Millie Mackintosh: “I would drink to forget” Self-esteem, shame, and sobriety

When does a coping mechanism become a problem? Millie Mackintosh talks through the big moments she realised her drinking was affecting both her own health and the people she loves. In this chat Fearne and Millie cover panic attacks and intrusive thoughts, which can both get particularly bad when secrecy and shame are driving risky behaviours. Then, how do you start to forgive yourself for the things you’re not proud of? And how can you talk to yourself kindly when you fall back into old patterns of behaviour? Plus, Millie explains how ADHD can interact with addiction, and what small lifestyle changes have made a huge difference to her physical and mental health. Do you want to drink less? Fearne and Millie chat about how they learnt to enjoy social events without alcohol. Millie's book, Bad Drunk, is out now. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Lucinda Miller https://pod.fo/e/264d40 Brene Brown https://pod.fo/e/fb13f Vicky Pattison https://pod.fo/e/1f1986 CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains conversations about sexual assault Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that nudges you towards healthier habits. Today, I'm chatting to Millie Mackintosh.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  We did couples therapy and I really had to own up to the harm that I'd caused him in the relationship through my drinking and the horrible things I'd said to him. I've turned into quite a mean drunk in the last couple of years of drinking, which I feel, I do feel horrible about that. And seeing my children and wanting them to grow up with a mother that was going to be present, that wasn't going to be so anxious that she couldn't communicate properly with them. I didn't want them to grow up and be influenced by having a mother with a drinking problem.

• 1:11Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, guys. You catch me in absolute shitstorm today of one kid being off ill, trying to prep podcasts for the week and record this very intro as we get ready for this week's episode of Happy Place. It is one of those days where everything is just a bit of a mess. Certainly the room my son is sat in currently with sort of snacks strewn about the place, obviously YouTube blaring loudly, et cetera. The juggle is real, but we're doing it. Do you know what I'm doing to get through it today? I'm just eating. I'm comfort eating. And I think here and there, why not go for what makes you happy? And for me, it's just chocolate.

• 1:55Fearne Cotton?

  I don't think there's a better invention. Butter on toast, a close second, but for me, chocolate all the way. I'm... Generally comforted today by chocolate. On that note, we've got some big stuff to talk about. Millie, she's an entrepreneur, an influencer and Made in Chelsea alumni. Now, if you follow her on Instagram, you may well know that she decided to go alcohol free in 2022 after acknowledging the impact drinking was having on her health and wellbeing. Now she's written a book called Bad Drunk that documents that full experience from the events that led to her decision through to the very tangible effects of her sober life she now leads. This was such a cool chat because, I mean, sometimes we, you know, we've had chats about

• 2:40Fearne Cotton?

  alcohol before, but it's often framed in the context of alcoholism. And this is slightly different, a slightly different tone and flavour to this chat and one that I think will resonate with many, many people. One of them being that, you know, looking at when something becomes a problem and how you know it's a problem. Also, reaching big life moments and realising that your behaviour's got to change, which is bloody hard when you've been in little cycles of habitual behaviour for some time. It's really hard to break it. We talk about panic attacks, intrusive thoughts, the role that shame plays as a driver of many of our behaviours. Also, bloody important one, being able to forgive yourself.

• 3:23Fearne Cotton?

  You know, I think we all need to attempt to do that in some vein, don't we? With whatever has gone on in the past or anything that's going on currently, it's a really important one. It is a packed one.

• 3:36Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Laura Adams, host of Money Girl, where I help my listeners make empowered choices. Women are increasingly driving household financial decisions, yet many say they don't feel fully prepared for the choices ahead. When you're making choices for a future decades away, confidence matters. And confidence comes from knowing a promise will be kept. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. Pacific Life keeps its promises, so you can keep yours.

• 4:17Speaker 03

  Ask a financial professional about how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York. Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 5:03Speaker 05

  This week on Help, I sexted my boss.

• 5:06Speaker 06

  And after taking a shower, I used some spray deodorant that belonged to his mother from the cupboard. He took a big sniff of me and says, "Mmm, smells like sex."

• 5:14Speaker 05

  Cast your personal question.

• 5:15Speaker 06

  Yes?

• 5:16Speaker 05

  Do your balls ever just float back up?

• 5:18Speaker 06

  What?

• 5:20Speaker 05

  Burnley playing Millwall away. I've got all my brothers coming down like a Millwall.

• 5:24Speaker 06

  Oh, God.

• 5:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, I can't go. I'm going to a matinee of Pride of the Musical.

• 5:31Speaker 06

  Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts.

• 5:38Fearne Cotton?

  All right, gang, here we go. This is the show.

• 6:02Fearne Cotton?

  Hi, Millie.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Nice to see you. Thank you for having me.

• 6:04Fearne Cotton?

  So nice to see you. And congrats on your book. Great front cover, by the way.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Thank you. I came up with the title myself, which I'm really pleased about because I think it just really sums up how I felt as a drinker. But also, you know, I think it's going to start conversations with people.

• 6:21Fearne Cotton?

  Without a doubt. It's called Bad Drunk. And obviously, we live in the UK, which has a really interesting culture when it comes to drinking. It's very much celebrated and hugely normalised. So I think it feels like a really maverick thing to do, to write a book about drinking in this way. But I'm imagining it wasn't an easy book to write.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  It wasn't easy. It was painful at times, but I've, I definitely felt all the way through that it was something I really wanted to do because I just get so many messages from women, particularly in mums, who've seen me talk about my decision to stop drinking on Instagram. And they all were asking for advice and tips. And I just wanted to do the book so that they would have, you know, something, a way to, a guide, a guide to help them change their relationship with alcohol.

• 7:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. So you've not had a drink since August 2022.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, two and a half years.

• 7:15Fearne Cotton?

  It's amazing.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Two and a half years. Yeah, I was, I actually messaged my sober coach, telling him about the book. And sometimes you kind of, you just forget that like the milestones. And I was like, it's like, it's gone so fast, but best decision I've ever made.

• 7:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And it's important, I think, to look back on that. Like, two and a half years is a long time and to go, that's amazing that I've not done that. The irony of today is I have got a slight hangover.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Okay, how, how many drinks? Okay.

• 7:43Fearne Cotton?

  Not a lot.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  I have zero, I have zero judgment.

• 7:46Fearne Cotton?

