SERIAL KILLER: Zodiac Killer Pt. 2

As fear gripped California, the Zodiac Killer escalated his mind games—sending letters, making threats, and pushing police and the public to the brink. In Part 2, we trace his psychological unraveling, the search for his true identity, and the failed attempts to bring one of America’s most notorious murderers to justice. Killer Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Don’t miss out on all things Killer Minds! Instagram: @killerminds https://www.instagram.com/killerminds/ | @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios X: @crimehousemedia https://x.com/crimehousemedia YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:40Vanessa Richardson?

  By nature, most criminals want to avoid attention. They do everything they can to fly under the radar so they can continue to break the law without fear of getting caught. Same goes for serial killers. They'll present a mask of normalcy, like Ted Bundy, or go after victims on the fringes of society, like Joel Rifkin. But not the Zodiac Killer. He courted attention in the most public way possible: by bragging about his crimes in the newspapers. He even supposedly left clues about his real identity. As a result, he made sure everyone knew about him, even if they never learned his name.

• 1:36Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes, it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 1:51Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 1:59Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review, and follow Killer Minds. To enhance your listening experience with ad-free, early access to each two-part series and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. A warning: This episode contains depictions of knife and gun violence.

• 2:21Vanessa Richardson?

  Today, we'll conclude our deep dive into the Zodiac Killer, a serial killer known for the cryptic messages he used to tease police and terrify the public. He's believed to have killed at least five people in Northern California between 1968 and 1969, and more than 50 years later, we still don't know his real name.

• 2:44Tristin Engels?

  As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like: Why a criminal like the Zodiac manipulates and escalates their threats? How the mythology of a madman like the Zodiac impacts our collective psychology? And what happens to the public, the police, and the media when a terrifying mass murderer like the Zodiac is never caught?

• 3:06Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question: What makes a killer?

• 3:17Vanessa Richardson?

  On the night of December 20th, 1968, the Zodiac Killer began his reign of terror when he murdered two teenagers: 17-year-old David Faraday and 16-year-old Betty Lou Jensen. Over the next few months, the Zodiac continued his rampage, killing three more victims and injuring two others. The crimes themselves were frightening enough, but what set the Zodiac apart were the cryptic, unhinged letters he sent to newspapers throughout California's Bay Area. The messages terrified people throughout the region, and as Christmas of 1969 approached, the authorities weren't any closer to solving the case.

• 4:01Vanessa Richardson?

  But on December 20th of that year, on the anniversary of his first attack, there was a new development. That day, an attorney named Melvin Belli received his own letter from the Zodiac. The two of them had a history. Back in October, the Zodiac had promised to call into a TV show if Belli appeared on it. And although his request seemed to be legitimate, the person who'd phoned into the show was not the Zodiac Killer. But it seemed like the Zodiac was still fixated on Melvin Belli, because instead of mailing his latest letter to a newspaper, as usual, he sent it straight to Belli's door. To prove it was really him, the Zodiac included a bloody piece of fabric

• 4:45Vanessa Richardson?

  he'd taken from his last victim, Paul Stein. And if the letter's contents were to be believed, Belli wondered if the Zodiac was finally ready to end his game. The note began as follows: "Dear Melvin, this is the Zodiac speaking. I wish you a happy Christmas. The one thing I ask you is this: Please help me. I cannot reach out for help because of this thing in me won't let me. I am finding it extremely difficult to hold it in check."

• 5:20Tristin Engels?

  So this letter certainly sounds like the Zodiac is having an internal struggle of some kind. It's not uncommon for certain offenders, particularly those who may be battling with underlying psychosis or a dissociative state, to momentarily reach out for help when their fantasy world is challenged with reality. The line "this thing in me won't let me" reads like he's trying to externalize blame and separate himself from his dark side. This could indicate delusional thinking, as if he believes these violent impulses are being driven by an unseen force that he doesn't have control of. But it's also important to consider whether or not this is also manipulative. Because this is the Zodiac, he loves to play games. Is this even genuine? Because why is he reaching out to Melvin?

• 6:05Tristin Engels?

  He's not revealing his identity during this plea for help. So pretending to show weakness like this could have been a tactic to, once again, keep everyone interested, everyone talking, and everyone speculating.

