BONUS | Ezra Frech Before Dancing with the Stars

You might be watching Ezra Frech on Dancing with the Stars right now, but there's a lot more to his story than what you see on TV. For today's bonus episode, we're bringing back Ryan's conversation with the Paralympic gold medalist, recorded before he joined the show. Thenew 10th Anniversary Edition of https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10The Daily Stoic https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10is out NOW! 👉 Grabhttps://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10your copy here: https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10 🎟️https://www.dailystoiclive.com/DAILY STOIC LIVE https://www.dailystoiclive.com/| Ryan Holiday is coming to a city near you https://www.dailystoiclive.com/! Grab tickets here https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ | https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ 🎙️AD-FREE https://dailystoic.supercast.com/| Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing toThe Daily Stoic Premium https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content:https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ ✉️ FREE STOIC WISDOM https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail | Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email athttps://dailystoic.com/dailyemail -- Stop online threats before they become real-world attacks. Visit ironwall.com/DAILYSTOIC and request a free Risk Assessment to see exactly how exposed your executives are. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Holiday?

  So I have a bunch of traveling I'm doing through the end of the year on Daily Stoic Live Tour. I just got back from San Diego. I like to stay in the places that I'm staying. I like to book places on Airbnb so I can be like a local. I not only do some of my best writing, but I learn about things that I wouldn't have known otherwise. When I was just in San Diego, I took a walk along the water. I bumped into someone who recognized me and they told me about their favorite local bookstore, which was like two blocks from where I was staying. And I never would have known about it if it wasn't for that encounter. It was cool to me to think that I have helped facilitate that experience for many, many people coming to Austin over the years. The first house that I bought in Austin, when my wife and I first moved here, we would list it on Airbnb and it helped me make the transition from my corporate life to being a full-time writer.

• 0:45Ryan Holiday?

  So if you're gonna be away, you should maybe think about listing your place on Airbnb. It can be a great way to earn extra cash while you travel, can offset the cost of your trip, or maybe even go towards whatever you're doing next. If you've got travel coming up, check out Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think and you can find out how much at Airbnb.com/host.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  They asked me, if you had the opportunity to go back and change your disability, would you do it?

• 1:11Ryan Holiday?

  Today's guest is actually a first. I think he's the youngest guest, but he's also the first Paralympian. As refract is an American track and field athlete and he won two gold medals at the 2024 Paralympics.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  The opportunity to represent something bigger than myself is one of the biggest points of pride.

• 1:30Ryan Holiday?

  Is it exhausting though, having to be a representative of something?

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Controlling your mind is the first step to being able to.

• 1:37Ryan Holiday?

  Stoicism is at its core, sort of a philosophy built around.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  I was devastated to lose on the world stage.

• 1:43Ryan Holiday?

  Do you think that's healthy?

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Everywhere I went in public as a young kid, everywhere you have people staring and pointing fingers.

• 1:49Ryan Holiday?

  You have this idea of what your kid is gonna be.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  And then it's not about the journey and it's not about the destination. It's about who you become in pursuit of the destination. When I'm on the podium with three gold medals in LA in 2028, we can look back on this and I can say.

• 2:10Ryan Holiday?

  I think you're the youngest person on this podcast, so congratulations.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:13Ryan Holiday?

  I think so.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  I appreciate that. That's sure, that's.

• 2:17Ryan Holiday?

  No, it's funny.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  That'll go on my resume.

• 2:19Ryan Holiday?

  I was for many years always the youngest person to do stuff. I remember I was in LA and I was working at this talent agency and I was working for this guy and he was like, he was a movie producer, but he was 26, which is like very young. And, but to me, he was like super old. I remember he said to me, he was like, it's all very exciting. You're young and then you're more successful than all your friends. And then he's like, starting at about 26, 27, they all start graduating from medical school and stuff. And he's like, and then it all evens out very quickly.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  That's so interesting.

• 2:52Ryan Holiday?

  Because like I dropped out of college, I was like in the mix very early in doing like exciting, interesting stuff.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Compared to your friends.

• 2:58Ryan Holiday?

  Compared to my friends who like, this is all around the financial crisis. So most of them like either didn't find what they wanted to do right away because there no one was hiring, or they went back to get to go to grad school or whatever. It all kind of evens out.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  It evens out because most students are in school for an extended period of time and then immediately enter the workforce.

• 3:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  No, I resonate with that. I totally resonate with that. It's also weird to be already in pursuit of your maybe career really early compared to your friends. Cause you don't have a lot of shared experiences. And I guess in my, in my.

• 3:32Ryan Holiday?

  Well, all your peers are older.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Right. And then you're my, I have friends from high school and friends in college that are my age, but we're just operating in totally different worlds sometimes, if that makes sense. They, you know, they're interested in going out and partying and hanging out and doing this thing and finding internships at companies that I have the opportunity to partner with, right? So it's just the totally weird, uh, almost dynamic of career power in a way. But, but at the same time, it's like, you're right that at a certain point it completely evens out. And then it's like the friends that have been studying for eight years are now just like, you know, some successful doctor.

• 4:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  And we're 27 and I mean, I'd like to think at 27, I'll be like this much further down my career, but.

• 4:16Ryan Holiday?

  Being an athlete must be weird too, because on the one hand, it's childlike. Like you're still playing a game, you're doing a thing that you did, right? And there's, it's like fun and interesting and exciting. It's not like the real world, like having to go to an office. And on the other hand, you have to be serious and professional in a way that your college friends don't. Like the college athlete is on campus as an athlete, like all the other students, but basically has a full-time unpaid job.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  For sure. And the difference is that what I feel like I'm trying to pursue, especially in the Paralympic space. I mean, I've grown up obsessed with this dream, obsessed with this goal. I grew up dying to live the life that I'm able to live right now. And so I have a lot of gratitude just in that sense. But the reality is, at least the way the Paralympics is right now, it's maybe the best comparison. The best comparison would be women's sports 20 years ago or 15 years ago, where you're not able to make a living just by being good at your sport. That's the reality.

• 5:15Ryan Holiday?

  The sports not paying you.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Just being good at your sport, you don't make any money. I know five-time Paralympic gold medalists dominating their sport for years who are living paycheck to paycheck. That's the reality. People always talk about how difficult it is to be an Olympic athlete. And it's really difficult. And then it's 10 times worse to be a Paralympic athlete.

• 5:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, of course, for many reasons.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  For many reasons. And so, uh, I'm sort of always in this uphill battle. So in the same way that I have to be hyper-focused on my career, because everything that I do on the track has to be number one important, because that sets up all these other opportunities. In that same way, I have to pursue things excluding the track, like the content creation, like the speaking, like the sponsor stuff, like whatever else we might be doing in order to actually in some ways fund that athletic career, which is, which is super interesting.