  No, I know you're not judging me. I'm not even judging myself. I had a fun time, quite frankly. I had a really good time. It was great. But I was like, why today? Why today? But I think it's such a worthwhile conversation to be having. Obviously, sometimes the conversation around alcohol is taken in extremes. We're talking about it when it's alcoholism and there's, you know, deep seated issues and it's a daily problem. But I like the fact that you've written this book, not necessarily from that standpoint. You talk about drinking being destructive in your life and something that you knew you had an issue with, but it, but you don't, or you wouldn't class yourself as an alcoholic.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I hate that, that the, the name alcoholic. I think there is, and I think there's so much stigma attached to just any kind of drinking problem. But I, yeah, I didn't have the kind of dependency where I was drinking every day to get through the day. I would get withdrawal from alcohol. I would get very severe anxiety and I would then I would self-medicate by drinking more, drinking again, or with prescription pills to cope with how awful my hangovers were, which was also just a very unhealthy, toxic kind of cycle that I got into. But. Admitting I actually had a problem was really hard for me for a long time because I felt that there was so much shame around it.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  And also, people kept saying to me, oh, you know, you had too much to drink, but, you know, you don't have a problem. So people kept kind of saying to me, oh, come on, you don't have a problem. And then I started to think, well, if I did have a problem, I would be judged. So I felt like I just kept telling myself, oh, it's not that bad. And over the years, things would happen and I was like, this isn't like, that's not really, that's not okay. And I was kind of scaring myself and having, but I'd have periods, so I wouldn't drink at all, maybe a month or six weeks, and I'd feel really good. So I kind of convinced myself, I don't have a problem because I can stop. But then, when I went back, the same things would always happen. I'd always try and limit the amount I had.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  And once I'd had, you know, two or three, all my resolve would crumble. And I never knew when the kind of responsible amount was. Like, I just would have a couple and then just keep chasing the feeling it was giving me and be the person that just wanted the night to go on and on.

• 10:11Fearne Cotton?

  You didn't have an off button?

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Didn't have an off button. If I had one, I wanted a hundred.

• 10:15Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. I always, I've got friends like that who have not got off buttons. And I've always looked at them and sort of thought, I wish I was more like that. I tend to have a couple of drinks and then I'm really tired and I just think, I want to go to bed. And then I end up calling the night quits way too early. And everyone's like, oh, you missed so and so did this. Or like, this was a really fun moment. But I've got friends that have exactly the same thing. There's, there's no off button. You're out, you're having a great time. And I guess when you look at whether other people are saying you've got a problem or not, or what the definition is of a problem, I think with anything, whether it's alcohol or it could be anything that you, you know is detrimental, it's a problem if you say so. If you know that your life could be better. Could be anything.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, could be anything.

• 11:00Fearne Cotton?

  But I don't think we should have these parameters that say, if you're drinking X amount, it's a problem. It's if you feel that it's derailing you in life in some ways, or you could be living in a better way, then you decide whether it's a problem or not. And you, you had a specific moment you talk about in the book that was a bit of a wake up call where you thought, right, I have pushed it too far, enough's enough. So just tell us about how, how that happened and, and in that moment, what really got you rethinking about your drinking habits?

• 11:29Speaker 02

  In the last year before I decided to stop, I had a couple of nights out, a couple of situations where they were big warning signs. One was, actually two of them were weddings, one was a hen. Often these occasions where the kind of drinking is kind of part of a big social gathering. The last, the last one was at a wedding, I was out with Hugo and I had planned to not drink very much, really kind of been like, okay, this is a really important wedding, it was one of Hugo's best friends. And I don't remember much after the champagne reception, like just, it's all a blur. But it all just went a bit peatong. I was crying, I was angry, I was

• 12:11Speaker 02

  just that kind of drunk person at the party that other people are trying to like get away from because I was just such a mess. And it's, it's really uncomfortable to think about myself at that wedding, but it's also such a good reminder why I don't go back to drinking. And a couple of days after that, I had a big argument with Hugo at the wedding and the next day he said to me, it had happened, you know, so many times, he said, I'm really like done, if this, if this, you know, keeps happening, it's going to end our marriage. And he didn't give me an ultimatum of like, if you ever drink again from today, it's over. He just said, I can't keep going through this with you. And I also knew that it was really damaging our relationship.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  But it took me then about another five days and then I had my like last drink. That basically happened after drinking with friends on holiday, going to bed, not super late, not, I wasn't particularly drunk that night, but we would have been out drinking a few nights in a row on holiday. And I went to bed and I woke up the next morning, we were staying on a boat. And I woke up and felt very intense anxiety straight away, but I wasn't able to tell if it was real or not. Like I felt, I went straight to a panic attack. And I felt like I couldn't breathe, I felt like I couldn't get air in my, my throat felt like it was closing. And I started to blackout, I woke Hugo up and I started to blackout, I was on the floor. And I could see my children's faces and I really thought.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  I wasn't aware I'm having a panic attack, I'm hungover, this is anxiety. It was like I was in the panic attack and thought I was about to die. And when I calmed down and like later that morning, I was really shaken up and I went for a hike with Hugo just to like talk and I said, I need to stop drinking. And it was the scariest thing to say because I knew once I'd said it out loud, I was gonna have to stick to it. And it felt so scary.

• 14:05Fearne Cotton?

  I bet.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  I felt like my life, I didn't know what my life was gonna look like. I didn't know how I was gonna socialise, how I was gonna have fun. I thought that was the only way I could have fun. And it was, yeah, I was terrified at that point, but I knew that was my rock bottom.

• 14:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I guess also saying it out loud, you have to trust yourself that you're gonna stick to it. And that always feels scary. You say something, you declare it out loud to the person you love the most. You, you've got to try and stick to it. And even knowing where to start, I think is difficult. And like so many people, I'm sure, listening to this, and like you say, the disproportionate amount of mums that have reached out to you. Because we're fed this sort of messaging that when you're a knackered mum, you get to the end of the day, you have a glass of wine. It chills you out, it relaxes you, it takes the edge off. All of this sort of stuff that we're really used to, it's totally normalised, no one would shame a mum for doing so. But it can be damaging, of course, it can accentuate anxiety, it can lead to drinking a lot more

• 15:07Fearne Cotton?

  if you haven't got an off button or if that is your proclivity. It's, it's a really, it's a tricky one to then change all of these ingrained habits. And like you say, having fun, I think that is one of the trickiest things. Is that I had a big period of sobriety in my thirties, not for any huge reason. I just thought, I'm, I did a lot of drinking in my twenties and I thought, I'm just gonna see how I might socialise outside of that alcohol framework and what it's like to go to a gig, what it's like to go to a wedding. And it's really unnerving at first and everyone's around you. Completely pissed and, you know, talking a million miles an hour and wanting to dance. And you feel like you're a little bit out of the, the swing of things.

• 15:49Fearne Cotton?

  How, how was that sort of first influx of social activity and having to put yourself in, in a social setting?

• 15:57Speaker 02

  It was hard at first, it really felt like my security blanket had been taken away and I am, I had to kind of. Look at why I felt so uncomfortable and really realise that actually I'm quite introverted. But I thought I was an extrovert. I was like, oh, but I love parties. And actually, a lot of the things I thought were really fun. I realised without alcohol weren't fun for me. And I went to quite a few weddings and did not dance at all.

• 16:22Fearne Cotton?

  They're so long. Why weddings so long? Why? They're so long.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  But I gave myself permission to leave early.

• 16:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  I'd make sure, you know, I saw the saw the first dance, was there for like the important bits.

• 16:33Fearne Cotton?

  And then you can sneak out. No one knows.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  I would sneak out.

• 16:35Fearne Cotton?

  I've done so many ninja vanishes at weddings and no one knows. And they're like, did you see the band?