• 6:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Whatever the Zodiac's intentions were, he left a crucial piece of information out of his letter: how to actually get in touch with him. So it's hard to know just how honest he was being about wanting help. However, he did go quiet after that. But after three months, the Zodiac couldn't hold back any longer. On March 22, 1970, he made his next appearance.

• 6:43Vanessa Richardson?

  That day, a young woman named Kathleen Johns decided to drive eight hours across California from San Bernardino to the Bay Area city of Petaluma. She had an infant daughter and was seven months pregnant, but her mother was sick, and Kathleen wanted to be by her side. With her 10-month-old daughter safely in the back, she set off around 4:00 P.M. It was a long drive, but Kathleen had done it before and knew the roads well. Though just before midnight, something strange happened. Kathleen was driving down a country road when a car pulled up close behind her, flashing its headlights. It seemed like the driver was trying to warn her about something, so Kathleen pulled over at the next turnout.

• 7:28Vanessa Richardson?

  Once she parked, the other car came to a stop behind her. A man climbed out and walked over to Kathleen's window. He said one of her rear tires looked wobbly, but he'd gladly tighten it up for her. Kathleen accepted the offer, and the man grabbed his tools. After a few minutes, he said she was good to go. Relieved that she'd averted disaster, Kathleen put the car into gear and drove away, but it seemed like the stranger hadn't fixed the problem. Almost immediately, the right rear wheel came off completely. Left with no choice, Kathleen pulled over again. The man had watched the whole thing happen. This time, he offered her a ride to a gas station.

• 8:12Vanessa Richardson?

  Not wanting to be stranded in the middle of nowhere with her infant daughter, Kathleen said yes. As they drove, Kathleen started chatting to calm her nerves. With her daughter sitting on her lap, Kathleen asked if the man usually went around helping people in the middle of the night. He responded, quote, "When I get through with them, they don't need any help." The words sent a bolt of fear through Kathleen. She realized this man was no kind stranger, she was in real danger. Those fears were confirmed when the man passed a gas station without stopping, and then another. He drove them aimlessly along backroads for several hours, only breaking the silence

• 8:56Vanessa Richardson?

  to say he was going to kill Kathleen and her daughter. Eventually, the man was forced to stop the car when he accidentally drove the wrong way up a highway on-ramp. Kathleen seized the moment, grabbing her daughter and jumping out of the vehicle. The man gave chase, but was thankfully interrupted when a truck driver stopped to see what the commotion was. Before Kathleen could shout out, the stranger jumped back into his car and drove away. The truck driver offered to help Kathleen, but she refused to accept another ride from a man she didn't know, so he agreed to wait with her until they could flag down a female motorist to give her a ride to the nearest police station.

• 9:39Vanessa Richardson?

  At 2:30 a.m. on March 23rd, Kathleen stumbled into the Patterson Police Station, about 100 miles from Petaluma. When she sat down to speak with an officer, Kathleen's eyes darted to a wanted poster on the wall. As soon as Kathleen saw it, she screamed, "Oh my God, that's him!" It was a sketch of the Zodiac Killer.

• 10:04Tristin Engels?

  The abduction of Kathleen and her infant daughter does not seem to fit the profile of the Zodiac Killer on the surface. Zodiac's prior crimes followed a fairly distinct pattern: young couples, isolated areas, surprised attacks, and very rapid violence, obviously with the exception of Paul. Kathleen's case is different in method, but not necessarily psychology. What he allegedly did to Kathleen wasn't physically brutal, it was mentally devastating. It was psychological dominance, and also an escalation of risk. Serial offenders, especially those driven by narcissism or delusions of grandeur, often get bolder over time. If this was Zodiac, it could have been him pushing the boundaries, seeing how much control

• 10:48Tristin Engels?

  he could exert without even having to use violence. He had her trapped psychologically and he knew it. He also had her trapped physically. It's also interesting that he vacillated between playing the savior and then the perpetrator. It makes me feel like he first needed to set the stage for a performance of his yet again. Now, to include her infant daughter in this, he's been threatening to go after children. And this could have been his attempt to show that he was serious and to keep the public feeling unsafe in all spaces at all times again. But then why let her go? Didn't really seem like he had much of a choice. And he definitely would benefit by having a witness who can say definitively that this

• 11:31Tristin Engels?

  guy fits the description of the man who attacked me. He wants people to know what he did and that it was done by the Zodiac, and then they can tell everyone their terrifying story. So while the tactics may have shifted, again, similarly with Paul, the signature elements are there: control, psychological torment, symbolism, and most of all, that need to be remembered.

