‘East of Eden’ Series Premiere, ‘Slow Horses’ S6E3, and Cindy Holland Leaves Paramount. Plus, Best TV of the Century Honorable Mentions.

Chris and Andy talk about the news that streaming executive Cindy Holland is leaving Paramount ahead of the company’s merger with Warner Bros. Discovery and what that means for HBO head Casey Bloys (2:11). Then they discuss a pair of new shows in HBO’s ‘War’ (23:54) and Netflix’s ‘East of Eden’ adaptation (30:08). Later, they recap ‘Slow Horses’ Season 6, Episode 3 (39:55). Finally, they highlight a handful of shows that didn’t make The New York Times’ “100 Best TV Shows of the 21st Century” list (49:53). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Speaker 03

  I need sports staff to clear the room.

• 1:08Speaker 04

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• 1:11Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me on the other line, he's about to be very happy or very mad because of the Atlanta Braves. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:27Andy Greenwald?

  Why are you hanging out to dry like that? Your emotional life is also in the balance here. It's not just me.

• 1:32Chris Ryan?

  I just keep having podcasts during this Phillies Braves series, so all I get is highlights or lowlights, you know?

• 1:37Andy Greenwald?

  I must say, there was something quite peaceful. Obviously, we should talk about what we're going to talk about today. But there was something quite peaceful about the rhythm of my last few autumns in which work or travel has denied me the opportunity to have my intestines ripped out through my face. You know what I mean? And so the fact that actually tonight, we're recording on Thursday, is lining up so I can watch the game worries me.

• 1:59Chris Ryan?

  It's going to be a fun text message thread from you. Andy, today on the pod, we're going to talk a little bit about the reshuffle over at the, I guess, newly formed Warner Mount Para Brothers, where we've got some TV executive news that does pertain to a lot of what we want to talk about on this pod. Also, wanted to hit two new shows that are premiering this week. War on HBO and East of Eden on Netflix. We both have some book reports, some show and tell for that. And then we were going to talk about the third episode of Slow Horses, as well as some shows that we wanted to shine a light on that did not make the New York Times Top 100 list, which we've been talking about over the last couple of episodes, which has been really quite interesting to see all the conversation about it.

• 2:43Chris Ryan?

  Andy and I went on Wesley Morris's podcast Cannonball, and you could check us out on that show, talking about the list. And we've discussed it. I talked about it with Joe a little bit. Great to see you, man. You're working in New York, so thank you for making time to talk about the thing that brings us together, and that's people moving up and down the corporate ladder.

• 3:08Andy Greenwald?

  It really gets me up in the morning and down at night, I guess. Yeah.

• 3:12Chris Ryan?

  Here is the headline from Deadline, or rather, the sort of lead paragraph from deadline.com. Cindy Holland is leaving Paramount Skydance, where she was chair of direct-to-consumer, having previously served as an advisor to Skydance CEO David Ellison. Today, I think, which was two days ago, is her last day. The move, which has been rumored for the past week, leaves Casey Blois, chairman and CEO of HBO and HBO Max Content as the presumed streaming head of the combined Paramount WBD. Holland hinted at this in her email to staff, indicating that Ellison had shared with her his plan for the leadership of the combined HBO Max and Paramount streamer,

• 3:55Chris Ryan?

  and it involved him, quote, "optimizing for HBO's stability." AKA going with Casey Blois. Something Holland supported, she said in her email to the staff. Obviously, Cindy Holland only at Paramount for about a year, a little bit more than a year. We talked about her as a figure in this industry a couple of times over the year, especially when she got hired. She was instrumental in building out Netflix's original TV programming, had her hands on Stranger Things, on House of Cards, et cetera, and was brought over to Paramount, I think, to diversify their programming or to deleverage them from a world where Taylor Sheridan had five, six, seven shows on the air,

• 4:39Chris Ryan?

  because Taylor Sheridan is leaving and going to Universal. Whether or not that was tied to Cindy Holland's leadership, I don't know. But now we have this major change, and we have a much clearer picture of what the future of the kind of TV we talk about is going to look like here. What was your first reaction when you saw this?

• 4:57Andy Greenwald?

  My first reaction was, it feels good when you can make people's dreams come true. And I have it on good authority that Casey's number-one dream in this massive promotion was leading the A Block on The Watch's Thursday podcast. So the Make-A-Wish Foundation strikes again, and I'm sure this is going to stay as the best thing that happened to him this week. That makes me glad.

• 5:16Chris Ryan?

  I love the idea that we're like Walter Cronkite, and people are like, what's Walter going to talk about in the opening segment? It's like...

• 5:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, no, my God. Do you think David Ellison is like, if we lost The Watch, we've lost the war?

• 5:27Chris Ryan?

  Sure, that's the war he's worried about.

• 5:30Andy Greenwald?

  That's the biggest war facing him. So there's a bunch of different ways into this. And one of the first ways is it's definitely not any reason to celebrate when someone loses their job, particularly because I think that Cindy Holland's hiring by Ellison was interesting. Interesting because for as much as we want to, or maybe we tend to look at these massive mergers through very reductive, binary lenses, there is more nuance here. And I'm not just saying this because we would like to work for Paramount someday. That is not part of it. It is literally that for every Barry Weiss that David Ellison has hired, he hires a Cindy Holland. And Cindy Holland came to Paramount and almost immediately, quote-unquote, "unEllisoned" it

• 6:13Andy Greenwald?

  in the sense of if we think that everything that this guy and his father have done has been sort of red-pilled, like decoupling from Taylor Sheridan, who really is more of a libertarian. I listened to you and Van, and I have some new insight into the validity of private jet travel.

• 6:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:28Andy Greenwald?

  Mixed. My point is, when this news broke, like in the room that I'm working in, someone said, oh, no, Paramount just started caring about women. Like genuinely, she was beginning to program Paramount, and we haven't seen really her fingerprints on the schedule yet. It'll be a couple of months or years until we do, if we do at all now. But that they definitely were changing the culture in terms of the types of shows that they were greenlighting and what they were interested in representing in the marketplace. So that is unfortunate and interesting. The second point is, when this whole deal started even a year ago, when it was seeming that Netflix was going to buy HBO, like one thing that I think you and I can attest, and I don't think this is reporting, I think that Matt Bellany, who actually does reporting, would say the same thing,

• 7:13Andy Greenwald?

  is that, God, the amazing thing about Casey is he keeps his powder dry. Like, he does not seem that bothered. And I think that is just genetically who he is. But I also think that we now have months, years, decades of evidence that somehow HBO has succeeded by just letting the excellence do the talking and that it manages to keep on rolling despite all kinds of outrageous mergers, whether it was Time Warner, whether it was AOL, Discovery, and now this one. And so it makes a lot of sense that Ellison would want to maintain stability at HBO. It's interesting that he also has signaled that he's going to keep the head of CNN to maintain stability there, at least for now.

• 7:54Chris Ryan?

  Your guy, Mark Thompson.

• 7:56Andy Greenwald?

  That's my guy, Joe. Fair and balanced.

• 7:59Chris Ryan?

  Poster of him right next to Aaron Nola.

• 8:03Andy Greenwald?

  My hopes. I have so much hope pinned on these two gentlemen tonight and in the near future. No, it's just that if you have someone who has not only proven over the past decade that he can lead HBO's particular brand in the marketplace and navigate everything that's going on, but also, and I think this is crucial, Casey in the last few years has proved that he is also able to program genre IP content by welcoming the DC shows and Harry Potter into the HBO universe. And then also what he did with HBO Max, which fell under his umbrella, and he immediately programmed The Pit. So it is exactly the kind of, kind of like almost doing your homework before you realize that you've enrolled in graduate school performance

• 8:45Andy Greenwald?

  that would make him the obvious heir apparent to lead all programming, not just maintain his role at HBO.

• 8:51Chris Ryan?