• 6:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you basically are a professional athlete and then your job is like content creator, influencer person. But instead of being like, I just put on these clothes, you have to run really fast.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so think, like to think about the type of commitment that goes into being the best, which is you have to be all in and I have to be all in on the track. I need to be putting my blood, sweat, tears into this. I need to sacrifice everything in my life, but then I also have to figure out ways to monetize.

• 6:31Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Cause the sport isn't paying me.

• 6:33Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  And then additionally hard to keep up with school. Like the reality is doing an essay late at night for a class that isn't that important to the general gist of my career is sometimes really hard to justify.

• 6:46Ryan Holiday?

  But the school gives you the chance to perform in front of large groups of people and be in the NCAA mix in a way that like being a, I don't know, an independent lacrosse player is not gonna give you, like that's where the fans are.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  I did, I did one year competing on the collegiate team and then I went pro this past summer.

• 7:06Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, so you can't.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  I'm not running on USC anymore.

• 7:10Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  And, and the way track and field works is that because there's no league.

• 7:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  You get what's called a professional contract. So professionalizing, going pro in track and field is signing to an apparel company, where now you get paid for performance bonuses. You get paid to win the world title, break the world record, win a national championship. That's our equivalent, running for an apparel company as getting drafted to the MLB or NHL or NBA.

• 7:37Ryan Holiday?

  But if you were Caitlin Clark, you could have an apparel deal, no? And still play.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. No, no, you can still, you can still on the NBA, NFL, you also get apparel deals on top of that.

• 7:46Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, I mean, I mean, like if you're Caitlin Clark and you're playing in college, she could have an apparel deal and not lose her.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  And I could too, and I could too.

• 7:53Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, got it.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  But the, the type of apparel deal is different. I won't get paid for performance.

• 7:58Ryan Holiday?

  Oh.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  It's a NIL deal where you basically, it's based on your name, image, likeness. You get a base amount of money.

• 8:06Ryan Holiday?

  Got it.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  If I win a world title or break the world record, that amount doesn't change.

• 8:10Ryan Holiday?

  The incentives are what make you a pro. So it used to be like money versus no money. And now it's what little memo they put on the chair.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  It's like, if you do well, if you perform well on the track, then you basically make more money, which is the closest equivalent to being an NBA player. And you do well and you get a bigger contract, right? That's the closest, closest equivalent. That's why in track it's called professionalizing, because there's real, really no league. I just go compete at international meets around Europe. I write, wear Team USA on the world stage and stuff like that. And then you have, based on your sponsors, bonuses, assuming you do well.

• 8:49Ryan Holiday?

  Did turning pro feel different? Like, like, did it change how you approach doing it or?

• 8:56Ryan Holiday?

  Is it just an accounting switch?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  It it changes a little bit. So the reality is I I had a pretty difficult first year, or I guess only year on the USC track team. I took a gap year when I graduated high school. I took the gap year to train entirely for the Paris Paralympic Games before I went to college. And what that allowed me to do is basically organize and optimize everything that I was doing in my day, designed to perform on the track. So 10 to 12 hours of sleep every night, five, six hours of recovery, sauna, red light, cryo, hyperbaric chamber, a few hours on the track. You know, my morning meditation, visuals, everything that I was doing was intended to get me closer to winning Paralympic gold.

• 9:38Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  And then I went to college.

• 9:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  After an amazing Paralympic Games, after all the success, I go to college. And now I'm dealing with teachers that don't care about anything else that I'm doing. I have homework assignments and 8 a.m. class. We're only allowed to be on the track from this time to this time. We weight lift from this time. But so it was, in a way, became really difficult for me to maintain that level of optimization that I had leading into Paris. And so because of that, I was just sort of struggling to find my way. Eventually, I got a little bit better at it. But in a way, going pro gives me the opportunity to get back to that place of full optimization.

• 10:12Ryan Holiday?

  My main thing.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  This is my main thing. I build my schedule around this. And then what happened was, you know, I just got back from a world championships in India. I landed literally in L.A. yesterday and then jumped on the flight two hours later to come here. And

• 10:26Ryan Holiday?

  Are you exhausted?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  I'm a little, I'm a little tired, but you know, good energy in the room sometimes brings about your own mental energy. So I'm all right. But the reality is I didn't do very well at this last world championships.

• 10:36Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Actually, the one I just got back from, really poor, really bad performance on my end. And the ramifications of a difficult year where I wasn't fully optimized. And so

• 10:47Ryan Holiday?

  It's a lagging indicator of

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:50Ryan Holiday?

  Some decision. What does performed badly mean to you?

• 10:53Speaker 01

  In Paris at the Paralympics, I won the high jump.

• 10:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  I'm the world record holder in the high jump. And I lost the world title. I got a silver in the high jump.

• 11:01Ryan Holiday?

  In India?

• 11:02Speaker 01

  In India. And then I

• 11:04Ryan Holiday?

  So bad for you as second place.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Bad, 100% as second place, especially in high jump. That's my main event. That's, that's my event. And then the 100 meter, which I won in Paris, I placed fifth in, which I, once again, I mean, it's been, it's been a difficult year, a really unorthodox year.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Ridiculed with injuries and things going on. We released a documentary, I had to do a whole press tour. And so things were really inconsistent, training wasn't really there. And then that's what happens when you go to world championships underprepared. Like, that's, that's the result. But I will say, you know, I, I look back on this world championships quite fondly. I'm sort of excited about all learnings and what will come. But I, I totally lost. And it was really, you know, lots of tears the last couple of weeks.

• 11:45Ryan Holiday?

  It's funny you say that. Do you know that there's sort of silver medal paradox? Have you heard this thing?

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Is it that getting silver is worse than getting bronze? Because when you're bronze, you're happy to be on the podium.

• 11:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  But when you get silver, you're so close to gold, you feel like you were cheated or so bummed in a way.

• 12:01Ryan Holiday?

  You, you actually feel that? That checks out for you?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  1,000, I mean, 1,000%, that's real in a way. Because, you know, there's been times where, you know, I've gotten a bronze medal at some international competition. And I'm so hyped that I got this bronze medal, right? But then you get a silver and you think, oh, man, I was really close to gold. I think circumstance is really important, though.

• 12:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  And so I am the world record holder in the high jump. I should not lose that event. If I lose the high jump, it is me beating myself. It is not my opponent beating me, if that makes any sense. So the fact that I lost that and got a silver, and that's

• 12:35Ryan Holiday?

  But couldn't it just as easily be the conditions or that the other person outperform, like what?

• 12:41Speaker 01

  So the other person performed really well. But he had the best day of his life and I had to have a really bad day. And there's so many, you're right, there's so many variables involved, conditions, injuries, like a few weeks before the competition, I could barely walk. I hurt my back real bad.

• 12:54Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  But at the end of the day, there's no excuses. Like, I showed up next to this dude and he beat me. He's the world champion and that eats me alive.

