Small Steps to Happiness: The Science of Mindful Living with Laurie Santos | From The One You Feed

Today we're sharing author Eric Zimmer’s interview with Dr. Laurie on The One You Feed https://www.oneyoufeed.net/ podcast. In this episode, Dr. Laurie Santos discusses the importance of taking small steps to happiness and the science of mindful living. She reminds us that happiness is not a destination, but a practice. By understanding the science behind well-being and implementing small, consistent changes, we can learn how to apply these insights to our own lives to find greater joy and fulfillment. Key Takeaways: Embrace the power of small, consistent actions in shaping our happiness Understand how our environment and social connections influence our behavior Learn the common misconceptions about what truly makes us happy Discover strategies for overcoming loneliness and building meaningful connections If you like what you hear, find The One You Feed wherever you get podcasts. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. When the internet arrived, most people used it to look things up. Others saw what it could really do. The same is true with ChatGPT. ChatGPT work goes beyond answering questions. Give it a goal, plus things like notes, files, feedback, data, or project plans, and it can help create a brief analysis, deck outline, tracker, or workflow. You stay in control, reviewing the work and choosing the final result. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro Plans.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over the limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over

• 1:28Speaker 02

  time without any extra effort. When you better understand your spending habits, it's easier to make your money work harder for you. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.74% to 27.99% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of October 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or card.apple.com. Savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility. Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, Member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 2:12Laurie Santos?

  You know, so many people are talking about how to support your gut health these days, but honestly, it can feel a little overwhelming. That's why I love when I find something easy, like Kashi Gut Health Granola. It's just so refreshingly straightforward. It's loaded with fiber, prebiotics, and gut-activated cultures. And it's absolutely delicious. No joke. We're talking blueberry almond delicious. With Kashi Gut Health Granola, you have a yummy breakfast and you fuel your gut. Doesn't get any easier than that. Say hi to new Kashi Gut Health Granola. This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by the amazing Katie Milkman, behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change.

• 2:57Laurie Santos?

  Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Each episode shares the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self-control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings, and why starting over can feel so hard. Katie talks to authors, athletes, Nobel laureates, and everyday people about why we make irrational choices and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes. You'll learn about tools and strategies to help improve your decision-making and a ton of other fantastic things about the mind. Listen and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast or find it wherever you listen to your shows.

• 3:45Laurie Santos?

  Pushkin.

• 3:49Laurie Santos?

  Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Dr. Laurie Santos here with a little something extra for you this week. On Monday's episode, I spoke with podcaster and author Eric Zimmer about his new book, How a Little Becomes a Lot, and how, in spite of our instincts, it's often better for our long-term health and happiness to set smaller goals rather than big ones. But Eric and I actually go back a little further than that episode. A while back, I joined him on his podcast, The One You Feed. We covered some of the same themes we explored in Monday's show, but in that conversation, we went even further. Plus, he was interviewing me. I wanted to share that discussion with you today. I hope you enjoy it, and we'll be back next week with a brand-new episode of the show.

• 4:38Speaker 04

  Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like "garbage in, garbage out," or "you are what you think" ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

• 5:34Speaker 04

  Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dr. Laurie Santos, a professor of psychology and head of Silliman College at Yale University. She's also the host of the podcast, The Happiness Lab. Dr. Santos is an expert on human cognition and the cognitive biases that impede better choices. Her course, Psychology and the Good Life, teaches students what the science of psychology says about how to make wiser choices and live a life that's happier and more fulfilling. And that class is Yale's most popular course in over 300 years. She's been featured in numerous news outlets, including New York Times, NBC Nightly News, The Today Show, and many, many more, and is also a winner of numerous awards for both

• 6:16Speaker 04

  science and teaching from institutions such as Yale and the American Psychological Association. Laurie's been featured as one of Popular Science's Brilliant 10 Young Minds and was named Times Leading Campus Celebrity. Hi, Laurie. Welcome to the show.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Thanks so much for having me on.

• 6:32Speaker 04

  I'm so excited to have you on. You are the creator of a really great podcast called The Happiness Lab, as well as work you do on happiness at Yale and all sorts of things. And we'll get into all that in a minute, but let's start like we always do with a parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild, and they say in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparent and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I've heard the parable before, the one you feed. You know, for me, it really shows that happiness and focusing on our mental health takes work, and it takes choices, right? And it reminds us not just that happiness takes work, but that there's these interesting opportunity costs, right? That if you're putting your time and your energy, especially your emotional energy, into certain kinds of things, you could be doing that at an opportunity cost of the kinds of processes you want to win out, right? And so the wolf metaphor has always been really powerful to me. It's not enough that you focus on the things that matter. You also have to make sure that you're not also focusing on the things that don't matter.

• 7:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, and there's a lot in your work that I think we'll get to as we go through that really hits on that parable. So much of your work, I think, orients around an idea of what we think will make us happy is actually not usually the things that will make us happy. If we think something is going to make us happy, that's where we're going to direct all our energy. And to your point, if all your energy's going there, you don't have enough left to put over on the things that do create happiness. If we had infinite energy, this wouldn't be a problem, right? But it is. And so, yeah, that opportunity cost is really important. I want to start by going a slightly different direction, because I did not know this about you until I started doing deeper research.

• 8:34Speaker 04

  But you are the director of the Yale's Canine Cognition Lab, which, that is so cool. That is so cool. I'm a huge dog lover.

• 8:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, the work is relevant in a couple of different ways, feeding wolves.

• 8:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  We haven't worked with wolves directly, but we have worked with Australian dingoes. This was my kind of, you know, day job before I got interested in the science of happiness. I was really interested in this question of what makes humans unique, what makes humans special. And studying canids is really an important way to answer that question, in part because dogs, and domesticated dogs in particular, grew up alongside humans, right? You know, so this path from becoming a wolf to becoming a canid that could be around people is one that really shaped these animals to pay attention to us in a particular way and maybe even shape their cognitive abilities. So canids are a really fantastic comparison point for all the cool and interesting things that humans do, if you're interested in questions of uniqueness. But I sadly don't get to spend as much of my time doing the canine work these days, so.

• 9:31Speaker 04

  No, it's just as I was looking at some of your publications, after like the second one that had dogs or, you know, canines in the title, I was like, there's something I'm not understanding about her work here. And so then, as I dug a little deeper, I was like, okay. So to that end, you know, if we wanted to translate that work into the happiness work, is there anything about the work that you do or about dog cognition or animal cognition that would point us in the direction of happiness? Or any lessons we can sort of, even if we're sort of stretching the analogy a little bit, anything from there that you find interesting?

• 10:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think there, you know, a couple of things. One is animals are incredibly good at prioritizing some of the stuff that makes them happy, right? I mean, to take, you know, for example, presence, right? You know, mindfulness, just being in the present moment. You know, I think dogs are a wonderful example of this. I mean, I think one of the benefits we get from hanging out with dogs, and in fact, there's scientific work to suggest this, is that You become more mindful when you're around your dog. You're taking your dog for a walk and he's sniffing the ground and looking at the flowers and paying attention to the sounds. It sort of causes you to do the same thing. It gets you back into your normal sensory experience. And so I think animals can be a great guide for helping us do that. I also think that dogs are a really wonderful way to get social connection, especially if

• 10:49Speaker 00

  you're having a hard time getting some social connection with humans. You can sort of form that meaningful bond with an animal in a way that gives us so many of the exact same psychological benefits. So the work I was doing with dogs wasn't necessarily on happiness, but they've definitely given me a glimmer into some strategies that work.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, dogs are one of my great sources of happiness in life, for sure. It's funny, anytime if you were to look at my camera roll or you were to look at my gratitude lists, they're always, you know, they're near the very, very top. All right, so let's talk a little bit about an idea that you use a lot, which I think is really important, and we talk about it on this program, we talk about it in the Spiritual Habits program. You say, "A good rule of thumb for all this stuff is little and often."

• 11:34Speaker 00

  And I think what I mean by that is, you know, we can really find ways to protect our mental health and boost our well-being through the little things that we do if we kind of keep up the habit of doing them often, you know? So I think when we think about the things that are really bringing us down, it's not usually the one-off thing that we happen to do with our time. It's the things that we're doing persistently, over and over again, that, again, can kind of create this opportunity cost on our happiness. But if you can put in positive habits, even if they're tiny, even if they're baby steps, and you can get yourself to do them more and more, those are the things that are really going to impact your well-being, oftentimes more than you expect. You think, "Oh, it's this little thing, you know, do a five-minute meditation," you know,

• 12:17Speaker 00

  "it's this tiny thing to like make sure I'm texting a friend and checking in." You know, these things matter more than we think.

