‘East of Eden’ E1-4, ‘Slow Horses’ S6E4, and ‘The Altruists’ Trailer

Chris and Andy talk about the Paramount-Warner Bros. merger officially closing and what’s next for the two iconic studios that are now under the Skydance umbrella (3:50). Then they react to the trailer for ‘The Altruists,’ a Netflix limited series detailing the rise and fall of FTX, starring Julia Garner (16:54). Along the way, they discuss how an episode sequencing decision changed the ‘Lanterns’ story (24:09). Later, they break down the first four episodes of ‘East of Eden’ (33:17) and ‘Slow Horses’ Season 6, Episode 4 (01:02:10). Finally, The Watch: After Dark (01:11:14). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 1:05Speaker 03

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 1:11Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan and I am an editor at thewinger.com. And joining me in the studio, he now knows 100% more about brothels. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:24Andy Greenwald?

  It's not the brothel itself, because I think I, I think I wasn't wrong.

• 1:27Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:28Andy Greenwald?

  About the basic ins and outs of a brothel.

• 1:30Chris Ryan?

  Like in terms of their, their pickling and canning.

• 1:32Andy Greenwald?

  No, just the financial planning required, dude.

• 1:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, sure. We're talking about East of Eden today. First four episodes of Zoe Kazan's adaptation, John Steinbeck's American classic. And then we're also going to talk some slow horses. It's so great to see you in the flesh.

• 1:48Andy Greenwald?

  You thought you got rid of me.

• 1:49Chris Ryan?

  Apparently your, your new favorite beverage or your old favorite beverage that you never alerted me to. I, this is a thing that happens with people who have been.

• 1:56Andy Greenwald?

  Come on, we're in person now, we can talk.

• 1:57Chris Ryan?

  Friends for a long time, is that sometimes old friends try and pull a fast one. And nobody's comfortable with just being like, there's a new drink I've been trying and I really like it. Everything's always got to be like, I've always known about this. This has always been the best thing. You just don't know me enough. And I've never seen you get.

• 2:16Andy Greenwald?

  You've never heard of this.

• 2:17Chris Ryan?

  What is it?

• 2:17Andy Greenwald?

  This isn't the Pepsi challenge. So about a year ago, I started enjoying a beverage that was new to me. I'm not Columbus-ing this. I'm sure that, that the Italians and the snobs, possibly redundant, have always been aware that the combination of espresso and tonic water is delightful and refreshing.

• 2:35Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 2:36Andy Greenwald?

  It has now become more available in coffee shops.

• 2:39Chris Ryan?

  They're usually separate though, right? It's like you do an espresso shot.

• 2:40Andy Greenwald?

  That's usually soda water.

• 2:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43Andy Greenwald?

  Next to it.

• 2:43Chris Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 2:44Andy Greenwald?

  So this morning, because you know, I'm on East Coast time and have been Zooming since before the sun came up, I was like, I'm gonna treat myself this morning to our local barista specialty. And I walked in there and they have an espresso tonic on the menu and I got one. Now, I feel.

• 3:01Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 3:01Andy Greenwald?

  This is good. I'm, you know, this is, I'm gonna close my computer early. This is good.

• 3:06Chris Ryan?

  I'll close my computer.

• 3:06Andy Greenwald?

  That I'm back in town.

• 3:07Chris Ryan?

  You think you can close your, I'm gonna put mine away.

• 3:09Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, go ahead. Here, why don't you take mine?

• 3:12Chris Ryan?

  You take mine.

• 3:13Andy Greenwald?

  What's the difference? The same 16 tabs open to NBC Sports Philadelphia.

• 3:20Andy Greenwald?

  My point is, I generally operate from a perspective of, I'm too available to you and I tell you too much. So in between the 18.

• 3:29Chris Ryan?

  That's true.

• 3:30Andy Greenwald?

  It is true.

• 3:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you do tell me a lot.

• 3:32Andy Greenwald?

  Which, which color is more dominant in our chat window? Whichever one is mine. You know what I mean? Like you say, oh, that's interesting. What do you think about that? 19 texts later, they usually end with IDK anyway. And then you're just coming out of a screening and you and Sean are like, you're like, Sean, sorry, let me, let me tap out of this steak dinner for a second and look at this. So at no point in the last year was I like, Chris might not know my coffee order has changed in the daytime.

• 4:00Chris Ryan?

  I just, I feel like I've seen you drink a lot of coffee. I've never seen, I've never seen you drink that.

• 4:04Andy Greenwald?

  The other reason is because our, our wonderful benefactors here at the International Spotify Corporation provide us with some free coffee beverages. And so, you know, eagle-eyed viewers of the pod have seen me have an iced coffee from them that I don't drink.

• 4:21Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 4:22Andy Greenwald?

  Today's different.

• 4:23Chris Ryan?

  You're not gonna drink that.

• 4:24Andy Greenwald?

  I'm gonna drink this and it's gonna affect the content of the show.

• 4:28Chris Ryan?

  I have so many things I want to ask you about today.

• 4:31Andy Greenwald?

  How many are coffee-based?

• 4:32Chris Ryan?

  No, there's a couple of new things from the, the world of popular culture.

• 4:36Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 4:36Chris Ryan?

  I also wanted to talk to you about, um, watching your life pass before your eyes through the careers of offensive linemen, but.

• 4:45Andy Greenwald?

  That might be after dark.

• 4:46Chris Ryan?

  And that's not about the Manhunter.

• 4:48Andy Greenwald?

  Are you sure?

• 4:49Chris Ryan?

  In lanterns, yeah. Let's start here.

• 4:51Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 4:52Chris Ryan?

  Which is, I was curious whether or not any of the Paramount stuff from the last couple of days, the Skydance stuff, I should say.

• 4:59Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 5:00Chris Ryan?

  Because it is a Skydance corporation that encompasses now two great legacy studios.

• 5:04Andy Greenwald?

  It does.

• 5:05Chris Ryan?

  If any of it was like jumping out at you of like the massive amounts of debt that they have to service.

• 5:12Andy Greenwald?

  So it's apparently.

• 5:13Chris Ryan?

  The fact that Larry Ellison is selling his North Palm Beach estate for $160 million.

• 5:20Andy Greenwald?

  It's peanuts.

• 5:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:21Andy Greenwald?

  So am I right about my numbers here? That this, they, this is a newly formed company built on the back of $80 billion of debt?

• 5:28Chris Ryan?

  I, let's not get too deep into the numbers because we're gonna get them wrong, but it is a tremendous amount of debt servicing that they have to do. And like, they essentially have promised $6 billion in, I guess, savings in terms of.

• 5:43Andy Greenwald?

  Redundancies?

• 5:44Chris Ryan?

  I think, but the way that they're kind of approaching it is like efficiencies. So they're gonna, you know, whether that's the tech stack that they're talking about, ways in which they're gonna maximize the real estate holdings of the two companies. But the thing that jumped out at me was, you know, when Casey Boyes had given his statement or made a statement after Cindy Holland or right before Cindy Holland left.

• 6:08Andy Greenwald?

  But when it's clear that he, when it's clear he was going to be taking over the direct to consumer.

• 6:11Chris Ryan?

  He kind of pointed us in the direction of, imagine these two services being bundled, not merging. And then, uh, in his town hall or his address to the troops, David Ellison suggested that there will be a, a mega, mega streaming service on the horizon that will bring together the two, the two great families of, of all those Warner brothers and all those.

• 6:37Andy Greenwald?

  Ellison siblings?

• 6:39Chris Ryan?

  All those guys up on the mountain of Paramount. So yeah, like in the near distant future, we'll see some sort of HBO Paramount. I don't, or, or Skydance Plus, I guess is what they could call it, you know?

• 6:51Andy Greenwald?

  And then you get all of it.

• 6:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. For like $60 a month? I don't know.

• 6:55Andy Greenwald?

  I mean.

• 6:56Chris Ryan?

  What's the, what's, what's a number for that?

• 6:58Andy Greenwald?

  I know financial analysts, but when, I assume most stories of companies being bought on the back of debt and then promising it's all gonna work out because of efficiency, that usually works, right?

• 7:13Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean, everybody has been talking about how like this is just doesn't have. Now, if anybody knows how to survive it, and if any company has navigated that.

• 7:23Andy Greenwald?

  It's Casey?

• 7:24Chris Ryan?

  It's HBO.

• 7:24Andy Greenwald?

  Well, right, yeah. So I, I am.

• 7:26Chris Ryan?

  And some of those Warner Brothers properties of it's just been like between Time Warner and everybody else who's bought them over the years.

• 7:33Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, and, and the inverse of that is if there's ever been a major media corporation that has mismanaged its brands and assets, it was the artist formerly known as Viacom, which let MTV and Comedy Central, among others, just wither and die and into nothingness. Now, that's pre-Ellison, but that is the legacy of, I saw a graphic being like, now all of these brands are combined into one friendly family. And I was like, some of these are just ghost kitchens, man. Like they, they don't even exist anymore.

• 8:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:04Andy Greenwald?

  But.

• 8:04Chris Ryan?

  One night it's a Chinese restaurant, the next night it's freedom.

• 8:07Andy Greenwald?

  In terms of like what I'm looking at next, our pearl clutching about the fate of our beautiful HBO, I'm not worried about anymore. Casey has solidified his position. HBO has survived worse. It could, it may survive even worse. I don't know. But that is not a this year, next year, three years from now worry. I think the bigger worry is, um, job losses and which is going to be devastating, I think, in, in this town. And that does have like downstream effects. But I'm not entirely sure how they get to 30 theatrical releases a year if they start axing people by the thousands. I don't really see how that works out either, but.

• 8:49Andy Greenwald?

  I would say the most interesting thing to emerge this week to me was that the first thing that they did when they took over midweek, I mean, this is only still like 48 hours old in terms of being official, the first thing they did was they just dragged Digger's corpse out and just kicked it a few more times, that the very first thing that like came out from the new Skydance regime was, yo, actually, this is the biggest bomb in history, and they were cooking the books.

• 9:15Chris Ryan?

  I thought that was an interesting story to leak out. So what Andy's referring to is a story that like, kind of has gone around on Hollywood sites where the Paramount or the Skydance folks looked at the ledger.

• 9:28Andy Greenwald?

  As soon as they got it, the ledger came into their hands, like the Darkhold.

• 9:32Chris Ryan?

  Somehow Digger has lost them $250 million.

• 9:35Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that, look, there's always funny math, right? But that Warner Brothers was saying, no, no, this movie, you know, production was only X amount, and we only spent Y amount on marketing. So we are losing money, but it's manageable. It was worth the risk. And Paramount came in and said, actually, they spent $200 million just to make the thing, and then another hundred to market it, and so it will lose exponentially more. And, you know, it's just, I guess that's how these things work. Like, all studios do this. All studios blatantly lie about how much they're spending or how much they're losing. They all cook their books to relatively acceptable degrees. I guess it's probably also, you

• 10:19Andy Greenwald?

  know, it is the multi-hundred million dollar equivalent of a classic Brian Curtis, Now They Tell Us notebook dump, where like, the first thing the new regime comes in and says, man, the old guys really were bad at this, but we're going to be better. But.

