America’s $37 Trillion Financial Reset Just Started - Do This Now! | Andrei Jikh

#Ad Big thanks to Bizee for sponsoring today’s video – they make starting an LLC super simple: https://bizee.com/ich Public: Fund your account in less than 5 MINUTES at https://public.com/ICED Wayfair: Shop, save, and score today at https://Wayfair.com Shopify: Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at https://shopify.com/ich Follow Andrei Jikh: On YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@UCGy7SkBjcIAgTiwkXEtPnYg On Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andreijikh On X - https://x.com/andreijikh Apply for The Index Membership: https://entertheindex.com/ Add us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jlsselby https://www.instagram.com/gpstephan Official Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeBQ24VfikOriqSdKtomh0w For sponsorships or business inquiries reach out to: [email protected] For Podcast Inquiries, please DM @icedcoffeehour on Instagram! Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 00:02:44 - Crypto stance 00:06:12 - First bitcoin purchase 00:10:21 - Bitcoin manipulation 00:15:27 - Sponsor - Bizee 00:25:17 - Bitcoin pros and cons 00:28:58 - Gold vs bitcoin 00:30:05 - Making synthetic gold 00:31:14 - Sponsor - Public 00:32:15 - Money advice for average person 00:35:46 - Portfolio breakdown 00:41:40 - Bitcoin to $1M 00:44:29 - Thoughts on altcoins 00:49:01 - Why self-custody bitcoin 00:55:57 - 10-year U. S. outlook 01:06:57 - Sponsor - Wayfair 01:08:16 - Sponsor - Shopify 01:09:39 - Bullish or bearish 01:10:34 - Bullish indicators 01:16:55 - Investing vs YouTube 01:19:45 - Alternative investments 01:24:25 - Why Japan watches are cheap 01:31:22 - Best investing advice 01:34:09 - The 4% rule 01:36:10 - Does printing money keep people poor 01:40:07 - Why people stay poor 01:47:31 - Poor vs rich mindset 01:48:38 - Relationship advice 01:55:13 - Ideal money amount 02:11:23 - Duck-sized horse *Some of the links and other products that appear on this video are from companies which Graham Stephan will earn an affiliate commission or referral bonus. Graham Stephan is part of an affiliate network and receives compensation for sending traffic to partner sites. The content in this video is accurate as of the posting date. Some of the offers mentioned may no longer be available. All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. Brokerage services for US-listed, registered securities, options and bonds in a self-directed account are offered by Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA & SIPC. Public Investing offers a High-Yield Cash Account where funds from this account are automatically deposited into partner banks where they earn interest and are eligible for FDIC insurance; Public Investing is not a bank. Cryptocurrency trading services are offered by Bakkt Crypto Solutions, LLC (NMLS ID 1890144), which is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the NYSDFS. Cryptocurrency is highly speculative, involves a high degree of risk, and has the potential for loss of the entire amount of an investment. Cryptocurrency holdings are not protected by the FDIC or SIPC. Alpha is an experimental AI tool powered by GPT-4. Its output may be inaccurate and is not investment advice. Public makes no guarantees about its accuracy or reliability—verify independently before use. *3.8% as of 9/24/25. APY. Rate may change. See terms and conditions of Public’s ACATS & IRA Match Program. Matched funds must remain in the account for at least 5 years to avoid an early removal fee. Match rate and other terms of the Match Program are subject to change at any time. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  I think it's true that now more than ever, there's more economic opportunity to make money.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Do you think that Bitcoin's price is manipulated right now? Probably, just because you see these insane swings. Well, in 2025, there's another war for the soul of Bitcoin. There's a fight between two groups of people. One that's trying to say, is Bitcoin money? Or is it a store of information? There's a lot of nuance to this debate, but in the end, I think this will determine the future of Bitcoin.

• 0:58Jack Selby?

  What would you say is the best investing advice you've ever heard?

• 1:00Speaker 01

  I think like the most important investing quality of people that I've seen that have built wealth is like their ability to delay gratification. You eventually realize that the quickest way to being financially free isn't necessarily by building a bigger portfolio, but knowing what's going to happen next. Are you bullish or bearish for the US economy? I think in the next few weeks, there's going to be a huge wealth transfer.

• 1:29Jack Selby?

  Graham Stephan, Andre Jic, thank you so much for coming on the Iced Coffee Hour. Really appreciate it.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. Vegas Graham here. I try to copy all your content. Thank you. Huge fan of your channel, by the way. Thank you. I try to do exactly the same style of videos as you, but slightly better on the editing. You basically take my exact same videos, but then do them a day later with way better editing. Yeah, I have ChatGPT sort of repurpose your script and then I'll shuffle them into my own words.

• 1:54Graham Stephan?

  It's working. You have now almost 3 million subscribers.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:58Graham Stephan?

  And, no, in all seriousness, your videos are amazing.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 2:01Graham Stephan?

  The amount of work that you put in your channel, the editing, I get really intimidated when I watch your videos because I'm like, how could I compete with like a movie quality video about either cryptocurrency or the US dollar or international affairs? And I'm like, this must have taken you three days straight to edit this video. Whereas I'm trying to slap something together in a few hours.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  No, I appreciate it. It's funny because I'm trying to move away from the editing. I don't know if you're noticing it too, but I feel like the less edited it is, the more it's received. Like, I think people appreciate it more when it's less produced. I think YouTube is going back to that.

• 2:37Graham Stephan?

  I've tried it a few times and those videos have done really well, but I'm not sure if it's because of the lack of editing or because I saved the lack of editing for really substantial videos that stand on their own without the editing.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  That's a good point. And then every time you do them, I feel like the comments are like, Graham, you look tired.

• 2:54Graham Stephan?

  It's always when I'm sitting in that chair do people say that, but when I go back to my, it's just lighting.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  I think it's a closer camera, so you look puffier and you just look bigger on this lens.

• 3:03Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 3:04Jack Selby?

  I love this conversation. Graham looks puffier on the lens. Andre, thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee. I really appreciate it. Also, it's funny looking back because I first saw you, I don't even know how many years ago, you're talking about your dividend stock portfolio and crypto. You're talking about crypto on YouTube a long time ago. I mean, five years ago, I think we had you on the show and we were talking about Bitcoin when it was at like $20,000, which we all still thought we'd missed the train.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:28Jack Selby?

  Do you think that we've missed the train on Bitcoin still?

• 3:31Speaker 01

  No, not at all. Wasn't I like the second guest on your podcast?

• 3:34Jack Selby?

  You were one of the very first guests we've ever had.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  I remember that. You gave me the Pokemon cards and I got the psychic energy. I remember that. Now we're back.

• 3:41Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  No, it's crazy. I do remember that. 20,000 was the peak of that cycle in 2017, was it?

• 3:47Graham Stephan?

  Yep.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:48Graham Stephan?

  And then we did again in 2020.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 3:51Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  No, and it's crazy to see it at over 100 now. What do you guys think? You think with Pete?

• 3:55Jack Selby?

  Michael Saylor would disagree. He would say that we're just getting started here. I tend to agree. Also, you know, we just had Robert Kiyosaki on the podcast, and that did instill a little bit of fear when he's like, fake money, fake money, holding up like the dollar bill. It kind of does make sense.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  He's a huge fan of Bitcoin, right?

• 4:10Jack Selby?

  He loves Bitcoin. He loves gold. He loves silver. He loves assets. When you can't just print more of them than dollars you can.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  We were talking about Bitcoin, and I said, are you still buying Bitcoin? And he said, no. And I said, well, give us a price target. How is it at $100,000? And he goes like this, I kid you not,

• 4:30Speaker 01

  implying that retail investors are being dragged along.

• 4:33Jack Selby?

  Oh.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  He likes instead, he said, silver, gold, and Ethereum. And he's not buying Bitcoin at $100,000 levels.

• 4:43Jack Selby?

  Okay.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Which is interesting. I thought he would continue to be buying Bitcoin, given his stance on the dollar.

• 4:49Jack Selby?

  Yeah, from what I've seen, silver and platinum and gold outperformed Bitcoin this year for sure.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Maybe he's right. I don't know. I think Bitcoin is a long way to go. I think I've always looked at Bitcoin's final price to be inflation divided by 21 million. And what's inflation? That's infinity, right? Like infinity divided by 21 million is infinity essentially. And it seems to be the fastest horse in the race. So I think it'll continue to go up. It might dip below $100,000, though. I wouldn't be surprised.

• 5:18Jack Selby?

  Are you still buying Bitcoin right now?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, the last time I bought it was a couple of weeks ago. I bought it at like 115,000. I just bought the iBit ETF. I know that you've been buying it.

• 5:27Jack Selby?

  Yep.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I've just bought the iBit. But most of my Bitcoin is in the commodity itself, the coin. I self custody.

• 5:35Jack Selby?

  So you do the cold storage?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:36Jack Selby?

  If you're gonna do cold storage on Bitcoin, what's the best way of doing it?

• 5:38Speaker 01

  There's just so many devices to do it. Get yourself a, like a ledger or whatever else is not sponsored. You can get so many hardware devices. And then look into something called a 25th passphrase. It's sort of a plausible deniability wallet that allows you to create sort of a duplicate of your wallet. So if somebody like attacks you, you'd be like, okay, here's my seed phrase. But you have a secret wallet that's just one more word on top of that, where your, where your actual money is stored. It's called a plausible deniability wallet. It's actually really cool.

• 6:11Jack Selby?

  That's interesting. So for example, when those people like went over to Amaranth's house and they were trying to like attack her and get her Bitcoin away from her. She could have just said, oh, I have this code and then it like looks like it's hers. But in actuality, that's just like a fake code.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Correct. You could do that. I mean, at that point, like people always say like the $5 wrench attack, like at that point, there's no amount of like cybersecurity. You can be like, oh, here's. Yeah, I mean, that's, that was an unfortunate thing that happened with her.

• 6:38Jack Selby?

  So when did you first buy Bitcoin?

• 6:40Speaker 01

  When did I first buy Bitcoin? I want to say 2014, when it was $600 a coin.

• 6:45Jack Selby?

  How much Bitcoin did you buy? And why did you buy it?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  I bought like six of them and I bought it because I was reading, it was like this internet, magic internet money. And I remember reading about it when I was like at a hundred dollars, but there was no way of buying it unless you were super computer savvy. And then that's when, uh, what exchange was it? The uh?

• 7:03Jack Selby?

  Mt. Gox?

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Mt. Gox, yeah. And I was like, okay, I don't understand any of that stuff, but I remember buying it. I think it was on Coinbase. I bought six of them. And then, uh, I just held on to it for a year, totally forgot about it. And I checked a year later in like, I don't know, 2015, and it dropped to $300 a coin. So I sold all six of them to buy myself a DJI drone. It was like the 1080p DJI, whatever it was at the time. And I eventually crashed that drone, but yeah, I sold it basically all of it.

• 7:36Graham Stephan?

  So that drone was about $750,000.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It was an expensive like learning mistake, but I feel like everyone has that story on Bitcoin.

• 7:45Jack Selby?

  I mean, I told Graham to buy Dogecoin when it was less than half a cent.

• 7:49Graham Stephan?

  He showed me this the other day. We could go back on the podcast. So Jack told me to buy Dogecoin when it was a fraction of a penny. He told me to invest a thousand dollars into it in one of our first ever podcasts and I did. I didn't understand it. I thought it was dumb. And so I had 217,000 Dogecoin for a thousand dollars.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 8:10Graham Stephan?

  I, I looked at it and then the next day I sold it for a loss.

• 8:15Jack Selby?

  He sold it the next day. Paper hands. He has paper hands.

• 8:19Graham Stephan?

  I thought it was so stupid.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  What was it worth at the peak?

• 8:23Jack Selby?

  It would have been worth

• 8:24Graham Stephan?

  A hundred and twenty-five.

• 8:26Jack Selby?

  A hundred and fifty.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  That's not as bad as me, but.

• 8:28Graham Stephan?

  It would have been worth about a hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  But I.

• 8:31Graham Stephan?

  A thousand dollar investment, which meant, and I told Jack this, I would have made more money from that single Dogecoin investment than I would have from the podcast at the time.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 8:41Jack Selby?

  So I put a hundred dollars in Dogecoin when it was about point four cents.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:46Jack Selby?

  And then I held on, I diamond hands for a very, very long time, up until the night of the SNL thing, when Elon was supposed to go there and talk about it.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:54Jack Selby?

  And so I cashed out and then bought this exact Rolex with it. So we call this the Dogelex.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 9:00Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  I remember pleading with you. I was like, dude, look into Bitcoin. You gotta get someone. You're like, ah, I don't know. Do you remember how opposed to Bitcoin you were?

• 9:07Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Not that long ago.

• 9:09Graham Stephan?

  Twenty, late 2016 or early 2017 is when I made my first video about Bitcoin. And that was Bitcoin just hit one thousand dollars. That's when I made my first video. You could go back on my channel and see it.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Do you ever read the comments? They're like, oh, this aged like milk.

• 9:24Graham Stephan?

  All the time. Now, in the, in the video, the thing is.

• 9:27Jack Selby?

  Aged like milk, dude.

• 9:28Graham Stephan?

  I wasn't for or against it. It was just, I was neutral about it. And at the time, there was no real use case. It was just people speculating on it. Like, it's not, it did not evolve back then to where it is today.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:41Graham Stephan?

  It just is what it, it's just, it was a gambling mechanism back then. Now, people have a vision for it, but back then it didn't have the utility or anything that it does today.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  What changed your mind?

• 9:51Graham Stephan?

  Uh, it hit twenty thousand. It hit seventeen thousand, actually. And I bought one Bitcoin for fun, just to see what it was about, because everyone was talking about Bitcoin. And I bought it. And then I started getting involved in all, like, the communities and reading through on Reddit and Twitter and crypto YouTube at the time in 2017. And I had fun with it. But back then, I started, like, just day trading it. So I would, like, buy it at seventeen. I would sell it for, like, seventeen-two. I'd buy back in at sixteen-nine. I just did that.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:20Graham Stephan?

  And I made, like, five hundred bucks. And then I put all of that into a project called, at the time, Rye Blocks.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 10:29Graham Stephan?

  And that turned into.

• 10:32Graham Stephan?

  Fifty or sixty grand and I didn't cash out and I lost all of it.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Wow. Okay, so we all make mistakes. That's good.

• 10:39Graham Stephan?

  But that's what turned me on to Bitcoin. And then I thought at that point, okay, there's no harm in just like investing 1% of my portfolio on Bitcoin.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Do you think that Bitcoin's price is manipulated right now?

• 10:51Graham Stephan?

  Probably.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:52Graham Stephan?

  Probably, just because you see these insane swings, like all of a sudden I'll check the price at midnight and it drops from like 1.15 to 1.09 instantly. Somebody's selling. Who is that? How is that manipulated? And then all of a sudden it'll jump right back up to like 1.12.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  There's this concept called rehypothecation. Have you guys heard of it?

• 11:12Graham Stephan?

  No.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  It's a mechanism to suppress Bitcoin's price and it's probably happening on it. It's where a lender can essentially take your, the loan they give you and your collateral and then they can use your collateral. Like for example, if you're like, Andre, I want to borrow a hundred dollars. I'm like, okay, here's a hundred dollars. Okay, but in return, I'm gonna have a claim over your house. Whatever, right? That's the collateral. And then with that collateral, that IOU, I go to another bank and I'm like, hey, I got this dude's house. That's my collateral. I'm gonna borrow money against it. And then that lender goes and borrows against that. And then before you know it, it cascades and now several people and several entities have a claim on the same asset.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  But now substitute house with Bitcoin. And now you can have five people essentially having a claim over the same coin. And I think that's happening with the ETFs to some degree or another. I don't think we'll know about it until later. But one way to solve that is to self custody and that's why I think self custody is so important because then you solve that. That's why I think like there could be a very violent price movement up.

• 12:24Jack Selby?

  And so, when did you then buy Bitcoin after this one instance of buying six coins, selling it to buy a drone that you crashed? I just want to keep reminding you of that. Because I feel bad because I've lost a lot of money in Robin Hood call options.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Were you on a lot of Wall Street bets?

• 12:41Jack Selby?

  Yeah, of course, yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Sorry, ask that question again?

• 12:45Jack Selby?

  So, when did you then next buy Bitcoin after that?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Oh, 2017. That was during the Block Wars. I don't know if you guys were a part of that or remember that at all. That's right now, kind of like the biggest thing that's happening in 2025. So I'm not going to get like too into it, but in 2017, there was a fight for like the soul of Bitcoin, right? And that was called the Block Wars. Essentially, people were split into two factions. One half thought, well, what is Bitcoin? One half wanted it to be a currency, and the other half wanted it to be a store of value. So, the currency people wanted the block size to be increased to like 4 megabytes, okay, right? It was originally like 1. And the store of value people were like, well, let's keep it at 1.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Because if you allow Bitcoin to become a currency, which has a much higher TAM or total addressable market size, currencies are much bigger than a commodity like gold, right? It addresses a much bigger market. Okay, so if we allow Bitcoin to become a currency and increase the block size, then eventually, like, let's say 5, 10 years from now, it'll be prohibitively expensive to run your own node, to basically secure the Bitcoin. The only people that can do that will be like big mining companies and big corporations, right? And so you effectively centralized Bitcoin to big business. And big business is subject to what? Government control, right? So they're like, let's not make it a currency. Let's make it a store of value.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  That was like my introduction to like the craziness of it. And I followed this whole battle. And at the time, the argument that made the most sense to me was to have it a currency. Because I'm like, well, if Bitcoin's going to grow beyond this point, it needs to be a bigger thing, like a currency, right?

