Victimhood & Self-sabotage Is Destroying The World In 2022: Africa Brooke

Africa Brooke is a speaker and podcast host, who has built a community that has helped hundreds of thousands of young people navigate the unique pressures of the world today. From binge drinking to cancel culture, sexual empowerment to race and politics - Africa isn’t afraid to speak completely honestly and frankly about anything. No one has come in to speak to us with as much honesty and vulnerability as Africa. This is a one-of-a-kind conversation that left us speechless. There's never a topic on Diary of a CEO that’s off-limits, we will always bring you the world’s leading people telling their honest truth. What to make of their opinions is up to you, but as soon as Africa walked through the door of my kitchen to record, any pre-conceptions of what she was about to say were left on the other side. She certainly didn’t hold anything back. Follow Africa: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/africabrooke/ Website - https://africabrooke.com/ Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  If I'm not drinking or snorting something, what the fuck do I actually enjoy doing? You know, who am I?

• 0:06Steven Bartlett?

  Africa Brooke is a speaker, a podcast host, and she's helped hundreds of thousands of people see the world in a new light.

• 0:15Steven Bartlett?

  Africa does not give a fuck, and that's why I love her.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  If you're on the left, then you're the good person. If you're on the right, then you're the bad person. We're hanging out online where these platforms incentivize binary thinking. Are you with us or are you against us? There's only so much you can take. Most people didn't like when I said that as a black person, I'm not oppressed. That there is a very real difference between being a victim and making victimhood an identity. Because if you don't think that you're worthy, that's always going to be the belief that you feed every single time.

• 0:50Steven Bartlett?

  What became your dark side?

• 0:52Speaker 00

  From the age of 14, I was a blackout drinker. That's when I started to see that I was behaving in the exact same way that my dad did.

• 1:06Steven Bartlett?

  Sex and sexuality. Can you talk to me about what you've learned about those topics that might benefit me?

• 1:12Speaker 00

  Well.

• 1:14Steven Bartlett?

  Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:29Steven Bartlett?

  Africa. Let's, I mean, if you've seen this podcast before, it's no surprise where I'm going to start. But I was reading about your story. I was reading about where you grew up and where you were originally born. Give me your earliest, most relevant context. Give me the context of where you came from and how that context shaped the person that sits here with me today.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  Oh, that's good. So I'm Zimbabwean, I'm from Zimbabwe and I think this accent always fools people into thinking that I was born and raised here, but I was born in Zimbabwe, which is in the south of Africa. And I came to the UK when I was nine years old, so I remember my life back home in Zimbabwe quite clearly and vividly, actually. I don't remember it being hard apart from my experiences with my father. Even though he could be the most charming man and he was such a beautiful man, he was the kind of person that walks into a room and you can feel that Maxwell has arrived, just a very beautiful spirit.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  But when he was drunk, he could be very different, completely different. So I think the times that I can remember experiencing most of my sadness or frustration as a child was experiencing that side of my father because he could be very abusive and he was physically abusive to my mum and to myself and my siblings. But I don't even look at those things and think that I had a horrible childhood in Zimbabwe. I have so many wonderful, wonderful memories of being home and I still call it home. You know, when people ask me where I'm from, I always say Zimbabwe before I say the UK or that I'm British. Um, yeah.

• 3:17Steven Bartlett?

  You know, when you say that you you look back on Zimbabwe with fond me- fond memories.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:21Steven Bartlett?

  Um, is that because at the time, when in your household, you didn't understand that behaviour? You didn't understand that it was bad behaviour or that it was abnormal? Or is it genuinely because on on balance, you you consider it to be a a happy childhood?

• 3:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's actually the latter. I think I definitely understood that this wasn't right, although, to be honest, there were a lot of behaviours that my father exhibited that were considered normal just because of the culture. For example, things like disciplining your wife through hitting her, et cetera, et cetera, or your children. It was just kind of seen as normal. But I definitely knew that it wasn't right. I definitely knew that there was a problem. I knew that seeing a person that is that drunk was not something that felt comfortable. It wasn't remotely normal. And I'm able to now, I think in adulthood, hold multiple truths, which is something, interestingly enough, that I speak about a lot in my work. The importance of being able to hold multiple truths.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  Because like I say about my dad, I saw him as a bad person. I saw him as an evil person even, and he passed away in two thousand and four. And I never mourned his death because of the resentment that I was holding towards him. But then, when I got sober years later, I had to hold multiple truths about him to realise that he was a beautiful man. I got to experience him in the very early years of my life as being a very present father, um, as being a very loving father before alcohol came into his life in the way that it did. So I had to then start holding multiple truths about him. Because it wasn't all bad.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  So I think I hold those fond memories because I've had to realise that they did actually exist beyond everything else.

• 5:14Steven Bartlett?

  You said in your teen years, you started to realise that he'd been, um, how bad he'd been to your, your mother.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:22Steven Bartlett?

  How did you start to realise that at that age?

• 5:24Speaker 00

  Um, through stories, um, through speaking to my siblings about what we had all experienced in the home. Because we never really spoke. I, I don't know what it's like in your family or when you were growing up, but we never really spoke about much, especially when it came to things that were potentially hard to talk about, things that revolved around emotions and being vulnerable, things that had anything to do with intimacy or a lack of intimacy. Even the most obvious things, like seeing my mum being hit and not talking about it, almost just pretending that it didn't happen. So I think in adulthood, when I started seeing how other families were,

• 6:08Speaker 00

  when I started to see how open other people are, I then started to see the lack in what I had experienced growing up. So I think that's when I started to kind of want, I wanted to know more. Did anyone else see what was happening? Did my aunts and uncles know what was happening? Um, why didn't anyone talk about it? Why didn't anyone talk to us? Why, so I think I had so many. Why type of questions, which fueled a lot of my resentment. Yeah.

• 6:37Steven Bartlett?

  Some of the times you used there, you said before alcohol showed up in his life.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Um.

• 6:42Steven Bartlett?

  As you'll know, um, these things tend to, we tend to attract these things into our lives. Usually as, as you describe it as a, a firm lid to hold some trauma. I think was some terminology used previously um in some, some of your work.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:58Steven Bartlett?

  Did you ever understand the trauma that he was trying to um bottle up using alcohol?

• 7:06Speaker 00

  You know what? That's something that is still unfolding. Because I think there's only so far that other family members will go in terms of really telling me and my siblings or anyone else that wants to know the reality of what was really going on. But I think he was also from a family where people didn't really have many conversations. His younger brother had committed suicide when he was twenty six. Um, and there were other instances of mental health. And that wasn't really spoken about as well because, because culturally people just didn't talk about these things.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  So I think there were things that he was suppressing that I'll never ever know about. So I think I've had to make peace with the fact that I, I won't be able to get all of the answers as to why and how. I just have to understand what did happen and what I experienced and forgive where I can, get answers where I can. And also let go of expectations.

• 8:08Steven Bartlett?

  I had, I had a guest on this podcast called Tim Grover and he, he talked about his early upbringing. He was, he ended up being Michael Jordan's and Kobe Bryant's trainer. And he says that um our childhood experiences tend to create our brilliance, but they also create our dark side.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 8:23Steven Bartlett?

  And he referred to it as his dark side. He told me about his dark side.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:27Steven Bartlett?

  Um, dark side can sometimes mean insecurities. It can mean the, the, the worst traits or character flaws within us, but.

• 8:36Steven Bartlett?

  From the experience you had, what became your dark side?

• 8:40Speaker 00

  Um, oh, that's a fantastic question. You know what? I ended up replicating pretty much the same drinking behaviour that my dad had. From the age of fourteen up until twenty four, when I finally got sober, so a decade long. Um, I was a blackout drinker. I was a binge drinker, very specifically. I didn't know when to stop because my intention was never to stop from the first time that I drunk. It's almost as if something magical happened. I realised that I could change who I was, that I didn't have to feel insecure anymore. That I didn't have to think about the areas in which I'm different.

• 9:22Speaker 00

  The areas in which can lead to me being abandoned because I'm different. And what I mean specifically by that is when I came to the UK when I was nine years old. I always say this and I will continue saying it because it was one of the. Something that I love that, but it was quite big. It was the first time that I realised that I'm black. I had never, Stephen, had to think about it before, ever had to think about it. But we moved to Kent when, in two thousand and one, when we first came to the country. And in my school, it was probably me and my sister and one other boy called Curtis. We were the only black kids in the entire school.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  And I know you've shared your similar experiences with kind of just seeing just how much you stand out in an environment that you have to be in. And we were living in Kent for about three years and then we moved to London. But the imprint was already made, the insecurity around who I was as a young black girl. When I moved to London, it was completely different because now I was seen as pretty. I was seen as attractive, but that was also very confusing in itself because I still didn't quite fit in. Because now to most of the black people that I was around, I was white because of the way that I spoke.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  By the time I was fourteen and I drunk alcohol for the first time, it sort of silenced all of those things. I remember it was in a park with some friends and. The more that I drunk, the more confident I became, or so I thought. Um, and the more that I just felt at ease in myself and in my body and with the people around me. Even though I didn't start binge drinking or blackout drinking from that moment, an imprint had been made. A pattern started to develop that every time that I drunk from that time, the intention was to get fucked up. The intention was to experience that same level of comfort and confidence that I felt that first time.

• 11:29Speaker 00

  And I tried and did replicate that same pattern over and over and over and over again for ten years. And that's when I started to see that I was behaving in the exact same way that my dad did. So I think that's the sort of shadow that started to form.

• 11:50Steven Bartlett?

  Lying.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Um.

• 11:52Steven Bartlett?

  That became a habit of yours.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  It did, compulsive lying.

• 11:56Steven Bartlett?

  What what was compulsive lying doing for you on a psychological level? What was it? What was it allowing you to escape from or escape where to? Was it allowing you to escape to?

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Um, it was allowing me to feel accepted. It was allowing me to sort of create my own world. Because the world that I'd been in, a world where someone that was supposed to protect me and my siblings and my family um, did the complete opposite and damaged our family in a very, very, very big way. I remember that it did start in Zimbabwe. When I would be at school and I was quite young, maybe even six, probably around six or seven.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  I would go to school and sort of tell other kids about my dad and who he was and how amazing he was and all these things that he would he would do. And parts of it were true, but most of it wasn't. Most of it was just me trying. To create a reality that I could live with, a reality that made me feel safe, a reality that made me feel comfortable, a reality that other people could sort of step into for a moment and think, wow, that's, that's incredible. So therefore it would make me incredible in some kind of way. So I think I started to get rewarded for that. And then it just became habitual because any time that I felt like I wasn't fitting in, in the way

• 13:26Speaker 00

  that I wanted to, or that things were happening within our home, that were just very uncomfortable. And I didn't, again, have the language for this. It was, it was all just feeling, knowing that something is quite wrong. I would then go into a different environment and just create a story. And I, when you were speaking to example, I think he was talking about something similar in relation to lying, where he was saying kind of embellishing the truth, if you will, to kind of create a story. And I resonated with that so much because I think that's exactly what it was for me, just trying to create a different world. And when alcohol was a part of that as well, it was just even more explosive. And I think there was something quite addictive about that, being able to create your own

• 14:11Speaker 00

  reality and convince other people that that reality is actually true. So it would, it was definitely a big part of my drinking, something that would come out.