  There's so many different sort of paths we can follow from this. But the one that's so interesting is what you just suggested, which is that in some ways, Blois has been training for this for years or proving the theorem of this for years. When the HBO Max experiment started, and it was going to be like HBO's over here, but over here is going to be like an elevated TBS, TNT kind of show. And, you know, they've had hits and misses. I think over time...

• 9:21Chris Ryan?

  In my experience, audiences have been telling us and telling networks or companies, I don't want to think too hard about where to find the things I want to find. I just want them presented to me and I will accept a Kaley Cuoco-like kind of family drama or spy show next to Somebody Somewhere or I May Destroy You. And that, you know, that as long as the shows are good, people are happy to have that variety of stuff to choose from. I think that what that leads me to is what's going to happen to these networks, but really these verticals and really these apps and really these streaming services.

• 10:04Chris Ryan?

  So today in The Hollywood Reporter, they got Casey to talk a little bit about what's happening and he was gracious and was just like, I'm going to let David talk about what his vision for, you know, the management of the service is going to be. But what he did suggest is that essentially that he would view this as more of a bundle than like a merger, you know, that there is not going to be HBO mount where Game of Thrones is sitting next to Lioness. Now, there may be some-

• 10:34Andy Greenwald?

  I'm so sorry for your loss.

• 10:36Chris Ryan?

  I mean, that's just my living room, dog. You know what I mean?

• 10:38Andy Greenwald?

  There it is.

• 10:40Chris Ryan?

  But there's, that there's not going to be necessarily, now, will that, will that mean on HBO, you can opt in to also having all of Paramount content? Or on Paramount, you can do the same for HBO? I'm sure that there will be something like that. The TV-ification of all TV again is hilarious to me. I mean, Ted Sarandos just did an upfront or a talk about the inevitability of channels hitting Netflix. You know, we're going back to the way things were in a lot of ways. So I'm fascinated to see the actual user experience play out here and how that relates back to Casey's new responsibilities. But you're so right. I mean, this guy has been getting ready to program beyond cocktail parties in New York

• 11:25Chris Ryan?

  and Los Angeles for a very long time.

• 11:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and it's also just a smart, I mean, hopefully we'll get the chance to talk to him about this on the record, but, you know, I'm sorry, I'm a broken record. I've just been suffused with this HBO stuff because I'm reading that Tinderbox book. And like, it's just so interesting to think about the subtle evolution of what it means to not be TV to be HBO. Because if you go back to Michael Fuchs, who was like the first head of programming from the 80s into the 90s, he, his whole, I mean, he was a complicated guy, but like his programming strategy boiled down to if they're doing it, we're not. Like, that is entirely it. If something came across his desk that felt like it could live on any other channel, it was an instant no. And he only said yes to the things that, that wouldn't.

• 12:08Andy Greenwald?

  That isn't necessarily a successful strategy in an era when so many companies are primed to sell prestige content and also need to get the same type of eyeballs or like advertiser desired types of eyeballs as HBO. HBO lost its, you know, the uniqueness of its fiefdom a lot of years ago. So what Casey has sort of evolved the brand into mean is, so it is TV, but what's our HBO version of it? And in a way, that conversation started with Game of Thrones, which they, you know, which isn't really thought of this way anymore. But when it premiered, it was a big swing for them, not just because of the expense, but because it was on the same channel at the same time as Sopranos.

• 12:49Andy Greenwald?

  And so I think if we go back and read a lot of the early coverage of it or reviews, there's probably a lot of like handholding in the sense of, don't worry, there's a lot of complicated men talking in rooms here. Like, it's not that discordant with Boardwalk Empire, you know, and then the dragons came later. So it was kind of a gateway drug towards what does it mean for HBO to do these types of shows? And now we are living in a world and doing a podcast where we cover lanterns and the pit. And there are superhero shows and medical shows on every service. But what makes these distinctly quote unquote HBO? And I say that knowing that the pit is Max. But it's just a very, very smart, I think, self-directed evolution that has not necessarily intentionally, but has clearly led to this moment.

• 13:35Andy Greenwald?

  And we'll see how it plays out across, you know, now that he has even more channels potentially to play with. But what do you make of the overall strategy of post-Rob Bonta fumbling the bag, David Ellison making peace with the town, making peace with the industry, and basically preaching stability? Not just stability, but abundance, right? Saying, we're going to release, we're staying in Hollywood, we're going to make more movies here, we're going to make 30 theatrical releases a year. CNN's not going away or changing. HBO is not changing. Like, really trying to preach stability. Is this likely to happen in your opinion? Or is this just good optics for transitioning away from, fuck you guys, I'm going to Nashville?

• 14:19Chris Ryan?

  I have seen enough public negotiations take place in the world of entertainment and sports over the last 15 years of kind of professionally observing this stuff that I can recognize, say, rattling when I see it. And I think I was seeing that on both the Paramount side and the, and the state's attorney general's side. There was a resignation, I think, among people that once Netflix didn't get this, that this was about, this was going to happen. And yes, I agree with Fantasy, who talks all the time on the big picture of like, I don't think this needed to take place at all.

• 14:53Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 14:54Chris Ryan?

  But once it does, and once the ball's rolling downhill, like kicking it off the mountain is not an option. You know, kicking that ball off the, off the hill is not an option. So like, you've got to finish it and you've got to, you've got to land it. I, I, I am very open to the idea that there is certainly not going to be like a kind of political ideology behind the programming. I don't think that TV works that way. I don't think entertainment works that way. I haven't really sensed yet like a few, like now we can all pitch Paramount in peace. Like, but it's only been two days, but I don't know if I, if I detect a palpable relief

• 15:36Chris Ryan?

  as much as a, you know, I, I don't, frankly, I guess I don't really think that Cindy Holland would have been a bad choice. Like, I'm very, very like excited to see what Casey Boyes does with all the different tranches of Paramount and Warner Brothers and how he defines those. And maybe if there's going to be some contraction in there, I don't know. But I don't think really that, like, I've been able to sense a, sense of like, ah, now we can get back to regularly scheduled programming. The thing I was fascinated by, oh, sorry, if you wanted to respond to that.

• 16:07Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, I think it's just a good observation. I think that, you know, one thing that I've hopefully consistently said and continues to be the case is that fewer buyers sucks. Like, it doesn't matter if they, they will, they will continue to operate these planks, I think, as distinct operations for a while. And, but I don't know how fuzzy that distinction gets when there's one person in charge of all of it. I mean, it's certainly possible, but I would imagine that coming from that experience that you were alluding to when Kevin Riley and Sarah Aubrey were running HBO Max as a distinct buyer in the marketplace from HBO, and they bought Station 11, for example, which doesn't, or HAX, for example, which, both of which could have easily lived on HBO. I would imagine that Casey is loathe to enter into a situation like that again, where he

• 16:50Andy Greenwald?

  is actively having his Francesca Orsi and drama bidding against her equivalent at Paramount for, for things. So I think that it's just generally, there's fewer buyers, which means, which is, which is going to have downstream negative effects of the industry. And I don't think that has changed. I don't think that has changed at all, which I still think is massively a bummer. But in terms of like the immediate reaction or the immediate like fallout for the consumer, this has to have been relatively, for people who are paying attention, this is a relatively stable outcome.

• 17:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:22Andy Greenwald?

  Because your HBO isn't going anywhere and your Paramount, I mean, honestly, what is Paramount right now? It is the place you watch your Taylor Sheridan shows. Taylor's leaving, his shows may continue, but what are the other, like, I guess Star Trek, but that's sort of in flux as well?

