‘Lanterns’ Is One of Our Strongest Superhero Shows Ever. Plus, ‘Sicario 3’ and a New ‘Miami Vice’ Ending.

Chris and Andy talk about the ‘Lanterns’ season finale and why it was a near-perfect season of superhero television (1:16). Later, Chris reacts to the announcement of ‘Sicario 3’ (31:43) and the new ‘Miami Vice’ ending from director Michael Mann’s final cut (36:15) before opening up the mailbag to answer a couple of listener questions (46:19). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Speaker 03

  I need sports staff to clear the room.

• 1:08Chris Ryan?

  Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me on the other line, after a brief on-field conversation with Matt Ruhl, he is ready to commit to Nebraska. It's Andy Greewill.

• 1:30Andy Greenwald?

  I wish it always happened like that.

• 1:32Chris Ryan?

  You wish Matt Ruhl always walked up to you and it was just like, this hat fits you just right, brother?

• 1:37Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, wouldn't life be easier?

• 1:39Chris Ryan?

  I mean, you'd be playing for Nebraska and getting smoked in the Big Ten every year, I think. So it's tough, but you know.

• 1:46Andy Greenwald?

  Chris, I'd be getting smoked in any program, Division 1 through 3. How far are we stretching this?

• 1:53Chris Ryan?

  Not me, man. I was born to play for Dan Lanning or the University of Miami. You know, there's a couple of programs that I think I could have applied myself at. Andy, fun show today.

• 2:03Andy Greenwald?

  Maximize your skill set?

• 2:05Chris Ryan?

  We are talking about the season finale of Lanterns, obviously. And then after that, I'm going to handle some mailbag questions that dovetail nicely into some headlines that are out there today. But I wanted to just get into Lanterns. This show has become, I don't know, I mean, like compared to Marshall's, is it a juggernaut? I don't know, but it's done quite well. I think it's been a real feather in the cap of HBO, of DC, of Skydance, the dance, they're loving it over at Skydance. And I think it's arguably with Watchmen, the best superhero TV show I've ever seen. I don't know if that's, the bar is as high as, you know,

• 2:47Chris Ryan?

  as we think it is necessarily, but I found last night's finale to be emotionally very satisfying and a little bit creaky in places, but ultimately, like the work of really an expert team of writers from Vanessa Baden Kelly and Justin Brett Gibson and Tom King and Chris Mundie and Dame Lindelof, the latter three who got credit on this last episode. So why don't we start with the episode and then maybe we can talk a little bit about the season as a whole, if we have time today. What were your feelings on the finale?

• 3:21Andy Greenwald?

  We are, I think, in complete alignment here, where I deeply enjoyed the finale. And it made me feel very satisfied about the time spent with the season. And it made me excited for future stories to come. I was surprised by a lot of the finale, which is a good thing, I think, in the way that we watch TV shows, to still have the potential to be surprised late in the game of something, even something that you like. But man, I also went away from it being like, this is one of the more challenging puzzles that I've ever seen a writer's room try to put together. And I am very, very interested in talking to you specifically, because I do a podcast with you,

• 4:03Andy Greenwald?

  but also because of your thoughts on this, about the pieces that didn't fit, despite being hammered down on, you know? Like, what I mean specifically, and I'll use an example, and then I think we should talk more about the positives. Like, the turn in Sheriff Carey's persona, personality, history, and future that had to happen in the scene with John on the sidelines, right? The journey that that scene had to take the characters in is a monster. Like, it's the sort of thing that if you're in a room and you're looking at the whiteboard and it's like, John talks to Carey, and it's like, boy, that seems like an easy scene. But you have to understand that what that scene has to do is take you from a place of, John knows what Carey did, and John is ahead of the audience.

• 4:48Andy Greenwald?

  Carey knows what Carey did, but thinks she's getting away with it, maybe, to a place of, this not only has to resolve the relationship between these two characters, but it also has to successfully sew together the origin stories of John and his mother with Carey and Noah, and also leave us in a good place about an unattended manhunter running wild in Division 1 professional football.

• 5:11Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 5:11Andy Greenwald?

  Like, what? So the main thing is, feeling good.

• 5:16Chris Ryan?

  I love that to you, the most important thing is to protect Division 1 football, not the White House?

• 5:22Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, well, I mean, the sanctity of one is still, you know, which is more corrupt.

• 5:26Chris Ryan?

  We have to save college sports. I mean, that's one of your major planks of your platform.

• 5:30Andy Greenwald?

  100%, 100%. So, but do you get what I mean, though? About like, man, if you really dig into the metadata here, it's just like, I can't believe they got away with it, let alone made us feel good. But they did make us feel pretty good.

• 5:43Chris Ryan?

  That scene worked for me. I think it worked for me after I gave it some thought rather than when I was watching it. When I was watching it, I thought we were getting another version of Sinestro tells John that Hal and Carey went to an Italian restaurant in 2026. And, you know, all these details about Hal that, I think, the show kind of took over that storytelling mechanism. This flashback only being told to John by Sinestro, who has been living on a toxic alien planet since Noah broke him out, but being like, and then Hal, you know, Hal and Carey went to, you know,

• 6:26Chris Ryan?

  became in love after he left prison and had this beautiful relationship. And Hal tried to make amends, and he's like, Hal told you all that, you know?

• 6:34Andy Greenwald?

  I'm pretty into the idea of Sinestro being such a good listener, that he was able to convey that in 2026, or whenever it is, the Italian restaurant in Rushville still has Chianti bottles in wicker baskets. And Sinestro's like, hmm, how is the garlic bread?

• 6:52Chris Ryan?

  Intergalactic criminal mastermind Sinestro is also just a fiend for tea. He just loves hot goss.

• 7:00Andy Greenwald?

  He loves, I mean, he has to sustain himself somehow, because I don't think he's pulling fresh carp out of that poison lake.

• 7:06Chris Ryan?

  Would love to see Sinestro's group chats. But that scene was a little bit hard for me to get my head around, because so much relatively crucial information was being conveyed by a character who has been living in exile, who is sort of inexplicably telling John some of this stuff, but then has to be waterboarded to tell him the rest of the story. The John and Carey scene worked for me. And I think that this is an example of perhaps the writing and the direction not being necessarily on the same page. I buy that John jumps to the conclusion that Noah is lying to protect his mother.

• 7:47Chris Ryan?