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:41Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  But especially when you've got kids as well, it's easy, like, you've just got to go.

• 16:45Fearne Cotton?

  You've just got to go. So you've got new rules, I guess, for yourself as to how you will navigate a social setting.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  To just be kinder to myself. So kind of number one is like having a plan. Like, okay, how long do I need to be there? Like, you know, just working out like, okay, if I got, I'm gonna give myself an exit at like 10pm. I know by then everyone's gonna be quite drunk. I'm gonna have a car booked to take. So I know, okay, I'm gonna be there for this amount of hours. Who, and then I'm like, okay, who am I gonna, who who am I going with? Who can I sit with? Who can I? Kind of find that's gonna be good company for me, that's gonna make it easier. And whether it might be other people that don't drink or just somebody that I'm really close to and I'll just kind of have like a wingman.

• 17:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  And then bring my own drinks that I like to drink. So my favourite non-alcoholic spirits or like trip or just a cup, I'll just bring things in my bag, literally just show up, show up and be like.

• 17:38Fearne Cotton?

  It's a great idea.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Just literally go up to the barman and be like, can you make this into some kind of mocktail for me? And lots of people now are offering good alternatives. So kind of know, okay, I'm gonna, I've got something I like to drink. And just giving myself permission to leave if it's too difficult. And I don't find as much that I need to do that now. I know if I get tempted to drink, or I feel super triggered, or I can either call one of my friends who's basically like my sponsor, she's like my, one of my, become one of my best friends and she's sober as well. So we're like that person for each other. Could call my sober coach, I could call my husband if he wasn't there with me, and I can just leave. Or if I just need to just regroup, just go and shut myself in

• 18:19Speaker 02

  the bathroom and do some, do some breathing, um, to ease kind of any anxiety that's coming up. But it's, it's got easier. I don't feel, now that it's a choice that I'm making, I'm not thinking about it every day. I'm not waking up and going, I need to decide not to drink today. It's just, it's kind of become my lifestyle now.

• 18:37Fearne Cotton?

  Is it still very much a day at a time? Because I think when you proclaim that you're never going to drink again, that pressure can feel overwhelming for people. And is probably the reason people then do start drinking again, because they, they say that. And you, you state at the, at the, right at the start of the book, you say, I can't promise I won't drink again. And I felt reading that, like you were saying it more for yourself than anyone, because it's a huge ask to set yourself any goal for life. It, it's insurmountable.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I, I, I do find it actually very helpful to say, I don't drink, and I, and I choose to not, you know, just have, be like, I could just have one, or, you know, I know other people that, um, are sober curious and don't drink, but maybe once a year might have a glass of champagne. But I, now that I've learnt so much more about myself and about my, the way that I specifically react to alcohol, I really have no, no plan to, to drink again. But yes, saying to myself, who knows, like, hopefully life is long and you never know. And I don't want to beat myself up if I do have a drink and then beat, beat myself up and then get into a kind of shame spiral again. Because

• 19:48Speaker 02

  I think often people start a sobriety journey, they're sober curious, and after a month or two, they get tempted, they have a drink, and then they think, oh, fuck it, now I'm just gonna, might as well just go straight back in and start drinking again. And actually, you can just look at it as if it. Made you feel bad and just go, okay, well, that just showed me why I was doing it in the first place and just keep going.

• 20:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think it's so important to talk about that moment of whether it's temptation or relapse with anything, because it can be such a horrible stumbling block and reason to beat yourself up and really spiral into negative self-talk that isn't helpful at all. I remember I had, because I had eating disorders was bulimic and then I got really healthy and in a good space, then I had a bulimia relapse. It was a one-off, but it was really far down the line. And I could feel myself thinking, oh, my God, I had done seven years by that point. I'm fucked, I've gone back to square one. But actually, I really did a lot of work to choose in that moment to go, it was a blip. It doesn't mean anything.

• 20:54Fearne Cotton?

  It was a blip and it again proves that I don't want to go back to that. I want to go back to feeling really, really good. And I think it's so important to remember that, that it's not the end of everything. It's just a little reminder that you don't want that anymore.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:08Fearne Cotton?

  It's really, really important.

• 21:13Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Laura Adams, host of Money Girl, where I help my listeners make empowered choices. Women are increasingly driving household financial decisions, yet many say they don't feel fully prepared for the choices ahead. When you're making choices for a future decades away, confidence matters. And confidence comes from knowing a promise will be kept. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. Pacific Life keeps its promises, so you can keep yours.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  Ask a financial professional about how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York. Pacific Life in Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 22:09Speaker 04

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 22:43Speaker 05

  Check engine, ABS or maintenance light on? Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O'Reilly Veriscan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE certified master technicians. And if you need help, we can recommend a shop for you. Ask for O'Reilly Veriscan today.

• 23:09Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  And Maisy Adams.

• 23:11Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 23:14Speaker 03

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 23:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 23:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too.

• 23:28Speaker 03

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 23:33Fearne Cotton?

  You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck it in, baby.

• 23:43Fearne Cotton?

  So let's rewind back because...

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, sorry, I just like...

• 23:46Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  I jump about.

• 23:48Fearne Cotton?

  This is this podcast...

• 23:48Speaker 02

  That's also my ADHD is like...

• 23:50Fearne Cotton?

  Babe, I'm there. The tangents galore. And I like to jump about. That's the whole point of it. But I think it's really important in this context to also talk about how you came into our lives, which was of course made in Chelsea. You were only 21. I actually hadn't realised how young you were. And it was a huge deal. It was a cultural shift where we were all of a sudden imbibing all of these, you know, reality TV shows that were so exciting and feeling like we knew everybody on the TV. And you guys were... Giving us a lot, you know, it was exposing for you and your life and your dynamics and people assuming that they know who you are. And I'm imagining if you're now actually identifying as a bit of an introvert, that might have led to more social situations where you needed to take the edge off with drink.

• 24:34Fearne Cotton?

  Or certainly the temptation was everywhere because you're being invited to the BAFTAs and all of these parties and, you know, you're 21, why are you going to say no?

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Exactly, it was a time in my life and I was definitely already partying and drinking a lot anyway. And then there was the anxiety that was already there that I'd carried through my teens. And then I thought the show was going to give me some kind of validation. I wasn't, I didn't have the self-awareness to realise that's why I wanted to do it. At the time I was just like, oh, fuck it, why not? Like, this will be fun. And then I was, my anxiety was every, the more the show did well, the more successful the show was, the more my anxiety grew. And then the more I was drinking to feel calm and then feeling awful the next day. And it just was a cycle.

• 25:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and, you know, it, when you're 21 and you're going to all of these parties, what, I mean, what 21-year-old would say, I don't want to go or I'm not going to have a drink? Like, of course it was on a plate for all of you guys and I was, you know, in the same sort of boat at 21, you're just, it's a free-for-all. You're just going out and having a great time and it's celebrated. And also when you're known as a bit of a party girl, it's like, oh, she's so much fun. What's she going to do tonight? And there's almost a pressure.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:49Fearne Cotton?

