What REALLY happens at therapy?

Do you want to make 2025 the year you start therapy? Maybe you’re still a bit hesitant because you’re not completely sure how it works or what it might feel like... Fearne has pulled together a load of Happy Place chats that will help you get a clearer idea of the benefits of therapy, and in turn make you feel bold enough to send that first booking email. Plus, she talks through the ways therapy has really helped her be more at peace with the past, and stop being so horrible to herself too. You’ll hear from Dr Julie and Owen O’Kane on what the point of therapy is (and isn’t!). Leigh-Anne Pinnock has learnt the importance of finding the right therapist for you, and her Little Mix band mate Perrie Edwards explains why she now brings her therapist to work. Then, MMA fighter Molly McCann has used therapy to unlock more sporting and career success after a difficult childhood, and DJ Fat Tony shares how he’s changed as a result of trauma therapy... Listen to Dr Julie’s episode https://pod.fo/e/15d94a Listen to Owen O’Kane’s episode https://pod.fo/e/12cfe4 Listen to Leigh-Anne Pinnock’s episode https://pod.fo/e/205bb3 Listen to Perrie Edwards’ episode https://pod.fo/e/279633 Listen to Molly McCann’s episode https://pod.fo/e/240297 Listen to DJ Fat Tony’s episode https://pod.fo/e/13d831 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. Today, what really happens when you go to therapy?

• 0:35Speaker 02

  You get that sort of bird's eye view on your life, where you get to see that, okay, I'm doing this because of that sort of echo of the past, but it leads to this. And then I go round and round in this cycle.

• 0:45Speaker 03

  Therapy is the choices that you make in your life. Therapy is the boundaries that you create in your life. Therapy should make you feel uncomfortable.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  I said to my therapist, I said, look, I love our sessions, but it's really hard for me to take all of the stuff you're teaching me and use it in everyday life.

• 0:59Speaker 04

  For me, it was really important to have a black woman because sometimes you want to just be able to talk and not feel like you have to explain.

• 1:07Speaker 05

  Because I don't talk about it and I don't look at it, it's been dealt with. You know, like all human beings, we plow, we plow through it, it goes to the sides, builds up and eventually it will come in on top of us.

• 1:17Fearne Cotton?

  I wonder if a few weeks ago, at the beginning of the year, you told yourself that 2025 is the year you're finally going to do therapy. But maybe you're still a bit hesitant because you're not completely sure what happens there and what it might feel like. So today, I've pulled together parts of some Happy Place episodes that I'm hoping will help get you a clearer idea of the benefits of therapy and in turn make you feel bold enough to send that first booking email. I have therapy every week. It's something that I definitely don't want to miss, don't feel I could miss, actually.

• 1:55Fearne Cotton?

  It's helped me. Insurmountably. It's kind of hard to explain. One of the reasons it's helped me is stuff from the past that still troubles me greatly, that I need to constantly find tools to land on some peace with. That's a big one for me. And I think we've all got these little cycles, I guess, and habits we fall into. And mine is to be really bloody horrible to myself. I can be a right asshole to myself internally and berate myself and fall into self-loathing. And some of that is related to the past and some of it is just, I guess, a propensity that I've built up over the years. And therapy massively

• 2:39Fearne Cotton?

  helps me not fall into a self-loathing spiral. It's helped me massively. I'd say it's changed my life, actually, and helps me navigate just the daily stuff today. And I feel extremely fortunate and lucky that I get to go to therapy and also that I've got a bloody brilliant therapist. So, look, first up, Dr Julie. She's going to explain what the point of therapy is and isn't. Then Owen O'Kane is going to pick up on that point with his own thoughts. Spoiler alert, therapy is going to be confronting and fucking uncomfortable. And Leanne Pinnock, she has learned the importance of finding the right therapist for you. You'll also hear from her bandmate Perry Edwards about why she now brings her

• 3:22Fearne Cotton?

  therapist to work. She actually brought her along to that very podcast recording, which I thought was admirable and really cool and bold. And I thought, why have I not done that? MMA fighter Molly McCann has used therapy to unlock more sporting and career success after a difficult childhood. Then a fabulous DJ Fat Tony, he explains how he's changed as a result of trauma therapy.

• 3:49Speaker 06

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• 4:18Speaker 07

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• 4:49Speaker 08

  This week on Help, I sexted my boss.