• 17:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I was just looking at the Paramount IP and I have to say that the idea of, I think that HBO has shown a pretty consistent ability to develop and make things when they're ready to be made. And they will be pretty merciless and pretty, pretty stringent about like saying like, okay, Blood Moon or whatever that Game of Thrones show with Naomi Watts was, or, you know, going all the way back to Noah Baumbach making the corrections, it, it'll be like, if it's right and it's ready, then it's good. But it's not going to be, hey, we need to make a Minority Report series, or we need

• 18:18Chris Ryan?

  to make, you know, a gritty Beverly Hills cop reimagining. You know, I think it's going to be because somebody came in with a good idea and they thought they could make a good show out of it. Now, I suppose that would be the most interesting thing is if- If the rubber hits the road in terms of demand and in terms of Paramount saying like, we actually need X amount of minutes put up on this streaming service a year to satisfy shareholder demand and show growth or whatever it is. And does that outpace the usual development process that the HBO sensibility is or aesthetic is?

• 18:56Andy Greenwald?

  I think the question, the other question that is relevant here is what is actually keeping the Paramount brand afloat? Because for the purposes of this podcast, we talk about the shows that come across our transom as interesting or as appalling as the case may be with certain Taylor Sheridan shows. I would imagine that there is a not insignificant number of their subscribers that subscribe because of sports, that subscribe because of Nickelodeon Kids content, that subscribe because of Star Trek, or subscribe because they want to watch the CBS comedies that they, or stream them, or whatever the case may be. So really, the conversation might be less about what Casey does to Paramount Plus as an elite brand, which is going to take years to figure out.

• 19:39Andy Greenwald?

  And before we figure that out, we're going to see what Cindy had in mind, unless he comes in and really rips things up. So really, it's more about comparing the discovery content in terms of how deep the library is, how deep that bench is, and if they decide to merge some of that stuff. I'm not really sure. But like, I don't, I'm not saying this to pick sides. Like, I think, generally, I remain quite bearish on this merger and annoyed by it. But I will say that I don't fully understand what Paramount's identity is. And maybe that's what the Cindy hire was, I don't know why I'm calling her Cindy, I don't know her, but like, the Cindy Holland hire was meant to address that. But those types of shifts take years, and she didn't get that.

• 20:16Chris Ryan?

  What happens to the 40 shows she greenlit and to the overall deals that she signed? Obviously, I think the incoming administration is pretty savvy, and they're not going to be like, ugh, the Duffer Brothers, we got to work with these guys. But, you know, she did a good job going around and building out this talent stable, and I think put a lot of stuff in motion. Is there an inevitable, like, we'll see where we're at that happens when there's an administration change, or what?

• 20:46Andy Greenwald?

  I think it depends on the overall needs of the parent company. This merger has been done with an enormous amount of debt, and so there's definitely going to be some clock watching in terms of return on investment. The only example I would point to in recent years is what has happened with Amazon and Prime Video, where Jen Psalke left the company, Peter Friedlander, who we spoke to when he was at Netflix, not on, we have spoken to him, you know, off the record or about things of the business when he was at Netflix, he took over. And one thing that I can say is that he has been very deliberative.

• 21:27Andy Greenwald?

  And so the examples of what he is doing aren't necessarily there yet in terms of what's being programmed or what's coming on to the service. The way you see someone's hand is executive shufflings, you know, org chart redos. And then you just hear things like, for example, I don't even think we talked about it, but like, there's the Robocop series that is coming from, that is in production now, starring Dan Stevens and coming from Peter Ako, who worked on Lodge 49. It seems pretty cool. My understanding is that that was something that was in purgatory. And then when it reached his desk and he considered it, Peter was like, yes. So it's a slower, more deliberative process, and things that were no's can become yeses.

• 22:06Chris Ryan?

  You're telling me robots are going to get involved in law enforcement? I'm interested.

• 22:09Andy Greenwald?

  Couldn't be me, or couldn't be us. But like, yeses become noes, noes become yeses. And, but, Amazon is a very slow, slow, slow process, even before he got there, because Amazon can afford to be. And I'm really curious what the internal metrics are in terms of how quickly this show needs to get on with itself. Because it is, this is not Bezos money. This is Oracle wishes. I don't even know what you call it.

• 22:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, and they're also committed to putting out 30 theatrical films a year. So yeah, where this money is going and coming and how the verticals of, of saying, you know, like, is Mission Impossible, is that something where, for instance, do you want to do a Mission Impossible franchise reboot and try and find the next Ethan Hunt? Do you want to do an MI, you know, an MI show that's about like, the spy world? You know, I'm very fascinated to see the first dozen stories we get about like, X show is.

• 23:12Andy Greenwald?

  You're giving these ideas away.

• 23:13Chris Ryan?

  I know. If I'm the only person who's thought of that, then shame on the city. Shame on you, Karen Bass.

• 23:20Andy Greenwald?

  I want to, just keep throwing, she's a cynic eater for all these ideas.

• 23:25Chris Ryan?

  On Bezos watch, there will be Ethan Hunt shows for all.

• 23:27Andy Greenwald?

  John Voight, origin story. Oh, I guess that's actually the original Mission Impossible series. I guess we've done that. Do you want to comment on reports that some of these things, like Casey's elevation, like the renegotiation with the current head of CNN? Are these, are these sops to the vibe shift?

• 23:48Chris Ryan?

  Oh, you think, you think the blue tsunami scared David Ellison into keeping Mark Thompson?

• 23:54Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think Mark Thompson has his job today? Because David Ellison doesn't want to face Senator James Talarico and explain his actions?

• 24:00Chris Ryan?

  The people with a lot of money in the world probably need to be sensitive to the fact that the world is not always going to be the same.

• 24:07Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know. Did you watch Pete Pegset's speech? Seems like it's going to be fine.

• 24:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and I personally hope that he goes to prison. So, you know, like, I just don't think we're always going to, I'm not being cocky, and I'm not like, saying like, oh, I think that like, in two years, the Trump fever's over and everything's going to go back to Friday Night Lights and Parks and Rec. I do think that, like, we're not going to live in this moment forever. And one of the things that I think has been a hallmark of the last six years is like, Hollywood sort of falling over itself to try and catch up with where they think a culture war is going. And I would say that one of the things I admire about Casey Boyz's administration at HBO is he has not done that, either way.

• 24:51Andy Greenwald?

  Fair.

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• 26:26Andy Greenwald?

  We don't need the jingle twice. What about a third time? Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars. Seems like you just started. Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app. Time to read the timeline. Fine. No one deals more deals than Priceline. Please stop.

• 26:50Chris Ryan?

  Priceline.

• 26:51Andy Greenwald?

  Touche. Priceline.

• 26:53Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk a little bit about some new shows. Let's get off the business and talk about the art of TV. How about that? Two big ones this week, one an HBO show, one a Netflix show. Andy and I each watched separately. Like, I didn't, I didn't watch War, and Andy hasn't checked out East of Eden yet, although we'll both do that going forward. But why don't you go first and tell me a little bit about War?

• 27:14Andy Greenwald?

  I'm excited for you to check out War, and I'm curious what the response is going to be. Because, so War is an HBO show, but it is very much a co-production with Sky. It is also airing on Thursday nights, so I think the premiere episode is coming on tonight. So it's definitely carved out a little bit into that sort of liminal space between an HBO Max show and an HBO original, where it fits. It's created by George Kay, who did Lupin for Netflix and also hijack, I believe. And we don't really have a term for it, but we should, for this very particular genre of super slick UK content, which is like,

• 27:55Andy Greenwald?

  There's almost like a house style for British shows made at a certain price point and maybe made for an international audience. And this is very much that in that like, you know, the London Eye has never looked shinier, incredibly crisp, several rose suits and like beautiful shots of canary wharf and people dining in the city and like a very, very flash aspirational vision of the city that you and I love very much. And if you like that, plus like some just ultimate that guy and that gal British actors, you're gonna like the show. But I gotta say, it is the kind of premise that just knocks down doors and gets yeses in every room you would ever bring it into.

• 28:38Andy Greenwald?

  It's kind of surprising that it hasn't really been done before.

• 28:41Chris Ryan?

  So what's the premise?

• 28:42Andy Greenwald?

