Live On Your Edge with Dr. Orna Guralnik

Dr. Orna Guralnik, famed psychoanalyst and star of Showtime’s Couples Therapy, joins Michelle and Craig to answer a listener’s question about disconnection and boredom in her marriage. Craig explains why he hid the problems in his first marriage from his family, Michelle discusses a pet peeve that drives her nuts, and Dr. Orna explains how to be truly present with another person in any long-term relationship. Plus, IMO gets its first furry guest! Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What are you thinking about?

• 0:01Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  A penny for your thought.

• 0:03Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  What are you thinking about?

• 0:04Michelle Obama?

  And then do they, do you really go there?

• 0:07Speaker 00

  And then?

• 0:07Michelle Obama?

  Do you really say? Because how many times do you, somebody asks, what are you thinking about? And you're like, well, let me make up a thing.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  Right.

• 0:15Michelle Obama?

  Cause I don't wanna actually tell you what I was thinking about.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  Really happened right now.

• 0:18Michelle Obama?

  Which was like, the way you're chewing makes me wanna smack you upside the head.

• 0:23Craig Robinson?

  That's why guys don't wanna have it ever say.

• 0:25Speaker 00

  That would be a hit. And that would be really interesting. You could like open something up there in a big way.

• 0:31Michelle Obama?

  Why does your chewing annoy me so much?

• 0:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 0:33Michelle Obama?

  Let's discuss.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 0:40Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Progressive Insurance. Well, hi there. How are you?

• 0:47Craig Robinson?

  I'm terrific. How are you?

• 0:48Michelle Obama?

  I like you blue.

• 0:50Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, I'm, I wear blue more.

• 0:51Michelle Obama?

  You're looking good.

• 0:52Craig Robinson?

  I feel good. I feel good.

• 0:54Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, that's good.

• 0:56Craig Robinson?

  So today's show is gonna be a knockout.

• 0:59Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. You know, one of my favorite topics and one of my favorite people.

• 1:04Craig Robinson?

  Yes.

• 1:04Michelle Obama?

  You know, talking about marriage, the challenges of marriage and all that good stuff.

• 1:10Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, you know, um, well, one question is now that, you know, I'm on my second marriage, people ask me, do we talk about our relationships?

• 1:21Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:22Craig Robinson?

  And I tell people all the time, now we do.

• 1:26Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, no, that, I mean, when you were on your first marriage, we were very close. We were close with you and your first wife, lived down the street from one another.

• 1:37Craig Robinson?

  Right, socialized.

• 1:39Michelle Obama?

  Did, did a whole lot together, but then, you know, it was sort of a surprise when it was, when it ended.

• 1:47Craig Robinson?

  Yes, and it was a surprise. And let me help the audience understand why it was a surprise because I was always of the mindset that it was gonna work out. We were gonna figure it out. We go to counseling, we do this, we do all these things and things would work out. And that if they worked out and you guys knew all the things that were going on, I will have forgiven her and then you all would still be mad because I know how you and mom, my mom are, so.

• 2:15Michelle Obama?

  But the thing is now, because all those years that you guys were struggling and dealing with stuff, I'd check in with both of you. How's it going? You'd be great. We're fine. And after that, I was like, don't, your fine means nothing to me.

• 2:30Craig Robinson?

  It didn't.

• 2:32Michelle Obama?

  So now, it's like, so I guess that's the long way of saying, no, we actually didn't really fully talk about our marriages.

• 2:39Craig Robinson?

  Given all the stuff that we talked about too, and continue to talk about, we never talked about our marriages. And, and, and by me not wanting to talk about mine made me not ask you about yours, because then you'd ask me about mine, and then I'd have to tell you what's going on. So.

• 2:55Michelle Obama?

  And it wasn't good.

• 2:56Craig Robinson?

  And it wasn't good. It wasn't good. And so it made me think about mom and dad, right? And I, I, I tell people all the time, I remember mom and dad having one argument in front of us. One argument. And I don't know what it was about, but I do remember that dad, and, and we can laugh at this now, you know, for those of you out there didn't know, my dad was, was disabled and he had crutches. And he got mad at my mom and he tried to act like he was gonna get up and leave. And this would have been like one of those, like a 20 minute thing for him to leave. You can't just walk out when you got crutches. And so

• 3:38Craig Robinson?

  he's getting his cap, he put his cap on and he's, you hear these crutches crumbling around, clanging around. And he, and my mom was like, Frasier, I cannot believe, are you getting ready to leave? You're just gonna leave in the middle of an argument? And I was standing there with my mouth open. Do you remember that?

• 3:56Michelle Obama?

  I do. And I remember going, Dad, we, we wouldn't let him leave. I mean, I think I was hanging on a leg. We were gonna make it really hard for him to walk out the door.

• 4:05Craig Robinson?

  Kick a crutch out from under him.

• 4:07Michelle Obama?

  Really? You're walking out the door? I don't, because you're right, we didn't know what the argument was about. But yeah, he was, he called himself, I'm just gonna take a walk around the block. We're like, nah, we've got you trapped in here. Yeah, we were little. Yeah, now, now that you bring it up.

• 4:22Craig Robinson?

  So that is how traumatic that was. Was because it was the one and only time that they had a fight. So I don't remember them even talking about their relationship with each other.

• 4:35Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I, I think mom probably shared more with me as I got older. Cause I, you know, I do remember, because as I started get, as I became a married woman and I, I talked to mom. I shared some of the frustrations and some of the ups and downs. And, you know, one thing she divulged to me was, she said that for a period when we were in school and she was at home, cause she was a housewife until I went to high school. She said every spring she would wake up, there'd be a day she'd wake up and think about leaving dad. I was like, what?

• 5:15Craig Robinson?

  How come I didn't know?

• 5:16Michelle Obama?

  She never told you that.

• 5:17Craig Robinson?

  No, of course not. I would have been.

• 5:19Michelle Obama?

  But she used it as an example of like, you know, well, what she would say is like, you think you have problems, you know, you think you can't deal with it. But if you leave this one, you're just gonna go out in the world and find somebody else and you, you'll have to deal with their issues. Because her point was, everybody has issues.

• 5:40Craig Robinson?

  So when she told you this, were you already married?

• 5:43Michelle Obama?

  Yes, yes. Cause I was older. She didn't tell me this when I was eight. That would have probably devastated me. Yeah.

• 5:49Craig Robinson?

  I was thinking maybe while I was in college and you were in high school.

• 5:53Michelle Obama?