• 4:52Speaker 09

  And after taking a shower, I used some spray deodorant that belonged to his mother from the cupboard. He took a big sniff of me and says, "Mmm, smells like sex."

• 5:00Speaker 10

  Cast your personal question.

• 5:01Speaker 09

  Yes?

• 5:02Speaker 10

  Do your balls ever just float back up?

• 5:04Speaker 09

  What?

• 5:05Speaker 10

  What? Burnt me playing Millwall the way, and got all my brothers coming down like a Millwall. Yeah, I can't go. I'm going to a matinee of Pride of the Musical.

• 5:17Speaker 09

  Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts.

• 5:24Fearne Cotton?

  Right, here's the show, and I start by asking Dr Julie what we can do when we just can't find a way to like ourselves. Maybe because of mistakes we think we've made, or a particular experience that we've been through.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  I think there are no quick fixes when it's like that. So you can enhance a skill by using some of these exercises. But when there is something in the past that has fundamentally shifted the way that you view yourself or the way that you view the world, there's, you know, no quick fix that's going to suddenly change your beliefs about yourself. And, and so that's when therapy can be really helpful to go through. And sometimes that can, you know, trauma therapy can be necessary to, to go back and sort of rewrite some of those narratives and, and work through and process some of those wounds, you know, when it's really kind of big events in your life or, or learning experiences that happened over. Because also, I think people imagine that a trauma is maybe one big event.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  And when they can't find one of those, they're wondering whether the rest of it counts as a trauma. But, but trauma can happen within small elements of time, small pieces of time in just how you were brought up. So your learning experiences as a child, or the society that you lived in, for example, or how you were discriminated against, or whatever that, you know, whatever the circumstances are, trauma can happen in little tiny pieces over time that chips away at what you believe about yourself and what you believe about the world. Then you get into adulthood and, and it holds you back hugely. You know, it's a survival response that helps you to get by when you're dependent on other people. But as an adult, it then holds you back from being able to function properly.

• 7:22Fearne Cotton?

  And I guess we react in the same way again and again to the point where we believe, well, this is just me. This is how I react to certain situations. This is, there is no changing. That's just who I am. Do you believe it's always possible for somebody to, to change that pattern and that reaction?

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and cognitive analytic therapy is fantastic for that. And I, it, it's really about understanding that the, the cycles that you were in as a child and your sort of key relationships with caregivers and things, and how the way that you responded to people was part of your survival mechanism. So it helped you to get through whatever difficult environment that was. And then that's key learning. So we then go around those same cycles as an adult. But in adult relationships, the dynamics are different and the responsibilities are different. And suddenly those things that were really effective at helping you get through a difficult situation as a child no longer work or actually cause you more problems. And you see that with things like people pleasing.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  You know, people will put every, and it's more than just being a nice person, right? It's putting everybody else first, even to the detriment of your own health and wellbeing. To the point where it causes problems in your own health, but also resentment in relationships and things like that. And struggling to assert your own needs or ask for what your needs to be met. And in, in, in cat therapy, cat therapy for short, so it's cognitive analytic therapy. You literally kind of draw out the cycles of, you know, this happens, then I do this. And the consequence, the unintended consequence that it leads to now. And by doing that, by understand, you get that sort of bird's eye view on your life. Where you get to see that, okay, I'm doing this because of that sort of echo of the past.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  But it leads to this. And then I go round and round on this cycle. Where's the exit? How do I get off? What could I do differently? And it all works in hindsight. So you're talking about what happened last week or the week before. But the more you do that, the more you start to sort of almost visualize that bird's eye view, that formulation in the moment. And when you start to do that, you open this kind of window of opportunity to maybe choose something different and break the cycle. Sometimes you will, sometimes you won't. But again, that's kind of changes slow and stuff.

• 9:33Fearne Cotton?

  But it's the awareness that you can, isn't it? Because I think it's quite humbling to go, oh, look at this piece of paper. I'm quite simple.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:39Fearne Cotton?

  I do that, that and that every time, and then it ends in a pile of shit. And then you go, I don't have to do that. So, so looking at that sort of setup, what, I think maybe we're all getting the result of therapy, if there is such a thing. So I know it's an ongoing process after you've even had a block of therapy. But we're getting that wrong because if we're all thinking, after I've had therapy, I will be happy.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:03Fearne Cotton?

  That is impossible because like you say, it's ever undulating.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:07Fearne Cotton?