• 11:53Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think it could be that he maybe was really trying to restrain himself here?

• 11:58Tristin Engels?

  I think if we take Kathleen's account at face value, then it's entirely possible. And if that's the case, there are a few things that would explain that. First, he's testing impulse control versus fantasy control. So many serial offenders are ruled by compulsions, but they also have elaborate internal fantasies. The Zodiac may have been testing his control by getting right up to the edge of violence without crossing the line. Second, it could have been an experiment in restraint, like you were saying. This incident may have been his attempt to prove to himself that he could control the urge, or to see how long he could control the urge for when given the chance. But whatever the reason, really, what he did to Kathleen was definitely deliberate

• 12:43Tristin Engels?

  and calculated.

• 12:45Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, whether or not the Zodiac had intended to kill Kathleen, he covered his tracks well. After Kathleen escaped, he drove back to her car and lit it on fire. By the time officers found it the next morning, it was impossible to collect any forensic evidence from it. It seems like the incident inspired the Zodiac to start writing letters again, and he was no longer asking for help. Throughout the spring and summer of 1970, he sent multiple messages to the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper. Along with vague threats of mass violence, like setting off a bomb, these letters had strange requests. For instance, he wanted people to wear pins with his symbol of a crossed circle on them.

• 13:28Vanessa Richardson?

  He didn't really explain why he was asking for this, but whatever game the Zodiac was playing, he seemed to be growing increasingly unstable with every letter. And one writer at the San Francisco Chronicle, Paul Avery, was carefully tracking every new development in the case. Avery had been covering the Zodiac ever since the Chronicle received the first letter back on July 31, 1969. After Paul Stein was murdered that October, Avery had written a taunting article of his own, labeling the Zodiac "a clumsy killer, a liar, and a latent homosexual." The Zodiac had never acknowledged this article, or mentioned Avery in any of his letters,

• 14:11Vanessa Richardson?

  but it seems like he did read it, and wasn't happy about what Avery wrote. Because about a year after Paul Stein's murder, on October 27, 1970, the Zodiac sent Avery his own "personal" postcard. On the card, a joyful-looking skeleton wearing a pumpkin waved to the reader. Written next to that was a message that said, quote, "Paradise slaves, by gun, by knife, by fire, by rope." And on the other side of the postcard, quote, "From your secret pal, I know you ache to know my name, so I'll clue you in, but then why spoil the game? Happy Halloween."

• 14:57Tristin Engels?

  These letters continue to show a shift in tone and boldness. It's as if he's putting on different emotional masks to see what gets the most attention. And now with this letter to Paul, he's shifting away from that boldness to something more personal, because it seems like a warning, but also a game at the same time, which is definitely the Zodiac's style. Instead of random targets, he's now toying with someone specific, someone in the media spotlight, and I think that's because he wants to be known, but also to show that he can infiltrate someone's personal life, too. These letters feel like he's not just evolving as a killer, but he's adapting to the attention he gets accordingly.

• 15:37Vanessa Richardson?

  The Zodiac didn't have any confirmed kills after murdering Paul Stein in October of 1969. When Paul Avery got that postcard, it had been over a year. So why do you think the threats are escalating, but not necessarily the crimes?

• 15:51Tristin Engels?

  So the large gap between Paul's death and the increase in letters, to me, indicates that he's trying to still build a narrative, perhaps. He's a performer, as I outlined in episode one, and his letters become the stage where he gets to act out his power. Even without violence, he could control the headlines, he can terrify a city, and he can insert himself into the national consciousness like this.

• 16:14Vanessa Richardson?

  While considering it had been so long since the Zodiac claimed any victims, Paul Avery didn't feel threatened by the postcard, or at least that's what he told reporters, but just to be safe, he got a permit to carry a gun. Regardless of how Paul felt about the postcard, it was major news. Papers throughout California ran stories about it, including in the city of Riverside in Southern California. It caught the attention of one person in particular, someone who knew something shocking about the Zodiac. This concerned citizen wrote to Paul Avery. He believed that the Zodiac may have murdered someone else in 1966, two years before he landed on the authorities' radar.