  This was after I got married. This was during our conversations. You know, I'd get into the, how do you put up with men? And let me tell you what Barack did and, you know, and she'd always say, you know, no one's perfect, um, you know, everybody brings their baggage to the table. And she used that example. She said every year, it was almost like the, she had to renew her faith in her marriage and springtime was that time. It was probably, as I think about it, it's like you're sort of trapped in the winter, the dark, long winter of Chicago where nobody's going anywhere because it's just too cold. And then it starts to warm up and, you know, she always had that spring cleaning ritual too.

• 6:37Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 6:38Michelle Obama?

  She would have gotten the house ready for the new season. And it was probably her ritual of kind of shedding all the stuff from the winter, including thoughts of her husband.

• 6:50Craig Robinson?

  Cleaning him out.

• 6:51Michelle Obama?

  Cleaning him out, but I think she replaced leaving with cleaning. And she said, once she just sort of thought it through, she was like, well, we're, you know, I, do I really want to leave or do I, or am I looking for something else?

• 7:05Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 7:06Michelle Obama?

  And that, I found that to be a helpful disclosure. And I think that's an example of the way I think mom and dad tried to talk to us as openly and honestly about what life was, including marriage. So I think that helped me not walk into my marriage with completely unrealistic expectations that this man that I was going to marry was going to be my all and everything forever and ever. Amen. That's just not, you know, the way it works. And I, I am grateful to mom for, for being honest. And that's one of the reasons why I try to be honest with the world, with the people

• 7:49Michelle Obama?

  who follow me and Barack to our girls. Because, you know, people look at our marriage as the ideal, you know? Because in, in, in Instagram world, you, you know, you see two loving people doing a hard thing in the world, you know, always on stage, giving each other a hug after a big speech.

• 8:13Craig Robinson?

  And making it look easy.

• 8:14Michelle Obama?

  And making it look easy.

• 8:15Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 8:16Michelle Obama?

  Right?

• 8:16Craig Robinson?

  And it's not.

• 8:17Michelle Obama?

  And, and a lot of young people could look at that and go, I want a marriage like Michelle and Barack.

• 8:21Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 8:22Michelle Obama?

  And it's like, well, let me, you know, let me talk about what marriage is, you know, because it's even when it looks good, even when it's great, it's hard.

• 8:32Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Michelle Obama?

  And so I, I think it's important because, you know, it's very easy to quit on a marriage.

• 8:38Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, I'm thinking back now and I probably.

• 8:45Craig Robinson?

  Wouldn't have ever gone to a marriage counselor if I hadn't had trouble in my marriage.

• 8:51Michelle Obama?

  Did you guys go to counseling in your first marriage?

• 8:54Craig Robinson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:55Michelle Obama?

  See, I didn't even know that.

• 8:56Craig Robinson?

  I know, I know.

• 8:57Michelle Obama?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 8:57Craig Robinson?

  Because I'm not iconic and on social media, you don't, everybody doesn't know my business.

• 9:02Michelle Obama?

  But after all this time, I never knew that you guys actually went to counseling.

• 9:06Craig Robinson?

  Well, that's because of what moved on. But we tried some counseling and, you know, counseling only works as well as the people who are giving out the information. Well, I shouldn't say that. We'll have Dr. Orna come on and, and tell us the real scoop. But, you know, the way I looked at it is I'm gonna be completely open, you be completely open, and maybe we can work on that. But I didn't even know that there was an industry of therapy.

• 9:32Michelle Obama?

  Counseling, yeah. Yeah, that wasn't anything that our parents' generation.

• 9:36Craig Robinson?

  No way.

• 9:37Michelle Obama?

  I don't think I knew a single person who went to individual, let alone couples counseling.

• 9:42Craig Robinson?

  And the closest thing was, you know, the counselor at school for the kids who had mental issues. You know, you only, you only thought about therapy if you had some kind of mental issues, especially in the black community, right? People either went to their pastor, or they went to their barber shop and talked to the rest of the fellows. That was the, that was the extent of dad giving me some advice, right? We'd go to the barber shop and listen to stuff, and then we'd talk about it in the car. And then as I got older and in college, and I would talk about girls, he was still of the mindset, don't settle down, make sure you wear protection, and atta boy.

• 10:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 10:27Craig Robinson?

  You know?

• 10:31Michelle Obama?

  Did he ever give you, did dad ever give you any advice when you first got married?

• 10:36Craig Robinson?

  So, remember dad had died.

• 10:40Michelle Obama?

  But he knew Janice.

• 10:41Craig Robinson?

  He knew Janice.

• 10:42Michelle Obama?

  He knew Janice, and he knew that.

• 10:44Craig Robinson?

  But it was before we were having issues. So, at that point, the advice went from the sort of atta boy, protect yourself, to...

• 10:54Craig Robinson?

  There's a lot of temptations out here and you can possibly feel like you're getting bored in your relationship.

• 11:00Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 11:01Craig Robinson?

  Don't.

• 11:02Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, right. Don't do that.

• 11:05Craig Robinson?

  Don't do that.

• 11:05Michelle Obama?

  That's the deep, the deep.

• 11:07Craig Robinson?

  That was.

• 11:08Michelle Obama?

  Advice that you get, the therapy that would, was supposed to carry you through.

• 11:13Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, but you know, you know, Dad had his way of talking about things and using humor and using the example of his friends and family who made bad decisions.

• 11:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. Well, there, you know, there were wonderful examples of what not to do, you know? But there weren't a lot of, there, there weren't a lot of really guiding principles.

• 11:36Craig Robinson?

  No, no.

• 11:37Michelle Obama?

  Of what to do.

• 11:38Craig Robinson?

  And speaking of that, let's have our expert come in.

• 11:41Michelle Obama?

  Well, yeah, I guess we should, we should get some real help.

• 11:45Craig Robinson?

  Now, now, this, this is an introduction that I have to read because this is, this is, this is powerful here. Dr. Orna Guralnik is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst. She is on the faculty of NYU Postdoctoral Program in Psychoanalysis and writes and teaches on the intersection of politics, dissociation, and psychoanalysis. She is on the editorial board of Psychoanalytic Dialogues and Studies in Gender and Sexuality. That's a mouthful right there.

• 12:19Michelle Obama?

  But you did it.

• 12:20Craig Robinson?

  She is the therapist on the Showtime documentary series Couples Therapy.

• 12:25Michelle Obama?

  One of my favorite shows.

• 12:26Craig Robinson?

  One of my sister's favorite shows, now one of Kelly and I's favorite shows because this was one of, this was one of those shows that we just didn't watch because we still have kids at home and, but we went back and watched.