• 14:29Jack Selby?

  In terms of currency, you're saying just something that you use to pay for goods and services?

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a dollar, exactly. Use it to pay and buy things. Because even in the Bitcoin White Paper, it says a peer-to-peer currency. Right? And so I was like, okay, so Bitcoin should increase block size. In retrospect, I'm glad that it stayed small because then it means it's decentralized and anybody can run. It's pretty cheap to do. So that was the block size war in 2017. But fast forward to today and in 2025, there's another war for the soul of Bitcoin. Not a lot of people know this because it's like really nuanced and nerdy. I mean, I'm not the best person to explain this. I kind of did a lot of the research yesterday. But essentially what's happening right now is there's a fight between, again, two groups of people.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  One, that's trying to say, is Bitcoin money? Right? A store of value? Or is it a store of information? Like all information, not just economic data, but all sorts of data. Right? So there is a split between these two. Now, let me just ask you this hypothetical question. What is the best way, do you guys think, to destroy Bitcoin? Like, if you were trying to take it down or destroy it, what is the best way to do it?

• 15:41Graham Stephan?

  Unplug the internet.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  That's one way. It's really hard to do, though. It's not really, there's no plug.

• 15:47Graham Stephan?

  In all seriousness, I would say to destroy Bitcoin, you would have to destroy the faith of Bitcoin. So I think if...

• 15:54Jack Selby?

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• 16:17Graham Stephan?

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• 16:33Jack Selby?

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• 17:09Graham Stephan?

  I would say to destroy Bitcoin, you would have to destroy the faith of Bitcoin. So I think if Satoshi somehow dumped on the market, everyone would lose faith in that. Or I think like a huge solar flare that somehow takes out networks.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Okay, not bad. So we can't do Satoshi, right? Cause like he's gone, he's never coming back and we can't invoke him to come back.

• 17:33Jack Selby?

  How do you know he's gone?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Because he would have come back at this point if he was like incentivized financially. And Bitcoin is worth hundreds of billions of dollars. At no point in time is, is there a person that's like, I'm gonna wait. I have a couple hundred billion dollars now. I'm gonna wait until it hits a trillion or whatever it is.

• 17:50Jack Selby?

  And you can see wallets, that's how you know?

• 17:52Speaker 01

  You can see it, yeah. His coins have not moved since.

• 17:54Jack Selby?

  It's his coins.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's in his wallet.

• 17:56Graham Stephan?

  How many coins does he have?

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Wasn't it like a million, roughly a million coins, yeah.

• 18:01Jack Selby?

  So what's the value of that?

• 18:02Graham Stephan?

  It was like a hundred and twenty eight billion dollars.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's like one of the top five.

• 18:07Jack Selby?

  And you've never seen that is his wallet transact anything?

• 18:10Speaker 01

  It's never moved and it never will.

• 18:12Graham Stephan?

  It hasn't moved since when? It was like 2000?

• 18:14Speaker 01

  I wanna say 2011, but I might be wrong, yeah, something like that.

• 18:17Jack Selby?

  So are people speculating that he's passed away, that he's gone?

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Most likely he's passed away, yeah. The people who think he was, but the Bitcoin community doesn't really like to talk about who Satoshi is. Because that's an attack vector, right? Cause if you figure out who that person is or who that group was, you can attack their character. It's a vulnerability.

• 18:32Graham Stephan?

  It's interesting, Michael Saylor has been asked, who is Satoshi Nakamoto?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  He gets mad.

• 18:36Graham Stephan?

  And yeah, he just like, it like, it triggers him, like he does not wanna answer it.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:41Graham Stephan?

  And he gets like visibly upset.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, he calls it the immaculate conception of Bitcoin, right? Because it's like, no one knows who gave birth to this thing. And it's smart, like we shouldn't really try to figure that out.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  But the point is, is that the best way to really attack Bitcoin is not a solar flare. We can't induce a solar flare, we can't get Satoshi to spend his coins. The best way to do it is to destroy it from within. Okay, so right now in Bitcoin, there's five pillars of power that make it decentralized. Users, nodes.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Businesses, the miners and the developers. Okay, so like a lot of criticism that you hear people that don't understand Bitcoin, they'll be like, well, how do you know it's 21 million? Like, what if they like write in the code and they change it to like 40 million just to give themselves some more? And it's like, they could do that, but they wouldn't be able to get that through without the majority consensus, right? Like, everyone would have to agree that it's in their economic interest to do that. That's what makes Bitcoin so cool is the game theory aspect of it. So it's, the fundamental rules of Bitcoin have never been changed. But if you were like a rogue nation or a government and you wanted to destroy Bitcoin because you're like, hey, this Bitcoin thing looks cool, like, how would I control it?

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Well, I would figure out who the developers are, and I might offer them like a salary, like 20 or 30 million dollars a year. And I would tell them, I want you to make certain propositions in the software that changes the core aspect of what Bitcoin is. And I would put out a huge propaganda campaign. It's like, what is Bitcoin? Is it really gold? Is it really digital gold? Is it really money? Or is it a database of all sorts of immutable information, right? So here's specifically what I'm talking about, this kind of gets nerdy. But there is this feature inside of Bitcoin called the op return feature, op underscore return. And that feature has an 80 byte limit, meaning like that's the storage capacity of it. It's very small.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  It's about the size of a tweet. You can attach certain random points of data, like metadata, or some kind of proof, or some kind of message. Fun fact, in 2017, during the block wars, the core development team, which runs the Bitcoin software, these guys are like the smartest, like nerdiest people, right? They, they do not like having a debate with people. So they shut people down, they censored people. And so the big blockers, the people who wanted Bitcoin to become a currency, they made a decentralized Twitter.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Through this op return mechanism. And the way it worked is you could send a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a Bitcoin from your own wallet back to your own wallet. So you sent the money back to yourself and it cost you like a fraction of a penny. But in that transaction, you embedded a small tweet. And somebody made that into a website. It was like a decentralized immutable.

• 21:33Jack Selby?

  A small tweet into that data.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Into that data, yes, a text, a piece of text.

• 21:36Jack Selby?

  Basically.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Right. And so they recreated a decentralized immutable Twitter on the blockchain. That's how it was used. But again, it has that limit of 80 bytes. Actually, I brought a cool thing to show you what that looks like. So here is an image of an 80 byte sized image. Can you tell what that is?

• 21:59Jack Selby?

  No.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  You can't really tell what that is.

• 22:01Jack Selby?

  No.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  That looks like Trump. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web. Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration blog. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses setup required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 22:29Graham Stephan?

  It does kinda, I could see it. The suit, the blue suit and the hair.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Good job. That is actually, it is, it is, it is. It is.

• 22:36Jack Selby?

  Wow.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Did you figure that out?

• 22:37Jack Selby?

  I had no idea, actually.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  But it's hard to see.

• 22:40Graham Stephan?

  Holy crap.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  It's really hard to see, right?

• 22:43Graham Stephan?

  Mm hmm. That was good, Jack.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  A good job.

• 22:45Graham Stephan?

  Better eyes than I do.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Okay, so, so right now, the fundamental disconnect in the core development team is that they want to upgrade Bitcoin to remove the limit of the op return, right? They want to get rid of the 80 byte limit. What does that mean? That means that within a transaction, people will be able to include images and videos up to four megabytes in size. So now that image that looks like nothing to most people, unless you're a, an autist like Jack, uh, that's the real image.

• 23:19Graham Stephan?

  Wow.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Right? That's, that's the Trump image. Okay, but that's like a good example.

• 23:25Graham Stephan?

  What's the benefit of doing that, though?

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Well, the benefit is now you can essentially have programmable money, right? Like, you can have Bitcoin that's somewhat programmable. You could have NFTs on it. You can do a lot of, like, more advanced things.

• 23:39Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Is sort of like what they're saying.

• 23:41Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  But the Bitcoin community disagrees, and they're like, "This is the worst thing we can do." Because, imagine, you're essentially bloating now the software. Now, the whole ecosystem with BS, right? Like, with images. And imagine if I was like a pizza file person, right? Wanted to send illegal images or videos to somebody. And they didn't want to be stopped, they didn't want to be censored. They could now use Bitcoin and attach an image or a video that's illegal to transmit into this transaction, right? So if I were a government, I might want to regulate that. I might be like, "Hey, all these nodes that are handling all these transactions?

• 24:24Speaker 01

  You guys are transporting and transferring all these illegal images."

• 24:28Graham Stephan?

  But here's the thing, wouldn't that all be on the blockchain? And then eventually, if that were ever to be cashed out, you could trace it.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 24:37Graham Stephan?

  And so the person who cashes out five transactions down the line 10 years later, they're gonna get caught.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  It's not about who cashes out. It's about you transmitting things that are not necessarily something you agree with transmitting. You have no control over this, because they remove that limit.

• 24:51Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  But their argument is like, "Yeah, but you'll be able to do, like, NFTs on it." And people like Michael Saylor, and people like myself, investors, were like, "I'm buying Bitcoin because it's the best place to preserve my economic energy, right? It's like the best place for me to put my time. And I don't want Bitcoin to be graffitied over with data." Bitcoin is not meant to be non-economic data. It's purely for economic information, not NFTs and videos and pictures, right? So there's a big divide in the community right now. And the core development team, they're proposing that this change goes through. They want to get rid of this limit. The people on the opposite side, the people who oppose it, not that you need to know this, but it's the NOTS development team.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  And there's this guy, I think his name is Luke Dash Jr., which a lot of people don't like, but he's like, let's just keep it as is. And a lot of investors are like, let's not change anything. Bitcoin's not broken. Let's not upgrade it. Let's not do anything. So the most likely outcome that will happen in October, this is, this is, this upgrade's gonna happen in October, is that there will be no upgrade. So the nodes and the miners, they're not going to upgrade their software to software 30. They're gonna keep it at 29. That's most likely what's gonna happen. So only people like Michael Saylor really understand what's happening, but I think in the next few weeks, there's gonna be a huge wealth transfer.

• 26:10Jack Selby?

  So from a 30,000-foot view, what is your strongest argument for Bitcoin and against Bitcoin?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  What is the strongest argument for Bitcoin? Oh, man.

• 26:19Jack Selby?

  If you were to pitch me,

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:20Jack Selby?

  I don't have very much Bitcoin.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 26:22Jack Selby?

  Maybe like 1% of my portfolio is Bitcoin in my portfolio? It's not that big, guys. But like, actually, let me say-

• 26:28Speaker 01

  It is actually really big.

• 26:29Jack Selby?

  It's, it's half a percent in Bitcoin, I think.

• 26:32Graham Stephan?

  Pretend he is Alex.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 26:34Graham Stephan?

  Pitch Alex on Bitcoin. He doesn't own anything.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 26:38Graham Stephan?

  And we've always joked, Alex, if you, if you're watching this, whatever Alex buys-

• 26:41Speaker 01

  We're out.

• 26:42Graham Stephan?

  That's the theme.

• 26:43Jack Selby?

  Alex is our old producer, for those that aren't aware.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Hey, Alex. I love Alex. So this is borrowed directly from Jeff Booth. This is not my thing, but Jeff Booth says something really, really profound. So he says that the natural state of the world and the economy is deflationary. Do you understand what that means?

• 27:03Jack Selby?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, stuff goes down in prices.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Stuff goes down in price. Like, if you were to just have a fixed supply of money, like, let's say I had a hypothetical $100 bill, I don't have one to show you, but like, I laid it out and I was like, this is the world's money. Like, it's $100, there's never gonna be more of it. So naturally, the price of everything in that world would always go down forever. It wouldn't go up, because as we get better at producing stuff, as we get more efficient, we invent better technologies, the price goes down, right? But for some reason, we don't find ourselves living in that world. We live in a world where prices of everything goes up forever, right? That's counterintuitive to how the universe should work. Why?

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Well, it's because the government has this special ability to make more than just this $100, right? So now, if we duplicate that $100, the price of everything now is essentially doubled because it costs twice as much to buy that same amount of stuff. Because the amount of stuff didn't double, it was the amount of paper that doubled, right? With me so far?

• 28:05Jack Selby?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Okay, so now, that money, that excess piece of paper, all of that economic energy, it needs to go somewhere to maintain and preserve its value. So that's when we hear, "Oh, did you hear stocks went up to an all-time high? And gold reached an all-time high, real estate reached an all-time high."

• 28:24Speaker 01

  It's because the amount of money keeps increasing, and it's always trying to find a place to go to preserve its value, right?

• 28:32Jack Selby?

  So it's basically like, the actual value of something doesn't necessarily, the value of an asset doesn't necessarily increase over time, but the amount of dollars that it takes to purchase that does increase.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Exactly, right, so when you compare that asset to a benchmark like the dollar, it looks like that thing went up in price, right? You're like, "Oh, you know, gold went up, or real estate went up, and now it costs more dollars." That's how we visualize it. But then, if you were to take all of those things, right? And compare it against Bitcoin, then literally, all of those assets are also deflationary against Bitcoin. Like, take real estate, for example. A couple of years ago, when Bitcoin was at, what, 20,000? It took 20 Bitcoin to buy a house. Now, it's like 4 Bitcoin, like a little over 4 to buy a house. And it'll continue to be lower and lower and lower.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Right, it'll take less and less Bitcoin. So all assets are being demonetized against a money that is fixed. It is the only thing that exists in this world. That is stationary, that is fixed, a true money. And so through the lens and through the perspective of Bitcoin, everything is going down against it.

• 29:52Jack Selby?

  So I have a couple of questions about that then. What is the difference then between like Bitcoin and gold or Bitcoin and silver? Or raw materials that there is a fixed amount of?

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:01Jack Selby?

  You could take the same exact example for gold.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:03Jack Selby?

  It's like, okay, with this much gold right now, you could buy like a crazy mansion probably, or a really nice house.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 30:10Jack Selby?

  You know, with this much gold back in the day, you could have bought more.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, gold has certain qualities that are not quite on par to Bitcoin. And also there's not an exact finite amount of gold. There's also an inflation to gold as we discover and as we dig up more of it. I mean, we can find one on a meteorite tomorrow for all we know. So like gold is not necessarily finite.

• 30:32Graham Stephan?

  It's funny you say that because we just had R.J. Midi on the podcast and he said he bought into a penny stock where apparently they owned the rights to an asteroid.

• 30:42Jack Selby?

  That is made of gold.

• 30:43Graham Stephan?

  Full of gold, that they're gonna find a way to mine.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:47Graham Stephan?

  And I'm like, dude, you're not gonna.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  But imagine if that were to happen, like what would happen?

• 30:52Jack Selby?

  It would decrease the value of gold.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Right. The deflation would, or the inflation of gold would increase and therefore the value would be suppressed.

• 30:59Graham Stephan?

  You know, what's funny is that they found a way to make gold. Just like you could make a diamond in a lab, like a lab grown diamond.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  They figured out alchemy?

• 31:08Graham Stephan?

  Yes.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  How?

• 31:09Graham Stephan?

  They found a way to make gold. The problem, however, because this was a big discovery, is that.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  It costs more to make the gold than the gold is worth, right?

• 31:17Graham Stephan?

  Yes, but the other is that the gold was very unstable. And so they were only able to make the gold appear for a short amount of time before it disappeared.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:26Graham Stephan?

  But the fact is, there is a possibility. Jack thinks I'm joking, I'm not joking.

• 31:30Jack Selby?

  I don't think you're joking.

• 31:31Graham Stephan?

  Look it up, look it up.

• 31:33Jack Selby?

  Where's it going if it's disappearing? It's just going away.

• 31:35Graham Stephan?

  It's like poof.

• 31:37Graham Stephan?

  It's like, it was unstable enough to be a solid form for longer than however many, like a fraction of a second or whatever.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:45Graham Stephan?

  Point being is that they could find a way just to manufacture gold and have synthetic gold that would be identical to the real thing at some point in the future.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  No, I believe it. Yeah, I believe we will have the technology someday to make and reproduce gold on some affordable economic level. We can't yet. But maybe in the future we could. But Bitcoin is programmed to be fixed forever.

• 32:07Jack Selby?

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• 32:34Jack Selby?

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• 33:04Graham Stephan?

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• 33:08Jack Selby?

  So then what should the average person do with this information? If the natural state of the economy is supposed to be deflationary, things are supposed to get cheaper as time goes on. But because we're working off the US dollar, which we could just print more of, it's costing more dollars to buy goods and services. If someone has this information, what should they be doing with their money?