  We could be feeling happy right now doing this chat, but then in an hour when you're stuck on the motorway in traffic and you're stressed out or my kid won't do his homework later on, which is very normal circumstance in our house. That then that dissipates and there's another emotion. So. What should, if there is such a thing, the end goal of therapy be? Peace? Contentment?

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I think, I think sometimes those maybe don't even, I remember, I remember a supervisor once saying to me that, you know, the, the best outcome of, of therapy that, that she'd been to was over a year after therapy. So, therapy is almost like a, I don't know, if you do a training course, for example, immediately after finishing that training course, you won't be at your best in using whatever it is you've learned. Several years later of using those things, you'll be even more accomplished than you were at the beginning. So, if you, you know, learn certain things in therapy and then you commit to, to using those in your everyday life and you commit to continuing your, whether it be recovery or something else, then you will get better at doing that over time.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  So, you know, the only way is up in that sense. But, yeah, I, I think we have to kind of steer away from the idea that the top or the most desirable outcome is, I'm gonna feel pleasure and joy all the time. Because actually, it's a pretty, it's a pretty dangerous place to be, right? Because that, you know, when you think about manic episodes, for example, somebody might feel happy all the time, but their life might be falling into pieces around them. So, yeah, and that kind of fruitfulness of, of different emotions and the beauty in different emotions, you appreciate those moments of happiness more or moments of peace more when, you know, example, I, I was away in, in the mountains with my family last week and heights still triggers huge anxiety in me.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  And, and so while I appreciated being there and I was happy to be there, chosen to be there, I still had that level of fear. So I was happy while I was also experiencing anxiety.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  When people think about therapy, they often think about talking. And one of the things I'm arguing about really strongly is therapy is not just about talking, it's one part of it. Therapy is doing.

• 12:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 03

  You know, therapy is about who you surround yourself with. Therapy is the choices that you make in your life. Therapy is the burdens that you create in your life. It's a whole. It's basically an overhaul of your entire life. Therapy should make you feel uncomfortable.

• 12:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  If you're in therapy or you're doing anything that feels lovely and nice and it's all, then you're not having therapy.

• 12:38Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what? That is, I don't think I'd ever really given that a thought or or properly identified that feeling, but one of the most powerful therapies I've done, which is something I know that you also specialise, EMDR.

• 12:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:51Fearne Cotton?

  That is the most uncomfortable therapy I've ever done because I had to face up to stuff that I could barely say out loud.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:58Fearne Cotton?

  That I didn't want to admit was true and I didn't want to relive it because it felt like it might be more real if I had to say these words out loud.

• 13:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:06Fearne Cotton?

  But my god, I am now back driving on the motorway, which I couldn't do for five years, which is a long time sort of, you know, learned behaviour repeated again, nope, too scared, nope, too scared. And the uncomfortableness of the therapy shifted something, it changed something. So I think it is so important that if you are thinking of trying therapy for the first time, or even you using these self sort of soothing, or it goes more than that, but the these sort of empowering techniques.

• 13:34Speaker 03

  Getting started now, getting started.

• 13:36Fearne Cotton?

  That you feel the discomfort and that you just sit with it and it's not nice, but you don't don't abandon it straight away. You've got to go with it.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  It's a brilliant point because it not feeling nice doesn't mean that it's wrong.

• 13:46Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 13:47Speaker 03

  And I think this is the one mistake because we're all kind of primarily hardwired to, you know, it's got to feel good. You know, we're obsessed by feeling good all of the time. I mean, we've both written books on happiness.

• 13:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:59Speaker 03

  But both of our books, you know, it's not just about fluffy happiness, you know, it's it's it's much, much more than that. And I think what we all have to get better at is when the other stuff comes in, the darker stuff, there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. It doesn't mean that there's anything bad about you. It doesn't mean that there's anything terribly, you know, broken or damaged about you. It just means that it's part of your humanity and the more you learn to start working with that stuff, and I know it sounds cliched, but that's where the real magic happens because if if we think something's wrong. Then we run from it.