• 12:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's a Tanzanian proverb that I use in the Spiritual Habits course, which is, "Little by little, a little becomes a lot." And I just love that idea. And I love how you just pointed to, "This works for both the good and the bad," right? You know, if social media doesn't make you feel good, I'm not castigating it across the board, but if you're one of those people in which social media turns into a comparison exercise and leaves you feeling bad about yourself, you know, little by little, that becomes a lot, versus, just like you're saying, text to friends, little by little, you're nurturing and growing connection. And so I just think that's such an important idea, and we tend to discount it because we think we have to make really big changes.

• 13:04Speaker 04

  And sometimes a big change can be great and can be helpful, and depending on what it is, but for most of us, it's the little changes, you know? How do we work a little more of this into our day?

• 13:15Speaker 00

  And I think, you know, focusing on the little can allow us to do something that also can improve our well-being, right? Which is to make sure we're harnessing self-compassion. You know, I think sometimes when we want to make this huge change, like, "Yeah, I'm going to be perfectly happy and I'm never going to mess up again," we're often trying to make that big change with a certain sort of attitude, and it's an attitude of perfectionism, like, "If I screw up, you know, the world is over." And so I think focusing on the little changes means you're giving yourself something you can bite off, something that's actually doable, you're not setting yourself up for failure, you're kind of doing it in a compassionate way. And so I think that's another way that focusing on the little can help us. We're doing it with this mindset of compassion and doability, as opposed to, "I must be this perfect robot that gets everything right the first time."

• 13:58Speaker 04

  Absolutely. And I think there's so much to be said for positive momentum, right? So when we start doing little things and we're successful, we feel better about ourselves, we feel more confident, we feel like we have more self-efficacy, versus when we try and do big things and we fail, you know, you do that long enough, that eats away at your sense of your ability to change. You know, I did a lot of behavior coaching for a while, and that was such a big thing, was people would say, "I'm the kind of person who doesn't finish things." And I'd say, "Well, you haven't finished things in the past, but I don't know that that's a personality trait," right? But we've got to adjust the way we go after these things.

• 14:37Speaker 00

  That's exactly right. And I think we forget that the stories we tell ourselves matter a lot, right? You know, "I'm a person who doesn't finish things," you know, that's a story that you can update, right? That's a story that has some content that may or may not be true, that you could challenge, you know, riddled with these cognitive fallacies. And so I think focusing on the small can also help us make sure that those stories are accurate, right? We're not trying to come up with a magnum opus story that's going to, you know, make sense of everything we've done. We're just talking about, you know, "Did I get up and like do my five-minute gratitude meditation this morning?" Right? You know, these tiny things allow us to achieve it, but they allow us to come up with better stories that we can tell ourselves, that are stories that are positive ones about growth and so on.

• 15:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, Dr. Rick Hansen said something once. He said, "Our stories about ourselves are at least six months out of date." And I think actually that number's way underestimated. I think, I think our stories about ourselves can be years out of date, you know? And so I like that idea of just adjusting a little bit. You mentioned gratitude there, and I thought maybe we could turn towards gratitude for a second, because it's one of the skills that you talk about in your happiness course as being a really helpful happiness tool. There's lots of studies about how good gratitude is for us in so many different ways. You know, it's pro-social, it tends to make us often be able to regulate ourselves better, sometimes get more done. I mean, there's a, there's a ton of reasons why gratitude is so valuable. So my question to you would be twofold.

• 16:03Speaker 04

  The first would be, what do you think are some of the most useful strategies for making gratitude part of our life? And then the second question is a little bit more complex, but you talk about hedonic adaptation, which is, we get used to things, right? You know, "I get a new car, and then I get used to having the car, it's no longer special anymore." Well, I'm curious whether we can have hedonic adaptation in our gratitude work, because this is what I feel like happens to me, is I do it, and it's really valuable, until I've done it for a while, and now I'm back to the same sort of things, and now all of a sudden, it's kind of used to the gratitude work. So question one would be, what are some practices you like?

• 16:46Speaker 04

  And then question two, what would be some ways of keeping it fresh?

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, in terms of practices that I think work, I mean, part of it is, you know, you've got to find what works for you, right? There are practices that might be fantastic for me, that you might find cheesy, or you might find onerous. You know, as someone who's an expert on behavior change, as you know, the practice that's going to work is the one that we can get ourselves to do, right?

• 17:07Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Some that I really like are, you know, just the simple act of writing down a few things that you're grateful for. You know, I have a little app that I use to do this. I don't think you need an app, it can, if you're a pen and paper person, use pen and paper, but just commit to, you know, three to five things you're grateful for every day. And the key, which maybe is going to get to your hedonic adaptation question a little bit, is that ideally, those should be different. You know, it doesn't really work if every day you're like, "Dog, spouse, coffee, dog, spouse, coffee, dog, spouse, coffee." Like, you gotta first have to mix it up a bit.

• 17:38Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  And you second have to make sure you're feeling it. It can't be rote. I mean, the whole point of gratitude is that it's an emotion, and you have to kind of turn it on. But another practice I really love, which for me felt a little bit easier, because it meant I was noticing things I was grateful for throughout the day, was a practice that I learned from the author, Ross Gay, who has this book called The Book of Delights. And his practice is just, he tries to notice things that he finds delightful out there in a world. So it's not like, you know, capital G gratitude of this blessing that came to your life, it's just like, you notice fun things out there. Like, you know, this morning, as I was walking to get coffee, there was a guy who was like parking near me, and he was like blasting old-school like Ozzy Osbourne out the window

• 18:22Speaker 00

  of his car, and he had this big dog that was hanging out. And you know, so I looked over, and for a second, I thought the dog was like jamming along to Ozzy Osbourne, right? And that was like delight. You know, Ross Gay would put his finger in there and just said, "That is a delight," right? And the reason I like the delight practice is first, it's easier than gratitude, right? You don't have to kind of remember this list and write it down. But the second is that it's, it's doing what you want to be doing in the gratitude practice, which is sort of training your attention to the blessings, to the things that are good in life. You're fighting this bias that we know is one that is built in, which is a negativity bias. Our brains are set to notice the big tigers out there in the world, the anxiety-provoking, scary, sad things. It takes some work to train our brains to shift focus and notice the delightful things.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  So if a gratitude practice seems onerous, or like it's going to be too work, commit to noticing the delights. And I like finding a delight buddy, where you can like text the buddy, like, "Saw a dog hanging out, car playing Ozzy Osbourne, delight," you know, all caps.

• 19:19Speaker 04

  That's a great idea.

• 19:20Speaker 00

  To get to your hedonic adaptation question, you know, I think this is a tough one, because there are studies that suggest that we don't hedonically adapt to certain kinds of emotions as easily, and gratitude is one of these, that if you're focused on the right stuff, you can continue that feeling long after you expect. You don't see the same hedonic adaptation curve for gratitude, but you have to keep feeling it to get there. And I think the problem with a lot of gratitude practices is, we turn them into something that we do rote. It's like brushing our teeth, again, you know, it's like, you know, spouse, dog, coffee, like every single day, right? And you just stop feeling it. And so one way to do that is you, you know, make a rule with yourself that it has to be something new.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  You know, it can be my spouse's feet, or his smile, or, you know, my dog's tail, or like my dog, the way she drinks the water. You have to commit to finding something novel every single time. And that means you're still in the noticing, right? You're still like allowing the gratitude to do what it needs to do, which is like, you gotta feel it, you gotta think, like, "That is amazing that this universe, of all the people this dog could be with, of all the dogs I could have, I have this dog." You have to take a moment to feel that. But if, if you get there, if you allow yourself to feel it, there is evidence suggesting that you won't adapt to it as much. It still kind of can have its effect, maybe even more so than other emotions, which is, you know, one of the many, many cool things about gratitude. If you're doing it right, you don't hedonically adapt as much.

• 20:44Speaker 04

  You said a bunch of things there I'd like to just kind of hit on real quick. I think first is, I love that idea of delight. The word I often use is appreciation. Like, what do I appreciate today? Like, to your point, it's smaller than something I'm grateful for. It's just a little flash of a moment, that there was something, something that was there. And then the other question I have is about feeling it, because this is an interesting one, right? I've talked on this show a lot about my struggles with depression. Depression, when it comes on me, what it is primarily is lack of feeling. Right? Something that you might normally feel just doesn't do it, right? The song that normally is like, oh, I gotta love that song is just like, yeah, it's fine.