  And we should, we should note that the show has been greenlit for two seasons. And I didn't even realize this as we were starting, the second season cast is already announced and it's likely already filming. But basically the show, it's called War. Every season will be about two warring law firms in London tackling or tussling over a very, very big case. The first season is a divorce case that pits a like absolutely like bespoke, incredibly powerful firm called Cathcart's in the show against a scrappy husband and wife firm. And the case is a massive divorce between HBO stalwart Dominic West, who plays a billionaire

• 29:21Andy Greenwald?

  with a bit of a wandering eye and Sienna Miller as his actress wife. And the focus, though, is very much on the firms and how they're building the case and intrigue. And it just does this incredibly slick introduction of characters and of class and of who's on what team in a way that is absolutely like kind of preposterous, but also quite enjoyable because there's an actor like Pip Torrance, who is an Hall of Fame elite that guy. He's the incredibly tall, bald person that you've seen like in many, many shows. I'm trying to think of some of his bigger ones, like he was on Preacher, he's on The Crown, he's been in Star Wars. You recognize him.

• 30:01Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 30:02Andy Greenwald?

  And he is the guy wearing the like the bespoke suit, arching an eyebrow when Dominic West denies being unfaithful to his wife. And that alone buys it so much time. But it's just so instantly comfortable with itself and knows what it is that it's a lot of fun, especially since it's treating legal maneuverings like it is, you know, global geopolitics.

• 30:23Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 30:24Andy Greenwald?

  And I was interested to note that they've already, they've already got the second season going and it's about a different type of case, but they've already cast Marisa Tomei and Kelly McDonald and David Harewood. Like they're just doing the thing where you fill out the, the call sheet. Like in the show, Patrick Fabian from Better Call Saul is on it, looking awesome, full silver fox. It's a very comfortable show.

• 30:46Chris Ryan?

  You doing a British accent?

• 30:47Andy Greenwald?

  And I was impressed by, no.

• 30:49Chris Ryan?

  Good.

• 30:50Andy Greenwald?

  Not, it's, it's a co-pro, baby.

• 30:51Chris Ryan?

  Not that Patrick Fabian couldn't do an amazing British accent, I wouldn't put anything past him.

• 30:55Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, no, but, but it's like, here's how, I'll make it, put it in terms you'd understand. He's the U R Bernard of the show in that they have an international player pathway exemption so they can keep him on the squad.

• 31:04Chris Ryan?

  Did you say that in English?

• 31:06Andy Greenwald?

  You, you get it.

• 31:08Chris Ryan?

  I get it. We have a listener base that doesn't know about Eagles development projects.

• 31:15Andy Greenwald?

  I make this show for you and for Shiel Kapadia. And I don't answer to anybody else.

• 31:21Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 31:22Andy Greenwald?

  Anyway, it's, it's just a very light, bright entertainment. And maybe the way to fold it into our larger conversation is this show would have thrived on Apple, it would have thrived on Netflix. I would be shocked if they didn't bid on it. And it's probably a, it's a relatively cost effective and potentially splashy feather in HBO's cap.

• 31:40Chris Ryan?

  That's really good. I mean, I'm gonna check it out. So is Sky made it and HBO picked it up for our shores or was it a co-pro?

• 31:49Andy Greenwald?

  I, I think it's a straight co-pro. They both ordered two seasons of it together.

• 31:54Chris Ryan?

  I, I'm trying to detect any semblance of like reservations about it in, in your voice. Like, are you like, it's good because it's like a soapy, fun melodrama? Is it, is it like transcending of that?

• 32:09Andy Greenwald?

  It depends what mood you're in. It is so slick that you can barely hold on to it. And there's a chance you just slide right off the building, like when Peter Parker loses his powers in, you know, in the Spider-Man movies that you love. But, but I guess my question with these things always is, is like, can it lean more into the premise and actually have the kind of delirious fun that the pilot suggests that it wants to have? Or are we going to spend more time with the young, class conscious barrister who's getting pressured by his posh girlfriend to get a better job and thus he's going to be a double agent between the two legal firms?

• 32:45Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 32:46Andy Greenwald?

  Like, these are sorts of things that get shows greenlit because you're, you're sort of covering all of your bases and telling all of the types of stories. But there's something that is so deliciously preposterous about the show that I kind of wish it would lean that way. So my sense is that it's not like I'm gonna fall out of love with the show, I'm just gonna kind of get bored three episodes in.

• 33:03Chris Ryan?

  It happens.

• 33:04Andy Greenwald?

  That's my, that's my worry.

• 33:05Chris Ryan?

  That's a, that's a big concern with modern television. I'll tell you a little bit about East of Eden. Obviously that's based on the John Steinbeck novel and has been, I'm, I'm almost surprised about the, the sheer amount of pieces I've seen written about it, written about the adaptation, profiles of Zoe Kazan, who is the co-creator or creator and writer. She's credited writer on all of the episodes, co-writes one of them. She works with Jeb Stuart, who is a really seasoned screenwriter and together those two are going to be adapting Lonesome Dove next for Netflix, as we talked about a couple of episodes ago. I think East of Eden is phenomenal. I've gotten deeper into the series now. It comes out tonight, today.

• 33:47Chris Ryan?

  I, I think the show that I would compare it to, which might be a little niche, is several years ago, Kenneth Onigan did an adaptation of Howard's End.

• 33:59Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yes, it was great.

• 34:01Chris Ryan?

  And that's what I kept thinking about while I was watching this East of Eden, both in its deep, deep passion for the, for the material that it was adapting, but also it's like intellectual and emotional engagement with the possibilities of that story. And there is a burgeoning kind of like Kathy wasn't like that kind of conversation when it comes to Florence Pugh's character in East of Eden. And what liberties people should or shouldn't take with masterpieces of, of literature when they're adapting them. And, and you know, this is extending all the way to lanterns when it comes to, that's not my Hal Jordan kind of stuff.

• 34:42Chris Ryan?

  But watching East of Eden, I was immediately just sucked in by the level of competence and talent, obviously on screen and behind the camera. First of all, the writing is gorgeous. The stuff that feels like embellishments or additions, they only deepen and enrichen the experience for me. The performances uniformly are fantastic. I'll specifically highlight Christopher Abbott and Mike Faeser from earlier episodes of, of the show, playing two brothers who have a complicated relationship with their father, played by Tracy Letts, which I identify with as somebody who has a complicated relationship with Tracy Letts. Yeah.

• 35:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 35:25Chris Ryan?

  And obviously Florence Pugh, for people who are familiar with the East of Eden story, Florence Pugh's character Kathy comes into their lives and creates volcanic change. It was shot, for the most part, by Stuart Dreiberg, who worked on early Jane Campion material, like The Piano, and also shot Lone Star for John Sales. And it is gorgeous. I think they did The Badlands, Days of Heaven, we shoot from 5:00 AM to 6:00 AM and 5:00 PM to 6:00 PM. And it's like every shot is magic hour, every shot is like this purple, pink, rose sky and like, you know, gnats flying over cornfields.

• 36:09Chris Ryan?

  And it's just like, how did you guys do this? But it's just such a caring, loving, beautiful piece of work. And I think it's thought provoking. If you are the kind of person who's like very, very guarded about books that you love being interpreted in different ways, maybe it's not for you. You know, I would, I would encourage you to, to check it out. And also I just think everybody needs to get over themselves and, and stop acting like, and I will, I will hold this, I will hold that attitude when Lonesome Dove comes out and when they make Andor 2 back in business, you know, like, or whatever the hell happens to like my beloved stuff or whatever we see.

• 36:49Chris Ryan?

  But I'm just trying to say like, this is just such a beautiful piece of work and it's, it's pitched at a tone that I think I needed. Like a real calming, even though there's a lot of violence and even though there's a lot of like emotional devastation, it's just, it's just pitched at a tone that I feel like, I'm like, ah, this is almost like the nourishment you get from reading a good book.

• 37:14Andy Greenwald?

  I love that. First of all, you should just, am I, am I needed on this podcast? That was just like, good God.