• 12:37Michelle Obama?

  Excellent.

• 12:38Craig Robinson?

  And now we are fans as well. And Dr. Orna, would you come join us, please?

• 12:44Michelle Obama?

  And we have Nico here, too.

• 12:53Craig Robinson?

  It's so great to meet you.

• 12:56Michelle Obama?

  Welcome, Nico.

• 13:02Michelle Obama?

  It's like, let's get a pro here. I know, Nico. It's like, now we're getting to work, what you're used to. Well, welcome.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  She did keep coming over when something intense was coming up.

• 13:15Michelle Obama?

  Can she feel it?

• 13:16Speaker 00

  She feels it, yeah.

• 13:17Michelle Obama?

  Wow.

• 13:18Craig Robinson?

  Really?

• 13:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:18Craig Robinson?

  See, I was paying attention to my sister. I didn't even notice.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, she kept coming over when something intense was coming up.

• 13:24Michelle Obama?

  It's like, she's doing her job. Welcome, welcome to our table, our conversation. My big brother and one of my favorite people in the world. I admire this woman deeply. I really do. I love the work that you do and the way that you do it, but, um, welcome. Thank you.

• 13:48Craig Robinson?

  I have so many questions.

• 13:51Michelle Obama?

  Let's go.

• 13:59Craig Robinson?

  This segment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a brand who believes that everyone should have the access and opportunity to own a home. What are some of the firsts that we were able to accomplish in our family?

• 14:12Michelle Obama?

  What were some of our firsts? Well, I was probably the first first lady in our family.

• 14:19Michelle Obama?

  You were the first person to get drafted by the NBA.

• 14:23Craig Robinson?

  Yes, I sure was, and the first to actually play professionally overseas.

• 14:28Michelle Obama?

  Right. We were the first in our family to graduate from Ivy League schools.

• 14:35Michelle Obama?

  You were the first person in our family to live abroad.

• 14:40Craig Robinson?

  Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one.

• 14:45Michelle Obama?

  We are the first people in our family to have our own amazing brother sister podcast.

• 14:52Craig Robinson?

  Yes.

• 14:53Michelle Obama?

  And that has been an amazing first.

• 14:56Craig Robinson?

  That's been a really fun first. That's been a really fun first. And it feels like it's a first that the whole family can celebrate. Because you know, everyone is giving us ideas and opinions.

• 15:09Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 15:10Craig Robinson?

  And it has been really fun spending time hanging out together. And you know, we, it feels like we haven't been together in a long time. And we've just been apart for about a couple of months, which was no time. That was nothing in the past.

• 15:24Michelle Obama?

  And the thing about being the first is that sometimes it can be a little scary. Like starting this podcast, even though we're having a lot of fun. Now, we've never done this before. And there was a little trepidation about how is it going to work? Are people gonna enjoy it? Are we gonna have enough to say a week after week?

• 15:43Craig Robinson?

  Can we get guests?

• 15:45Michelle Obama?

  Can we get guests? Will anybody come and talk to us? So the first come with a lot of fear, but a lot of excitement and a lot of reward. So we recommend being the first.

• 16:01Craig Robinson?

  And for a lot of folks, that first might be buying a home, something no one in their family has done before. Homeownership is more than just buying a house. It's about creating opportunities. That's where Progressive comes in. Through a $7 million commitment to housing initiatives in 2024 and the recent creation of a down payment assistant program called the up payment. Progressive is helping people attain their first homes, maintain them through life's challenges and build generational wealth. Homeownership isn't just a milestone. It can be your first step in changing your family's financial future.

• 16:43Craig Robinson?

  If you're ready to make your first move, visit progressive.com slash open the house to find helpful resources and educational tools for every step of the homeownership journey. Progressive Insurance is here to help you open the door.

• 17:06Craig Robinson?

  So I just, I'm trying to, I mean, first of all, I told my sister this when we started watching it, finding people to come on the show and be so open in front of cameras, I don't know if I could do that. Can you talk about that?

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Sure, yeah. You know, when we started doing the show, we all had a question of whether people could do this, whether you could really do therapy on camera. You know, the the basic idea of therapy is typically like full confidentiality. Like, I never talk about my patients with anyone. It's like, it's a very different way of framing therapy. So it was kind of a wild jump to try to do this. But you know, over time, what I realized is that, you know, in a way, when people come and talk to a therapist, they're always talking to more than just the therapist. They're talking to some kind of internal

• 18:07Speaker 00

  audience that they have, like a family member that never listened to them, or the world's, like, wait a minute, there's something that didn't happen right in my life, and I need the world to know this, and I need, I need to tell my story. So when they talk to a therapist, in a way, they're always talking to a certain kind of hidden camera anyhow. It's not that different.

• 18:28Craig Robinson?

  Wow.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  You know, they're trying to tell their story and get it right.

• 18:35Michelle Obama?

  What led you to couples' therapy? I mean, what's the advantage of working with a couple versus working with an individual? Or is there an advantage?

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, first of all, when people are in therapy, they, most of what they talk about is their relationships, right? And what you want to do in individual therapy is you want to get into like the very personal story, how a person sees their world, how they see the relationship. But you're always missing the other side, right? You're always missing, well... What's another perspective on this?

• 19:11Michelle Obama?

  People only know what they know about themselves.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:14Michelle Obama?

  And that's all they can share.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  Exactly. So I'm often curious, like, if I had the spouse in the room, what would they say? And if I had the mother in the room, what would she say? And that's what got me kind of interested in couples' work. So I actually recruited the person who's my advisor on the show, Virginia.

• 19:33Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yes.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  Years ago, I hired her and I said, "Teach me the art of couples' therapy."

• 19:39Michelle Obama?

  Oh, wow, wow.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  And just tried it out and it was amazing. It was just a really powerful way of working.

• 19:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I think you've done, taken huge steps to expose people to what therapy is and to demystify it. And, you know, I think that the way it's done, the quality of the production and the way you approach the work, because we've had, Barack and I, we've done, I've done individual therapy, we've done couples' therapy. There's just a way to, as I was saying in our earlier conversation, to, you know, bring our marriage down to reality for people.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:25Michelle Obama?

  You know, and to let people know that even in the best marriages, getting help, having periods where you need support, you need to think things through, is a normal part of making it through.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  And it's such, it's an amazing thing that you're doing by actually speaking about it. I was listening to your conversation earlier and like, just breaking through all these fantasies and illusions that people have about marriage and about relationships, trying to get like, real and open people up both to their own...