• 14:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 03

  And of course, with emotions, particularly darker emotions, we think that they're wrong. Actually, they're not. Nothing terrible is gonna happen. I see them as like a signpost. Difficult feeling comes up, you know, instead of running from it, I, you know, I think, all right, I'm gonna be curious about what's happening here.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 03

  What's happening here at the moment. I'm learning, you know, every day I'm learning, even in my own journey, about that openness around, okay, this is absolutely fine. Because I think what most of us do is we get immersed in the story. So if we're feeling fearful, we're feeling low, we're feeling anxious, whatever the context might be, we then connect that to the narrative, the shame narrative, and then that becomes, I'm rubbish, I'm not good enough. I'm crap, whatever the context might be, when actually, that, you know, you need to learn to segregate the two.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  These emotions, these thoughts that are coming up, they're not definitions of who you are. They don't define who you are. What they are is they're simply patterns that are playing out over and over and over again. And the incredible thing about good therapy is it will help you see that you can disconnect more and more and more from those narratives and then kind of disidentify with them.

• 15:42Fearne Cotton?

  Looking to, again, that sort of like top tier level of musician who are sort of global, touring, look like they've got it all figured out. It is really liberating to hear that there are insecurities underneath, that there are, you know, constant cognitive whirrings of questioning yourself. And there was a deeply sad bit in the book where you talk about this period of your career where you were obsessed with the idea of getting a nose job because you felt this discomfort in your own skin. How, how did you get through that period and come out going, do you know what? I actually really like myself.

• 16:19Speaker 04

  I just remember constantly like comparing myself and like always feeling like the least desired. And people will sometimes say, oh, but why did you feel like that? Sometimes it's just a feeling, you know, like it's just a fricking feeling. Um, but yeah, I, I would, I wanted a nose job, and I hate saying it. Oh, I love my nose. I'm so glad I didn't do it. I really love my nose. Like, it's just, it's crazy, but I think I was obsessed with. Like, looking around me and at these Eurocentric beauty features that are considered beautiful, you know? And feeling like I had to look like that to appeal to this audience, this predominantly white audience that we had. And then also a magazine as well, I think that they edited mine in Jade's nose.

• 17:04Speaker 04

  And we were so excited to do this mag and like saw the pictures back and that was a real knock, you know, like you really think that we have to do that to be beautiful. Like you've actually done that to us. Like it was horrible. But all these little things just kind of just like added to it.

• 17:20Fearne Cotton?

  I think Instagram again, and I'm not gonna slag it off entirely because I really like using it and I really, I enjoy learning from it, I like the connection from it, I think it's sometimes just quite fun.

• 17:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:31Fearne Cotton?

  But I think you see on Instagram these certain pictures extremely filtered, you know, whatever, there's certain angles and everything does look extremely the same, it's sort of identikit. And it scares me for my kids massively. And that again might be a bit of a cliche, but it scares me. I'm sort of hoping there'll be an implosion in that generation that just go sod all this, we're not, we're not gonna listen, we're gonna do our own thing and I really hope that happens. Because at the moment it still feels on the edge of eek, there is this pressure for everyone to turn up aesthetically looking a certain way. And we've got to have room for there to be just great diversity in every capacity, in every area.

• 18:14Speaker 04

  I feel like as well, like, kids are getting older quicker.

• 18:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 18:18Speaker 04

  Like when you look at like, I don't know, someone that's like thirteen and they look about twenty. Like that scares the life out of me.

• 18:25Fearne Cotton?

  I know.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  Like, and you know, like when we were growing up, I was old, no, we're not old. It's just when we were growing up and like we didn't have all those filters and whatever, we, we went through like our stages. Whereas now it's like, how can I explain this? Like, there's no like, not ugly stage, but like we, how can I, you know what I'm saying?

• 18:44Fearne Cotton?

  Well, we experimented.

• 18:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:46Fearne Cotton?

  How? I had all the hair colors, all the haircuts, all the awful makeup and dark brown lip liner and just horrific.

• 18:54Speaker 04

  Going straight to this like

• 18:56Fearne Cotton?

  Sophistication, yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  Perfect, quote unquote, like

• 18:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  Look. And yeah, it's scary.

• 19:03Fearne Cotton?

  It is scary, it is scary. I mean, that's the good thing about social media is there is always like a sort of counter narrative that hopefully is running parallel to the stuff that is probably a little bit less helpful, but it's a big subject, we'll see.

• 19:15Speaker 04

  Really?

• 19:16Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you've, you've talked about, you've alluded to therapy already. I know that you started therapy 2013. What made you seek out therapy in the first place?