• 10:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that seemed like a kicking Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi on the way out. I will say, saw Digger.

• 10:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 10:41Chris Ryan?

  Liked it quite a bit.

• 10:42Andy Greenwald?

  Whoa, look at you!

• 10:43Chris Ryan?

  It's not a zag. I mean, I don't think any, I think you can, there's, you can say, maybe like, the overall message of Digger is this, or you can say like, you enjoyed or didn't enjoy aspects of it, but I certainly was like, blown away by the scope and vision of its production.

• 11:04Andy Greenwald?

  How will I?

• 11:05Chris Ryan?

  And Cruise is incredible.

• 11:06Andy Greenwald?

  How would I do as a cat dad?

• 11:08Chris Ryan?

  I think you'd be fine.

• 11:09Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, thank you.

• 11:10Chris Ryan?

  I think you'd be fine. Is that your primary interest, rather than the climate disaster facing our world?

• 11:17Andy Greenwald?

  I drive an electric car, so that part is settled.

• 11:19Chris Ryan?

  That's settled business for me.

• 11:20Andy Greenwald?

  Can I just ask one other question about it?

• 11:22Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 11:22Andy Greenwald?

  This is a little bit pulling from your third chair on the big picture standing, which I respect.

• 11:26Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:26Andy Greenwald?

  It was very interesting for that Digger, for that Skydance, first thing they do is shit on the old guys, like, Digger story, that there were kind of two thought trains leaving the station from that. One was, basically, one was like, man, like, this is, that's a ridiculous amount of money to spend on something, and DeLuca and Abdi were really over their skis in terms of empowering filmmakers who are not going to be, you know, financially responsible. The other side of it was this morning of, well, now no one is ever going to trust a filmmaker to do something original in the theatrical space again. And my main takeaway is, it just sucks that everything is now, every argument is now reduced to

• 12:09Andy Greenwald?

  one sample, one example. You know, this was, this was, that's a phrase, that's a way we talked about, what was it, just like, like, two or three weeks ago, when I was just, I felt like there was something that we were talking about, the TV show, that we had mixed feelings about, but it had become an exemplar of a type of TV that we want to still be made. Maybe this is just something we always do. But I'm blanking on specifically what I was saying. It's part of our severance comments, too, when we talk about severance.

• 12:35Chris Ryan?

  I feel somewhat severed right now, because I'm like, did I say that?

• 12:38Andy Greenwald?

  No, I feel like we, I mean, I often say that, but like.

• 12:41Chris Ryan?

  It's like, yeah, you're like, I'll die supporting its right to be this show, kind of thing.

• 12:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and I wish it wasn't all on this, to say like, so anyway, I didn't know how you saw that as a, as a film commentator.

• 12:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I feel complicated about this because, you know, it's easy to look at like, the C-suite and be like, why does David Zaslove get an $800 million parachute going out of this possibly catastrophic merger? You know, why do people need, like, this kind of extravagance in their, like, just to basically green light something, you know? But I do think that there's always been a relationship between fiscal responsibility and being able to take artistic leaps.

• 13:29Andy Greenwald?

  Totally.

• 13:29Chris Ryan?

  And if Digger had been made for $60 million, and I don't know what that version of Digger would have looked like, or how, what cast it would have had, or if it could have even gotten a sit-down with Tom Cruise, but like, it is the kind of movie that probably should be a little bit more financially responsible in its relationship to what kind of money it's going to bring in, you know? And I think that, I think we're going to continue to see stories like this as these costs kind of are bloated, and there's, like, the interest rates are higher. I think if you want to shoot stuff here, it's expensive.

• 14:09Chris Ryan?

  But I think somewhere, somewhere like, outside of like, firing more grips, or firing more marketing people, there needs to be some sort of evaluation about why this stuff costs what it does.

• 14:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yep, fair.

• 14:22Chris Ryan?

  But I also don't know the, in like, the details of the economics of filmmaking enough to like, make a definitive statement about that. I just don't know. It looks incredible, but that's like, more than they, like, that's more than a Lord of the Rings movie. You know what I mean?

• 14:37Andy Greenwald?

  Well, right. I mean, I think this is just, it's the nature of how.

• 14:41Chris Ryan?

  And he shot in Pinewood for nine months, or whatever they did. Like, I understand why.

• 14:45Andy Greenwald?

  But this is a reflection of our economic reality. It's either, it's literally all or nothing. It's either, it's Back Room's an obsession, or it's Digger. And, I mean, if you look at the other list, the other thing, in these stories about how much money it lost, of course, there was a rush to be like, well, there was John Carter from Mars, there was, you know, other famous bombs. The Marvels was up there as one of the greatest money losers of all time.

• 15:09Chris Ryan?

  They kept making Marvel movies.

• 15:11Andy Greenwald?

  They did, but they'll never make one with three women as the lead again. So I guess that's a win for some demographics.

• 15:17Chris Ryan?

  That should be our horizon for how long we pod for.

• 15:21Andy Greenwald?

  Until Marvel once again.

• 15:23Chris Ryan?

  Makes a three-woman Marvel movie.

• 15:25Andy Greenwald?

  Not a two.

• 15:27Chris Ryan?

  Like the watchers on the wall.

• 15:30Andy Greenwald?

  Our work here is done. When Marvel finally makes good on the promise of that one.

• 15:35Chris Ryan?

  102-year-old Kevin Feige finally says, we can do it.

• 15:40Andy Greenwald?

  That one shot in Endgame, when Gwyneth Paltrow is revealed inside of an Iron Man costume and looks at Shuri and nods. Like, when they finally cash that check that they wrote in that scene.

• 15:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:51Andy Greenwald?

  God, I heard of someone on the streets of, you know, New York, right? It's kind of like, a walkable city. I heard some people talking, and they were like, I didn't know there was a new, there's a new Avengers movie out, and it's like, really, like, it's like a really big deal. Like, it's made a lot of money. And I couldn't tell if they were time travelers, or like, beautiful people who only read the New York Review of Books.

• 16:14Chris Ryan?

  Are they talking about?

• 16:15Andy Greenwald?

  They were talking about the Endgame re-release.

• 16:17Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 16:18Andy Greenwald?

  But they were actively engaged with this idea that there was a new Avengers movie out that seemed to be pretty significant, and they were intrigued by it. And it was completely guileless. And so I can't decide if they were, what side of the cultural spectrum were they on? Were they children? Or were they like?

• 16:32Chris Ryan?

  You saw them.

• 16:33Andy Greenwald?

  Or was it like, I didn't see them. I heard them talking while I was ordering a coffee, and I didn't like, turn around and be like.

• 16:38Chris Ryan?

  So one would assume they were children if you were ordering a coffee, and they were talking about, I heard there's a new Avengers. That's not how children talk.

• 16:45Andy Greenwald?

  I realize now, I've also made an error in my story. I was ordering an espresso tonic.

• 16:49Chris Ryan?

  Were you really?

• 16:50Andy Greenwald?

  Because I enjoy that during the day, and I was so focused on keeping it from you, that I didn't turn it around. But I feel like, was it like, if I turned around, I guess it could have been people who are new to culture, or it could have been Wallace Shawn and Elaine May.

• 17:02Chris Ryan?

  It would have been, the funniest is if it had been Paul Bettany and Jennifer Connelly. And he's like, I hear there's a new Vision series on.

• 17:11Andy Greenwald?

  That's not too far.

• 17:13Chris Ryan?

  That's coming out soon.

• 17:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, you excited?

• 17:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I'll check it out.

• 17:16Andy Greenwald?

  You know that like.

• 17:17Chris Ryan?

  We have a couple of shows coming out soon that I'm excited about. Vision, Vision Quest and Lowdown, and Lowdown's next week, so we'll do that next Thursday.

• 17:24Andy Greenwald?

  Do you feel personally triggered, the fact that like, the advertising for Vision Quest, one of the, of the, like, the few posters that are ever, or one of them is James Spader with a giant, like, Michael Stipe?

• 17:34Chris Ryan?

  Didn't we have this conversation before?

• 17:35Andy Greenwald?

  No, we did.

• 17:35Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 17:36Andy Greenwald?

  But, and you were like, oh, James Spader isn't a robot in this? And I was like, no, it's just.

• 17:40Chris Ryan?

  It's James Spader in like.

• 17:42Andy Greenwald?

  And now they are advertising it. They're like, is that David Letterman or Michael Stipe?

• 17:46Chris Ryan?

  We've got to get that blacklist crowd getting in there.

• 17:48Andy Greenwald?

  What was his name? Like, Raymond Reddington? He didn't have facial hair like that?

• 17:52Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 17:52Andy Greenwald?

  On the blacklist.

• 17:54Chris Ryan?

  I wanted to ask you about the trailer for a new Netflix series called The Altruists. The Altruists stars Anthony Boyle, who we loved in Say Nothing and was in Masters of the Air. And of course, Julia Garner, who is, you know, the other day I was on Bill's pod and we were talking about cable TV Hall of Fame actors and Reese and Danes and all these people. I think Julia Garner is in the mix there.

• 18:20Andy Greenwald?

  The Americans.

• 18:20Chris Ryan?

  And this is about Sam Bankman Freed and the fall, the rise and fall of FTX. And it comes via, like, almost at this point, like, an old school way of thinking about TV production where it's adapted from, I believe, New York Magazine piece.

• 18:39Andy Greenwald?

  I think so. They are producers on it.

• 18:41Chris Ryan?

  And then New York Magazine are producers and then the Obamas and Higher Ground are producers on it as well. Graham Moore, who did the

• 18:51Andy Greenwald?

  Imitation game?

• 18:52Chris Ryan?

  The Alan Turing movie.

• 18:53Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, this was interesting. I mean, go on, you can keep saying.

• 18:57Chris Ryan?

  Well, I mean, we can talk about the pedigree of it. The, uh, the series, I'll check it out. I mean, I'm always interested to watch performers like Boyle and Garner act. I don't really understand how crypto works and maybe that is actually a benefit to watching something like this. But I was curious how you were feeling because Fantasy Today wrote in his projections newsletter about this wave of movies we're about to get.

• 19:26Andy Greenwald?

  Like Artificial?

• 19:27Chris Ryan?

  Artificial, Social Reckoning, Alex Gibney's Elon Musk documentary, the Nathan Fielder movie with Elizabeth Holmes. You can see everything. And obviously on TV, we've got The Altruists and we've gotten another, you know, Amanda Seyfried played

• 19:43Chris Ryan?

  Elizabeth Holmes a couple of years ago. But I was curious whether or not this collection of films and this TV show specifically piqued your interest. Like, is this a world you want to investigate through this? I find some of these films to be a little bit more appealing than the TV show, only because I'm curious about viewing these subjects through the lens of a specific filmmaker or artist. Like, I want to see a point of view about this.