• 37:21Chris Ryan?

  I need my guy.

• 37:22Andy Greenwald?

  That was like the end, that was like the end of Lincoln.

• 37:27Andy Greenwald?

  You just pulled that out of nowhere. You were so thoughtful. This is your stump speech. You were great.

• 37:32Chris Ryan?

  But you remember that Howard's End? Did you remember like, you know, Nico Muley's score?

• 37:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 37:37Chris Ryan?

  And Hedy McDonald's direction and Haley Atwell's performance and Lonnigan obviously having like this amazing relationship to the Forster novel, but like creating something that was just so gorgeous out of it.

• 37:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think it's really exciting and I can't wait to watch it. I'm sorry I've fallen behind here. Like

• 37:55Chris Ryan?

  It just came out. You're just a guy.

• 37:57Andy Greenwald?

  But there's, yeah, but I had the preview content. I can't lie to you. But you know, I just kept watching tires. So what am I supposed to do here? I, I, I think there's such an interesting conversation to be had and to continue to have about the spirit of adaptation and, you know, one thing that excites me is what you're saying, that if you have someone who is passionate about material, the passion needs to be the North Star of the adaptation, not necessarily the original text. Because first of all, if someone's passionate about a book, they, they have a relationship to the text. They are not doing it in order to desecrate it or upset it. But the things that interest them in the book might not be the things that interest

• 38:42Andy Greenwald?

  you, who has read the book, and that's okay. What you want, I think, from a successful adaptation is someone else to show you their passion for this. And it may not track directly with the passion that you felt when you read it in high school or at other point in your life, but it should be familiar enough to draw your interest. And then the, the, the test is, does it hold your interest? And, you know, I, the other thing that I would say, just from my perspective here, because, you know, I'm, I'm doing work with Netflix. That's why I'm in New York, is that the executives are, who are, who are working on it are very, very, very excited about it. Not just because, and obviously because they've signed Zoe to do Lonesome Dove, et cetera, et cetera. But it's so interesting, the way, this is in the light of the conversation we were having about changes at Paramount or changes at HBO over time.

• 39:26Andy Greenwald?

  HBO is the consistent, the only consistency in terms of what they're looking for. Every other one of these companies has tried on identities like hats as years have passed. And so to hear Netflix executives excited about what they were able to accomplish in partnership with Zoe in the show are absolutely none of the things that Bella Bajaria talked about in that famous slash infamous New Yorker article from a few years ago that coined the term gourmet cheeseburgers. Now Bella is still there. It doesn't mean that that part of the business has fallen off. But like, when that article came out and we were talking about, is it cake? I don't think you and I thought that we would return to a moment in Netflix where we would be debating like the sumptuousness of a literary adaptation or the reticence or subtlety of it.

• 40:10Andy Greenwald?

  You know, there were other places for that. So I think it's cool, but it is also a sign that nothing ever really stays the same for long in this business. But hopefully, as these things shift, there's always a home for this type of thing.

• 40:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. You know, one of the things that I responded to in watching the first few episodes is the naturalism, and in some cases, the modernity of Abbott, Face and Pugh's performances. But I think that they're very reverent to the material. They may feel, and maybe they feel, it feels modern because I'm familiar with those people as modern people. You know what I mean? Like I, sometimes I can't tell, but there is a lived in, natural kind of humanity to the three characters that I think is very difficult to do in period pieces. Very difficult to do in adaptations of things that people have like this like fixed idea of like, this is how,

• 41:05Chris Ryan?

  this is how Charles Trask talked in my head, you know, and this is what he looked like. And Face brings like a different quality and Abbott brings like a different quality and Pugh certainly brings like a different quality, but they are magnetic performers. The three of them are really, really something.

• 41:20Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that the show correctly captures the dynamic, and it's a subtle dynamic, between Black Widow and Professor X in their limited interactions?

• 41:29Chris Ryan?

  I mean,

• 41:30Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 41:31Chris Ryan?

  There, it's weird that Zoe Kazan would choose East of Eden to introduce Battle World. I thought, uh, some of

• 41:39Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 41:39Chris Ryan?

  Some of the choices she made regarding the legacy virus and cable traversing the, uh, the timeline to try and save mutants was a little bit surprising, but I don't want to spoil too much of East of Eden for you.

• 41:52Andy Greenwald?

  That said, I think you and I are firmly in favor of Tracy Letts being revealed to be the Beyonder. Like, I just think that like,

• 42:01Chris Ryan?

  I was wondering, how long do you think we could have done this for? Like?

• 42:05Andy Greenwald?

  Hours. Like Kai would have had to go home.

• 42:11Andy Greenwald?

  This is, this is, I'm coming alive now. It's like the end of my day, but this is the most exciting, this is the most excited I've been.

• 42:18Chris Ryan?

  Is what, what if in episode six of East of Eden, Battle World started?

• 42:25Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, what if, I mean, what if Doom shows up and he's just like, I'm so sorry. All of this has been a mistake. And I feel like the Trask boys would be like, we knew it.

• 42:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:33Andy Greenwald?

  Like, this has felt wrong from the start. And some thought it was because of the sins of our mother, but really, really, it's because this is a carbon copy of a world that only was created when Steve Rogers went to dance with Haley Atwell, who was playing her character from Howard's End.

• 42:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. People don't understand. Everything is basically just a Marvel spinoff.

• 42:52Andy Greenwald?

  There's layers to this.

• 42:54Chris Ryan?

  Do you want to talk about Slow Horses next? Or would you like to save that for the end?

• 42:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, let's just, because the thing about Slow Horses, Chris, here's the thing about Slow Horses, six seasons in. It remains hard to talk about, um, I find, week to week, for any number of reasons. One of the reasons why it was hard to talk about for me the last two years was because I felt that it had perfected itself and thus didn't change. And consistency is such a good thing and a rare thing in television. But Slow Horses, it had actually reached this kind of point that I think some sitcoms reach, where we would get on and be like, that was fun.

• 43:28Chris Ryan?

  We, we were starting to talk about Slow Horses like it was, like when we check in on Abbott Elementary and we were like, yeah, still a lovely, wonderful, enjoyable experience. I don't have any notes, you know, like this is, this is great.

• 43:43Andy Greenwald?

  That has changed. And I don't know, I should think more about this before I speak about precedent. But Chris, this show fucking rips again. This season, three episodes in, is one of my favorite things of the year. It is an absolute joy. I cannot tell you the amount of willpower it's taking to not watch ahead right now. This episode was at once so deeply Slow Horses, in the sense that like you tune it in to see the relationships between characters that have been built over time and to see maybe a cockeyed different way into some familiar spy scenarios. Yes, yes, yes. But it has a different engine under the hood. It has a different sense of stakes and a different sense of

• 44:28Andy Greenwald?

  gathering storms. And also crucially, it has a sense of surprise. This type, type of surprise that I think maybe you only earn if you've lulled people into a kind of complacency. And I'll leave you with this thought that just like, because I believe this show to just be like a working, successful thing that is going to be brought back every year. So you can't rattle the cages too much, although I knew that there is a body count. The fact that all of this plot of the season, and this is obviously a spoiler, comes from the fact that Diana fucked up.

• 44:58Andy Greenwald?

  Kind of shocked me. I didn't know the show had that in its bag, that it would be unsentimental about a character of whom we've come to accept a certain level of competence or a certain relationship with Jackson and the rest of the team. But this episode was a dazzler.

• 45:14Chris Ryan?

  I was watching, uh, an interview with Tony Gilroy the other day. Uh, I can't remember who he was talking to. It was an

• 45:21Andy Greenwald?

  Uncle Tony.

• 45:22Chris Ryan?