  It's a performative element of it, that Millie's going to be on a table dancing at some point. Everybody get ready.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  I really felt that I became this character that I told myself was part of my personality. This was just me, I was the wild, the wild party girl, the one that would have a funny story to tell the next day, the one that would do something to get everyone laughing and. It just wasn't me, but I just kept wearing this mask and I kept, yeah, we kept going all the way through my twenties like that. But then the difficult thing also after being on the show is being in the public eye. Basically, growing up, you know, as my, as an adult in the public eye and people with camera phones. And then you've got added pressure and fear of, oh my God, I can't remember half of last night.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  And did people take pictures? What was I doing? How did I get home?

• 26:41Fearne Cotton?

  Terrifying.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Who were those random people I was at an after party with like, and you know, they have phones and that, living in that fear of the constant, constant fear of getting caught out. And getting, just getting pictured hammered, which did happen to me a couple of times and the anxiety of that. And then that leading to more drinking.

• 27:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a vicious circle. I mean, you talk about, you say, you call it your lowest public moment where you'd been to the Monaco, you're wincing as I even see it. We've, we've all got them, but the Monaco Grand Prix that you attended and that for you felt like a personal low point. Why?

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Cause I just had no idea how bad it was, like how, wait, I mean, I was so wasted that I just couldn't comprehend like, okay, there's gonna be, I just wasn't, I wasn't thinking logically. Or responsibly, like you can't get that wasted and then be stumbling about at such a public event. And not expect there to be pictures everywhere. And I was going through a divorce and I was, I was then with my now husband. And there was a lot of press attention around that, but all of that was creating a lot of anxiety. And hence why I got so wasted because I can really look back and see a pattern. The more anxious I was, the more likely I was to go completely off the rails.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Because I would just drink, you know, I was drinking more and more heavily to cope with those feelings and. It was just full of nerves and then pouring, you know, fuel on the fire and it was.

• 28:16Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's so great that you talked about, and I could tell from reading it that it wasn't a fun part of the book to write. But I think it's one of the most important bits. I think not only does it give all of us permission to look back on, you know, moments that felt mortifying to us disproportionately because other people would look and go and wouldn't judge you or would just think, we've all been there or whatever. But I think when you've got that level of mortification, you feel humiliated about a moment. I think it's so important to know that nearly all of us, probably all of us, if we're willing to admit it, have been in a place where we felt like we've acted inauthentically or we've done something we regret, or people have seen us acting in a way that we regret.

• 29:00Fearne Cotton?

  And for you to actually just put that in a book, and you even say, there's every chance that all of these pictures will now resurface and be at the top of the Google search when they put your name in because you're talking about it. But you're still willing to put that in there because you know it will help people and it will get people reflecting.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  It's also my greatest reminder why I don't drink. So if I'm ever like tempted to just like, just Google those, Google my name, just be like, that's why. I'm like, my children are gonna, you know, read this book and see those pictures. And that's gonna make me have to have some very honest conversations with them. But I wish I'd read this book when I first stopped drinking, but I also really wish I'd had something like this I could have read as a young girl.

• 29:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, me too, me too. I think, you know, I'm a bit older than you, but I think we grew up in an era where, I mean, my generation, we were drinking in parks, it was completely normal. You were drinking all sorts of mixed spirits from your parents.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Oh, gorgeous, taking a little bit from each bottle.

• 30:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Pernod, no idea what that is, that's going in. Robinson's orange juice, yeah, whack that on top. We were just disgusting concoction of stuff.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:09Fearne Cotton?

  But everybody did it. And again, there was, as a teenager, there still is an immense amount of peer pressure that if your friends are all doing it, you should do it too. Come on, don't be boring, is probably. I stopped drinking actually in my thirties. I remember someone saying to me at the Brits, because I wouldn't have a drink. Oh my god, don't be boring.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  I've heard it so many times.

• 30:30Fearne Cotton?

  It rang in my ears and I actually left because I just thought I can't deal with this anymore. And it rang in my, and I really at the time, I wasn't probably as secure as I am now in who I believe I am. But I thought, God, am I just so boring? What's wrong with me? And that is something you have to somehow negate when you choose not to drink and you go out.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  I think, yeah, it's tough. I think there's less of that now.

• 30:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  There is this sober curious movement and people are, more and more young people are also choosing not to drink. And there's just this conversation that's starting to happen now. But I still think that there are not, there aren't enough kind of sober role models for people. And what really helped me actually was looking at articles which were talking about sober celebrities, like actresses that I looked up to. I just remember thinking, God, they just must be so strong that they can, you know, just choose not to drink. So I was so jealous and I thought, okay, that's interesting that it's making me jealous. What is that showing me? And I just, I just thought, I'm not enough, like, I'm not good enough to not drink.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Like, I don't have the strength or I don't have the, kind of, I just thought they must just have such, you know, so much confidence to not need alcohol.

• 31:42Fearne Cotton?

  Not at all. They've just made the choice.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  And then just, and when I realised I could make that choice for myself. And it was as easy as just realising I had the power and strength to say no. It sounds like such a small insignificant thing, but it didn't feel like I had the power for so long, like alcohol had power over me.

• 32:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. I think most of us feel like that, certainly in social settings. I think also when we root back to the sort of drinking culture here and certainly my generation, your generation, growing up where it was so normalised and celebrated as a teen. And maybe that is shifting slightly, but you had also that added burden of being bullied at school. So it became almost a crutch for you that you would drink to navigate these sort of toxic dynamics that you found yourself in, feeling like a bit of an outsider. And I think anything we've been through in childhood like that, you tend to bring it into adulthood, whether you like it or not. And even if you're around people that love you, you can still have the propensity to feel like, I'm the outsider, I'm the one that doesn't fit in here. Would that, does that ring true to you, would you say?

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 32:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Since I was at school, feeling like I didn't fit in, feeling. Like an outsider, not feeling like I fit into the into the kind of groups of people and not just yeah, just not knowing myself. And then in my twenties, yeah, I'd say just being bullied really affected how I formed female friendships and trust issues. And just not knowing myself. So the biggest gift really for me from my alcohol free journey has been the connection to myself and actually realising I didn't love myself at all. And I thought I was into kind of wellness and doing all the wellness things before, but I hadn't really scratched the surface and done any of the work, deeper work on myself. I just wasn't willing to go there and look at

• 33:30Speaker 02

  all the uncomfortable sticky stuff that was there. And now I've been able to kind of shine a light on the darkest parts of myself and bring them out into the light, put them in a book. She goes like, my husband's like, you've just got one really weird way of doing therapy.

• 33:49Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Don't talk to your parents, put it in a book.

• 33:52Fearne Cotton?

  That's what I did. Read this, guys. This is why I'm so fucked up. Read this. No, it's a good way of doing it. It's getting it, it's airing all your laundry and it helps other people. It helps other people. What's so interesting is you say in the book, you assumed that once you stopped drinking, all your problems would go. But actually, and what you've just expressed here, is that when you stopped drinking, you actually had the clarity to see them. Sometimes for the first time, what did surface with that clarity that you had not been looking at or were positively shunning because you didn't want to go there?