• 21:28Speaker 04

  And so if gratitude is something we need to feel, and yet feelings are difficult to come by, and yet we know that gratitude is something that may help with depression. Any thoughts on working around that?

• 21:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think your experience is of course really common. I mean, one of the classic symptoms of depression is anhedonia, which is literally like you're not having hedonic moments, these hedonic experiences. And so, yeah, I mean, I think one way to do that is again, to take this idea of baby steps and a little self compassion, right? You know, if you're going through a terrible episode, yeah, the song that moved you before isn't going to do so in the same way. You know, the main thing on your gratitude list, you're not going to feel it. And you know, that's a pain, that sucks, right? But it's something that you need to accept, it's not going to last forever, right? I think these sort of statements that you talk to yourself with can be really powerful in those moments. But that's one of the reasons that I think a practice of something like a delight practice

• 22:24Speaker 00

  can be so powerful is that if you commit to the tiniest thing, like you can start noticing again, and that can kind of break through. And I do think that these things sort of snowball. I mean, this is one of the things we know in depression, right? Is that, you know, you're not getting as much of a hedonic burst every time you do something fun, so then you stop doing things that are fun, and now you really don't have any hedonic burst, and then you're, you know, it's like, so if you can kind of get the snowballing to go very slowly in the other direction, it can be quite powerful. And in Ross Gay's book, you know, he talks about how this practice of delight has gotten him through, you know, some really tough times. You know, the book is really honest about issues of racial violence and things like that. And he says, even in the midst of the worst times, if you can just notice that one cool

• 23:09Speaker 00

  thing, it can kind of give you a little, you know, a peek of hope that can help you in a really important way.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think there's a couple of things you're pointing to there. One is specificity, right? If I can be more specific in what I'm grateful for, you just named it, like the way my dog drinks water, my dog's tail, right? It's the specificity. And then I think the second piece in what you're saying also is that I do think by looking for little moments of, even if the word delight is too strong, little moments of something that's positive shows that even something that feels as all encompassing as depression has its moments in which it's waxing and waning. It is not this constant thing. It's not always there in the same level with the same intensity.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  It seems like it, but these noticing of little delights, as you sort of said, short of, it allows you to see through these little holes, you know, like, oh yeah, okay, there's something out there. It's not all clouds, it's not all gray.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  And I think another key is to give yourself permission that those things we're supposed to have on our gratitude journal, like our spouse and our dog. But you know, if you can find the goofy things, it's one of the reasons I love Ross's book is, you know, in his big list is like the band El de Barge, like purple things, like, why is purple a color? It's such a weird color. I think if you can allow yourself a little bit of the goofiness, that can kind of snap you out of it a little bit too. It doesn't have to be, you know, the most meaningful thing in your life. You could just be like, yeah, it's pretty good, it's a good thing. It's like slightly above baseline and just get your brain to notice that stuff.

• 24:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, another person who does that well is a guy, Neil Pasricha. It's called The Book of Awesome, and then he's got other books of awesome, but it's basically that thing. He's been a guest a couple of times, and it's just fun. He approaches it in a fun, small way. But again, the thing that I notice about his stuff is it's so specific, and I think that's an important thing. Let's change directions because I have to ask you about an episode of The Happiness Lab, which is your podcast, and it's about something you worked on with Dallas Taylor to create, The Handbook for Sonic Happiness. Basically, the idea is sound has an enormous impact on happiness and well-being.

• 25:21Speaker 04

  I am an extraordinarily sound sensitive person, so I'm wondering if you can give us a few tips from The Handbook for Sonic Happiness?

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's funny that you're such a sound sensitive person. I feel like in general that, you know, might not be a good thing, but for a podcaster, that's a fantastic, like you can hear all the tiny things, you know? Yeah, I mean, one of the great things about talking with Dallas was realizing that we're not often intervening on the sound to promote our happiness and our mental health. What do I mean by that? You know, we're constantly intervening on our other senses to feel better. You know, if I'm having a bad day, I want to take a warm bubble bath, or maybe put on a candle, like I want to watch something on TV, I want to buy flowers, right? We're hacking vision and touch and like taste, right? You know, when I'm having a bad day, I want some ice cream, right? We do that quite naturally, and many of us have like straightforward go-tos of things

• 26:15Speaker 00

  in those domains that feel good. But we don't often do that as much with sound, maybe a little bit with music, right? You know, if I'm having a sad day, maybe I want to enhance the sadness and listen to a sad song, or listen to something peppy to get me out of it. But that's pretty limited in the scope of all the sounds we could be engaging with. You know, what Dallas really recommends is making sure that you are, as much as you can, limiting some of the bad sounds and kind of noticing them. You know, he talks about even ambient sounds in the room, like, you know, the hum of a refrigerator that's really annoying, or, you know, like just other sounds around you. Sometimes I notice this too, like I'm feeling just grated, and I'm like, what's going on? It's like, oh, there's some stupid hum like happening in the building next door that's like really bugging me, right?

• 26:59Speaker 00

  So kind of finding ways to limit the bad sounds, but really trying to find ways to mindfully notice some of the good sounds, you know, and trying to get beyond music for something that feels nice. You know, for me, it's often very natural sounds kind of sound amazing, right? Like, take a little hike or go somewhere natural, even if it's like a park in your neighborhood and just be quiet and notice. And, you know, you and I are having this conversation, you know, I'm in New England when it's right around the beginning of autumn, and the leaves are kind of rustling, and sometimes you can hear the acorns fall and things like that. You know, those are true delights for me, you know, those are delights in the sound domain, but I'm often not giving myself permission to engage with them. In the same way, I would totally give myself permission to engage with the taste of an

• 27:42Speaker 00

  ice cream cone, you know, or the warmth of a warm bath, right? Give yourself permission to engage in positive sounds.

• 27:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think the benefit of being a sound sensitive person and a person focused on positivity to some degree is I've really learned to seek those out. I had been a on-again, off-again meditator for a long time, and then someone said something to me that I had never heard of before. I don't think it's uncommon now, but this is 10 years ago. They said, go outside, sit outside, and just meditate on what you hear. Just follow what you hear. And when your mind, it gets lost in thought, just ask again, what can I hear? And all of a sudden, I was like, this is what I have been trying to get for 20 years from meditation, you know? It just really worked. And then that actually allowed me to settle enough that the other types of meditation

• 28:33Speaker 04

  became a lot more profound for me. So it really unlocked something for me. So I love to go outside and listen to sounds. But the downside of a sound sensitive person is sort of like you mentioned, if there's a rattle, or a hum, or a something, I mean, I am so aware of it. And what I don't know, and I can't decide, and I'd be curious to see, you know, kind of what your thoughts are and from what you've learned about it, is I sometimes worry that I'm making myself more neurotic around it. Just, it's a rattle, let it go, Eric. But I don't very well, you know? The other one is, and I think there's an actual name for this, but I don't know what the name is, but it's where the sound of other people eating drives you nuts.

• 29:16Speaker 04

  And I don't know whether you guys discussed that part at all.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  Couple of things there. One is, I think probably a lot of us are getting rattled by the rattle psychologically, but we're not mindful or aware enough to realize it. I know I'm just like, I'm in a bad mood, I'm going to strike out again, I'm going to say something to my husband, and I'm like, oh wait, it was the refrigerator hum. Like, it was like, there's a causal arrow from this nasty sound. So part of being, you know, sound sensitive, you might even say, sound mindful, right? I mean, sound sensitive is you're really affected by it, but sound mindful is you're noticing which things are out there. It can just give you some awareness, right? You might be able to do something to shut the rattle off, and even if you can't, you now at least have some awareness, okay, this is going on, right? You know, I know you talk a lot on the show about addiction and things like that, you know, it's the same as craving, right?

• 30:01Speaker 00

  You know, being mindful of the craving, now it's there, it's really present, but now you're aware of it, you can choose to do what you want to do with it. Maybe you're going to allow it, maybe you're going to non-judgmentally really pay attention to it. You know, and this was one of the things, you know, that I've seen in sounds that are annoying, is sometimes if you can get to recognizing them just as sounds, you know, just in the same way that you can recognize a craving, is it's just a feeling, and get really curious about it, like that rattle, you know, what's the frequency, the bump, bump, bump, bump, it makes my chest vibrate and things like that. Like now you're just digging into it and investigating it in a way that kind of causes it to lose its power, right? Like you notice it's not just this valence that's like, sucky, negative, stop, stop, stop. Like, you can sort of see it for what it is, and that can disarm it sometimes too.