  It was another podcast. It was not ours. And he was talking about how the best writing comes when you ask yourself what a character would really do, not what you want them to do. Not because you've decided on an endpoint where you need this character to get to this place. So they say yes or no. And he was talking a little bit about like, you can see that that happens in stories when there's wild fluctuations in the intelligence of characters. Like they're dumb one scene and then they're genius the next scene. But I was, this was in the back of my head when I was watching episode three. And I think it leapt out at me during the confrontation between Flight and Diana. Which Flight could be a character, and I understand this is adapted from McCarran's novels and there's

• 46:07Chris Ryan?

  depth to all these characters. And if you've read all of them, you see things coming from miles away. But Flight could be a piece of furniture on this show. She could be a cool lady who runs the dogs and kind of shows up in scenes to say, damn it, Jackson, what are you doing? You know? To have her all of a sudden snap into, hey, fuck you and fuck your job to Diana. And all of a sudden, the axis of the show tilts a little bit because not only does Flight turn into a three dimensional character in a second, that you don't have to like read into her. She is literally that on the screen. Diana is now 10 times weaker than when the episode started because

• 46:50Chris Ryan?

  she is losing allies and she's losing material, kind of the weight and muscle of this job with every passing moment as she's compromised by whoever she's compromised by and now is losing internal support. I thought that was great writing. That's an example of like, you can do so much within a show within the margins of a scene and within the margins of a like, we understand that Flight is maybe the sixth or seventh listed character on this show, but it's, she can still be important to where things are going. I was wondering if that made any sense. I mean, do you, do you see what I'm saying?

• 47:23Andy Greenwald?

  It makes sense. I think it's well, I, I think, Chris, I'm going to affirm you. I think you did great. I know we're on different coasts. It's hard to read body language. Maybe I look bored. I was just checking like, you know, the, the starting lineups and stuff, but no, I, I think you're exactly right. And, and I'll take it a step further in terms of like, what we want from writing. It's, it can be a dangerous trap when you are writing, and as we said, this new showrunner took over the season, although there are a lot of experienced hands still in the writers room.

• 47:53Andy Greenwald?

  It can be challenge, extra challenging when you are doing reunions. In the sense that I don't know if, I don't know how many Slow Horses fanatics were waiting for Sid to come back, uh, or expecting Sid to come back. The, the, the chemistry and the banter that Olivia Cook and, and, um, Jack Loudon developed had three hours to develop, I think, before she gets shot in season one. I mean, it's incredibly quick. That said, It's the type of thing that looks really cool in an outline or even on a whiteboard. When you're like Sid and River reacquaint themselves while being chased by Russian hit squad. It's another thing when the scene in practice feels like every single thing I wanted from

• 48:38Andy Greenwald?

  those characters. It hit every note that felt pitch perfect to me in the sense of like it had just the right amount of banter. It had just the right amount of flirtation, had the right amount of wait, who were you again? And also the right amount of like gravitas in the sense that she was shot in the head. She was shot in the head right here. And it played it out over these increasingly frantic and sometimes funny set pieces that never felt clownish, which whereas other pairings or other moments of the show, especially when it was dealing with, you know, as you said, different book plots, but like, I don't know. For me, like the nadir of the show, even though it was a funny scene, was last season when River and co accidentally killed a right wing politician.

• 49:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:23Andy Greenwald?

  Very funny, very unexpected, good, good co River bands. I mean, those characters are fun when placed together, which happened again this week. But like, in service of what exactly? What is going on now? You put it back into this kind of mechanism and we're off to the races.

• 49:40Chris Ryan?

  It's so funny because you bring, bring up the last season because I've stopped worrying too much about what that super story of, of Slow Horses is, or what this is all in service of in terms of like, what are the chess pieces and like, who, what are we, what are we trying to, what endpoint are we trying to get to? And it's more of a vibe thing, but this season does feel more legible to me. I think maybe the mechanism of the cat and mouse stuff, which is a huge part of Slow and Slow Horses is definitely on display in a way that it feels a little bit more dangerous and it feels like their stakes are a little bit higher. And I just got to say, I mean, just to echo what you, you mentioned about Olivia Cook coming back, there's probably a world in which she's, uh, she plays Jean Grey and they can be like, we just won't bring Sid back.

• 50:25Chris Ryan?

  We can figure out something else. Maybe we can bring in a different character that's essentially like doing what Sid's doing. First of all, that's like incredible TV making to be like this character who we've seeded a relationship with five, four years ago is now the co-star of this season. And the lottery ticket that is the two of them together. Also like the, to have the discipline to not put River with anyone else really over the years, even with the like brief Louisa stuff, like to just kind of be like, we're just going to have this guy be like a solo loser for four years, even though everybody in the world is like, when is Jack Loudon going to kiss someone?

• 51:07Chris Ryan?

  And then have him be reunited with this woman who he only got the briefest of moments with and only like the briefest of snapshots of her relationship with is like so good, man. That's what TV is supposed to do.

• 51:18Andy Greenwald?

  Not everyone. My, my, my daughter won't watch the screeners of the new Pride and Prejudice because she's like hashtag not my Darcy.

• 51:25Chris Ryan?

  Oh.

• 51:25Andy Greenwald?

  She thinks, she thinks he's goofy looking. She's out.

• 51:28Chris Ryan?

  Your daughter is, is when she's not marauding lanterns message boards being like, this is not how the Manhunter operates, you know?

• 51:36Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, she's a big Kilowog fan. She wants the rest of the lantern corps.

• 51:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:41Andy Greenwald?

  I, uh, but just to your point about, um, um, oh my God, you just said Louisa.

• 51:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:48Andy Greenwald?

  The let's get Louisa, who seems to be having a very important meeting at 8:00 PM. But you know, again, maybe they're working European hours, no problem.

• 51:55Chris Ryan?

  It's also always dark there, so who can say?

• 51:57Andy Greenwald?

  That's also true. It could have been lunchtime. She, it was just so great. She hasn't been gone that long, but it's like the, the, the, the visual telling of the story of how eager she is to get away from these embarrassing people, the glow up that she's had, and then still have space for her to react to River's grandfather's funeral and the news of that. It's, it's pretty elite. Like we always, like you said, we've talked about the shows in the language of the way we talk about other types of shows, but what we are highlighting now is back to the language of prestige dramas and what we like about them.

• 52:28Chris Ryan?

  Obviously, like I'm, I'm very excited to hear your enthusiasm. Not only that, but like, I think it's pretty rare that I see you go on a little bit of a dip with the show and then come back so, so strong. And it's really like, it's probably, you just, we just don't have enough opportunities to get this deep into a run and have favorite seasons. Like it's, it's a very refreshing experience. Before I let you go, let's just run through some of these shows that we wanted to highlight that were not on the top 100 list. Now, we've really belabored this list.

• 53:01Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, we, we haven't though. We haven't talked about it on the watch very much. You talked about it with Joe.

• 53:07Chris Ryan?

  Perhaps I, maybe I'll just say that I'm surprised and pleasantly surprised with the impact it seems to have made because I think it's led to a lot of interesting conversations. Um, you know, obviously just to reiterate, this was sent out, a ballot was sent out to like 500 people about, um, including critics, showrunners, actors, all sorts of folks. They were allowed to give 10 shows. They must've debuted after the year 2000 or 2000 and on, which is why shows like Sopranos aren't on the list. And if you voted for a show, it wasn't about ranking. It was like one, if you voted for a show, that show had a vote. And then the show with the most votes was Breaking Bad.

• 53:46Andy Greenwald?

  And, and people see still, and we should, people don't seem to understand this on a level that is concerning, that like, the New York Times did not compile this list. The New York Times has a lot to fucking answer for this year, but not this.

• 53:59Chris Ryan?

  They didn't drop anything because they thought it would be cool or move something up because it would be provocative. It is how people vote.

• 54:04Andy Greenwald?

  It is a hundred percent dictabulation of the votes. And yes, and our votes were included in that.

• 54:10Chris Ryan?