  And I buy that John has an instinct that he knows how far mothers go to protect their sons and to also make their sons into what they want them to be, or what they think they need them to be.

• 8:01Andy Greenwald?

  And John's story is one of rejecting his programming in favor of the ability to, as he says, to Noah, right? Like, if you're even asking the question, you're kind of further along.

• 8:11Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 8:13Andy Greenwald?

  The reason it works is because that group of talented writers that you talked about did the labor of scaffolding a story that begins with a heroic character journey that then is applicable to the larger superheroic or supervillainous plot. So that they've sort of protected themselves from the idea of a plot hole, because they've said, look, you buy this hero, so can you extend the same grace to the villain? I think that's very clever. And I think it works, because again, like, I came away from this feeling pretty psyched about how things had gone and about this birth of a new style of Lantern and all of that. I also came away from this being like, wow, it is another bold zag

• 8:57Andy Greenwald?

  in a season of bold and surprising zags to make the first 15 minutes of the finale of the first season of a show, a tender, laden life love story between two characters, like with some Waxahatchee playing on the speakers. Like, look, they set a mood and I went, I fell right into it. But like, I do think the two conversations are so deeply entwined, because if we were to, if one of us, and I'm going to say you, because I think you have more resources in the beautiful new studio you're in right now, like, did the Charlie Day meme, where you're like making the Homeland Crazy Board, and you're just listing all of the things that it turns out in retrospect, Season 1 of Lanterns had to do. Because even one was just baked into what I just said,

• 9:40Andy Greenwald?

  which is, I'm pretty psyched about the emergence of Jon Stewart, a new style of Green Lantern. This series had to tell us what an old style of Green Lantern is. It had to backfill the entire history of, I mean, it didn't give us a lot of Oa and the Guardians and the Korra, which was smart, but it did have to give us an example of what John wasn't going to be before it let us understand what John is. And there are so, so, so many things that it had, that it quote unquote, "had to do", that it remains a wonder to me that they had any room to do anything at all that they wanted to do. And I feel like ultimately, they did.

• 10:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, when you think about the amount of story, the amount of like, even like, seasons of TV that they wound up condensing without making it feel rushed ever. I mean, you essentially had an origin story for Jon Stewart. You had an origin story for Hal Jordan. You had an origin story for their partnership. You got a full mystery series that was set in Rushville about the identity of the manhunter and who is the benefactor and who is the, you know, who is Zoe? That whole thing culminates with this massive set piece that they then don't ever bother to top. They never bother to go, what can we do in the second-to-last episode of the last episode?

• 10:59Chris Ryan?

  That would be an action set piece that matches Rushville. What they choose to do is move to this planet, Anton's alien planet, which is obviously a, you know, projection of the souls of the main characters. And not, it's not literally that, but it is physically a manifestation of the kind of in-between worlds these guys existed.

• 11:25Chris Ryan?

  And then have a grace note on this relationship between a sheriff and a aging superhero. And then the basically digital backup of this superhero's consciousness. And his protege that they then fucking do nail the Friday Night Lights, like I love you too, junior moment. So I'm so impressed, but like, there are points where I think in this finale, if I had to say anything, it's not that I wanted like a explosion, or I needed him to put the ring on and do Green Lantern stuff.

• 12:01Andy Greenwald?

  Cause he doesn't.

• 12:02Chris Ryan?

  Everybody was really still, like, it was a lot of Noah and John sitting in a car, very still talking. Noah, John and Carrie at the sideline, being very still, watching suddenly much bigger offensive lineman block for Noah. And I did get all of your emails to the people of America about eight on eight football. And I still have notes.

• 12:27Andy Greenwald?

  I also want to say that in, in our defense, we may be projecting a little bit about poor offensive line play after watching Cam turnstile Jergens for the last two weekends. So I think we are, you know, hyper focused on that and what it can do to a structure.

• 12:42Chris Ryan?

  Maybe Cam Jergens should quit the Eagles and go to turnstile. He should just join turnstiles.

• 12:47Andy Greenwald?

  Join the band.

• 12:48Chris Ryan?

  The bongo player. Yeah.

• 12:49Andy Greenwald?

  It's a great point that like, I can, it is very, very bold that a show called Lanterns that is really about building Green Lantern into the new DCU, you can count on one hand the number of cool shit moments that the ring does. John makes the bird, John makes a watch, Hal uses it as a shield a couple of times. And then they, the kind of super Zelda Tears of the Kingdom moment, when they build a digger that digs into the, um, the room with all the dark alien tech in it. Otherwise, that was it. And that is a remarkable exercise in restraint. I also think that it was an exercise in respect and a testament to the

• 13:27Andy Greenwald?

  enormous amount of caretaking that this crew seemingly did to make sure that their quite bold, quite adult story fit into whatever it is James Gunn is planning on his big crazy making whiteboard in his office. The way that the show deployed Nathan Fillion's Guy Gardner was very clever, but also felt like very important connective tissue to suggest how these people can exist with each other and in opposition to each other in future movies.

• 13:56Chris Ryan?

  I think it was, it was emotionally resonant. I don't know. I mean, I, I found it to be a much better story about kids and their parents and their parents and what they want them to be. And maybe a, a great story about, um, a great buddy cop movie or a great buddy action, you know, story. Uh, and I found it to be at the end, it just had like an emotional ballast that I don't find in a lot of superhero things. Like a lot of the times in superhero stories, the thing that impresses me or the thing that grabs me is the high level of execution of superhero story. So it is, we've closed the portal, or we have, you know, the completed

• 14:40Chris Ryan?

  the gauntlet, or we reversed the snap, or whatever it is that hits. Um, and this had, this had more to say, I think. I mean, or it had something different to say. And I think it was ultimately about a lot of the things that, that haunt these writers, which is, you know, what does it take to be somebody with a lot of responsibility, you know? And what is it, what do your parents have to do to you to make you think that's what your role in this world is?

• 15:05Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's very well said. I, I want to run through a couple of points with you to see where you netted out. Like, did this work for you? Did this not? I wonder if there's something that is like translatable, like could Apple learn from this? Because I feel like that from the time Hal's ring told John that it was on like 10%, he basically just feasted on it, just started downloading videos, you know what I mean? Like doing like really, really big data stuff for quite a long time. And I wonder if there's something interesting here about like, cause right now, when, when my iPhone tells me that it's like 20%, I, I basically need to compose my last emails I'll ever send my family, because if I don't find a charger, like that's it. I'm never going to communicate with them again. Did

• 15:50Andy Greenwald?

  that, did, did the last charge bump you at all?