• 30:45Speaker 04

  I like that idea. Actually, I had not thought of investigating it more closely. If it's rhythmic, I can capture the rhythm of it, and then it sort of disappears. It's the intermittent ones, but to your point, I'd either try and tell myself, don't be annoyed by it, or I make it go away, I do one of those two, but I have not that much, now that you're saying it, turned towards it in a curious way, learn more about it. How often is it? What are its frequencies? What, you know, I think that's helpful. All right, what about being driven crazy by the sound of other people eating? Can you fix this problem?

• 31:19Speaker 00

  Um, I think you could, yeah, maybe same technique, like get out of the room while you're eating. Yeah, it's just funny, I mean, it's the same with all affective things, right? You know, if you can really investigate your own preferences, sometimes you start laughing at yourself, right? You're like, I'm really, really annoyed by this guy chewing chips. You know, like if you can kind of get to a meta-awareness of what's really upsetting you, then again, through this process of kind of allowing it and investigating it, you can sometimes get some purchase on it to be like, wait, that doesn't make any sense. Again, it doesn't make it perfect, and it does take a lot of work, right? But you can kind of get to the other side on things.

• 32:23Laurie Santos?

  You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself reaching for over and over again? The sweater that somehow works with everything? The jeans you know will always fit just right? Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe. And that's exactly what Quince does so well. I recently pulled my fall clothes out of storage, and I was so excited to see my black Mongolian cashmere full zip hoodie that I got from Quince. It's soft and warm and perfect for cozy nights. I love it so much that I now have a gray one in my quince.com cart right now. And when I buy that new gray hoodie, I know I'll feel good about my choice because everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And as the weather gets colder, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe.

• 33:07Laurie Santos?

  From warm, reasonably sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Happiness Lab. It's the best way to support the show.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. Imagine Henry Ford trying to create the assembly line. He had factory plans, production schedules, supply information, research, and ideas coming from all directions. His team spent years studying how to make the process work. Now imagine having ChatGPT work. ChatGPT work can help with big projects that have lots of steps. You give it the goal along with real information like notes, files, reports, feedback, and project plans. It can use approved apps, connected tools and files to help turn all of that into something useful. A plan, an analysis, a tracker, a presentation outline, or a workflow you can keep improving. And you stay in control.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  You give direction, review the work, approve actions, and choose the final result. Would Henry Ford have built the assembly line faster with ChatGPT? We'll never know. Ford didn't have ChatGPT. You do. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 34:41Laurie Santos?

  I just moved into my new sabbatical house, and I've been trying to make it feel more me. The living room is already furnished with a boho vibe, but it lacked the perfect rug to bring the room together. That's why I turned to Wayfair. I bought Wayfair's washable, distressed, vintage floral oriental rug in blue. That rug is so soft and cozy, and I was able to find it in a vintage looking blue color that perfectly matched the rest of the items in the space. And with Wayfair, you can get rooms that look great at every price point. I'm only staying in my sabbatical place for a short time, so I didn't want to spend a lot on a new rug. But with Wayfair, you can shop thousands of products across every style and budget, whether you're simply replacing an appliance or transforming your home from top to bottom for the holiday season.

• 35:25Laurie Santos?

  And now that the weather's getting colder, I gotta say that I'm especially loving the coziness of my new rug. Find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com.

• 35:46Speaker 05

  Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 35:48Laurie Santos?

  What if I told you your skin and your brain are often in conversation? It's true, and that's why what you feel shows up on your skin. Think goosebumps, blushing, and even signs of stress. Tatcha harnesses the skin-mind connection to create skincare rituals that care for both skin and mind. At the heart of Tatcha's formulas is hadasai-ry. They're proprietary complex that counteracts visible signs of stress on skin. It's made up of three Japanese ingredients that are double fermented to harness 400-plus micronutrients. These micronutrients synchronize your skin's natural renewal cycles and boost resilience to daily stressors for visibly firmer, smoother, breathtaking skin.

• 36:30Laurie Santos?

  Visit tacha.com and use code HAPPINESS for 15% off your first purchase. That's T A T C H A dot com and use code HAPPINESS for 15% off.

• 36:42Speaker 04

  Another episode that you had recently, it was about, in essence, on one level, working too much, or how much is too much to work. But the insight that came out of it that I thought was really interesting was that we all want more time. We have this desire. I used to say, I want to be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want, right? Which is, in my case, an unqualified disaster when that occurs. But the point of the episode is that there is a sweet spot for how much discretionary time is helpful and that even moving small amounts of discretionary time can be very helpful, back to this little and often. So can you tell us a little bit more about that one?

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So this was work that was looking at how much discretionary time do we need? It was an episode with the psychologist Cassie Holmes, who's fantastic. She's got a great new book out on some of these topics. And I think we assume that infinite time is good, right? Like, all the free time possible. But what she finds is that you definitely need some free time, time that you would describe as free, that's not scheduled, but it's really not infinite. It's actually just a couple hours a day, maybe even the range of like two to three hours a day. And I think two things there. One is like, when you realize it doesn't have to be infinite, you're like, okay, this seems much more doable, right? Like, I think I can move things around to objectively get that much free time. Or it's a little easier than if I was going for infinite free time, for example. But the other thing that she talks a lot about is that we really need to prioritize

• 38:06Speaker 00

  that free time, right? And I think look really carefully at what's digging into it. Sometimes what's digging into it is work and paying the bills and, you know, yeah, that's a thing. But sometimes what's digging into it is stuff that's just like filling our time that we don't need. I know you love parables on the show. She talks about the perhaps apocryphal tale of some professor who was trying to teach his kids about the power of this. And he says, like, you have these ping pong balls, how many ping pong balls can I fit in this class? People say some number of ping pong balls, and he puts them in. And he's like, so is the glass full? And people are like, yeah. And then he brings out these little marbles, and he's like, well, actually, can I put some marbles in? And they're like, oh, yeah, you can. So he fits some marbles in. He says, well, now is the glass full? And people are like, yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  And then he pulls out the sand, and he's like, uh-huh, yeah, I poured the sand in. The reason this is relevant is he says, your time is this glass. And if you start filling it with the sand first, you won't be able to fit the ping pong balls, which are the things you really want to be doing with your life, the things that really fulfill you and build you up. And so I think with that metaphor, I think we can ask the question, like, what's the sand in our lives that fills things up? And what's the ping pong balls? And sometimes when you do that analysis, you realize the sand was, every free 10 minutes I had, I was looking at something stupid on the internet. And the sand was ruminating over and over again when I could have popped out and done a quick workout or something like that, right? It really allows us to analyze and be more intentional about how we're spending our

• 39:35Speaker 00

  time and recognize that it's a limited resource that we often don't think of as one, perhaps our most important limited resource. Money, if you blow it, you might be able to get more money someday. But time, when you blow it, is gone forever in your life. It's not coming back.

• 39:50Speaker 04

  When we're talking about discretionary time, are we talking about time that we get to choose what we want to do in and we may fill it up? Is it still discretionary time? For example, if I'm like, all right, well, I want to exercise for an hour and I want to meditate for 20 minutes and I'd like to do this. Would we still consider that sort of discretionary time? Because I don't have to do those things? Or would we still say, even beyond that sort of thing, I need some amount of time that's just do whatever I feel like?

• 40:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. Honestly, I think it kind of depends a little bit on how you frame it. You use the example of the time to exercise. There's different ways to frame that, right? You could frame it like, I'm done work and I get to do the things that are for me. What's the thing for me? Oh, I'm going to exercise. I'm going to have this amazing yoga session, right? Or you could frame that exercise as like, I have to do it. If I don't do my half hour exercise, I'm failing at my happiness mission, I'm going to die of a heart attack. There's a sort of have to-ness, a should-ness to certain kinds of things we do. And a lot of should-ness obviously comes from work and paying the bills and things, but sometimes we build up that should-ness in our brain for things that aren't a have to, right? That are supposed to be a want to, but now have somehow turned into a weird should have to.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  And the joke I use with my students is that you don't want to be should-ing all over yourself. Ha, ha, ha. But I think we often should all over ourselves in ways that make even the most leisurely things, even the things we would normally be doing as a gift to do ourselves, as this thing we should savor, this delicious ice cream cone of time that we've spent. And it just feels like crappy, like we're just trying to like push ourselves through it, you know, it feels like the most onerous work task. So I think it's not exactly defined by a particular thing. It's often defined by our attitude towards that thing. And this is one of the time hacks I think can be quite powerful, right? Is that you don't necessarily have to change how you're objectively spending your time to, you know, in some ways, subjectively think about your time use differently. If you can kind of change your attitude towards

• 41:48Speaker 00

  how you're spending your time, that might be enough.