• 21:02Speaker 00

  Inhibitions and struggles and then to be able to talk about it with each other. I mean, it's like, it's incredible what you're doing.

• 21:09Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:10Speaker 00

  And from the place that you are.

• 21:12Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, it can be a little scary because you, you don't want to jinx your own relationship.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:17Michelle Obama?

  Or you don't want to, you know, feel like because you say a little bit that you have to say everything.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:23Michelle Obama?

  But I do think that we don't talk enough with young people.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 21:27Michelle Obama?

  About what marriage is, what building real relationships are. We spend way more time on the wedding.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:34Michelle Obama?

  And the dress picking.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:36Michelle Obama?

  And the, you know, the, the, the wish board and the, all of that. And I see that even now, even as therapy has become more of the norm in our society. I see too many young people who haven't really thought through their why.

• 21:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:51Michelle Obama?

  They haven't asked real questions. They're so busy rushing to the ceremony.

• 21:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:56Michelle Obama?

  And that's all we focus on is the day.

• 21:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:59Michelle Obama?

  And then they're not prepared for the next year or the next 50 years. Um, and that's one of the reasons why I, I like talking open, openly.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:09Michelle Obama?

  Because I think young people give up, they give up too soon.

• 22:12Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  They have.

• 22:13Craig Robinson?

  And Dr. Orna, why do you think that is? Is it, is it because we didn't have modeling with our parents? Or is there a fear of actually finding out what your partner thinks of you?

• 22:27Speaker 00

  Oh, there are many reasons why people don't talk about what's going on.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  There's so many fears of addressing. I mean, people love staying at the surface of things. They're afraid of themselves, of what they're going to find out in themselves. They're afraid of what their partner might say to them. They're afraid of the world, what the world will think. There are many ways that people just hide all the time from like their most personal truth and the other person's truth. And the way people are raised, and then we have the extra layer now of social media and like all the disnification that happens around that.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  That people don't know how to make contact with their true self.

• 23:14Michelle Obama?

  And we're not even trying. That's not like a personal goal. We don't, we're not, we're not raising, we're not raised or we're not raising our children to, to do that work. To even understand that that work is a part of

• 23:29Speaker 00

  Being human.

• 23:30Michelle Obama?

  Being human.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:31Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  But I think that's why the show worked so well and we were surprised by how successful it was. But I think that's what people really need. And they know it when they feel it, like when people come into therapy and they can suddenly like, oh, I'm allowed to think about this. I'm allowed to talk about this. I can talk to my partner about this. It's such a relief. It's such a, oh, this is what life is. Instead of this like defensive way that I've been living. People know it. When they, when they get it, they know they need it.

• 24:03Craig Robinson?

  Well, we typically have a question from a caller or a viewer. And I think now is a great time to get, get our question in and answer our questions. So Natalie.

• 24:17Speaker 03

  You got it.

• 24:20Speaker 03

  Hi, Michelle and Craig. I'm Rachel. I'm 40 years old and a mom of three. Lately, I've been feeling fairly bored in my marriage. It's like every day is kind of a repeat of the last. We wake up, do school drop off, work, run errands. And then it's the same weekend routine. Even if my husband and I managed to carve out time for a rare date night, it still feels like we're just going through the motions. Last week, for example, we went out to dinner, but it turned into a quick meal where we talked mostly about the kids and then listened to each other's work complaints. It feels like we're roommates, not romantic partners. Meanwhile, I find myself getting increasingly jealous of this close friend of mine,

• 25:05Speaker 03

  who has two kids and whose relationship seems pretty vibrant and fulfilling. She often shares stories about how attentive her husband is, and I don't mean just emotionally. I know I shouldn't, but I can't help comparing our lives, and I'm realizing it's starting to make me unhappy. I do love my husband, and I feel lucky for the life we've built together, but I am craving more depth and excitement in our relationship. I'm willing to put in the work, I just don't know exactly where to start or how to talk with him without him becoming defensive or scaring him. Do we book a big vacation together? Do we try and write romantic notes to each other? I know that sounds silly, but I'm open.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  What's the secret to kickstarting a romance with a husband of 14 years? Rachel.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  I think that's a great question.

• 25:56Craig Robinson?

  It really is. It really is. And there's so many different parts.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:00Craig Robinson?

  As the only husband at the table.

• 26:02Speaker 00

  What do you say? Yeah, really.

• 26:05Craig Robinson?

  I want to help Rachel be able to talk productively to her husband about her issues. How can we help Rachel talk a little bit more productively about this to the person that she should be feeling like she has her closest relationship with?

• 26:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, my God, there's so much in this question.

• 26:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  So much. First of all, I have to say that the question of boredom, boredom in my mind is, I mean, when patients talk to me about boredom, to me, it's like a big symptom of, first of all, a disconnect, a disconnect from some kind of deeper, more real layer of things. It's not, I mean, there's nothing to be bored about ever in life.

• 26:52Michelle Obama?

  Especially if you have a two and a three-year-old, or however old Rachel's kids were.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  Exactly. I mean, just think about like when you go to sleep at night and what our mind creates every night in terms of dreams. We are full of interesting, interesting experiences all the time. I mean, look outside at the, at nature. I mean, you can just stare at a flower and it's like, the world is fascinating.

• 27:16Michelle Obama?

  But we're not, we, we don't think like that, especially in this day and age. I mean, that's the first word out of a kid's mouth is, I'm bored. And just the way you put it, it's like, how could, how could you be bored?

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Something's off. There's nothing to be bored of. I mean, if you just, I mean, if you're a mother and you're watching your children, every moment that you look at them, it's like unbelievable what's happening.

• 27:40Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  And what's happening inside of you when you're with your children, all the different emotions, the fears, the, the memories that it brings up for you. I mean, there's nothing to be bored about, ever. So if you're bored, something is disconnected. So that's already something for me as a therapist to think about, work with.

• 28:00Michelle Obama?

  And is it something within Rachel?

• 28:03Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 28:04Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  So I start with what's going on with each person. Like, what are you disconnected from in yourself that, first of all, you're looking to your husband to fulfill before checking in with yourself? If you're bored and you're looking at your husband, that's already not exactly the right direction to be looking at. There's nothing to be bored. Let's start from that. If you're bored, something is disconnected. So, so we can deal with that aspect of things. Like, what are you, what's happening inside you that you're bored with? That you're, are you not giving yourself enough time to have an inner life? Are you running, running, running? And I mean, having three kids and she's 40?