• 14:22Steven Bartlett?

  It's so interesting because when you were describing why you lied, a lot of people listen to this and think, well, I can't relate because I'm not a liar.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:29Steven Bartlett?

  But the lens in which I sort of heard that through is, pretty much everyone listening to this is lying for the same reason. The words you used were to create a reality. Then you said, I would be rewarded for, and I found it better to live in. And if you think about an Instagram filter.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes.

• 14:47Steven Bartlett?

  That's a, that's a form of creating a world where you feel more comfortable and get more rewards for. Even like the, the selection of the, the online identity that some, some of us create, where we show just the very best, or we try and change how we look or whatever, that is surely a form of lying to get better rewards and to, to create a world where you feel more comfortable and safer to live in.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:08Steven Bartlett?

  Like you, you know, and so lying is not just saying something which is not true.

• 15:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:13Steven Bartlett?

  It's a morphing of one's identity to create a safer, I guess, identity or story.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:19Steven Bartlett?

  That the world might reward you for. But in doing so, you obviously abandon yourself.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  Exactly. So it's like a. Another word that comes to mind as we talk about is deception, right? It's a form of deception. And I think it, for me, it was not even just about deceiving other people. It was deceiving myself so that I could live with myself better. You know, if I see myself through this lens. But yeah, it's very interesting how we can hear certain words and think, no, that doesn't, that doesn't resonate with me. I don't do that. But then it just shows up very subtly in the things we do every single day. But yeah, lying was a, was a huge thing, was a huge, huge thing for me. And it's something that I really had to look dead in the eye when I got sober six years ago.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:08Steven Bartlett?

  Going back to that, that period where you were drinking and you were engaging in certain abandonment style behaviours to try and escape from, you know, this, who you were. What is the cost of abandoning yourself? What is the cost? I know it's quite a profound thing, but what was the cost for you of that continual for almost 10 years, finding ways to abandon yourself?

• 16:31Speaker 00

  The cost was that I, I never got to know myself. I never got to know myself, not in the ways that I really wanted to anyway. I got, I got to know the version of me that I thought people wanted. So I wasted a lot of time doing that. And there was also a very real mental cost. Because waking up next to someone, not knowing where you are, not knowing if you've had sex with that person. There's a huge mental cost to that. On your self-esteem, it feels a lot of shame. It feels a lot of guilt because I would be in relationships sometimes when these things would happen.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  Not, not have I cheated on my partner or was this just something innocent because my clothes are still on? So it, it really, really had a huge mental cost. So there was a lot of anxiety. There was a lot of insecurity. I would even say, you know, a low level paranoia. Because when you wake up not knowing whether you've done something, but feeling like you will need to apologize for something. Going through my phone, just to have an idea of what I've done or what I didn't do. Who was I with? How did I end up all the way in fucking Surrey when I was in Soho not too long ago?

• 17:48Speaker 00

  So there was a huge mental cost, but also there was a spiritual cost. Because, just like I said, right, a few moments ago, not getting to know yourself. And then getting sober further down the line and feeling like you're a newborn baby. I I didn't even know what I liked to do. What the fuck do I actually enjoy doing? If I'm not drinking or smoking something or snorting something, what do I actually, what do I enjoy? You know, who am I as an individual without all of those things? Can I even be by myself? So there was a huge spiritual cost. And once I realised the cost of all of those things, it was around the same time that I discovered

• 18:34Speaker 00

  the concept of self sabotage, right, when you get in your own way. And that helped me so much, just to even have that language to understand what this thing actually was. Why I had been in the destructive cycle for such a long time.

• 18:50Steven Bartlett?

  I want to just, on that point of the destructive cycle, because when you were explaining waking up, you know, the next day somewhere you don't know, you don't know what you've done the night before. And that giving you guilt, it hurting your self worth, it's, it was. My my brain was going, well, this was meant to be the the medicine for a lack of self worth.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:10Steven Bartlett?

  And it ends up taking even more of your self worth. So it's this kind of race to the bottom of your self esteem by thinking that the medication is this kind of destructive abandonment behaviour. And it's, and that's weirdly self reinforcing. So you do it to try and escape. But it harms you so much that you need that, maybe that sort of surface level attention, the alcohol even more. So that leads you in the same place and that vicious cycle to the bottom of your self esteem.

• 19:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:37Steven Bartlett?

  And then trying to pick yourself apart of that is

• 19:40Steven Bartlett?

  one hell of a task.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. It it's probably one of the most grueling things I've done. Which is why actually, I'm I'm actually very grateful for all of those times that I did relapse. Because I think I was reminded every single time just how much I wanted to break this fucking cycle. And how much I had to, because it's so.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  Anything that is familiar, anything that is familiar feels safe in some way, even though objectively it might look like, how is this person not changing their life? Clearly, they're losing everyone around them, and I'm talking about myself. Losing everyone around them, can't even stay in any job for longer than a month, unable to commit to anything, incredibly unreliable. How can they not see that something needs to change? But the thing is, when you are in that cycle of self-destruction, self-sabotage, if it feels familiar, it's kind of all you know. That when I would have those bursts of sobriety, where I'd be sober for three months and six months,

• 20:49Speaker 00

  and I didn't have any chaos, I didn't have any drama, I was reliable. People were saying that they're proud of me. You know, I could see that I was doing well. It made me uncomfortable. It made me uncomfortable because it didn't feel familiar. And there was always this thing in the back of my mind that would sort of say, you're gonna fuck up anyway, so might as well just, might as well just do it now, you know? And that's when the justifications would come. Things like, I haven't had a drink in six months, so maybe if I just have one, it's going to be different, you know? Or I would say things like, I have a problem with alcohol,

• 21:30Speaker 00

  but cocaine is not the problem, so maybe I can still have a line every now and again. And then, you know, and then I can still be with my friends. And so all of these justifications, but when I really looked at it, I was uncomfortable with my life actually being drama-free, chaos-free, and being reliable, being able to be there for the people that I love. Because I was just so comfortable in that destruction. And I chose it every single time, until I didn't, until I couldn't.

• 22:00Steven Bartlett?

  If someone's listening to this, and they're in one of those sort of downward... Negatively reinforcing self-esteem cycles.

• 22:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:08Steven Bartlett?

  Where you're carrying out a behaviour because it, because you have low self-esteem. But then that behaviour is actually resulting in a lowering of your self-esteem. It can be a toxic relationship where you're staying because they took your self-esteem. So you think that they're the ones that can give it back, but they're hurting you even more.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:23Steven Bartlett?

  I see that a lot in my DMs.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:25Steven Bartlett?

  Or it can be other. What advice would you give to someone to try and break out of that, um, that negatively reinforcing self-esteem cycle?

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Um, I think one of the things, I think questions are always the best place to start. I always like to think of self-sabotage and self-destruction as self-protection. You're actually protecting yourself from something. And, and a lot of it is unconscious. You're not consciously deciding to get in your own way. You're not consciously deciding to stay in chaos and drama because you just absolutely love it. Maybe for some people that might be the case, but for most of us, it's entirely unconscious. But I think getting clear on what the benefits are, because you're getting some kind of reward from it. Right? Because if you don't think that you're worthy, if you don't think that you're lovable, that's always going to be the belief that you feed every single time.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  It's some kind of confirmation. It's like a see, I, I see, I said that I wasn't unlovable. That's why I choose someone who shouts at me. That's why I choose someone who manipulates me. That's why I choose someone who cheats on me over and over again. That's why I choose someone who shames me or whatever the details might be. So I think there's always some kind of reward that we're getting from that situation. And I think it can be a very, it sounds quite abstract, but I think it can be an important question to ask yourself. What am I, what reward am I actually getting from this? And is this going to be worth it in the long term? And all of this, to me, it kind of sounds like shifting your identity and what you're used to, and allowing yourself to get used to things that might not be familiar yet.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  I think you also have to understand that when you're breaking some kind of cycle, it's going to be uncomfortable. That's why I'm a huge advocate for discomfort, because I think a lot of us, when we change a pattern, the moment we feel uncomfortable, even though it's good for us, the moment we feel uncomfortable, we pull the plug. And we often pull the plug so prematurely. So I think one of the things that I would suggest, and I say this to my clients and anyone that I speak to. Allow yourself to be in that discomfort because a lot of the time it's where you currently are with your identity and the identity that you're trying to step into, someone who is more lovable, for example, but that middle part is going to be quite uncomfortable and you

• 24:42Speaker 00

  just have to stay there while things sort of reconfigure.

• 24:47Steven Bartlett?

  Is that like because you're contending against two counter narratives or counter stories?

• 24:52Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 24:52Steven Bartlett?

  And it takes time to believe a new story. So you're gonna have to sit in maybe a feeling of him feeling like a bit of an imposter or, you know what I mean? It's almost like it's evidence, right? At the end of the day, all these stories are backed by either true or false, but it's subjective evidence of who you are and what the world thinks of me and what I'm capable of. So.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  That's it.

• 25:10Steven Bartlett?

  Rewriting new evidence is not an easy or a quick.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  No, no, and it's not supposed to be because I think, um, I think we also have this idea that it's supposed to be easy, you know, that kind of, once you make a decision and you decide that you're going to do it, that it should just work. And if it doesn't, if it's uncomfortable, that means it's wrong. That means you should pull the plug. That's not, that's not always the case.

• 25:33Steven Bartlett?

  What you, what do you still self sabotage with? Or how do you still self sabotage?

• 25:42Speaker 00

  You know what it is for me? Romantic relationships. And it always helps me when I'm very honest about the fact that this is an area where I still have self sabotaging tendencies. So what that looks like is

• 25:57Speaker 00

  feeling when someone is trying to get close to me, I will immediately start to feel suffocated. I'll start to feel like I need to find something wrong with you so that you don't get too close, even if I want you to get close. But it's because there's a

• 26:20Speaker 00

  a part of me doesn't want to be vulnerable because vulnerability in that area means being exposed. It means being raw.

• 26:27Steven Bartlett?

  Exposed to what?

• 26:28Speaker 00

  Exposed.

• 26:30Steven Bartlett?

  Vulnerable to what?

• 26:33Speaker 00

  You know what I think it is? I think it's a, to put it very simply, I think it's it's a feeling of if you really get to know me, you might abandon me. And I think this is not something that's even, you know, on a conscious level, because I have a strong sense of self, I know who I am, et cetera, et cetera. But I think there is still those sort of traces from childhood, from everything that I've experienced in my life, that are those remnants of that, that have that voice that say, if I really let you in and you actually get to know me, you might abandon me. So what I need to do, I need to find a way to get in there first and abandon you before you abandon me.

• 27:16Speaker 00

  So that might look like, as I said, once the person is starting to kind of get close, I will feel suffocated. I'll feel like, okay, it's getting too much. I need my own space. What's what's wrong with you?

• 27:27Steven Bartlett?

  Danger.

• 27:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, huh, danger.

• 27:30Steven Bartlett?

  Where did you learn that model that a romantic relationship might be danger?