• 34:26Speaker 02

  I think one thing I was kind of oblivious to for a long time is that I was depressed and I was living with high functioning depression. Actually, when I read your book, Happy, it really spoke to me because I'd been putting on a mask for a long time and going to work and being like, I'm okay, like I can, I can get through the day. But as I was getting home and just. Like crying and, you know, just literally being so low when I was at home and didn't wanna get out of bed. Just lost interest in food, became afraid of everything, insomnia, just really not well. And I just reached a point where I was sober, but all the wellness things, all the other things I was doing

• 35:07Speaker 02

  weren't working anymore. And my anxiety had, I thought it had gone away when I stopped drinking for a couple of months. I was like, this is great. Like I'm healed. Alcohol was the problem. Removed the alcohol and I'm, I've cracked the code. And then suddenly the anxiety started coming back really like strong. I was like, I don't, I've done this amazing thing for myself. Like, how can I be feeling this? And then it was like, because I can feel and I'm not numbing. And that was really difficult. And I actually ended up having a bit of a breakdown really that I'd kind of described as a burnout moment where it actually happened at the BAFTAs. Last year, I'd been having panic attacks more and more frequently. And I had a massive panic attack at the BAFTAs.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  And I just felt myself like break when I was literally trying to literally get out of the building to like not show anyone what was going on. And I was visibly just like shaking and I got outside the building. Luckily there was no photographers because it was like the end of the evening. And I'd been holding it in like all day. And I just was like hysterically sobbing. And I knew from that moment, I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get help for this because I just can't keep going. And I went on meds the next morning. So I'd had some at home for a while and I didn't wanna take them. Because I felt a lot of shame and stigma around needing meds.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  And I'd had them sitting in my like top drawer for a couple of weeks. And I was like, okay, now I'm like at a point where I just need, I need to get out of this place that I'm in. So I went on them and that was nearly a year ago.

• 36:47Fearne Cotton?

  And do you still take them?

• 36:48Speaker 02

  I still take them.

• 36:50Fearne Cotton?

  I think this is again fucking important because there is stigma around medication. I felt it myself. I I haven't been on medication for a while, but I took antidepressants for a fair few, I don't know how long, maybe six months to sort of get myself out of a very black hole about 12 years ago. And I I could not have functioned without them. There's no way I could have turned up and done a live radio show, been seen in public. There's absolutely no way. And I think you've got to do what you've got to do.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:21Fearne Cotton?

  To help you cope with the reality of stuff you're facing, maybe from the past or issues that you need to look at or just your general mental health. If you've got to do it, you've got to do it and there should be zero shame attached to that decision at all.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  It's really given me the, just, it's given me my life back because I've been fighting this battle that nobody could see in my mind for so many years and it's really allowed me to do the work, to do the cognitive therapy, to do the EMDR, to do all the, like, all the different types of therapy that have really helped me to find those trauma points and really go there and do the work to to let go and release. And the book's really brought a lot up, but I've literally done two therapy sessions a week for a year. I've been so focused on feeling well and and I at some points thought, can I do the book? Is this okay for my mental health? And had to really like take a pause and be like, is is really thinking about everything I'm doing, is that I'm

• 38:20Speaker 02

  I doing too much and sometimes pulling back a bit and and turning work down, which can feel scary, but I knew I couldn't get back to that point I was at like a year ago and I just feel really grateful that I've been able to accept that I needed meds. I don't know how long I'll be on them, but it's it's allowed me to do the deeper work. I and I was so worried that if I if I was taking meds, I wouldn't be able to feel. And I wouldn't be, if I couldn't feel, I thought I can't access the emotions. I need to to heal stuff from the past. But actually, I've tried two different types now and the ones I'm on.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  I think I've found a good balance. I can still cry. I don't cry as much. I used to cry a lot every day, which was part of the depression and I just thought was just hormonal or it had just become normal for me. And I love crying, but I don't want to spend all my energy crying every single day.

• 39:17Fearne Cotton?

  The odd weep is fine, but not all day, not all day. When you think back over your life, when do you, I mean, it's hard, I've been asked this before and it's hard to pinpoint, where or when do you think all of this started, depression, anxiety? How old do you know?

• 39:33Speaker 02

  I think I went to boarding school when I was 10 and I think that definitely created some, some issues, feeling, feelings of abandonment because we didn't have mobile phones. So we were very cut off. And it was a couple of hours from maybe two hours from where my parents lived, you didn't, it wasn't weekly boarding. So, you know, I loved it. You could ride horses every day. You ride ponies every day. And it was this side in this beautiful bit of the countryside in Dorset, but it was, I was 10 and I couldn't call my parents. I could only speak to them once a week and we literally wrote letters. And I was, I remember the first few months, six months, maybe feeling really alone and really scared. And, and that really stayed with me and then being bullied from about the age of 12, 13.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  And then at 14, I mentioned this in the book, I experienced sexual assault when I was really drunk. The first time I got kind of wasted, the first time I passed out from drinking. And I think that really got me off on, on the wrong foot with alcohol because I kept repeating the same behaviour. I would drink to kind of forget the shame and carrying that shame on top of the kind of self-esteem damage that I had from the bullying meant that I was, I was fragile. And also depression, I think, was from the bullying as well. And I did get diagnosed when I was about 16.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  But I didn't want help at that age. I just, I was, I just felt angry at, at all adults and anyone basically trying to help me. I just was, I just was like, no, I need to, I felt very alone and like I just needed to try and fix it within myself. But it took me a long time to be ready to actually, you know, get help.

• 41:18Fearne Cotton?

  I think especially when it comes to sexual assault and shame, which is the worst feeling ever.

• 41:26Fearne Cotton?

  The worst. I've had huge bouts of shame and it's so debilitating. Yeah, here.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:33Fearne Cotton?

  It's all here and I I get it here and then I get these tingly pins and needles on the top of my head when I'm in that. You know, I could almost bring it on just thinking about it. It's the worst, worst feeling. And the only way, I think, you know, having been lucky enough to do therapy myself, I think you do realise the only way to take the sting out of it. Is to look at that thing that's caused you the shame. I mean, you've beautifully written about this and put it out there for everybody. To actually look at it and also, especially when it comes to sexual assault, to go. This, you didn't do anything wrong. Like this was, this is not about you in this situation. You were a victim of something rather than.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  I shouldn't be, I shouldn't be ashamed that that happened to me. And having these conversations in safe spaces is how I can let go. And also let other people know that they can let go of that shame. And I carried it with me for so long because I really believed it was my fault because. I had got that drunk and I told myself I was just that kind of girl, that that kind of thing happened to. And it wasn't the first, the only time it happened to me because. I had such low self-esteem and I had no regard for my, for my health and safety. I, I just. You know, feel very lucky honestly that. Like nothing worse happened over the years, but.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  I definitely put myself in a lot more dangerous situations and was just not being at all responsible with my health. And it's often like how these things do repeat, but I think I was listening to a Ben A. Brown podcast and. She was talking about how if you can't hear me, you can't see me.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  And that really resonated with me. Like being, I'm feeling right now like I'm like my mid thirties, I've had my daughters. I've learnt so much about myself and I, and I want to be my most authentic self. And it's like, okay, so I've got to really like share everything and maybe I'm sure not everyone feels like they need to go and write a book and share. All their like deepest darker secrets, but it's very freeing.