• 19:25Speaker 04

  Oh gosh, um, I first had it, yeah, I was experiencing all these things in the group, like feeling less than, feeling invisible. Like I wanted to speak to somebody, so I spoke to a lady, it was so lovely and she's like, she's done therapy with us as a group as well. But when I spoke to her, I just, it didn't come to that conclusion, you know, like she couldn't say to me, okay, it probably is because of your skin, like, there was none of that, you know, like there was no like realisation of that. So it wasn't really that helpful for me. And then obviously, yeah, we have had it as a group as well, like, like losing a member and whatever, like we had to obviously, we needed something because it was just such a horrible like moment in time.

• 20:07Speaker 04

  But recently, yes, I am having therapy and I think for me it was really important to have a black woman because sometimes you wanna just be able to talk and not feel like you have to explain, you know, like in the fact that she just gets it, like, is just such a comforting feeling. Because it's exhausting enough talking about race, like it's so tiring and yeah, I just think it was important that I had that.

• 20:35Fearne Cotton?

  And do you, is this something you still regularly do now?

• 20:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, it is. I'm not gonna lie, sometimes I'm like, oh, I've got it today and I get a bit, oh, do I wanna get into things, do I wanna, but then I have it and I'm like, oh my god, I'm so glad I did that.

• 20:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:49Speaker 04

  You know, like it is a scary thing, but it's so necessary.

• 20:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it is. I think going back to even that question of like, who am I? It sort of helps you figure all that out or careless and. It's, you know, it's, it's important. I certainly have that. Or some days I go, I feel great. I don't need to. And that's probably a sign that I really should.

• 21:09Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah, I get that too. It's mad.

• 21:12Fearne Cotton?

  It is, it is. So look, you alluded to it. We don't have to get into it too hugely here, but obviously Jessie came on the podcast not long after she left Little Mix and that was a deeply painful time for you. As well as therapy, how did you navigate that?

• 21:26Speaker 04

  Oh, I think we were really lucky. Like, like me, Jade and Pez, like really stuck together and like, just, like, we were lucky that we had that bond to get each other through it. Um, like the fans were amazing. I felt like, like we were held and obviously we have an incredible team. We had an incredible team so that they were really strong for us too. And yeah, therapy too. We had to have a bit of therapy.

• 21:52Speaker 06

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• 22:22Speaker 07

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone and including dental, vision and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at GetHumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO and PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 22:52Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel.

• 22:53Speaker 11

  And Maisie Adam.

• 22:54Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 22:57Speaker 11

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 22:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 22:59Speaker 11

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 23:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too.

• 23:11Speaker 11

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 23:14Fearne Cotton?

  Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 23:19Speaker 11

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 23:25Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's get back to Perry, Molly and DJ Fat Tony. So you've got this therapist who is seemingly really working out for you.

• 23:34Speaker 12

  Yes.

• 23:34Fearne Cotton?

  Brilliant that you've got her with you when you need her because you shouldn't be having to deal with anxiety and suffering unnecessarily. So, so talk to me about this anxiety. Where, where's that come from? What was the catalyst for that?

• 23:47Speaker 12

  It's, it's random, but it started a good few years ago when me and the girls were in Vegas. So something happened and I'd just started experiencing like panic attacks out of nowhere. And it was really scary and I thought I was dying at the time. Like I thought I was having a heart attack. And then I went to the hospital and they were like, what drugs have you taken? And I was like, nothing. I haven't taken anything. I'm a really good girl. I'm clean. I don't even drink alcohol hardly, but something's happening to my heart. Like I'm gonna die. And I was having a panic attack and then I flew home and from that point on, they just kept occurring like all the time. And I didn't know what was happening. I thought I was literally going insane. Like I even asked my mum if she was going to put me in a mental institute at one point because it was so bad.

• 24:31Speaker 12

  And I couldn't make sense of it all in my head, but I think now it's almost like I'm at the stage where instead of trying to avoid the anxiety, which I do, like as soon as I feel the tingles in my neck and I feel the anxiety creeping in, I stop panicking. And then I spiral, whereas instead I'm trying to learn to like be with the feelings and be like, okay, why do I feel like this? It's obviously something internal is trying to tell me it's protecting me from something, whatever it is. But in this moment, I'm safe and it's fine, but it's hard to rationalise that because my adult just goes offline. And then it's just my little child self like, help me, help me. What is happening? So I think like I said to my therapist, I said, look, I love our sessions, but it's really hard for me to take

• 25:13Speaker 12

  all of the stuff you're teaching me and use it in everyday life. So when the panic occurs, I'm not thinking, oh, what, what, what do I have to do? I'm just like, help me. Like I'd just go off on one. So now. She's obviously coming with me to work to put it into action more.