• 15:52Chris Ryan?

  I don't think I.

• 15:53Andy Greenwald?

  As a, as a device.

• 15:55Chris Ryan?

  As with a lot of devices that I get, I did not read the instructions. I am sure at some point over the last two episodes, some discussion happened about just do batteries run down slower when you're on Anton's planet? Uh, and.

• 16:09Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think they had that conversation. He kept being like seven more minutes of charge, Junior. He's like, great. I'll row across this lake, walk across this desert, fall through a hole, and then solve all the crimes.

• 16:20Chris Ryan?

  There was also a lot of like, to what extent is, is the backup as the hologram being projected by John without a ring? And does his brain have like a much longer battery? The thing that, um, nagged at me a little bit was.

• 16:39Andy Greenwald?

  Was it the blackmail?

• 16:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it was the blackmail. Were you going to bring that up next?

• 16:44Andy Greenwald?

  That was next. Yeah.

• 16:46Chris Ryan?

  Matt Ruhl, who is the head coach of the actual college program at Nebraska, Nebraska Cornhuskers football team, I believe had more lines than The Waitress in this episode. And John's mother, which I guess, I mean, maybe, maybe it was just like, hey, Matt Ruhl doesn't show up unless he gets his SAG card, you know, like it's speaking, speaking roles only. Uh huh. I thought it would be cool if Matt Ruhl became a man hunter right then.

• 17:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. Or what, what if like, put this on sun and he puts the hat on his head and then his head explodes? And then Matt Ruhl carves Noah's crystal heart out of his body? And he's just like.

• 17:26Chris Ryan?

  He goes right, straight to the Rose Bowl. Yeah.

• 17:28Andy Greenwald?

  You're next, Lincoln Riley. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's some larger, uh, larger FSB story.

• 17:35Chris Ryan?

  Yes. The battery power of the, of the ring was strange. I think it was ultimately in service of creating this Sinestro puts a poison pill in the new lantern. If he charges the ring, it means that the hologram goes away forever. We'll see about that season two. Um, but the waitress thing, I think that was a very specific, large number of dollars that she wanted. Um.

• 17:59Andy Greenwald?

  And, and she received, and I guess.

• 18:02Chris Ryan?

  I thought her use of the word reparations with John while he did raise an eyebrow at that. But it was obviously loaded and was never really like discussed again. She didn't really discuss anything. She was just like, I think you owe me $300,000 for killing my family. And he gave.

• 18:17Andy Greenwald?

  But also Hal had been in town for this whole time, apparently every day going out to do something nice to help fix things. So I feel like, you know.

• 18:25Chris Ryan?

  And she was still giving him pancakes.

• 18:27Andy Greenwald?

  Also, what's the name of his plant? Do you remember Earl?

• 18:31Chris Ryan?

  Earl. Yeah.

• 18:32Andy Greenwald?

  Something like that?

• 18:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Andy Greenwald?

  I kind of lost the thread with Earl's survival because in the house fire, Hal apparently is burns, burns to death essentially, or almost burns to death.

• 18:43Chris Ryan?

  Monday and Damon have talked about this apparently. They are like Earl, somehow Earl has survived. Yeah.

• 18:50Andy Greenwald?

  Somehow Palpatine returned. Okay.

• 18:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. He's just like, I think an alien plant species is, is going to be able to, to make it through the night.

• 18:58Andy Greenwald?

  The plant was pretty stressed about the fire. The plant was screaming. The plant was playing my role in a house fire more than it was playing Hal's role.

• 19:06Chris Ryan?

  When your phone drops down to 20%.

• 19:08Andy Greenwald?

  When my phone drops down to 20%, or I'm trying to play behind the Eagles offensive line, you know? Yeah. All of it. Um, the biggest one for me, and I'm really curious where you netted out with it, is man hunters generally. Because I do feel, even having watched this whole season, maybe would require a rewatch or would be rewarded by a rewatch, that the conceit of it was ultimately a little squishy for me. That man hunters are the worst beings that have ever been created in the history of the galaxy, the most dangerous creatures. They were created by the guardians as like an elite assassination squad that then they went rogue and just started taking out civilizations because that's their programming.

• 19:53Andy Greenwald?

  And stop me if I'm wrong about this. They were all gone, except for the one that crash landed on earth with the.

• 20:00Chris Ryan?

  Avinser, right?

• 20:01Andy Greenwald?

  Skin guy or Avinser who gave Hal his ring. That one is Zoe.

• 20:06Chris Ryan?

  Yep.

• 20:06Andy Greenwald?

  Who seems not really that evil, just sort of self-protective in a way, and wants to just, you know, live a, a nice life.

• 20:14Chris Ryan?

  That's what I say about all of our AI models.

• 20:18Andy Greenwald?

  A hundred percent.

• 20:20Chris Ryan?

  They're just curious. They're just looking around.

• 20:23Andy Greenwald?

  They just want to know what's up.

• 20:24Chris Ryan?

  What's up with the Australian banking system? Can I get in there for a second?

• 20:27Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm. What's air traffic control really like from the inside?

• 20:31Chris Ryan?

  I bet I could improve it.

• 20:33Andy Greenwald?

  Zoe is tired of her life man hunting. And so basically asks to be, this is how John considers it, that it was a mercy kill. Right?

• 20:43Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 20:43Andy Greenwald?

  And then Noah is himself a immaculate pinky conception man hunter.

• 20:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 20:51Andy Greenwald?

  Immediately implanted and grown in the body of a random woman who has just arrived from Gotham City, who immediately is identified as the perfect vessel for this child. And then Noah's programming is to be really, really good at football, but also inside of his head, there is the sound of a thousand dead stars screaming. And his plan is then to get revenge on behalf of Zoe and kill more guardians.

• 21:15Chris Ryan?

  I mean, his plan is to get into the White House and marshal the, the armed services of the United States against.

• 21:23Andy Greenwald?

  In.

• 21:23Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I don't know.

• 21:24Andy Greenwald?

  In service of, and you say what?

• 21:27Chris Ryan?