  As, as is the case with like the Sight and Sound poll, I think you can feel generational change every so often with these polls happening. And I can't remember, I think I may have said this to Joe last week. I don't think that this list is going to look the same way in five years. I don't think something is going to change about this, whether it's the critical reappraisal of something or people saying, you know what, actually I don't like that, or this wasn't as good as you guys said it was. Whatever it is, I have a feeling things are changing in that regard. There's also just, I think a, a changing critical consensus about what TV does and what TV does well. Regardless, 100 shows are ranked or listed on this, this ballot, uh, on this, on this

• 54:55Chris Ryan?

  project. And Andy and I just wanted to shout out a couple that didn't make the list.

• 54:59Andy Greenwald?

  It's a different project than the other shows we would have put on our list. You know, like, I think, like they're my neck, for the most part, there are a couple on this list that I'm about to share with you that, uh, would have been, that were in contention for my, my top 10, but a lot of the other near misses or finalists are on the list. Just I didn't vote for them.

• 55:21Chris Ryan?

  I'll also make a confession.

• 55:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, please.

• 55:24Chris Ryan?

  That both in my, my list I submitted, but also in the list I made today, I would say that it's obviously like a little bit weighted towards the time period that we've been making some version of this podcast.

• 55:35Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 55:36Chris Ryan?

  Cause I found it a little bit difficult to like, remember, I don't think I had a best of TV 2005, you know? I don't remember as well what was happening back then and going and.

• 55:46Andy Greenwald?

  You don't remember a lot of what was happening in the early 2000s? Do you want to?

• 55:52Chris Ryan?

  It's because they traded Iverson and I was like, brother. Um, so why don't you list off a couple of shows that you, that you love that didn't make the list?

• 56:00Andy Greenwald?

  On your top 10?

• 56:01Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 56:02Andy Greenwald?

  There is, there's a show or two that didn't make the list, right? Like Mindhunter is on your list.

• 56:07Chris Ryan?

  It is, and it did not make the list.

• 56:09Andy Greenwald?

  And that did not make the list, so I won't, I won't share that. I made, I, I started compiling shows for this project that you asked for me and I came up with 17 shows.

• 56:18Chris Ryan?

  I came up with 13.

• 56:19Andy Greenwald?

  That I think are deserving of it.

• 56:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:21Andy Greenwald?

  Um, probably some of them are the same. Should we, should I just run it backwards? It's kind of no particular order, except for the top few.

• 56:27Chris Ryan?

  True.

• 56:28Andy Greenwald?

  So I'm just going to name some. Glow, uh, on Netflix, Alison Brie, Betty Gilpin, absolutely incredible ensemble comedy that I think got dinged because Netflix rescinded its renewal of the final season. And I think that it slipped away from people's consciousness and front of their brains because it didn't finish its story, which is a weird reason to ding something, but everybody had a reason to leave something off. And I think that's as good as any. The Deuce, the less loved, um, David Simon, George Pellicano's collaboration about Times Square in New York and the porn industry. Happy Endings is not on the list, right? It was on Wesley's list and we talked about it.

• 57:04Chris Ryan?

  It's not on the list.

• 57:05Andy Greenwald?

  But the great, great, one of the great just joke per minute sitcoms of this century. Representing my children, although they wouldn't be happy about this now, but at the time, the Nickelodeon show Avatar, The Last Airbender, not the live action version, the cartoon, is the type of cartoon storytelling that would have blown my mind as a kid because it is so expansive and so original.

• 57:27Chris Ryan?

  That's cool. Good shout.

• 57:29Andy Greenwald?

  Broadchurch, which I feel like we owe a lot of our contemporary. Well, we owe a lot of our contemporary tell, like we still talk about, like you and I talk about it, but talk about in writers' rooms, the kind of the grief relay that that show began with of like one crime permeating a town. Like that is a blueprint for a lot of TV that did make the list and a lot of TV that gets made all the time. Um, I mean, I put We Own the City on there, uh, because it gave us so many great podcasting moments, thanks to your Wayne Jenkins imitation. But again, it's another example of like, what is the bar for entry for one season wonders? Like Chernobyl and I May Destroy You made the list, but We Own the City didn't. Because I Gotta Be Me, I threw Terriers on there.

• 58:12Chris Ryan?

  You did.

• 58:13Andy Greenwald?

  Which is famously, infamously, one of my favorite one season wonders ever. It should have been more FX. It's now it's 15, 16 years old. Um, do you want me to burn my top 10? Have we, do we overlapped on a couple yet?

• 58:24Chris Ryan?

  No, I haven't, I haven't overlapped on any. I'll do a couple of mine until I get up until, uh, up until the upper reaches here.

• 58:31Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 58:32Chris Ryan?

  One is, I think I had a lot more on this list. It was mini series or limited series. I don't know why it jumped out at me about that, but I, of those included, uh, Park Chinwuk's adaptation of Little Drummer Girl that came out several years ago.

• 58:44Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, hell yeah.

• 58:45Chris Ryan?

  Alexander Skarsgård and Florence Pugh. I had, uh, The Northwater, Andrew Hayes, uh, brilliant, um, sea fearing, uh, mini series with Colin Farrell and Jack O'Connell that came out a couple of years ago. I also, I mentioned Howard's End earlier, that was on my list. And Barry Jenkins's Underground Railroad, which I think that, uh, is an incredibly difficult show to watch, but is an astonishing monument to, um, uh, that insurgency of directors into television and doing cinematic things with TV and was really like an incredible piece of work.

• 59:23Chris Ryan?

  And then as kind of more traditional, uh, entries, I have Damages, which I.

• 59:31Andy Greenwald?

  Good for you.

• 59:32Chris Ryan?

  So this is the Rose Byrne, Glenn Close legal thriller that was on FX in the 2000s. And I think if it came out today, would be one of the most talked about, watched.

• 59:45Chris Ryan?

  Like exciting shows because it was ahead of its time with like, we're gonna kill a major character in the second episode and we're gonna burn plot to the point where you, there doesn't seem to be any way to get out of this corner and then we do somehow. It's a real precursor to Ozark and shows like that. And I also have Narcos on my list, which is, I think, gonna be looked back on as a secretly essential Netflix show and a huge, huge uniter when it comes to different groups of people watching a kind of, a kind of TV and is a real groundbreaker when it comes to the Wikipedia true story brought to TV screen style of TV making.

• 1:00:31Andy Greenwald?

  Also, if, if we had been asked the question when we were covering Narcos when it was on, who is the most obvious superstardom breakout candidate here? We would have said Boyd Holbrook and instead Pedro Pascal and Ragnar Mora were both in the cast of that show.

• 1:00:47Chris Ryan?

  Pretty crazy.

• 1:00:50Andy Greenwald?

  So, great picks, especially like Little Drummer Girl and Northwater are exactly the kinds of things I was looking for when I spent the 10 minutes before recording wildly Googling Andy Greenwald top 10 list, please, because I have no memory of anything. But, okay, a couple of other shows that I felt like deserve recognition here and certainly are influential, our buddy Sam S. Mail show, Mr. Robot. I think Mr. Robot got dinged for the very stark, I'm not gonna say dip in quality, but season one is so exceptional and seasons two, three, four, five are fascinating and rewarding and have incredible moments in them, but they are a very, very different show as Sam took creative, full creative control. So I understand it. I don't think it's fair because again, you get into that,

• 1:01:35Andy Greenwald?

  like, what are you judging here? We have single season shows on there. So it's tough when you are, when you are downgrading candidates because of not sticking the landing. I put the OC on there. It's recency bias in the sense that my older daughter is watching it and so I'm watching it with her. And I will be clear that I have only watched with her the first season again. And I know that that's another show that had a dip and rebounded and, you know, but his first season, though, had 27 episodes in it.

• 1:01:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Andy Greenwald?

  Which is insane. It is more episodes in one season than I would say a good percentage of the shows that made the list. And it was so engaging and so fun and so influential for a whole host of shows that came after. The comedy series Detroiters didn't make the list.

• 1:02:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:19Andy Greenwald?