• 41:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that is such a powerful intervention is to get to this, I'm choosing to do X, you know?

• 41:58Speaker 00

  Have to, get to, you know, I get to do this. This is amazing. Yeah.

• 42:02Speaker 04

  Well, even something like doing work as a parent can very much feel like I have to, you know, I had this realization, I've shared this on the show a number of times when my son was, I don't know how old he was, nine or whatever, and I was complaining about having to take him to soccer practice again. And I just went like, no, I don't. Like, there's no law that says I have to take my son to soccer practice. Like, I simply don't have to do that. Matter of fact, I could choose not to come home and his mother would have to take care of him. No, I'd have to pay child support, but I could make that choice. And just reframing it that way then caused me to go, okay, so I am taking him to soccer practice. Why am I doing it? And now I'm sort of linking this thing to something I value, you know? And the same thing, as you're saying, with exercise. Like, I can

• 42:46Speaker 04

  turn it into a have to do it, but I don't actually have to do it. I'm totally in charge of choosing. I'm choosing to do it. Why? Okay, because I know it makes me feel better. I know, you know, blah, blah, blah. So I think reframing things as choices in our lives, A, gets us out of that feeling of obligation, or we have to, that feeling, it's a trapped feeling for me, right? And then also does get me back in touch with my values, what matters to me. Then I can make a choice. Well, maybe that doesn't matter to me that much. Why am I doing that?

• 43:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I think that's really profound, right? In two ways. One is, kind of, as you mentioned, getting back to your values, right? So now you can appreciate this thing, right? You can have some gratitude for it. It's like allowing you to harness the things you care about.

• 43:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  But I think it also gets you back to a sense of agency, which just psychologically is powerful. We don't like to be forced, you know, and helpless in doing things. But I think that choice can remind you that, like, it's a choice. And, you know, to go back to the metaphor you mentioned, like, you can ask yourself, is this the sand or is this the, like, you know, big ping pong balls, right? You can really say, you know, and like really assess whether or not this is the kind of thing you want to be doing. Because sometimes, some of the things we think are have to's in life have moved away from our values, right? They're not serving us in the way that they served us before.

• 44:03Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  You know, you mentioned our theories of ourselves are several years old in some cases. I think our kind of meta theories of what our values are might be wrong. When we really introspect, you can be like, I don't have to do this. And in fact, I don't want to do this, even in terms of my values. So it can allow us to engage in behavior changes that really are going to serve us a little bit better.

• 44:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. You know, a lot of the stuff in your happiness course talks about, you know, there's some very basic things in there that I often am like, I wish I had recommendations that were more interesting than exercise, good sleep, and meditate. Like, feels a little bit like eat your vegetables, right?

• 44:39Speaker 00

  People pay you and they're like, wait, really? This is the rocket science of, you know, happiness research right now? Yeah. You know, one thing I like to tell my students is like, yeah, totally common wisdom, but definitely not common practice, right?

• 44:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's good.

• 44:53Speaker 00

  One of the reasons I think it's powerful to understand the scientific benefits of these things is I think it sometimes can help us pop over a little bit to behavior change, right? When you really reflect on the actual benefits of something like getting a half hour of cardio in, or the actual benefits of getting some sleep for your mental health, you know, you see, like, in my case, my students, like, they see these graphs of like, do you want to be here on your mental health or here, you know, this big graph. It's like, oh, like, you know, that can sometimes give you the motivation, the kind of kick in the pants to get back in gear with some of these things. But, yeah, I mean, there's stuff our societies have been saying, our cultures have been saying, our grandmothers have been saying, you know, for hundreds, if not thousands of years. But somehow, in the modern world, we've got away from actually practicing these things.

• 45:36Speaker 04

  Yep. So we're talking about this don't should on yourself or reflecting on choice, right? Which is very valuable. There are still going to be times, you know, with me, I'm like, okay, I know unequivocally the single best thing I can do for my mental health is exercise. Like, it is the number one intervention for me. I know that. I have internalized that. And yet, there are days where I'm like, I just don't want to do this. So there's a certain amount of like, yes, I want to have agency and I don't want to do this. And there's a certain amount of time where there is a need to sort of push and say, Eric, this is good for you. And do something that in the moment I may not be wanting to do. So how do you balance those two sort of, you know, not getting

• 46:19Speaker 04

  locked into obligation, not making something that's good for us a chore, knowing that sometimes we have to just go through the motion?

• 46:26Speaker 00

  I mean, if you only have days when you experience this, you're doing well. Because I have months.

• 46:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  I think, you know, one of the big insights, I think, that the research shows us is that a lot of this isn't what the actual activities themselves are, but it's how we talk to ourselves about them, right? So the shooting brain is really this kind of drill sergeant kind of idea of motivation, where you just think, if I just scream at myself and berate myself for being such, you know, idiot that I won't want to go to the gym, then that'll motivate me to go to the gym, right? And that feels like a should, it feels like a ought. It can turn the best thing that you love the most into this thing that feels like an external obligation. But then you also don't want to, you know, have the pendulum shift too far in the other direction, where you go into like indulgent mode, where you're

• 47:14Speaker 00

  like, oh, do whatever, just like be this crazy hedonist and hurt yourself, right? Because that can lead down a bad path, too. And so what you're trying to do is to find a happy medium, always hard, of course. But one of the voices to channel, I think, that helps with that happy medium is a voice of self compassion. Self compassion in the way that researchers like Kristin Naft at UT Austin talk about it, where you're trying to talk to yourself as a close friend would talk to you, right? You know, so let's say, you know, you haven't been to the gym in a while, you're feeling like crap, your close friend shows up. What are they going to say to you? They're not going to be like, Eric, you need to get your act together and get to the gym. What a loser. Like, they're not going to scream at you. They're not going to be like, no, you have tomorrow morning, 8:00 AM, you gotta go to the gym. Like, I'm going to beat you up or something, right? But they're

• 47:57Speaker 00

  also not going to be like, nah, not a problem that you're never going to the gym. Like, eat more ice cream, like, sit on your butt. Like, they're going to be like, Eric, what's going on? What's going on? Why aren't you going to the gym, right? They might be curious. They're going to be kind. They're going to try to get to the bottom of it. They're not going to let you indulge. Just, you know, self compassion is not self indulgence. But they're gonna, you know, try to figure out what's going on. And I think that's sort of the attitude we need to take to ourself. When we're feeling that resistance, one move is to actually get curious about the resistance and say what's, you know, going on. And I've done this, I mean, I definitely have had this specifically with exercise a lot. As I said, it's not days for me, sometimes it's months. But I find that when I get curious about it, it can help. Like, what's happening? Why does this feel like an obligation? What

• 48:42Speaker 00

  have I done? And sometimes you analyze and you realize, like, you know, it's the particular thing I'm compelling myself to do. There are other things that feel like a should in my life. And if I can't harness that time that I was exercising for something else, like, there's another thing that I'm missing that I want to get into. But all of that is, it's not necessarily which solution I come up with. It's just the fact that being curious about the resistance can allow you to stop butting heads against it. Either kind of, you know, plowing through it like a drill sergeant, which doesn't work, or ignoring it and letting it continue when the resistance is really not serving you. So, again, it's this kind of how you talk to yourself.

• 49:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  And allowing yourself to kind of get curious and pay attention and investigate what's going on with you.

• 49:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that's really good. I think another phenomenon I've noticed in myself is particularly with exercise. It's like, I look at exercise and I'm like, okay, my plan is I'm going to do a 60 minute bike ride that day. And I know how much energy a 60 minute bike ride takes. It takes 10 units of energy. And I look inside and I'm like, I have got one. This is not going to happen, right? So, you know, the other just sort of simple thing to do is to break it down and go like, okay, can I get on my bike shoes? That takes one unit of energy. I got one unit of energy. Good. I ease myself one step at a time into the thing. Can be another, just sort of a simple hack, for lack of a

• 50:04Speaker 04

  better word, to kind of get over that hump. Because I don't know what it is about exercise. I've asked, maybe you have a theory on this. I've never gotten a good answer for it, or not a complete answer, which is, I have exercised, let's say, I don't know, 5,000 times in my life. I don't know what the number is. It's a big number now, right? I'm not a young man. Every single time I've done it, when I'm done, I'm like, that, I'm so glad I did that.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  That was awesome. Gonna do that, yeah.