• 25:31Fearne Cotton?

  That's so great.

• 25:32Speaker 12

  Yeah, because I just think if I'm not facing it head on, I'm avoiding it. I avoid it. I don't leave the house unless I have to. I avoid any situation where I might be in front of my anxiety and I just can't bear it. I hate it so much.

• 25:44Fearne Cotton?

  So what might trigger it? I mean, listening to you speak, I totally get this. Like, I've been there. And I, what I'd like to say, I guess, to you is I've so been there to the point where I stopped doing TV, stopped doing radio. I'm still not doing TV. I don't feel like that's something I necessarily want to leap back into at this point.

• 26:06Speaker 12

  Right.

• 26:06Fearne Cotton?

  But I've gotten myself to a place, maybe over the last seven years, where I'm not having panic attacks.

• 26:12Speaker 12

  Okay.

• 26:13Fearne Cotton?

  I've probably had one in the last six months, maybe more.

• 26:19Speaker 12

  Wow.

• 26:20Fearne Cotton?

  And I was having them all day, every day.

• 26:22Speaker 12

  Right.

• 26:22Fearne Cotton?

  And my anxiety has gone from being sky high to really not present in my everyday life.

• 26:31Speaker 12

  And how did you get there?

• 26:33Fearne Cotton?

  Therapy.

• 26:34Speaker 12

  Yeah.

• 26:34Fearne Cotton?

  And having someone to really validate what I'd been through, what I felt because of the things I've been through. The self beliefs that I'd built up.

• 26:45Speaker 12

  Mmm.

• 26:46Fearne Cotton?

  And to really go, oh no, I, I understand why you would feel this way. And just to have one person say that to me was so powerful. I felt so lucky that I have a therapist, so lucky.

• 26:58Speaker 12

  Sim.

• 26:59Fearne Cotton?

  Because it's just not the case for so many people out there. And I have found it personally, find the right person, life changing.

• 27:07Speaker 13

  Sometimes what I did do was go out on the ale and be an idiot and just trying to escape and have that moment of, on the dance floor, I really am alive and feel safe. And like when I feel music, like that is a bit of a therapy for me. However, I would probably make it quite toxic by getting intoxicated, doing stupid shit, partying for days and just not then protecting myself after it. Or do a go on long runs, do a be disciplined, do a go to the gym. And that was like my coping mechanism, but I did never deal with anything. And then I think, yeah, it just kind of all came to a bit of a. Ahead, do you know what I mean, like about last year or this year, I think I was just like, I kind of can't keep doing that.

• 27:51Speaker 13

  Because you can carp mentalise or however you say the word, you can do that enough, but once the storage is full. It's like if you're a computer and you've got no data, like there's, there's no more storage left, you've got to go and upgrade. And the way by you doing that is going to see the therapist.

• 28:05Fearne Cotton?

  And you can't be on the run forever.

• 28:07Speaker 13

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:08Fearne Cotton?

  You can't, you know, and I think we, we've all done it to an extent. I sometimes wonder if, am I still a bit on the run from stuff I don't want to look at because it's easier. You just go, don't look at that and work really hard at something that you enjoy or whatever feels like escapism. But actually, you can't outrun it. And like you said, you hit a wall and you had to take a deep dive into it. What was that like? Like, obviously you had a really astute awareness of what was going on for me very young age, which I also find deeply interesting. Because that whole nature nurture thing, that makes me think in, in your case, part of you turned up into this world with a brain that worked in that way, that went, I'm not going to do that.

• 28:48Fearne Cotton?

  Because at five, you don't really have the common sense to make an informed decision based on fact. You just kind of go with what's normal, but you kind of know.

• 28:58Speaker 13

  I just think safety, I think I may have been put into positions where I wasn't safe. And I knew in that environment, I wasn't safe, do you know what I mean? I was not protected there.

• 29:14Speaker 13

  So I just knew to not be around that. And my eldest said, you're going to cry today, and I know because I'm proper, like, I'm in the therapy at the minute.

• 29:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, it's a lot. And if you, you know, you don't have to get into this stuff now if it's too much. Because I know what that's like and then you have to go out of the studio after.

• 29:32Speaker 13

  Well, I've got a call at seven. Yeah, I've got at seven, I've, I've got a call to, to like, to just flush out some of the stuff anyway.

• 29:39Fearne Cotton?

  Good, because it's full on this stuff.