• 28:50Speaker 00

  So the kids are young. I mean, it's gonna be, this is a phase of life where this is not like fun and games. I mean, this is intense. Like, you're at the level of like, are you getting any sleep? Is there money around? Like, are you, you're at the level of the body. It's, it's very hard to carve out space to have an inner life during that period. So what are you expecting? I mean, this is a period where you're giving out a lot.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  How are you dealing with that?

• 29:23Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Are you giving yourself the space to really have an experience when you're with your kid? Do you have the moment to actually notice the wonder that's in front of you? The wonder that's inside of you? Like, can you take 10 minutes in the morning before everyone wakes up? And just sit with yourself? Jot down a few thoughts, a few feelings? Even meditate for a few minutes? Just create an inner space? So that you can notice the wonder around you and inside you? Not only the wonder, the intense anxieties, everything? Like, have an inner life? Before you're turning to your marriage and your husband to kind of supply you with something?

• 30:02Michelle Obama?

  And, and don't mothers in particular feel guilty about doing? Yeah, about everything, let alone taking the time out?

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:12Michelle Obama?

  To focus on an inner life?

• 30:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:15Michelle Obama?

  How do you even help? Especially a, a, a new mother?

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:20Michelle Obama?

  Dealing with all kinds of guilt? To even think differently?

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:24Michelle Obama?

  About that investment in self?

• 30:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's been quite a lot of recent more feminist literature that's trying to help women think through that? Think through the, the intense experiences a woman is going through as a, as a mother and a young mother? There's so much there. And there's so much, I mean, talking earlier about like all these like Disney ideas?

• 30:46Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  So many ways in which mothers are prevented from really noticing what they're going through? Because you're supposed to be this, that, and the other. You're supposed to be perfect in this way and perfect in that way? And anyway, all these different ways contradict each other? So there's no way to be perfect? And then you got your mother over your shoulder? So, there's, there's a lot out there now in terms of feminist writing? That helps women think through their experience and honor the complexity of their experience as mothers? All of this is like inner work before you even turn to your marriage? But then let's talk about?

• 31:26Michelle Obama?

  The marriage.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  The marriage. Similar to like the way you can't? You know, you can't show up for your kid and say, okay, I have 10 minutes now? I'm gonna be a perfect mother now for 10 minutes. Are you ready for me?

• 31:38Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 00

  And the kid's like, who are you?

• 31:40Michelle Obama?

  And scene.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right. So similarly for a marriage, I mean, you have to to connect between two people. The connection between two people requires a certain amount of

• 31:56Speaker 00

  attention or space, a certain kind of space. You can't just show up for dinner and just like, okay, we have an hour. Let's have a really meaningful experience and then we're back home. So what does that mean? First of all, how do people spend their time? I mean, it's really interesting when you do like a detailed analysis. I do it with myself every day and fail. But when you do a detailed analysis of how you're spending your time, a lot of it is spent on basically crap, right? For me, like my vice is the news. But for other people, it might be, I don't know, doom scrolling through Instagram or

• 32:35Michelle Obama?

  Real Housewives.

• 32:37Speaker 00

  Shopping, bad TV.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  OCD, like cleaning, cleaning just to empty your mind.

• 32:45Michelle Obama?

  Oh, and our endless phones.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  Endless phones. So how are you spending your time? Are you arranging your life in a way that meaning can emerge? Or are you basically cutting yourself off from anything that could be meaningful? And I mean, that's the the problem we're all stuck in nowadays, especially with these like phones.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  And then between, so the couple needs to understand how they're spending their time. What, how are they creating conditions where they can have an experience with each other?

• 33:20Michelle Obama?

  And by experience, because that sounds like that that could sound overwhelming because you say experience and does that mean we have to go skydiving? And does it have to look a certain way? Because again, in the ideal world, you're walking hand in hand through some magical date. You know, like date nights become a thing, right? So the experience feels like it needs to be big. And especially as women, we think that attention has to look like flowers and Prince Charming coming in. But what what counts as an experience?

• 33:51Speaker 00

  An experience.

• 34:01Craig Robinson?

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• 34:46Craig Robinson?

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• 35:27Craig Robinson?

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• 37:35Craig Robinson?

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• 40:11Speaker 00

  What counts as an experience is when each of you is willing to come a little bit to your edge, to the thing that matters to you really, and speak from there.

• 40:25Speaker 00

  Listen to each other from there. Be curious.

• 40:27Michelle Obama?

  Say that again. That was deep. All right.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  It's for each of you to bring yourself to the edge of your experience, to the thing that really matters to you, the place where you tremble a little bit, where you're a little not sure about what your mind is going to bring, how you feel about things. The thing that really matters to you, the place where you tremble.

• 40:50Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  And to be able to be there with each other. And ask your partner, like, it could be about anything. Like, you could talk about, I don't know. I mean, I think she talked about like, the boredom of talking about work every day. Right. You could talk to someone about, or talk about the kids. But everything you talk about, you can get to your edge into that thing that really, again, made you tremble. Like, and speak from there and listen from there. Ask your partner, like, okay, so that thing happened with your boss. But what did you really think? Or what were you really feeling in that moment? And what fears and hopes did it bring up for you in that moment? And what did it remind you of from when you were,

• 41:36Speaker 00

  I don't know, 12? What did your dad do in that situation? There's so many places you can go with everything.

• 41:44Michelle Obama?

  I mean, Barack and I are even, we're in these conversations about, what are the experiences that we have with each other?

• 41:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:53Michelle Obama?

  You know, that built connection between us, right? Because we are very different people with very different habits, very different needs. And we're constantly, throughout our marriage, trying to bridge that gap. So this is fascinating to me. But a lot of people talk in terms of love language, because all of this experience, being at the edge, sharing this stuff, that sounds like, well, your love language is talk, you know? And if talk isn't his love language, like, he doesn't want to go to the edge of anything, you know, because he just wants you to hold him. That's the experience he wants. Or he wants you to just leave him alone.

• 42:35Michelle Obama?

  That's the experience he wants with his wife.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  I'd like to know.

• 42:37Craig Robinson?

  His love language is solitude.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  Right. That's interesting, too. That could be interesting, too. You can ask plenty about that. But, but you know what? It's true that I rely a lot on language. But you can be at the edge with another person without words.

• 42:54Michelle Obama?

  How?

• 42:54Speaker 00

  You, it's, it's being present. It's feeling each other. There's so many ways that people communicate. That they send, I mean, so much of what transpires between people is actually beyond language.