• 43:51Fearne Cotton?

  It's so freeing and then it makes you feel less terrified of those things that you've trapped in a little box over here that you don't want to look at. Because you're talking about them, they, they can't get you anymore, they can't hurt you.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  They can't hurt you, it's when they're your secrets and you're like, I've got to keep them hidden and not think about it. And it's like, you can just let them, let them out the box, let them go.

• 44:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and then you are completely yourself without having to filter and pretend. But I think the biggest shift can only really happen, especially in the context of self destructive behaviour. When you value yourself and it's really hard to go from not giving a shit about yourself to valuing yourself. I've been through that experience, I'm still on that path now and we'll have days where I don't value myself or. Can easily spiral into self loathing and I have to give myself a good talking to or talk to someone that I know. Does care about me or wants to help me feel good about myself. But it's a really tricky shift. What do you think the starting point was?

• 44:52Fearne Cotton?

  I, obviously sobriety, but what other mental shifts took place for you to start actually caring about yourself?

• 44:59Speaker 02

  I would say having my children and seeing myself as a mother and. Seeing my children and wanting to be the best person I could be for them. And wanting them to grow up with a mother that was going to be present, that wasn't going to be hung over every weekend. That wasn't going to be so anxious that she couldn't communicate properly with them. I didn't want them to grow up and be influenced by having a mother with a drinking problem that was. You know, checked out half the time or I remember one time I had to like look after the kids by myself all day. And, and I was taking a Xanax just to be able to cope with the level of anxiety I had from the alcohol that I'd drunk the night before.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  And I was like, I, I, this is just, this is not okay. I don't want to be just so numb. I don't want to miss this, this is their childhood. And it was it was stealing joy.

• 45:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  I think seeing myself become a mother and wanting to really just to show up. And ultimately, through this process of of healing through, since I've the journey I've been on with healing since I've been sober, I've started to learn how to reparent myself and how to imagine myself as as the girls, like as the age of I'm cuddling them, kind of imagine, I imagine sometimes that I'm giving myself a hug. And it's like me as a child and my older daughter looks identical to me as as I did as a child. So that is quite funny. Sometimes I just imagine like I'm saying, what will I say to myself? And that kind of inner child work has really helped.

• 46:35Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God, it's so important. We've actually just done a podcast this morning where we did a deep dive into all of this, looking at who we were as kids, what was said to us as kids and how we can now parent that part of ourselves that we've abandoned, that we've shoved in a box, that we don't want to look at. And it is such a healthy thing to do and an amazing way to change how you think about yourself and how you move through the world. It's so, so important. I mean, you you say in the book, the most uncomfortable part was talking about Xanax and the fact that you had this dependency and it went hand in hand with alcohol, counterbalanced the anxiety you felt, but then it wouldn't stop you drinking again, maybe that day or that evening.

• 47:17Fearne Cotton?

  Have you made peace with the fact that you had a problem with it?

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Yes, but I I think maybe people don't I care as much as I thought they would. I think sometimes in in your mind, in our minds, we can think, oh, God, if people found that out, it would be like the worst thing ever. But it is a lot, you know, a lot of people do use it obviously as a prescribed medicine, but and it's it's very addictive. And the more you take it, the more you want to take, the more the more your brain wants it. And then you need the same amount doesn't work for you anymore. And it was, again, readily available, prescribed by a doctor. I started taking it for anxiety and then. Dangerously slipped into sometimes mixing it with alcohol or taking it to cope with my hangover. And then suddenly my hangover was gone and then I could drink again.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  So it was a really vicious cycle and over the years it slipped from being occasional used to. It wasn't, you know, every day, but it was um every by the end, it was definitely every couple of days. And I was just, I was just completely glazed over. I look back at pictures of myself and it's like my eyes are just like, I'm just not there.

• 48:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you can now look back at that version of yourself with deep compassion and think, fuck, I was struggling. I was coping the best way I can. Do you feel like you can forgive yourself for the things that you deem are mistakes? Or the moments that you do feel shame or regret over?

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Yes, and I think that it's really important to forgive yourself. And through the process of understanding more about myself, why, how my past traumas have led me to act in a certain way. Um, how my ADHD has even um led me to act in certain ways because my brain has been seeking the dopamine. And it makes you much more likely to um abuse an addictive substance. So that's really allowed me to be a lot kinder to myself as well. It kind of explains maybe why I felt like more of an outsider when I was younger, struggled, struggled a lot at school and.

• 49:20Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, that's a newer diagnosis, isn't it?

• 49:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've had that in the last year.

• 49:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, it's brilliant that we're talking about this now because, I mean, we've done a couple of episodes on ADHD with either people that are experts in it or that have ADHD. And when we were kids, it wasn't talked about, you know, you were either the daydreamer, I certainly was.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  I was told I was, all my reports said I was always daydreaming.

• 49:42Fearne Cotton?

  Daydreamer talks too much. It was like, literally, that was my school report just relentlessly. Or if you were a boy at school, you were disruptive, you would fidget too much and, and that was the end of it. And you were just sort of cast aside as a slight problem in the classroom or sent out quite regularly, as I was. Um, but now we're talking about it and there is an actual understanding of it. And you can look back on not only your childhood, but how, how you seek dopamine now or, or how you move through the world now. And actually, all you were doing was trying to cope the whole time with, with a brain that works in a slightly different way to, you know, typical brains.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  It's just like having so many different thoughts at the same time and just the alcohol, you know, have a couple of drinks would just turn down the noise.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  And I can completely understand now why I felt that I need to do that. And actually, since January, I've been doing no sugar. Because I've been listening to lots of podcasts about how you can, you know, manage your ADHD through kind of diet and what you eat and through lots of other like lifestyle tweaks that you can make and

• 50:53Fearne Cotton?

  Has it helped?

• 50:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really helped.

• 50:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we had this amazing, um, I think she's classified as a naturopath and nutritionist called Lucinda Miller. And she talked on here all about sugar and ADHD. It was probably more directed towards parents and kids, but she has ADHD. So she's learned how to eat well herself and maintain a much more balanced thought process throughout the day by one of them eliminating sugar, which is not an easy thing to do, by the way.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm trying to do it with my kids as well.

• 51:22Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, that is a nightmare.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  I made them these like cupcakes this week and they just refused, like no sugar. And they refuse, they refuse to eat them.

• 51:29Fearne Cotton?

  This is what the whole time I'm trying to make healthy snacks and they're like, I'm not eating it. And you've just wasted two hours Googling something and making it. And they're like, that tastes like shit. I'm not eating it.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  I'm just gonna keep trying.

• 51:38Fearne Cotton?

  Keep trying. We can only try. The effort, the effort is there. So how, obviously no sugar, you're not drinking. In terms of ADHD, is there any other changes you've made that you know, help you navigate situations that might make you feel like your brain's racing, that you're slightly out of control? What, what helps?