• 33:26Speaker 01

  I think it depends contextually, like what that person's situation is. But like for me, I've diversified enough to where if all of this is wrong and all of this is crazy, I should still be okay. But for me, Bitcoin is a roughly 30%, 30 to 35% of my net worth. So it's kind of high for most people, but it's still not crazy for most Bitcoin people. That's pretty conservative, if anything. So that's just my approach to it. But it's funny, because like when I look at crypto, I feel like it's such an appealing industry for a lot of people because there's this promise of like, get rich quick. It's like a thousandfold of your money. And what I find really interesting is that people make a decision that sounds intuitive, but it's completely wrong. Like, for example,

• 34:12Speaker 01

  I see a lot of people that are like, oh, I think XRP, let's just use that for example, is gonna go to a thousand dollars, right? It's like, once you've convinced yourself that it's gonna go to the moon like that, you've kind of already lost. And at that point, when people have convinced themselves it has the chance to go a thousand X, they put most of their money into it, which is actually completely counterintuitive. What instead you should be doing is allocating a very small amount to a conviction like that, right? It makes sense, because then you work backwards. You say, okay, if I think this thing's gonna 1,000 X, I'm not gonna mortgage my house and then put everything into it. I'm gonna instead work backwards and say, like, let's say I put in $10,000, and at a thousand X's, then I end up with, what, a million, right?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Cool, now I made a lot of money. But if you sell your house, so the equity in your house, and let's say you're like, I'm gonna go all in, and I'm gonna put in 100,000, because I know it's gonna 1,000 X. Okay, fine. But the difference between you being right in that scenario is the difference between making a million dollars, which is still nice, and making 10 million dollars. There is a difference there, for sure. But the pain between having a million and having 10 million is way less than the pain of being completely wrong and losing your house. Does that make sense?

• 35:29Graham Stephan?

  That does make sense.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  So if you really believe this thing's gonna 1,000 X, don't put your entire life savings into it. Put in a smaller amount. Does that make sense?

• 35:38Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, I liked Alex Becker, uh, his approach. He made a video a while back when we were talking a few months ago with Ethereum.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:46Graham Stephan?

  And Ethereum, at the time, I think it was like $1,500. This is recently, when everything kind of fell. And he says, guys, I think there's a 50/50 chance you're gonna lose everything, that Ethereum's gonna go from 1,500, it's, you're gonna lose all of your money.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:59Graham Stephan?

  But I think there's a 50% chance it's gonna go to 6,000.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:04Graham Stephan?

  And so that's an asymmetric reward.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:07Graham Stephan?

  Risk versus reward, that, hey, you could, it's a 50/50, you lose, but in the other 50%, you could 3X your investment.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:15Graham Stephan?

  And I thought, you know what, that's, it's a great phrasing.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:18Graham Stephan?

  And I invested an amount where I'm prepared for that 50%.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 36:21Graham Stephan?

  And I bought in at 1,500 bucks.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  It's all risk management.

• 36:24Graham Stephan?

  And now it's 4,200.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  That's, that's exactly a great point that you brought up. It's all risk management. So if you see an asymmetric bet, that's exactly what I'm describing. Don't put your entire life savings into it. Just put enough to where if you lose it, it's not a big deal. And if you make it, it's still a lot of money. That's essentially a roundabout way of saying that.

• 36:40Graham Stephan?

  So how are you investing your money now? If you have 30 to 35% in Bitcoin, what is the other 65% looking like?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  It's real estate, cash, stocks, and miscellaneous things.

• 36:52Graham Stephan?

  And what's the best investment you've ever made?

• 36:54Speaker 01

  The best investment, definitely by far Bitcoin, by far.

• 36:57Graham Stephan?

  Really?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:58Graham Stephan?

  And it's not even close?

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Not even close.

• 37:01Graham Stephan?

  What's the worst investment you've ever made?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Oh, worst investment?

• 37:05Graham Stephan?

  The drone?

• 37:06Speaker 01

  I mean, that's not an investment. It's like a consumer thing. I would say probably so far, honestly, out of my bucket, real estate.

• 37:12Graham Stephan?

  Really?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:14Graham Stephan?

  But have you made money in real estate?

• 37:15Speaker 01

  I still made money, but it wasn't as much money as I could have made if I had bought literally anything else. It was like the S and P 500 or anything else.

• 37:23Graham Stephan?

  NFTs.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  That's not an investment. I never considered that an investment. I considered it as like a marketing expense for YouTube. But Graham, you buy a lot of Ethereum, right?

• 37:34Graham Stephan?

  Yes and no. I bought at 1500 and I've not touched it since then. I've not added on to it. I've not, yeah, I've just, I still have that and it's up almost 200%.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  What's your, what's your like theory behind why Ethereum will be valuable someday?

• 37:48Graham Stephan?

  I think the fact that Bitcoin is as valuable, I just, it's a pure speculation bet that some of that's going to funnel into Ethereum.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  That's it? It's just like, it's like a second place thing?

• 37:57Graham Stephan?

  Sure. Yeah. Like, yeah. But then again, when you look at Ethereum in comparison to my entire portfolio, I think it's like 0.1%.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 38:07Graham Stephan?

  So it really, I don't care. If it, if it goes back down to 1500, I don't care. This sounds so out of touch, so out of touch. There was a Rolex Oyster Quartz that I wanted and it was $12,500. And I thought I would invest in Ethereum to pay for the watch.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 38:26Graham Stephan?

  And I was going to sell it when it hit like 20,000 in profit to be able to cash out, pay the tax, and that way I get a free watch. And I've just kept it. And now I'm up quite a bit. So I got a free watch times many times over from that investment. That that was all it is. It was it was the same thing as me going to a casino, except it was that 50 50 risk reward.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:46Graham Stephan?

  Where I was like, all right, 50% chance I lose it, or 50% chance I get three X and just buy the watch that I wanted.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Right, but you're still holding on to it.

• 38:53Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, I haven't sold it.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Okay. Do you buy any Ethereum, Jack?

• 38:56Jack Selby?

  I don't think I have any Ethereum. I might have like, like, like a couple grand.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 39:01Jack Selby?

  In Ethereum, five grand in it.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 39:03Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  From my understanding, and and like, this is again, that goes back to like, risk versus reward management is, uh, I think Tom Lee from Fundstrat, I don't know if you guys had him on yet.

• 39:13Graham Stephan?

  No.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Um, and, uh, I guess, uh, Larry Fink from BlackRock. This is like their thesis for why Ethereum could someday be like the thing. But here's why I could never like, put in a ton of money. So so here's kind of how it looks for Ethereum. So Ethereum is supposed to be the blockchain that will be the rails for the tokenization of a lot of assets across the world, including physical assets like watches, art, and real estate and things like that. So we're going to digitize and bring things like real estate onto the blockchain, Ethereum's blockchain. So like, for example, JP Morgan, they tokenized, what is it? Uh, treasury bonds. So they actually tokenized treasury bonds on Ethereum. And then BlackRock tokenized, uh, money market funds

• 39:58Speaker 01

  on Ethereum's blockchain. And I thought that was really kind of interesting because I could imagine a world where, for example, like, let's say I'm an investor and I want to buy a REIT, right? But I don't want like a specific REIT that I see in as an ETF. Instead, I'm like, you know, I love Hawaii and I love this tree, this street or this area, like this, this, this area called Lanikai, right? I think it's gonna be a strategic street for real estate. So I want specifically this section or specifically that house. And maybe that corporation or that owner could issue some percentage of that house, like, let's say, like, they issue 50% or 10% or whatever it is. So that on my app, on my brokerage app, I could be like, you know what? Instead of buying an ETF that's a REIT, I could buy this area like Summerlin or like Henderson

• 40:42Speaker 01

  or this specific street. So you're going to get so granular because of this tokenization and it's going to be accessible to everyone. And I think it's a possible reality that that happens. So, and that's the same thing for watches, maybe cars. It's like, well, you know what? I want this like $20 million Ferrari collection from Hamilton, the guy you had on, right? And, but I can't afford a Ferrari. So maybe that guy issues some percentage equity in his collection on the blockchain. Maybe that's Ethereum. Does that make sense? Yeah. So now I could buy it in my brokerage app. Like that's gonna happen. That's what BlackRock sees as gonna happen. And presuming that it's going to be on Ethereum's blockchain, that's when you get all the gas fees and all the burning things, burning mechanisms.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  And that's when Ethereum could become deflationary. And maybe that's how it becomes valuable. But the point I'm trying to make is like creating this like universe, which might happen someday is these are assumptions of assumptions of assumptions on assumptions, right? Like we are making so many assumptions about it that like, is it going to be this way? Will it actually be Ethereum or will it be Solana or will it be Cardano or something else? We don't know. And so the more assumptions there are baked in, the more you could assume the price will go up. Like in Bitcoin's case, the difference between Bitcoin at a dollar and a thousand, there's far more assumptions that were in place than there are from 100,000 to a million. Like that's only now a 10x.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  And that's because so many of Bitcoin's early assumptions, like adoption by Wall Street and the securitization with ETFs and all these things, like they've happened. Adoption by corporations, adoptions by countries, like these are all things that have happened already. So now the jump between 100,000 to a million is only 10x. Like it's still a lot of money, but it's nowhere near the jump between a dollar to a thousand dollars. That's a thousand x because less assumptions had come true.

• 42:36Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 43:01Graham Stephan?

  What has to happen for Bitcoin to hit a million dollars?

• 43:04Speaker 01

  We talk about like these cycles, like these mega-cycles that Bitcoin goes through. I don't know if we'll see another huge one. I think it'll be a slow, and by slow, I mean like still like 20 to 30% a year, melt up to a million from here on until like 2030 or whatever the year is gonna be. Like, nothing has to change. Just keeps on going at the same rate that it is. You take all the crazy assumptions out of it, I still think it ends up at a million. Like, inevitably.

• 43:29Graham Stephan?

  So isn't Bitcoin about 1/10th the market cap currently of gold?

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, about 1/13th or so, yeah.

• 43:35Graham Stephan?

  I can't help but think that it has to be at some point 1/3 of gold, or half.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  I think so too. I think it's inevitable, yeah.

• 43:46Graham Stephan?

  But then I can't help but think, if I think that way, it has to be priced in.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:50Graham Stephan?

  Like, this isn't like some mysterious, sort of like, no one's ever thought of that before. People are paying the price today with everything currently priced in, as to what they believe is going to happen with it.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Do you remember Chris Camillo from Dumb Money?

• 44:04Graham Stephan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  I really like his thesis on Bitcoin. Like, he does not care about Bitcoin. He's like, "I'm just a pure, like, social..." What is this thing?

• 44:10Graham Stephan?

  Social arb.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Social arb, right. Social arbitrage. And his entire thesis is really simple. It's just a reshuffling of monetary assets from things like gold and real estate and all the things that we will inherit from our parents and our grandparents. And it's like, "Well, thanks for the $2 million house. I can't afford the property taxes on this thing. I'm gonna sell that. And gold, thanks, but I don't really get gold. It's not part of my generation. I'm gonna sell that. I'm gonna put some of it in Bitcoin. I'm not gonna put all of it, maybe, but some of it." And it's just like a simple reshuffling of assets and money from all of those back into Bitcoin. And a little bit from each little bucket, from, you know, bonds, from gold, from watches, from cars, from real estate, they might not be able to afford to keep up with.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  And it goes into Bitcoin. And that's like a slow melt-up to a million.

• 44:58Graham Stephan?

  Gold is becoming cooler now.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  It is, yeah, that's true.

• 45:01Graham Stephan?

  That's the other thing, is that I'm seeing a lot of people, you know, our own age, now interested in gold, just for the fact that it's gone up in price. They don't give a... About it though, but they just know, hey, it was, you know, a thousand bucks five years ago and now it's, you know, almost 4,000 an ounce. It just on the basis of that, it makes money. I like it now.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:21Graham Stephan?

  And so gold is coming back in style.

• 45:25Graham Stephan?

  Whereas before it was kind of unpopular, but it does seem like overall people are more likely to buy Bitcoin who are younger than gold.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 45:33Graham Stephan?

  If they had to choose between the two.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  I agree. I don't think I'm that particularly old, but I miss the gold train. Like I don't own any gold. I wish I did, but I don't have any. And I imagine the younger generation is totally out of it too. Maybe they're a little more in tune with it now that you said the price has gone up, but I don't own any gold at all.

• 45:49Graham Stephan?

  What do you think about altcoins?

• 45:51Speaker 01

  I think there's a lot of interesting projects. I'm just not into any of them. I think they're a distraction for the most part. I'm just focused on Bitcoin mostly. And even Ethereum, I'm like, I don't know. Like all those assumptions we talked about, they might come true over time, but I'm not interested in venturing beyond it.

• 46:07Graham Stephan?

  You know, it's going to be really interesting. At some point they're going to do an ETF of the top 10 crypto holdings.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  I think so, for sure.

• 46:12Graham Stephan?

  Just like the S and P 500.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 46:14Graham Stephan?

  Except of that.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:16Graham Stephan?

  That is going to be very interesting and I think that is going to spur the market because I would place, let's just say I have 5% of my portfolio in iBit.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:24Graham Stephan?

  But then they offer an ETF of the top 10.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:28Graham Stephan?

  Oh man, I would probably put a percent or two into that.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:33Graham Stephan?

  I think that that is a huge opportunity because there's a lot of projects out there that are interesting that I would never invest a dollar into on their own, but I would into an ETF. What's also interesting is that years ago I did this whole analysis on the top 10 cryptocurrencies by year, going back to like 2015. And the consensus was that really almost all of the profits in cryptocurrency came from Bitcoin and Ethereum and that the chance of making money on anything else was pretty much like a moonshot. It was like a one in a hundred chance. And so even if you invest in a hundred different projects, you're going to like break even because 99% of them are going to lose money, but that

• 47:18Graham Stephan?

  one is going to have a hundred extra turn. And so it's just going to balance out between how much you make and lose. But Overall, it was really just the majority of profits came from Bitcoin Ethereum and that's it.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, Europe actually had a product, an ETF that combined the top 10 cryptos for a long time now. But I imagine that if it came in the US, depending on how it was like allocated, if it was weight-based, which I'm guessing it would be, like 80% Bitcoin, 10% Ethereum, whatever it would be. Um, I think it would be a really interesting product, but I also think it would be kind of like a Trojan horse. I think companies like BlackRock would make a ton of money on the expense ratios and the management fees. But I think from a performance perspective, they would just be diluting it. Like, it's not worth it. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be buying it, but I can see how it's interesting too.

• 48:00Graham Stephan?

  It's also interesting to see how many brokerage coins are going up in price. Like the BNB?

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:07Graham Stephan?

  A thousand dollars?

• 48:09Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 48:10Graham Stephan?

  Wild.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not messing with any of it, man. I'm just keeping it really simple.

• 48:14Graham Stephan?

  Good. Same. I, I just do iBit.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:16Graham Stephan?

  It's so easy for me to do iBit in a stock account and then I don't have to worry about self-custody.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:23Graham Stephan?

  Losing access. If you forget the, the password. It's like, I hate all of that. I like the simplicity of iBit. And I would, and all I care about anyway is the investment purpose of it.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  The downside of iBit though, is that the year-to-date performance is, there's a delta of like 6%, which is pretty significant. Like, if you look at Bitcoin's year-to-date performance, it's 6 or 7% higher than iBits. And I'm trying to figure out why there's such a big delta. Like, that's a big delta. I know the expense ratio plays a small part of that.

• 48:55Graham Stephan?

  Very small, but the reason is that the iBit trades on a price that doesn't, isn't one-to-one with Bitcoin. So if everyone's buying an iBit, there's gonna be a premium, the, the stock's gonna trade at a higher price than the underlying coin itself, because there's more demand.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:11Graham Stephan?

  But that also might be, there could be at some point, it trades less than the underlying asset. And there might be an opportunity to arbitrage that, if that ever were to happen. But yeah, right now, there's so much demand, it's trading at a premium.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, that's, that's a, that's a lot of premium to give up though. 6 to 7%? Like, imagine if it's 6 to 7% every year, compounded over like 20 years. Like, that's huge. Isn't that a huge argument for self-custoding it?

• 49:36Graham Stephan?

  Could be, but then you're also paying quite a big spread on a place like Coinbase. Like, I remember seeing it recently. Even, uh, Robinhood is actually one of the cheapest places to buy Bitcoin. It was trading at 1.165. And if I wanna buy it, I have to pay like 1.17. And if I wanna sell it, I sell it for like 1.15. And that's a Robinhood makes their money on that spread. But that's a pretty big spread.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  It is, but I don't think it's-

• 50:02Graham Stephan?

  That's 1% right there to buy or sell.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  For sure. But like 1% compared to 6 or 7%, that's still not-

• 50:10Graham Stephan?

  Could be too early to tell, too. I'd like to see that over five or 10 years.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  That's true. That's true. We should look at it from a five to 10-

• 50:15Graham Stephan?

  It's a bit new.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:16Graham Stephan?

  But yeah, sure. Up until this point, it depends if you care about buying the Bitcoin itself. Like, what are the advantages of actually buying Bitcoin and custoding it yourself?

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Well, that, those coins can't be re-hypothecated. They can't be lent against by someone else. If something were to happen, you know you have control, full control over your coins. If an exchange collapses, you have to rely on the government to pay you back, and that sometimes takes forever. There's a lot of cool benefits to it.

• 50:43Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. What about NFTs?

• 50:45Speaker 01

  What about them?

• 50:46Graham Stephan?

  What happened to NFTs?

• 50:48Speaker 01

  I don't know, man. They, they just, the fad died out, right? The whole, uh, I remember talking about it on my YouTube channel. I'm like, you know when we hit a peak? When people are spending millions of dollars on pet rocks, like JPEGs of pet rocks, yeah.

• 51:00Graham Stephan?

  I remember those. You're going for $400,000.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 51:04Graham Stephan?

  And people were joking that you could just right-click on it and then like have the same thing. I never understood the NFT price.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  My theory behind why NFTs blew up is it was hugely a result of the government print. That's all it was. It was the PPP money. It was the stimulus packages. It was all of that stuff. Like, people didn't know what to do with their money. And it was just boredom from sitting at home. And I think that was that phenomenon. And I actually think NFTs will come back, but in a completely different way. Like, it's not gonna be, "Hey, look at my pet rock. It's worth millions of dollars." It'll be maybe more in the digitization of like, like events. Like, if you wanna get like some concert tickets or something, that'll be an NFT, you know? Or the, maybe depending on how they securitize real estate, maybe those will be some forms of NFTs. But I think they'll come back from a utility perspective, but I don't think they'll be the same as once, what they used to be.