• 20:11Andy Greenwald?

  Well said. I totally agree with you about that.

• 20:15Chris Ryan?

  But I'm curious whether or not, like, you think it signals anything? Do you think it?

• 20:18Andy Greenwald?

  I think they, I think it's a tough, I think they're generally a tough sell. I mean, there was that run of

• 20:23Chris Ryan?

  Well, there was the GameStop movie that Paul Dano was in.

• 20:26Andy Greenwald?

  But in TV, there's, there's also been like We Crashed.

• 20:30Andy Greenwald?

  I think, I'm thinking a lot about, uh, our friend Sean talked to Marc Maron for Criterion Channel. And through my enormous jealousy, I also really enjoyed it. And because I also would love the chance to sit down with Sean and he's hard to reach.

• 20:47Chris Ryan?

  Nicely played.

• 20:47Andy Greenwald?

  Did you see how I did that? But Maron very succinctly said something that has been living in my head ever since. Because Sean asked a question generally about like comedy and satire. And he was like, well, it's hard to be farcical when you're living in a farce. And so I think that there is an element of why

• 21:02Chris Ryan?

  That's what Digger is about.

• 21:03Andy Greenwald?

  Is it?

• 21:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:04Andy Greenwald?

  It's expensive, so we don't like that, right?

• 21:06Chris Ryan?

  No, I liked it.

• 21:07Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right, you liked it. No, I'm just saying, like, your mileage may vary on having your nose pushed into an aspect of the world that we have to deal with and live with every day.

• 21:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:17Andy Greenwald?

  This one does stand out to me for a couple of reasons. One of which is, as you, I'm with you, I don't understand any of this. And it's not, this is not a story that I was particularly paying attention to, so I'm interested in it. I also think that good storytelling and good acting draws my interest more than the subject matter, usually.

• 21:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Andy Greenwald?

  And Anthony Boyle is an awesome young actor and is doing something completely different from what he has done in other recent things, including the House of Guinness show, right?

• 21:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 21:47Andy Greenwald?

  As well. And Alex Lothar, who we love from Andor and from, you were, you were bigging, bigging up that Howard's End the other day. He was in that as well.

• 21:54Chris Ryan?

  Bigging up that Howard's End.

• 21:56Andy Greenwald?

  And from Alien.

• 21:58Chris Ryan?

  Earth.

• 21:58Andy Greenwald?

  Alien Earth. Earth. And Julia Garner is awesome. So I found, I thought this was pretty exciting. I also really am appreciative of the fact that, like, the calendar turns to October and a young podcaster's mind starts turning to like a top 10 list. And then these incredibly rich streaming services are like, no, no, no, we're not done yet. And things that I hadn't even

• 22:18Chris Ryan?

  They say that.

• 22:19Andy Greenwald?

  Registered are starting to come out and be released.

• 22:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I would still say we have like five things left.

• 22:26Andy Greenwald?

  But there's always this, like, I did not know about this project.

• 22:28Chris Ryan?

  I know there's always a sneaky, like, oh, I didn't know that was coming out. But I would say that this is

• 22:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. We're nearing the end here?

• 22:37Chris Ryan?

  We're nearing the end and I would say that the TV schedule in general is just way, way, way, way, way too tilted towards the Emmys for my tastes.

• 22:45Andy Greenwald?

  Fair.

• 22:46Chris Ryan?

  And I don't, I think you can make, when we have discussed like binge model versus the binge release model versus weekly release till the cows come home. I, I think that there needs to be some sort of like executive order about like how many new shows go up at any given point and what, what sense there is in putting up three or four new shows at once and then there being like a three week

• 23:11Andy Greenwald?

  So you need, you want, it's like what Trump said about the border. We need to shut the whole thing down until we figure out what's going on.

• 23:17Chris Ryan?

  Is that what he said?

• 23:18Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's the last thing he said on the subject.

• 23:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:21Andy Greenwald?

  That's the last time I read a newspaper, anyway, 2017.

• 23:25Andy Greenwald?

  Would you, would your

• 23:27Chris Ryan?

  All these movies must be of great surprise to you.

• 23:30Andy Greenwald?

  Which I'm just fascinated, would, would it be a swing voter issue for you? Like, would you swing a vote if someone was like, I will appoint a TV streaming czar to regulate this?

• 23:39Chris Ryan?

  Depends on who it is, you know?

• 23:41Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, I was thinking, I was just thinking about you posting, like, like Debra Messing recently posted like an

• 23:46Chris Ryan?

  What did Debra Messing post?

• 23:47Andy Greenwald?

  Are you aware? Like an eight, eight screen thing explaining why, how she's come to believe that her vote for the governor of New York cannot in good conscience go to Kathy Hochul? And she's gonna go to like

• 23:59Chris Ryan?

  She's a New Yorker?

• 24:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Yeah, she, I believe she said she was going to leave the city when our most recent mayor was elected. But anyway, I feel like you should do that and be like, apropos of nothing, I just feel like fairness demands.

• 24:12Chris Ryan?

  Debra Messing in Nashville, I would watch that. If she, if she did like a, like, like Learning to Love the South, you know?

• 24:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I thought you meant in Nashville, like the film or

• 24:22Chris Ryan?

  No, I don't think I would watch Debra Messing in a remake of Robert Altman's Nashville.

• 24:27Andy Greenwald?

  Sam Altman leans in.

• 24:28Chris Ryan?

  AI inserted into Nashville.

• 24:29Andy Greenwald?

  Sam Altman's Nashville, in which he puts other people into the movie.

• 24:34Chris Ryan?

  And they all are just talking to ChatGPT.

• 24:36Andy Greenwald?

  And he's like, don't you want this? Don't you want this? Fascinating culture. Anyway, this seems cool. I, I'm interested also when you said Graham Moore, who's the film, he's the screenwriter who made Imitation Game.

• 24:51Chris Ryan?

  He also did the

• 24:52Andy Greenwald?

  He won an Academy Award for it.

• 24:53Chris Ryan?

  Did he do Day of the Jackal 2?

• 24:55Andy Greenwald?

  Did he do Day of the Jackal 2? No.

• 24:57Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 24:58Andy Greenwald?

  It's just like, oh, now he's making a TV show and it looks really accomplished and has a big cast and has one of my favorite producers, the Obamas, behind it.

• 25:05Chris Ryan?

  I know. That's why I brought it up in the first place.

• 25:07Andy Greenwald?

  I love them as content producers.

• 25:09Chris Ryan?

  I wanted to ask you before we do our two shows today. Can we talk a little bit about the Lantern rumor?

• 25:16Andy Greenwald?

  Not a rumor, but yes.

• 25:18Chris Ryan?

  Can you set this up for me?

• 25:19Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 25:19Chris Ryan?

  Because I think you were, for the first time in maybe since 2017, you were across something news wise that I was like, I haven't heard about this.

• 25:27Andy Greenwald?

  I'm all across Debra Messing's social media and that is not an endorsement, to be clear. I just like to know where all the cast members of Will and Grace and that out.

• 25:35Chris Ryan?

  Like a digest of her posts on Facebook News?

• 25:38Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, I said alerts. Across Blue Sky, across threads, all of them. So I brought this to Chris's attention. I actually, like, two roads diverged in a, in a yellow, in a, in a, in a, in the woods here where I was like, should I tell Chris about my coffee order or should I tell Chris about the, the news that is roiling the DC fandom?

• 26:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 26:01Andy Greenwald?

  Which is that, and we sourced this by texting Justin to see where he had said it. So Justin Brick Gibson, my friend at Coe P on the show, and Vanessa Baden Kelly, who is also a writer on the show

• 26:14Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 26:15Andy Greenwald?

  And producer, went on the Midnight Boys and, and they all had a great talk.

• 26:19Chris Ryan?

  Pew pew.

• 26:20Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 26:23Andy Greenwald?

  It was really, it was a really cool conversation.

• 26:25Chris Ryan?

  It was an awesome conversation.

• 26:27Andy Greenwald?

  Where the Midnight Boys like didn't back down, which I thought was a really cool to see them like say like, this is what we thought and here's how it played out. And Vanessa and Justin were really honest about their experience.

• 26:37Chris Ryan?

  Van holds people accountable.

• 26:39Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, can we do a second podcast about this new chapter in Van's career?

• 26:43Chris Ryan?

  Should we do a podcast about Van's podcast?

• 26:47Andy Greenwald?

  Can Van come on?

• 26:48Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 26:48Andy Greenwald?

  No, absolutely not.

• 26:49Chris Ryan?

  He's on enough pods.

• 26:50Andy Greenwald?

  He's busy.

• 26:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, we could just do, we

• 26:53Andy Greenwald?

  Look at you holding Van. Has Van ever turned to camera and said Chris Ryan is on enough pods?

• 26:57Chris Ryan?

  He probably has, honestly. Yeah. No, I, but I've been enjoying Van's work greatly

• 27:02Andy Greenwald?

  Political.

• 27:03Chris Ryan?

  Over the last two weeks.

• 27:04Andy Greenwald?

  Incredible. Anyway, uh, they, they, in, in the course of this podcast, they said that in the initial break of the season of Lanterns, what ended up as episode five, which was called Lights Out.

• 27:16Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 27:16Andy Greenwald?

  Which was quote unquote, the big one.

• 27:18Chris Ryan?

  The Battle of Rushville.

• 27:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, was slotted to be the seventh episode of the season. And that the switch where it became the fifth episode was done in post. Now, this doesn't mean, to be clear, that you could just lift out Lights Out as it stands and drop it in seven and seven becomes, or they all drop down. Like, everything else was then edited towards this direction or scenes were, were, were, were cut differently to help the change. But I guess it did inspire a pretty big debate where some of the people who are like hashtag not my lantern were like, oh, that would have been so much better because of the placement of the battle. Or maybe because then the mystery of Noah would have remained a mystery. Because I do think one of the

• 28:01Chris Ryan?

  I think it makes Zoe a more significant character as well.

• 28:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and, and it changes the nature of mysteries, I guess, and how they play into the show.

• 28:08Chris Ryan?

  Well, it adds another one because I think if those

• 28:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, because then you see

• 28:13Chris Ryan?

  Stuff from the later in the season is happening earlier. And so you're following the 2026 and they're like, ever since this happened and Hal went to jail for 10 years and we've been rebuilding.

• 28:25Andy Greenwald?

  What happened?

• 28:26Chris Ryan?

  We're like, what the fuck happened? And then you see and you're like, oh, I can see why that guy went to jail for 10 years.

• 28:30Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think then the blackmail plot makes more sense? Like, what, and also just generally, do you think this was the right choice, the wrong choice? I think I'm agnostic, but I'm curious if you had strong feelings.

• 28:39Chris Ryan?

  I think it worked otherwise. I think that The way that they did it probably, I know that some of the, the pushback about Green Lantern, about lanterns is that there isn't enough Green Lanterning, and that there's not enough ring stuff, and there's not enough flying in space, and that there's not enough suits. But I actually thought that the last couple of episodes had way more to say about what it means to be a lantern.