• 13:01Ryan Holiday?

  We were looking to spruce up our, our front porch. The weather's finally getting better. And we wanted to spend some time hanging out outside with the kids. So we got these awesome hammocks and we actually got them from today's sponsor, Wayfair. If you drove by our, our house, you'd see us out there with our kids reading. We've got this new kitten all hanging out in the hammocks. It's been awesome. And that's because on Wayfair, you'll find quality materials that stand up to real life. They sell furniture and decor that's built to last. And when you shop with Wayfair Verified, it's your shortcut to durable pieces that are hand vetted by product specialists using their 10-point quality inspection. They've got thousands of products at every style and budget, whether you're simply replacing an appliance or transforming your home from top to bottom this holiday season.

• 13:44Ryan Holiday?

  Wayfair's got great reviews as well, so you can find more than 20 million verified five-star reviews from real shoppers. Find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today and get 5% back on every purchase. Head over to wayfair.com to shop all things home, W A Y F A I R dot com.

• 14:08Ryan Holiday?

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• 14:53Ryan Holiday?

  So join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help your job get the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support the show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. If you're hiring now, then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Really, it eats you alive.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Eats me alive. I mean, for context, just, just so you understand how I operate. I was 16 years old at the Tokyo 2020 Paralympic Games.

• 15:34Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  I should have been on the podium. I was capable of it, but I was really young. As my first games and I placed fifth.

• 15:41Ryan Holiday?

  And are there age groups in the Paralympics?

• 15:42Speaker 01

  No, no age groups. So, I mean, it's probably important to establish just some like general understanding for the viewers as well, which, and the listeners, which is the Paralympics happens two weeks after the Olympics.

• 15:53Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  And it is for people with physical disabilities. 15% of the world population, a billion people globally, 50 million in the U.S. that live with a physical disability.

• 16:03Ryan Holiday?

  Wow.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Which is staggering numbers. And in contrast, people with cognitive disabilities, that's 2% to 3% of the U.S. population. So this is a massive, massive number. And what people get confused on is they either think it's the same thing as the Olympics. They think I'm, I'm an Olympian, which they're related, but they are different, different committees and different organizing committees and different games. Or they think I'm a Special Olympian, which, which is, Special Olympics is great, an amazing organization. And they do programming for people with cognitive impairments, but it's inclusive, it's programming.

• 16:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Paralympics is the highest level sport and competition on the planet.

• 16:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  People just happen to have a physical disability.

• 16:41Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  And there's classifications, so I only compete against people with the same or similar disability.

• 16:47Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  I'm not going to run against a blind dude.

• 16:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Guy missing just his hand, he would beat me and what, they're more capable. And so in the Paralympics, my classification in the high jump, when I was 16 years old in Tokyo, I got fifth.

• 17:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  And I was, the, the final chance for me to get the bronze medal. I take this high jump at a height that was basically my personal best. And I have the best jump in my life. I soar over the bar, I land on the mat, I don't even touch it. I don't feel myself touch it and I jump up to go celebrate. And I, I see the red flag and the bar's down. And I, I thought I just didn't touch this bar at all. And my prosthetic leg skimmed the top of the bar and it fell.

• 17:30Ryan Holiday?

  You wouldn't have felt it.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  And I didn't feel it.

• 17:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  And so I was this, I was devastated to lose on this, on the world stage. I felt like I let the, my family down, my friends, everyone. And so that night, I, I set the lock screen on my phone as a photo of the medalists.

• 17:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  When they took, they take that photo with the flags and I watched unfold. That I'm not in, with the words, never again. So that every time I would open up my phone for those years in between Tokyo and the next games, which was obviously Paris, I would see a photo of the dudes that beat me and it would just always reinvigorate me. I gotta go get this one back. But that's how I am, you know, that's, I am deeply motivated by my losses and failures and how I can learn from them.

• 18:11Ryan Holiday?

  Do you think that's healthy?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  I don't know if that's healthy. I think that This is a question that my family poses to me a lot.

• 18:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  And my parents' job in a way has become to right reel me back in when they see me getting to a point because I'm an obsessive at heart.

• 18:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  And I think about this all day, 24/7. It's all that goes through my head. I think that's almost a slight qualification to be successful at anything is you have to be all in.

• 18:37Ryan Holiday?

  Really committed. Sure.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  But I don't know if it's healthy. I do a lot of things to make sure I'm mentally in a good place. I meditate daily. I do quite a bit of journaling. I, uh, my mom has basically been my mental coach for very many years. And so they're constantly aware of that. And am I going too far and how to reel me back in? But it's always sort of, that's kind of my personality, you know, I don't.

• 18:59Ryan Holiday?

  Do you think there's another form of motivation or that's the only thing that could propel you?

• 19:03Speaker 01

  It's not the only thing that propels me. It's actually not even close to the only thing. It's actually probably not even the biggest motivator. The biggest motivator for me is, is purpose. I genuinely feel in my heart of hearts, I was put on this earth to normalize disability.

• 19:20Ryan Holiday?

  Huh.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  To be an example of what is possible as an amputee, because the reality is you live with the physical disability, life is worse. People with physical disabilities are bullied in higher rates, have less job opportunities, the depression rate is higher, less physically active. I talk to kids with disabilities all the time. They're bullied in school 24/7.

• 19:38Ryan Holiday?

  And in my. They just have the thing to deal with, whatever it is.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Right, right. But even excluding that, which for a lot of people is just normal to them.

• 19:46Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Their quality of life is substantially worse. And in my opinion, it's because I don't think that disability is properly included in society in a weird way. Like there's this stigma. People don't know what to say. They don't want to say the wrong thing. They don't want to offend anyone. They don't understand.

• 20:00Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  And so I think that my purpose in life is to normalize disability. And the way I believe I do that is through becoming the greatest Paralympian of all time, through putting myself out there and the media, building a big enough brand to be the spokesperson for this contingent of the population.

• 20:18Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  And so that's the biggest driver for me, which is I think of, you know, there's, there's kids in parts of Africa, places in the Middle East, people with disabilities are considered cursed.

• 20:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  There was a story that my mom read about a Chinese trash scavenger that adopted 40 something children because they were born missing fingers and limbs and were thrown in the trash. And he found them there and adopted them. Kids with disabilities around the world. We have soldiers who came back from the Middle East and said that they found kids with disabilities shot and killed in the forest just because they were born different. And so if I think about the grand scheme of things, my purpose in life,

• 20:57Speaker 01

  this might not be the healthiest way to think about it, but if I don't accomplish my goals, if I don't rewire the way the world sees disability, more of these children suffer and more people with disabilities suffer.

• 21:09Ryan Holiday?

  So where does getting second place next to another Paralympian?

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:13Ryan Holiday?

  What is, why do you have to feel shitty about that?