• 29:41Speaker 13

  I don't think people understand how tough it is, do you know what I mean? And I don't think people are honest enough to say and to talk about it all. And just like the stuff that I'm doing at the minute is like, the kind of, the blocks that I broke it down to. I approached my therapist over trauma in, in competition and sport. So it's like, why can't I enjoy my job anymore? Why? Because like I said. Steve from Dover or whatever his name is, it's like.

• 30:13Fearne Cotton?

  So many dickheads in Dover.

• 30:14Speaker 13

  Yeah, I know. But giving me shit to take away, I'm so fearful of losing, I don't even wanna compete. And last year, I done so much work, like, November, December, January, to just rid that of myself. And then I went into that fight, my career was make or break in that moment, and I was fucking stone cold feeling like, I found me, I know who the fuck I am, I know where my feet have taken me, I know what I've come, what fucking fires I've come through, to be where I am, and no one's taken it away from me anymore. I used to fight for me mum, my fiance, Liverpool, everyone who hasn't fucking made it, and now this time I'm fighting for myself, like,

• 30:55Speaker 13

  I wanna feel good about them moments, it's about me, I put myself through that much shit, and I have to come that much, but I'm doing it for me, and when I won, oh mate, it was the, like, it wasn't that much elation, I just felt like.

• 31:11Fearne Cotton?

  You were calm, I watched those interviews and you are.

• 31:15Speaker 13

  I was just, that's the way I was at, do you know what I mean, and I was just so happy and, I was just like, fuck the lawyers, like, I know it weren't about, that's for you, but I just thought, no, fuck yous, you give me that much shit, this is for me, and then when I got back, my therapist went, right, we're getting into it, and I went, can I not just have this, like, do I have to go back into pain?

• 31:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, can I just enjoy it?

• 31:38Speaker 13

  Yeah, and he was like, no, like, we're getting into it, and like.

• 31:41Fearne Cotton?

  But the more that you heal and.

• 31:45Speaker 13

  I can enjoy the rest of my life, do you know what I mean, and I've become so much aware of my negative and toxic traits as a person, also having ADHD, like, the rejection from the abandonment and trauma is so magnetised by also having ADHD, like, your rejection sensitivity is on a whole fucking different scales, but you throw a whole lifetime of trauma into that, and then you throw being a celebrity in, or being noticed everywhere, and then everyone's opinions on the rejection, I was like, wow, I've really gotta do some work there, do you know what I mean? So I was really trying to work through that stuff.

• 32:22Fearne Cotton?

  Which is also, by the way, probably like a life's work for all of us. Like, I think we assume, oh, and then maybe in like six months I'll be fixed and everything will be great. But you realise the more you do it, you've just got to keep digging and peeling back layers.

• 32:39Speaker 13

  Yeah, and I like through all the, like, I always said to me mum, I'll do the therapy after fighting. I'm not unheaving Pandora's box, because what if my why was to get out of where I'm from to make it for those? So, am I gonna now change that in myself then? Like, am I gonna be?

• 32:57Fearne Cotton?

  Interesting.

• 32:58Speaker 13

  A more different fighter, but then when I've just looked at that performance, it wasn't edgy, it wasn't manic. It was calm, it was cool, and I was like, I can see I've done the work there, I don't fear failure, I'm at peace with myself, we're cool. So I was like, right, I'm getting fucking into this, do you know what I mean?

• 33:15Fearne Cotton?

  How interesting though, because I, I think many people will resonate with that, that we do fear, oh, but if I start a therapy, then maybe that will change who I am and how I operate and the bits I like about myself. I think we question all of it because we know that the only guarantee is there will be change. Something will shift. If you start digging around in the past, if you start looking at yourself, something will shift. That's terrifying. That is terrifying. But you've just explained and proved that it's for the better.

• 33:46Speaker 05

  Yeah. I, I think there were certain levels that I'd really come to terms with. And then when we sat down to write it, there were things that I really felt that I'd dealt with and hadn't even looked at. You know, when we come to writing, the, I got abused as a child from the age of 10 to 14. And, you know, to, to write that down and to actually, to actually relive it is a momentous thing. It's, it, you know, I, I didn't believe that it had a hold on me anymore. I felt that because I don't talk about it and I don't look at it, it's been dealt with. You know, like all human beings, we plough, we plough through it, it goes to the sides, builds up and eventually it will come in on top of us.