• 29:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 29:07Chris Ryan?

  And, you know.

• 29:09Andy Greenwald?

  And heroism.

• 29:10Chris Ryan?

  Heroism, and brought Guy into it, and talked about, you know, like panic rooms in the basement ever since, you know, and all this stuff. And I, so I think it was weirdly more in service of the DCU than Rushville was.

• 29:24Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, certainly a version of the DCU that is thoughtful and considered with moral stakes and scaffolding, which I think we're more interested in.

• 29:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think that, I think it works as it is, but I, I personally probably would have been a little bit frustrated if you had two episodes of people talking about something that they wouldn't just explicitly talk about.

• 29:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 29:49Chris Ryan?

  And I think that that is a little bit of a hang up that I have with these shows that, other shows that do multiple timeline storytelling, is that in any kind of reality, people would be far more explicit and far more forthcoming about, like, I can't believe that, you know, the thing that changed everything for me was when Hal and Zoe played one-on-one on our souls, you know, that was fucked up, and I'll never forgive them, and I'll never forgive this person, or whatever. And you wouldn't just be like, you can't tell me that what happened in Rushville didn't matter, you know?

• 30:23Andy Greenwald?

  I also can't, I can't separate any of this conversation from how fascinating I find the decision-making. Like, how and when to deploy information is one of the most frustrating aspects of all writers' rooms, not just shows that are intentionally twisty. And the sense that I got from hearing Justin and Vanessa talk about it was that they, that, I mean, first of all, rooms argue and disagree, but then almost inevitably, it's not falling, it's like, they've fallen in love with the possibilities of what they choose to do. And so I think for them, delaying Rushville was a key, I don't want to say key, because I do not want to create the idea that they disagree with what happened, because that's

• 31:07Andy Greenwald?

  not their job, and that's not what they said. But that their decision was such a good one on, from their perspective, in terms of challenging the audience's perceptions, and not hand-holding, and really laying down a marker that this is how we're going to deal with time and story in the show. I would say that without having been involved in those conversations and coming to it blind, I was struck by the boldness and the, of the, of what they ended up with. I mean, there aren't that many moves left to surprise people in terms of how to tell time stories, or time-shifting stories on TV. Getting to the finale with three episodes still to go felt pretty radical to me, and kind of exciting.

• 31:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Andy Greenwald?

  Now, that doesn't mean that it didn't create problems later on that I still don't think they were able to solve for, one of which, which is the lack of surprise in the Noah reveal, a more fundamental, the, the sort of detached nature of the reparations blackmail thing. The biggest one to me, though, is unrelated to the time-shifting stuff, which is only, I wouldn't say it's like gnawed at me, but it hasn't really resolved itself into that vibe of like, but I liked it, which is, I don't get what Manhunters are. Like, I think that is a fundamental problem with the show that didn't affect my enjoyment of all the things that did well.

• 32:24Chris Ryan?

  They're very important to be a MacGuffin.

• 32:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 32:26Chris Ryan?

  You know what I mean? Like, they're too important to just be like, oh, don't worry about it, it's like the gauntlet, and if you get all the jewels, something big happens. It's like, their nature of like, we were robot assassins created by the Guardians, and when we went rogue, they, they X'd us out, is like, it's too significant of a story to not actually be like, okay, so what can you do? You can grant the miracle of childbirth to somebody, but not like...

• 32:56Andy Greenwald?

  But also, what do you want to do? Because I understood on a human perspective, which was the point of Noah, that he was part-human, that he wanted revenge against the Guardians and the people who did this to his grandmother, to his, to his creator, to his people, to this town, et cetera, et cetera. But Zoe's whole thing was just, she was tired and wanted to get away? And she didn't hurt people? Did she? Particularly? Like, at the end, she was willing to rain down death upon everyone.

• 33:22Chris Ryan?

  I think what she did was ambiguous.

• 33:25Andy Greenwald?

  I've been certain, caught one.

• 33:26Chris Ryan?

  I think it was ambiguous, because you could say that she saved all these people, and that she gave them a life of good health and abundance, and then she expected them all to die for her.

• 33:35Andy Greenwald?

  Right. Which seems to be a different story than the story of what she did on Anton's world, which is fine, people can grow and change, even robotic intergalactic assassin people. But, anyway.

• 33:49Chris Ryan?

  This is, it's an interesting idea to get out there, and I, you know what? Release the writers' room cut, that would be cool. I would love to see more stuff like that with TV, where it's like, hey, you know, Lanterns has been on for a year, but we're going to re-release it as like a different cut now. You can watch it this way.

• 34:06Andy Greenwald?

  Like Michael Manda with Miami Vice.

• 34:08Chris Ryan?

  That's exactly right.

• 34:09Andy Greenwald?

  Is that what you were thinking of?

• 34:10Chris Ryan?

  Well, I spoke about that in my, my solo pod last week.

• 34:12Andy Greenwald?

  Did you?

• 34:13Chris Ryan?

  Or earlier this week.

• 34:14Andy Greenwald?

  I was busy listening to the Midnight Boys. I got one pod a week in me.

• 34:17Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk a little bit about East of Eden.

• 34:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:20Chris Ryan?

  Another, another show where writers are, or a writer in this case, is taking liberties with some beloved source material.

• 34:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:30Chris Ryan?

  Personally, I was, I was quite surprised to see Sinestro show up in Salinas Valley, California, thank you, back there. Wow.

• 34:38Andy Greenwald?

  I wasn't surprised. There's a lot of fear there. Clearly, and a lot of like, yellow wheat, like, you weren't watching the same show I was, brother, you are not on my level, but go on.

• 34:48Chris Ryan?

  And then Deborah Messing shows up and is like, do you guys believe in voter ID?

• 34:52Andy Greenwald?

  Careful.

• 34:53Chris Ryan?

  Me?

• 34:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, careful.

• 34:55Chris Ryan?

  I don't give a fuck.

• 34:56Andy Greenwald?

  I know. I love that for you.

• 34:59Chris Ryan?

  Anyway, East of Eden.

• 35:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 35:03Chris Ryan?

  Let's set the scene. It's a seven-episode Netflix miniseries, I talked a little bit about this in my passionate recommendation earlier in the week, I believe. And Andy and I have knocked out four episodes. So I think that's a useful first chapter, or part of this series to talk about, because it largely encompasses Cyrus, Adam, Charles Trask, and Kathy Ames, and they're, and they're part of the story. And, and then we get into Cal and Aaron later, who are in, I think, book readers' minds probably the main characters of East of Eden.

• 35:45Chris Ryan?

  At least they were to me. I would say the main character of this story is Kathy, up until this point, and this has been the conversation that I've seen Zoe Canaan have mostly in press, and this has been the focus of most writing about the series so far, is the, I guess, centralization, and to some extent, I wouldn't go as far to say like rehabilitation.

• 36:11Andy Greenwald?

  No, but...

• 36:12Chris Ryan?

  But the reinterpretation of, of Kathy as a human, rather than as a, I wouldn't go as far as to say demon, but as...

• 36:22Andy Greenwald?

  But they say it in the show.

• 36:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, they do say it in the show, yeah.

• 36:24Andy Greenwald?

  And I, and I want you to, like, I feel like you've had the chance to engage with Zoe's press more, or like, I would like to hear maybe our listeners...

• 36:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I hope I get to talk to her about this, yeah.

• 36:36Andy Greenwald?

  What motivated her, I mean, obviously, the, the part of the story that is like the soundbite that's incredible is her grandfather made the, the film version with, with James Dean. And so there's, there's obviously legacy here, and this show is about family and legacy and all of that. But I am curious about the, like, passion she had for this project, because it spans years, I think it spans even potentially like network homes. It was never officially anywhere else, but I think ending up on Netflix, the way that it ended up was not necessarily guaranteed when this thing started.

• 37:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, she's talked about hearing that this was going to be made, and, and being like, I have to do this.

• 37:09Andy Greenwald?

  Sometimes when you can look at like, the list of executive producers of something, it tells you a story in and of itself, and this is, one of the, one of the, Anonymous Content is a producer of this, of this show, and Steve Golan, who founded Anonymous Content, is listed as an EP of the show, and Steve Golan passed away in 2019. So it is a, it has been a labor of love for a very long time. But, but yeah, I do want to talk about, I mean, I want to talk about the unmatched beauty of these episodes, and some of the greatest, some of my favorite actors doing god-tier work within it. But I really am interested in that point, because, as you were saying, episode two and episode four are Kathy episodes, and Florence Pugh is captivating and incredible in them.

• 37:51Andy Greenwald?

  But they do seem really, really engaged with doing the work of looking deeper, in the sense that Steinbeck really, and I'm not going to pretend that I read this book recently, I read it in high school, but everything I've now read about reading it, to kind of jog my memory, does remind me that Kathy is very intentionally a, a figure from hell, an evil figure.

• 38:13Chris Ryan?

  She is a product of the original sin.

• 38:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and, and Zoe feels, seems, and these episodes back up the idea that she is expressly motivated to, to know more than just that, not to leave that alone. Let us learn more. What would that look like in practice? What is contextually interesting or historically accurate that might help produce a person like this? And the show doesn't sugarcoat it. I want to make it clear that this is not some like, I don't think it's rehabilitation in any way, but it is, it is more nuanced, and it is spending a lot of time filling in things that were not necessarily on Steinbeck's punch list.

• 38:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think that this is the most interesting question about this adaptation, is that can you do, can you change the aperture, or can you change the angle that you're telling a story from? And in this case, I think trying to give Kathy more of a voice, she doesn't, voiceover narration in the series, she has, I mean, a lot of these scenes come from the pages of the book, but I think they're told in different, slightly different ways. Can you change that without changing the substance of her actions and words? And so, these are going to, we're going to discuss the details of the first few episodes of East of Eden, so if you don't want it spoiled for you, save this conversation for

• 39:34Chris Ryan?

  when you've watched the first four episodes, or perhaps when you've watched the entire thing.

• 39:38Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:41Chris Ryan?

  This is a writer's room conundrum that I'd be curious to know. It's like, can you, can you adjust? How this character is going to be colored? How it's going to be received in its writing? But not change? This is a woman who shoots her husband in the chest and leaves her newborn twin sons.

• 40:01Andy Greenwald?

  Screaming for sustenance.

• 40:03Chris Ryan?

  To, to become a second madam at a brothel? And enact a months-long plot to murder the woman who owns the place?

• 40:15Andy Greenwald?

  And to turn the place into more explicitly.

• 40:19Chris Ryan?

  A house of sin.

• 40:19Andy Greenwald?

  A house of sadomasochism.

• 40:21Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 40:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 40:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And so in the book, when you're reading it, Kathy's behavior makes sense, quote unquote, because of, she's, she's born out of like this, this crack in the earth. You know what I mean? Like she is part of a, a book of Genesis level, you know, like, like sliced through humanity.