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Because, because, because winning, winning and going down as the greatest Paralympian of all time, track is just one of the first steps to accomplishing that larger vision and elevating the profile of the Paralympics and broadening the brand and the opportunities that come from that. And so in my head, you know, I need to go down as the greatest Paralympian of all time, um, in order to then be at a place to create this sort of broader change.

• 21:44Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting. I relate to it. It's, it's a tension, right? Because like, did you feel like there was something that you could have done that you didn't do? And that's what you're kicking yourself about? Or are you mostly just mad about the result?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  So losing in general sucks. That's.

• 21:58Ryan Holiday?

  Of course, nobody likes to lose.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Nobody likes to lose. And I'm ultra.

• 22:00Ryan Holiday?

  Losers do. Have you ever heard that joke?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  No, what is that?

• 22:03Ryan Holiday?

  Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Oh, right. Because if they're okay with losing, then they're a loser.

• 22:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny.

• 22:09Ryan Holiday?

  Well, no, if you're good with losing, you'll lose a lot.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  You'll lose a lot. Yeah, that's funny. Um, I mean, so yeah, in general, losing sucks, but that's not sort of, I accept that. I know that in a sport.

• 22:20Ryan Holiday?

  Not gonna win all the time.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  You're not gonna win all the time. That's the way it goes.

• 22:22Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  And for me, it's more so what I do in the preparation. If I do everything in my power possible, if I leave no stone unturned, I can walk away from the track after the competition.

• 22:31Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Whether I'm pissed about losing, that's fine, but I did everything I could. There was no stone left unturned. And I do feel similarly about this last competition. The only thing is we just took a lot of risks throughout the year. I was the first above the any amputee to ever compete on a D1 track team. We didn't know what that was going to look like. We made a lot of changes prosthetic wise. There was, I've sort of battling a ton of adversity, a few injuries. And then we released this documentary on Peacock. It's called Adaptive. And I basically put my heart and soul into making this project. And so I had to do everything in my power to make sure that it's successful and people watch it. And we did a whole media tour, which I don't regret because we, I needed to do that for the bigger purpose.

• 23:13Ryan Holiday?

  But it might've cost you something.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  But it cost me. It did. And so I had inconsistent training and, you know, within the circumstances, I did the best I could.

• 23:21Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  But this learning from the losses at this world championships is moving forward, the main thing needs to be the main thing. And this was the first year I've really struggled to juggle everything because after Paris, everything sort of elevated and we had opportunities come in beforehand, but not at the same level and not in the same way. And so now I have to figure out how to balance everything. And this year was just the learning. So.

• 23:46Ryan Holiday?

  When the hard part is you do these other things because like, like for me, like you can't just be an author for the most part these days, like just the economics of the business and, and also the things that ultimately make people read the books you gotta do over here. Like this podcast is a good example, but the problem is all those other things as well as they can pay and as interesting they can be, they all have a cost, but you know, the cost is there, but you think you're getting away with it.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:11Ryan Holiday?

  And you don't pay the bill until some unexpected later moment. And it's often higher than you wanted it to be.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  That's exactly how I feel. That you couldn't have articulated that any more perfectly. Cause as you're juggling these things, of course you think you're doing it right.

• 24:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And then you're putting it on a credit card.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  And you never anticipate what it's actually going to build up to, what you're going to have to pay at the end of it.

• 24:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And then as you're putting on the credit card, you're putting on the credit card, and then you're paying the minimums on the credit card. And then at one point, you know, because nobody looks at their mail. One day you do open it and you're like, oh shit. And it's second place or it's not even qualifying or it's, yeah, your, your, your immune system is bad because you were at a party the night before the thing because you agree, yeah. And, and you just, um, or your spouse walks out on you. There, there's all these things that you don't know where the cost is being incurred, but just because you're not quantifying it, doesn't mean it's not accumulating.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think as disappointed as we can be in those moments, I was actually overcome with quite a bit of gratitude there, just in the fact that I'm able to have this learning opportunity come to me at such an early stage in my career, learn how to adjust, navigate, and make sure that those mistakes don't happen again when the games come to my hometown in LA in three years.

• 25:41Ryan Holiday?

  Better to learn it in India than Los Angeles.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 25:44Ryan Holiday?

  Do you think you'll actually learn it?

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 25:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  I would say, uh.

• 25:50Ryan Holiday?

  Cause that's the problem. Life sort of gives us these reminders. It happens and then, and then tomorrow you got a, you know, a bunch of requests and you're like, I think I can do it.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Right. And, and, and also I think, I don't remember, I think it's Chris Williamson who said this. He was like, it's better to be sometimes in a way worse position because you have more activation energy to get out of that than if something slightly goes wrong.

• 26:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Because if something's slightly going wrong, maybe you're in a little bit of an uncomfortable position. There's not enough activation energy for people to really pull themselves out of it.

• 26:18Ryan Holiday?

  You can lie to yourself about it more easily.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  In this case though, I feel like I'm on, this is, this is one of the more difficult few weeks of my entire life, uh, competing at this world championships, you know, knowing all that I put in and not feeling like I was prepared. Um, and so I would like to think I'll learn from this, but time will tell. If I'm on the podium, excuse me, when I'm on the podium with three gold medals in LA in 2028, we can look back on this and I can say, you know what? I did learn from it, but we'll see. Time will tell.

• 26:48Ryan Holiday?

  But it is interesting, right? Like we have our sort of larger purpose, which is meaningful and over a long time span. And then we end up defaulting though, to the much more easily measurable metrics. If I told you, you could radically change people's, uh, idea of disabilities and whatever, but you were gonna never stand on the podium again.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  I would accept that like this in a heartbeat.

• 27:18Ryan Holiday?

  Right. But day to day, you're evaluating your progress on your race times and whether you're on the podium or not, right? Like people do this with money, right? They go like, you picked, you picked this thing that is of all the things, not the most lucrative. Like you could have gotten into cryptocurrency or hedge funds or what? There's so many, if all you cared about was optimizing for money, there's many things you could choose. And so people don't choose that. They choose social work or, you know, this or that. And then though, once they're in there, they're like measuring themselves against other people by what kind of car they drive or how nice their house is. It's like, you already said money was not the most important thing to you, but because the other thing isn't as quantifiable, you're

• 28:03Ryan Holiday?

  kind of whipping yourself day to day, or you're making individual decisions based on money, even though you've already made, you've already asserted your larger purpose as not that. Like I remember, I think I talked about this in one of my books, but, so I told you, I worked at American Apparel and the founder is this kind of weird Elon Musk-esque character. And I remember someone, their big thing was they manufactured all their clothes in the US. And someone was saying like, hey, I don't know, like obviously you know this, but I'm just reiterating it to you that you should, if you move the factory to Mexico, you'd make a lot more money. And he was like, if all I cared about was making money is what the owner said. He's like, I would have just become a drug dealer. And I think about that all

• 28:44Ryan Holiday?

  the time. It's like, oh yeah, he, he chose this thing because he loves this thing, not because it's the way to maximize profits. Why would he make individual decisions that are designed to maximize profits? Right? And so that's kind of the paradox is like, we, we had this larger purpose and that's how we'll evaluate our life as a whole. But then day to day, we're like, does this get me more money? Does this get me more fame? Does this get me more this?