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Exercise is a big one and exercise were like first thing in the morning. Getting out in daylight and getting that like natural light really helps. And I like, I like running. I find that really helps particularly with my thought process. If I've got something where I really need to focus, if I go for like a half an hour run, just like a jog, not super fast. I've, I've suddenly got so much, so many like productive thoughts. I can just sit down and get loads done.

• 52:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and have that clarity.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  To have that clarity. Um, trying to get, it's like, it's like all the stuff that just helps with mental health anyway. Like trying to get enough sleep. I find just having a routine. It really works for me. Over the Christmas holidays, I didn't have my usual routine and I've just really struggled actually.

• 52:41Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, same. It's like, what day is it?

• 52:45Speaker 02

  I think all parents.

• 52:46Fearne Cotton?

  It's just like, my kids are staying up too late. They're on screens all the time. It's just get them back to school.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 03

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• 54:44Fearne Cotton?

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• 54:54Fearne Cotton?

  You talk about intrusive thoughts in the book too, and this is something that many people who will have stopped drinking, especially in social situations, will find very hard to navigate. When you've got intrusive thoughts, I mean, I have OCD, so when my intrusive thoughts are bad, and mine isn't relentless all day long, all the time, but if I'm really stressed out or something's bothering me, the intrusive thought part of OCD can be completely overwhelming, where it's just, it's non-stop. And if I get into a little negative thought loop and there's this one thought that will not leave my head, I literally feel like I'm losing my mind, I don't know what to do. And I think when it's a very specific flavour of intrusive

• 55:39Fearne Cotton?

  thought, like alcohol, and you're out and you're in a bar, or you're at a party and there's a barman stood with a tray of drinks, how the hell do you not pick up that drink? Because those intrusive thoughts are so loud. What are you doing in those situations?

• 55:54Speaker 02

  I think the best thing you can do is distraction, because your brain is focused on that one thought. So you need to change your environment. So like, I also find moving really helpful. But if you are in a bar and having, really struggling with that thought, I would say leave. Put yourself first. It's not, you're not selfish. Whoever you're with will have to understand that you're, it's for your own, for your health, that you've got to stick to your decisions. So I'd say just get yourself out of the situation. Call a friend. I've made myself watch, like, I think it was Selling Sunset or something. Just, just to like, just take my brain, just take my brain somewhere else. Reach out to somebody that has been supportive on that journey, be it my sober coach or sober friend. Just be like, I've got, I'm having these thoughts. Just verbalise it, just say it

• 56:39Speaker 02

  out loud, because then it also takes it out of your head and you're able to go, or like, if you feel like you could journal in that moment, it's very hard to maybe sit and meditate. But do something that changes your environment, listen to music that you know the words to and just like, sing along.

• 56:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think it's really good just to say out loud, I'm leaving, I'm out. If you can't cope with it, you shouldn't have to sit there and suffer and deal with it and have that all going on in your head. Just walk out. If it's a great friend, they'll totally get it. You've mentioned a couple of times your sober coach. For anyone that doesn't know what that consists of, how you might work with one, what do they do?

• 57:16Speaker 02

  So it's like a therapist who specifically works on helping you understand your relationship with any addictive substance or any, I guess it's not just always a substance, is it? Sometimes it's gambling or sex or food. And he was someone I'd actually seen before. I'd tried to stop drinking before I had kids. And after about a month, I'd convinced myself that I could now drink responsibly. And obviously it didn't last, but I went back to him actually and I said, I'm serious this time. And I saw him every week, either online or just over Zoom.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  And he really explained to me, you know, it's not removing the, the first thing you're doing is removing the drink and not going, you know, every day being like, okay, I'm not going to drink. But then it's like, why do you want to drink and what's coming up? And what are all your deep rooted issues and really having to go into childhood stuff? And all the places I didn't want to look. And it took me a good few sessions before I had a breakthrough. I was like, oh, why is he keep going there? There's nothing there like.

• 58:27Fearne Cotton?

  Had a great childhood, everything was fine, no problems there.

• 58:31Speaker 02

  And then they like crack you open and you're like, whoa.

• 58:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And that's confronting. I mean, this is the thing, it's not, it's not about being disciplined. I think most people assume that with breaking any detrimental habit, it's all they're just more disciplined than me. I don't think many of us are naturally disciplined. I think it's a really hard thing to land on that you are just this regimented, disciplined person. It's actually the willingness to look at the why. Why am I doing this? What is the cause of it? And that's not easy. You know, it's hard work. It's hard to delve into the past and look at things that make you feel deeply uncomfortable and make you squirm, or you just flat refuse to go there. But it is a much more solid route to breaking a habit because you understand it.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he was very straight talking and he didn't sugarcoat things and I really needed that directness. And that, I found the right person for me. I think with any kind of therapy relationship, it's got to be the right, the right person for you. But there are like loads of places people can look for support, whether it's online or in person, and they want like a more of a group element where you've got that kind of group sharing. There's, there's lots of sober coaches that offer courses as well.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  I've got a friend who's in AA and I'm actually really interested in doing the 12 steps. We talk about step work quite a lot. And actually, we're going to do 12 steps together over the next year and do them just the two of us.

• 1:00:02Fearne Cotton?

  It's a really great modality for anything, even outside of alcohol, just like self-examination and creating inventories about people and places and things. It's really, really cool. Obviously, in the book, and you've mentioned here today, your husband Hugo and his role in your life as your partner and your best friend and someone that massively looks out for you. I think there'll be many people listening to this that will be the Hugo in the situation that has deep worries about the person they're married to, or they're best friends with, or they're brother or sister to, whatever. And they want that person to make positive changes, but they're not. And, and I'm sure you'll recognise that breaking any habit, you know, I can look back at when I had bulimia and people were worried about

• 1:00:47Fearne Cotton?

  me, or I knew that what I was doing was a terrible, terrible idea. But until I was ready, and I don't even know why I got to that place, but until I was ready. I couldn't do a thing. There was, I had good intent, but it would never happen. You've got to be ready. But what advice would you give or what would you say to somebody in Hugo's position where they care so deeply about someone and they want them to get better and to make changes, but you're kind of out of control. What was helpful to you in those moments when Hugo was talking to you?

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  Just being able to hold space for somebody and really

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  allowing the space to have those difficult conversations and to really understand what's coming up for them. You know, we're just very real with each other now. I can tell him my weird intrusive thoughts. We, to be honest, I realised when, after I had kids and we didn't have a deeper connection because the age we'd first met each other, I was actually sixteen when I first met him. And even when we got back together after I was divorced, we just, you know, we fancied each other, we loved each other, but we didn't really like connect on a deeper level. It was still very much all just like we were attracted to each other. We just, we just knew that

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  we wanted to be together. But it wasn't until more, I was on my own sobriety journey that I started to be like, we actually don't know each other on a deeper level and we both went and, yeah, our marriage was really not in a good place. Not just after I stopped drinking, but I'd say even a year in, I was just having a hard time myself mentally. When I started to feel better in myself, I could also do more work on the relationship and kind of just, I feel like we've just been able to meet each other more in the same place. And he, he knows me better than anyone. I think he's just been, he's been really understanding about the, I had to own up to, we did couples therapy and

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  I really had to own up to the harm that I'd caused him in the relationship through my drinking. And the horrible things I'd said to him. I've turned into quite a mean drunk in the last couple of years of drinking, which I feel, I do feel horrible about that. And I think we've, we've resolved the issues now, but the We weren't dealing with our issues and that was another reason, I think, I would just drink and not talk about it, but then it would all come out in the wrong way when I was drunk.