• 51:54Graham Stephan?

  And what about CryptoPunks? Or CryptoKitties.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  I don't know anything about it.

• 51:59Graham Stephan?

  What happened to Bored Apes?

• 52:00Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea. I'm not following any of it. I know they're down like 90%.

• 52:06Graham Stephan?

  They're down a lot. CryptoPunks seem interesting to me.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, doesn't Chris Camillo own like a bunch of them?

• 52:13Graham Stephan?

  Dude, Chris, we were talking in like 2021. He was buying, I forget what it was, like these nuclear sheep. And he's like, if you buy these nuclear sheep, they give milk. And the milk you could use to then buy more.

• 52:33Graham Stephan?

  It sounds dumb. It's in a video. We have it in a video in a vlog. We're recording this. I didn't understand it, but you could like milk these sheep that give, and then use the milk to buy more nuclear sheep. And they're about to like spawn. You could breed these nuclear sheep to like, give like offspring. But then it's randomized to like one and it's.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 52:54Graham Stephan?

  And it reminds me a bit of like.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  That's like a game.

• 52:56Graham Stephan?

  Axie Infinity.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, yeah.

• 52:58Graham Stephan?

  A bit where people were making like thousands of dollars a month playing this game and then like breeding the birds or something. I don't.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Jack, do you play with this stuff? I don't know, man.

• 53:06Jack Selby?

  I do not play with this stuff. This is more up Graham's wheelhouse right there, breeding and playing with birds. Milking sheep.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  You should put that in the intro.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  I don't know. The only alts I have are just like the same ones I've always had. Ome and my NFTs, like the Spider-Man one. And I have no idea what, where they're at or what they're doing. They're still around. I still have them and.

• 53:28Graham Stephan?

  Would you sell them?

• 53:29Speaker 01

  I'd totally sell them. Yeah, like I've forgotten about them, but if they're ever worth anything, maybe I'll come back to it someday. Maybe they'll actually return. I don't know, but they're still around. I still have all of them. I never sold them.

• 53:40Graham Stephan?

  What's crazy is that, you know, we used to have this vlog channel.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:45Graham Stephan?

  Graham, Stephan After Hours and all the videos are still there. And we were covering a Logan Paul Box Break.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:53Graham Stephan?

  And Grant Navar purchased a pack of cards, I think for like $20,000, it's a first edition pack. But then in addition to that, Logan Paul was selling the NFTs of the Box Break.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:07Graham Stephan?

  All of them were sold out. And all the NFT was, was him pulling out a card and it was like a hollow. And he was selling these for like 18 to 50,000 dollars. He wasn't forcing anyone to buy them, but people were spending 35,000 dollars to get an NFT of just Logan Paul opening up the card and showing a hollow.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  You know what I think? If, if it ever comes back and is worth anything, my theory is that it'll be like 50 years from now. When we look back at these moments at our youth, we look back at these memories so fondly and we're like, remember when that was a thing? And we're all like crypto billionaires or Bitcoin billionaires, like I'd buy that again. Like that, I could see that.

• 54:50Graham Stephan?

  Pokemon cards?

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, it's like, like a nostalgia thing. Like, I could see it becoming a valuable thing when it becomes nostalgic. Like, right now, it's just too close to home. It just happened kind of recently. But I can imagine if like 50 years from now, we'll look back at it like, that was the first NFT ever, the Crypto Punk or like the Spider-Man or whatever it is. I could see that, kind of like Pokemon.

• 55:10Graham Stephan?

  I try to think of that all the time of what is going to be the nostalgia play today.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:15Graham Stephan?

  All the time, like the, the 2005 Ford GT.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:18Graham Stephan?

  Was a nostalgia play.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  It is.

• 55:20Graham Stephan?

  They used to trade it like 120 grand, they couldn't sell the cars. And now it's like, you, you get that car because that was the car you admired. Pokemon is a good example of that, too.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  But are you ever afraid that that's sort of such a moving target that beyond a certain generation, it's just, it's not a thing anymore?

• 55:36Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, of course. I, I like old 1920s cars are plummeting in value.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:42Graham Stephan?

  Because the audience for that is, they're passing away.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:44Graham Stephan?

  And no one, no one cares.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  That wasn't a part of their childhood, right?

• 55:47Graham Stephan?

  But the original iPhone in the original packaging is now selling for like 70,000 dollars.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:54Graham Stephan?

  Or the original iPod, things like this that were like revolutionary. Now, you go back and, and that was something recent. And I wonder, what is that today?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:03Graham Stephan?

  What's out there today? Cause there's something today that is going to be, oh my gosh, I, I could buy that right now and just keep it sealed and in 20 years, I'm going to make a fortune.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, yeah. That, that's the Chris Camillo investing, right? It's a social arb thing. And, but it kind of also makes you think the other way, like, when is the top? Is it when I'm 90? Is it like, well, our generation is the last one that remembers these NFTs, that remembers these Pokemon cards, that remembers the GT 40? I don't know.

• 56:31Graham Stephan?

  But what are you nostalgic about today? That's what I think.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  For me, it's Pokemon cards still. I don't think anything tops that.

• 56:36Graham Stephan?

  And now they're back up in price.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Are they?

• 56:39Graham Stephan?

  Pokemon, my gosh, went through its craze.

• 56:42Jack Selby?

  Yeah, I think we're getting wildly derailed from it.

• 56:45Graham Stephan?

  People love this. People love this dude, and we'll get back.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  I know you've checked out.

• 56:49Jack Selby?

  I've completely checked out.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  I know, I could tell.

• 56:51Graham Stephan?

  Pokemon went up.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:52Graham Stephan?

  Crashed, went up now even higher.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  I think the new sets have gone up.

• 56:56Graham Stephan?

  Nope.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Right? No?

• 56:57Graham Stephan?

  Nope. The Charizard is now selling for like $450,000 again.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Really?

• 57:01Graham Stephan?

  First edition Shadowless Charizard.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Wow, I'm rich again.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  I still have my base set.

• 57:07Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Graham Stephan?

  Jack needs, uh, what is it, what is it below the screen here? The Subway servers to keep them engaged?

• 57:14Jack Selby?

  Okay.

• 57:16Graham Stephan?

  He's not, yeah, we could just talk about this, but.

• 57:19Jack Selby?

  You make a lot of interesting videos about global affairs.

• 57:22Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 57:23Jack Selby?

  The Russian economy, like China economy, Japanese economy. What would you say are like the top competitors of the US economy? Do you think that the US economy is falling from grace? And that, and what are your predictions for the US economy over the next like decade or so?

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the biggest competitor is definitely China. I actually went down this deep rabbit hole of like looking on YouTube of technologies and cars that China's coming out with. Dude, it's unreal. Some of the car brands and the features and the price. Like, it's no wonder that it's not allowed to sell these products in the US because none of our companies would compete or be able to hold a candle to these products. They are so much more advanced. Like Xiaomi released a phone that was kind of a carbon copy of the 17 Max Pro that just came out. And they actually called it the 17 Max Pro, I think, like it was nearly an identical name. But I watched a review of that phone.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Dude, it is legitimately like better on every front. Like it has such cool features. And I'm like, dude, if these products were sold here in the US, none of our companies would keep up.

• 58:33Graham Stephan?

  Reminds me of the, uh, the sports car that they came out with.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:37Graham Stephan?

  The Doug Demuro review.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  I saw that.

• 58:39Graham Stephan?

  It has the $70,000.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Headlights of a McLaren and the body of the Persangue Ferrari. It's, it's crazy. And it has like 1,400 horsepower.

• 58:48Graham Stephan?

  If that were in the US, everybody would buy it. Like, I would gladly pay fifty thousand a Rasp.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:53Graham Stephan?

  It's just so unique and so cool.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  It's, yeah.

• 58:56Graham Stephan?

  Their technologies.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Yes. It's like a forty thousand dollar car. Dude, it's unbelievable.

• 59:01Jack Selby?

  Forty thousand dollars?

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Forty thousand dollar car. It's unbelievable. It has like four hundred fifty miles of range. Like, ridiculous. And so.

• 59:09Graham Stephan?

  But it makes you think, why can't we do that in the United States?

• 59:13Speaker 01

  You tell me, I don't know why.

• 59:14Graham Stephan?

  My understanding is that loose labor regulations, working conditions, things like this. And they don't quite have the guardrails in place for like the government like meddling with every little thing.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  True.

• 59:28Graham Stephan?

  That allows these companies to basically produce this for such a low cost.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:33Graham Stephan?

  I've also heard that they don't have the R and D. So they basically, we spend all of this money developing. Then China goes and looks at this, studies it and says, oh, okay, well, that's how you do it.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:45Graham Stephan?

  And then they could make it without any of the initial investment.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Right. That's, that's very true. Yeah. Combined with a low labor cost.

• 59:52Graham Stephan?

  Correct.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  And then you have a product that people actually buy.

• 59:54Graham Stephan?

  Right.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  If it was made here in the US, like, sure, we could make it, but it'd be like three hundred grand and nobody would buy it.

• 59:59Graham Stephan?

  Hmm.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  For sure. That's a huge part of it. But back to your original question is, I, I think it's separate. Like, from an investment perspective, I think the United States is still far and away the best country to live and make money in and invest in. But from a quality of life perspective, I think this is not the best country to live in.

• 1:00:19Jack Selby?

  What do you think is the best country to live in quality of life perspective?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  I think Switzerland is far better.

• 1:00:23Jack Selby?

  Interesting.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Hold on, let me, let me bring out, I think I have a chart here of, of the average life expectancy of people around the world. And we spend twice as much on healthcare in Switzerland, or I'm sorry, here in the US than Switzerland. And we are, on average. We have a much lower, uh, life expectancy age. Let me find this chart. Check this out.

• 1:00:46Jack Selby?

  I have a, I have a rant on this.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  So look at this. Do you see all that?

• 1:00:49Jack Selby?

  Geez.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Like, this is the United States, right? There's a dip with COVID, right? Makes sense, but that's a massive dip.

• 1:00:55Jack Selby?

  Wait, why did we dip with COVID so much more than, what is that?

• 1:00:59Graham Stephan?

  We, we have a higher rate of obesity.

• 1:01:01Jack Selby?

  And so we had more compromised individuals getting COVID, and so they were like,

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  I imagine that was a big part of it. Yeah, I imagine that's a big part of it.

• 1:01:07Graham Stephan?

  The other thing could be, in fairness.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 1:01:10Graham Stephan?

  We reported a lot of deaths as COVID.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Because hospitals were incentivized to report it, right?

• 1:01:16Graham Stephan?

  So that seems to me highly skewed.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  I think that's probably true too, but I think to your point, or what you said about, yeah, certain health conditions and pre-existing conditions, I think we're worse off.

• 1:01:29Graham Stephan?

  So I want to rant about this. This, this was really eye-opening to me. I went to the doctor for a checkup. I had not been in three years. And she ordered a blood test. And I wanted to do all these additional tests. And she says,

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:01:44Graham Stephan?

  I can't order those tests.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:46Graham Stephan?

  I said, why? She says, well, because you need, uh, symptoms.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:01:51Graham Stephan?

  To be able to order these tests.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  You need to be dying.

• 1:01:53Graham Stephan?

  And so she said, do you feel tired and lethargic?

• 1:01:58Graham Stephan?

  Sometimes. Okay, well, we could order that test.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:01Graham Stephan?

  Do you have, uh, you know, fogginess, uh, you know, brain fog? Sure. Okay, we could order that test. And she kind of goes down the list of these symptoms that, yeah, I, sometimes I wake up and I'm tired, sure. So we order these, these, but, but in total, it's like eight tests.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:18Graham Stephan?

  And they bill my insurance thirteen hundred dollars. And my copay is something like 10% of it. So I pay like a hundred and something dollars of it. But anyway, I get it back and it turns out that I have like high thyroid antibodies, which suggests either high stress, I'm overtraining, lack of sleep, could be any one of them. So I thought that was interesting. And then I ordered my own blood tests. And I paid out of pocket through a separate company. And they were charging like 500 bucks for like a hundred biomarkers. And I did that. And I got the results basically instantly, within a few days. And it turned out I had no idea that I have like high LDL cholesterol.

• 1:03:02Graham Stephan?

  My, my heart biomarkers were like really genetically high, giving me a predisposition for like heart disease and building up plaque in my arteries, even though I'm like active and healthy. It's just a genetic thing. I never would have found that out if I didn't test on my own. And I started making these changes in my life now. Now I have a whole stack of supplements that I take on a daily basis, morning and night. I've adjusted my diet a little bit and it's been about three weeks now and I feel so much better just doing that change. I never would have figured it out had I not done it myself. Like, but, but the whole healthcare system is just designed to treat the symptom.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Dude, I wish you had told me this before. When did you do all this?

• 1:03:44Graham Stephan?

  Three weeks, four weeks ago.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  I could have told you this because, okay, so Corey and I went to Thailand specifically for that reason, because we wanted to test everything about ourselves. And we went to this hospital, I forget the name of it, it was like Bumrun Grot or something like, I don't know how to pronounce it. And we go in and it's this like 10-story building, super high-end. There's like royalty there, I feel like, from the Middle East, just people of all sorts of walks of life, right? So we make an appointment, we get the executive package. Costs, costs like a thousand dollars almost. I want to pay, I paid like $1,200 maybe. So we go in there and they do like every test known to humankind, like everything.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  They do chest x-rays, they do like everything for your organs, they, they do a heart test, like they have you run on a thing, they, they monitor like everything. They have you pee, they have you poop in a cup, they take your blood. Dude, they do everything. And I got, I have like a 10-page report on everything on my body. And it turns out I have like fatty liver, which is a very common thing for Americans. But you're right, it's like you can't order these tests here in the US because you have to exhibit symptoms. And in, in that place where we were at, they just do the diagnosis. They don't do any kind of like treatment for it. And that's probably because they don't want to have a conflict of interest, maybe, I don't know. But the hospital doesn't treat against anything.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  It just purely is a diagnostic center. And they did just about like every test I could ever think of for a thousand dollars.

• 1:05:17Graham Stephan?

  How long did that take?

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  And it took three hours and I got the results within eight hours. No, dude, it's amazing. Like, so if you ever want to do that, I would highly recommend going to Thailand. Thailand.

• 1:05:30Graham Stephan?

  In Bangkok?

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  In Bangkok, yeah.

• 1:05:32Graham Stephan?

  Interesting.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Get the executive package. Corey got like everything.

• 1:05:35Graham Stephan?

  And how much was it?

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Thousand dollars.

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

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• 1:06:07Graham Stephan?

  That's not bad.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  No, it's amazing.

• 1:06:09Graham Stephan?

  I wish you had an option to opt out or like just some sort of like, some sort of health insurance that's just catastrophic over like $50,000. Because so far what I've done, I found it cheaper to just pay for everything out of pocket.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Graham Stephan?

  Like I'm buying prescriptions out of pocket. I'm going and just telling them I'll pay cash. I did a whole heart screening.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  It's cheaper oftentimes.

• 1:06:32Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. And I was asking like, okay, they asked me, do you want to go through insurance? And I was like, does insurance cover this? They're like, sometimes, but we're going to be booked a few weeks out. And I was like, can I just pay cash and come today? And she's like, can you come right now? And I was like, yeah. Okay, I paid 165 bucks, winning the same day I just left. Did it and got my results back in three days.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Does that ever make you wonder like as you get older, if you realize how corrupt and how unfair the healthcare industry is? Does that make you think outside of that and like, well, how many other things are not good for you? Like the food and that we eat and like everything about the quality of our life here in the US? Do you ever think about that?

• 1:07:12Graham Stephan?

  I saw, it was an Instagram post or like a TikTok that says like, You know when you're grown up, when you go to the grocery store and you realize that 90% of it is extremely unhealthy.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:24Graham Stephan?

  And now it's all I see. I walk in the grocery store and thinking, who would eat this?

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:28Graham Stephan?

  It's awful. Like, everything has a ton of added sugar. They had sugar, the amount of sugar in ketchup.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:35Graham Stephan?

  Is surprising. Like, sugar in that? Really? And then you start looking at the sugar content of everything. They put sugar in everything.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  High fructose corn syrup, yeah, in everything, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like the older I get, the more I become a conspiracy theorist about everything. Sound like that grumpy old guy that's just like, I don't trust anything. I don't trust anyone. I don't know if you're noticing that about yourself.

• 1:07:59Graham Stephan?

  No, it's just when it, when it comes to

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:08:02Graham Stephan?

  Government-running things.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  So everything.

• 1:08:08Graham Stephan?

  No, not necessarily. I mean, healthcare, I don't think that's a government-run thing. I think it's just the insurance companies that are just finding ways to gouge and, and a lot of that, it like, certain things are really run up by lawyers and like, insurance costs are high because it's so easy to litigate. And so, they have to be high because your chance of litigation is high.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:08:28Graham Stephan?

  Because lawyers are very quick to serve you with something.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree. I don't know.

• 1:08:35Jack Selby?

  I've definitely become a lot more skeptical of things.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:38Jack Selby?

  For sure. Everything. When I was a kid, I was extremely naive. And then you get burned a few times because you're naive.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Jack Selby?