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:08Ryan Holiday?

  And then we wonder why we don't end up doing the bigger, larger goal.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Right. Which, which is an interesting dichotomy. That's an interesting balance between you have, the reality is you can have sort of long-term goals, but you have to have things in the short term to sort of keep yourself accountable as you get towards them. And it's making sure that those things are actually still in line.

• 29:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  And that's why, yes, I know that.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Getting a silver medal at this world championships, I'm not actually getting further away from maybe my larger purpose or the goals I want to accomplish. But part of that purpose, in my opinion, is the opportunity to elevate Paralympic sport because of what the Paralympics can do to change perceptions about people with disabilities. And the reality is, in the Paralympics, or let's just say in any other sport movement, you have a person that is able to transcend the movement and bring it into the mainstream. Swimming wasn't on national TV the same way until Michael Phelps came along. Women's basketball, you can make an argument, recently hasn't reached new heights until Katelyn Clark comes along. UFC was popular, but Conor McGregor took it to a whole nother level.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  I think that there's the opportunity for someone to do that for the Paralympics. And I feel like it's my duty to be that person. And so that's why the not winning has an added layer of frustration because I feel like I have the opportunity to elevate the movement and I have to win in order to do that, if that makes sense.

• 30:36Ryan Holiday?

  No, it totally makes sense. It sounds like your parents did a really good job when you were young of like building you up, like of making you feel like you could be the person that could do that.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely. My parents are the reason I am confident, secure. I mean, living with a disability, not fucking easy. Everywhere I went in public as a young kid, everywhere, you had people sharing and pointing fingers and whispering. I felt like a zoo animal for so many years of my life. I felt ostracized from society in a way. And the values and lessons that my parents instilled in me as a young kid completely helped shape the confidence that I believe I exhibit today. For example, I would be really insecure as a young kid and my mom would always tell me, she said, my whole upbringing, you walk into every room with your chin up, your chest out, and you walk in like you own the place. You don't retreat to that insecurity about your disability.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  And so, growing up, every room I walked into, I had my chin up, my chest held high. My parents never treated me any different. I participated in sports my whole childhood. They, you know, encouraged me to go after my dreams. And so then, over time, I became this kid who was hyper-confident in what he believed he was able to do regardless of disability or not. And that just came from the, the words that my parents constantly reiterated to me throughout my childhood.

• 32:03Ryan Holiday?

  Where do you think they learned how to do that? Like, did they have experience?

• 32:05Speaker 01

  No, I was the first kid. Imagine your first child is born with a disability. And my parents were real environmental advocates up until that point. And then they sort of realized that, you know, the environment has plenty of people advocating for it, but that people with disabilities really don't. And so they sort of made it our family mission to be disability advocates. We have a nonprofit in LA that my, my dad ran and still runs called Angel City Sports, where we provide sports opportunities for people with physical disabilities. And so the whole family just shifted towards disability, but they haven't had any prior experience in raising a kid, had all these values. They just, I don't know, intuitively understood how to fill me up with confidence and make me secure in myself. And I think they should write a parenting book.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 32:51Ryan Holiday?

  Well, reading about it, it must've been scary and hard for them in the sense that it was a process, like in the sense that you were, you were born a certain way, but then there were a bunch of different surgeries and probably insanely difficult decisions that they had to make that affect you, but you can't like, you can't, 20-year-old, you can't go back and be like, hey, I'm gonna feel great about this. They, they're worried like, you're gonna hate them forever.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  They amputated a leg. They amputated a leg. So I had a left leg that was curved up towards my waist and it wouldn't have been functional as I work and to continue to grow. And then I had one finger on my left hand. And so they traveled the world trying to find doctors that would basically propose a solution to make my life the most functional moving forward. Amputation, some doctor says this thing, some, and so they had to basically make a decision that was gonna permanently affect their child's life. Without, you're right, his consent or understanding or any of that. And so they made the decision to amputate my left leg right at the knee and then do a toe-to-hand transplant from the left foot on my left hand so that I could pick up and hold things. And, I mean, they have a lot of stories about, they canceled a surgery actually in the 11th

• 34:00Speaker 01

  hour, like right before, because they had a gut feeling that it was wrong. Just so much went on, but it's crazy to think about. I, I sometimes forget, and now that you're mentioning it, it's making me really think about it again, but it's insane to have to make decisions like that for your child.

• 34:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, there's a, there's this guy named Chesty Puller, who was one of the most decorated Marines in American history. Went through some of the worst battles of the Second World War. There's this story, you know, so you think he's like the hardest guy in the world. And there's this story about having to like, take his daughter and, and you all experiences at some point, but like, the hardest part as a parent, if you've ever had a kid do any kind of serious medical procedure, is the like, when you give your kid to this person and then that walk down the hallway where they're being like wheeled away from, it's just like the heartbreaking, worst, most vulnerable moment you'll ever, you'll ever go through. She's getting her tonsils out, like something minor, but he's like, he's giving it to the doctor and he comes back to his wife and he's just weeping and he says, you know,

• 34:59Ryan Holiday?

  that, that was worse than Peleliu, I think. That was worse than like, one of the worst invasions of World War II. And you go, yeah, because in this moment, the thing, basically they say like, having a kid is like having your heart outside your body. And, and you're like having to give that thing to someone else that you've met once to like cut them open or do this terrible thing to them. And I can only imagine that, like, they, obviously you do all the research, you think, and then you're like, hope we're fucking making the right decision.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's crazy.

• 35:32Ryan Holiday?

  Crazy.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  That's so crazy. And it makes sense. And, you know, my mom always told me growing up, she's like, you will never understand how much I love you until you have a kid of your own. You know, my family, my parents, they're, those are the people I do it for. That's my village. Those are my biggest supporters in the world, but I can't even imagine what it must've been like to have to, you know, because this is 15 hours, 15 hours. Once again, amputating and cutting me open, like.

• 35:56Ryan Holiday?

  And then all the recovery.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  And then all the recovery afterwards, you know, we didn't even know if the surgery was gonna be successful. My, my body might not have taken on the new finger. They were connecting nerves and tendons and arteries. There was a memory I have actually when I was, I don't even know how long post-surgery, but I was in the bathtub and I was in the bath for an extended period of time. And my new thumb, my new finger, which was the toe, wrinkled in the bath for the first time, which is the sign that the body has accepted it. And my parents freaked out and were celebrating and crying and, you know, as a young kid, I maybe didn't fully process it, but I just got chills retelling this story that that was the first sign that my body had accepted it, the surgery had been fully successful, which is crazy.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Imagine it wasn't successful, you do all that and it still doesn't work. That was the risk they were taking.