• 27:33Speaker 00

  Oh, gosh, I mean, take a guess, take a guess. The the first relationship that I ever saw, a man and a woman, a couple being together, was my mother and my father. And that's the model in which I had to kind of build my own idea of romantic love and what relationships look like. So I've never wanted to get too close. And I could never have said this to you before. I didn't have language for it, but when I looked at the patterns from relationship to relationship, I always saw that they had a timeline as well, never going anywhere beyond the one year mark. Always feeling like, okay, that's enough. We've done our time. Let's let's.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  Yes. So I think romantic relationships is one, and I also had one in terms of money. And this one, I really had to nip it in the bud when I started my consulting firm five years ago.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  I used to sabotage any opportunity to potentially make more money than my mum. So my mum is a nurse. So when I started sharing my sobriety story and I started realising that I'm actually very good at what I do in terms of speaking, in terms of supporting people. I'm a very curious person and I do have a powerful story. A powerful story that allows me to reach so many different types of people. So it gained a lot of traction quite early on in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. So I would start getting speaking opportunities. In the beginning, everything was sort of free and I was okay with that. Never had to negotiate things around money. Money was not something that was spoken about in my family growing up.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  I don't know what it was like for you, but the only time that money conversations were really had was through arguments. You would only hear money spoken about where there wasn't enough money, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I always had so many different money stories. Money is very hard to come by. Money doesn't grow on trees. You have to work hard for money. So many ideas about rich people. Rich people are bad, rich people are this. And no one in my family explicitly said that, but I think culturally it was sort of just a thing. People don't have to explicitly say it culturally. We all know what the stories are. So when I would hear or get emails saying, Africa, we'd love for you to speak at this thing. It's just half an hour. What is your rate?

• 30:01Speaker 00

  We're offering three K. I would just experience so much discomfort, knowing that my mum is working so many hours as a nurse on her feet and she's probably making half of that or just about that. So what I would do, and this was not a conscious thing until I started looking at my money story. I would let those emails sit. Any email that was saying I would be getting paid. I would let those emails sit until it was too late. They've probably offered someone else because I just felt so uncomfortable making money so easily. So I would sabotage any opportunity to get paid. But if it was free, I will reply straight away, I'll do it.

• 30:44Speaker 00

  But when you're in business, that doesn't fucking work. It doesn't work. But even outside of that, I I was shown that because I was incapable of receiving when it came to money. I was incapable of receiving in so many areas. I was incapable of receiving love fully because when I did, I would shut down because a part of me thinks I don't deserve it. I was incapable of receiving opportunities because I'd feel like this has happened way too easily. I'm supposed to, it's supposed to be hard, but this is so easy. So I would be suspicious of it and sabotage it. So those are the two main areas that I've really had to do some work on over the past years.

• 31:24Steven Bartlett?

  On the first point, um, you were very much preaching to the choir there, as I've talked about quite a few times on this podcast. Why do I see relationships as like a bird trapped in a cage or or someone trapped in jail? Well, I go, well, that's what my father was. My father was trapped. My father, my whole life, I I was convinced he was trapped. That was my first model of what a romantic relationship was. So of course it was the most um, most evidence backed.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:48Steven Bartlett?

  And so you've got a, it's similar to what we were talking about earlier about like stepping into a new story.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 31:53Steven Bartlett?

  And although every part of your being is going, this is bad, you've got to stay.

• 31:57Speaker 00

  You do.

• 31:58Steven Bartlett?

  Communicate with, in this case, the person, say, by the way, this this happens, so.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:03Steven Bartlett?

  I struggle.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:04Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and hopefully build new evidence. And the right person can help you build new evidence.

• 32:09Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 32:10Steven Bartlett?

  Which is what my girlfriend helped me to do. She helped me to build without, by just being herself and not being a prison guard. She created new evidence and that new evidence is s- strong. It's not, the old evidence is still there.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 32:25Steven Bartlett?

  I don't actually think the old evidence will ever go.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  Oh, I love that you say that, Stephen. I really do because I think it's again, this idea that it has to go completely before we step into the other one. And I think that's what holds people back from fully stepping into their new identity because they think.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  If I'm really supposed to be here and this is actually real and I have all of this new evidence, that's not supposed to be there at all. And I think, again, those multiple truths, they can coexist. It's just what you choose to feed over and over again.

• 32:59Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And you, if you think of spiders, like, I'm not scared of spiders, but there's a part of me that goes, do you know what I mean? There's, there's a lot of evidence because I've seen other people running away from them. I've seen films, but I'm not, I know, like objectively, I've got enough evidence to say that the spiders, they don't even bite. You know, no one's dying of spiders, really. But I'm still, there's still a little bit of evidence that, be careful, you know? And I can exist with those two truths, as you, as you described it. You're totally right, though, in the sense that people expect them, that they will get to a place where they are healed and cured completely. And I, I just have never seen it.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Me neither, me neither.

• 33:36Steven Bartlett?

  I've never seen it.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  Ever. And I think we have a current culture, actually. So I'm a, I'm a coach and consultant and speaker, et cetera, who's in the realm of self-help, but despises the self-help industry for a multitude of reasons, because I think it perpetuates that idea, that idea of healing, as if it's a destination. You know, you sign up for this course, get this book, listen to this podcast, and then it's, it's done. Then you're healed. So I think there's a lot of people that are in a very good place, if you were to look at it in a very holistic way, but continuously believe that they have to rid themselves of these very human things and this, you know,

• 34:20Speaker 00

  inevitable human discomfort that we all experience. And they put labels on it to make it, you know, mean like it's this. So yeah, I think there's a, there is a culture right now where people are on this continuous journey of healing, when actually some of these things won't actually go away completely. And that's fine. That's normal.

• 34:40Steven Bartlett?

  That's an interesting thing, because there are some people out there as well, and I want to get your take on this, that have basically made healing their identity. It's their personal brand. It's their safe space. Being broken and healing is there. It's who they are and they've embraced that. Is that harmful and dangerous in your view?

• 34:55Speaker 00

  Absolutely. I think it is. I think it is because it's, it again perpetuates another idea, which ties into this, that We need to be on this pursuit of constantly fixing something, you know.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  And I think I've also seen people do that in the, as you say it as a brand, but people making it, yeah, making it the actual business, their public persona, this is who I am. And I think it encourages other people or makes other people feel that they need to do the same thing or that they need to sort of make their pain, their identity as well. You also see this with people who are contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian, right? I think that's why you.

• 35:43Steven Bartlett?

  They just have to disagree then.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  They just have to disagree with. No, no nuance. And they usually, that's why when I talk about, you know, this kind of seemingly a battle between the woke versus anti-woke, I always see that essentially they're quite the same, exactly the same. You will have the people that are, for example, anti-woke, want to be contrarian for the sake of it, you know, screaming about how woke everyone has got. If people are, let's say, talking about being inclusive, they'll just label that as woke. It's the exact same behaviour as they claim to oppose, which I find very interesting. How people can be so loud about something and be so convicted

• 36:25Speaker 00

  and be wanting to point out a specific type of behaviour, not realising that they're behaving in the exact same way. But I think it is part of that performance where people are being rewarded because they're performing in a very specific way. And they see that, okay, if I perform in this way, I'm going to get likes, I'm going to get opportunities, I get to to sort of feel, it really feeds the ego as well when you have your echo chamber and you have people that say yes to everything, you have people that see you as some sort of leader. But I think it's building some very interesting characters, online especially.

• 37:00Steven Bartlett?

  I wonder if both extremes, so the far left and the far right, I wonder if they're just both low self-esteem.

• 37:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:06Steven Bartlett?

  Because they're the ones that seem to need the reinforcement.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:10Steven Bartlett?

  I will be militant about these views because by being further over here, I'm getting more people that are clapping for me, you know? Whereas nuance seems to be a place where you don't care as as much about the clapping.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:22Steven Bartlett?

  You're not really doing it for the clap, you're doing it for, in my view, more for truth.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, I I see that a lot. And have you found?

• 37:32Speaker 00

  Would you say, I think from listening to everything you've said, I kind of have an idea of what this would look like for you, but would you say that you're more in that nuance? Would you say you've always been more in the middle? Or have you ever found yourself on either?

• 37:44Steven Bartlett?

  I used to think I was over on the left.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:46Steven Bartlett?

  Now I think I'm somewhere in the middle.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:48Steven Bartlett?

  So I can't, what you described earlier is like an intolerance of ideas. It's, you know, and both, both extreme sides, so the far left, the far right are both just really intolerant.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:01Steven Bartlett?

  And I, and they're not willing to have a conversation with anybody. So I find myself being pushed more towards the center point where I find people like me, people like you.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:11Steven Bartlett?

  I think, I don't know where you consider yourself to be on the spectrum.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  The, the exact same. I, you know what? I don't think I've ever even used language like I'm on the left or anything like that. And maybe there's something about being an immigrant, because when I speak to immigrants and people that are not from this country, I think we have a different relationship with politics in general. You will never really hear most people saying they're on the left or they're on the right. I think it won't really happen. Most people are, the majority of people really are in that center, in that middle ground. I would say if you were to look at my values and what I stand for objectively, yes, I'm a left-leaning person, but I don't make that my identity. I don't look at everything on that side and say, okay, check, check, check.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  I agree with that. Everything is context dependent. And there are many things that I agree with from different sides because I just look at what is the context? What are we talking about? Does this make sense to me? Is this applicable in real life? So that's the sort of process that I take myself through. And it's neither left or right. It's very much in the middle, like everyone, like the majority of people.

• 39:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I think the majority of people probably are, but, but I think especially in this day and age, it takes, it's much probably easier because you get to fit in if you're on either side.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:31Steven Bartlett?

  There's no club in the middle.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:33Steven Bartlett?

  There's no, you know what I mean? There's no uniform.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:35Steven Bartlett?

  In the middle. So you don't, you don't, those that might want to fit in and be reinforced by a group aren't going to find that in the middle ground.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:43Steven Bartlett?

  Pick a side. Do you see what I mean?

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:45Steven Bartlett?

  It's a club. They have, you know, a uniform, they have stickers, they have like a schedule, they have a doctrine.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 39:51Steven Bartlett?

  They have 10 commandments.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:53Steven Bartlett?

  And this is why people join cults, isn't it?

• 39:54Speaker 00

  It's true. And you know what? Speaking of cults, when I wrote, when I wrote my open letter,

• 40:02Speaker 00

  why I'm leaving the cult of wokeness, I

• 40:07Speaker 00

  was really trying to have this conversation because essentially I, I was speaking about what we're talking about now, an invitation into that middle ground where most people are, inviting people to acknowledge nuance and context, to really realise that black people, for example, we don't all think the same. We have very different experiences. We have very different opinions. We have very different beliefs, worldviews.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Most people that identify as being on the left would not have that conversation with me. It's only just starting to happen now. The only people that would be willing to have those conversations with me would be people that would be seen as being on the right. And I found that very interesting, that, you know, when you look at being a leftist, it is about being tolerant. It is about, well, I guess that would be, what would, what would that be? Would it be classic liberalism? I guess so. I guess so, right? But even that approach is seen as right wing now. So I understand why a lot of people really are, are getting pushed out of the left and more into the centre. Because most people would not have that conversation with me because the moment

• 41:16Speaker 00

  you critique something from the left, you're labelled as being on the right, which is just the most absurd thing I, I have ever heard. But I think now, two years on, things are starting to shift a little bit more. I think people have stopped being so fearful of what is known as cancel culture, even though I prefer to call it collective sabotage, because I think that's a much more accurate term for it. I think people are being less afraid now to ask questions, to be like, actually, let's, let's hear what this view actually is. We don't have to agree with it, but we can at least acknowledge that it exists. But I think people that are on the right, from my own experience, especially if we're talking about media, et cetera,

• 42:00Speaker 00

  have been more willing to have these conversations and to have more debates and to honour that grey more than the left.