  Great Tim Robinson. I may destroy you, did make the list, but Detroiters is so, so funny and so reliable and worth streaming. Here's one I want to pause to hear your thoughts on, Dark.

• 1:02:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, one of the best first seasons of TV of the century, I think. And then, you know, you, you did need a physics degree to understand the third season, but still.

• 1:02:42Andy Greenwald?

  But it, but it was a perfectly folding puzzle cube. Like, it is the most German version of anything I've ever seen, that it is meticulously engineered, so deeply unsentimental. Because of that, maybe the most successful and also horrifying time travel show of all time, but still living on Netflix, still worth watching, absolute mind bender. Mindhunter, but you've spoken about it at length, incredible show, misunderstood, canceled too soon. Did you have on your initial list or on this exercise, did you put Industry down?

• 1:03:14Chris Ryan?

  I didn't. This is on, this is the number one draft pick of my, my shows that weren't on it. And it would, would have been like my 11th or 12th. I feel stupid not having done it and not having to put it on it because I think one of the problems with making a 10 best list of the century is that you wind up having to pay the bill that you wrote yourself on the podcast where I'm like, Industry is the show of the decade, but somehow it doesn't make this list. And it wasn't out of any, I honestly am such a huge believer in the later seasons of Industry and as it's evolved into what it's become, which is kind of like a global financial crime thriller. It's, it's still like my, my most anticipated show of next year is still Industry. I don't really know why it didn't make it onto this list.

• 1:03:59Andy Greenwald?

  I think it didn't make the list for two reasons. One, because it is absolutely a grower, not a shower, which is a plotline they would probably do in the upcoming final season of Industry.

• 1:04:07Chris Ryan?

  That was Eric's problem in the, in general, yeah.

• 1:04:10Andy Greenwald?

  The way that the show has grown in pop, in popularity and also in discourse, like exponentially season over season means that if they were doing this New York Times list next year, I think it probably would have cracked the, the bottom 10, 10th of it. But there's also the opposite of recency bias. Like, like Widows Bay hadn't hit yet when this, I think when we got the, the poll, which was earlier in the spring. But like, I also don't think Widows Bay would have made the list because people are like, well, let's wait and see. Let's not be rash about this. Let's let like history judge. But Industry certainly deserves a place in terms of consideration, but I do wonder if some of these people are just holding out for that final season. But speaking of the season thing, I wondered

• 1:04:53Andy Greenwald?

  what your thoughts were on Fargo, which was sort of a surprise omission from the list.

• 1:04:59Chris Ryan?

  Well, I think that this had a True Detective problem, which was,

• 1:05:02Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly.

• 1:05:03Chris Ryan?

  True Detective, season one makes the list. I don't, I did not know that that was eligible or that we could start to identify single seasons

• 1:05:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Chris Ryan?

  of anthology shows to celebrate. And if had, had I known, I think True Detective, season one would have been in, in my ballot. But Fargo, I was quite shocked because even if you want to look at it, the totality of Fargo's accomplishment, it's hard to say it's not one of the 100 best.

• 1:05:29Andy Greenwald?

  Beyond that, and influential and important, I'll just say it, like, I didn't really like seasons three, four, or five of, there have been five, right, of Fargo.

• 1:05:41Chris Ryan?

  I think that I liked five of them. I can't remember. I didn't love the, the Chris, there was a Chris Rock season, there's a Ewan McGregor season, and five is Jon Hamm.

• 1:05:51Andy Greenwald?

  The second season is a perfect season of television. And like, I, it almost doesn't matter what the rest were. And season one is amazing, too. Great Billy Bob Thornton performance, Martin Freeman, also the audacity of doing it and doing it well. Like, it, it seems challenging to me to make that case, if you're using that, if you're using any other, any kind of logic. Final three for me, the great Lost Sundance series Rectify, which was seen by almost no one, but the people who did see it changed them deeply. It is incredibly profound and moving and slow meditation on guilt and family and has incredible performances from Abigail Spencer and J. Smith Cameron from Succession. It's

• 1:06:36Andy Greenwald?

  a really, really moving show, but not one that, that many people encountered. You know, I'm always going to stand for Top of the Lake. This is the second Jane Campion reference on this pod, which is why we stay undefeated. Elizabeth Moss in one of her many great television performances, but one of my favorites, Top of the Lake, you know, it, there was, I was trying to like overmath it, which is why I ended up with kind of a chalky list. But I was like, there's, there's room for one autourish, one and done statement and it had to be Twin Peaks, The Return for me, but Top of the Lake was in contention. And then my final, number one, don't understand why it wasn't on the list because unless every single person was like me and forgot that it was, that it was eligible, it's fucking

• 1:07:19Andy Greenwald?

  Bluey, man. That, of everything here, of the 17 shows I just named for you, if I could have the ballot back, I would put Bluey on my list. And I'm not just saying it for the bit.

• 1:07:29Chris Ryan?

  No, I know. I mean, I saw a lot of chatter about like, why not, were justice for Bluey? The, of the ones that you didn't mention, you, you mentioned Industry, that would have been my first in. Ripley, Steve Zalian's Netflix series

• 1:07:43Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, hell yeah.

• 1:07:44Chris Ryan?

  from a couple of years ago, 000. That one goes out to Hitmaker, to Tim Simons, my brother in 000. Dude, how do we not get the Nick in here?

• 1:07:54Andy Greenwald?

  Great call. Great call. The Nick is another example of something that kind of like, was taken for granted during this weird glut of like, look at all the cool things that are happening on TV, but also maybe felt slightly unfinished, even though it

• 1:08:08Chris Ryan?

  It very much is finished. I think it's almost just like Steven Soderbergh's too good at interviews. So he was like, what if Barry Jenkins makes this in another year, but it's set in the 70s?

• 1:08:17Andy Greenwald?

  With Andre Holland.

• 1:08:19Chris Ryan?

  I'm like, fuck.

• 1:08:20Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe, maybe it's, maybe it's a victim of the fact that like, everybody, like, everybody carries some flame for it in their heart. Like, there's still more to say there. But like, we, we used to eat good in this country, man. Steven Soderbergh, single-handedly shooting and editing a absolutely batshit bravura examination of turn of the century medicine starring Clive Owen and Andre Holland. Like, elite, elite show.

• 1:08:47Chris Ryan?

  Speaking of eating good, Top Chef, consideration for you?

• 1:08:50Andy Greenwald?

  I make my own arbitrary rules and I decided that only fiction, but if I had done that route, I would have done what you did smartly and it made the list, which is put Bourdain. Like, Top Chef, certainly one of my favorite shows of the last 20 years, but I, I just, apples and oranges it when it comes to competition shows.

• 1:09:09Chris Ryan?

  And this may seem like a reach, but I just have to shout out these two comedies. Motherland, which is a Sharon Horgan show from a couple of years ago with Anna Maxwell Martin, which I thought was just like a wonderful sitcom about being a parent in London. And Southside, the cop comedy

• 1:09:28Andy Greenwald?

  Fucking Southside!

• 1:09:29Chris Ryan?

  on HBO, which you can still watch and I highly, highly recommend, but was among my favorite sitcoms of our time potting together. And thus concludes our time

• 1:09:38Andy Greenwald?

  There's so many good shows out there.

• 1:09:40Chris Ryan?

  I know. This, this job should be easy.

• 1:09:43Andy Greenwald?

  And yet.

• 1:09:45Chris Ryan?

  I'll be talking to you briefly on Monday to discuss Lanterns, the finale, which goes up Sunday night and probably has some guests coming up soon as well. But Greenwald, always great to see you. It's gonna be 100 degrees here in Los Angeles tomorrow on October 3rd. So you enjoy the crisp autumn air.

• 1:10:02Andy Greenwald?

  I, I don't know which I prefer.

• 1:10:04Chris Ryan?

  I'll tell you which one I prefer.

• 1:10:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think we know.

• 1:10:07Chris Ryan?

  See you later, brother.

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