• 36:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Well, and there's also this struggle as a parent, because it's like you, you have this idea of what your kid is gonna be. And then everyone gets not that or not the average, you get your kid. And every kid is different and every kid is not what you expect. And then there's this process of having to go, oh, this is, like, this is the assignment that we got. And it's not maybe the assignment that we expected. It's certainly not the easiest assignment and it's not what our neighbor's assignment is or what all the other parent, and then you go, oh, I gotta figure out what's being asked of me here and what the job is here and what success is here. And like, you're the, you're their first kid. And so like, first off, they just have no experience and they definitely have no experience

• 37:31Ryan Holiday?

  in that specific thing. It must've been incredible.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great way to put it. I love that assignment analogy. It's like, yeah, you don't know what homework assignment you're about to get in some way.

• 37:41Ryan Holiday?

  But that's life. And I think what Stoic philosophy is also saying is like, everyone gets a fucking assignment and sometimes it's a very privileged assignment and sometimes it's a very powerless assignment, but like, your job is to play that hand well.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And, you know, controlling your mind is the first step to being able to manage those external circumstances. Funny enough, my dad actually. For, you know, all of my sort of elementary into middle school and even sometimes in high school years, he would just write, send me motivational quotes or things like that. And around my track competitions would actually, he was subscribed to your newsletter.

• 38:16Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, really?

• 38:17Speaker 01

  And he would be, he would always send me, uh, you know, whatever the write up of the day was. And so I went back and I looked at a couple of them today and I was just like back in my email. I just scrolled down and I was like, wow, that's really cool to see.

• 38:28Ryan Holiday?

  Well, to go to the point about like someday, all your friends also grow up. That's the other thing is you do a thing long enough and then people are like, oh yeah, I've been reading your stuff since I was 12.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:38Ryan Holiday?

  And you're like, you don't feel like,

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:40Ryan Holiday?

  like, like you could be old, like I just did, The Obstacle is the Way just had its 10th anniversary. And it's like, I don't feel like a person who could have a 10 year old book. That just, that's not how it feels to me. But then time is just always sort of working on you.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:56Ryan Holiday?

  And you, you go from like the young to the not young. And then one day you wake up and you have gray hair and stuff. It's a, it's a weird process.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. No, it's, it's, it's totally surreal. I think that's sort of the beauty of it all, which is like, as you're going through something, sometimes you don't maybe appreciate it as much as possible.

• 39:15Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  And that's something that I've tried to really think about, which is, I love the quote one. I don't remember where I got it from. It was like, it's hard to stop and smell the roses when you're riding on a horseback.

• 39:26Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And it's hard, I can imagine, as you're constantly in pursuit and a million things are happening and you're going after these goals that you set for yourself to then really appreciate the moment. But then when you look back 10 years later, you go, oh my gosh, I've been, you know what I mean? I have so much appreciation for those early moments or this or that.

• 39:44Ryan Holiday?

  Well, every athlete I've ever talked to has, that's retired, they always say they wish they'd enjoyed playing more. Because it's the exact tension you're talking about, which is you're so driven and you're so, you've so locked into, you know, like, winning is good and losing is bad, that you're missing, like, like Bruce Springsteen says, like, they call it playing for a reason. Like that it's a get, like, you get to do a fun thing professionally, but, but you can suck the fun out of it by going like, losing is bad and it sucks to have to lose. Cause what you're missing is that, like, you're missing all the people that wanted even a chance to compete, that didn't make it. And then

• 40:27Ryan Holiday?

  all the people whose dream it was to, to, to play that sport or music or whatever that, that dropped it along the way. So, so you're, you're only comparing yourself against the two people in front of you or the one person in front of you or against the 10 other competitors in the heat that you're in. And you're not going, hey, actually, if I zoom out, you know, compared to all the other people that have ever done this sport or want to do this sport, I'm on the podium. And then I think in your case to be like, what's the average life quality of the person born the way that you were born? And then go, oh shit, it's all fucking gravy from here.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  That's a great point. And it's something that I am continuing to grapple with, which is, I love what I do.

• 41:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  I'm so blessed. I get to travel around the world, go to cool places, compete in a sport that I love. I, I'm so grateful. I wake up every day and go to the track and love this. I love the recovery. I love getting great sleep. Like this is my life and I'm, I enjoy it so intentionally. And in that same vein though,

• 41:32Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  I also hold myself to a ridiculously high standard.

• 41:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  And believe that I'm capable of becoming the greatest Paralympian of all time. And then if I'm capable of it, to not accomplish it would be an insult to all of the people that believe in me or is behind me and even myself.

• 41:49Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  And I remember, so one of the, one of the newsletters that my dad sent me that I reread today was about manifestation and about how the Stoics didn't really believe in manifestation. They believed in action and that action is sort of the one thing you need to add to manifestation.

• 42:05Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  To make it happen. And I am,

• 42:08Ryan Holiday?

  Thinking about it is,

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Thinking about it is nothing unless you do,

• 42:11Ryan Holiday?

  Basically worthless.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Right. Thinking about it is worthless if you're not actually,

• 42:14Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  intentionally trying to pursue that thing. I do wholeheartedly believe that if you are thinking about something and then also in pursuit of that thing,

• 42:24Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  aggressively, I think you have a higher likelihood of accomplishing it than if you have no emotional attachment, don't care at all.

• 42:31Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  But I read that this morning and it reminded me of just sort of this whole process of like, action is everything here. And it's the person who takes action, who takes more action, that will be more successful. Oftentimes just thinking about it means you're going to take more action a little bit.

• 42:49Ryan Holiday?

  Was your dad really into sports? Or was it a surprise for them that you went this direction?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  My dad was into sports in a way. He almost went pro in skateboarding. He could have done well in soccer. He was a great athlete, but never, no one in my fam, no one in my family has pursued anything athletically. I'm from a Persian family that, you know, on paper doesn't have the greatest athletic genes. Uh, one time there was, we were actually at a, at a family party and there was, someone had to climb through a window to unlock a door. It got jammed or whatever. And they were about to send me and then all my, you know, family, they were like, no, we can't send the only child that has any athletic potential into this.

• 43:27Ryan Holiday?

  What does it say about him?

• 43:27Speaker 01

  We have to keep him healthy. But so yeah, no real athletic genes in the family.

• 43:31Ryan Holiday?

  I was at someone's home gym the other day and they had a tonal. And I was like, man, that thing is nice. I gotta get me one of those. It's hard to go to the gym. It's discouraging. Even if you get yourself there, the results can be discouraging. But with tonal, you can actually see your progress with every workout and you can do it without leaving your house. Tonal is the ultimate strength training system for a reason. Tonal provides the convenience of a full gym and the guidance of a personal trainer at home in one sleek system. And you don't have to second guess your form. Are you doing it right? Or you've accidentally taken shortcuts? Tonal gives you real time coaching cues to dial in your form and help you lift safely and effectively. After a quick assessment,

• 44:13Ryan Holiday?