• 42:09Steven Bartlett?

  I've, you know, I've probably had thousands of tweets from people telling me that I cannot speak to that person on my podcast, right? Thousands of tweets and I promise you, I've never had those tweets from someone on the right.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:21Steven Bartlett?

  No matter which guest I get on or what they believe, no one from the right has said, Steve, you cannot platform that person.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:27Steven Bartlett?

  It's never happened. So and that, that again, you're not help, you're, you're, you're, you're basically going to punish me if I don't say, think and have conversations that are in line with your doctrine.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:39Steven Bartlett?

  And for me, that for me has been alienating. And this is why I now consider myself to be more in the middle because I don't agree with that intolerance. I think I should be able to have a conversation with anyone, including Donald Trump.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:51Steven Bartlett?

  I, I, I hope I never get to the point where I would not be willing to have a conversation.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  Conversation.

• 42:55Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 42:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:56Steven Bartlett?

  That's a, that's a, that reminds me of like the, I don't know, 18th century. I know nothing about history, so I just named an old century. Reminds me of the 18th century when they used to like burn books because they didn't even want people to hear stuff.

• 43:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:07Steven Bartlett?

  And.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:08Steven Bartlett?

  Anyway, speaking of controversial topics, one of the things that's become surprisingly controversial over the last couple of years is, and probably for a little while longer, since the 17th century, is this idea of accountability, which to me seems like much of the antidote to self sabotage. It's like taking personal responsibility for your life and your situation. I've heard you talk about this. I actually think this was the first, the first, one of your first videos that caught my attention was you talking about taking responsibility in a really, you know, a fairly direct way. So tell me how taking responsibility, what that means to you, but how that helped you to rise out of that phase you had from 14 to 24.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, it was huge. It was huge. And it had to be one of the first things that I did. Actually, as I, as I think about this and sort of speak out loud, I think what allowed me to get and stay sober that eighth and final time was taking personal responsibility. I think all of the other times I had wanted to place blame on a lot of things outside of me. So my dad would have been the easiest person because he was an alcoholic and because of his abuse and because of everything we experienced and because of the instability, because of coming to a new country, moving to. A part of the UK where just me, my sister and Curtis are the only black kids.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  The adversity I experienced from that. So I think there were so many ways that I could externalize. Right. But I think the moment that I was able to say, okay, well, Africa, what part did you have to play in this? So you've experienced all of this adversity. What now? What fucking now? No one else can do it for you. And I think that helped me so much. And another thing that I had to do, which is a part of that responsibility and accountability, was making amends. So people that have followed the 12 step program, for example, will know that making amends is a huge part of it. I didn't follow the 12 step program. I.

• 45:07Steven Bartlett?

  What's the 12 step program?

• 45:08Speaker 00

  So 12 step is AA, essentially Alcoholics Anonymous. You go through a process, a 12 step process of accountability, essentially. And one of those steps is making amends, reaching out to the people that you've harmed and making amends. And that's what I had to do. And I, I really did that. And there was a lot of shame. There was a lot of guilt. There were a lot of people that didn't want to hear it. But there were a lot of people that were very grateful that even after all of these years, I'm coming to them and acknowledging something that I did or played a part in. And only then could I actually move forward with my sobriety, knowing that I am responsible.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  Yes, I've experienced a lot of adversity, but I am the one that gets to decide what now. So fast forward to finding ourselves in a culture where even just conversations around personal responsibility are, have been politicized. Cause I've noticed they're labeled as right wing. The moment, isn't that weird?

• 46:08Steven Bartlett?

  It's mad. It's mad.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Isn't that crazy? The moment you say, you do realize there is a lot in your life that you can control. You're called a bigot.

• 46:24Steven Bartlett?

  I'm a, I'm a puppet and I'm a victim. And there's nothing I can control.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  It's.

• 46:28Steven Bartlett?

  And it's that political party that did this. Okay?

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  And that, that is unfollowed.

• 46:39Steven Bartlett?

  It's fucking crazy.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  It's mad. And I think I've, I speak to my family and my friends about all of these things quite a lot, actually. And because I'm still very much in touch with everyone back home in Zimbabwe, and because I have that perspective, when I compare to that part of the world to the Western world, this just seems like a completely different world, like some kind of show. It can't be real, that people can get upset to know that there are things in your life that you can control. Yes, you might have experienced X, Y and Z, but you are responsible for how you move forward. Yes, there might be other components. Maybe it is the system. Maybe it is your familial environment, whatever the details

• 47:22Speaker 00

  might be, but there are also things within your control. The fact that people can label that as being bigoted, the moment you say, I just.

• 47:34Steven Bartlett?

  Wouldn't you want that to be the case? Wouldn't you want to have things that you can control? The thought of being powerless to my circumstances is the most terrifying thing in the world, you know, being a, being a, being, that's why I refer to it as a puppet, that someone else is pulling these strings.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:49Steven Bartlett?

  And I have, I'm powerless to my situation. So I think it's, I find it empowering and liberating to say, do you know what, there is a lot of things I can control. Yes, I'm, I'm broke. Yes, I'm in this situation, but there are, there's something that I can do.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:00Steven Bartlett?

  And I have to also express the nuance that you did, which is, there are a lot of people that are, that are disabled. There are a lot of people that have found themselves in horrifically unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:13Steven Bartlett?

  But I find it really important for my sanity of mind and my optimism for the future to know that there is something, often there is something that I can do to change my situation.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 48:23Steven Bartlett?

  That's a controversial idea.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  Imagine that, would you have thought that?

• 48:28Steven Bartlett?

  And I can hear the people typing down at you fucking bastard, you fucking.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Is it for you to say?

• 48:32Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, rich motherfucker with his guns.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  What, what, what, what is it though? Do you, do you think you know what that is?

• 48:39Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, because it holds a mirror up to you. It makes you feel like, for some people, and I think it was for me at some point as well, holding that mirror up and saying, do you know what? I might have had part to play in this and I'm actually, I ha- I can have a part in getting out of this situation. For some people, is it evidence of their inadequacy? That they just don't have the self-esteem to confront? So it's easier to blame. Blame is a nice, a nice shield. It's a nice way to deflect the attack against my already fragile self-esteem. I would do that, of course, when I was younger and someone might point at something. Blame was a way for you not to hit me in the self-esteem. It was a way of saying, no, no, no, no, no. That's not because I'm inadequate or because I'm not capable or I'm not smart or because I'm not working hard. It's because of this other thing.

• 49:22Steven Bartlett?

  And so leave me alone, Africa, block.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:26Steven Bartlett?

  It's like, do you know what I mean? That's, that's my analysis of it often is it's for some people, it's, it's look, it's a, it feels like evidence of their inadequacy.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:37Steven Bartlett?

  And why would someone not like that? Well, because it makes you feel like shit.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I, I think because we're also being encouraged, especially the younger generation, who I really now more than ever want to make more of an effort to really speak directly to them, is because I think we're, we're sort of training each other to not prioritize emotional resilience. Because along with personal responsibility, resilience is also another controversial word. You know, this, this idea that you can build a strong foundation within yourself that even if something happens externally outside of you, you are able to deal with it. You don't have to go into that deep, dark place and think that is it, full stop. So I think because most people.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Are not emotionally resilient and are not nurturing and sort of cultivating that within themselves. It continues that cycle where you just end up in perpetual victimhood. And then we are in a culture that rewards victims, you know, and I, I think self-correction there actually, and I want to make this very clear, that there is a very real difference between being a victim, someone who has genuinely been victimized, and making victimhood an identity. There's a, there's a huge difference between the two. But I think when you start to make victimhood an identity for anything and everything, that's when it might be time to actually hold a mirror up to yourself.

• 51:05Steven Bartlett?

  On that word resilience, I think the reason why resilience is in part at least why it's a controversial topic is because it kind of starts to merge into the lane of like mental health.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 51:17Steven Bartlett?

  And resilient people, when they think of resilience, they think of like shut up and deal with it.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:22Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean?

• 51:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:23Steven Bartlett?

  And then that, that acts in conflict to the narrative of like, express yourself, feel your emotions.

• 51:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 51:29Steven Bartlett?

  It's okay to be not okay.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:31Steven Bartlett?

  So ta- talk to me about the distinction you make between those two things and your relationship with both.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  You know what, I guess this is where I would bring it back round to holding those multiple truths. Because why do we think that we have to choose between one or the other? Why can't you be both emotionally resilient as an individual, as a being, and allow yourself to express yourself and allow yourself to be vulnerable and allow yourself to have those real low moments that we all do? And I think both can coexist. It's really not one or the other.

• 52:01Steven Bartlett?

  So what is the opposite of resilience then?

• 52:05Speaker 00

  Hmm. The word weakness comes to mind, but I don't know if that's accurate. I don't know if that's accurate to what.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  I'm not sure. But it's interesting because the word weakness comes to mind. And maybe a part of me, or even for someone listening, we.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  We think associating the word weak to yourself means there's something wrong with you, that it's a bad word. I think there's this idea that it's it's bad to be weak, or it's not acceptable to be weak. But I think we all have moments of weakness. But I don't know if that would be the opposite of of resilience. What do you think?

• 52:51Steven Bartlett?

  Um. So if we're talking about emotional resilience, maybe the opposite is emotional, maybe fragility, maybe, I don't know.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  It's something within that realm, right? Yeah.

• 53:03Steven Bartlett?

  And the reason I I'm basically playing devil's advocate with myself to see if to see if it is two truths, or if what we were describing earlier about being expressive and being in touch with your emotions, is that being emotionally fragile? Or is that something else?

• 53:17Speaker 00

  I wonder if another word that's coming to mind, for some reason, soft. I think it's both possible to be soft and whatever you would consider hard. Because just in very simple language, when I hear the word resilience, you have to be hard. There's something sort of, it's not necessarily stoic, but it but it's it's sort of that kind of language where you're really fully grounded in yourself, your back is straight, you're internally up, you know, whereas the other side of that is maybe, maybe there is an element of fragility, which is fine. I don't I don't think it's a bad thing, allowing yourself to be soft, allowing yourself to be, um, to not be as strong all of the time. So I I think.

• 53:58Steven Bartlett?

  It's interesting, because on one hand, you're saying be resilient, but then also be the opposite of resilience.

• 54:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. But it can, you can be both.

• 54:07Steven Bartlett?

  There could also be context, right?

• 54:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:09Steven Bartlett?

  It can be context specific behaviour. So you can be resilient in the sense that when someone pelts abuse at you in your Instagram DMs, you have the resilience to not internalise that, not let it destroy your day or your mood and to move on. But then you can be, I guess, emotionally, you know, then your dog might die. I've got a lovely dog running around somewhere here. My dog might die. And that is real cause for emotional expression and to be emotionally, to be soft and to be open and to feel.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 54:40Steven Bartlett?