• 1:03:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and how brilliant you can sit and say that. Like, we've all said massively fucked up things to people, all of us. And we've done things that are regrettable or have felt not very nice. And I think it's bizarre when we pretend otherwise, that, and that's, I guess, when we start judging other people and going, you're this, you're that, and we're not looking at our own mistakes that we've all made, and how healthy that you can talk to him about that really openly. And it's actually brought so much more of a deeper connection between you both and a stronger marriage out of it. And again, you know, you talk about this in the book, because there'll be people at home now listening, thinking, well, I want to stop

• 1:04:01Fearne Cotton?

  drinking, but my partner still drinks. And Hugo does drink, but you navigate that pretty well.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  I don't have an issue with him drinking. I'd say he definitely drinks less. He's doing dry Jan at the moment. And he can do a month without drinking, and he always feels really good and does it a couple of times a year. But he doesn't drink a lot at home. He goes out occasionally, like lots of his friends now have had, have young kids as well or having babies.

• 1:04:26Fearne Cotton?

  That's gonna slow things down in the drink department.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  So, yeah, and sometimes, you know, he might have a glass of wine at home, but I don't have any issue being around alcohol. It doesn't tempt me if there's alcohol in the house. I probably wouldn't want to go on a night out with him when he was gonna get super drunk, but that's actually pretty rare now anyway. But if he was gonna do that, it would probably be letting off some steam with a couple of his guy mates, and they'd probably get in at like, they'd probably get in at like 1am.

• 1:04:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  It's, we've all changed quite a lot.

• 1:04:57Fearne Cotton?

  With age and experience.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  But, you know, if he is out and he's hungover in the morning on the weekend, I enjoy getting up early with the girls and having that time, just us.

• 1:05:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so nice. I mean, this will, I'm sure your answers will be unsurprising, because we can all imagine what sobriety brings. But what do you think the benefits to living a sober life are for you?

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  The benefits are, it's like the clarity, knowing I'm not gonna wake up with a hangover tomorrow. Whereas before it was like, oh, I'm gonna go for dinner later and maybe I'll have one drink and who knows, like that night I could end up being out to like, you know, three A M. And then whatever I had planned the next day would be very difficult to to get through and I'd be a complete mess. And it was just this kind of roller coaster. And now it's like, just I found a lot more balance. My nervous system is a lot more balanced, thank God. And I just, I value the small things a lot more.

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  I'm more present. I'm still working on that because I am very good at being very busy all the time and focusing on embracing slowness. Really getting to know myself, enjoying time on my own. That's something that I real a real gift. I realised like how much I actually just love being alone.

• 1:06:20Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, me too. But you used to actively hate that.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hate it. Yeah, I used to hate being, I didn't wanna be alone with my thoughts at all. Now I now I actually would like the idea of spending a weekend on my own is like, oh, my god.

• 1:06:30Fearne Cotton?

  Literally.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  Heaven.

• 1:06:31Fearne Cotton?

  A heaven. I can't think of anything better than just being on my own.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  Just like in my house. So like maybe just with my dog. Just like, just, oh.

• 1:06:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, he loves me and he's not gonna say anything to me. He's not gonna ask me to do anything. It's great.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  You also, parenting is is really challenging.

• 1:06:48Fearne Cotton?

  It's full on.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  It's really full on. And I was being quite reactive as a parent and then afterwards being like, I don't wanna parent like that. Why am I, why do I go to that place and kids are triggering me and oh, my god, I'm being shouty and oh, my god, like just afterwards, just really hating how I'd responded to them. And sometimes that does still happen.

• 1:07:12Fearne Cotton?

  Of course. Well, it's hard.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  But I'm able, I think, to be a more conscious parent.

• 1:07:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, the benefits are endless and you've beautifully illustrated these in your book that by going completely sober or having moments of sobriety, especially if you know it's a problem for you, are only going to bring you brilliant benefits, but it's not a smooth journey to get there. I think it's so important that you outline in the book and we've chatted today about the fact that it's confronting. You need to look at your past, you need to have a, well, you're going to have clarity, whether you like it or not, about stuff that you don't want to look at, but it all takes you to a place of feeling better. Which does lead me to my last question, which is, Millie, where is your happy place?

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  My happy place is on a beach in the Maldives with my family.

• 1:08:03Fearne Cotton?

  Can we just go now? Get me there now.

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  Whenever I'm stressed, I go to my happy place. I'm sat, I'm sat on the beach, I'm looking out at the ocean and the kids are like playing next to me. Hugo's there, the sun shining, just the sound of the waves, just me, my family, just paradise. It's like I go there in my mind all the time.

• 1:08:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's a lovely happy place. I love it. Well, look, thank you so much. I think this has just been an amazingly honest, frank and important conversation. And I urge anyone who feels this chat resonates to go and get your brilliant book, Bad Drunk, because it's an important read. Thank you so much, Millie.

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:08:47Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, thanks, Millie. I really bloody loved that. I really loved it. Just thought it was really important to chat about alcohol in that way. In a way where you just know that you're in a bit of a cycle and a bad habit and life could be better without it. And I also, do you know what? I was really grateful for Millie's frank honesty. And the fact that even, you know, she says in the book, she can't promise to never drink again, but each day that she's living today, she has no desire and that's a really important shift, I think. That was great. Loved it. Bad Drunk is out right now. While you're here, let me tell you about another book. It's our Happy Place Book Club read for Feb and it's called So Thrilled For You.

• 1:09:30Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's so fun. It's written by Holly Bourne and I think this one is going to resonate for many, many of you listeners, especially the female ones. This is the plot. Nikki, Lauren, Charlotte and Steffi have been friends since university. Now in their 30s, life is pulling them in different directions, but the girls are reunited when Charlotte organises the baby shower from hell for pregnant Nikki. Tensions are going to be high as these women are forced to confront their own and each other's views about motherhood. Now, if I've whetted your appetite enough with that little teaser, do come and join us on Instagram at Happy Place Book Club. That's where we talk about books and this book specifically. And there'll be loads of cool behind the scenes content. Holly will be joining me

• 1:10:14Fearne Cotton?

  on the podcast as well to talk about the book, this brilliant book she's written in a few weeks. So do keep an eye on your feed for that one. Right, I'm back here next week. But in the meantime, a huge thanks again to Millie, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you gorgeous lot.

• 1:10:58Speaker 03

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• 1:12:24Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel. And Maisy Adam. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yes. A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.