• 50:30Speaker 04

  Never once, not once, have I been like, ah, man, I wish I didn't do that, right? You would think that it would just be easy to do it, right? It just seems like my brain would learn, that's good, do it. And yet, it's still, sometimes, a big effort. I don't know if it just comes down to conservation of energy as a species. I don't know. You have any thoughts on that? Because it's strange to me.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  You're good if it's just exercise for you. I mean, for me, it's like, sit down to journal, do your meditation, like, call your mom. Like, there's so.

• 50:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  And so, one hint that we get from the neuroscience is that you'd like to think that, you know, the brain was organized in the following way. It was good at detecting what I really liked, you know, what drove pleasure. It would notice that really well. And then it would have mechanisms that motivate you that say, hey, whenever you feel that, you know, that little burst of pleasure, do that more often. Turns out, the brain doesn't have that many pleasure centers. They're like, really tiny and hard to find. Even as neuroscience researchers, early on, were looking for them, like, we don't have any pleasure centers. Meaning, we don't often notice what feels good, right? We notice things that really hack into those systems. So, you know, drugs of addiction, like, those hack into the system. Great, we notice that those feel good. And those are very hooked up to the motivation systems.

• 51:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  You know, sweet things, right? You know, these visceral states we get. But, you know, the nice, warm feeling I get from doing a nice gesture to somebody, you know, the warmth I get from social connection, the exercise endorphin high, don't notice it as much. However, the brain has lots and lots of neural real estate devoted to what you might call wanting. So if the pleasure systems are like the liking, the brain has lots of wanting stuff. And so, you get these systems that like, give you lots of craving to do stuff that, you know, just happen to be a hack in this liking system. Again, whether it's drugs of addiction, or things like social media, or, you know, all these like, little dopamine hacks, our brain is really ready to go after those. But it has no mechanism to learn about, you know, the big highs, the, you know, kind of like, deeper pleasures in life.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  And that sucks. It's such a stupid way to organize the brain. It'd probably work for rats, great for them, but like, not for us, you know? So how do you kind of combine these systems for wanting and liking better? You know, all the forms of liking, get them to talk to your wanting better. Sadly, it is not an obvious way, but there are hints that one way you can do it is to kind of ramp up your intentional noticing of the rewards you get. So my colleague, Hedy Kober, who's a neuroscientist at Yale, she's really interested in mindfulness approaches to addiction and things like that. You know, claims that you can use the same sort of approaches to notice the good things. Just as you can, with say, a craving for a cigarette or something, notice like, actually, what I'm craving is kind of gross, you know? Like, really pay attention to how this makes you feel, which is like, not that good.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  You can do the reverse for something like exercise. And so, this is something she practices all the time. She's like, the annoying friend that always wants to do like, the hard yoga, or the run, or the like. You know, she never has the thing that we were just describing. But it's in part because she's forced herself, at the end of it, in that moment you talk about, you're like, this feels great, to sit there and meditate on it. Like, oh, my chest feels lighter. I feel really good, right? Like, she's kind of giving her brain some time to be like, wait! Like, the reward areas that are kind of slow, unless it's like, a straight-up dopamine hit, they can kind of notice this stuff. And, you know, does that perfectly lock up your wanting and liking systems? No, but I think it can kind of help, this sort of mindfulness practice of noticing the rewarding parts. Just in the same way, you might notice that the negative things that are not serving you,

• 53:55Speaker 00

  when you sort of notice those consequences and really attend to how they feel, they can kind of get into that circuit a bit more, too.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. Imagine Henry Ford trying to create the assembly line. He had factory plans, production schedules, supply information, research, and ideas coming from all directions. His team spent years studying how to make the process work. Now, imagine having ChatGPT work. ChatGPT work can help with big projects that have lots of steps. You give it the goal, along with real information, like notes, files, reports, feedback, and project plans. It can use approved apps, connected tools, and files, to help turn all of that into something useful. A plan, an analysis, a tracker, a presentation outline, or a workflow you can keep improving. And you stay in control.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  You give direction, review the work, approve actions, and choose the final result. Would Henry Ford have built the assembly line faster with ChatGPT? We'll never know. Ford didn't have ChatGPT. You do. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 56:03Laurie Santos?

  What if I told you, your skin and your brain are often in conversation? It's true, and that's why what you feel shows up on your skin. Think goosebumps, blushing, and even signs of stress. Tatcha harnesses the skin-mind connection to create skincare rituals that care for both skin and mind. At the heart of Tatcha's formulas is Hadasei-3. Their proprietary complex that counteracts visible signs of stress on skin. It's made up of three Japanese ingredients that are double-fermented to harness 400-plus micronutrients. These micronutrients synchronize your skin's natural renewal cycles and boost resilience to daily stressors for visibly firmer, smoother, breathtaking skin.

• 56:45Laurie Santos?

  Visit tacha.com and use code HAPPINESS for 15% off your first purchase. That's T-A-T-C-H-A dot com, and use code HAPPINESS for 15% off. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There are plenty of reasons we put off getting support, and for a lot of people, cost is one of them. With BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide, with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And while we're reconsidering old assumptions, maybe there are a few others worth questioning, too. Women these days inherit a lot of unwritten rules. Be ambitious, but not too ambitious. Be there for everyone, but still make time for yourself. Have it all together, but don't look like you're trying too hard.

• 57:30Laurie Santos?

  I've been trying to unwrit the unwritten rule that I'm never allowed to say no, that it makes me a bad person. I've been trying to give myself the grace that I would give other people, and to remember that no one has the bandwidth to do everything all the time. If you're trying to work through your own unwritten rules, therapy may be of help. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks, and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside the US? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com/Laurie to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com slash Laurie.

• 58:14Laurie Santos?

  Life has a funny way of changing when we're not even looking. One day, your routine feels set, and the next, something shifts. A new job, a move, or maybe just a quiet realization that what used to work doesn't quite fit anymore. On this show, we talk a lot about how the little things in our daily lives shape our well-being, often more than the big, flashy milestones. And that includes what we drive. Because when something you use every single day feels aligned with your life, it removes friction. It makes ordinary moments smoother, less stressful. That's where Cars.com comes in. They have over 2 million new and used cars, and powerful filters

• 58:55Laurie Santos?

  that let you narrow your search by price, mileage, features, whatever actually matters to you. And their deal badges highlight when a listing is a great price, so you can feel confident you're making a smart choice. It's not just about buying a car. It's about choosing something that truly fits your routine and your next chapter. Start your search at Cars.com. Where to next?

• 59:22Speaker 04

  That's a really interesting perspective, the liking and wanting systems. And that a lot of the things that these pleasures we're describing that come from wholesome activity, they're a subtler thing, and so savoring them is really important. It's just so interesting, having been somebody who had drugs of addiction, right, as a heroin addict, it amazes me looking back on the amount of pleasure I was getting at the end was so small compared to the price I was paying, you know? And I've heard people describe some theories of addiction people have is that there's learning disorder associated with it, in that your brain is just not updating its priors, so to speak, right?

• 1:00:01Speaker 04

  It's stuck on the heroin good signal, even though heroin is clearly not any longer good. My brain is like, it doesn't get it, you know? And so I think that these things are really tricky, that liking and wanting, I think it's really interesting that the brain has a lot of real estate devoted to wanting.

• 1:00:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, and in that the wanting sticks really strongly to certain things, right? Again, drugs of abuse, a lot of times are hacking your dopamine system. As does the intermittent reward of your Instagram feed, you know, as does the like really central pleasures like sugar and, you know, lounging around and things. But that wanting system has nothing to stick on to for these bigger pleasures, and it doesn't update well, you know, as you mentioned, you know, I think one of the sad things, you know, if you're really addicted to a particular drug is that you're habituated to it, you're definitely not getting, not only are the consequences super high, but you're also probably not getting the same pleasure that you were getting in the beginning, because your brain's kind of used to it. But yet, still, the wanting systems like, want, want, want. If I could go back in evolutionary time and like tweak one thing about the brain,

• 1:01:03Speaker 00

  it would probably be to put more pleasure zones for the bigger, you know, more meaningful pleasures, and it would be to hook the wanting systems up a little bit better to those. But sadly, I did not get consulted on how brains should be designed, so, oh, well.

• 1:01:17Speaker 04

  So do you think, though, that, and this is just pure conjecture, that if we, as a species, manage to not exterminate ourselves in the next several thousand years, that that will change? Because to your point, for rats, it's a very simple system, right? They don't have meaningful pleasures in the same way that we do, right? Do you think that we might evolve to be a little wiser about these things and to shake off some of this evolutionary baggage? One being like, that maybe we would realize like, uh, sugar and fat are not always good. Do you think that humans will evolve? And again, this is just conjecture, but I'm curious what you think.