  Tonal sets the optimal weight for every move and increases it in one pound increments to get you stronger. As I said, it's ratcheting up the physical load, but reducing the mental load. You can choose from expert led workouts in strength training or high intensity interval training or yoga or mobility. You'll love it. Right now, Tonal is offering our listeners 200 bucks off your Tonal purchase with promo code TDS. That's tonal.com and use promo code TDS for $200 off your purchase. Tonal.com TDS, 200 bucks off. So I have a bunch of traveling I'm doing through the end of the year on Daily Stoic Live Tour. I just got back from San Diego. I like to stay in the places that I'm staying. I like to book places on Airbnb so I can be like a local. I not only do some of my

• 44:58Ryan Holiday?

  best writing, but I learn about things that I wouldn't have known otherwise. When I was just in San Diego, took a walk along the water. I bumped into someone who recognized me and they told me about their favorite local bookstore, which was like two blocks from where I was staying. And I never would have known about it if it wasn't for that encounter. It was cool to me to think that I have helped facilitate that experience for many, many people coming to Austin over the years. The first house that I bought in Austin, when my wife and I first moved here, we would list it on Airbnb and it helped me make the transition from my corporate life to being a full-time writer. So if you're gonna be away, you should maybe think about listing your place on Airbnb. It can be a great way to earn extra cash while you travel, can offset the cost of your trip, or maybe

• 45:39Ryan Holiday?

  even go towards whatever you're doing next. If you've got travel coming up, check out Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think and you can find out how much at Airbnb.com/host. Really? It seems like they had the drive to be elite at things. There's, which is, I think sometimes people think that like, oh, they're into sports, but actually you find like sports, acting, uh, entrepreneurship. It's all the same kind of drive to perfect and perform and be really good at something.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. Absolutely. That makes sense. And they did have that.

• 46:16Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  And have had that.

• 46:17Ryan Holiday?

  So, so I imagine they probably understood that given some of the struggles you were gonna go through and some of the maybe confidence issues, that having a thing that you could control and throw yourself into would be really good for you.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And the reality is, sports is really powerful for that.

• 46:38Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  It's one of the many, maybe universal connectors in a way, where you can bring people together from totally different backgrounds, totally different experiences and they're playing a sport together. There's a level of connection. And so for me, that was my way in to finding friends, finding myself, building confidence. The nature of my disability, I was able to just keep up with my friends, play sports. All throughout elementary school, most people with disabilities can't do that.

• 47:05Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Their disabilities might be more severe, even the ones that do integrate face massive discrimination.

• 47:10Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  That's why we have the nonprofit for people who aren't able to fully integrate in a way.

• 47:14Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  But that's why I gravitated towards sports because I felt like I belonged.

• 47:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Everywhere I would go throughout the day, I didn't feel like I belonged, but then when I stepped on the court, when I stepped on the track, I felt like one of the guys and that was powerful.

• 47:28Ryan Holiday?

  And to have something that you're excellent at or that you're dominating at, that's it's like I am enough. But that can be the tricky part is that you pick up early on that I'm only good when I achieve or I accomplish.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Right. Which is why the foundation of I am enough who I am.

• 47:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  And I love this quote that I heard one time where it was like, it's not about the journey and it's not about the destination. It's about who you become in pursuit.

• 47:57Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  Of the destination, like in pursuit of your goals, the person you become is more powerful than the destination or the journey itself. And for me, you know, my parents made sure that I was confident in who I was and sports was a part of that. My family was a part of that. My work ethic was a part of that. My dreams, right? Every variable that impacted my life, of course, is going to play a role in my confidence, but that foundation was strong thanks to them.

• 48:21Ryan Holiday?

  Is it exhausting though, having to be a representative of something? Like I read this thing from John Thompson once, who's one of the first black coaches in college basketball. And he was saying like, the one thing about my career is I never just got to be a basketball coach. He's always a black basketball coach or he's always the first of this, or he's, he, he has to represent a community in a way that insert random other coach, athlete, whatever, doesn't have to be.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  I can understand what he's saying. And if you don't intentionally sign up for that, I can see how one might be annoyed by that over an extended period of time.

• 48:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  I'm grateful for it. I love it. The opportunity to represent something bigger than myself is one of the biggest points of pride. I am so grateful to have that opportunity to represent this community, whether it be representing Team USA, whether you're representing my family lineage, whether it be representing all one billion people with the physical disability. I have so much gratitude that that's even the opportunity that I have that, um, and it can be difficult in the sense that a lot of people come up and they go, well, that's so much pressure you're putting so much pressure on yourself. And, you know, I don't feel the pressure. I, I wouldn't say that I, I almost feel like we oftentimes convince ourselves of things a little bit too much and then they become our reality.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  You know, my mom, growing up, every time I was nervous or worried about something, she'd always be like, you're not nervous. You're excited and the body is the same thing, like convince yourself you're excited about these things. And so I, you know, and I'm not even just like saying this to convince myself of it. It's become my reality, which is I love this opportunity. I see it as an opportunity. I don't see it as anything negative.

• 50:04Ryan Holiday?

  There must be moments where it would be nice to just not have to carry that around, like in the sense of like, like, I don't know, like, uh, you, you think about what other people can get away with, right? That don't see themselves as a representative. So they can be like, like, uh, one athlete can throw a temper tantrum and be an asshole in the way that perhaps Caitlin Clark cannot, right? Or LeBron James as a high schooler to pro, there's a different set of expectations and he's having to prove a thing that again, insert regular player does not have to think about. Do you ever feel like you're carrying a weight that's not yours that, and you get tired of that?

• 50:44Speaker 01

  You know, that's a really interesting point and it makes sense on paper. I can't say that I've ever felt like I'm carrying a burden that isn't mine. I feel like I put this on myself.

• 50:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  And so I feel like I've strengthened my shoulders and back enough that I know the weight that I'm carrying. I have it on my shoulders. And if anything, it's like, that's sort of the, the drive behind all of it. So even if there is something that maybe to someone else might seem like a negative, I haven't even in my head, registered that thing as negative because I see it as a part of this larger purpose. Like yes, on paper, I am not a normal college student. I don't have the luxury, luxury that most college kids where they can just hang out and chill all day and go do this and hang out with their friends.

• 51:26Ryan Holiday?