• 40:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 40:51Chris Ryan?

  And in the show, she is somebody who is a product of institutional and social abuse of women.

• 41:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 41:01Chris Ryan?

  That, that goes on, goes back centuries. I think you could say that's the same thing. You know what I mean?

• 41:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 41:07Chris Ryan?

  That there is like an element of that, that I think, I, I think is, is Zoe Kazan kind of saying, one is, is almost like hard to visualize and it's fantastical. One is in our faces all the time. And they kind of could result in the same thing.

• 41:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think that this, I think the most successful thing, I mean, it's very, very, that aspect of it is incredibly successful and really noteworthy and important. Fellas, the phrase that female gaze gets thrown around a lot these days.

• 41:39Chris Ryan?

  Especially on this pod.

• 41:40Andy Greenwald?

  So let me be the one to really opine on it. But in all seriousness, you feel the work of a, I don't want to say just female filmmaker, because these first few episodes were directed by Garth Davis, who is incredibly talented and made Top of the Lake, directed the episodes Jane Campion didn't, one of my favorite shows left, you know, that I was saying should have been on that New York Times list, but I didn't vote for it, so it's my own fault. Culpability matters. In the sense that just by, just by staging the scenes that you're either implied in the book, alighted in the book, or in the book, with the perspective of, with Zoe Kazan's

• 42:21Andy Greenwald?

  perspective as a woman in the world and the way that she wrote the scripts, every one of those scenes is charged differently. What you feel in every scene that Kathy is in, in episode two and four, that I found really compelling, was you can see the calculus in the eyes of the men who say one thing and then immediately do another.

• 42:39Chris Ryan?

  Especially all the men who present themselves as like, I'm not like, I'm not like other guys.

• 42:44Andy Greenwald?

  Even the moment when, and Mike Feist is amazing on this show, I think, when Charles wakes up and she's by his bed and he recoils, because he has said like, like, recognize like, I understand this is a serpent in the garden, I understand what she is.

• 42:56Chris Ryan?

  And I am the same thing.

• 42:58Andy Greenwald?

  And I am bad. And he pushes her away, says, what are you doing? And his, his, quote unquote, his morals are leading. And then he plays it instantly being like, I have a strong feeling about this, unless you're going to sleep with me. And that is in everyone's face. And that changes, that changes the calculus of the character and on screen. And it, to your point, it becomes less about her being the source of all evil and more about her becoming someone who recognizes the nature of the world.

• 43:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Andy Greenwald?

  And learns to monetize and weaponize it.

• 43:28Chris Ryan?

  Or is like almost an outgrowth of it. You know what I mean?

• 43:31Andy Greenwald?

  She just didn't create her and she, it won't end with her.

• 43:34Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And, you know, her actions in this show, I wonder whether for people who are just watching it, have not read the book, are, are confusing. Because they go against what we usually see. They're not TV behaviors, you know? They're not like usual on-screen storytelling behaviors, is to watch somebody who's not just content being like, living on the wrong side of the tracks, or working as a prostitute or, you know, whatever it is that you see on the screen.

• 44:13Chris Ryan?

  What Kathy does is try to fight against everything in the world telling her that what she needs is a man and a family, where she wants to survive.

• 44:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 44:25Chris Ryan?

  And she's saying, actually, I don't need anyone. I don't want anyone.

• 44:29Andy Greenwald?

  I reject.

• 44:29Chris Ryan?

  I want complete and total independence and freedom. And it's a behavior that I think we lionize in a lot of stories, especially Westerns, about male heroes, where it's, I mean, I wouldn't say anyone lionizes Ethan from The Searchers, but he is the quote unquote anti-hero of The Searchers. And at the end, he's alone, but what he has given this family will lead to the civilizing of the West, you know? Kathy does not get that grace note. She does not have that, what this woman did for the greater society no one will ever know, kind of moment. But it is a similar kind of behavior. You know what I mean?

• 45:12Chris Ryan?

  It is a similar kind of like, single-mindedness and coldness that drives her, that is a pretty consistent characteristic of most Western anti-heroes.

• 45:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think that's really well said. And I also was thinking about how this is a really interesting and thought-provoking double feature with Furious, which we, which we just talked about and lionized. In the sense of, what does it, what does it feel like to see, as a male viewer, or as any kind of viewer, to see a woman fully engage with power, or autonomy, or agency, or flout conventional behavior? And in East of Eden, it is intentionally quite biblical. Like, it seems like an aberration from God for her to just say, no, I don't want these things. And I think that that's another thing that, that, that, I don't mean to, I'm calling

• 46:04Andy Greenwald?

  her Zoe like we know her, we do not, but that Zoe Kazan does is really, really underline the moments, especially in episode three, that are basically about consent.

• 46:15Chris Ryan?

  That's in the valley, like when they get to California.

• 46:17Andy Greenwald?

  She, I don't want to go there.

• 46:18Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 46:19Andy Greenwald?

  I don't want to do that. I don't want to go there. I'm going to leave. She does say all of those things. And he does not listen. Now, I think.

• 46:25Chris Ryan?

  When she tries to leave the first time, she's like, I did tell you this.

• 46:28Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 46:28Chris Ryan?

  And the way she talks to him, I think suggests some sort of, perhaps deeper psychological aberration in this character that is not conferred to her in the book. You know, like, whether it's sociopathy, whatever, however you want to diagnose her, it's, it's, it's an interesting wrinkle that I don't think they do, they don't dwell on and certainly don't explicitly describe. I mean, other people are like, she's tired, she's weary, she's given birth, it's postpartum.

• 46:58Andy Greenwald?

  Surely, once she sees the babies, she'll love them. Surely, once she recovers herself physically, she'll love the babies. Surely she'll, yeah, everybody needs to bend this thing into normalcy. And speaking of Western, I mean, that is also the subtext of all Western stories. We must normalize this land.

• 47:15Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm. And the normalization process is actually grotesque.

• 47:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. And, and, and that is baked into, in a really thoughtful way, into Adam's story as well, about, oh, how great, you fought the Indians. I will not speak about that, you know? Now, I think one of the things that the show struggles with, and I say this with respect, I don't mean it, it fails, I think it actively engages with and sometimes wins and sometimes maybe it's more of a draw, is, is that just the sheer weight of all the things that have to happen in order for it to be the book that it is. Like, for example, getting Adam from the child that we meet under the rough tutelage of podcaster Tracy Lett, to the Christopher Abbott that is just so blindly in love with a woman who is only signaling disaster, doom and gloom to him.

• 48:00Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 48:01Andy Greenwald?

  Like, I, I love Christopher Abbott's performance. I think he's alive in every moment and he's giving us a lot of the soulfulness and depth that is required for the part. And I also like the fact that it doesn't run from the other character's perception of him as lazy or idle or ensorcelled in some way.

• 48:19Chris Ryan?

  I would love, I mean.

• 48:20Andy Greenwald?

  But, but I just mean like that, but it didn't stop me from doing, and I guess, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but maybe this is more my question. It, it turned me into a TV viewer in the sense that I was asking, why does he love her so much? As opposed to, of course he does, because this is chapter two, or chapter three of a seven-chapter novel.

• 48:38Chris Ryan?

  I can give you the intellectual argument for why he loves her so much, and it's not even based in the book. It's literally from the TV show and he actually is asked.

• 48:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, he is.

• 48:45Chris Ryan?

  At multiple points, like, hey, like, this is your opportunity to give up your wife, or this is your opportunity to tell me why.

• 48:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 48:52Chris Ryan?

  This is the way it is. And I think, you know, Kieran Heinz's Hamilton character does ask him this when he's showing him.

• 48:59Andy Greenwald?

  The property.

• 49:00Chris Ryan?

  The property for the first time in, in King City, or outside of King City. I think he's a guy who comes from an incredibly hard upbringing.

• 49:11Andy Greenwald?

  That is true.

• 49:12Chris Ryan?

  Maybe even harder than usual for the time being. Saw an enormous amount of violence, mindless violence in the West, when he was serving as a cavalry officer for multiple tours in what was known as the Indian Wars. And comes back and finds a brother that in the book, I think, is given a little bit more of a like, and these guys eventually learn to love one another as brothers until Kathy came along. In the show, I think he's like, what is my life? Like, I'm not a soldier, I don't have a father. My brother is like a loner farmer who goes to brothels and gets hammered as his like

• 49:56Chris Ryan?

  relief from this hard physical labor that he is kind of consigned himself to. He's not interested in going to California.

• 50:05Chris Ryan?

  Adam's been a vagrant, he's been in all these things, and then he finds this woman who literally pops up out of nowhere on his doorstep.

• 50:14Andy Greenwald?

  And he can-

• 50:14Chris Ryan?

  Her body is shattered and nurses are back to health.

• 50:17Andy Greenwald?

  He can pour a part of himself that he's never been able to use before into her.

• 50:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, like, it's like, he finds a part of his heart that he never knew existed.

• 50:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 50:25Chris Ryan?

  And it doesn't matter what the reality is, because he's written the story. He's written the story that, "This is my salvation, we are going west."

• 50:32Andy Greenwald?

  Sorry, when you say that, I think that's really well said. I want to be clear, though, it's like, he's written the story, meaning not John Steinbeck wrote the book.

• 50:37Chris Ryan?

  No, Adam Trask is like, "My story now takes me to California with my beautiful new bride. We're gonna take a picture." And every, what he doesn't know is that, behind this sort of like scrim of a fantasy that he's having, Kathy is, is, for lack of a better term, soiling that. Charles's brother has desecrated that. The world is not interested in his story. So, I think that his character gets short shrift, sure, but I also don't want an 11-episode, page-for-page adaptation of the book.

• 51:12Andy Greenwald?

  Nor do I. I didn't, yeah, I appreciate that, I think that's, well, that was really good.

• 51:17Chris Ryan?

  But I agree with you-

• 51:18Andy Greenwald?

  Were you an English major?

• 51:19Chris Ryan?

  But I agree with you that I don't know that it's my favorite part of the series. Like, I agree with you that I wish he had, it, Hoon Lee's Lee character and Kieran Hines's-

• 51:30Andy Greenwald?

  This is where I'm gonna go.

• 51:30Chris Ryan?

  -Hamilton character are the chorus of this tragedy and are allowed to articulate everything that I think we as viewers are having this conversation about. They should have a podcast, you know?

• 51:43Andy Greenwald?

  And not just, not just that, like, I want to, I want to like foreground this by saying, this show is fucking beautiful.

• 51:50Chris Ryan?

  Stuart Dryberg shot it, who shot a lot of Jim Campion stuff, like, it is immaculate looking.

• 51:56Andy Greenwald?

  The, but everything, the costumes-

• 51:59Chris Ryan?

  The production design is astonishing.

• 52:00Andy Greenwald?

  The lighting, like, it really, really is, and we are lucky to have it, and it's easy to like, lose yourself in it. I mean, I jokingly texted you, and for the first 15 minutes, like, "Is East of Eden too beautiful?", my column.