• 43:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, we're sitting here together. There's body language. There's facial expression. There's the smell and sound of things. There's, I mean, that's why Zoom, for example, is so reduced in terms of like a therapy encounter.

• 43:22Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  There, there are many ways that we can be on the edge of things with each other that are not only in words. It helps when there's a connection between the experience of the body and the words. When, when it all kind of works together. But you can listen to music together and like have like a really intense experience with no words. You can, I don't know, watch an amazing movie together and you're having a profound experience. It's not only words.

• 43:50Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  It's, it's about bringing yourself to a place of vulnerability. Where you don't know, you don't know what your partner's gonna say, what they're gonna do, and you don't know what's gonna come out from within you. And you're touching each other in one way or another by being on that edge. And of course, it could be physically, sexually. There's many ways to be.

• 44:12Michelle Obama?

  Why are we so scared of that naturally? Is it just straight up scary?

• 44:16Speaker 00

  It is scary.

• 44:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  It is. I mean, when two people are in, are in the presence of each other in some naked form.

• 44:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  I don't only mean naked body, but naked mentally. It is scary.

• 44:30Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 44:30Speaker 00

  There's a lot of risk, a lot of vulnerability.

• 44:34Craig Robinson?

  And I, I, I'll, I'll jump in here. You know, from the time young men are developing, we have been the ones who had to ask girls to dance. And you know what we're afraid of?

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Rejection. Yeah, so scary.

• 44:52Craig Robinson?

  So then you just keep adding that on until you get to be 60 years old and you're still afraid of rejection. Cause I'm listening to you. Dr. Ornate, and it's just fantastic. And Kelly and I, my wife, we still have young kids. So we have a 14 year old and a 12 year old. But we don't just talk about the kids. We talk about a lot of different things. And I'm now I'm trying to see how can I get my, when am I on the edge? And

• 45:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe you're not on the edge.

• 45:22Craig Robinson?

  And it's not superficial because I've never, I don't feel like, oh, I'm too scared to bring up anything. You know, I'm not scared to bring up anything.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  Although you said, you started by talking about rejection.

• 45:32Craig Robinson?

  Right, so I'm trying to, I'm trying to see how I'm

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, I want to break them down, break them down.

• 45:37Craig Robinson?

  From being rejected. Stay out of this. From being, from being rejected, am I not getting to the, to the meat of the matter?

• 45:47Speaker 00

  You can, I'm, I promise you, you can always push yourself further.

• 45:50Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. It's, you know, you're, you're like an athlete. You can always go and do more. And maybe we're just right at the surface here.

• 45:59Michelle Obama?

  Well, because the thing about, because you're still in kid mode.

• 46:02Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 46:02Michelle Obama?

  Barack and I are empty nesters, right? So the funny thing is, it's like we, now we don't have the kids. I mean, we always have the kids to talk about, right?

• 46:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:14Michelle Obama?

  But not on a day to day basis. They live in other, another state, another city, they're living their lives. And we've noticed how much of our time we've spent talking about them, right?

• 46:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:27Michelle Obama?

  So now that we're empty nesters, it's like, well, what are we going to talk about? So we're together all day and we do this thing where it's like, I'll see him and it's like, what you been doing? It's like, oh, don't tell me until dinner because we're, we gotta have something to talk about at dinner. So if all throughout the course of the day, I'm getting caught up on his stuff, then it's like we're sitting staring at each other.

• 46:52Craig Robinson?

  You should always have something to talk about.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  First of all, that's not true. That's not true.

• 46:57Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  That's not true.

• 46:58Michelle Obama?

  It's not true. You're wrong, wrong again.

• 47:00Craig Robinson?

  I'm just getting her back, her butt into my discussion.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  No, there's, first of all, there's

• 47:07Speaker 00

  There's, I mean, this is a little radical what I'm saying, but there's a way to be next to another person, even in silence, that can be very alive. Right? Like, you know, people sit and meditate next to each other. There's a way that you could be together that is very alive. To me, it's a question of like, again, are you sitting there from, in a place that you know what matters to you in that moment? And are you curious about your partner's edge? Or where they're at? Like, what are you thinking about? You know, a penny for your thoughts. Like, what are you thinking about?

• 47:44Michelle Obama?

  And then do they, do you really go there?

• 47:46Speaker 00

  And then?

• 47:47Michelle Obama?

  Do you really say? Because how many times do you, somebody asks, what are you thinking about? And you're like, oh, let me make up a thing. Because I don't want to actually tell you what I was thinking about. Which was like, the way you're chewing makes me want to smack you upside the head.

• 48:02Craig Robinson?

  See, that's why guys don't want to have that.

• 48:04Michelle Obama?

  Would that be an edge?

• 48:05Speaker 00

  That would be an edge. And that would be really interesting. You could like, open something up there in a big way.

• 48:10Michelle Obama?

  Why does your chewing annoy me so much? Let's discuss.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:14Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I don't know if I'd bring that up. But that's an edge. That's an example of an edge.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  That's an example of an edge. And it actually, symbolically, it's a great example because chewing is, hearing another person chewing is you're hearing the essence of who they are. Their otherness, their bodily functions.

• 48:35Michelle Obama?

  It is like that.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  It's like...

• 48:37Craig Robinson?

  It is not like that at all.

• 48:39Michelle Obama?

  No, no.

• 48:41Speaker 00

  Because the girls and I talk about...

• 48:43Michelle Obama?

  It's a thing, the chewing. I didn't realize that. That's good to know. Because the girls and I are very irritated with the way Barack chews.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Well, that's, chewing is the essence. Like, you hear the otherness of a person, right? You hear they have a body, they have saliva, they're like, you, ah! It's like, ah, another person!

• 49:05Michelle Obama?

  Should we, is that a statement of something deeper?

• 49:09Craig Robinson?

  And if it doesn't annoy you, is that a statement of something deeper?

• 49:14Speaker 00

  No.

• 49:16Craig Robinson?

  That's not fair.

• 49:19Michelle Obama?

  Wrong again, Craig Robinson.

• 49:20Craig Robinson?

  That's not fair.

• 49:21Speaker 00

  Sorry.

• 49:22Michelle Obama?

  You got one more strike and then you'll have to leave the table.

• 49:25Craig Robinson?

  You guys could be sitting here crunching on cereal and it wouldn't bother me.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  I'm sure we can find other ways in which we can dig in there.

• 49:33Michelle Obama?

  But we digress, though. But it's fascinating that that's even that edginess.