  So maybe it's context specific behaviour.

• 54:42Speaker 00

  I think so. I think so. But again, I I think they can both coexist.

• 54:47Steven Bartlett?

  How did you get to this place of self-awareness? Because. You know, I, you know, we all know people who are repeating cycles and they have no, either they're taking no responsibility for it, or they just don't know that they're doing it.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:02Steven Bartlett?

  And sometimes as friends, and this is again, this is us looking in on the situation as if we know what's best for them. So there's an error there, but we look, we see friends, family going through cycles and they don't know what they're doing. And they don't, they don't understand themselves enough to the point where you are today, where you clearly, you exhibit a high self-awareness and understanding of yourself, your past, your behaviour and the causes of it. One of my favourite quotes that I've ever written, which is based on, based on a friend I had was, you can read as many books as you like, but if you can't read yourself, you'll never truly learn a thing. But you can also say, you can read as many books as you like, but if you can't read yourself, you'll never make progress.

• 55:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:38Steven Bartlett?

  Because you can have the information, but implementing it requires understanding the being in which

• 55:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:45Steven Bartlett?

  you're implementing that too. So how did you become so apparently self-aware?

• 55:50Speaker 00

  You know what, I think I've always loved to read. I've always loved to read and to, to hear other people's stories and to hear other people's thoughts. So one of the first people that I discovered, the eighth time that I got sober was Carl Jung. So he's an incredible psychotherapist who explores shadow work and, you know, shadow self, et cetera. And I think through his work and then finding many other teachers, many other mentors along the way, just through books mainly, books and self-study, I was able to finally have language for the things that I was experiencing internally. So I think it helped that I did have that foundation of already being quite a self-aware person,

• 56:33Speaker 00

  but now having language for my behaviour. And I think just through different practices, even reading something about why, you know, lying to yourself is a form of self-betrayal. It meant that every time that I was in a situation and I could feel myself about to lie, I would kind of challenge myself to not and to just say something different or to just say what I actually mean. So I think it's been a combination of self-study, reading, tuning into the self-awareness I already had, but using it in just a different way and actually stepping into the arena and practising. So I think that that has helped me kind of develop my sense of self over time.

• 57:15Steven Bartlett?

  What about writing?

• 57:17Speaker 00

  And writing, writing has always helped. But you know what's interesting? I found, especially in those ten years, I would write in my journal as if someone was going to read it. So I would lie.

• 57:30Steven Bartlett?

  What were you lying about in your diary?

• 57:33Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a good question. I was lying about how I really felt about my relationship. So I was writing as if my boyfriend at the time would read it.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  So I wasn't being completely honest about how unhappy I was. I wasn't being honest about cheating in our relationship when I was drunk. I wasn't being honest about my relationship with alcohol. I wasn't being honest about how I really felt about one particular family member who I really wanted to heal things with.

• 58:12Speaker 00

  But it felt weird because we, we didn't speak about emotional things in my family. So there was a lot of resistance around mending, mending that relationship, even though I knew exactly what I needed to do.

• 58:25Steven Bartlett?

  Why do you speak of that in past tense?

• 58:28Speaker 00

  Which part?

• 58:29Steven Bartlett?

  About that family member mending it. You speak of it as if it's past tense.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  What exactly did I say?

• 58:33Steven Bartlett?

  Just, um, you're referring to it as if you haven't mended it.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  I haven't.

• 58:38Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  I haven't. And I wrote that entry. It's in the journal that I found the other day. Thank you for pointing that out. I haven't. It's been seven years since I wrote that. So maybe now I'm gonna.

• 58:52Steven Bartlett?

  It's bothering you. I can see it in your face.

• 58:54Speaker 00

  Really?

• 58:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 58:56Speaker 00

  It does, it does. She was on that list of amends that I had to make back in twenty sixteen. And I made amends with everyone on that list apart from her. And I see her quite often. And there'll be times where I feel like I want to say something. Because there's not even anything specific that happened. It's just the way that I was behaving at the time that I was in the height of my, of my destruction. And she had just moved from Zimbabwe to here. And I was always her favorite cousin and we were so close.

• 59:38Speaker 00

  And she was so excited to see me and to see me after all of these years. And when she came, she didn't meet the me that she remembered. And I noticed that very early on. And now we're much older, seven years later, I can still see that there's a part of her that feels

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  hurt in some way, and I know that there's something that I can do and say to sort of break that. But I just, there's a lot of resistance around it because in my family,

• 1:00:15Speaker 00

  there're just certain conversations we don't have, but I've been starting to have those conversations with some family members. But she's just the one person that I haven't done it with yet.

• 1:00:25Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  I think there's almost a fear of the unknown, of what our relationship will look like beyond this. And I know it can sound mad because someone listening to this might think, just have the conversation. I'm a huge advocate for conversations that are uncomfortable. But when it comes to this, for whatever reason,

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  there's a fear of the unknown, even though I know that the unknown is going to be potentially a stronger relationship. So you could say there's almost a an element of self sabotage when it comes to this, but it's a fear of some kind of unknown around that.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  Any advice?

• 1:01:12Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I, I, I mean, I struggle with the same thing, so let's not pretend that I'm perfect in this arena. But what's some of the advice that sometimes helps reframe the decision is, you know, taking myself to the, to my deathbed and thinking about the decisions I would, if this was, if I was laying there and this was the last moments of my life, would I, what decision would I wish I would have made on this particular situation?

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Steven Bartlett?

  That's quite clarifying and it also, it also cuts out this kind of unconscious feeling that I think we all have, that there'll always be time to do it. We can always do it next year. But we don't live forever, unfortunately.

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:49Steven Bartlett?

  We live under the illusion that we do. That's why there's a sand timer on there. It's just a nice reminder to me that I'm actually not infinite, I'm finite. And so that gives me a little bit of urgency to make, um, to live in a less petty way and a more uh, a way that's more aligned with like my, my inner truth and my inner values. So what would you, you know, if this were, if you had, touch wood, diagnosed with something today and you, you thought, you know what? Going to get my home in order. Would you have that conversation?

• 1:02:15Speaker 00

  I would absolutely have that conversation. And you know what? I'm grateful, very grateful that you and I have just had this exchange because when I found that journal a few days ago and I saw that entry saying, I, I need to speak to her.

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  I wrote, I'm going to do this this week. And I finished the entry with,

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  if I don't do this, I'll never know what our relationship can be. I'm going to do this this week. And it was seven years ago.

• 1:02:47Speaker 00

  I'm gonna fucking do it this week. You're gonna get a message from me saying.

• 1:02:52Steven Bartlett?

  She no longer talks to me. Uh, she's blocked me on Instagram.

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  That's what the unknown was about. Wow. My goodness. And you know, again, what you've just done is hold a mirror up to, because I can feel a sort of tightness in my chest, but I also feel kind of like a relief in my shoulders at the same time. So it, it feels quite conflicting, but it makes sense.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  Because you've just held a mirror up to me. Because in every other area of my life, whether it's business or life or writing, I'm very sure I can have any type of conversation. I'm very assured and confident and know exactly what I need to do. But it's amazing how in certain areas, there's still that sort of childlike, oh, I can't, I can't do this. It's too much. That's too big. That's why having someone, even in a brief exchange, that can hold a mirror up to that part of you and just ask just one question without asserting or trying to put forward a specific thing you should do.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Just a question that can kind of make you think, oh, I hadn't actually thought about that.

• 1:04:07Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, I've got those things in my life too. So like,

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  Do you?

• 1:04:10Steven Bartlett?

  Of course I have. I've got conversations that I just, we all, we put off for various reasons.

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:14Steven Bartlett?

  I think one of the things as well that I, that I often ask myself is like, if you get too tied up in the outcome and it all becomes outcome dependent, what are they going to say? How is it going to be? You probably never make the decision, but if it becomes based on like, why do I need to do this for myself?

• 1:04:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:29Steven Bartlett?

  Irrespective of outcome. You know what I mean? Then you start living more in your truth.

• 1:04:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:34Steven Bartlett?

  And the second point I was going to say is that tightness in your chest, it's an interesting thing. Cause whenever we feel, find ourselves in those situations where something is making us uncomfortable. Or, you know, you described as that tightness in the chest.

• 1:04:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:45Steven Bartlett?

  The tightness in the chest is not gonna, um, doesn't leave us because we ignore it. It just, it, it's like this little insidious force inside of us that will eat us up in little ways. And we think often, as I have in my past, that if I just suppress or compartmentalize that.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:05:00Steven Bartlett?

  It will, that's the best way to deal with it. I think the way that you, we release whatever that tightness, the tightness in the chest is such a good indicator.

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:05:09Steven Bartlett?

  It means we've got work to do, right?

• 1:05:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:05:12Steven Bartlett?

  Cause I was thinking about that analogy, like that conversation didn't put the tightness in your chest. The tightness was already there.

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:18Steven Bartlett?

  The tension was already there.

• 1:05:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:19Steven Bartlett?

  You just, it just came to the surface.

• 1:05:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:22Steven Bartlett?

  So the way to never have the tightness again is to release with.

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  The thing.

• 1:05:28Steven Bartlett?

  The thing. The unaddressed.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things I've heard you talk about a lot is your, your journey and your evolving relationship with sex and sexuality.

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:05:41Steven Bartlett?

  And how that changed from when you were very young.

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:44Steven Bartlett?

  Through the period when you were drinking a lot.

• 1:05:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Steven Bartlett?

  Till today. Can you talk to me about that evolution and what you've learned about those topics? That might benefit me.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  Yes, absolutely. So.

• 1:06:00Speaker 00

  I'm going to sort of keep referring to my sobriety in that period of my life because it was so transformative and it revealed so much to me, so much that I could have never imagined at the time. So something that also happened when I got sober, I think this was about a year into my sobriety. I realised just how much sexual shame I was holding, so much of it. And I initially sort of wanted to fix it, wanted to do something about it. What are some surface level things that I can do? What can I read? What can I sort of dive into? How can I deal with it from where I am now as a twenty five year old?

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  But I quickly realised that I actually had to trace it back to see where it even comes from. And I realised, just like so many things, it did come from my childhood. Being raised in a Christian home, I learned, again, not directly, more so indirectly, that being a sexual being was not something that was off God. It was not something that was supposed to be a part of who I am. Pleasure was never discussed, sex was never discussed. Even intimacy in general, I never saw my parents hold hands. I never saw my parents hold hands. I never saw them kiss, I never saw them hug, I never saw any sort of affection.

• 1:07:24Speaker 00

  But I knew that they loved each other, I knew that they cared about each other. But affection and intimacy, I just never saw that, not for a moment. Did you see that growing up?

• 1:07:37Steven Bartlett?

  It's a really interesting one because I'd say, I'd say yes and no. So I say yes because below the age of maybe eight, maybe I could have got memories of that. And then above the age of ten, um, no. And I call my parents by their first names.

• 1:07:54Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:07:54Steven Bartlett?

  I've really struggled with intimacy because of the exact same reasons.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:07:59Steven Bartlett?

  Even the word best friend made me cringe until the age, it still kind of makes me cringe now.

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  Me too.

• 1:08:05Steven Bartlett?

  Like when people would say it or call me their best friend, this is part of me.

• 1:08:09Speaker 00

  Stephen, me too.