• 52:12Chris Ryan?

  Laura Cartman did the music, and there are moments where I'll just be kind of like, "This is pretty good." I'm like, kind of coasting along, and I wonder if the Brewers are winning? And, and then like, the music swells in as the train pulls away from Mike Faced at a train station, and you're like, "Oh, is, was that just like 20 seconds of the most beautiful filmmaking I've ever seen?"

• 52:34Andy Greenwald?

  So, let me just say that, but in general, one of the things, like, of the multiple tracks that I'm engaging with while I'm watching it, I really do have this feeling that, again, I don't mind, because this is actually mirrors maybe the way you or I or anyone would read a big novel. There are moments when I feel the intensity of the show leaning in, and there are shows where, there are moments when I feel it going more slack. And the moments that I feel it going more slack are the-

• 52:59Chris Ryan?

  Your attention going slack.

• 53:00Andy Greenwald?

  No, I feel like the show, it's, the show is, the show is a metaphysical creation, it's interest. You know, like, it comes alive, it's always beautiful. And there are moments when I feel like it's leaning in, and moments when it's kind of like leaning out, and it's getting it done, and advancing the story, or connecting the dots, or moving things forward. This is not to discount what happens in those moments. I mean, there's a version of this that is not just dismissive of the Cyrus Trask, Tracy opening, but just doesn't even do it. And it was done with detailed attention and care, but, the moment that this show lit off like a firework to me, wasn't the first moment Florence Pugh appears, or the moment that she really steps into her own

• 53:41Andy Greenwald?

  as Kathy, it is that, that, that, the Kieran Hines and Hoon Lee scene, when they walk away from this awful dinner.

• 53:48Chris Ryan?

  They stop speaking pigeon.

• 53:49Andy Greenwald?

  And he stops speaking pigeon, and Lee is given a chance to have a full humanity, and Samuel Hamilton is given a chance to have full humanity, and I want to be clear, I do not remember if any even version of this scene exists in the book. But, that, to me, was like, incredible god-tier television.

• 54:07Chris Ryan?

  I do think that there is the conversation where it's like-

• 54:09Andy Greenwald?

  "I don't speak this way because..."

• 54:11Chris Ryan?

  Because I, I know that he is like, an incredibly well-read person.

• 54:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, that's in the, yeah, that's not like-

• 54:18Chris Ryan?

  I can't remember, I think that some, some version of like, "They don't want to hear my educated voice because that then is a threat, almost."

• 54:27Andy Greenwald?

  The way that everyone is playing a character, and the way you can reinvent yourself in the West, but also, like, Hoon Lee is a phenomenal actor, from Banshee, to Your Friends and Neighbors, to The King and I on stage, and he holds the screen, and he has this deep well of humanity and intellect, and it's just like, when actor meets role, and I'm like, "This is an Emmy performance."

• 54:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:48Andy Greenwald?

  In all senses of the word. But also, Kieran Hines is just one of our great that guys, and he becomes this person. And you love him, and you see his roughness, and you see the, he's playing an Irishman in a certain way, and the way that they dance around each other and reveal each other, and it feels like invention, and it feels warm and inviting, and like, free from the relative inflexibility of, "We must advance the novel," that it just was, it was just thrilling to me. But, I say that not to say anything else is bad, it's just that there are these moments when it steps into becoming, it steps into what I always love in TV shows, not just what I love in ambitious adaptations. I think they're amazing on this show.

• 55:29Chris Ryan?

  Um, it'll be really interesting to kind of judge this show in its totality, because I marvel at the choice to tell an epic so intimately. I think, if I remember correctly, like, there is a lot more stuff about the land, and what they're doing with it, and what, what it gives them financially, and, you know, maybe that will come, but, I think that the choice to make this more about the intense feeling of the characters, and I was, is a really fascinating one, you know? Because it's doing something that television can do that maybe novels can't. Now, novels can narrate interiority, but they can't necessarily show people experiencing it.

• 56:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yo, right, and make us feel it, too.

• 56:14Chris Ryan?

  Um, I was curious whether or not you found the performance style to be particularly modern? Or, um, I think it's all on the same page, which is the only thing that matters. I think everybody is agreed to act the same way.

• 56:30Andy Greenwald?

  That is a sign of a strong creative control, a strong creative-

• 56:34Chris Ryan?

  And nobody is saying like, anachronistic phrases or anything, it's not, it's not, nothing is bumping in that way, um, but, there is a deep sort of like, in some ways, I wonder whether it's an homage to some of the performances in the film, because there is a kind of deep, pained, and, and modern, psychologicalized, if that's a word, but, psychologized acting going on.

• 57:01Andy Greenwald?

  I really like the observation, and I want to think about it in the second half. But, because it is not a often discussed, uh, aspect of making something, which is not just casting, which is obviously hugely important, but the synchronicity of good casting, where you're casting people who are complementary to each other, and it's not like, "Oh, it'll be exciting to see these completely different acting styles work together." It's not, sometimes that's amazing, like, like Jeremy Strong and Kieran Culkin, like, sharing the screen in succession, it's like, I don't know if you could imagine two actors with more wildly disparate approaches to the craft, and it works. Everyone here seems so complementary and locked into what they're doing, and they are also playing

• 57:42Andy Greenwald?

  in a kind of, I mean, it's deep interiority, but they are playing a more like widescreen, almost tilted to, to history, to like, the camera of God kind of performance. Do you know what I mean? Like, and it's also the way it's shot, of course, but like, I don't know, like, it's, it's, it's so beautifully cast, and like, we, I feel like we're underselling what Pugh is doing, because one of the tests of a great performance is like, who else could have done this?

• 58:10Chris Ryan?

  Who else, yeah.

• 58:11Andy Greenwald?

  Um, I don't, I don't know of a contemporary actor that could have ticked all the boxes necessary, including, you know, on like, a more cynical level, like, getting it made.

• 58:21Chris Ryan?

  Well, look, I mean, I think I've seen more actors than I can count, at this point in Pugh's career, decide enough's enough, and that what they would like to do is make things that entire families can enjoy, or that they, like, they can show their kids, or that, you know, like, or, or, I don't, not, yeah. I, this is an incredibly challenging role, and an incredibly demanding role. And I feel like, pretty singular these days, in just being like, "I am going to be a vessel of what most people consider evil."

• 59:01Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:02Chris Ryan?

  And, she's naked a lot of this series, like, it's, it's an incredibly brave performance, and I don't see a lot of other, of her contemporaries doing this.

• 59:14Andy Greenwald?

  I, I agree with you, I also want to run at your point about like, doing things that, for, for families to see and children to see, I would like to take this moment to apologize to the families and young children on Delta Flight 771 yesterday, from JFK to LAX. Um, they definitely saw more of Black Widow than they anticipated, and they also saw your humble narrator, perhaps hitting the 10-second skip? So, if there was some nuance to some of those sex scenes, I am, I got a cop to having lost some of it, because-

• 59:43Chris Ryan?

  They were pretty straightforward in the early 20th century, you know? They kind of went at things-

• 59:48Andy Greenwald?

  Not Kathy? I don't know what you're talking about, Kathy seems to be a cut above, an emphasis on the cut.

• 59:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the, the all-time like hardest thing I've ever watched on a plane next to another person is Manchester by the Sea.

• 1:00:03Andy Greenwald?

  Because of how you behaved, or because of how?

• 1:00:05Chris Ryan?

  Well, I was locked in. I had to do it for Rewatchables and I needed to like-

• 1:00:09Andy Greenwald?

  Classic rewatchable film.

• 1:00:10Chris Ryan?

  Honestly, it was one of our best episodes. And, but yeah, like, a couple of things in that movie that I think my seatmate was like, what?

• 1:00:19Andy Greenwald?

  My, my thing, and I texted this to you, and I, I didn't get a lot of response, but maybe it's because I didn't give you the specificity of what I was drinking on the flight, because I think you, maybe you don't know what I tend to-

• 1:00:28Chris Ryan?

  I'm always curious about what you're drinking.

• 1:00:31Andy Greenwald?

  The guy next to me did what I thought was such a good idea, because they had the movies, which was like, I'm gonna watch all of the J.J. Abrams Star Trek films.

• 1:00:39Chris Ryan?

  This is my move. I have told you this.

• 1:00:40Andy Greenwald?

  What?

• 1:00:40Chris Ryan?

  The international flay is time for the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

• 1:00:43Andy Greenwald?

  Right, so I think he was doing a version of that. I don't know if he, if these are favorites, or he was just like, this is cool, this is the right level of engagement. And he watched the first one, and when I wasn't watching or skipping Florence Pugh nude scenes, I was like, seeing and kind of remembering, that movie kind of rips. Like, that first one with Chris Pine and Quinto and Nimoy, like, that's a good movie. And he enjoyed it. And then I dug back into the farmlands of Salinas. And when I looked up again, he was watching the third one. Star Trek Beyond with Idris Elba.

• 1:01:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Andy Greenwald?

  Which I swear to God, I don't have any memory of.

• 1:01:17Chris Ryan?

  I didn't. I don't think I saw that one.

• 1:01:19Andy Greenwald?

  So I was like, oh, he must be, he must love this one, or he must have recently rewatched-

• 1:01:25Chris Ryan?

  Two.

• 1:01:25Andy Greenwald?

  Into Darkness.

• 1:01:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Andy Greenwald?

  But no, after Three was done, he watched Two. Is he like, the lanterns voter who wants to reorder it, or was it a mistake? And I just, it's driving me crazy.

• 1:01:37Chris Ryan?

  I wish you could reach out to this guy, and perhaps he was the whole time was like, I can't believe I'm sitting next to Andy Greenwald. If you're listening, please-

• 1:01:43Andy Greenwald?

  I think he's like, I can't believe I'm sitting next to the guy who made the Elizabeth Holmes documentary.

• 1:01:46Chris Ryan?

  I can't believe this guy is paused on this brothel scene and is now doing some sketchwork.

• 1:01:52Andy Greenwald?

  Why is he painting her like one of his French girls?

• 1:01:55Chris Ryan?

  I think anything's up for grabs when you're on a plane.

• 1:01:57Andy Greenwald?

  It's true. It's a lawless place.

• 1:01:59Chris Ryan?

  If people are allowed to drink, no matter what time of day it is, I think you can watch Star Trek in whatever order you want.

• 1:02:04Andy Greenwald?

  God bless you. I vote for you.

• 1:02:06Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I, you know that my, my, my all-time move on a plane is to, uh, basically like, draft off of what the other person is watching. So I'll, if I'm, if in one of those rows, I will like, kind of clock what they're watching. And if it's of interest, I'll do about 10 minutes, no sound, watching their screen.

• 1:02:28Andy Greenwald?

  Nothing has ever been more compelling than someone else's screen on a plane. But then you start from the beginning with sound.

• 1:02:33Chris Ryan?

  I've started Dark Knight Rises, like, right behind a dude, you know?