  And then you just have to become selective with what you decide to trust in.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:46Jack Selby?

  Not trust. So.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  But I, I agree, yeah.

• 1:08:49Graham Stephan?

  And really quick, I just want to say, it is wild that we're almost at the end of the year, which means holidays are approaching. And for any of you who have hosted, you know that it could often be expensive and stressful. But it doesn't have to be that way, because your sponsor Wayfair helps you tackle everything you need in one place at prices that just make sense.

• 1:09:08Jack Selby?

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• 1:09:32Jack Selby?

  Turns out, all you need is a wreath and you no longer live in a frat house. I was really impressed. It was super affordable. It came extremely fast and honestly, the process could not have been easier.

• 1:09:40Graham Stephan?

  Wayfair makes holiday prep simple. You save money, you skip the stress, and you get everything you need delivered right to your door.

• 1:09:47Jack Selby?

  And when you knock out your shopping early, it frees up so much time to actually enjoy the holidays the way you should with your friends and family.

• 1:09:52Graham Stephan?

  So get organized, refresh, and get ready for the holidays for way less. Just head to wayfair.com right now to shop for all things home. Again, that is wayfair.com with the link down below in the description. Wayfair, every style, every home. And really quick, I just want to say that when Jack and I first started the Iced Coffee Hour, now over five years ago, we had to figure out everything ourselves, from the best cameras to use, the best editing equipment, how to get guests on. Every day was a brand new challenge. That's why if you're starting or running your own business, you know how valuable today's sponsor is, and that would be Shopify.

• 1:10:26Jack Selby?

  Shopify is basically your all-in-one business partner. They power millions of businesses worldwide, from major brands like Mattel and Jimm Shark to entrepreneurs just getting started. And here's a fun fact, if you've shopped online in the US, there's a really good chance it was actually through Shopify, because they power about 10% of all American e-commerce.

• 1:10:42Graham Stephan?

  What's really great about Shopify is that they give you access to a complete design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates to build a beautiful online store that perfectly matches your brand. There's no coding needed, and their AI tools even help you write product descriptions and enhance your product photos.

• 1:10:59Jack Selby?

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• 1:11:11Graham Stephan?

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• 1:11:16Jack Selby?

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• 1:11:28Graham Stephan?

  Thanks again to our sponsor Shopify, and now let's get back to the episode. Are you bullish or bearish for the US economy?

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  From an investment perspective, very bullish from a quality of life, and I don't think it'll be the best country to live in for the next 50 years. I don't think it'll be the safest. I don't think it'll be the highest quality of life or the longest lifespan.

• 1:11:46Graham Stephan?

  And you think Switzerland is the best?

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  I think Switzerland's far better, yeah, for sure.

• 1:11:49Graham Stephan?

  What about Japan?

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  Probably better, yeah. Probably better.

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:54Graham Stephan?

  I think we're gonna see a lot of people our age retiring in other countries.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  I think so too.

• 1:11:59Graham Stephan?

  I think that's just the only way they're gonna be able to do it. If you have two to 500,000 dollars saved.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:05Graham Stephan?

  And you're 60 years old.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  Which is nobody by the time they're 60. Like, very few people get to that amount.

• 1:12:10Graham Stephan?

  If you're lucky enough to have 500,000 dollars saved at the age of 60, and you're done with work, and you wanna retire, and you lose your job because a robot just took it, you can go anywhere in the world and live a fantastic life on 500,000 dollars.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  I totally agree, yeah. There's a lot of alternatives. I, I think that's gonna happen.

• 1:12:27Jack Selby?

  In terms of the US economy, what are your leading bullish indicators?

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Terms of an investment perspective?

• 1:12:33Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Well, I think, you know, the same reasons that got us here in the first place, I think we'll still remain the world reserve currency. And I, I do think there will be a challenger. I think Jerome Powell even said that. He's like, it's, it's okay, there's gonna be probably two competing ones. It's probably gonna be China's currency, it's gonna be our currency. But as long as we have the world reserve currency, I, I think it, it will always squeeze asset prices up, no matter what. Because we have the money printer. And as long as the world is still in need of those currencies, of those units, then we'll always export our inflation to the rest of the world. And with that money, they'll be buying our assets. They'll be buying our treasuries because they'll want an interest on it. And that'll push everything, from equities to treasury bonds, that'll always...

• 1:13:14Jack Selby?

  What determines the world reserve currency? Is it just like who has the strongest military?

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  I would say that was a big part of it, yeah. I think that definition is changing, obviously, which is why the dollar's losing dominance over time. Like, not to be that guy.

• 1:13:27Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  I'll show you that.

• 1:13:28Graham Stephan?

  The dollar has had its worst year, I think, since 1972.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, 2025, we've lost 10%. And here's what's interesting. If, uh, here, strong versus weak dollar, let's see. Oh, there we go. So in 2025, the Dixie Index, which is, measures the strength of the dollar, in 2025's, lost 10%, which is kind of crazy. So what that means is, like, I opened up my investment account, I look at my stocks... So year to date, on this portfolio, I'm up like 14%, which sounds really good. Like, cool, like, that's great, 14%, that's not bad. But the reality is I'm only up like 4%, right? Because the dollars lost 10%, which means if you didn't get a pay raise this year that was 10%, then you lost money in terms of purchasing power.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  So that $100 at the beginning of this year now buys you $90 worth of stuff. That's literally this year alone, which means we're all forced to participate in the market, which is another answer to your question, like, why is the US going to continue to go up? Because we are literally forced to put our money in these assets. If we don't, we lose purchasing power.

• 1:14:39Graham Stephan?

  But here's the thing, I'm noticing in terms of daily purchasing power over the last year, you say the dollar's down 10%.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Graham Stephan?

  But I'm not seeing real estate cost 10% more. I'm not seeing groceries costing 10% more. I'm not seeing gas costing 10% more. I'm seeing a lot of those basically in line.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  Do you go to grocery stores?

• 1:14:57Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Where do you go?

• 1:14:58Graham Stephan?

  Trader Joe's.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  Trader Joe's?

• 1:15:01Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, why?

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  That's like, that's not middle class. Trader Joe's? No, Trader Joe's is nice, I like Trader Joe's. Yeah, I thought you said Whole Foods.

• 1:15:08Graham Stephan?

  No.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:15:09Graham Stephan?

  Where'd you go? Arrowan.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Arrowan, it's still the same price.

• 1:15:13Graham Stephan?

  Dude, the $20 strawberry is still $20.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  $30 per strawberry.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  That's funny.

• 1:15:20Graham Stephan?

  I'm just not seeing everything rise by 10%. If anything, I'm seeing, but gas prices are down a little bit.

• 1:15:29Graham Stephan?

  Energy prices are more or less the same.

• 1:15:34Graham Stephan?

  I don't know, but, but maybe that's because I'm so isolated here in Vegas.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Potentially, yeah. I mean, I think we're definitely losing purchasing power over time. We're making more, we're printing more money. It's constantly something that's going to keep happening. Um, one thing I actually found really interesting is, I don't know if you saw this. Did you see that? So Berkshire Hathaway, Warren Buffett's company, in the last 27 years, it's actually matched the price performance of gold. Look at this. So in the last 27 years, gold?

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  And gold and Berkshire Hathaway, they've basically been the same.

• 1:16:14Graham Stephan?

  So what does that tell you?

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  And then there's this one. So the total returns, it actually goes back to 25 years. This is just a 20 year against the S and P 500. So literally a shiny rock has outperformed all the smartest people on Wall Street, all the innovation. That's kind of nuts.

• 1:16:31Graham Stephan?

  Sometimes I worry that these are very selective dates.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  I knew, I thought you were gonna say that, but like 25 year period. It's not like I was like, let's start right here in a very recent time. It's 25 years worth of innovation.

• 1:16:45Graham Stephan?

  But sometimes going back 30 years could change the picture quite, quite a bit. Or when you look at it from 1978 to today, you get a bit of a different idea because gold. My understanding is that gold just hit its inflation adjusted price as to what it was back in the 1980s.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's caught up for sure.

• 1:17:06Graham Stephan?

  It's caught up. So if you invested in the 1980s, you would have the same amount of money today as you would back then, adjusted for inflation. And that's after, what is it, 40 years, 45 years, almost 50 years, we'll call it. And you have the same amount of money as back in the 1980s. If you invested at the peak.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. But the most brilliant investor, like Warren Buffett, 25 years hasn't been able to outperform gold.

• 1:17:29Graham Stephan?

  It does make me worry too, that maybe Bitcoin could be one of those of like Bitcoin's version is the 1980s version of gold.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  Right. Where it doesn't do anything for 25 years. Right.

• 1:17:39Graham Stephan?

  And then 50 years later, you're like, oh my gosh, it just hit $2 million. It's inflation adjusted.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  That could totally happen. Could totally happen. Yeah. I don't, I don't know what to draw from that conclusion. It's like, that's, that's kind of crazy to me though. That a shiny rock was able to outperform some of the smartest minds in the world.

• 1:17:56Graham Stephan?

  I think it's just the lack of confidence in the United States dollar right now is really contributing to that. And tariffs I don't think are helping confidence. And I think people just want a safe place to store their cash. And in terms of a safe, safe place to put their money, stocks investors feel like is overvalued. The dollar, they don't have faith that it's going to be worth the same three years from now. Bitcoin is a bit too volatile. Where do they put it now? Gold, silver, real estate? But even real estate is expensive relative to the current interest rate.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:32Graham Stephan?

  So it seems like, yeah, it makes sense how it's gold.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  And also, interest rates are going down, which weakens the dollar. So, you know, less demand from foreign countries to buy our treasuries. So that also weakens the dollar, which partially contributes to the 10% loss in purchasing power. It's a lot of things, yeah.

• 1:18:48Jack Selby?

  I'm curious, have you made more money investing or with YouTube over the past year?

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  Hmm, so far, definitely YouTube, by far.

• 1:18:54Jack Selby?

  Definitely, by far.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  By far.

• 1:18:56Jack Selby?

  Have you ever had a year where you made more investing than YouTube?

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Before YouTube. Before YouTube. But I hope it doesn't come across that way on my YouTube channel. I'm not like, hey, I'm the investment guru. You should follow me because I make more money. I think I'm pretty transparent about YouTube being my main source of income. But I think on a long-term scale, I think obviously investments will make a lot more money than YouTube. But investing just takes forever.

• 1:19:18Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, but you can't compare the two. Like, even if you're in the market earning 8%, you can't compare that to like a job that you're working at eight hours a day, five days, six days a week.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think most importantly, as long as I don't position myself and I'm not dishonest with people and I'm not like, hey, look at my portfolio and look how much money I have. You should buy my course because I know what I'm talking about. I hope I'm pretty transparent about that and I don't think that should be a secret, that YouTube is, you know, mainly it.

• 1:19:45Jack Selby?

  And so, why did you give up investing in dividend stocks?

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  I didn't. I still have all my portfolio.

• 1:19:50Jack Selby?

  So you still held on to them, but you didn't continue buying more of them?

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah, I still have all of it.

• 1:19:55Jack Selby?

  What do you make annually on your dividends?

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Like 30K.

• 1:19:58Jack Selby?

  That's not bad.

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  That's not bad. That's an income.

• 1:20:00Jack Selby?

  Why were you doing dividend stocks instead of just normal?

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  I think it made it really easy because the FIRE community, you know, they preach the 4% rule and all these things. It's really easy to plan for retirement because you can see what your monthly income is. And I really like that aspect of it. And the reason that I changed it now back to index funds is just because of my tax rate. Like, I think if it wasn't being taxed at the rate that I am, I'd be totally okay with staying in dividends. I think dividends are extremely powerful and I would never knock anybody for being a dividend investor. I think it's really powerful. I know you don't like dividends and you're mostly an index fund guy too, but...

• 1:20:36Graham Stephan?

  It's just the taxes. I look at the taxes and I'm like, oh my gosh. When you're earning so much from a job and then you get a dividend. You know, obviously, if it's qualified, that helps, but it's still, it's a forced tax payment. So automatically 20% gets taken to the side. And then if you pay a net investment tax on top of that, there's another 3.8%. And then there's potential state taxes on top of that. It really adds up. Like, imagine living in a state like California and you have a short-term capital gain. You're paying 37% federal.

• 1:21:15Graham Stephan?

  Then you could pay another 10% to the state and then another 3.8% as a net investment tax. So you could very easily, all of a sudden, pay more than 50%

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:27Graham Stephan?

  investing your money.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:21:28Graham Stephan?

  That makes no sense.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  Unless you had it in a Roth, in which case it would be tax-free.

• 1:21:31Graham Stephan?

  Correct.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  Right. So that's a workaround, but you're obviously limited to like, what, 7,000, is it now?

• 1:21:36Graham Stephan?

  7,000.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:38Jack Selby?

  So I want to also talk about alternative investments because you bought a bunch of Pokemon cards.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:42Jack Selby?

  So you have that.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  I still have that.

• 1:21:44Jack Selby?

  How much money do you have in Pokemon cards?

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Uh, probably like 150 to 200.

• 1:21:50Jack Selby?

  150 to 200, $150,000?

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Graham Stephan?

  Andre's got an amazing collection. He has something that I want.

• 1:22:00Jack Selby?

  You could buy it. It could be yours for the cheap price of 300.

• 1:22:04Graham Stephan?

  No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

• 1:22:06Jack Selby?

  So you have 150 to 200,000 of Pokemon cards.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Jack Selby?

  Would you spend on these Pokemon cards?

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  I will say that's the principal cost. Like, that's my initial cost. What is, it might be less, it might be more, I have no idea.

• 1:22:17Graham Stephan?

  If I offered you, I think you paid 150 grand for the collection.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:22Graham Stephan?

  If I offered you 150, would you take it?

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't think so.

• 1:22:25Graham Stephan?

  You wouldn't take it?

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so because you can't find that set. So my set is one of 11 known to exist and one of only 15 that will ever exist. And the reason that we know that is because there's one card in it. There's this card called Chancy. And the Shadowless PSA 10, there's only 15 of them known to exist. And it's still been at 15 through the Logan Paul era. Like, remember when Pokemon blew up and everyone was buying and everyone was grading cards? Dude, it's stuck at 15 the whole way through because that's like the hardest card to grade. So from that set, a PSA Shadowless Chancy is like impossible to get. So there's 11 known sets like mine that exist and all the people that own them are like multimillionaires. Like, they don't need the money. So you're not going to get them to sell unless they just absolutely need it.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  So that's, that's

• 1:23:13Graham Stephan?

  I would buy it from you. I'd buy it at the price you paid. If you just wanna say, hey, I wanna cash out of it.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:18Jack Selby?

  I'm sure you could also probably sell it for more.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Maybe. I, I think over time, probably. But I just, I don't, I have not seen that set since I've bought it.

• 1:23:28Graham Stephan?

  This set, here's the thing with, with Andre's set and just Pokemon in general. With your set, they don't trade. And so you don't know what price it's worth. It's also really difficult to sell because the market for that is very, very, very small.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  And usually the, the, the trades that do happen, like the buys, they're off-market, so you're never seeing them. It's not like it's on eBay or something.

• 1:23:52Jack Selby?

  That's interesting.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:53Jack Selby?

  And, and, and what about watches? I remember we were all in Japan at the same time last year.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Jack Selby?

  You ended up buying what watch?

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  Uh, I bought a Longonzona, a datograph. It's a platinum datograph. I believe the reference number was like 403.035. It's a platinum datograph and the watch is like iconic because it's a chronograph. And it's one of the most iconic chronographs that has ever released. I think it was released in like 1998. And it was the, it was the watch that changed high-end watchmaking or high horology, as people call it. Because it forced brands like Patek Philippe and AP to make their movements in-house. Because prior to that watch, they were all manufactured and modified from a company called Lumania. It was the Lumania movement.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  So all these high-end watch companies, they would buy that movement, they would tweak it, and they would put it into their watches. In 1998, during like the, the watch, whatever gathering that they do, that watch came out and like stunned the world. And from that moment onward, the new benchmark for a high-end watch was an in-house movement.

• 1:25:03Jack Selby?

  And so then what is the, what did you pay for that watch? And what's the current value of it?

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  I want to say that, because we talked to Nico Leonard. We talked to like another watch guy.

• 1:25:13Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  And got his opinion on it. And they said that it was the most likely the cheapest data graph in the whole world, like that I found in Japan. And I asked the, the sales associate, I was like, when was this watch listed? And they literally said yesterday. I was like, are you just saying that? And they're like, no, we just got it in yesterday. I look at the reference number and it has, it matches to like my birthday, like how old I am, like crazy stuff. And I was not planning on buying it, but I've always wanted one of those watches. So I paid 54K for it. 54 grand.

• 1:25:50Jack Selby?

  It was the cheapest one by probably $20,000.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, I think the next cheapest one, I don't know what the next cheapest one on the market is, but probably in the seventies, like low seventies.

• 1:26:01Jack Selby?

  And this was at a time when the US to yen conversion rate was really good.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:08Jack Selby?

  Like it had just ticked.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  And there's no sales tax.

• 1:26:10Jack Selby?

  And there's no sales tax.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:13Jack Selby?

  And so you got a smoking hot deal.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  I think so. Like if I wanted to get my money out of it, I think I easily could.

• 1:26:18Jack Selby?