• 16:57Vanessa Richardson?

  And when Avery looked into this claim, it blew the entire case wide open.

• 17:07Vanessa Richardson?

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• 17:52Vanessa Richardson?

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• 18:17Speaker 01

  Can't switch off at night? Give your curious mind somewhere peaceful to wander. I'm Simon Mettacks, host of Sleepy History. Join me for lost cities and ancient mysteries, told slowly and calmly, to help you drift off. And if you miss the ending, oh, that's rather the idea. Find Sleepy History in your podcast app and try an episode tonight.

• 18:47Vanessa Richardson?

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• 19:30Vanessa Richardson?

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• 20:04Vanessa Richardson?

  In November 1970, crime reporter Paul Avery agreed to look into an unsolved murder from 1966, one that possibly involved the Zodiac Killer. The victim was an 18-year-old college student in Riverside, California, named Sherri Jo Bates. Because the case involved several different jurisdictions, it required someone to be a go-between for the different departments. The tipster thought Paul Avery was just the man for the job. Intrigued, Avery visited the Riverside Police and reviewed their evidence with the help of the city's police captain. He discovered that Sherri Jo Bates had been a freshman at Riverside

• 20:44Vanessa Richardson?

  City College. Sherri was popular, outgoing, and pretty, with blue eyes and blonde hair. She had big dreams to travel the world as an airline stewardess. Tragically, it was a dream that would never come to pass. On the afternoon of October 30, 1966, Sherri was late coming home from the library. When she didn't return home that evening, her father knew something was terribly wrong. Tragically, he was right. Sherri's body was found at 6:30 a.m. the next morning in a dirt alleyway. She'd been stabbed to death, and the killer had left evidence behind.

• 21:25Vanessa Richardson?

  The report said investigators had found a watch that may have fallen from the killer's wrist, a greasy set of fingerprints, and hairs under Sherri's fingernails. Forensic analysis showed the hairs belonged to a brown-haired white man. And as it turned out, Sherri's killer had written to the media shortly after her death. In the taunting confession letter, he said things like, "She was young and beautiful, but now she is battered and dead. She is not the first, and she will not be the last. But only one thing was on my mind: making her pay for the brush-offs she had given me years earlier.

• 22:07Vanessa Richardson?

  I am not sick, I am insane, but that won't stop the game. I'm stalking your girls now." And he had signed his threatening letter with a "Z." Paul Avery showed the letter to Sherwood Morrell, a handwriting expert who'd verified the Zodiac's previous letters. Morrell confirmed this letter had been written by him too, which meant this case may have been the true origin of the Zodiac killer.

• 22:37Tristin Engels?

  That letter indicates a sense of deep, personal resentment. The language in those messages isn't just cold, it's bitter. It reads like someone who felt humiliated or rejected and was projecting blame onto Sherri for that emotional wound. If the killer felt emasculated, invisible, or socially powerless, especially in relation to women, then he may have developed a compensatory fantasy of power and dominance. And this could explain why so many of the Zodiac's early targets were young couples. That image alone could have been triggering for feelings of jealousy, rejection, and rage. So when we step back and we look at the entire Zodiac timeline, starting with Sherri

• 23:18Tristin Engels?

  "Joe Bates" as a possible trigger or starting point, that shift to couples and the escalating need for recognition, the grandiose beliefs about the afterlife, it all paints the picture of someone trying to take back control of a life where they felt powerless or rejected.

• 23:34Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think it's plausible that he would go now two years between kills?

• 23:38Tristin Engels?

  Yes, it's definitely plausible. Serial killers aren't always driven by nonstop compulsion. Some go through what we call a cooling off period or sleeper period, where the urge temporarily fades or other factors in their life take over, like stress, illness, incarceration, family life. And in some cases, serial killers were able to stop for a period of time because they found satisfaction from earlier kills or replacement behaviors that ward off those urges. And in the Zodiac's case, these letters that he writes could be that replacement behavior. These periods can last weeks, months, even years. And given that this is possibly his first kill and it appeared emotionally driven, he might have been a little shaken up or paranoid,

• 24:23Tristin Engels?

  not even sure how to process it. Or conversely, he was taking the time to process how he could improve upon this for future kills. Some killers describe a sense of emotional confusion or internal chaos after their first kill. It's not always addictive right away. Sometimes they lie low, they reflect, they fantasize, and they plot, again, how they can do it with more control.