• 1:02:37Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 1:02:38Chris Ryan?

  And I'm just like, I got you, man. If you miss anything-

• 1:02:41Andy Greenwald?

  I'm your backup? You're the spare?

• 1:02:44Chris Ryan?

  And then at the end, we can, like, as we land, we can talk about whether Bane was right.

• 1:02:48Andy Greenwald?

  That's incredible.

• 1:02:50Andy Greenwald?

  You know what you should do.

• 1:02:51Chris Ryan?

  But when they notice what you've done, it is weird for a few minutes.

• 1:02:53Andy Greenwald?

  And then when you turn to them, put your hand on their shoulder and say, they've got to find one of us in the wreckage, brother?

• 1:02:57Chris Ryan?

  No, I just go, you know what? You had a good idea.

• 1:03:00Andy Greenwald?

  And there's no, right, there's no ownership over good ideas.

• 1:03:03Chris Ryan?

  Not, man.

• 1:03:03Andy Greenwald?

  Not in an airplane. The collective spirit.

• 1:03:05Chris Ryan?

  No, not in an airplane.

• 1:03:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, hell yeah. I love it.

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• 1:05:11Chris Ryan?

  In some ways, I feel like we give Slow Horses short shrift because of its routine excellence. This episode featured a, spoilers for, um, episode four?

• 1:05:23Andy Greenwald?

  Four. Lost and Found.

• 1:05:24Chris Ryan?

  Of season six of Slow Horses. Spoilers going forward. So this episode featured a character death, which was significant. Um, if somewhat telegraphed because of this person's, I think, inner darkness and fascination with the going beyond this mortal coil. It featured one of my favorite scenes of the season, if not the series, which is Harkness and Lamb at a Shake Shack, talking about the good old days.

• 1:05:48Andy Greenwald?

  In Camden.

• 1:05:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Um, and continued with the Sid and River, uh, kind of buddy cop movie, as well as a delightful collection of some of the women who work in Slough House, or have worked in Slough House, uh, trying to go get from one safe house to another.

• 1:06:05Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think Five Guys is mad they didn't get the contract? Because I'll tell you-

• 1:06:09Chris Ryan?

  I'm surprised. I mean-

• 1:06:09Andy Greenwald?

  There's a lot of Five Guys in London.

• 1:06:11Chris Ryan?

  I, I saw that Shake Shack's numbers are down.

• 1:06:15Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, they've gone soft?

• 1:06:17Chris Ryan?

  I think so. I think they over expanded, if you ask me.

• 1:06:19Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 1:06:19Chris Ryan?

  Just my, just one Wall Street guy's opinion.

• 1:06:21Andy Greenwald?

  Danny Meyer, come on the watch.

• 1:06:25Andy Greenwald?

  Suddenly leaned in.

• 1:06:26Chris Ryan?

  I wonder, I, I don't know how that happened, but to me, yes, that would have been a Five Guys. Although Five Guys lighting, quite garish.

• 1:06:33Andy Greenwald?

  I think, I think the issue was more the peanut shells and like, the aesthetic. I think this had the right look and the lighting for the scene. So, you know, the best, yeah, the best space wins. It's not really about, they didn't even eat, honestly, so-

• 1:06:45Chris Ryan?

  It is pretty astonishing how much people in, at least in London, like Five Guys.

• 1:06:50Andy Greenwald?

  It's a whole genre of food, I think.

• 1:06:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Andy Greenwald?

  They, they love, they love a Five Guys. I, I also felt pretty strongly that like, the kid, the kid kind of messed up, because Lamb's initial place for this meat was a more public-

• 1:07:04Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:05Andy Greenwald?

  It was Liverpool Street Station. And there's, there's quite good food around there.

• 1:07:08Chris Ryan?

  Is there?

• 1:07:09Andy Greenwald?

  Including some like, nice, like, even like, takeout options. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that would, it's a better play for both what he wanted to eat, and also for what Jackson Lamb wanted, which was a successful spy moment.

• 1:07:20Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we're done talking about the episode. No, the, this is, this is the best season since the first, I feel strongly. Um, I, I find it like, and I know people's mileage may vary on it. One thing that is nice about Slow Horses and its consistency is that I do think that the most surprising range of people in my life of all, of all ages, have such enthusiasm for this show and get so excited about it week to week. So I don't want to be like, well, actually, season five was, you know, substandard. But I, I just find that the elevation of stakes across the board and the way that they are playing the characters, because the other challenge of the show year to year is like, how do you group them?

• 1:08:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and also just like, this is, this is a situation that you need to create a reason for them to stay here, without going away from the central conceit of what they're doing there in the first place. So these are disgraced loser spies.

• 1:08:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 1:08:17Chris Ryan?

  But they don't quit the business. You know, they're, they're not like, I guess I'll go into private security, or I guess I'll, I'll open a used bookstore. You know, I mean, they're, they're committed to doing this.

• 1:08:28Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 1:08:28Chris Ryan?

  And you have to, every six months, manufacture enough story to keep them engaged, but also slightly change their characters over time. And now, obviously, like, this is something that McCarron has done tirelessly over, I think, 10 books by now, or something like that. But in the, the series, it's just walking this tightrope of, everybody wants the repeatable Jackson Lamb experience, everybody wants the unflappable Diana Tavener experience, everybody wants the, um, dashing but, but dodo-brained river cartwright, like, walking into yet another

• 1:09:08Chris Ryan?

  trap experience. But we need to somehow create stakes, we need to somehow create an evolution of this story, and have people have like, memories of like, this happened, and this happened, and I don't want to go back to this, or I do want to go back to that. And I think that this season is really pushing the ball forward in that regard.

• 1:09:27Andy Greenwald?

  And it's pushing the ball forward in terms of, it's really placed Lamb at a very useful position, which is not just top-down omniscience. It's putting him right in the middle, where he is worried about people that he disdains. He's involved in things that are above his pay grade, which, like Diana, and far below, like babysitting his kid, Reese, which is just a funny subplot. But also, it gives him, the scene with, with Harkness, about we used to rule the world, and now we're meeting at a crappy burger place in Camden. No, I actually like Shake Shack, I don't want to be clear, like, free ads. That would get me a lot of cred. I thought that working on Harry Potter would impress my children, but if I got one free Shake Shack once, that would actually move the

• 1:10:12Andy Greenwald?

  needle considerably. Um, that scene was of a piece with the monologue that was, I think, the high point of the previous season, where you, you were, where you learned that Lamb has not just had skin in the game, he has lost quite a bit in the game. But this reminded us of that figure in a way that was really cool. And, look, creating a distraction in a public place to get out of being killed is not a new trick that the writers of Slow Horses season six discovered. But I was such, I was so locked into the scene that I didn't, I wasn't thinking that way when he lit the cigarette. You know, it, it works. The old, the old hits still work. Also, some other things that were good are- The folding a flight into Slough House storyline.

• 1:10:56Chris Ryan?

  Great.

• 1:10:56Andy Greenwald?

  Awesome. The modulation of Roddy Ho, so it is not just an extreme outrageous. This guy is not just gross, but he's also actively stupid, which was one of the drivers of last season. And the performance is great, but it took you out of the moment. So I think he's been modulated well for the season. And then that whole set piece in the bowling alley, again, it's like, credit the director, Adam Randle, because he's using these neons and these, the glow of these video game screens.

• 1:11:25Chris Ryan?

  I like that outer, like, outer ring of London stuff or out like, out like greater, sort of like, these cities that have a filling station and like two things, but like, aren't.

• 1:11:36Andy Greenwald?

  And the play, the play park or like the, for the suburban kids.

• 1:11:40Chris Ryan?

  You like the Russian assassins?

• 1:11:43Andy Greenwald?

  I always love Russian assassins. I mean, at arms length. Yeah, I love that. How did you feel about, about Co?

• 1:11:49Chris Ryan?

  You know, that character to me is, is, has been played as both comic relief, but also maybe has a backstory and like a interior kind of, you know, psychology that maybe is only hinted at.

• 1:12:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 1:12:02Chris Ryan?

  I think, um, I would have to go back to the books to know if there's like a deep Co. Sort of narrative that I'm, I forgot about.

• 1:12:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 1:12:10Chris Ryan?

  But I thought it was appropriate for the intensity of the violence of this season.

• 1:12:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 1:12:18Chris Ryan?

  For it to cost something. But sorry to see him go.

• 1:12:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I agree with it. I think Tom Brooke gave a very memorable and very odd performance. It was appropriate and it was surprising. And it was a cool scene when he's just like, sort of sitting there with his knife and he's wondering about the, um, what the, the benefits, the pension benefits of being in Russian intelligence. Um, and the whole thing about iDrive. But I, there was just a, again, it's just like, all the characters are shaded in a direction this season that makes me more interested in all of them. Nothing has changed, but literally every single one from, from Standish to, um, all the other characters whose names I'm blanking as I talk about them.

• 1:12:57Chris Ryan?

  Louisa.

• 1:12:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, Louisa is the other one I was thinking of. Like, we're coming at them slightly differently and they fit really well into the mechanisms of the, of the season. It makes me greedy and be like, oh, I wish these showrunners had another run at Co. Maybe there was more there, but also they're working off of books and I don't know, we don't know if these guys are suddenly like, my take that, wow, the show is so much better now and re-energized just with these new showrunners is not meant at a slight at Will Smith. It also might be the material. It also might be like.

• 1:13:26Chris Ryan?

  I think it's also like, um, it's an argument between whether or not TV should be this repeatable experience versus this evolving experience. And I think that that tension is what makes this show. The fact that they are leaning into it being more of an evolution and that these characters are changing and that the consequences of actions are significant.

• 1:13:47Andy Greenwald?

  Stacking up.

• 1:13:47Chris Ryan?

  And it's not that they always get to avoid the exploding building and they're like, oh my God. It's, it's sometimes they're in it, you know? And I really, I really like appreciate that, even if I'm sorry to see some of my faves go down.

• 1:13:58Andy Greenwald?

  Also, it's fun seeing, Olivia Cook is always good. She's good on House of the Dragon. But it's fun seeing the things that she does in House of the Dragon used better, I would say, given more space.

• 1:14:09Chris Ryan?

  She seems delighted to be on this series.

• 1:14:12Andy Greenwald?

  She, I mean, she's, yeah, she's, she's rocking and rolling.

• 1:14:15Chris Ryan?

  After Dark?

• 1:14:16Andy Greenwald?

  What do you got?

• 1:14:16Chris Ryan?

  Do you want to talk about the Eagles?

• 1:14:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, sure. Yeah.

• 1:14:20Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. So did you want to set the scene a little bit?

• 1:14:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Yesterday was a very significant moment in Eagles history. Uh, Lane Johnson, who's probably one of the two or three best players to ever wear the uniform, uh, retired.

• 1:14:32Andy Greenwald?

  So that's two days ago.

• 1:14:33Chris Ryan?

  It's two days ago. And then yesterday we traded Cam Jurgens, who was the starting center on our Super Bowl winning team.