  So I'm curious, why are watches in Japan such a good deal? I've seen so much media on the secondhand luxury watch stores in Japan and how you can go and get like the craziest deals imaginable on some of the nicest, you know, watches like Rolex, Patek's, APs over there. Why is that?

• 1:26:39Speaker 00

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• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  I think, well, at least part of the reason is because anything that's used in Japan, just because like their culture, they keep everything in such like neat condition. It's like pristine. They have things that are like vintage from like the eighties and they look brand new. And they also don't like to, like Japanese people don't like to buy secondhand. They always go for new. I think because culturally, maybe there's like bad things associated maybe with like buying used things. So from that reason alone, in Japan, their market is not necessarily for Japanese people. So all the people that are buying the watches are foreigners that are flying into Japan. So that's a smaller market than the entire country of Japan, obviously. So I think the, the prices are generally lower. At least that's one of the reasons why I think that.

• 1:27:48Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, there's more supply than demand.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:27:51Graham Stephan?

  Uh, Japan is also really against anything counterfeit. And if they're caught selling any fake watch or any like kind of Frankenstein watch, they're going to be blacklisted forever. And these businesses have been around for decades with perfect ratings. So you don't really have to worry about like getting ripped off or getting like a fake watch.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  And we asked, we're like, do you guys sell fake watches? They're like, no, you can't do that here.

• 1:28:14Graham Stephan?

  Now, what's also interesting is that I heard that, uh, a lot of Japanese people believe that when you buy a secondhand watch, the original owner's soul comes with that watch. Like their soul is somehow attached to it.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:31Graham Stephan?

  And so when you buy that watch, you get a part of their soul. And so it's not considered like good to, you don't know what you're getting.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:39Graham Stephan?

  In that sense. And so they just don't want to buy secondhand.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  So from a culture perspective, yeah, there's a little bit of superstition to it.

• 1:28:45Graham Stephan?

  Correct.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah.

• 1:28:47Graham Stephan?

  But you get a great deal. So the, the other interesting thing is that they will not really negotiate. Is that just they, they price it at a point where like if it sells, great. But if it, if it doesn't, like I tried to negotiate, uh, a Zenith Rolex Daytona. And I was saying like, hey, can you bring this price down here? Can we save here? Wouldn't do it. And then Macy found a ring that she wanted. I'm like, okay, but if I buy this, can we throw in the ring at like half price? No. The, the most they did is they said, we're going to throw in a complimentary, like an extra Rolex box.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:29:25Graham Stephan?

  And we'll give you the extra box if you buy it. Okay, fine. But yeah, they don't negotiate either.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  No, so that's, that's part of the reason why, I would say.

• 1:29:34Graham Stephan?

  But what's cool is that they can take Amex, which is really nice. And they don't charge you an extra fee.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  Well, we did get our-

• 1:29:41Graham Stephan?

  Why are you laughing, Jack?

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  That's just funny.

• 1:29:43Graham Stephan?

  If it work- no, because the points, just imagine putting that on a 2% or imagine the Robinhood credit card, 3% back, or the Coinbase card and get 4% back.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  Gemini, get some Bitcoin back?

• 1:29:57Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. I'm just saying, it's, it's like, not only are you getting no sales tax, a favorable exchange rate, but you could then put it on a credit card to get an extra 4% back.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Right. We bought our watches within a day of each other.

• 1:30:10Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. How much did you spend on your watch?

• 1:30:13Graham Stephan?

  I think total, including, because I count the exchange rate and I count also getting points back on the credit card. It was like 19 something.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  And what do you think it's worth?

• 1:30:25Graham Stephan?

  Low end. I'm talking like fire sale,

• 1:30:29Graham Stephan?

  21, and that's like fire sale, I gotta sell in 24 hours. I think it's probably worth 24?

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  Wow. Did I tell you that I, that I bought a ring in Japan and I appraised it and what happened?

• 1:30:41Graham Stephan?

  Mm-mm.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I didn't tell you that story?

• 1:30:43Graham Stephan?

  Mm-mm.

• 1:30:43Speaker 01

  Oh dude, we were walk- walking right by that store that Graham and I bought our watches from. It was called Okura. Um, and I look and I'm like, dude, that's, that's a really cool ring. It was, it was a women's black opal ring, okay? And I, I'm for whatever reason, just obsessed, as Graham is like with aquariums, I'm like obsessed with Australian opals. And for whatever reason, I just know it like disproportionately more than most people know about opals. And I was like, dude, that ring is so cool. So I go in the store and I'm like, how much is that ring? And they're like, $600. I'm like, there's no way this ring is $600. It's a platinum ring with diamonds and a black opal stone that's like two or three carats. And I'm like, this is a $10,000 ring.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  There's no way it's $600. And I was like, is this an Australian opal or an Ethiopian opal? Because there's two types of different opals. Ethiopian opal, which is, I think hydrophonic, which means it absorbs water, or doesn't, one of the two. And then the other opal is just Australian opal, which repels water. It does not absorb water. But they have different characteristics. And I was like, which one is that? And they told me that it was an Ethiopian opal. And I was like, that's not an Ethiopian opal. That looks like an Australian opal. I know my opals, okay? And everyone in the store who was shopping there, they were like, no, that's definitely Ethiopian. Because Australian opals are only black. I'm like, that's BS. I know that's not true. So I gamble it and I risk it. I'm like, I'll just, I'll buy it, right? Six hundred dollars. And I'm bringing it back to the US and I go to get it approved or appraised.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  And the appraisal came in at like ninety-five hundred dollars. A ring that I bought for six hundred dollars.

• 1:32:17Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. That was crazy.

• 1:32:20Jack Selby?

  I guess you never know when that niche knowledge is gonna come to your benefit.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Like, that was like, again, so, so Jack and I talked about this, like, you guys ever like go through life and then something happens and you're like, I live in a simulation?

• 1:32:31Jack Selby?

  All the time.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  Right? Like, we talked about how, this is a true story. It was like, it was like midnight, it was like past midnight. And we were, I was in a random arcade store with me and my friends in Kyoto of all places, in Japan, Kyoto.

• 1:32:45Jack Selby?

  I don't even think I knew you were in Japan.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  We had no idea that each of us were in Japan, but we were in Japan together. And I look and I'm like, dude, that, that's freaking Jack. We go up, like, the odds of us being in a city that we didn't plan to meet at, past midnight at a random arcade store in a city like Kyoto. Like, that was insane. And just like, like the whole random knowledge of like an opal ring. And I'm like, what are the odds that like I would find this random store that had this random ring that I knew so much about?

• 1:33:15Jack Selby?

  What have you done with the ring?

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  I still have it. I got it appraised and I'm keeping it. And, you know, once I get married, that'll be like my proposal ring.

• 1:33:22Jack Selby?

  Ooh, that's nice.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was cool.

• 1:33:25Graham Stephan?

  Paid for the trip, too.

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  Well, if I sell it, but I'm not gonna sell it.

• 1:33:29Graham Stephan?

  But, but it does go to show you that if you come in with some knowledge, basically go to Japan, buy the right thing and pay for the entire trip and basically get the trip for free.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

• 1:33:42Jack Selby?

  What would you say is the best investing advice you've ever heard?

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  I don't know, I think like the most important investing quality of people that I've seen that have built wealth is like their ability to delay gratification. It's just their ability to project into the future and see that there's an older version of themselves that is grateful for their younger self saving and investing money and delaying that gratification, delaying buying the things that you think will make you happy. And on that note, I don't know if you guys agree with this, but like for me, when I want something and I'm like, I really don't want to buy it, but I really want it. And when I buy it, I feel this like sense of relief. But I figured out that the relief comes from not in owning that thing. But in the peacefulness that comes with not wanting it anymore.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Does that make sense? It's like, oh, I'm so glad like I have it now. I don't want it and now it's, it's not bugging me as much. And so if you're able to extrapolate that into the future, you could be like, okay, I could buy this thing. But maybe I can just skip the buying part and then go directly to the not wanting it.

• 1:34:48Jack Selby?

  A lot of the pleasure is in being able to buy something.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:34:52Jack Selby?

  And also I heard some wisdom, which was not wanting something is just as good as having it.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  Right, that's true.

• 1:34:58Jack Selby?

  And so you could take someone that like, you know, really, really, really doesn't want. Oh, a really fancy car for some reason. And they're living just as good as someone that like bought that fancy car just because it doesn't matter to them. Like they have other priorities, other things that make them happier, such as an aquarium.

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:15Jack Selby?

  Or other things that are just more significant to them. But if you don't want something, it's just as good as having it.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  I remember reading a piece of advice on the old fire forums that was like. Oh, use this one trick. It was like, I could buy that. I was like, oh, what is this? And I clicked on it. And it was like, if the next time you want to buy something, save up enough money to buy it and then see how you feel about it. And oftentimes, just the ability, like you said, to buy that thing is as good as owning it. So like, it's like, it's my, I could buy that trick.

• 1:35:45Jack Selby?

  So the key is you could either save and make enough money to be able to buy the things that you want, or you could just want fewer things.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, you go directly to that part if you can. And then also like, I think this is the dividend brain of me, which is like, most people, I think, when they, when they compare. If they want to buy something, they're like, well, how many hours of my work does it cost? Like if something's a hundred dollars and they get paid $20 an hour, like, okay, it cost me five hours of my life to buy that thing. And that's how most people think about purchasing things. But what dividend investing has really taught me is to instead think about things in terms of 4%. So it's like, how much money do I have to have for that thing to passively exist in my life? And that's what we talk about all the time.

• 1:36:26Graham Stephan?

  That's how I think everything is.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  I love that, the 4% rule. So like, how much money do I need to invest? If you don't have that much money invested in the market, then you have no excuse to own that thing. Like, you can't afford it. That's why I've always looked at affording.

• 1:36:39Jack Selby?

  So is that 4% per year or 4% of the?

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Well, it depends. If it's like a recurring cost, like for example, if it's like a Netflix subscription. What's Netflix right now?

• 1:36:47Graham Stephan?

  12.99.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  Let's say $13, right? Times 12, that's $156 a year.

• 1:36:53Jack Selby?

  Times 25.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Or divided by .04. That's $3,900. If you don't have $3,900 invested in the market at 4%.

• 1:37:02Jack Selby?

  You cannot afford Netflix.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  You cannot afford that $13 a month. Like, that's just how you think about it. I've always thought about it that way. I think that's the coolest way to think about it. And so that's what motivated me to build a dividend portfolio. Cause then I could be like, okay, now I know how much money I'm passively making. And now I can delegate what things I can and can't afford.

• 1:37:22Graham Stephan?

  It's so addicting once you start doing that, though. Because I remember, in a separate vein, it wasn't dividends, but for me, it was YouTube income. Cause I viewed that as all passive, because I would have done it anyway. And I remember making a dollar a day and thinking, oh, wow, that pays for an all-you-could-eat sushi every single month.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:42Graham Stephan?

  For free. And then it started to become, wow, I got a free phone bill every single month at $50 a month. And then my car insurance is 100. Oh, wow, my car insurance is now free. And everything starts to like stack. And then pretty soon it's like, wow, my mortgage is now free.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:38:01Graham Stephan?

  This is free, this is free. Now I just live for free, because I would be doing this anyway and I'm making money.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's so cool. And then you eventually realize that the quickest way to being financially free isn't necessarily by building a bigger portfolio. It's literally by removing those recurring costs. Cause that's way easier to do than needing that money invested at 4%. She's like, hey, if I could remove this, this car payment or this, like, I just saved 100 grand from like retirement. That's like, that's the coolest way of thinking about it.

• 1:38:29Jack Selby?

  Yeah. Do you think that the money printing in the United States is a strategy? This is a conspiracy theory right here, to keep people poor?

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  Hmm, that's a really good question.

• 1:38:41Graham Stephan?

  I don't think on that level of conspiracy to where I think that is an intentional thing that we're doing. I don't think people are that organized to be like, this is what keeps people poor. Let's keep doing it. I don't think that's the case. What do you think? You think it's intentional?

• 1:38:56Jack Selby?

  I tend to not buy into conspiracies, but also if you think about it, any money printing drives up assets. Assets are owned by wealthy people, not poor people. Poor people suffer with inflation. It's just what's happening and they're printing money to try to help the poor people, but it's like clearly not. So I don't understand.

• 1:39:16Graham Stephan?

  I don't think money printing has anything to do with poor people. Why would they want them to be, wouldn't, they would benefit more from people having more money because they spend more. Like if you gave a hundred thousand dollars to an average person, I almost guarantee to be gone, average person, it'll be gone almost instantly.

• 1:39:34Graham Stephan?

  They're not gonna save it. So it's better for people to make more money. Like there's no incentive for the government to keep people.

• 1:39:38Jack Selby?

  Well, technically speaking, poor people are gonna be easier to control with the government.

• 1:39:44Graham Stephan?

  What I, what I think is more systemically realistic is that the school system teaches people just to work and follow in line, listen to another person, do as instructed. You take your lunch here, you start here, you end here, you do this whole thing so you could work for someone else. It's just a very outdated system. Now, I think is probably more likely that they keep people in like a working hamster wheel and then they shove it down throats of like, oh, it's good to go to college. And then now you borrow money. Now you're in debt. And then it's, oh, but you have to buy a house because that's the American, now you buy a house. Now you, now you have a fifty thousand dollar student loan and a three hundred thousand dollar mortgage. You're not going anywhere. And now you have to take that job to keep making those payments because you

• 1:40:28Graham Stephan?

  don't want to lose your house and you can't default on your student loans. You've been with bankruptcy. So now you're kind of stuck. But then you're thirty five and you think, oh crap, I'm getting to an age where I should probably have a kid. So now you have a kid. Now you definitely can't take the risk to start your own business or do anything. So now you're stuck working that job you don't like to pay for the house, to pay for the student loans, and now you have a kid to support. And now you're just kind of. And so you keep working until you're 70 and then you die.

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  Right. So you're saying it's kind of a result of our own decisions and kind of is a byproduct of a shared delusion that we all have about what it's like to live a

• 1:41:02Graham Stephan?

  I heard that a lot of the school system was was created by a factory owner and this could totally be untrue and I'm just rephrasing what someone else told me was dictated by a factory owner who wanted more workers and so they they set up a whole system to basically keep people in this loop of like learning how to work for somebody else and that makes sense.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Makes perfect sense, yeah.

• 1:41:26Graham Stephan?

  So I don't know if that's true or not.

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  I think that's separate from the money printer question, but.

• 1:41:31Graham Stephan?

  The money printing, I think, is purely a result of the government getting out of control in their spending and this is the only way they could get out of it is just like, what do they do?

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  Here's how I here's how I see the whole money printing thing. The money printer allows governments to do whatever the hell they want, whenever they want, because if we operated on a fixed supply kind of a system, how long do you think people would put up with fighting wars or whatever the government wants? Because like if you were to fund a war, let's say, you actually have to tax people, you actually need the money and the revenue from people. But if you couldn't print money, if you could print money, then you can do whatever you want. And so I think that's a byproduct of power being exercised beyond what what's in our best interest. And that's what Bitcoin is trying to fix. Like, that's why people are obsessed with Bitcoin is because it's a fixed supply and

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  therefore governments have to be responsible, therefore they can't just do whatever they want.

• 1:42:27Jack Selby?

  So then what would you say is the main thing that is keeping people poor then?

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  Just a lack of financial education and literacy, mostly, and lifestyle decisions. I don't know, for whatever reason, these questions make me think of George Carlin. Do you guys know who that is, comedian? He's like, oh, yeah, the rich exist to like, kind of inspire the middle class and then the poor exist there to scare the out of them.

• 1:42:50Graham Stephan?

  What do you mean?

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Well, because it's like, keep, keep being in the hamster wheel. Like, if you don't, if you don't want to be like these people, you gotta keep working. You gotta keep doing it.

• 1:42:57Graham Stephan?

  And to keep working is, look at this guy who just bought a Ferrari.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  Right. You, don't you want to be like that guy? But you definitely don't want to be like that guy.

• 1:43:03Graham Stephan?

  So it keeps you stuck in the middle.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:06Graham Stephan?

  I heard somewhere that the worst thing you could do to someone is pay them eighty thousand dollars a year, because it's just the right point where they're making enough, where they don't want to risk it, but it's not so little that they're forced to take big action and make significant moves to do something that would drive their income so much higher and give them so much more opportunity. It's like that safety middle where it's just enough to keep you going. And especially if you get promised like a raise to ninety K to then a hundred. And you, like, you see the trajectory going up. You're gonna want to stick on that and not do your own thing.

• 1:43:42Speaker 01

  The slowly boiling crab, right? I don't know, I just feel like, in order to be, like, if you think about it mathematically, in order to be the one, like, if you think rich is to, to have a lot of money, if that's your definition of rich, then you gotta do like what the ninety-nine percent don't want to do. Like, to become the one percent. Which is literally the opposite of what everyone else does. Like, not going out to eat in restaurants and saving money and not owning a car and bicycling to work. It's like, that's what it takes, just have enough escape velocity to get out of that. And I think that's what I focused so much on in my early twenties. Because my parents were immigrants and they didn't understand money. And I was like, okay, let me not do that.

• 1:44:21Graham Stephan?

  I've really been following a lot of Alex Becker's videos. He has this new channel, Alex Becker Business. And he talks a lot about what people have to do today who are young.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:30Graham Stephan?

  To make a lot of money. And he talks about, just like, if you want to be that, that one percent who succeeds and does something like really big, think of what everyone else is doing and then don't do that.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:42Graham Stephan?