• 24:49Vanessa Richardson?

  But for the authorities, the letter was much more than the Zodiac's origin story. It was an opportunity to identify the elusive killer. Although the forensic evidence hadn't led anywhere at the time of Sherri Jo's murder, there was a chance the increased publicity could give them a new lead. So in mid-November 1970, Paul Avery wrote a piece for The Chronicle detailing the connections between the Riverside slaying and the Zodiac's other crimes. He hoped the article would jog somebody's memory, but after five months, every lead, tip, and call turned out to be bogus. Even more concerning, the Zodiac himself was silent for five months.

• 25:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Until March 13th, 1971, when he sent another letter to the Los Angeles Times, it started like all the others, quote, "This is the Zodiac speaking. Like I have always said, I am crack-proof. If the blue meanies are ever going to catch me, they had best get off their fat asses and do something, because the longer they fiddle and fart around, the more slaves I will collect for my afterlife. I do have to give them credit for stumbling across my riverside activity, but they are only finding the easy ones. There are a hell of a lot more down there."

• 26:15Vanessa Richardson?

  It wasn't clear why the Zodiac waited so long to acknowledge that he murdered Sherri Jo Bates, but the letter wasn't as clever as he thought, because a few months later, a man named Donald Lee Chaney came forward with more than a lead. He gave the authorities a name: Arthur Lee Allen. Donald had known Arthur since 1962, six years before Sherri was murdered. They'd met through Arthur's younger brother, Ron, and he seemed to be completely normal. Even though 29-year-old Arthur was older than Donald, they became fast friends. He was a good hunting buddy, and they liked having beers together. But beyond that, Donald didn't know that much about him.

• 27:00Vanessa Richardson?

  Though after spending more time with him, Donald realized some frightening things about Arthur. Sometime around New Year's Day, 1969, Donald was over at Arthur's apartment in Vallejo, California, the same city where the Zodiac had killed two teenagers about a week earlier. Arthur had recently been fired from his teaching job at an elementary school. He didn't say why, but he was in a dark place. And that day, Donald remembered seeing a science fiction magazine opened to a very specific story, "The Man from Zodiac." On its own, it could be a coincidence, but Donald also remembered something else.

• 27:42Vanessa Richardson?

  During their last hunting trip, Arthur had mentioned his interest in another story, "The Most Dangerous Game," which was about hunting people. The Zodiac referenced that same story in the first letter he sent a few months later in July, 1969.

• 28:00Vanessa Richardson?

  And Arthur's connection to the Zodiac Killer wasn't just intellectual. There was a physical connection, too. During that visit with Donald in early 1969, Arthur showed him a prized possession, a watch his mother had given him. It had a memorable symbol, a cross within a circle, which the Zodiac Killer later used as his insignia. Not only that, but Arthur mentioned he could make money by becoming a private eye, then committing crimes only he could solve. And the methods he described were very specific. Arthur told Donald that he would go after couples parked in remote lovers' lanes.

• 28:42Vanessa Richardson?

  To kill them, he'd use a flashlight taped to a gun. And he'd choose victims at random to throw off the police. Then he would send them strange letters to confuse them. Arthur said he would sign them Zodiac. Donald also remembered Arthur saying he could use one of his rifles to shoot a tire off a school bus and, quote, "pick off the little darlings one by one." It was a line that exactly matched something the Zodiac wrote in one of his letters.

• 29:15Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, these similarities are striking. Aside from the methods, the motives, the connection to the Zodiac, the interest in the dangerous game, all of those things that are very striking. It sounds like he was even character-building as he was allegedly talking about this with Donald. And that, to me, is the most compelling part about this from my perspective and a forensic psychology lens. Obviously, that's not enough to say definitively that he is the Zodiac. We still need proof. We need proof that he had these fantasies that became reality. We need proof that can really only be confirmed through the investigative process and the evidence. But talking about becoming a private eye and what he planned to do with that and how he envisioned things is, again, narrating his story.

• 30:00Tristin Engels?

  And he's doing it in the same way that the Zodiac has been characteristically doing in his letters. And that, again, that's the striking part about this.

• 30:08Vanessa Richardson?