• 1:08:10Steven Bartlett?

  Like it's just a bit, even boyfriend would make me like, ah, prison.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  Me too. That's why when I found the word partner, I was like, okay. That feels, that feels much better.

• 1:08:22Steven Bartlett?

  We stand next to each other. We don't.

• 1:08:25Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness. So when I sort of wanted to really understand where a lot of the sexual shame was stemming from, or just more so even outside of sex, intimacy, intimacy, feeling very disconnected to other people when it came to intimacy, but also from myself. I realized that I could only be expressive as a sexual being if I was drunk or if I was high, if I was in that place where of course my inhibitions are low, but I had no insecurities. I didn't have to feel like I'm doing something wrong. I didn't have to feel like my pleasure was wrong. But then when I got sober, all of those things came to the surface and then I, I had to look that in the eye.

• 1:09:08Speaker 00

  So that also became something that I started sharing over time as well as sort of sharing my journey with sobriety. I then started sharing the things that were revealed as a byproduct of me getting sober. And sexual shame was a huge one, was a big part of that.

• 1:09:24Steven Bartlett?

  My relationship with sex has evolved a lot.

• 1:09:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Steven Bartlett?

  Over, over time. I think it was early, in my early years influenced by porn.

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  Yes, me too.

• 1:09:31Steven Bartlett?

  So that's the way I went into the game. I just went in trying to be those, those male porn stars. And I think over time, and I think there's this, this wider issue in our society, specifically, I've got to be honest with men.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:09:45Steven Bartlett?

  What they think that, what they think sex is in terms of this kind of very aggressive, often dominating, transactional, um, encounter.

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:59Steven Bartlett?

  And then there's, again, I'm just, I'm just talking freely. I don't give a fuck what anyone does.

• 1:10:03Speaker 00

  Please do. Please.

• 1:10:04Steven Bartlett?

  But I'm seeing a lot in, in my, in my close friends, they're all in relate, they're often in relationships, not all of them, where they're having. Problems with their sexual relationship with their partner. They're basically saying things to me and I'd say, this is crazy. I'd say seventy five to eighty percent of my male friends are saying, my partner doesn't want to have sex. She doesn't like having sex.

• 1:10:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:27Steven Bartlett?

  And I was there at one point too. My partner said that to me at one point too.

• 1:10:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:31Steven Bartlett?

  And I took it on face value. I thought they don't like sex. What I came to learn is that wasn't true. But that what what I'd learnt to be sex and what I was bringing as sex, this kind of aggressive, you know, whatever, was not

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:10:48Steven Bartlett?

  the language that they spoke.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:10:50Steven Bartlett?

  And I feel like I'm surrounded by men that need to start seeing sex as a language. Because then you can ask yourself, well, actually, she's speaking Spanish and I'm speaking English.

• 1:10:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:00Steven Bartlett?

  It's not she doesn't like English, she just doesn't, she speaks a different language.

• 1:11:03Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:11:05Steven Bartlett?

  That's a lot. I'm just dumping that on you to see how it resonates.

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  No, that resonates so much and I'm really glad that you said this because I think you're speaking something that is on so many people's minds or something that they've just never really put language to. And a big part of my awakening, if you will, and really addressing that sexual shame is because I also learnt sex from porn at ten years old, ten years old. So by the time that I had sex for the first time when I was fourteen, it was very much like a porn performance, to put it very simply. And I speak to so many people, men and women, about this very specific thing. A lot of us learnt that we should perform, that sex should be driven by orgasm and ejaculation

• 1:11:49Speaker 00

  and this sort of production, if you will, which is not actually accurate for most people when it comes to what really actually feels pleasurable, especially for women. So I started to realise when I got sober that every time that I was having sex, for example, I faked every single orgasm. It was all a perfor- I I didn't know much about my body because I'd learned from porn. And because the men that I was with had also learned from porn, we were just in a performance and no one's actually talking about it, right? So in times when I was in relationships and I made myself think, I don't want to have sex, I don't want to have sex anymore. It actually was not that I didn't want to have this type of pornified sex.

• 1:12:32Speaker 00

  That's what I actually meant. So what you just said is really important and I realized that's when I found tantric sex, actually. Yeah, that's when I found tantric sex around twenty eighteen. Because I realized that I had always felt like sex was being done to me.

• 1:12:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  That I was not a part of it. And that is how most women feel.

• 1:12:53Steven Bartlett?

  I I felt like I needed to apologize on behalf of men. Yeah, because that's what that's what I came to learn.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:59Steven Bartlett?

  Was that the the reason why the the person I was with.

• 1:13:04Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:13:05Steven Bartlett?

  Had turned around to me and said, I don't like having sex is and when we got talking about it.

• 1:13:09Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:10Steven Bartlett?

  After I acted like, I mean, let me be clear, the first time she said that, I did not understand. My little chimpanzee monkey brain went, uh, uh, uh, like I was emasculated by it.

• 1:13:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:13:21Steven Bartlett?

  It made me feel, is there something that I was, I didn't do right?

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  Steps in, right?

• 1:13:25Steven Bartlett?

  Ended up breaking up with this person, got back with this person a year later. When I was maybe a bit more mature, I apologized and I said, I want to have a conversation. And I also said to her that I'm going to be here regardless of whether we have sex or not.

• 1:13:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:13:37Steven Bartlett?

  And then she could, she had a safe enough space to start talking to me about it. And what I discovered is she'd been with, she'd had three previous boyfriends over the course of seven years. She, her view of sex was this person comes and takes from you, treats you like this object.

• 1:13:53Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:53Steven Bartlett?

  And she was with him for five years, treats you like an object, takes what they want from you. And then he was actually going and cheating on her as well.

• 1:13:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:14:00Steven Bartlett?

  So not only was he taking, he was then like hurting her and that cycle just repeated. Her relationship with what sex is was really, really toxic. She didn't like that.

• 1:14:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:14:10Steven Bartlett?

  She didn't want that anymore.

• 1:14:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:14:11Steven Bartlett?

  And that's what she and me probably referred to as this word sex.

• 1:14:15Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:14:16Steven Bartlett?

  So it was kind of like learning a new language of sex and what it actually is that then she went from the place of like, I don't want to have sex anymore. To absolutely loving to have sex.

• 1:14:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:14:26Steven Bartlett?

  I didn't think it was possible. I thought if they don't like sex, dump them.

• 1:14:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:14:30Steven Bartlett?

  You know, I'm gonna go find someone that will.

• 1:14:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:14:32Steven Bartlett?

  That will let me take.

• 1:14:33Speaker 00

  Yes. And you know what? You you've articulated that so beautifully in terms of sex being a language. And it's going to look different for every single person, because something that I realized is that I could tell when I was with a man sexually. I could tell if they were sort of, if it was like a script, almost like a play by play. Like, this is exactly the method. We do this, we do that, switch into this, switch into that. It it wasn't sort of flowing and very intuitive as to what's actually needed in that moment, which reminded me of porn. And I would also realize, actually, and this is something that I've spoken about so much, because I ended up um starting a sexual wellness company called Cherry Revolution over time.

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  And I realized that even some of the positions I would get in were very much like porn, because certain positions in porn are like that, because the camera is there. Not because it's comfortable, because that's the shot for the viewer to be able to see it. So when I started to see that I'm starting to replicate this in my most intimate, private moments, but we're both doing it. I made myself believe that I didn't enjoy sex. So then drinking and drugs and everything that came with it. I felt like those were the moments that I could be fully expressive without needing to perform, which is very interesting, because you would think it would be the opposite, that I would then perform more. But I felt as if I could actually speak my mind.

• 1:16:02Speaker 00

  If I didn't enjoy something, can we try this? Can I do this instead? Or I just want to give, or I just want to receive. Can we be slower? And then when I was sober, I felt like I couldn't say those things, because if I say to you as my partner, I might be emasculating you, I might be embarrassing you, you might think something is wrong. So I would just perform and you're performing as well. And then it just causes a huge disconnect. So tantric sex was the first thing that I came across that made me. Realise and really articulated that sex is actually not a specific destination. Did you know that you can actually enjoy sex without ejaculation? That you can have a full body orgasm, that you can be very slow. That foreplay can be the main thing that you do.

• 1:16:47Speaker 00

  That you can experience orgasm without penetration. Just so many different ways of articulating that experience of sex. And it's just that in experience. And that changed so much for me.

• 1:17:00Steven Bartlett?

  It's such a sort of a narrative violation for so many people who've spent their whole life watching porn. And then recreating it, this idea that you can have an orgasm from touch. That you can use energy to cause someone orgasmic pleasure.

• 1:17:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, that's, it's a really important topic that I think people need to talk about a lot more. And I think just, just saying to someone that's listening to this, that might be in a relationship where they're not, they're in a sexless relationship.

• 1:17:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:17:26Steven Bartlett?

  Just proposing the idea that what if you both just speak, just say there was 10 languages. What if you're just speaking the wrong language?

• 1:17:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:17:34Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean? And what approach would you then take? You'd probably try and learn the language.

• 1:17:38Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:17:40Steven Bartlett?

  And also communicate to them what language you speak and see, and see how you can be bilingual, I guess.

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know what? It reminds me of, are you familiar with love languages and that, that whole thing?

• 1:17:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  I realised that a lot of people

• 1:17:57Speaker 00

  expect someone to give in the way that they like to receive, you know? So no one really says, okay, how do you like to receive love? How do you like to give love? And the moment that I started asking those questions, even though I, believe me, I fucking cringed in the beginning. I'm like, really, am I gonna ask?

• 1:18:17Speaker 00

  But you get used to it.

• 1:18:18Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, and if they run off.

• 1:18:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, Stephen, it's been a game changer to just ask the person that I'm dating. Or my current partner to be like, how do you like to be loved? How do you like to receive love? And how do you like to give it?

• 1:18:32Speaker 00

  Because just those simple questions can change so much. And then you can use the same with sex. What do you like and what do you not like? What have you changed your mind about? What do you like to do now and again? Or maybe not so much sometimes? How much time do you need? How does your arousal actually work? And I know that some people might not know how to answer these questions for themselves. So it's actually very good to start asking yourself those questions before speaking about it with someone else. These are questions that you can just start to ask yourself before introducing them to someone else. But they can, they can change so much. Because I think we get into relationships and make so many assumptions based on our individual experiences and our worldview.

• 1:19:14Speaker 00

  And we expect the person we're with to reflect the exact same thing back to us. But we don't, we don't ask questions.

• 1:19:23Steven Bartlett?

  It's, it's comes back in many respects, what we were talking about earlier, this kind of binary approach to life. They either fit or they don't. There's no space for conversation and nuance and, and, and I guess mutual development together, like towards the same. This idea that you have to actually build and develop a relationship towards a place of satisfaction as opposed to finding your perfect soulmate or perfect fit.

• 1:19:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:19:47Steven Bartlett?

  That I'm gonna find someone that likes to have sex like I do, that likes to talk like I do, that likes the things I do, as opposed to this kind of molding towards being more cohesive together.

• 1:19:57Speaker 00

  I love that term mutual development. And it makes me think actually that this is a term that can apply even outside, maybe even especially outside of romantic relationships. This idea that people don't have to be perfect, that they don't have to exist in the way that I want the world to be or in how I expect them to be. Maybe we can actually mutually develop a different perspective together because we're two different beings coming together.