  And you put yourself in uncomfortable positions. And one thing I really liked is he said, the, the, the moment you turn eighteen, move out of your house. Live with five roommates. Just have a mattress on the floor and a computer and figure it out.

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:57Graham Stephan?

  And I think that that's pretty good advice.

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  That's a great point. Yeah.

• 1:45:00Graham Stephan?

  I think a lot of people would benefit from doing that and no Netflix.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:45:04Graham Stephan?

  No video games.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  I think literally all three of us did our own version of all of that. Like, I know you've done that. You've lived with like five roommates and you were house hacking. I know you did that. I did that in my own way with Airbnb and I was renting out a room. I was subleasing. Like, we all had to do that and do what I think 99% of people just would not put up with. But if you can just get to that escape threshold, like that escape velocity to where you're not reliant necessarily on that paycheck, even for a little, to go out and, you know, build a business or whatever.

• 1:45:38Graham Stephan?

  It's interesting. I get really frustrated lately when I see people who are like 18 to 21 not doing anything. And just kind of like coasting because I'm like, they have no idea how much opportunity is out there and just what they could get involved in. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, it's just, it frustrates me to see you potentially being wasted.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  You know, I've thought about that too, and I'm kind of like the devil's advocate on that because I think it's true that now more than ever, there's more economic opportunity to make money with so many different things, right? With like the Ubers, the Airbnbs and like the TaskRab, it's like the task economy. I get that. And also with social media, obviously, like the biggest opportunity. But I also feel like if I view it from that perspective, it's also very selfish because those are my interests. Like, I'm interested in those things. So I'm like, why aren't you doing that? But I feel like for a lot of people, like, what if they're not interested in that? And they like look at the last generation and, you know, their parents and like how they got screwed by the system. I could totally tell like why they would feel that way.

• 1:46:43Graham Stephan?

  I just feel like as a young guy, because that's like, that's our audience. It's like 90 something percent male. Uh, you have to create some sort of value.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:46:54Graham Stephan?

  There's gotta be something that you're doing to stand out. And when you have that like that energy and you're young and you don't need to sleep eight hours and you don't always look tired in videos because you didn't sleep and you're stressed. It's just like this, you have so much opportunity.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:47:13Graham Stephan?

  That's where I get frustrated.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  Do you ever think you're lucky sometimes to be interested in the thing that happens to make a lot of money? Sometimes I look at Warren Buffett and I'm like, that's a cool skill that he has, but it's so like one dimensional and he happens to exist in a world that rewards him greatly for it.

• 1:47:31Speaker 00

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• 1:47:57Graham Stephan?

  I think I got lucky in the sense that I

• 1:48:00Speaker 01

  You found a passion.

• 1:48:01Graham Stephan?

  I'm naturally a saver. No, I think I would have made money no matter what I would have done. If it were aquariums, I know I would have made money.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:08Graham Stephan?

  Doing aquariums. Cause now some of these businesses that like the aquarium businesses, they're profiting like three million a year.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:14Graham Stephan?

  Doing aquariums.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 1:48:16Graham Stephan?

  It's like incredible. It's a really, really, really good business.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:21Graham Stephan?

  I would have done that. There's just like whatever interest you have, I bet there's a way to make at least one to 200,000 a year. I didn't schedule.

• 1:48:29Jack Selby?

  At the end of the day, it's about like not necessarily your interests, but are you the type of person to like roll onto your back?

• 1:48:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:36Jack Selby?

  And just like kind of let life happen to you? Or are you the person that like comes up, fails against something and then tries to learn from it and then uses that as like a tool in your belt to then, you know, help solve a problem later in life? It's just your ability to provide value and learn from failure.

• 1:48:50Graham Stephan?

  But then again, is that, are you born with that?

• 1:48:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:53Graham Stephan?

  Or are you raised with that?

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  Right. That's the, that's the trillion dollar question.

• 1:48:56Graham Stephan?

  And here's an interesting one between Jason and Brett Oppenheimer. Twins, raised same parents, same school, same experiences, completely different.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  In what way?

• 1:49:08Graham Stephan?

  Jason is very like type A, very motivated, business, works all the time. Brett is so laid back and chill.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  Is he lazy?

• 1:49:18Graham Stephan?

  No, I wouldn't say he's lazy. Actually, no, I would not say he's lazy. I would say that he just isn't interested in that constant grind and hustle. He just has zero desire to work himself beyond what he needs. And I remember like, this is years ago, but he would basically do enough business in real estate to chill for the rest of the year. Obviously, if there's a client or something that came up, he would do it. But some of these years, he can make quite a bit of money and then just like, alright, I'm going to Greece for a while and just relaxing.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:49:51Graham Stephan?

  And then if he needs more money, he'll just be like, alright, I'm gonna go and make more money. It just makes enough. It's just a period. He's got a natural ability to just go and make money.

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  I really admire people like that. I don't think I'm one of those people. I'm not like, I need to constantly grind and make more money. I don't know, sometimes I feel like people are so poor that all they have is money, basically. I think if that's the only thing that drives you, that's cool. I just, I can't relate with that.

• 1:50:18Jack Selby?

  How's your definition of success changed then, going from being like, from an immigrant family, not having a lot of money, and then going through life, earning a lot of money,

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:28Jack Selby?

  to now having quite a bit of money post-tax, just like chilling?

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  I think my definition's changed a lot. Like nowadays, if I see someone with kids, I'm like, that's wealth to me. I don't know why. I just view somebody with a family as like being wealthy. Probably because it also costs a lot of money to have kids and maintain a good family. But that's just to me like more important at this point. But I also realize it's a privileged perspective because I didn't always have that perspective. It's obviously easy to have that when you have money.

• 1:50:54Jack Selby?

  Speaking of family and relationships, what is the best relationship advice you've heard? And what does the red pill movement?

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:51:03Jack Selby?

  Get right and wrong about dating?

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  I don't think I know enough about the red pill movement to like represent what it has right. You tell me.

• 1:51:10Jack Selby?

  I don't know.

• 1:51:11Speaker 01

  You know what it is.

• 1:51:12Jack Selby?

  You were telling me all of this red pill jargon.

• 1:51:15Speaker 01

  That's red pill jargon?

• 1:51:16Jack Selby?

  Right before the podcast, you were like saying the craziest stuff.

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  I was? Yeah.

• 1:51:22Graham Stephan?

  What? I was like, what are you?

• 1:51:25Jack Selby?

  So what's the best relationship advice you've heard?

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. I don't, I don't think I've ever heard relationship advice.

• 1:51:31Jack Selby?

  Never?

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  Never. No, not really.

• 1:51:33Jack Selby?

  What is the best relationship advice? Like, what works for you in your relationship?

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, growing up, I saw my parents have a very tumultuous and like, very bad relationship. And I always equated having a, like, a crazy relationship where you always fight as like, love? And I think over time, that definition has matured and changed. Like, I was like, oh, I'm clearly, I'm fighting with like, my girlfriend, so therefore, that means we really love each other. And the more we fight, the more in love we are. Does that make sense?

• 1:52:01Jack Selby?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  And I think that's a really toxic way of viewing it. I think as I've matured and I've gotten older, I've realized that you can be chill and, you know, have your own time to yourself and not get like, you know, bothered by a lot of things. And that can be love. And I didn't see that growing up. So I think that's just like, experience and time of realizing that. And also, just being so much later in life to have kids or like, to want a family and, I think that just comes from maturing, which I did not see my parents do, because my parents had me when they were like, 19. So.

• 1:52:34Graham Stephan?

  It's always crazy to me, because I think, oh, man, if I had a kid at 18 years old, how old would they be now? It's like, 17?

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:44Graham Stephan?

  It's, it's, I always do that. I'm like, hey, instead of having Bailey, we had a kid, they'd be like, five and a half years old. It's weird stuff like that.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  But if you had a kid now, do you think you'd look back in your life and be like, I wish I didn't have a kid. I wish I could have just made a couple more million before I did it?

• 1:52:58Graham Stephan?

  It's less about that and more about just the, the time. I, if, if I had a kid today and a child appeared, I would regret not having traveled more and done experiences.

• 1:53:12Graham Stephan?

  That you just can't do quite the same after having a kid. And I think travel is a big one. And I would have been like, oh, man, instead of spending all the time working, I should have done all these other things that I just postponed.

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  Really? I don't think you'd feel that way at all. I think you'd eventually get to do those things, whether it's with your kids or after.

• 1:53:30Graham Stephan?

  Bill Perkins, because we talked about this on that pod, really opened my eyes. And he's like, your window is closing of you before kids. And once you have a child, the you that's sitting here today is never going to exist again in the same capacity.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:45Graham Stephan?

  And he said, now is your time to do these things in your life because it's your last chance. And I was like, oh, wow, he's, he's correct. So I'm in the mindset now where like, hey, now is a good time to travel.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:59Graham Stephan?

  Take it a bit slower, do these things that I just don't want to keep putting it off forever.

• 1:54:04Speaker 01

  That's true. I don't think you've traveled quite a lot, right?

• 1:54:07Graham Stephan?

  Japan.

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:09Graham Stephan?

  Uh, but I want to spend a year and, and over the year, maybe spend two months of the year, just spread out throughout the year, just traveling different places.

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  Do you have like a checklist of places you want to go? And then you're like, okay, I'm ready for a kid. Or is it like how you feel or what's it based on?

• 1:54:23Graham Stephan?

  I think, obviously I love a checklist, but I think you don't need to hit everything on the checklist. But you know, hitting 50% on that list would be pretty good.

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  How many places do you want to see?

• 1:54:33Graham Stephan?

  Probably four or five.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:54:35Graham Stephan?

  But spend like a week and a half in each.

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:38Graham Stephan?

  So like two months out of the year.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:54:40Graham Stephan?

  You know, every other month being away for like two weeks.

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:54:44Graham Stephan?

  Perfect. Maybe every three months being away.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  Do you think you're working towards that, would you say?

• 1:54:49Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, we're planning, uh, to go away this year, doing a few little trips. And then next year I want to plan and get that done.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Because I feel like at the, at the rate that you're traveling, that I know you to travel, like you're going to take the next 10 years to get to the next five places. Because you don't travel a lot.

• 1:55:05Jack Selby?

  I said that like.

• 1:55:05Graham Stephan?

  No, I'm doing it.

• 1:55:06Speaker 01

  Vacation.

• 1:55:06Jack Selby?

  Like Graham will treat everything as his priority. Like, for example, some gas valve will go out on one of his rental properties and he has to spend like, you know, six hour of his time, six hours of his time comparing quotes from different contractors, stressing out about it. And that's just something that like should realistically be so insignificant in his life. But at the same point, if he just spent the six hours, like trying to optimize the quality of his life.

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:55:30Jack Selby?

  And doing the things that he says that he wants to do, like traveling the world and going to go visit places. It's like you should be spending that time optimizing for life fulfillment, purpose, meaning, quality of life, figuring out a few places you want to go to, picking some people you want to go visit them with. It's like that right there is actually like being meaningful with the way that you're spending your time.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:50Jack Selby?

  And you prioritize so many other things that realistically you hate doing, you don't need to be doing, over the things that you want to do, but you don't do.

• 1:55:57Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:55:58Speaker 01

  That's a great observation. That's a really good way of putting it. From, from what I've observed of you being the way you are. And I'm similar in the sense of like, once something's on my mind, I'm like, I gotta do it right now. But then the things that are so important to us, we sometimes forget to do and plan for and just think they're gonna like happen organically, but they don't. And I just feel like, man, I think about having a kid. And I'm like, I'm 36 years old right now. When my kid's 36, I'm gonna be 72. That's, that's kind of depressing to me.

• 1:56:26Graham Stephan?

  I think we're gonna live into, into our 90s.

• 1:56:29Speaker 01

  But will we have the same like quality of life and health? Like right now, you're in your prime in terms of how you observe and view the world and experience it, how your health is like. When you're 70, like, okay, you might live to 100, but are you gonna be as fit? And will you care about all this stuff? Like, probably not, you know?

• 1:56:48Graham Stephan?

  I don't know. I'm planning to live to like, I want to hit 100. I'm just saying.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  Planning to do it.

• 1:56:53Graham Stephan?

  I want to hit 100. I think that would be, that would be ideal. So I'm doing everything I can to live to 100.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  Okay, I would, I would love to live a hundred, but.

• 1:57:02Jack Selby?

  You gotta go to Thailand and get those biomarkers tested.

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  You do, man.

• 1:57:04Jack Selby?

  That's gonna be the hard part.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  And not take more than three.

• 1:57:06Jack Selby?

  Saving up, saving up now.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Not take more than three hours, hopefully.

• 1:57:10Graham Stephan?

  Could be days, man, I don't know.

• 1:57:11Speaker 01

  We've gone full circle.

• 1:57:12Graham Stephan?

  I just can't.

• 1:57:13Speaker 01

  We've gone full circle.

• 1:57:14Graham Stephan?

  I'm not like you, or I could just like.

• 1:57:16Speaker 01

  Wait, so are you, are you, are you planning to have kids, you think?

• 1:57:18Graham Stephan?

  One day.

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  One day?

• 1:57:19Graham Stephan?

  One day.

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  Like, when?

• 1:57:21Graham Stephan?

  I don't put a win on it, but at, at some point, yes, I would like that.

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  Do you think you'll be, like, literally everyone that we know, that's like, if I had known, I would have done it sooner? Do you think you'll be that way?

• 1:57:33Graham Stephan?

  It's impossible to say, cause I'm not there. Maybe, but maybe not.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  But I just feel like we've heard that, and I've heard you tell me that. It's just anyone who has kids is like, ah, like, I was scared and I was putting it off, but I wish I had done it earlier. And if you know that now, does that affect anything?

• 1:57:51Graham Stephan?

  Maybe.

• 1:57:52Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 1:57:52Graham Stephan?

  But maybe not. I don't know. Just because other people say it doesn't mean I always follow it.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:56Graham Stephan?

  I think you just come to your own conclusion.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wouldn't know either. I don't have kids yet.

• 1:58:00Jack Selby?

  And then what is the ideal amount of money to have?

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  Enough to do anything you want with, but not too much to where you wanna do nothing.

• 1:58:08Jack Selby?

  How much is that?

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  Somewhere in between.

• 1:58:12Jack Selby?

  The amount?

• 1:58:13Graham Stephan?

  You gotta give an amount.

• 1:58:14Speaker 01

  The way I would define it is just enough.

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Like, well, enough is different for everybody.

• 1:58:20Jack Selby?

  So what's enough for you?

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  Um,

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  enough to do, to do what with, though? Like, just to live?

• 1:58:28Jack Selby?

  Yeah, for your, what's the perfect amount of money for Andrejek?

• 1:58:31Speaker 01

  I, I would say, I'd be happy with, with like, two million dollars.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  Even a million. I'd be happy with. I would make it work.

• 1:58:40Jack Selby?

  What do you mean? I'm asking, what's the perfect amount of money?

• 1:58:42Graham Stephan?

  You could just select, you could just select an amount.

• 1:58:44Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  You could just select an amount, yeah, sure.

• 1:58:45Graham Stephan?

  So select an amount.

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  What's your guys'?

• 1:58:50Graham Stephan?

  The ideal, like a perfect?

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  That makes no sense to me. I don't, what does that even mean?

• 1:58:54Jack Selby?

  I would say, I would say the perfect amount of money for me is 10 million bucks.

• 1:58:58Speaker 01

  I was gonna say 10 million too initially, but I'm like, yeah, but like 5 million's fine too.

• 1:59:02Jack Selby?

  5 million's great.

• 1:59:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So like, how do you answer that question? 5 million's fine. 10 is better. 20 might be better.

• 1:59:08Jack Selby?

  But you're-

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  50 might be even better.

• 1:59:10Jack Selby?

  You-

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:59:11Jack Selby?

  When I asked, when I asked you the question though, you're like, well, it's not so much that you don't wanna do things.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:16Jack Selby?

  It's also not-

• 1:59:17Speaker 01

  I do really believe-

• 1:59:18Graham Stephan?

  It depends, you know what, on the age, you get the money too. How old are you?

• 1:59:20Speaker 01

  True.

• 1:59:20Graham Stephan?

  Like, at 30, I'd say it's a different age than at 60.

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  Dude, I do believe that having so much money though, like, can be a curse at a certain point. Like, I don't, I haven't had enough to where it's like, it's become a curse, but I think there is a amount.

• 1:59:33Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. You could gift somebody a lottery ticket. And you could dictate how much money they get. How much would you give them? And it wouldn't ruin their life. You don't wanna give too much, where all of a sudden it screws everything up.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:47Graham Stephan?

  But you don't wanna undercut them either, because you could decide how much they get.

• 1:59:51Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, I would say 10 million's a great amount. 10 million's great.

• 1:59:56Jack Selby?

  I would say like, like 4 million bucks.

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  What's that 4 million for you?

• 2:00:01Jack Selby?

  4 million would be buying yourself a house, putting some money in stocks, spending a little bit of money.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  Give me like a picture of like how you've allocated that 4 million. You have 4 million dollars net worth. What, what does that mean?

• 2:00:12Jack Selby?

  4 million dollars net worth?

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  You said 4 million.

• 2:00:14Jack Selby?

  For me personally, or this hypothetical situation?

• 2:00:16Speaker 01

  You said 4 million.

• 2:00:16Jack Selby?