  Now, regardless of whether or not Arthur Lee Allen was the Zodiac Killer, what do you make of someone who's interested, at least hypothetically, in hunting people?

• 30:18Tristin Engels?

  That is always concerning because it's an indication of predatory thinking or even power fantasies. If Allen did say those things, even hypothetically, it could really be an indication that he is fascinated with violence, control, and transgression. That doesn't mean he acted on it, but from a clinical perspective, we wouldn't just brush that off as a joke. If that was brought to me in any professional setting, we'd take it very seriously. In fact, many violent offenders signal their internal desires long before they act on them. Not all, but many do. And it's not something that should be dismissed or minimized.

• 30:55Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, the whole thing creeped Donald out, and he left that day feeling a deep sense of unease. Afterwards, he'd done his best to keep that afternoon out of his mind. But after seeing the Zodiac's letter in March of 1971, the memories came flooding back. He was more certain than ever that Arthur Lee Allen was the Zodiac Killer. And after hearing his story, the authorities thought so too.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  In 2010, a family of four in California goes missing. Investigators spend years looking for answers. Is this a family on the run? Or is the truth far more sinister? From ABC Audio in 2020, this is What Happened to the Mixed Days? Follow What Happened to the Mixed Days for weekly episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Or if you can't wait, the entire series is streaming now, ad-free for subscribers to 2020 True Crime Plus. Find 2020 True Crime Plus on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today.

• 31:58Vanessa Richardson?

  In July 1971, authorities finally got their first credible suspect in the Zodiac Killer investigation, 37-year-old Arthur Lee Allen. Not only did he live in Riverside when Sherri Jo Bates was killed in 1966, but he'd moved up to Vallejo by late 1968, at the same time the Zodiac's first official victims were murdered. And he was still in the area, working at an oil refinery. On August 4th, 1971, Inspectors Dave Toshi and Bill Armstrong of the San Francisco PD and Jack Mullenax of the Vallejo PD decided to pay 37-year-old Arthur a visit at work.

• 32:42Vanessa Richardson?

  When they arrived, the floor supervisor brought Toshi, Armstrong, and Mullenax to a small room. There, the three investigators waited anxiously until Arthur lumbered into the room. Upon seeing the officers, he froze, seemingly in shock.

• 32:59Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about the element of surprise. Because if we're being honest, whether you're guilty or not, if you are called into an office and see a lot of investigators in there, it's a jarring sight. An unexpected confrontation can cause a disruption in cognitive control. The limbic system takes over, momentarily overriding the part of the brain that governs self-regulation. So people are less filtered and more likely to be honest in these situations, even if that honesty is in small tells or cracks in a facade. This is the whole reason why law enforcement uses the element of surprise to begin with. Because they want to observe a person of interest's real-time psychological response before they can shift into self-protection mode

• 33:44Tristin Engels?

  or organize their thoughts, and in some cases, their alibis. That being said, Arthur's reaction doesn't confirm anything on its own, but emotional control, tone, and nonverbal behavioral reactions can be telling of something.

• 33:59Vanessa Richardson?

  Arthur wasn't the only one taken by surprise, though. The officers were too. They'd looked at a photo of Arthur before coming, but seeing him in person, it was undeniable. He definitely matched the physical description of the Zodiac Killer. Arthur was tall and stocky, with eyes somewhere between blue and brown. His light, thinning hair matched the Zodiacs as well. And it seems like others had made the connection, because Arthur revealed that he'd been questioned before, after the Zodiac's third attack, stabbing a couple at Lake Berriessa on September 27th, 1969. That was a surprise to the officers. Since that attack wasn't in their jurisdiction,

• 34:41Vanessa Richardson?

  they had no idea Arthur had ever been questioned. And although his alibi had held up back then, it seemed much shakier now. Arthur told them he'd gone diving at Salt Point State Park that weekend, which was the opposite direction from Lake Berryessa. He said he'd spoken to a neighbor after coming home that day around 4:00 PM, before the murders occurred. However, there was no way to confirm that, because according to Arthur, the neighbor had died shortly after. Perhaps Arthur realized he seemed suspicious, and he may have wanted to get ahead of what the officers would ask him next, because out of nowhere, he admitted to having two bloody knives

• 35:25Vanessa Richardson?