• 1:14:39Andy Greenwald?

  The Pro Bowl replacement to Jason Kelsey.

• 1:14:41Chris Ryan?

  Had been moved to guard.

• 1:14:43Andy Greenwald?

  And was the worst offensive lineman.

• 1:14:45Chris Ryan?

  He was not doing well this season. And he was traded to Baltimore for a couple of draft picks. And, uh, there's some discourse out there.

• 1:14:51Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:52Chris Ryan?

  That suggests this is a white flag season, that this is, we're getting out from under some contracts and we're trying to accrue some draft capital. We're moving off of an old version of this team and into a new era with a new coordinator, but that we don't think we have it this year.

• 1:15:09Andy Greenwald?

  I've watched all four games and I would reiterate that we do not have it this year.

• 1:15:13Chris Ryan?

  Will you be getting up at six in the morning to watch Sunday?

• 1:15:16Andy Greenwald?

  It makes me feel better that we didn't actually go through with a plan that maybe only I said, which was, we should go to London to watch the Eagles.

• 1:15:22Chris Ryan?

  You did say that.

• 1:15:23Andy Greenwald?

  I did say that because I like going to London and I usually like watching the Eagles. And as a longtime Tottenham fan, to see the stadium used differently.

• 1:15:30Chris Ryan?

  Kind of homecoming for you.

• 1:15:31Andy Greenwald?

  It really would have been. Yeah. Um.

• 1:15:34Chris Ryan?

  How's your Spurs fandom going?

• 1:15:36Andy Greenwald?

  Well, there's been the, there's been the, the Fortnite break for international play. So I look forward to getting my teeth kicked in again, starting this weekend. Um,

• 1:15:46Andy Greenwald?

  I am a, my sports fandom is almost entirely sentimental. So it may surprise you to hear me say that I actually appreciate the lack of sentimentality in this. And.

• 1:15:55Chris Ryan?

  I think you're sentimental. You're sentimental about Howie Roseman.

• 1:15:58Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I mean, I do love watching a grand master at work. This dude traded a one and a two in 2022 for A.J. Brown and Cam Jurgens. And then in 2026, got a one and two back for them.

• 1:16:10Chris Ryan?

  Did Harry, Harry Roseman tell you to say that?

• 1:16:11Andy Greenwald?

  That's magic.

• 1:16:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Andy Greenwald?

  That's wild. I would rather root for a team that the team is based in reality, because I struggle with reality. So I, I really, I'm interested in the fact that they seem to be seeing the same things we are and aren't lying to our faces. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:16:33Chris Ryan?

  I think it's very difficult to do that in football. Um.

• 1:16:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Chris Ryan?

  I think it's one thing to say in baseball, you know, we just, we're not that good and we're selling Trey Turner and Bryce Harper if any, anybody.

• 1:16:43Andy Greenwald?

  We're not. Dave Dabrowski, lifetime contract.

• 1:16:45Chris Ryan?

  And we're not, in basketball, you can tank easily. It's, it's impossible to tank in football. I mean, you can do it, but people get hurt or, you know, or guys lose their jobs. Like, it's very, it's bad.

• 1:16:57Andy Greenwald?

  Or there's lawsuits like with Brian Flores in Miami.

• 1:16:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And so this would be a real like zag market inefficiency. Like, we're sellers, but the way we're going to beat everybody is by selling first. Um, and that would be a real risk. I think we are in for a very long season.

• 1:17:16Andy Greenwald?

  But I, like, again, like, I.

• 1:17:18Chris Ryan?

  But I also am not like a trenches guy. You're like following these dudes on Instagram.

• 1:17:23Andy Greenwald?

  I'm excited for the Willie Lampkin era.

• 1:17:24Chris Ryan?

  I don't know anything about him. I like.

• 1:17:27Andy Greenwald?

  He is the smallest defensive lineman maybe ever to play.

• 1:17:29Chris Ryan?

  And then the other guy on the line is like 6'9", but can't bend, right?

• 1:17:33Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:17:34Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:17:34Andy Greenwald?

  I love it.

• 1:17:35Chris Ryan?

  All right.

• 1:17:35Andy Greenwald?

  I love the extremes. No, I, I, I guess like, I, I am more.

• 1:17:39Chris Ryan?

  It's like Dunkin' Egg.

• 1:17:41Andy Greenwald?

  I think the thing, this, I think we can agree on one thing, which is that the NFL is stupid. And it is deeply stupid. All teams are kind of bad, except for three.

• 1:17:50Chris Ryan?

  You can tell yourself this if you want. Yes.

• 1:17:52Andy Greenwald?

  No, but like, the first six weeks especially, like, nothing makes sense. Most teams are kind of bad. We've had it really good for a really long time and I do not take that for granted. And I think that I would, I mean, ask me again in five weeks after getting.

• 1:18:03Chris Ryan?

  Those are stuff watching.

• 1:18:05Andy Greenwald?

  Getting boat raced for weeks. But like, but I am more interested in the opportunity to be like, okay, let's see. Let's see what it looks like if we have anybody here, if these guys are good.

• 1:18:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Andy Greenwald?

  Than running out Cam Jurgens to wave his arms at people and getting pancaked every week, telling ourselves that this is the same team that won the Super Bowl.

• 1:18:23Chris Ryan?

  I wanted to just get your.

• 1:18:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:25Chris Ryan?

  On the record response. Cause Zach Berman and Shiel Kapadia were talking about this on the Philly special as I was driving in.

• 1:18:32Andy Greenwald?

  They're, they're the voices in my ears.

• 1:18:33Chris Ryan?

  If this continues to go in the wrong direction.

• 1:18:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Chris Ryan?

  And names like Saquon Barkley get brought up as a trade chip or, uh, Zach Bond.

• 1:18:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Right?

• 1:18:43Chris Ryan?

  You say what?

• 1:18:44Andy Greenwald?

  I say, flags fly forever, fellas.

• 1:18:46Chris Ryan?

  Okay. It's really about the color. It's, it's about the.

• 1:18:49Andy Greenwald?

  I root for the shirts.

• 1:18:49Chris Ryan?

  The front of the jersey, not the back. Yeah.

• 1:18:51Andy Greenwald?

  Now that said, I will not hear any Jalen Hurts slander and I think he's playing great.

• 1:18:55Chris Ryan?

  That's weird.

• 1:18:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Chris Ryan?

  That's weird.

• 1:18:56Andy Greenwald?

  I, I think it's not his fault.

• 1:18:57Chris Ryan?

  So that, you wouldn't trade Jalen?

• 1:18:59Andy Greenwald?

  Never.

• 1:18:59Chris Ryan?

  To the Cardinals?

• 1:19:00Andy Greenwald?

  What? No.

• 1:19:01Chris Ryan?

  For a number one pick?

• 1:19:01Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 1:19:02Chris Ryan?

  No. Okay.

• 1:19:03Andy Greenwald?

  Not my QB. That's my QB1. Come on.

• 1:19:07Chris Ryan?

  I can't do this one.

• 1:19:08Andy Greenwald?

  What? You gotta root for something. You gotta root for something. I, I, I think the other thing that's crazy is for as excruciating as that Rams game was, we were two yards of winning it. Like, and then, and then you say what? I mean, I'm not saying I would have come away from that being like.

• 1:19:27Chris Ryan?

  It's a game of inches, man. I don't tell you.

• 1:19:29Andy Greenwald?

  It could have gone, I, I don't think that the sky is falling. I think there are good things here. I, I don't know what, I don't know what has happened that has made me reasonable. It could just be circadian rhythms being disrupted and, and travel. But I am okay with it because I just don't, Chris, I don't like being lied to. That's the thing.

• 1:19:47Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:19:47Andy Greenwald?

  Radical honesty at all times. You want to know what I ordered at a coffee shop? I'm not hiding a goddamn thing. Okay?

• 1:19:54Chris Ryan?

  Last thing is, did you see LeBron James holding Tyrese Maxey's child?

• 1:19:59Andy Greenwald?

  Don't do this. Don't do this to me, I can't.

• 1:20:02Andy Greenwald?

  I did.

• 1:20:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:04Andy Greenwald?

  I did.

• 1:20:04Chris Ryan?

  It's pretty good stuff.

• 1:20:05Andy Greenwald?

  It's really, really good stuff. You worried about the Huck Porter injury?

• 1:20:09Chris Ryan?

  It's disappointing. I feel bad for him.

• 1:20:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Uh, we need a backup center desperately.

• 1:20:15Andy Greenwald?

  Who, who you got?

• 1:20:17Chris Ryan?

  I really, I don't know.

• 1:20:18Andy Greenwald?

  You haven't worked the waiver wires here? You don't think?

• 1:20:20Chris Ryan?

  I mean, we could get a body in, but I don't know if we're going to get anybody who can like, I mean, like Nick Nurse was like, well, like LeBron can do some. And I was like, oh shit, you know?

• 1:20:30Chris Ryan?

  Now, I just don't, I don't think LeBron was like, what I want to do is play small five.

• 1:20:34Andy Greenwald?

  With his degenerative arthritis?

• 1:20:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and my sciatica. Uh, here's the deal.

• 1:20:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:39Chris Ryan?

  We're about an hour and 20 in, so I don't know if anybody's going to hear this. No show on Monday. Well, we both have travels next week, but we will be united in New York City on Thursday to do a podcast where we'll talk about the second season of the Lowdown. And maybe we'll complete our East of Eden conversation, which was so wonderful to talk to you about.

• 1:20:57Andy Greenwald?

  Where are we going to have it? Are we going to record like at the Spotify studios? Are you going to come to my office? Are we going to do it at like Boat Bar?

• 1:21:04Chris Ryan?

  Where would you like to do it?

• 1:21:06Andy Greenwald?

  I would like you to tell me where to go.

• 1:21:08Chris Ryan?

  The last time we tried to record at a bar was at Bad Brother. And while it was an awesome experience.

• 1:21:15Andy Greenwald?

  We had a great time.

• 1:21:15Chris Ryan?

  It was not of the greatest audio fidelity. Uh, that was also due somewhat to us, I think, not knowing how to record a podcast after 15 years.

• 1:21:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Chris Ryan?

  I think ideally we would record it in a professional podcasting studio.

• 1:21:28Andy Greenwald?

  I can't wait to join you in that studio. You tell me where to be.

• 1:21:31Chris Ryan?

  World trade, baby.

• 1:21:31Andy Greenwald?

  I will be there five to nine minutes late, but I will be there.

• 1:21:35Chris Ryan?

  Thank you to Sarah and Kai for producing today. And we'll be back next Thursday to talk about the Lowdown and East of Eden and, and anything else that happens.

• 1:21:41Andy Greenwald?

  And we will be East of Eden, right?

• 1:21:44Chris Ryan?

  Is this Eden?

• 1:21:45Andy Greenwald?

  No, like St. Louis.

• 1:21:46Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:46Andy Greenwald?

  Baseball heaven.

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