• 34:28Speaker 05

  And, you know, we sat down and we started writing that and I had to stop. I got really ill. I thought I had food poisoning for three days. And what it was, it wasn't food poisoning, it was the fact that I brought that stuff to the surface. That night when I went to bed, I could smell him.

• 34:44Speaker 05

  I don't wanna cry, but I could smell him and I could see him and and I hadn't done that since I was ten or twelve or thirteen. And it brought all that stuff up and I really felt that I dealt with it. But what I did, what I did do was start trauma therapy. And if anyone in here had trauma in your lives and you, you think that you've dealt with it, please just try some form of trauma therapy. It's very different from other therapy. And it really, it really enabled me to carry on with this. Because what I did was, I sat down and I, at the age of, I'm fifty six. And so at the age of fifty three, fifty four, I'm sitting drawing, colouring in pictures on the floor with crowns.

• 35:25Speaker 05

  And what it does, it opens up this part of the brain that we, we close away. For when we talk, we talk about stuff quite freely that, you know, without exposing our shame. But when we draw it, it's a whole different thing. And it was a really amazing experience. Yeah.

• 35:43Fearne Cotton?

  It's incredible that you did it because, um, you know, we've got this beautiful book from you going through that process. But of course, going through any sort of trauma healing does involve you having to look at it. And I think anyone in this tent now who's been through anything challenging or traumatic, it, it's always of course the easiest option to not look at it and to build distractions and to go la la la, I'm not, I can't go there. I know I do that with certain parts of my life. But I guess the only way to truly overcome situations like that is to look at it.

• 36:18Speaker 05

  I mean, it's like, listen, put it very frankly, it's like having gonorrhea, right? Not looking at it, knowing you've got gonorrhea and, and you won't know it's gonorrhea.

• 36:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's a great example.

• 36:28Speaker 05

  Or you've got a doctor to look at it. Do you get what I mean? This is the way my brain works, sorry.

• 36:31Fearne Cotton?

  It's brilliant.

• 36:31Speaker 05

  So, you know, but until someone diagnoses it, which is looking at it. You know, you don't understand what you've got and I can self diagnose everything because I'm a really good doctor, I'm an amazing vet. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm everything, you know, when it comes to, you know, um, so until you actually look at it, you're totally right. It, it, it's, it's, it's something totally different.

• 36:54Fearne Cotton?

  And can you see, since going through that process and doing trauma therapy and going through that process, can you see how your behaviour in certain situations has changed because you've dealt with it? Is, is there evidence of how you've changed through that process?

• 37:11Speaker 05

  You know, I, I truly believe, you know, I fifty, like, as I say, fifteen and a half years of working on myself, you know, I, I, I work a programme, uh, drink and drugs are no longer a problem because I worked that programme and I lived that programme. Um, so I've dealt with that stuff, but dealing with that stuff, it's, it's, it, it takes as long as it takes.

• 37:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, Tony's absolutely right. It does take as long as it takes for you to get there. There's no one set linear experience of therapy. If, if someone says to you, I'm going to fix you in three sessions, that's a load of old shit in my eyes, but hey, I'm not an expert. But I think, yeah, like Tony says, you just keep going until you feel like you've got the tools and the resilience and the mindset to maybe not do therapy or maybe not do it as often. And also, this is the other thing that I've learned and certainly from listening to those chats again today, don't go to therapy to fix you. Don't go because you think you're going to come out this sort of better, more polished person at the end of it.

• 38:12Fearne Cotton?

  For me personally, I think therapy allows you to be okay with the bits of you that are messy, selfish, ruthless, flawed, angry and all of that stuff. It doesn't banish them away so you're this pure person with no bad thoughts. It helps you get to grips with the parts of yourself that you find tricky. That's been the big learning for me, big time. As ever, we're going to carry on this chat on Instagram, so do come and join me there at Happy Place Official. And of course, I'll be back here very soon. For now, a huge thank you to Dr Julie, Owen O'Kane, Leanne Pinnock, Perry Edwards, Molly McCann and DJ Fat Tony. Also to the producer, Anushka Tait at Happy Place Studios and to you, go on, take a chance on yourself.

• 39:24Speaker 06

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• 40:24Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel.

• 40:25Speaker 11

  And Maisie Adam.

• 40:26Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 40:28Speaker 11

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 40:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 11

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 40:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too.

• 40:42Speaker 11

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 40:45Fearne Cotton?

  Nom nom nom nom nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 40:51Speaker 11

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.