  I don't know. I don't know. He didn't get that far, man. He's just a kid. And you know, it's like, he loves playing eight on eight football with his thin offensive line. Uh, and.

• 21:37Andy Greenwald?

  Here's what I will say. That didn't really make sense for me because then ultimately it was just bent into a storyline about letting kids make their own destinies, which is useful, but also.

• 21:47Chris Ryan?

  Noah, the man hunterian candidate is pretty cool.

• 21:52Andy Greenwald?

  Have you just been sitting on that? Or did that just come to you?

• 21:54Chris Ryan?

  It just hit me.

• 21:55Andy Greenwald?

  Wow. Look at you, iron chef in the kitchen. Just with the ingredients provided, you cook up a masterpiece. I did agree with one major plank of Lantern's political platform, which is that I 100% believe that a driven, manufactured lunatic with the sound of a thousand dead stars screaming in his brain would be a quarterback. More specifically, I do believe you could make the case that there are current quarterbacks playing in the league who are clearly manhunters.

• 22:31Chris Ryan?

  Is that quarterback in the room with us right now? Or do you?

• 22:33Andy Greenwald?

  That quarterback plays for our team.

• 22:37Andy Greenwald?

  Like, there are plenty of Jalen Hurts press conferences where his attempts to sound like a human being, sound like Steve Carell trying to talk like he's hooked up with a woman before. Do you know what I mean? Like, his programming is so specific and so deeply alien that I, there is something there that rings true, even if I bumped slightly on the execution. I don't know if you had other quarterbacks that you feel like might also be suspect and would have to walk through those alien hunting.

• 23:07Chris Ryan?

  Joe Burrow is given a little bit of manhunter. I mean, it, I'm very, I still stand by Joe Burrow as cool as a, as a take, but he has a little bit of like a processing at a high level vibe to him.

• 23:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but I think he, I mean, they're all crazy. You have to be crazy to play that position, right? But I feel like it's less Joe Burrow, because Joe Burrow has some cool. I mean, Jalen Hurts is very cool. He's just also a psychopath. And like, I would believe Brock Purdy before I would believe Joe Burrow.

• 23:40Chris Ryan?

  It'd be interesting to just go through the entire NFL starting quarterbacks, deciding which one are manhunters and then release that as a clip.

• 23:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 23:47Chris Ryan?

  And have people be like, what the fuck is this podcast about?

• 23:51Andy Greenwald?

  Or, or everyone will be like, finally, this podcast has achieved its final form.

• 23:56Chris Ryan?

  Fine, let's go. Donald, no. Purdy, yes.

• 24:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Do the AFC West. Cousins, yes.

• 24:04Chris Ryan?

  No, Mendoza, yes. Cousins, no.

• 24:08Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm. No, I think it's the other way.

• 24:11Chris Ryan?

  See?

• 24:11Andy Greenwald?

  I think, I think it's a misdirect. I think it's a misdirect. I think Herbert, no.

• 24:17Chris Ryan?

  It's this kind of, it's this kind of disagreement that made Oa so vulnerable to a 17-year-old breaking the most important war criminal in the history of the universe out of space prison and taking him to another planet. Dude, it sounds like, because I think as we're nitpicking, it sounds like we're like, I don't, I don't feel like I'm praising the show enough. I thought this was really good.

• 24:39Andy Greenwald?

  I loved, I just haven't been able to divorce the what was good about a conversation from the, not to sound like an offensive coordinator, to the, this was a good process in the sense that like, I can't believe they pulled this off. And I was so, I was such a fan from the beginning of the good faith intention to try to make something good in our broken IP landscape. That said, again, this is going to sound like a nitpick, but as we pivot forward, part of me is, I don't want to say I'm concerned, but like, there was so much to do to get to this point. Shout out Surf Dracula. In season two, I would love it if this same creative team could be like, and now we will continue to advance this story. And I do have a sense, and I'm actually kind of lost in terms of what's been

• 25:23Andy Greenwald?

  announced and what's been rumored and what we actually know. But I feel confident saying that there will likely be a season two. This has been a huge hit.

• 25:29Chris Ryan?

  The season is constructed, despite being eight episodes about guys with powerful rings, it is as TV as it gets with, we end this season being like, oh my God, Hal's really gone. I think he's, that John's really leaving Rushville, but he has created a whole new runway for this character to be the terrestrial detective who has superpowers, but a different creed than the regular Green Lanterns.

• 25:58Andy Greenwald?

  It's a great setup, but is the question, as a modern fan of TV, should we just be grateful for this? Because nothing more is promised. The future is not promised. Or should we be concerned that all of this beautiful setup is now part of a relay race to hand over Jon Stewart to James Gunn for his appearance in Man of Tomorrow, to hand off some of the story breadcrumbs that have been dropped here for other creators, whether it's in movies or in TV shows still to come? And that the idea of, it's just, it's just, you know what it is? It's just a moment, speaking of, you know, stories being told in broken timelines, like, in a classic TV timeline, it would be so exciting to get, and again, because we're not in the same city, we couldn't actually do this, but to get

• 26:43Andy Greenwald?

  Chris Monday, Damon Lindelof, Tom King, Justin, Vanessa, get them all down and be like, guys, how excited are you? Are you back in the room to tell us what you want to do next for the continuing adventures of John? And I don't think TV works like that anymore. And even if these guys were doing a second season, the timeline isn't the timeline that we're used to or that we are now primed to be excited to expect, which is like, even if they were going to do it again, when would John fly back? 2028? 2029? We don't know. So I, I think that that's the other thing that this leaves me in, which is like, man, they really cracked the code of how to do this shit on TV, but now it goes into movies and now it goes into the larger DCU world building stuff.

• 27:23Chris Ryan?

  I'm not super worried about that. Like, I know that Gunn is, I mean, they've got the next Superman coming out next year, and then Gunn has said that he is already deep in writing his next movie, whatever that one is, whether it's Superman 3, or he's taking a break from DC to do something different.

• 27:38Andy Greenwald?

  David Ellison, right now, heard you say, is James Gunn taking a break from DC to do something different? And he's just dispatched like Skydance house drones to make sure that that's not actually happening. They've got to make 30 movies a year or else they get penalized. Like, they gotta, he's gotta write a lot of movies for them.

• 27:55Chris Ryan?

  Superman 28 coming in 2027.

• 28:00Chris Ryan?