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, no, totally. Scientifically speaking, I think these selection pressures have to be pressured to change things around in the brain. You know, if, if sugar and fat were killing us, you know, then we might, over time, develop adaptations not to like it. And that's kind of true, but, but not so quickly, you know, in like real evolutionary time, like, I think evolution always moves towards the directions of adaptation, but sometimes does it really slowly, right? You know, not in our lifetime and not in a long time for the human species. That said, I think, you know, this is where cognitive hacks can come in, right? You know, if we can get good at noticing, mindfully paying attention to certain rewards, you know, that really seems to be a hack on this system. It takes a tremendous amount of work.

• 1:02:40Speaker 00

  I mean, this is like, you know, we're talking like Buddhist meditation levels of, you know, commitment to this stuff. But there's a sense in which you're kind of hacking these things. And this is one of the things I love about, you know, recent neuroscience work that looks at people who engage in these ancient spiritual practices, is that they are literally hacking their brain. You know, if you look at a long-term meditator, they just have less neural real estate devoted to mind wandering. You know, if you look at a monk who's done, you know, many, many hours of compassionate meditation, their brains just go more quickly to engaging with compassion to other people. If you look at drug addicts who've used mindfulness practices to overcome craving, when you look at, you know, their brain when they're in a craving state, it looks different than,

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  you know, a recovering addict who might not have used these mindfulness practices. And so there are hints that we can start hacking these systems through work and so on. That's not as easy as like, you know, meteor hits, like only people with certain wanting liking systems stick around, be way easier, you know, although maybe more tragic. But, but the good news is that with effort and intention, there are some hacks that can help this stuff.

• 1:03:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think we can change this wiring extensively, my own life just being a testament to that. I've shared this story several times recently on the show, so sorry, listeners, if it's getting boring, but I think it's an important one, which is, my mom broke her hip, and I was picking up all her prescriptions. I was carrying OxyContin back and forth from my mom's house. The amazing thing is, not only did I not want it, I didn't even think about it. It was a month or two into it that I was like, that's incredible. But I would have robbed somebody at gunpoint for that once upon a time. You know, I mean, I think that just speaks to, change is really possible if we just keep doing these things. Now, I've got a lot of years away from heroin, so it doesn't happen overnight, but it is possible.

• 1:04:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think that's important to remember. You know, it gets back to something we were talking about before, that little and often, right? The often is the key, I think, in your case, right? Like, you, you have to fight that craving, or allow it, or investigate it a lot to get to the point that you're at. But it does get easier over time, for sure.

• 1:04:45Speaker 04

  We've been talking a fair amount about behavior change here, and there's lots of techniques and tools for behavior change. But one of them is that the support of other people, or a term I've seen you use as cultural or religious structures. You talk about how it seems kind of very clear that like your CrossFit gym, or your church, or these things can help make behavior change occur. And you then go on to say, well, what's driving it? Is it the beliefs of the organization of the thing? Or is it simply the commitment to it? And I just would love to hear you kind of talk through that again, because I think it's really interesting.

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, so you know this better than anyone, or your listeners, your podcasts, if they've been listening before, I'll know this better than anyone. Behavior change is a hard, a hard, hard, hard, right? So any hacks that we can figure out to help us can be huge. And I think one of the hacks that we forget about, we love this sort of Protestant work ethic idea, that like, I'll just power through it, you know, me, me, me, this individual changing my behavior against the world. But one thing we find is that behavior change often seems a lot easier when you have environments and structures around you that are kind of consistent with that change. You know, what do I mean? Like, if you want to exercise, that's much easier if all your friends exercise, right? Like, that's much easier if you have like, you know, this like padded out home gym that's amazing, right? Like, that's much easier if you just happen to live in a place where, you know, there's

• 1:06:10Speaker 00

  no cars, you gotta walk all the time, you're just gonna get that in more naturally. So the environments can really help us, and sometimes those environments are physical structures, you know, like lots of walking paths and, you know, an elliptical machine in your apartment. But sometimes those structures are really like cognitive structures, they're belief systems, right? You know, they're about the people around me value this, right? The people around me are committed to this. And I think both of those kinds of things can really work their magic. Those are both kinds of structures that seem to really help us. But it's often not the kind of beliefs and values we think. You know, so one of the big findings I talk about in my class is that overall, religious individuals tend to be happier. People who have a belief in afterlife, belief in God, and so on.

• 1:06:54Speaker 00

  And so you could say like, well, maybe it's their, their personal beliefs, right? Like, they, you know, have this belief in afterlife that gives them meaning and so on. Turns out, not so much. It turns out, if you factor certain things out, a belief in, you know, a God or something like that, doesn't actually matter. What, what seems to matter a lot more is the practices you engage in. Religious individuals go to services, so they engage in social connections. Religious individuals often are part of organizations that engage in charity, so they do nice things for each other. They pray, and so they get a chance to be mindful and take some time where they're present. They often engage in practices related to things like gratitude and other pro-social emotions. You know, they're just like physically around other people all the time, because they're engaging with these other folks. And so we think structures have to be about our own personal beliefs and like what we

• 1:07:39Speaker 00

  believe and what we value. But sometimes the environments around us can be shaping our behavior in ways that are so much easier. I have a recent episode of my podcast where I interview the inventor of these so-called blue zones, Dan Buettner. He's an author who studies places around the world that tend to have these positive practices, either for like physical health, like places that induce longevity, where people live healthily for a really long time, or places that induce happiness. And he's fond of saying that like, any attempt to individually change your behavior without your environment supporting you is doomed to failure. Like, you know, you could do all these different hacks and download apps and get coaches and whatever, but like, if you just moved to a place that was happier, or moved to a place where you exercised more, that would impact your behavior so much more.

• 1:08:24Speaker 00

  You know, he's being a little harsh. We know that with work, you can change your behavior. But it's definitely true that if you can find some environmental support, that helps enormously.

• 1:08:33Speaker 04

  It makes such a huge difference. I mean, I got sober in 12-step communities, and, you know, I've had friends of mine who were former heroin addicts say it was harder to quit smoking than stop doing heroin. And there's a variety of reasons for that, but one of them, I think, is simply when we went to get off heroin, we were embedded in a community that was focused on that. And when we stopped smoking, primarily, most people just simply go, all right, I'm gonna stop smoking. And they do it entirely on their own. You know, I think it makes such a difference. And I think this idea between beliefs and practices, I've often heard people describe Judaism as a religion that's less about belief and more about practices, you know?

• 1:09:15Speaker 04

  I often try and tweeze apart, what in 12-step programs worked? What was it that was actually working there? And, you know, it's interesting to think about, but I do think that the community aspect of it, that piece of it is really, really important. In 12-step programs, they talk about unity, service, and recovery. And I think that's really interesting. The unity are the people. The service is doing something that cares about other people. And then the recovery was some method of personal, internal transformation. I think that can just be applied to us generally as humans. You know, those three things are really helpful orienting points.

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  Totally. And I also think this idea of, you know, giving up control, you know, which can be complicated. I think it has certain religious overtones and so on. But, you know, ultimately, it's really accepting your common humanity, you know, which is something that people who do work on self-compassion talk about, right? It's like, I'm not going to be perfect. I'm just going to be human. I am going to be tempted, right? You know, like, I have to kind of come to terms with the fact that I'm not the one, you know, who's in control all the time. And that humility can often ground us in a whole host of attitudes and ways of talking to ourselves that allow us to be a little bit more self-compassionate, right? Like, you know, I'm not going to be perfect. Maybe let's not put myself in this situation. It's going to be really hard. Like, I'm not Superman, right? Like, I need to ask for help, right?

• 1:10:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  You know, all of these are practices where you're kind of compassionately dealing with yourself, but those are practices that also make behavior change much easier.

• 1:10:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'd like to turn now towards loneliness. There's a lot of it out there, and it's not such an easy thing to solve. I was talking with someone who is lonely about this. And this is a person who's had lots of loss in their life. So everything that they sort of relied on is just kind of gone. And they're sharing how, you know, it's one thing when you've got a spouse to go out and find some additional community by joining a club, but that when you have none of those foundations, it's very, very difficult. So I'm wondering, what might you say to someone who's in that position, who's, you know, really isolated and becoming unisolated feels like a tremendous amount of work and

• 1:11:29Speaker 04

  is very discouraged by it?