  in his car on the day of that attack. His excuse? He'd killed a chicken. The investigators felt like they had him on the ropes now. Bill Armstrong from the SFPD leaned forward and asked Arthur if he was in Southern California in 1966. Arthur said yes, around the same time Sherri Jo Bates had been killed in Riverside. That was another red flag. None of the officers had mentioned the Riverside murder, and even though it was public information, it would take remarkable recollection for someone to connect the dots like that, especially since they'd dropped by on Arthur unannounced. At that moment, Armstrong's colleague, Dave Toshi,

• 36:09Vanessa Richardson?

  caught a glimpse of light reflecting off of Alan's wristwatch. He asked to see it and realized the brand was called Zodiac. Not only that, it had a distinctive symbol, a circle with a cross through it. Arthur claimed the watch was a gift from his mother. He said she'd given it to him two years earlier, right around the time the Zodiac killer introduced himself in his infamous letters.

• 36:37Tristin Engels?

  All right, let's talk about the watch. From a psychological perspective, wearing something so conspicuously tied to a series of crimes that he had already been suspected of raises really important questions. Was it a coincidence, or was it arrogance? Or is it a subtle confession, that he's hiding in plain sight? The Zodiac is big on symbolism. He has even dressed in a Zodiac disguise. During one of his crimes. If Arthur is the Zodiac, wearing this watch could be his way of wearing his signature and making this identity a little less anonymous. He has been getting his thrills controlling people through anonymity, using fear tactics. This could be his way of testing out what it's like to hide in plain sight.

• 37:21Tristin Engels?

  It's a different kind of thrill and different kind of risk-taking behavior. In a sense, it's like displaying a trophy. Or it could be a coincidence. It's not definitive proof of guilt, of course, but it definitely speaks to his personality and his mindset. What do you make of his behavior during the interrogation? In your experience, do people try to get ahead of questions like that? I will be honest, that would raise suspicion for me, too. And not specifically regarding his guilt or not, but his personality structure and his insight. Before I explain why, I want to give a perspective on why it is not necessarily suspicious in terms of guilt. He's already been interrogated and he's suspected as the Zodiac Killer in the past and ruled out.

• 38:02Tristin Engels?

  That could have made him hyper-aware of how he is perceived, particularly by law enforcement. You kind of touched on this in the narration. Because of this, he may have assumed that the detectives knew about this past suspicion and he wanted to preemptively provide that information so it didn't seem like he was hiding anything or intentionally omitting it. Because if he didn't, and that would look bad, too. So now, the reason why I find this suspicious from a forensic psychology lens is because it feels like he's attempting to control the narrative and present as superior as if he is one step ahead of the questioning. That is similar to the profile of the Zodiac, but more importantly, it may be a form of manipulation. He might have been attempting to manage their focus and deflect suspicion or even dominate

• 38:46Tristin Engels?

  the interrogation. As a forensic psychologist, that raises suspicion regarding certain personality types or possible diagnoses to rule out and would definitely require more strategic questioning on my part.

• 39:00Vanessa Richardson?

  Armstrong, Mullinax, and Toshi were pretty certain that Arthur was their man. But while his behavior was suspicious, it didn't rise to the level of probable cause for a search warrant. And after that, the Zodiac went silent. Over a year went by with no progress on the case, and the authorities weren't the only ones getting frustrated. So was Arthur's brother, Ron. Despite their family bond, Ron thought Arthur's behavior was suspicious. He was even helping the Vallejo PD with their investigation. But he didn't feel like they were doing enough. So in September 1972, he reached out to Dave Toshi at the San Francisco PD. He wanted to talk about Arthur.

• 39:44Vanessa Richardson?

  Toshi and Bill Armstrong visited Ron and his wife at their home in Vallejo. The Allens spoke passionately about their suspicions, and that was enough for the officers to try again for a warrant. Finally, they got it. On September 14, 1972, Toshi and Armstrong got permission to search Arthur's trailer in Santa Rosa, about an hour's drive from Vallejo. When they arrived, the investigators learned they'd just missed Arthur. He'd left so quickly, he hadn't bothered to shut his front door. When they looked around, they found plenty of disturbing materials. There were bodies of dead squirrels and dissected animals in the freezer, and a large collection

• 40:29Vanessa Richardson?

  of sadomasochistic pornography. But none of it implicated him in the Zodiac's crimes. After about 45 minutes, Arthur returned home. The detectives had permission to take his fingerprints and had him write down passages from the Zodiac's letters to compare handwriting. None of it was a match.