  Cause they don't like it anymore.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  And quit because I don't like it anymore or go to a party and stay out super late. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm in bed, super early. I'm getting good sleep. I'm not out. I don't drink or do any of this other stuff. And so to the average person, that looks like one of those things that sucks. What a burden. You have to do this. You have to do that. You have to get up and go to the track, but I see it as, I love this shit. I, this is so enjoyable. And so I don't even characterize it as a negative thing. Or for example, I don't eat, I don't eat sugar. I don't eat any desserts a year round. And my family's think, my family thinks I'm crazy. Like just have one bite of the cake. I don't, I won't even have one bite. One bite, nothing.

• 52:03Ryan Holiday?

  Just off the table.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Off the table. And to the average person, it's like, what a miserable life, but it's like, no, I love this. I love eating the steaks. I love eating healthy. I love the opportunity to be in better shape when the season rolls around and perform at the highest level. So I don't see it as a negative, if that makes sense.

• 52:17Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you were just saying your, your mom's like, when you go in, you gotta have your chest out and your chin up. And like, I gotta imagine, especially when you're a kid, there's moments where you're like, I just want to sulk into this room and feel sorry for myself.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 52:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. But you don't get to, or you don't allow yourself to.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  The philosophy that my parents sort of instilled in me is not that I am to be void of any negative or insecure feelings, but rather feel them, accept them, and then remind myself of the things that helped me work through them. And so I had many moments growing up where yes, I would cry to my parents as a young kid and say, why did God give me one leg? And why am I the only kid in my school with a disability? And that's of course tough. And in the same vein, I have moments on the track, like a few weeks ago where I'm, you know, really struggling and sort of battling my own insecurities of, am I good enough?

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Am I, you know, able to accomplish these larger goals? Am I the athlete that I say I am, that I vocalize like, who am I? Right. Of course, um, it's just about learning to navigate through that. And I feel like that's what I've become really good at is in those moments, sort of picking myself back up and piecing myself back together. And then, and then moving forward almost even stronger because of sort of those darker moments. I, I really, I really have felt a lot of them. I mean, there was, uh, there was one point where I sort of had this realization as a young kid where I was like sulking in this really dark place. And I thought to myself, well, I genuinely can't change this. I can't change the fact that I have a physical disability. I'm not benefiting myself at all by just sulking in this place. Why don't I just say,

• 53:58Speaker 01

  fuck it and make the most out of my life. And so it's, it's those moments that have, have shaped me into the person I am.

• 54:05Ryan Holiday?

  Did your dad ever send you any emails about Epictetus?

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Maybe I didn't, I didn't, I just looked at a few of them. I didn't.

• 54:10Ryan Holiday?

  So Epictetus is one of the Stoic philosophers. So he's born a slave or into slavery. He spends 30 years of his life in slavery. And he's owned by this sort of cruel master. And so there's one scene that we, we hear about where the master is just like sadistically torturing him for some reason. And he, he ends up breaking Epictetus's leg. And in a way, or back then, when the medical care was so bad, it, it doesn't heal right. And so he walks with this limp the rest of his life. So he's known. If you see some of the ancient etchings or drawings of Epictetus, he's usually with a crutch. Because he, this, this leg is lame as the parlance of the day was. And so he has this famous quote where he goes like, lameness is a disability of the leg, but not of the mind.

• 54:54Ryan Holiday?

  And his point was that like, it actually doesn't really matter that much that my body is disabled in some way. Because for the Stoics, the only thing that mattered was what we think about it. And no physical injury to the body affects how we think about it. That is still in our control. And so ironically, or interestingly, Stoicism is at its core, sort of a philosophy built around, how do you make sense of and integrate something like this into your life?

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Absolutely. That's a beautiful quote because in many ways, probably makes him more mentally resilient.

• 55:30Ryan Holiday?

  Sure. It's a metaphor.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  It's a metaphor, you know? And so I definitely resonate with that. And that's, that's super true. I'm not the person I am today without my disability. People you ask me all the time, they say, oh, do you think you'd be super successful this or that if you had two legs or whatever? And I say, absolutely not. The grit and the way I approach my goals and the person I am is a direct product of the stuff I've gone through, of my disability, of the experiences I've had, the same way, you know, you're, you're not the same person without those, those real difficult times.

• 56:00Ryan Holiday?

  You know, it probably, you would be normal.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:04Ryan Holiday?

  In, in the non-positive sense, like you would probably just be like everyone else you went to school with.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  And everything I'm trying to be right now is the antithesis of normal.

• 56:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And normal is, it's, it's ordinary versus extraordinary, right? You would be ordinary. You'd have all the facilities and, you know, advantages of everyone. And then the disadvantage would be that you would take those things for granted. And when things were hard, you would probably quit. Or when something didn't go your way, you would accept it. And you, you probably also, your parents would have probably not been so intentional about the lessons and the values that they imparted because they would have gone like, he'll figure it out. It's not that hard, you know?

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 56:49Ryan Holiday?

  Instead, they had to sort of put you through a kind of, uh, training school for the life that, you know, if you didn't have certain skills was awaiting you. And then they succeeded so much in that, that you became extraordinary instead of ordinary.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Thank you. No, that's great. It's absolutely right. It's super interesting to think about and it's such a fun thought experiment. Cause you don't realize it, similarly to how we were talking about that oftentimes you don't realize maybe how things add up over time until you get to a point that's easily understood or easily marked.

• 57:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  In the same way that, you know, you don't realize how much of your life is tied to certain parts of your identity until you take a real step back and think about it. And, you know, I don't think of myself as just a disabled person. Now, when I think of myself throughout the day, I don't think, oh, I have one leg and two fingers all the time. That doesn't cross my mind. But then when you really take a step back and think about how many parts of my life and personality and character and upbringing has been tied to navigating something that is such a big part of my physical life. It's super interesting, you know? Who am I without that?

• 58:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. You think you want it to go a certain way or you want to be dealt a certain hand. And it doesn't really matter what you think because you don't get a say.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 58:09Ryan Holiday?

  But, but it turns out that oftentimes what you got, if you respond right, turns out to be exactly the right thing.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  It all impacts who you become. And then, and so that's, that's a great point. My dad said that, I was doing this radio interview and I was a young kid and I was maybe 10 or 11. And they asked me, or this question, they said, if you had the opportunity to go back and change your disability, would you do it? And my dad was there. It was the first time I had ever been asked a question like that. And I looked the host dead in the eyes and I was like, absolutely not.

• 58:40Ryan Holiday?

  Wow.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  And my dad said it was really special for him to hear that.

• 58:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Because that had me and I had really come around to accepting who I was and in fact, loving that part of myself.

• 58:51Ryan Holiday?

  Sure. And it's like, now you have the weight of it as opposed to them, right? You know what I mean? Like, they took you to a certain point and now you're walking on your own, like sort of metaphorically.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  If I had the opportunity to go back, I wouldn't because that's how appreciative I am for the person that I've become.

• 59:08Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, that's beautiful. That's, they're like, he's gonna be all right. He's got, you want to go check out some books?

• 59:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 59:26Speaker 02

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