  Let's say you take 4% from that, that's 160,000 dollars a year. Let's say you take 3% from that, that's 120,000 dollars a month. That's what you can spend. Realistically, they're gonna go F off with some of the money, they're gonna spend it. But if you have 10 million dollars instead of 4 million, I do think that once you add that extra digit in there, people are gonna be like, oh, I need a Ferrari, I need a Lambo, I need this, I need that. With 4 million dollars, realistically, people are not gonna be buying, well, I'm sure they will. But like, I think 4 million is solid, because it doesn't appear to be this insane, insane, insane amount of money, where you're gonna go buy a bunch of new Lambos, some Ferraris, and you could still just put it away in some stocks.

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  Hold on, but were you saying people or you?

• 2:00:52Jack Selby?

  People.

• 2:00:52Speaker 01

  People? Okay.

• 2:00:53Graham Stephan?

  I bet they would.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  I think they would. I think 4, you give anyone a million dollars, they'd be gone in a year.

• 2:00:58Jack Selby?

  Okay, so what's the perfect amount for someone to win in a lottery then? For 50 bucks?

• 2:01:01Speaker 01

  But that's what I'm saying, like, but I'm, I'm assuming you're asking me, or, and I'm asking you, Jack. Like, what is your amount? Not, not like a hypothetical for an average person.

• 2:01:09Jack Selby?

  My perfect amount of money, I would say would be-

• 2:01:12Graham Stephan?

  Probably between five and 10 million.

• 2:01:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:01:16Graham Stephan?

  Hmm.

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  Okay, that makes more sense, yeah.

• 2:01:19Graham Stephan?

  Graham? Me personally? Hmm. Or for the average person, because you were talking about average. You personally.

• 2:01:27Graham Stephan?

  Fifty million.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  Fifty million?

• 2:01:30Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. Because it's not enough where you could just private jet all the time. But you could get a nice piece of beachfront real estate.

• 2:01:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:38Graham Stephan?

  You could be bi-coastal.

• 2:01:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:01:42Graham Stephan?

  You could take first-class plane tickets without really thinking through it. And you could have a great collection of something that's unique. You don't think you'd do that with 20 million? No. No, you're not buying first-class plane tickets with two beachfront prop. Dude, a nice beachfront property is going to be eight to 12 million dollars. Oh, if it's that expensive a property, yeah. Just it, but you could even have just a normal 2,500 square foot house on the beach. In a great location in Santa Barbara, and that's going to be 12 million dollars.

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  The thing that I take away from this conversation is that I'm very glad I am not in your perspective. I'm so glad that I don't have that same perception of like how much I need. I think that's like a burden that I don't have that you do, if that makes sense.

• 2:02:29Graham Stephan?

  I don't think it's a burden.

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  I think it's a complete burden.

• 2:02:31Graham Stephan?

  How is that a burden?

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  It just is.

• 2:02:33Graham Stephan?

  It's like, it makes.

• 2:02:34Speaker 01

  Okay, so the way I would define happiness for people is the difference or the delta between their reality and expectation, right? It's like where you are today and where you'd like to be. And the delta between where you are and 50 million or 100 million or billion is like crazy. Now, once you've reached like, let's say, uh, it gets like, why are some of the richest people some of the most miserable people in the world? Because their reality is like at utopian levels.

• 2:03:05Graham Stephan?

  Hmm.

• 2:03:05Speaker 01

  Where do you go from that point? There is no more expectation there, like there's nothing money will increase. And so therefore, their happiness level, there is, there's no space there, there's no headroom.

• 2:03:17Graham Stephan?

  I would say I'm pretty happy, though. I'd say most days, like 10 being the happiest I've ever been in my life and one being like really unhappy, most days I'm like a solid eight to like.

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:28Graham Stephan?

  Eight point five.

• 2:03:29Speaker 01

  I'm not saying you're unhappy. I'm just saying anybody who ties their happiness to like some perceived like wealth level is it's like it's not a burden you want.

• 2:03:37Graham Stephan?

  I like having a goal and then going after the goal and always having something.

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:42Graham Stephan?

  Of like, hey, this would be cool. Like, like your Pokemon collection, like that hundred and fifty grand.

• 2:03:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:03:47Graham Stephan?

  That's that to me would be like, that would be cool. That would be awesome to have.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:53Graham Stephan?

  And so then I think about that and I think, oh, I just, just the aspect of wanting something like here. Here's an example of something I postponed for a long time. I really want a Tesla Model S and a used one too, like a twenty twenty three Tesla Model S long range.

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:04:10Graham Stephan?

  I could go out and buy that thing right now.

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:04:13Graham Stephan?

  But I I purposely don't buy it.

• 2:04:16Speaker 01

  Cause you're edging yourself.

• 2:04:17Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, in a way, but it's just, it's just the, just the idea of like.

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  Exactly my point.

• 2:04:22Graham Stephan?

  But I could, but I have fun.

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:04:24Graham Stephan?

  Going and looking and like every day be like, is today the day?

• 2:04:27Speaker 01

  Because you subconsciously understand that by owning that thing, it's like that happiness that you have right now, the excitement, like that's what you're holding on to. Cause you don't have it, but you could get it anytime you want. That's exactly what I'm trying to prove.

• 2:04:41Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, but my point being is I'm still happy just not getting that thing as I am just looking at them online and maybe getting one one day.

• 2:04:48Speaker 01

  Right, that's fine, but that that proves my point that like there is some burden that is attached to like thinking that you'll be happier at like a fifty million dollar thing.

• 2:04:57Graham Stephan?

  I think at some point I get the car, get the twenty twenty three Tesla Model S. I got a good deal. I really, really, really enjoy it. And then after a year or two, I think, oh, wow, maybe this Model X. And then I just edge myself a little further. But like I'm, but, but I'm constantly just leveling up. It's like every year is a little better than the year prior.

• 2:05:18Speaker 01

  Here's the way I view it is once you're on that hamster wheel and like you'll find the next thing to edge yourself with, right? You'll never find finality in that spectrum.

• 2:05:29Graham Stephan?

  I would hate to find finality though.

• 2:05:30Speaker 01

  Right, and I agree with that, but if you only attach that, that level of like happiness to just material things, that that's fine. I'm not saying it's wrong. But like for me, I think there's so many different. Aspects of life that you can chase and edge yourself with that are not necessarily attached to like some financial figure and still find happiness.

• 2:05:54Graham Stephan?

  But here's the thing, to get to that financial figure, you're not just making money out of thin air. You have to do something productive and you have to do something meaningful. So in the pursuit of that, you're doing something that's hopefully bigger than yourself.

• 2:06:05Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 2:06:05Graham Stephan?

  So it's part of the process.

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Yes, but that's financially, but then there's also so many different ways to explore that. Like that's, you're talking about depth, I'm talking about broad, right? Does that make sense? Like you're talking about depth of economics.

• 2:06:18Graham Stephan?

  I think you could have length and girth.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  Oh, well.

• 2:06:21Graham Stephan?

  So.

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  I'm a girth kind of guy.

• 2:06:23Graham Stephan?

  I think you could still hit that beachfront property with a nice yard that goes out into sand. The waves break and you could still do that while at the same time.

• 2:06:33Speaker 01

  Listen, I rented an Airbnb in Hawaii for like, dude, I spent stupid amounts of money for like a week. I spent like 15 grand for a week on like, it was like a 20 million dollar house on a beach and I lived there for like a week and like this is cool. But like what I dedicate my entire life to chasing this thing. Like I'm like, no, I'll skip it. Like I don't want to attach my perception of like the journey of life to this thing that I just got to experience and it's cool, but like I'm cool without it. It's not the end of the world for me if I don't have that. It'd be nice to have, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life like not traveling or not having kids, not having more meaningful experiences in lieu of this thing.

• 2:07:16Graham Stephan?

  I think you could do both.

• 2:07:17Speaker 01

  I think you can.

• 2:07:18Graham Stephan?

  You could still pursue that and still have a meaningful life and have a family and all that sort of stuff.

• 2:07:23Speaker 01

  I think it, for sure, it depends on how you want to structure your life.

• 2:07:27Graham Stephan?

  So there's nothing at this point that you want besides a family?

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  I think so, yeah. There's nothing that I'm like, oh, I gotta build a business because I want this thing. I'm so glad I don't feel that way.

• 2:07:37Graham Stephan?

  But what about a yard with a pool?

• 2:07:40Speaker 01

  That's nice.

• 2:07:43Graham Stephan?

  See, I got you thinking now.

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 2:07:45Graham Stephan?

  Here we go.

• 2:07:46Speaker 01

  I got that.

• 2:07:47Graham Stephan?

  You don't have a yard and a pool.

• 2:07:50Speaker 01

  Well, I don't need a pool. You know what? It's way more enjoyable to have a pool, to go to a friend's pool, because they pay for it. And they maintain it.

• 2:07:59Graham Stephan?

  Only if they heat the pool, which they don't do.

• 2:08:01Speaker 01

  Which my friends don't do.

• 2:08:02Graham Stephan?

  Nope.

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  They don't want to spend the money.

• 2:08:04Graham Stephan?

  Nope, because it's expensive.

• 2:08:06Speaker 01

  Dude, we went to Graham's July 4th party and he's like, "I'm not heating up the pool." Like, dude, I'll pay you $5 to heat up the pool today.

• 2:08:13Graham Stephan?

  It's way more than $5.

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  How much is it?

• 2:08:15Graham Stephan?

  I gotta get that beachfront property, man. That $5 compounded in Bitcoin.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  I don't know. Haven't you, like, had the same experience where it's like eating someone else's snacks is always more enjoyable than like having it yourself? Or like going to swim at someone else's pool, it's just so much more enjoyable?

• 2:08:29Jack Selby?

  I like to have it myself, but I also don't... I have very few, like, desires. Like, there aren't many things that I feel like I need in my life to be happy.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  Why is that?

• 2:08:40Jack Selby?

  I think it's...

• 2:08:41Graham Stephan?

  But don't you want a beach house?

• 2:08:44Jack Selby?

  No.

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:08:47Jack Selby?

  Why not?

• 2:08:48Graham Stephan?

  Why?

• 2:08:49Jack Selby?

  Because I just got another house and it's such a pain in the butt. And I'm like, "Oh," like, I just... I want few things.

• 2:08:55Speaker 01

  But if you have $50 million, you don't have to worry about that.

• 2:08:58Jack Selby?

  I would rather just rent it, you know?

• 2:09:00Graham Stephan?

  You could rent the house, Jack. There's nothing that says you have to buy it.

• 2:09:02Jack Selby?

  But I like... What I really love doing, what I absolutely love doing, and I wish I could do it more often, is work throughout the day, see my friends, eat some good food, play pickleball at night. That's all I want. That's all I want, and I'll be extremely happy. And that's it.

• 2:09:19Speaker 01

  Do you think that's, like, boring or, like, wrong?

• 2:09:22Jack Selby?

  No.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Like, okay.

• 2:09:23Jack Selby?

  No, not at all.

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:09:24Jack Selby?

  No.

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:09:26Graham Stephan?

  But then again, you walk in Jack's house, and there are 30 pairs of shoes. The dining room is a ping pong table.

• 2:09:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:09:34Graham Stephan?

  The furniture is completely mismatched. And there are steps on the walls.

• 2:09:39Jack Selby?

  The new house is gonna be nicer. It's gonna have, you know, I'm gonna dress it up well. In fact, maybe I'll put some pictures here, or at some future episode.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:47Jack Selby?

  Of the before and after Old House New House.

• 2:09:48Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, you gotta subscribe, because in like two months, you're gonna see this new set, and it's gonna be amazing. It's gonna look incredible.

• 2:09:56Jack Selby?

  Oh yeah, we have a big announcement to make here on the Ice Coffee Hour, guys. This set that we've been using for the past few years, it will no longer be the set of the Ice Coffee Hour. Okay, if you want to get a behind the scenes glance at the set, tell you what, we'll post a picture on our members only page. Okay, we'll also unveil it as soon as it's done done. And I'm telling you right now, the Ice Coffee Hour is going to have a massive, massive upgrade. Massive upgrade.

• 2:10:24Graham Stephan?

  How about this for the members? Do a tour of the warehouse.

• 2:10:27Jack Selby?

  Sure.

• 2:10:28Graham Stephan?

  That's cool. What are you gonna turn this bedroom into? Guest bedroom.

• 2:10:32Jack Selby?

  Okay. This is a guest bedroom in Graham's house and we've long overstayed our welcome. And on top of that, it's just so small in here. Like you guys can't really tell how tiny this room is, but it's cramped. I hit my head on that light all the time. And so we are going to be making an upgrade and it will be insane. That's all I'm saying. Not many podcasts out there that are gonna have a set like the Ice Coffee Hour.

• 2:10:51Graham Stephan?

  It is beautiful. And the funny thing is too, I do really good work from the bedroom. Like my favorite is to be in bed with my laptop, coffee to my side and just work.

• 2:11:02Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:02Graham Stephan?

  And so I'm going to use this as my office to work in. And I just work from the bed. I don't know what it is about that, just waking up and just being in a bed. And we have windows over here that overlook the tree and everything. So like, I'm looking forward to having that.

• 2:11:17Jack Selby?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 2:11:18Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:18Jack Selby?

  Yeah, I like that. It's a nice bedroom. It's got a attached bathroom too. It's nice. It's en suite.

• 2:11:25Jack Selby?

  Good talk. Are you gonna buy a new house?

• 2:11:28Graham Stephan?

  Am I?

• 2:11:29Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:30Graham Stephan?

  I, so Jeremy has been trying to get me to buy a new house. Like every week, he's like sending me listings and like, look at this and look at this. And he's like, my agent found a house and we could go see it this weekend. I'm like, no Jeremy. But I do look at the market daily.

• 2:11:47Jack Selby?

  Me too.

• 2:11:47Graham Stephan?

  And I would say if there's a house that came up that is perfect, and if I could get it at a price that it just, I'd be dumb to turn it down. I'd do it.

• 2:11:59Jack Selby?

  Hmm, what's the price range?

• 2:12:01Graham Stephan?

  It just, it's, it sounds dumb. It's less about the range and it's more about how good of a deal I could get. So it's like, if it's worth this, but I could buy it for this. I'll buy it. Huh. But it's gotta be, but it's gotta be perfect. And there are very few places that I've seen that have been perfect. In fact, in the last three years, there has only ever been two places in Vegas that I loved. One of them, I couldn't get at the price that I thought I would need to pay to do that. If you go back in time, do you wish you bought it? No, no, I'm happy without the house. Because the, the monthly increase, because where I'm at now, I have like a 2.8% interest rate.

• 2:12:44Graham Stephan?

  I put so little money down, it's, it's, it's not stressful for me to be here. Spending the money in the other place would, that additional stress just wasn't worth it. Like I, I would get a benefit, like a happiness boost of five, but I get a stress boost of seven. Right. And so that's not worth it. So I need a happiness boost and a stress boost to either be lower or the same. And this was not, but it was a beautiful house. The other one sold for 15 million dollars, but the house was perfect. I'm talking like as perfect as you could possibly get as a house. This was it. It was one of a kind. It's truly trophy property with a view of the strip, with a yard.

• 2:13:27Graham Stephan?

  It was, everything was perfect, but obviously it's 15 million bucks. I can't do that. But, but if that house were six, I would have done it in a heartbeat. Heartbeat, I would, I would find a way to make that work. That's cool. So if it got sold for less than 50% of its value, then you would have made it work? Way less, 15 million to six, yeah. Oh yeah, but it's just, it wouldn't. But I, I bet at some point, there will be a perfect place at a perfect price. It's gonna happen. Okay. But it could take 10 years. Huh, well, I'm excited to see it. So there you have it. Every day, it's like unboxing a pack of Pokemon cards. When I check the, the market. Yeah. And I see what's on Zillow, it's like, oh, there's a new listing that came up. Let's see that. Right. Yeah, it's cool. I look at houses all the time, too.

• 2:14:11Graham Stephan?

  Final question, this is kind of an interesting question. We've asked quite a few people on the podcast. Uh oh. Would you rather fight 100?

• 2:14:19Jack Selby?

  Duck-sized horses, or one-horse-sized duck?

• 2:14:23Speaker 01

  Well, one-horse-sized duck, for sure.

• 2:14:24Jack Selby?

  Andre?

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:14:26Jack Selby?

  Thank you so much for coming on the Ice

• 2:14:27Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:14:27Jack Selby?

  This was a blast. Great to talk to you. Nice watch.

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  Thank you, likewise.

• 2:14:31Jack Selby?

  By the way, oh, thank you very much, Graham. Nice watch. Mmm, it's a Casio. Thank you guys so much for watching. It really means a lot. Shout out Andre. Andre's information will be linked down below in the description. Shout out that health thing that you did in Thailand.

• 2:14:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:14:45Jack Selby?

  Shout out the other thing that you shouted out, the biomarker thing that you guys got tested.

• 2:14:49Graham Stephan?

  Function health. And don't forget to sign up for the memberships to see the tour. Again, Mikey, our editor, loves this. He's been telling us to promote the memberships more. We've been terrible about it, but it really helps support Mikey. So just, you know, do that for Mikey. I'm sure he'd really appreciate it. And you get to see all of the episodes before they go live publicly. You get to see them in full, without any censors or anything like this. And I think you'll like it. And if you don't like it, you could always just cancel. But don't, but don't do that.

• 2:15:20Jack Selby?

  Shout out Gavin. Thank you for listening to the audio. Thank you, guys, for watching so much. We wouldn't be here without you. Thank you, next time.

• 2:15:35Speaker 05

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