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think first, they can recognize that you are not alone. Like, a lot of people relate, right? Like loneliness is skyrocketing, even if you don't have people talking to you about it. I mean, you know, even the Surgeon General of the United States, Vivek Murthy, has been focusing on loneliness in part because he thinks it's a public health crisis. A public health crisis because of how dangerous it is, but also a public health crisis because of how common it is, right?

• 1:11:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  And so I think that's step number one is like, you know, you're not a loser. There's not something wrong with you. Like, this is something a lot of people are going through. But that also comes with, you know, something that's related, which is that if you reach out in a baby step way, you'll often be surprised about how many people will follow up. I think one of our fears of loneliness is, or one of our worries when we're feeling lonely about doing something about it, is we're kind of simulating how much work it's going to take and how much success we're going to get, right? Where someone like, oh, it's going to be such a pain to like, call somebody or go to this club or whatever. And we're simulating, you know, if I do reach out, people aren't going to like me, right? And scientists have looked at this, and there's evidence that both of those intuitions are wrong, right? Our predictions about how much of a pain in the butt, how stressful, how, you know,

• 1:12:40Speaker 00

  annoying, how maybe awkward it's going to be to reach out, they're all wrong. Like, our brain is telling us, oh, don't do that. It's going to be a pain. Not going to be as much of a pain as you think, right? And our brain is also telling us stuff about how successful it's going to be. And we, there's so much evidence that we mispredict how many people are going to like us. We mispredict how much people will appreciate our attempt at reaching out, especially if we haven't reached out in a long time. And I think recognizing that those biases are biases, that our intuitions are wrong, can be really helpful when you're making the decision to try to overcome your loneliness. Because you're like, ah, this feels like it's going to be a lot of work? You can be like, nope, science says it's not. Let me just try it, right? Let me just try it and take a baby step towards it. And then often, if you're paying attention, you'll get some positive reinforcement back, right?

• 1:13:23Speaker 00

  You think, oh, it's going to be so onerous to go to this club, especially if I don't have a spouse, I have, you know, nobody to talk to. But then when you try it, it actually works. The key, though, I think, you know, especially with the science, is that you kind of have to try it the right way. And the right way is really making sure that you're doing that first step to reach out, you know, including when you go to a place, you know? So, you know, I've seen friends who say, you know, I'm, you know, lonely, like, maybe I should, I'll go to CrossFit, or, you know, I'll go to a book club, or I'll go to this thing. But then they get to the book club and they like, you know, are on their phone checking their email, or they're like playing with the cat, you know, at the book club, right? Like, they're not actually talking to people.

• 1:13:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:13:58Speaker 00

  And what does that do? You know, it reinforces a cycle where people think, well, you're not interested in them, so they're not going to try to talk to you. So I think we need to recognize that it's not just putting ourselves in this situation, but it's having our own openness. Often, solutions to loneliness involve not like someone reaching out to us, but us reaching out to other people, us trying to solve other people's loneliness, us feeling like, you know, we're the ones who are going to talk to somebody so they feel better. That's what kind of opens things up.

• 1:14:26Speaker 04

  That's a really interesting perspective. And actually, I think my own experience would bear that out in certain cases. One-on-one, I am pretty fine with people. Put me in a room full of people that I don't know, and I hate it, you know? If I could have three glasses of whiskey, I would like it a whole lot more, but I, but I don't. And so what I've found, though, in some of those situations is exactly what you just said, is the strategy for me sometimes is look around and see who looks lonely and go approach that person as a starting point. It's funny when you said that, like, you know, you go to the event and you're on your phone, or you're playing with the other people's cat, you know? I am totally that way. Put me in a new social situation. What I've learned about myself is I may not even be able that first couple of times to overcome it.

• 1:15:11Speaker 04

  Like, it just may be too strong. But if I keep going, I can find something. And I've seen some research talking about, you know, it takes a while to build a connection or a friendship. And the thing that I've done so many times in my life is show up someplace once and be like, no, not my people, because nothing happened, right?

• 1:15:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:30Speaker 04

  And I just know for myself that the first time I show up, my defenses are just, they're unconscious and they're high enough that I'm either going to think, I don't like these people, or they don't like me. One of those two things is going to be going on in my brain. And I just kind of have to ignore it and go, well, try again, you know? Try a few times. If this seems like it's a place that might offer the kind of community I want, I may have to venture into the space multiple times. And then sooner or later, I find like, all of a sudden, my walls start dropping. And so that's a way of doing it, even if you can't quite overcome, you know, what you're saying. Like, the first time I'm there, all I can do is play with the cat because I feel so shy.

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  I like your suggestion there. You can also look at it from the other people's perspective, right? Like, why didn't they connect with me? It might not be because, you know, you're a loser and unconnectable. It might have been, you were playing with the cat the whole, you know? So it's like, I think if you, if you, if you frame it more like, I'm going to help the loneliest person at the party, that's super helpful. I mean, I've seen this on one-on-one, you know, if, you know, if you're feeling anxious, socially anxious, and a party's not the right scene, fine. Look through your phone or your email list and say, I'm going to, you know, text or email the person in this list that I think might be the loneliest. And I'm just going to check in. And you'd be surprised how much good work that does.

• 1:16:47Speaker 04

  This is my final question. To what extent does virtual connection, can it be a replacement for in-person connection? Is it 50% as good, 75% as good? Am I asking the wrong question?

• 1:17:00Speaker 00

  It's a good question. And the answer is sort of, it depends on how you do it, right? You know, you and I are talking virtually over our, you know, favorite podcast app, and it feels pretty good. Like, we're having this nice connection. I see you.

• 1:17:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:17:10Speaker 00

  And that's in part because it's in real time, right? We're talking, using the same things as primates that we were built over evolution to do, right? We're talking in real time with one another. I think that virtual connection works less well if you're not doing it in real time, like, you know, a text thread where you're texting a friend. It just kind of doesn't jive with the way our psychology is used to.

• 1:17:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  But the cool thing is, we have lots of tools now that allow us to do that, from like FaceTime and Zoom where you can see each other, or just like the old school phone, right? We have these, you know, smartphones that are our cameras and our alarm clocks and all these things, and we forget, like, you could just use it as a phone. And we know the phone, you know, is pretty good for social connection. It was like, really all we had for a very long time, so.

• 1:17:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think the thing that sometimes people will do, and I know I've been guilty of this, is like, well, in-person connection's what's really important, so I won't do Zoom.

• 1:18:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:18:00Speaker 04

  Thinking it's somehow inferior, but it's still way, way, way better than nothing.

• 1:18:05Speaker 00

  And I think this, for me, was, you know, a gift of the pandemic. You know, I could talk about silver linings and blessings and really awful situations, was that, you know, I think it got a lot of us to, you know, do these Zoom hangouts with the friends, or Zoom movie, or game nights, and Zoom yoga classes. I was doing Zoom yoga with friends. And it made me realize, like, wait, this is pretty good. You know, there are people that live far away that I won't see in person for a while, but connecting with them over Zoom was great. And some of those, you know, Zoom things I was doing, I'm still doing with those friends. My college roommates are scattered all across the country, and we still do these like, once a month, kind of, you know, spa night hangouts over Zoom, because we realize, like, it's better to see them that way than not at all. So I think, you know, listen to those lessons. They can be powerful.

• 1:18:49Speaker 04

  Well, Laurie, thank you so much for coming on. It has been such an enjoyable conversation, and I'm so grateful that you had time to join us today.

• 1:18:57Speaker 00

  Thanks so much for having me on the show.

• 1:19:16Laurie Santos?

  The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. When it comes to taking care of their customers, Amica goes the extra mile. From listening to your insurance needs to following up after a claim, Amica provides coverage with empathy. Because as a mutual insurer, Amica is built for its customers and prioritizes you. It's the way insurance should be. Amica, we're your priority number one. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

• 1:19:44Speaker 06

  This is Stugatz from Stugatz and Company Live. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan, with the latest features, N-Tech, or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops, while Toyota's legendary resale value means you can get more at trade-in. Get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  For I don't know how long, maybe 12, 13 years, I've worn a Whoop band on my wrist. I started doing it because I met the founder of Whoop at a conference. He heard that I was a runner, and he said, oh, you'll love this. It's perfect for athletes. And he was right. I've worn one ever since. Every time I work out, I see how hard I worked, how long I need to recover. I wake up in the morning and I get a complete picture of how my sleep went, which helps me understand the kinds of things that lead to a bad night and the kinds of things that lead to a good night. It's sleek, long-lasting battery, and now with AI looking at all my numbers and coaching me. Whoop is a winner. New members can try Whoop with a 30-day free trial before committing to a membership.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  That's whoop.com for your free month of Whoop.

• 1:21:11Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.