  I sometimes sound like a broken record because I think that this model has been kind of abandoned, probably because it's fiscally irresponsible. But Aaron Pierre is only going to get, I think, only turn into a bigger deal. And I think time is of the essence. I would love to see them try to do some sort of Sherlock three-episode thing with this character. I don't necessarily want him to be Reacher, but you guys did just invent Reacher again. You know what I mean? Like, you have a guy who goes to towns and fixes shit.

• 28:31Andy Greenwald?

  Instead of doing the broken record thing that I have become about like, whoa, they really cracked it in the room or whatever, let me just say the most pure joy TV thing about the show. Kelly McDonald, Aaron Pierre, Kyle Chandler, to say nothing of Ulrich Thompson, who's awesome in his limited screen time as Sinestro. These three gave not career best work necessarily, but absolute supernova, holy shit, these guys are awesome. They wrote them great characters, they cast the shit out of them, and everybody was like in the pocket, you know, reacting to each other, playing characters, week to week. What TV is supposed to do is either, I'm not, Aaron Pierre has had a runway and is a very respected and cool guy, but like, TV creates stars. And I think where Aaron Pierre is today, Monday, versus eight weeks ago, is different in American pop culture awareness.

• 29:16Andy Greenwald?

  Similarly, everyone loves Kyle Chandler, but like, the outpouring of excitement of like, he's one of the realest ones we've got, has reached a different level of intensity, and that's awesome. And similarly, for Kelly McDonald, who's been great for 30 years, and this is a great showcase for her, that has, takes much more advantage of her wit and charm than Boardwalk Empire. She was good in it, but she kind of had a sad, had a tough go.

• 29:39Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 29:40Andy Greenwald?

  That's what TV is supposed to do, man. And like, part of me just wants to get more of it. Call me Ezra Klein, the way I'm shouting for abundance, but like, if that's not where we're at, I think it's probably worth instead parking, parking the bus and being like.

• 29:55Chris Ryan?

  Okay, he's going to be in movies now.

• 29:57Andy Greenwald?

  At least we had this, because it was cool.

• 30:00Chris Ryan?

  Did you feel like that objectively very lovely grace note of before John charges up the last interaction, like, what did, what did I say to Carrie last?

• 30:13Chris Ryan?

  How, and John says, I love you. And, and the hologram, whether or not he is deducing that John is speaking for himself, or whether or not he just wants to say it back to John, goes, I love you too, Junior, or I love you, Junior, before he glitches out. Obviously, like, very, very East Dylan. But did you think that the show and that relationship between a digital,

• 30:44Chris Ryan?

  basically a backup consciousness set 10 years before, I believe, they, the show is taking place, right?

• 30:52Andy Greenwald?

  I think he last updated it before he went to, like, it was, when he last used him was in that last Rushville day.

• 30:59Chris Ryan?

  Did you think it was earned? Did you think it worked?

• 31:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 31:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, me too.

• 31:03Andy Greenwald?

  I did. I mean, it, it's also.

• 31:04Chris Ryan?

  Helps that Kyle Chandler said it.

• 31:05Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I was about to say. It's like, it's these guys, and it also, because it's Kyle Chandler, and this hits differently, like, there were rumors that they went to like Josh Brolin, who's awesome, but like, the thing that comes baked in with familiar, beloved people is, it kind of does some of the runway work to get you ready to have them do certain things, meaning you cast Kyle Chandler and you want him to coach up a promising young man and tell him that he loves him and look him in the eye, you know? And that's baked in even when he's behaving in ways that Kyle Chandler characters haven't traditionally behaved on television. So if he had said that in episode four, I think it would have been a similar reaction to fans, even if it hadn't been quote unquote earned, because we want that from him. So stretching it out to the end, it was always going to land there and it was

• 31:50Andy Greenwald?

  always going to feel good.

• 31:51Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I'll let you go, brother, because I know you got to get back to work, but you're going to be back in LA for Thursday, and we'll talk a little bit about the first three episodes of East of Eden and just about whatever else comes to our mind. If you guys have any questions for us, I'm going to answer some questions today, but the mailbag is always open and it's the watch at spotify.com. Andy, thank you so much for joining me.

• 32:11Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you for having me today. This has been a real pleasurable conversation.

• 32:14Chris Ryan?

  Okay, yeah. Let's continue it in perpetuity.

• 32:17Andy Greenwald?

  Let's continue. You know what? Let's, you and I continue to do the work.

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• 33:56Chris Ryan?

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• 34:19Chris Ryan?

  Hi, guys. I'm back. I thought I would run through a couple of stories I saw over the weekend on, you know, entertainment news websites that I frequent, both day and night, and also answer a couple of interesting mailbag questions that we got. These are not necessarily like CRMAs kind of things. They're just ones that jumped off the page and that I wanted to hit up. First of all, in the news, there's really only one story that anybody would ever want me to comment on today, and that is the announcement that Sicario 3 is happening. I'm in a weird spot. We got Heat 2, Miami Vice 85, and now Sicario 3.

• 34:58Chris Ryan?

  So a couple of my favorite, I guess now franchises and properties are coming back sooner than later. Sicario 3 is interesting because it's a question of who do you think is the author of this series? Which is, I guess it is a series now. In my mind, it is the perfect union of Taylor Sheridan sensibility, shaped into a feature, and then, I would imagine, shaped in both, like, cutting away some of the script stuff, reshaping characters, re-editing things by Denis Villeneuve, who obviously brought with Roger Deakins an incredibly distinctive visual sensibility to Sicario.

• 35:41Chris Ryan?

  And I also like Sicario 2, which Taylor Sheridan also wrote, and Stefano Salima directed and had the feeling of a kind of surreal nightmare spaghetti western with Benicio del Toro in the second half of the film. I think the first half's a little bit more militaristic, but you get my point. I think that there was like a place for this series to go if they had consistently made it where a different director could come in and bring a different sensibility. But I do think Taylor Sheridan is fairly essential to the entire project. And now this third film has been announced. The exciting part is that not only are Benicio del Toro and Josh Brolin back as Alejandro

• 36:26Chris Ryan?

  and Graver, the two sort of shadowy, deep state operatives, but Emily Blunt's back, playing Kate Maser, which is her character from the first film. And obviously, like, you get to the end of the first movie and her character has been absolutely shattered. So I'm deeply fascinated to know what they do with this person. And Emily Blunt's participation, to me, suggests that they're very excited about whatever story they've cracked. The interesting thing to me is who cracked it? Because it's not Taylor Sheridan. It's Stephen Knight, who is one of the most prolific and successful writers in Hollywood right now.

