extremely important. Couldn't leave Katie Piper and David Harper waiting.

• 46:38Fearne Cotton?

  Did you find any interesting antiques?

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Um, oh, quite, quite a few. I mean, I, I lost, which I was like none too happy about.

• 46:46Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  And then we, we, we, you filmed the ending before you know what's happening at the auction.

• 46:53Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  So we filmed three different takes. Where one where it's either one, one if we drawn and one if caged one. And so the one where I was just like. Woah, yeah, oh, Adam, Peter, oh, Adam. And then the one if we drew was one, at least we had a good day out. And then the one that they, they choose was like caged, we're like, oh, yeah. And then I'm like just shut up and drive.

• 47:21Fearne Cotton?

  Over it by that point.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, over it.

• 47:23Fearne Cotton?

  Wishing you were still in New York, quite frankly.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 47:26Fearne Cotton?

  Um, I'm interested to know, Adam, what is your happy place?

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Oh, my happy place? I don't think I have like one physical place. Though I am quite partial to the Lego store.

• 47:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  In, in Leicester Square.

• 47:42Fearne Cotton?

  You've got a great love for Lego.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  I adore Lego.

• 47:44Fearne Cotton?

  Is it the fact that it just makes you feel super chilled out?

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it chills me out. You're, you're making something, you're not staring at a screen. It's also like a challenge for, for me.

• 47:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  I can't buy like the little like nine ninety-nine things like anymore. It's like the last time I went, I spent a grand.

• 48:03Fearne Cotton?

  Wow, on Lego?

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:05Fearne Cotton?

  What were, what did you get? Like the Harry Potter castle? What was it?

• 48:08Speaker 02

  No, I got the globe, the world map, the Lego NES CRT TV and the grand piano.

• 48:16Fearne Cotton?

  Wow. The most intricate one I've done is a bonsai tree.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Oh, I, I have that. That's the botanical set.

• 48:22Fearne Cotton?

  It's beautiful, isn't it?

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Uh, green or pink?

• 48:24Fearne Cotton?

  Pink.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Correct answer.

• 48:26Fearne Cotton?

  Correct answer. It's such a good one. But it is, it's, it's a beautiful way just to relax and chill out and switch off. There's no screens involved.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  No, and that, that set holds the record for the most frogs in one Lego set.

• 48:38Fearne Cotton?

  Uh, there's so many frogs.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  So many frogs.

• 48:39Fearne Cotton?

  Who knew the flowers were frogs?

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Well, cause that, well, that blossom's called frog blossom.

• 48:43Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, is that why? I didn't know that.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:46Fearne Cotton?

  I've learned loads of things today.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:48Fearne Cotton?

  The Lego store, and that's a pretty good happy place.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  It is, but I'm also happy when I'm just with my mates. Wherever I am, as long as I'm in good company, then that's my happy place.

• 48:58Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, me too, I agree. Well, as I'd imagined, it was a joy talking to you.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  I'm glad to be here.

• 49:05Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm just so happy to watch your career unfold and see where you head next. It's all very exciting.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Same with you.

• 49:11Fearne Cotton?

  Thank you, Adam.

• 49:14Fearne Cotton?

  I love Adam so much, and he got me a bag of Percy Pigs. Because when we were at Buckingham Palace, no, we were at St James's Palace, weren't we? When we were at St James's Palace, the first time I met him, we talked about Percy Pigs for about half an hour. I don't even know why, but he remembered and bought me a pack, which were vegan and thoroughly enjoyed. Thanks, Adam. Now, are you a part of our Happy Place Book Club on Instagram? I do hope so. Let me tell you what we're going to be reading in December. It's She Speaks by Dame Harriet Walters. You know her, she's been in Succession. She's the brilliant British, quite aloof mum, one of my fave characters. She's been in Killing Eve, and she's one of Britain's most esteemed Shakespearean actors. So, having played most of Shakespeare's female characters in this new book,

• 49:55Fearne Cotton?

  she's letting them speak their minds, and it's so brilliant and so clever and looks at so many amazing themes. With new parts of thirty Shakespearean women written in Shakespearean verse and prose, Harriet basically goes between the lines of the plays to let us hear what she imagines, sometimes quite playfully, sometimes probingly, what these women might really have been thinking, or certainly would be thinking today. It says so much about that era in history and how women were viewed. And actually, it says so much about women today. It's really, really clever. And I'm always fascinated by actors that take on Shakespeare. It's not like you just do one Shakespeare play to prove a point. When you do Shakespeare, most Shakespearean actors, they go back.

• 50:40Fearne Cotton?

  They do a big TV show, they go back, they cannot get enough. There's something addictive about it, and I'm keen to know more. So, all of that is wrapped up in this brilliant, brilliant book. I would love if you'd read along with us. It's a really good Christmas present, actually, a good bit of gifting. Come over to our Instagram at Happy Place Book Club and I'll catch you there. And I will, of course, be back here next week with another brilliant human. Until then, a massive thank you again to Adam, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, your ace and extraordinary.

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