• 49:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I like this, you know, that poet Keats that has the idea of like negative capability, like emptying yourself in a way and really opening yourself up to be curious to another person. Not listening so that you can talk, but listening so you can really hear another person, like what matters to them. Well, that's endless.

• 50:01Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and that's an interesting thing. I don't want to genderize this, right? And then there are a lot of people who are not curious. They're not, you know, open. They're, they have a way of dialogue that is, I'm gonna relay information to you and then I'm gonna move on, or I'm gonna solve a problem, or I'm gonna, there isn't a curiosity. We aren't taught that. And I wonder whether that's some of what Rachel might be experiencing or might want to consider in her marriage.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  But as a, yes, I think many people are not taught to look for that in themselves and speak in that way to other people. But you can cultivate that.

• 50:49Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 00

  I mean, that's what I do as an analyst. I sit next to people and I turn my curiosity towards them and I create an environment that invites them to look inside and talk to me.

• 51:04Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  And you can do that. You can do that with your husband, even if he doesn't know how to talk. There was, in the last series that we did, there was this wonderful Chinese-American man, Rex.

• 51:17Michelle Obama?

  Oh, I remember him.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  Do you remember Rex?

• 51:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  I don't think, growing up, I don't think anyone ever asked him a question.

• 51:25Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  Ever.

• 51:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  And he had no clue what was going on inside him, no clue. And their conversations in the beginning were like dead ends. But you just sit there for a few minutes and ask him a question. And suddenly, the whole world would open up. And he'd be shocked by what's coming out of his mouth. Just give the person a chance. Ask, ask, invite.

• 51:53Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:55Craig Robinson?

  Okay, I'm just jotting down some notes.

• 51:57Michelle Obama?

  And to Rachel's point of looking externally and the comparing. I mean, I know we haven't begun to scratch the surface of so many other things, but I know she's in that comparative mode, which so many of us are in this day and age.

• 52:20Speaker 00

  Instagram, yeah, compare and despair. I think if you want to look at other people for something useful, rather than compare and despair, you can look at other people and get inspired, just like you were saying earlier. Talk to people in order to learn something. If you have friends, a couple, who are doing something well, you can learn from them. You can ask them about it and learn from them. If you're just looking at other people in order to feel bad about yourself or to generate envy, it's a complete waste of time, really. Really, like an addiction to be gotten rid of.

• 53:03Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 53:03Craig Robinson?

  It seems, and maybe it's just technology, that I don't remember folks trying to be like.

• 53:14Craig Robinson?

  The Joneses as much as I do today.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  I agree. I agree. There's some, I mean, there's something about this, the younger generations. They live a very different life than ours. You know, I don't want to be like one of those like older people that's like, oh, the younger generations. They got it all wrong.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  It's different, the way they're living. Definitely, the world on social media calls on people to perform their lives, compare more than we did.

• 53:50Craig Robinson?

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• 54:30Craig Robinson?

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• 54:59Craig Robinson?

  There's a, there's a saying in basketball that my assistant coaches used to always say to me.

• 55:07Craig Robinson?

  You never know what's going on in the other guy's huddle.

• 55:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:11Craig Robinson?

  And whenever I was worried about the other team doing this or having better players than this, he's like, stop worrying about the other guy's huddle. They got, they're yelling at each other over there. We can win this game. It's the same thing in relationships.

• 55:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:25Craig Robinson?

  But I, you know, I want to turn back to, Rachel talked about, is there something I can do to kickstart our relationship? And that sounds like, that could be good or bad, but is there a switch? Is there something that she can do? Is there something you can tell her that she can do while she's working on this other stuff?

• 55:49Speaker 00

  You know, I'm a psychoanalyst, so I don't, I don't believe in like, quick fixes and tricks.

• 55:58Michelle Obama?

  Seven steps to feeling more connected.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  I know. I don't have them.

• 56:03Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  But I think what we're talking about is like this inner orientation, both towards like, every minute you can bring yourself to a place where you're taking more risks. And you can ask your partner to do that. I actually liked what she said about like, writing notes, writing notes to each other. Doesn't have to be love notes, but it, sometimes when people write, they have to go deeper inside themselves to generate something. So maybe communicating through writing is a way of, in a way, announcing to each other, we're trying to speak from a more interesting place to each other. That could be interesting.

• 56:49Speaker 00

  Read poetry. Read poetry to each other. Poetry is like a very direct line to like, when, when I feel like I'm losing something in myself, I, there are certain poets that I turn to and I pull up and gets me right there. Listen to music. I mean, things that, that, that get you there, that get you to a place where you're alive. I wanted to ask you guys earlier, like, what, what makes you feel alive? What makes you feel like you're present?

• 57:21Michelle Obama?

  In the life I live, which is so abnormal now.

• 57:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:26Michelle Obama?

  It's really, it's like being outside.

• 57:30Michelle Obama?

  You know, I mean, we've, I say this a lot. Something that comes with fame that people don't, that they don't appreciate, they're not cautious of, is the loss of anonymity. Yeah. Like, it's hard for Barack and I to just be in the world unobserved. Yeah. And as a couple, so much of your interaction just happens because you two are experiencing the world together, sitting in a park. Yeah. And watching life go by, you know, stopping at a cafe and getting a cup of coffee. And then the conversation turns to the conversation next to you, right? We're always the conversation next to the people we're sitting, right?

• 58:17Michelle Obama?

  So you find yourself not looking out at the world. Yeah. So for me, aliveness these days comes from those kind of experiences. It's just taking a walk, you know? Breathing fresh air, hearing the sound of the ocean and being completely unnoticed and just being able to experience the world in that way, which is, I would have never thought that that would be.

• 58:43Craig Robinson?

  And conversely, that's what we have fun doing. Like, we can go for a walk and we can experience autumn and the trees turning. And our discussions range from the kids to work, to family, to politics. And that's how we generate our joy, is doing family things.

• 59:04Speaker 00

  That reminds me of something else with Rachel and the focus on the husband. And you mentioned it earlier, that your spouse can't be everything. I mean, especially at that phase of life.

• 59:18Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 59:18Speaker 00

  You need, you need friends, you need family, you need, you need to kind of... You need more people in your life to carry the intense load of what it means to raise young children.

• 59:30Michelle Obama?

  And I've said this before, we now have this crazy notion that we're supposed to be this little unit of a family, the parents and children toughening it out together, you know, in some kind of isolation, when in fact, throughout humanity, that's not how families were structured.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 59:53Michelle Obama?

  There wasn't extended family, there was always a big community, there were always others, cousins, aunts, uncles, neighbors, friends.

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  Totally agree.