• 37:10Chris Ryan?

  I believe is writing the Bond film, was writing the Star Wars movie that was supposed to be about Rey. I don't know if that's still happening. And has written countless other things, including, obviously, Peaky Blinders, House of Guinness, and my beloved SAS Rogue Heroes.

• 37:30Chris Ryan?

  So I'm at once very excited because Stephen Knight knows what he's doing. I think his, the sheer number of at-bats he takes means his average is a little lower, but it's not like Taylor Sheridan's not busy. So if he had been writing it, I think it obviously would have been a huge lift. I'm pretty surprised. I thought, some of the rumors suggested that as Josh Brolin, who'd been on press tours for Dog Stars and probably Whalefall, had, you know, getting asked about a lot of projects. And I think he said that they were really going to do this, but it sounded, I thought it sounded like Taylor was going to write it. So, look, I think it'll be good. I mean, I think it'll be good.

• 38:15Chris Ryan?

  Who the fuck knows? But I trust this group of people. The director that they've found, so Villeneuve directed the first one, Stefano Salimo, who did a bunch of 000, which is one of my favorite series from the last few years, directed the second one. Patrick McKinley is directing this third one, and he is an emerging talent right now, who directed a film with Ethan Hawke and Russell Crowe, which is in some theaters right now called The Weight, which I would really love to see. And it is being heralded as kind of a throwback, Treasure of Sierra Madre, sorcerer style,

• 38:55Chris Ryan?

  very, very action-heavy, but like, not action in Fast and Furious way, but just sort of like, physical movement, action, people navigating a landscape. I think he has the chops, for sure, but I think it's a lot to live up to. Another thing I just wanted to talk about, because it was a fun thing I did this weekend, but kind of ties into this revival of Stuff I Love theme, I guess, that we're doing here, is I went and saw the, I had the privilege, honestly, of going to Westwood to see Michael Mann present his final director's cut, that was what it was called, of Miami Vice, his

• 39:36Chris Ryan?

  2006 feature starring Colin Farrell and Jamie Foxx. This was an incredible experience. The movie looks outstanding. It was on this huge screen. The Westwood is such a beautiful old theater. I think it holds like 1,000 people. Jerry Bruckheimer was there, Michael Mann was there. Jason Reitman introduced the film. I saw Michael T. Williamson, who obviously is in Heat, like, I saw him there. Like, there was like 30 people who worked on the Miami Vice movie in 2006 were there. So it was obviously like a very lovely evening. I thought the movie fucking rocked. But the really fascinating thing that I experienced was, this is now kind of turning

• 40:21Chris Ryan?

  into Michael Mann's Blade Runner. He has a theatrical cut that, when it came out in 2006, it took a while for people to wrap their heads around it, let's put it that way. I don't even know, really, if I have a hand on the Bible, if I remember, like, everything I felt about that movie when I first saw it in theaters. I saw it with Fantasy in, you know, 20 years ago now. I know that it starts in this incredible way, where the Universal logo comes up, and there's a quick black screen, and then numb slash encore by Jay-Z and Linkin Park starts,

• 41:02Chris Ryan?

  and it's in a nightclub in Miami, and it's cacophonous, and there's just hundreds of people, and Colin Farrell and Jamie Foxx are on this undercover mission, and nobody knows. And you're just like, what the fuck is going on? What is happening? Who are these guys? Why are, who are they pursuing? What's happening? And then, immediately out of that case, they are brought into another case involving John Hawks. And the immersion in the world, I think is part of the idea, is that, like, you are thrown in headfirst.

• 41:35Chris Ryan?

  On the other hand, I think for people who maybe found that confusing, it doesn't matter. Michael Mann has since done a director's cut, and now in this final director's cut, has added what he says he'd always intended to be the opening of the film, which is a go-fast boat race and a little bit of expository setup for this deal that they're trying to blow up at this nightclub that you see in the theatrical version's first scene. This is a long way of saying is he is Tinker Man. He is tinkering with this movie, and he did some stuff with the beginning, just kind of doubling down on the director's cut.

• 42:16Chris Ryan?

  But then, I would have to do a forensic analysis of, you know, previous cuts of the film. The most sort of pronounced difference is the end. Now, if you've never seen Miami Vice, or if you are trying to hold on to the idea of seeing Miami Vice, the final director's cut, without me talking about it, feel free to skip a chapter here, because I am going to talk about this a little bit. So, at the end of the film, at the end of the theatrical cut and the director's cut...

• 42:48Chris Ryan?

  It's just this beautiful moment where Colin Farrell, who's an undercover cop who's in too deep with Isabella, the lawyer for a drug lord played by Gong Li. Isabella's played by Gong Li. She's discovered that he's a police officer after this huge climactic shootout. He absconds from the scene of this shootout with her. They go to a house. While this is happening, there's cross cutting going back and forth between Crockett, with his love interest, and Tubbs with his love interest. Trudy, who's another cop, she's been in a firefight and in an explosion and is hanging on for her life at the hospital. Mogwai is playing. It's cross cutting back and forth. It's cross cutting back and forth.

• 43:31Chris Ryan?

  The theme of this movie is an undercover cop who gets so deep into his undercover life that he doesn't know what's real anymore and who's the projection and who's the real person. And it almost feels like he is called back to the real rock, the real center of his life, the maybe even the real love of his life, which is Tubbs, which is played by Jamie Foxx. And the last shot of the movie is Crockett going into the hospital.

• 44:01Chris Ryan?

  Always thought that was great. This final director's cut puts Tubbs and Trudy in one section of the ending and Isabella and Crockett is the final moments. It's the whole last few minutes of this movie. And it also gets rid of a failed raid on the drug lord's house in Columbia. So for people who need that kind of tied up, I think that might be of note. But when Mann spoke about the movie, he was talking about how for him, the sort of central idea of this movie is this doomed love and these two people who had some time together and time is luck and their luck ran out.

• 44:44Chris Ryan?