• 40:52Vanessa Richardson?

  The detectives had to leave without making an arrest. As convincing as the circumstantial evidence was, the physical evidence just didn't line up with it. But there was always the possibility that the prints they got from the crime scenes didn't belong to the Zodiac, and Arthur could have disguised his handwriting. So the authorities kept an eye on him, and his behavior remained problematic, to say the least. On October 4th, 1974, Arthur was arrested by the Solano County Sheriff's Office for molesting a young boy. He was found guilty and sent to a state hospital for therapy and rehabilitation. After his arrest, police discovered that his trailer was close to where a string of

• 41:36Vanessa Richardson?

  women had disappeared between 1972 and 1973 in Santa Rosa. These crimes were known as the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker Murders. Arthur became a person of interest and was given a polygraph test. Although polygraphs aren't foolproof, Arthur passed without suspicion, and in a strange way, his criminal history actually lessened the possibility that he was the Zodiac. Arthur was a convicted pedophile, and traditionally, they don't seek out victims who aren't children.

• 42:10Tristin Engels?

  See, I disagree with that. I really do. I think that's actually a possible bias or cognitive error on the part of law enforcement. Although it's true that the majority of the time, individuals with pedophilia target exclusively minors, the truth is, they often still have adult relationships too. Even Arthur had pornography in his possession, obviously of adults. The human mind is so complex, especially when it involves individuals who have more than one paraphilia disorder, and, let's say it's comorbid with other pathology, like antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy. And judging by what they found in his home or in his shed... I would definitely be evaluating him for these things, given the animals, the dissection

• 42:53Tristin Engels?

  and the sadomasochistic pornography. But there are a number of serial killers who targeted both men and women, adults and minors. This would be no different. There are many reasons why that is. The primary is being the opportunity and the vulnerability. They are also seeking power and control, and that is more central to any sexual desire. So in these more complex cases, it's about feeding the internal need for dominance and whoever is available, vulnerable, and desirable could be targeted. Let's also not forget, the Zodiac did target children. First with his letters, wanting to pick them off at the bus stops, but then also with his abduction of Kathleen, who was seven months pregnant and had a 10-month-old infant.

• 43:37Tristin Engels?

  Does that mean that Allen is the Zodiac? Not necessarily, but it also doesn't exclude him psychologically in the way that it sounds that they might have done. Does Allen's hadophilia conviction make him less likely to have murdered older victims? No, not necessarily. In fact, it would make him more dangerous, depending on how broad his pathology truly was.

• 44:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Whether or not Arthur Lee Allen was capable of going after different victims like the Zodiac, he remained a person of interest, even after his death from a heart attack in 1992 at age 58. In 2000, two San Francisco homicide inspectors took over the Zodiac case. Using newly-developed DNA technology, they compared Arthur's frozen brain tissue to samples collected from the envelopes from the Zodiac letters. It took two years, but in 2002, the tests came back negative. With that, Arthur Lee Allen was officially ruled out as a suspect.

• 44:42Vanessa Richardson?

  Over the years, investigators have looked into over 2,500 persons of interest. There was an obsessed Zodiac fan, a naval officer who hated women, and even a member of the Manson family cult. But in the end, just like Arthur Lee Allen, they were all ruled out. In 2004, the murder of Paul Stein was classified as an inactive case by the SFPD. And while the other Zodiac cases remain open, nothing conclusive has been brought to the authorities in decades.

• 45:16Vanessa Richardson?

  It seems like we may never learn the Zodiac's true identity, and his victims may not get the justice they deserve. But while that part of the story remains a mystery, one thing is clear: The Zodiac, whoever he was, went out of his way to make sure he left his mark on society. And he succeeded. In one of his letters, he said that man is the world's most dangerous animal. But the Zodiac killer proved man is also the world's most terrifying predator.

• 46:03Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for another deep dive into the mind of another murderer.

• 46:10Tristin Engels?

  Killer Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram at Killer Minds. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 46:29Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting Crime House bonus content.

• 46:46Vanessa Richardson?

  Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Dan Merk, Beth Johnson, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 47:17Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.