• 1:00:02Michelle Obama?

  And some of what Rachel might be experiencing is what typically happens in young families, they're trying to do it all alone, all by themselves.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:11Michelle Obama?

  And that's a piece of advice that I give when I'm out and about. What got me through as a young mother was, you know, there came a point in that mother, the mother-father relationship, when I felt like my husband had all this free time, that he was going to the gym and, you know, he was still prioritizing his life and I was just stewing about it.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:36Michelle Obama?

  And I realized, I can go to the gym too.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:00:39Michelle Obama?

  Now, but I have to organize it, make it happen. That was sort of the kickstart to me, to stop looking to him for what I needed.

• 1:00:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:48Michelle Obama?

  And once I started doing that, I gave my self-permission to do other things, like go out with my girlfriends, or have my friends over, or build a strong community of other mothers. It made me feel more alive.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 1:01:05Michelle Obama?

  Less alone, less bored.

• 1:01:06Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 1:01:07Michelle Obama?

  But it was almost like I had to give myself permission, because you were just, you thought that being a parent meant you spent every waking moment with, alone with your child.

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Michelle Obama?

  By yourself.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20Michelle Obama?

  And if Rachel's trying to follow that, she's not bored, she's probably mad.

• 1:01:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, right, right.

• 1:01:27Michelle Obama?

  She's probably very angry.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. That is, it's, what you're describing is a very common phase that women go through. And men are somehow freer from that.

• 1:01:42Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  They somehow know better how to take care of themselves.

• 1:01:46Michelle Obama?

  Well, let's start there.

• 1:01:49Michelle Obama?

  That's what they focus on, taking care of themselves.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  Which is important.

• 1:01:52Michelle Obama?

  It is good.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  It's important.

• 1:01:54Michelle Obama?

  You know, we criticize it. I think.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  We're envious of it.

• 1:01:57Michelle Obama?

  Yes, we're envious of it. We should learn to emulate it. The sort of sheer laser focus on one's self.

• 1:02:06Craig Robinson?

  Well, this is a great time to give Rachel two or three tidbits to walk away with. If you had, if you had two or three things that we could give Rachel that she could come away with from this episode, what would it be?

• 1:02:22Speaker 00

  Okay, so I'm actually gonna start with what you said, Michelle, which is like, how about you carve out some space for yourself where you make sure you're alive, you're not bored. Could be like 30 minutes a day. And figure out what, what brings you there? What brings you to a place where you feel alive and content in yourself before? You're talking to your husband, before you're thinking about your husband. Number one. Number two, when you're spending time with your husband, how about you get, you try to bring yourself to a place where you're really present and really curious, like ask questions.

• 1:03:07Craig Robinson?

  Oh, that's good.

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  Ask questions that will surprise you.

• 1:03:11Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. I love that. You know, if I could redo a lot of things in my early motherhood time in my marriage, it would be to communicate my feelings to a husband that was actually willing to listen. But you have this fear of like, well, if I'm complaining, if I'm not doing it all, then maybe I'm failing, maybe I look weak. Maybe I don't look like I can handle it. And that's all you want to be as a mother, is somebody who. It appears to be handling it all.

• 1:03:41Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:03:41Michelle Obama?

  So you don't want to share those, you know, vulnerable moments, those moments of doubt, those moments of loneliness, because you might be accused of not being a good mother.

• 1:03:53Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:03:53Craig Robinson?

  And I would add, as a husband and a father, if you were to open up and say to me, I'm worried that I'm failing, or I'm worried that I'm not doing it right, I would, I would, I don't have any empirical data, but most husbands would be sympathetic and be helpful.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:13Craig Robinson?

  But the reason why I think you don't do it is because you're worried about him being negative. And it's, boy, I'd like to hope that it's unlikely.

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Michelle Obama?

  Well, then we can just tell Rachel to have her husband listen to this episode. Rachel's husband.

• 1:04:29Craig Robinson?

  And it gets back to the husband, Rachel.

• 1:04:31Michelle Obama?

  Rachel's husband, the message from, from us to you, listen, be curious, be on your edge. And, you know, make sure she gets to the gym and the spa, dude.

• 1:04:44Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:45Michelle Obama?

  Focus on her.

• 1:04:46Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Michelle Obama?

  If you're not doing that, Rachel's husband.

• 1:04:49Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 1:04:50Michelle Obama?

  You think?

• 1:04:51Craig Robinson?

  Yeah. And, and, and Rachel's husband should know that his wife's feeling bored, but she's gonna work on it.

• 1:04:58Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:59Craig Robinson?

  And if you're feeling bored, you have to work on it.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:05:03Michelle Obama?

  And go to counseling.

• 1:05:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's another thing you can do.

• 1:05:07Michelle Obama?

  You know, I think that that's also a piece of it.

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  Carve out that time.

• 1:05:11Michelle Obama?

  Right, it's, it's okay. I think, you know, you may find that in 10 years, you may need another checkup. And I'm finding that, because we're, you know, we're, I'm doing therapy now, because I'm 60, and at the end, I'm an empty nester.

• 1:05:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Michelle Obama?

  I'm at a different phase in my life. I'm trying to figure out, who am I now? You know, now that I can make all, all the choices that I make are mine. And now, how do I give myself permission? How do I deal with the new level of boredom and the newness? So it never ends, you know?

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  Never ends.

• 1:05:44Michelle Obama?

  You're always figuring out yourself, yourself in relation. Relationships, and that's what therapy is for. It's to help you see parts of yourself that you can't see on your own. You know, you'd never try to fix the back of your hair without a mirror.

• 1:06:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:06:01Michelle Obama?

  You know, you can't see behind your back. And wonderful therapy, but you also have to find a good one like Orna. And they're out there. And if you can't find Orna, watch Couples Therapy. Because the beauty of that show is that you, sometimes you, often you see yourself in the couples that you've selected.

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Michelle Obama?

  And then you get Orna's therapy.

• 1:06:29Michelle Obama?

  I highly recommend it. It is truly one of my favorite shows. It really makes me think deeply about myself and about my relationship. And it could be a good kickstart to couples out there who don't know what Couples Therapy is. But, you know, can gain some insights just from watching those amazingly brave people share their stories with all of us.

• 1:06:54Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:06:55Michelle Obama?

  Thank you for being here.

• 1:06:56Craig Robinson?

  This has been terrific.

• 1:06:58Michelle Obama?

  Thanks so much, Orna.

• 1:06:59Craig Robinson?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:07:00Speaker 00

  Thank you very much.

• 1:07:22Craig Robinson?

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