  And there's this great, great moment as the boat taking Isabella to, you know, her exit strategy is driving away and Gong Li is walking towards the dock, but on the boat. So it's almost like she's walking back towards Colin Farrell and Colin Farrell is sort of walking towards the boat from the dock. And it looks like these two people are trying to become closer as they get further and further away. It's an amazing image. It's a fucking incredible image and it doesn't hurt that Mogwai Auto Rock is playing. And a lot of people are pretty pissed off about this.

• 45:26Chris Ryan?

  It's been a fascinating weekend of reading about people's reactions to this film and Mann's version of it, because I think what happened was Miami Vice was a movie that was largely pushed aside when it came out. I mean, people clearly saw there was an incredibly high level of expertise and an incredibly specific vision that Mann was working with, but it took a while for it to become this touchstone of modern cinema and really one of the most discussed movies of my like professional life, so last 15, 20 years. I mean, Miami Vice comes up almost as much as Heat sometimes.

• 46:12Chris Ryan?

  And there's been so much really great writing done about this movie, but I think because it was a reclamation project by a generation of critical thinkers and about of online movie fans, that it's their movie now and they don't want Michael Mann screwing with their ideas of what is special about that film. Now, for me personally, I think I get to have all three versions. I get to have the theatrical cut that opens with Jay-Z and Linkin Park. I get to have the director's cut that adds changes, does some different things. And I have this final director's cut, which I think is actually a pretty poignant statement

• 46:53Chris Ryan?

  about wherever Michael Mann's head is at, where maybe he's not as interested in the structure of these guys' lives and what brings them together and the code that they live by and what they owe each other and what they've promised each other. And maybe he's more interested in this kind of wistful, deeply romantic love affair. I don't, I mean, I don't think it's like one or the other, but I definitely thought it was an interesting aesthetic choice and a different storytelling choice. And I love that I get to have both. Some folks are not super psyched about that, but it's Michael Mann's movie.

• 47:32Chris Ryan?

  And I don't know, sometimes I think that I really try to avoid acting like I know better than the people who are writing or making a piece of art that I am taking in. I try to like take it on its face value, like yes, I can sometimes be a jerk about it, but I, I want to try and think about, okay, this is what I got and what did that person, how did it make me feel? And what do I ascribe to the author and authors of the film and what was their intention? And that's why a movie like Miami Vice has had such a long tail is because you can watch, you can watch it for so many different reasons, for the texture, for the sound, for the performances,

• 48:16Chris Ryan?

  for the writing that's buried underneath this cacophonous sound. But it's interesting that, you know, sometimes people decide like that's no, this is the finished article, like this is the movie, I'm done iterating on it. And this is something that Mann has been doing with other films of his. David Fincher has been getting some grief for his meticulous cleanup jobs of some of his films on 4K. You know, this is something that I think we will see other filmmakers do because the technology is only getting better and better. And to some extent, they can't help themselves. And to some extent, it gives you, the audience or the consumer, a reason to buy this new thing is to see what James Cameron or David Fincher or Michael Mann wanted to add or take away from a movie.

• 48:58Chris Ryan?

  But to me, it just makes the movie alive and you can always have the version of the film that you like best. You just have to pay whatever you have to pay to get it. And I highly recommend people check out this version of Miami Vice. That was a very long, long way of saying this movie rocks and you should watch all three versions. I did want to hit a couple of mailbag questions before I got out of here because we got some good ones this week. One was a very good newsy one. I wouldn't have thought so, but it wound up being newsy. Danielle wrote in and it was a very simple one. Where the hell did Matthew Weiner go? Matthew Weiner, obviously somewhat back in the news because of Mad Men's high ranking in the New York Times Top 100 Shows of the Century list.

• 49:41Chris Ryan?

  I believe Mad Men came in second or third.

• 49:46Chris Ryan?

  And, you know, he has not really been in the mix since 2018 when he did the Romanoffs, obviously had a lot of controversy around him after the, I believe, late 2017 articles about his behavior in the Mad Men writers' room. And has kind of been not really heard from that very, very much since then. And then very quietly, I would say for an announcement of this stature, it was announced last week that he is apparently making a TV show with Eddie Murphy. He is going to be making a show called The Chairman, which is Murphy's first ever scripted television show.

• 50:31Chris Ryan?

  Weiner is attached to write and direct and executive produced the product. This is all from Deadline. And there are no details, but I'm going to guess Eddie Murphy plays a chairman of a board, of a golf club? I have no idea, but it's notable that this comes from 101 Studios. So this is the studio with David Glasser producing a bunch of Taylor Sheridan stuff. And this was obviously like a huge feather in Paramount's cap. It essentially was like the backbone of Paramount Plus. And 101 Studios moved to Universal, Peacock, as did Taylor Sheridan. And this is the first announced project that they're working on.

• 51:17Chris Ryan?

  And it's kind of fascinating because like 10 years ago,

• 51:22Chris Ryan?

  I think I would have like, lost my mind if Matthew Weiner was gonna make a TV show with Eddie Murphy. And now I am too, but in a different way, because I kind of think Eddie Murphy needs something like this. Eddie Murphy, outside of like, the documentaries about Eddie Murphy and appearing on Saturday Night Live and being Eddie Murphy, in terms of his films, his filmed output, like, I don't really think he's had anything that's made a deep cultural impact since Dreamgirls. You know, things that people liked and things that were better than others, and he's obviously basically the GOAT when it comes to comic comedic screen acting, but like, he hasn't

• 52:02Chris Ryan?

  had a real like, grab you by the lapel moment in a minute. And Weiner's been, I guess, in exile for a variety of reasons. So, this is an interesting, like, these two guys may need each other, but they also, like, this is, is this a coup for Peacock, or is this an interesting flyer? I guess that's the question. In 2016, I would have been like, wow, holy shit, like, a streamer just signed up, the guy who made Mad Men, and the dude who was in Beverly Hills Cop, to make a scripted drama, by the way, is the way this is being described. So that's even more fascinating. And now I don't know. 2026, Eddie Murphy and 2026 Matthew Weiner.

• 52:46Chris Ryan?

  Two flavors that are either gonna make like, the most amazing thing ever, or it's just not gonna work. I believe this is in development, so let's not go and, you know, don't cancel all your plans for next year. I'm not so sure this is gonna make it, but it was certainly a fascinating, fascinating announcement and answered Danielle's question. Last one here, before I get out of here, was a lengthy but very interesting question from Matthew. And I'll just read the whole thing. This is about Slow Horses, but it's also about the idea of adaptation for TV. If you don't want to know anything about Slow Horses, even, I'll limit it to what has been shown so far this season, if you're catching up.