• 1:20:23Steven Bartlett?

  Cause my, my most successful relationship, my current relationship, we are completely different.

• 1:20:28Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:20:29Steven Bartlett?

  We don't believe the same things. We don't believe the same, we don't have the same fundamental beliefs. But the reason why it works is because of one very simple thing. Communication, very healthy, high respect communication.

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:20:43Steven Bartlett?

  Where everything isn't an attempt to win, it's an attempt to like genuinely understand to move forward.

• 1:20:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:48Steven Bartlett?

  And I think you can have two people that are, that went very, very different things, whether it's in sex or in business or their beliefs about religion and spirituality. Be bound together as long as they have respectful communication.

• 1:20:59Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 1:20:59Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean? And I guess empathy is part of respectful communication.

• 1:21:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Steven Bartlett?

  This is a bit of a left field question, but it just came into my head.

• 1:21:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:05Steven Bartlett?

  Cause I remember a previous guest writing this in the diary after they left, very left field.

• 1:21:12Steven Bartlett?

  What is the pain that you enjoy having?

• 1:21:14Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:21:17Speaker 00

  I won't give my X rated answer. Let me think of.

• 1:21:23Speaker 00

  What is the pain that I enjoy having?

• 1:21:27Speaker 00

  I experience a lot of growing pains now more than ever. Now as my, especially in the past, I would say four years, as the work that I do in the world reaches more people. And as I'm, I'm constantly stretched in a lot of ways, which I really do enjoy. But it challenges my sense of self. I think sometimes it can feel painful to shed aspects of my identity. And I actually enjoy that. I enjoy that because it is part of my growth process. Um, and this is not a PR answer or anything like, it's the absolute truth. I experienced, there's the discomfort that I experienced, but sometimes it's painful.

• 1:22:09Speaker 00

  Because it means that I have to make decisions that scare me. It means that I have to allow myself to be fully seen and really step into that idea of being visible.

• 1:22:22Speaker 00

  And with a, with visibility comes a lot of vulnerability as well. So I think that is a pain that I enjoy and will gladly accept. And then the X rated thing that I will not say, that's, that's a pain that I.

• 1:22:35Steven Bartlett?

  I'm not gonna.

• 1:22:36Speaker 00

  No, no, no, this one I'll keep to myself. Thank you.

• 1:22:38Steven Bartlett?

  We still want to monetize this episode, so.

• 1:22:43Speaker 00

  Can I turn the question back on to you?

• 1:22:45Steven Bartlett?

  Of course you can.

• 1:22:47Speaker 00

  What is a pain that you enjoy?

• 1:22:48Steven Bartlett?

  The gym. No, I'm joking.

• 1:22:51Steven Bartlett?

  No, the first answer that came to mind, quite honestly, was heartbreak. And I tell you why, because heartbreak feels like the most intense pain that I think I've ever experienced. The most all-consuming, like, black hole that I've ever been in is just like having my heart broken. But at the same time, that pain for me is evidence of so much. It's evidence of my ability to feel so deeply. And so I almost feel sorry for people that never get to have a heartbreak because you never get to feel the full, what I think to be the full spectrum of your heart. So it's not something that I would ever wish for, but it's something that is real indicated that I had a chance to feel so strongly. Bit of a weird answer, but.

• 1:23:32Speaker 00

  No, no, no, not at all. Not at all.

• 1:23:35Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you. What ideas or beliefs do you hold to be true that pretty much everyone else disagrees with? Things that you are sure are true.

• 1:23:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:48Steven Bartlett?

  But most people.

• 1:23:49Speaker 00

  I'll tell you one of the biggest ones that most people didn't like a couple of years ago. When I said

• 1:23:58Speaker 00

  that as a black person, I'm not oppressed. And I mean, you could say that anywhere else in the world and it'll be like, yeah, of course, we understand. But people,

• 1:24:09Speaker 00

  maybe a small minority, but a very loud minority, especially at that time where everything was so overly politicized, really didn't like me saying that as a black person here in the Western world, having have come from Zimbabwe, a country that is, the population is genuinely, truly oppressed. And I know what that looks like. I'm not oppressed. I'm not oppressed because of my race. I don't see my race as a burden. Yes, there are things that I've experienced, a lot of adversity that I've experienced. I know the reality of what it means to live under the systems that a lot of us do in and out of the Western world. I acknowledge all of that. And at the same time, I'm not oppressed.

• 1:24:53Speaker 00

  As a woman, I'm not oppressed. Yes, there are oppressive systems and things that absolutely have to be questioned and looked at. And there are many things that I advocate for where people are truly oppressed. FGM is an example. I'm a huge. Advocate for working with survivors of F G M, female genital mutilation. So I work with a lot of grassroots activists. I do a lot of work around that. So I understand what oppression looks like, sex-based oppression, but for me as a woman, I, as an individual, am not oppressed. Um, and I think a lot of people didn't like me saying that for, for some reason.

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  Because I think some people saw it as me undermining black people or undermining women. Which is very odd, you know, to, to even think about. So I think that's something that is, to me, completely non-controversial. That was seen as a controversial statement to make, maybe because of the climate at the time. But that's one of the things that I can think of.

• 1:25:56Steven Bartlett?

  That's a decision you're making. It's a decision you're making not to feel, not to pick up that label and stick it on your chest and go.

• 1:26:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:26:02Steven Bartlett?

  I'm an oppressed person.

• 1:26:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:05Steven Bartlett?

  Why are you making that decision?

• 1:26:07Speaker 00

  I think, not I think, I, I know why. I wasn't raised to see myself as a victim. I, I just wasn't culturally or in my family home or with everything that my family and I, or I as an individual have been through. I have never for one second, apart from the moments where I needed to misplace my own anger and outrage and blame onto other people around me. I never saw myself as a victim to the world. So I think for me, it's not even a conscious decision that I have to be like, okay, um. It, it just is. I, I don't see myself in that way. I don't walk through the world thinking that my skin color is a burden.

• 1:26:48Speaker 00

  I know that there are things that I might experience because of it. I'm very aware of that. I don't ignore that. But I don't see that as the only truth or the only side of the coin. So it's always been quite easy for me to say that. And a few years ago, I did, I never would have had to declare anything like that at all. But I think something happened, especially in the past two years, where to even sort of see yourself as a powerful individual. Means that you're taking away from other people.

• 1:27:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:19Speaker 00

  Which is not true at all. I've, I've just never seen myself as a victim, ever, ever. And I won't, I won't do it.

• 1:27:27Steven Bartlett?

  Why not?

• 1:27:29Speaker 00

  There's a real cost to that, just like we were talking about before. There's a mental, emotional, spiritual cost to that and I I just won't fucking do it. And I think it's a lie. It's a lie to make myself believe that I'm a victim and that I'm oppressed and I I, you know, I'm a powerless individual. I'm not, I'm not. Are you?

• 1:27:49Steven Bartlett?

  No, I'm not.

• 1:27:50Speaker 00

  I can tell.

• 1:27:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, that's why, you know, I get asked this question a lot when I do talks is about, you know, discrimination. Steve, obviously, you know, being a guy, a man that was born in Africa, I've got a black mother. I'm I'm, I guess, I don't know what the politically correct term is, so I'll say the more mixed race, brown. Well, I don't know what the correct term is. So just forgive me, half caste. I don't know, I'm brown, okay? I think it's brown.

• 1:28:13Speaker 00

  I think you are.

• 1:28:15Steven Bartlett?

  Did you not experience discrimination in business? I get this question a lot and to me, it's it's a fascinating question because my brain goes, I don't care. Yeah. Because I can't control it anyway.

• 1:28:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Steven Bartlett?

  Even if it were, I'm sure it's true. I'm sure there's multiple moments in the rise of my career when I went into boardrooms and everyone there was four times my age and and white. I'm sure there was prejudices before I even opened my mouth.

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:38Steven Bartlett?

  That acted for and probably against me. The thing is, I can do nothing about them in terms of in that moment and in my my day to day life. I can't, I can't cure your prejudice or discrimination and I don't think it's my responsibility to.

• 1:28:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:28:51Steven Bartlett?

  I see my responsibility as like doing the best that I can with where I am and with what I have. And I then heard about this thing called labeling theory where in psychology, if you're given a label, it then has a big impact on your future performance.

• 1:29:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:29:05Steven Bartlett?

  If I call myself, if I label myself as oppressed or at a disadvantage.

• 1:29:10Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:29:11Steven Bartlett?

  I will start acting like I'm a disadvantaged person. I'll show up with less confidence, with more pessimism. And and all of those things are probably going to be more harmful than the discrimination itself.

• 1:29:22Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:29:22Steven Bartlett?

  So it was, it was. It was a decision that like to focus on what I can control on a on a macro level. Of course, you fight every opportunity you have for equality and to end systemic discrimination and to educate people better from a very early age and to change the way that media looks and to have more black podcasters, as we've done a big campaign around and all of those things. But on a day to day, do I want to burden myself, as you say, with a label which I don't think will help, will serve me.

• 1:29:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:29:50Steven Bartlett?

  Will help me show up better. The answer is unfortunately is no. And that is my personal decision and others can do with their life what they wish to.

• 1:29:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:57Steven Bartlett?

  But I don't think it will serve me. And you can, again, this goes back to holding two truths. You can, you can choose not to be oppressed, but then also fight for those that are oppressed.

• 1:30:07Speaker 00

  One hundred percent.

• 1:30:07Steven Bartlett?

  Or fight for equality at the same time.

• 1:30:09Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:30:10Steven Bartlett?

  It's not to diminish the authenticity of the issue.

• 1:30:14Speaker 00

  No, and I also, another reason why I'm very fierce about this is because I think as we have those conversations around representation, et cetera, I think we do need to see more people, whether it's black, brown, what have you, people that are in the minority, depending on where they are. I think we need to see them positioned as powerful sovereign beings. So the reason I'm very serious about the conversations I have and saying, no, I'm not oppressed. I do know what oppression looks like. And I will continue to champion for, as you say, equality, et cetera. But I, it, it's actually my responsibility to claim my power as an individual who inhabits a black body. It's actually my responsibility.

• 1:30:59Speaker 00

  This has to be a part of the representation conversation. We can't always just want black people to step forward to talk about the struggle. Because just like you say, I started to notice actually that every panel that I would get invited to do all the interviews, it would start with something along the lines of, so Africa, as a black woman. So Africa, as a woman of colour, what have you experienced? Nothing. What if I haven't experienced any kind of, what if I don't have some kind of story? Because I started to find that it would put me into a position where I would kind of feel like I have to find a story where something, but what if nothing happened?

• 1:31:39Speaker 00

  You know, why can't I just be seen as a writer, as a consultant, as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, without being a black entrepreneur or a black speaker or all of which I really value. And I see the importance in recognizing those things in those specific terms. But why does it have to be positioned in such a way where I have to look for adversity connected to my race? So I've really started to be very firm around that and to reject that. And in interviews to say, I'm really curious to know why you opened the question like that. You know, and sometimes people don't even realize they're doing it because it's just become a script, you know?

• 1:32:19Steven Bartlett?

  That would be a terrifying rebuttal. If I'd asked you that and I was, and I was not in a minority, I would be fucking terrified.