• 53:31Chris Ryan?

  But this is spoilers for season six of Slow Horses so far, is in this question. So, if you're, if you're all good on that, talk to you on Thursday. But, Matthew writes in, "Longtime listener, first time caller." Thank you, Matthew. "Genuinely confused by your Slow Horses coverage." Okay? "Confused enough that a guy who has never sent a listener a letter to anyone feels compelled to send one now. Slow Horses is an adaptation of the books, but it's adapted nearly the same way the early seasons of Game of Thrones were adapted from George Martin's. Some of your biggest praise and critiques of the plot are framed like they are writer's room inventions, when nearly everyone is beat for beat from Mick Herron, who is the author of the Slow Horses novel series."

• 54:14Chris Ryan?

  On this week's pod, that would be last week's pod, on this week's pod about season six, episode three, you guys were surprised that the whole season springs from Diana's screw-up and said that you didn't know the show, quote, "had that in its bag." I believe that was your boy saying that, it was me. You called bringing Sid back after four years of pairing her, after four years and pairing her with River incredible TV making and what TV is supposed to do. And last season's accidental killing of the politician with the paint can was the show's low point. All three straight out of the books. Diana's plotline and Sid's return are both direct pulls from the Slough House book, and

• 54:52Chris Ryan?

  co-dropping the paintball, the paint on Gimbel's head is wholesale out of London rules. When you covered Thrones, you didn't praise Benioff and Weiss for having the balls to kill off the Starks with the Red Wedding. I suppose I should have said spoiler for Game of Thrones. Or knock their choice to have Tyrion kill Tywin on the toilet. Why are you doing that now with Slow Horses? And not crediting Mick Herron more with the ideas and the engine. I love the books and the TV show, and the showrunners deserve credit for what they've chosen to compress, cut, and combine, as well as for how scenes actually play, but the boldness of the big plot decisions belong to Herron, and so does the blame when ones don't work for you." That is all good, man.

• 55:34Chris Ryan?

  I think that that is like, a really decent critique of the way we have talked about the show. I have a couple of responses here. I think we're both right. I think probably Andy and I lean a little auteurist in our thinking and our conversation when we're saying like, oh, like, I know we did this on Lanterns. I know that we have been like, if this was like, a Damon Lindelof-ism, or it's obviously Chris Mundy did this because this is what we recognize from Ozark. There's a writer's room, there are directors, there are comic books that's based on, to some extent. Tom King is in the room with them. When it comes to Slow Horses, you're absolutely right. I have read some of the Slow Horses books.

• 56:18Chris Ryan?

  I don't think Andy has, I'm not sure. I haven't read them in a while, and I did not read the complete run, partially because I was like, I'm enjoying Slow Horses, the TV show, so much that I don't want to ruin this for myself. I have since kind of done so, I have ruined it for myself. I'm trying not to ruin it for listeners, though. And I think it's important to watch the show and take the show in as a piece of television. And I think that your point is good, which is like, if you're watching Slow Horses, and the first season happens, you know, if you've read those books, Sid comes back at some point, and you know that Diana does not always seem unflappable.

• 57:03Chris Ryan?

  I would argue that if, I would argue that it's still good TV making. I would argue that it's still getting Kristin Scott Thomas to play Diana, and play her in a certain way, and having her be, for Kristin Scott Thomas's purposes, maybe patient in, this character is gonna maybe seem a little bit one-note over the course of a couple of seasons, and then is going to have a rise to power. And in the case of Sid, dude, I'm just telling you, man, like, there's another world where Olivia Cook does not have time to do Slow Horses, or is, is just, she's in Verity, or she is in, she is in prime time, or something like, there's, there's definitely a world

• 57:45Chris Ryan?

  where the people who are on Slow Horses just can't do Slow Horses anymore, and I think it's the, obviously enjoyable experience people are having, that Gary Oldman and Jack Lowden and all these actors are like, I will do this for as long as I possibly can. And then there's also the foresight by Apple and by the people who are making the show to say, we're gonna pay off Sid four seasons later, five seasons later. That's incredible TV making, even if it is Mick Herron's idea. I mean, a less confident crew would probably have tipped off that Sid's alive. They may have just had a runner of like, where's Sid, or what happened to Sid, or did anybody go to, like, anything, like, I know that they had the funeral and all that, and like,

• 58:30Chris Ryan?

  Diana basically faked her death, but like, it's still good TV making, but you're right in that we probably give Will Smith and now Gabby Chappie, like, a little bit more credit than we would give Mick Herron, when, yes, it is a very faithful adaptation of a series of wonderful books. But when you're talking about this stuff, I mean, by the same token, I could just spoil the end of season six right now, couldn't I? We're trying to enjoy this as a week-to-week thing, as I think Mick Herron would even like us to, rather than just be like, oh, what an interesting adaptation of a book that I think 50% of the people watching Slow Horses haven't read, because now this show has kind of become its own institution. So, it's always a delicate line, like, we're gonna have it, talking about, let's say Zoe

• 59:14Chris Ryan?

  Kazan makes Lonesome Dove, Andy and I are gonna have a hard time being like, what's Zoe Kazan's decision, what is Laramie Murtry's decision? How do you talk about something when you know what's going to happen because you've read the original work? It's just a fine line we walk, but I thought that this question in particular was interesting because there are very few things that have the architecture like Game of Thrones did and Slow Horses does. And perhaps it's fair enough that we should maybe look a little bit more towards Mick Herron when it comes to some of the twists and turns and character beats that we praise the show for. So, congratulations to both the Slow Horses creative team, but also the creator himself,

• 59:59Chris Ryan?

  Mick Herron. We're gonna be back on Thursday, as I mentioned when talking to Andy earlier about Lanterns, we're gonna do the first three episodes of East of Eden, and I highly recommend people check it out. It's really, it's really been a breath of fresh air to me on TV, and especially on Netflix. And we'll try and find some other stuff, maybe we'll catch up on youth, maybe we'll catch up on war, you know, Lowdown is coming back soon, so we have a bunch of stuff to talk about in the coming weeks. Thank you so much for listening. Thanks to Kai and Kaya for producing, and we will be back on Thursday.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

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