• 1:32:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:32:30Steven Bartlett?

  I'd be terrified because you're right, there's, there's almost this assumption that you're going to be the voice of oppression on this panel. So we're going to come to the oppressed now and we're going to ask you about oppression.

• 1:32:40Speaker 00

  Right. So I think there's a bit of cognitive dissonance where then someone like me says, actually, no, I'm not oppressed. People don't kind of know what to do with you then.

• 1:32:48Steven Bartlett?

  It is really violates violates a bunch of narratives.

• 1:32:52Speaker 00

  Right. And that's a good thing.

• 1:32:54Steven Bartlett?

  But imagine, imagine the opposite, imagine them going, no, you are.

• 1:33:00Steven Bartlett?

  No, Africa, you are. And don't forget that and be oppressed.

• 1:33:03Speaker 00

  Stephen, that happens. That happens in some messages that you get. How, how can I deny, how can you deny that you're oppressed? I've had people tell me. So that's very interesting because it tends to be white people a lot of the time that do that.

• 1:33:20Speaker 00

  Because they, they're kind of, and in a way I sort of can understand where they're coming from in that they really want to stand up for something. They really believe this idea that every single person that fits into this identity market thinks and behaves and has had this experience. So they don't then realize that they've become quite regressive in their quest to be progressive, which is very, it's very interesting.

• 1:33:48Steven Bartlett?

  I had the most interesting conversation about racism on Twitter many years ago, where I think the, I think the trending topic of the day was like, you can't speak, you can't tell a black person what racism is, or something like that. And so, and I'm saying, well, no, like racism can go both ways. I, I can be racist to a white person.

• 1:34:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:34:11Steven Bartlett?

  I, I can be, I can not give someone a job because they're white. I can discriminate against them purely based on their skin colour. I can be. And this woman, this, this lady online was arguing with me, basically saying, no, white people can't tell a black person what racism is. She was saying that to me and I literally go, you're telling me what racism is right now.

• 1:34:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:30Steven Bartlett?

  And that is totally okay.

• 1:34:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:34:31Steven Bartlett?

  And she apologised. She went, you're completely right. I should never have spoken to you. She literally went, I, I should never have told you what racism is. She got herself caught in her own.

• 1:34:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:34:39Steven Bartlett?

  Because she abandoned truth and she just started falling in line with this like

• 1:34:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:34:43Steven Bartlett?

  binary nonsense narrative that white people can't talk about races.

• 1:34:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:34:47Steven Bartlett?

  What are you fucking talking about?

• 1:34:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:34:49Steven Bartlett?

  To be honest as well, like I'm half white.

• 1:34:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:34:52Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what I mean? So I've got this luxury, I can shape shift. So does that mean, because I'm half white, I can only half talk about racism?

• 1:34:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:35:00Steven Bartlett?

  Because it's also racist just to say that I'm black. That's just picking one half of my identity, right? So.

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  See how this entire thing falls apart, the more that you sort of.

• 1:35:08Steven Bartlett?

  You interrogate it.

• 1:35:09Speaker 00

  Interrogate it.

• 1:35:10Steven Bartlett?

  In any way, you blow on it and it just fucking crumbles. Because it's just bullshit. It's propped up bullshit by people that are virtue signalling.

• 1:35:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:35:17Steven Bartlett?

  That just don't know what they think or believe. So they've just gone with the cult. It's like.

• 1:35:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's the script, it's the script. That's why I think questioning. And it can seem so simple, but questioning can really allow you to sort of snap out of this trance. Because a lot of it is, it's a trance, it's a script that people repeat and you regurgitate.

• 1:35:37Steven Bartlett?

  And you accept it with that interrogation.

• 1:35:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:35:39Steven Bartlett?

  It's like you wake up in the morning, you go to your like, your side. And then they give you the, the beliefs, the 174 beliefs that you have to believe. And you go, okay, cool, got it. And you, you don't even look at it, you just insert it in your little, it's like a SIM card. They just put it in your brain and you never understand why you believe these things. Because they're not your beliefs.

• 1:35:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:58Steven Bartlett?

  Someone said to me one day, they said, if you, if you believe. The same things as everybody around you, they're not your beliefs. And it was a really interesting thing because it's true.

• 1:36:07Speaker 00

  That's powerful.

• 1:36:08Steven Bartlett?

  But if you believe every, if you believe pretty much everything that everyone around you believes, they are not your beliefs. They're the beliefs of the society you lived in. And if I moved you to Germany at a certain time, you might well have had a different set of beliefs.

• 1:36:21Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:36:21Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:36:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:36:23Steven Bartlett?

  Or if I'd moved you back to the, you know, my history is good, to the 16th century when slavery was rife.

• 1:36:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:36:28Steven Bartlett?

  And you, you had a slave, you might have believed a completely different set of things were okay and normal. So beliefs, there's, there's very little correctness to, to many of them. If happiness is this recipe, that contains all of these essential ingredients in order for you to make the, the dish of happiness, what is your recipe?

• 1:36:51Steven Bartlett?

  Which ingredients are you currently lacking for that recipe?

• 1:36:57Speaker 00

  That's a fantastic question. Which ingredients am I lacking for the recipe of happiness?

• 1:37:06Steven Bartlett?

  You said that much clearer than I did. I should just use that.

• 1:37:12Steven Bartlett?

  I should just, we'll retake that when she's gone.

• 1:37:17Speaker 00

  That's a good question. Um, vulnerability.

• 1:37:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:24Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:37:25Speaker 00

  Really.

• 1:37:25Steven Bartlett?

  I think that would surprise a lot of people.

• 1:37:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's tied to what I mentioned around romantic relationships. Yeah. Allowing myself to be more vulnerable.

• 1:37:40Speaker 00

  I think that could

• 1:37:44Speaker 00

  allow me to have access to layers of happiness that I haven't yet experienced.

• 1:37:53Speaker 00

  That's what comes to mind, but it's a, it's a, it feels like a very big question.

• 1:38:00Speaker 00

  Because I think it makes you, well, it makes me have to think about, even just with the word lack, it makes me have to sort of turn that mirror onto myself.

• 1:38:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I think honestly, I'm able to be vulnerable in so many other areas. But if I think about the happiness that I could experience in terms of romance vulnerability.

• 1:38:25Steven Bartlett?

  It's funny, when you were thinking, when you were answering that question, I was thinking about the analogy of ingredients. And one of the things that makes a recipe go bad, isn't a lack of ingredients, it's the wrong quantities.

• 1:38:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:38:37Steven Bartlett?

  Which is probably what people call balance. So if I have, if I put a fourth egg in when it says three eggs, the recipe goes bad. So as I think about that in terms of balance, you think about the scales of ingredients that you're weighing up. You've got to get the right quantities of each ingredient in order to make a great recipe. Sometimes I think in my case, I maybe have too much of, I have too many eggs.

• 1:38:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:58Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean? Too many eggs in the basket. I have too much professional commitments and I've, I've, I don't have enough sugar. Which is maybe romance and that kind of connection.

• 1:39:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:39:08Steven Bartlett?

  So maybe one can have all the ingredients there, but just have the complete wrong quantities. So that's going to ruin the, the recipe.

• 1:39:15Speaker 00

  That's a good one.

• 1:39:16Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes a question for the next guest.

• 1:39:22Steven Bartlett?

  What is the crazy, big idea you would try if you knew you could not fail?

• 1:39:34Speaker 00

  I want to start a festival or a huge annual event that is a place for all of us to express our unthinkable thoughts.

• 1:39:45Speaker 00

  And it's going to be a place for people to come and see what honest, raw, unfiltered, respectful, compassionate communication looks like in real time. And.

• 1:40:01Speaker 00

  I want this to become something that is global. I want it to become

• 1:40:06Speaker 00

  something that has a life of its own outside of me. And I've wanted to do this for a very, very long time. Um, and I know that I'd be able to do it very well.

• 1:40:22Speaker 00

  But I think it's, it feels scary because I know that I could do it very well.

• 1:40:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I've never shared that out loud.

• 1:40:33Steven Bartlett?

  I'm not sure if I understand that last part. It feels scary because I know I can do it.

• 1:40:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:38Steven Bartlett?

  That doesn't make a lot of sense.

• 1:40:40Speaker 00

  To me, it does.

• 1:40:41Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:40:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'll tell you what I mean by that. It's almost like that feeling that I was telling you of when I would get emails and offers to speak for half an hour, which comes so easily to me and get paid so much money. So I would resist it because I know that I can do it and I know that I'm going to get rewarded so much from it, which means that there's a leap in identity that has to happen, which feels quite scary. So it's almost the same with this event and this idea that I have. And it's, it seems, as you say, like it doesn't make sense. It's scary because you know that it's going to succeed. It's scary because you know that it's going to work. Um, and something that I've had to work on over time is the fear of success.

• 1:41:25Steven Bartlett?

  Fucking hell.

• 1:41:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. So this event and this thing that I want to do is sort of linked to that. It's a barrier that I have to

• 1:41:36Speaker 00

  break and will. Um, so yeah, what a great question.

• 1:41:41Steven Bartlett?

  Africa, thank you. Um, I wanted to speak to you because I saw so much, so much nuance and truth and importance in the way that you communicate, but also what you communicate. And so it's very rare these days that I will DM someone out of the blue and say, you should come on my podcast.

• 1:41:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:59Steven Bartlett?

  And that is just a, for me, that is a, um, a sign of how much I respect what you're doing and how important I think it is to have conversations that are. You know, that are unthinkable thoughts and that are fearless and that are challenging, whether they are right or whether they are wrong. I'm a big believer in just being able to have the conversation because I think that is the starting point of progress. Where you can, where two ideas can clash and then they can merge and find the truth and move forward as maybe one shared idea. And there's not enough of that. There's not enough people like you that are doing that. So you, I have a suspicion, I have a very big suspicion that you are going to be a very important voice on a global level and that you are going to be a star.

• 1:42:43Steven Bartlett?

  I really believe that because you're very rare and it's an important rare. It's a very important rare and it's a, it's a, hopefully it's a flourishing type of rare, but it's, it feels like it's become a bit of a dying breed of rare and people that are willing to have conversations, regardless of how they might be perceived by those that receive those, those conversations. So thank you for being that voice in society. And I think this is just the start of our friendship. If I, I know that might make you cringe because.

• 1:43:13Steven Bartlett?

  Friendship.

• 1:43:14Speaker 00

  Please, more of that.

• 1:43:15Steven Bartlett?

  We are best friends.

• 1:43:18Speaker 00

  Let's say, okay, we'll revisit that. Stephen, thank you. Um, you know what? I was saying to my friend Emily that I was really just looking forward to this conversation because especially in the time where everything is so heavily politicized and people are sort of lead with identity and what it means to be a certain person. I think I was just really looking forward to having this conversation with you because of the work that you do beyond the work in itself, your curiosity and your willingness to sort of learn and to be open and to change your mind and to be corrected and to also be assertive, but to also be soft and to just allow for ideas to exist openly without disagreeing or agreeing,

• 1:44:01Speaker 00

  just hearing. I think it's, yeah, I think it is, you know, something that is quite rare, but I think through conversations like this, it actually causes a beautiful ripple effect. So I, I do think this is the start of a friendship. So thank you. Thank you.