Silence the 5 Inner Critics DESTROYING Your Confidence | Fighter Pilot Michelle Curran (PT. 2)

Self-doubt is just one of the 5 voices you can’t afford to keep listening to. Former U. S. Air Force fighter pilot Michelle Curran and Ryan continue their conversation, breaking down the five inner critics that fuel fear, doubt, and perfectionism and show you how to rise above them. They talk about what people get wrong about courage, the myth of shortcuts, the illusion of importance, and how to push past the voices telling you you’re not enough. Michelle “MACE” Curran is a former United States Air Force fighter pilot with nearly 2,000 hours of F-16 flying time. She flew combat missions in Afghanistan and honed her skills across the globe, becoming the second woman in history to serve as the Lead Solo Pilot for the Thunderbirds, the Air Force’s elite demonstration team. Known for her signature upside-down maneuvers, Mace performed for millions, inspiring audiences at airshows and flyovers like the Super Bowl, Daytona 500, and Indy 500. You can follow her on Instagram @Mace_Curran https://www.instagram.com/mace_curran/?hl=en and learn more about her work at https://macecurran.com/ 📚 Check out her book The Flipside: How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear into Your Superpower https://www.amazon.com/dp/1538768100/?bestFormat=true&k=the%20flipside%20michelle%20curran&ref_=nb_sb_ss_w_scx-ent-pd-bk-d_k0_1_14_de&crid=49ORZPBW0NKQ&sprefix=the%20flipside%20m, which just released this week! 👉 Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing to The Daily Stoic Premium https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content: https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ 📖 Preorder the final book in Ryan Holiday's The Stoic Virtues Series: "Wisdom Takes Work": https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/wisdom-takes-work https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/wisdom-takes-work 🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast/?hl=en: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast 🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast ✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail 🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/ 📱 Follow us: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/, Twitter https://twitter.com/dailystoic, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic, TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@daily_stoic?lang=en, and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/dailystoic See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,

• 0:46Ryan Holiday?

  and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

• 0:54Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I tweaked my back somehow, running around Town Lake this morning. I don't know what happened. It's killing me. It's funny, though. A couple of weeks ago, I was running on the Town Lake Trail as I do. You either do the 10-mile loop or have this other one that's sort of like seven and a half. I think I was doing the 10. And I came around the part where there's this boardwalk. After you go under the I-35 bridge, you go under it, and then you pop out and you're on this sort of boardwalk along the lake/river. There's Colorado River. It's the same river that's actually right behind the bookstore, although it looks very different. And I saw someone, and they looked familiar, and they kind of looked at me.

• 1:39Ryan Holiday?

  And I sort of catch that from time to time when I'm running on the trail. Someone shouted at me this morning when I ran. I sort of get recognized, but I don't tend to stop because I'm in the middle of my thing. And then I got an email later that day from a woman named Sarah. She said, "I saw you on the trail this morning and had a funny moment." She said, "Do I know you?" And you look back like, "Do I know you?" And then it clicked. She said, "I'd just been telling my friend about her membership to Daily Stoic Life, which is our members' community for people who want to take their Stoicism stuff to the next level. You can join at DailyStoic.com." She said, hey, another close friend of mine, Michelle Mace Curran, it's going to be on your podcast soon. We always catch up when she's in Austin. She said, I can't wait for that episode to drop. She's an absolute force. And I said, hey, come along when she does

• 2:24Ryan Holiday?

  the podcast, which she did. So that was a nice, small world. I brought you part one of this episode earlier in the week. Mace is a former US Air Force pilot. She flew almost 2,000 hours in the F-16. She flew combat missions in Afghanistan. And then she went on to be the lead solo pilot for the Thunderbirds, where she became known for flying upside down, doing all these crazy things that quite frankly terrify me. And she's flown over the Super Bowl and Daytona 500 and the Indy 500, bunch of awesome stuff. And she has this new book called The Flip Side, How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear Into Your Advantage. I was really excited to have her on the podcast. Part one was

• 3:08Ryan Holiday?

  great. We were talking about some of the stereotypes of being a fighter pilot, how ego can get in your way. You know, it's not about being an adrenaline junkie or fearlessness, as the subtitle of the book is about. And then in part two, we're talking about that voice of inner criticism. What is the hardest criticism to take? And then how fear is again a requirement for bravery. And if there isn't fear, courage isn't much of a virtue, is it? You can follow her on Instagram at Mace Curran, and you can check out her book, The Flip Side, How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear Into Your Superpower, which was just released this week. Thanks to Michelle for her service and for coming on the podcast. I think you're really gonna like it.

• 3:56Ryan Holiday?

  It's funny, too. You talked about asking for help. There's something about that, too, where it's like, when other people ask us for help, we're like, oh, here, let me help you. We're not like, what a fucking moron, a loser, right? Like, we're actually like excited, or it doesn't even register. And then the next day, we're like, well, if I ask for help. It's so cra- like, like, the thing, we get in our head about it and then even though we have objective evidence that no one cares.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22Ryan Holiday?

  There's actually a famous Marx realist quote where he says, um, we're like soldiers storming a wall. He says, you've fallen and you have to ask a comrade for help. So what? And I love the so what of it because it, it really does pierce this kind of insane chain of assumptions we make up in our head. Where like, if you're all storming a wall and someone falls, you're not like, I told you not to do like-

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, you idiot!

• 4:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, that's not occurring to anyone. And in fact, they're like, there's something beautiful about being able to help that person. And yet we're so reluctant to possibly ask for the help that we need to get better.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. When my son, he plays baseball and when he first started pitching as like a nine, 10 year old.

• 5:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  He would get, he would cry on the mound because he was so nervous. Everyone's watching the pitcher.

• 5:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  So if he messed up a little bit, he was just devastated. And we would ask him why. And he's like, well, everyone's judging, everyone's, you know, thinks I'm bad at baseball. And I'm like, when your friend, other friend that pitches-

• 5:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Has a bad inning, what do you think about him? And he was like, nothing.

• 5:28Ryan Holiday?

  Well, then it's like, by the way, bro, you're crying on the mound. If you want, like, that's very much less conspicuous or more conspicuous than whatever you're trying to avoid.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 5:37Ryan Holiday?

  I deal with this all the time with people. It's like, hey, I need to see this by like Tuesday. And then the person doesn't deliver it on Tuesday. And you're like, where is that you're bothering? And then, and then they're like, well, I wanted it to be perfect or I didn't want to upset you. And it's like, you upset me by delivering it on Thursday. Like, if it was not per- if you had told me on Monday that you were having trouble, there would have been no issue. If you delivered it imperfectly on Tuesday, I would have worked with that. Instead, now I've spent a bunch of resources and time trying to get this thing from you. So I'm already upset with you. And then it's blown the whole schedule. Like, just the way we get in our own head, we, we, we take a situation that would be nothing and we, we turn it into a something that's much worse than whatever it is that

• 6:20Ryan Holiday?

  we're trying to avoid. Like, how often perfectionism really is just a form of procrastination.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, perfect enemy of good.

• 6:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. So what are the five inner critics?

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when I was thinking about just my own experiences and that voice in my head that got in my way, I realized it looked different and sounded different at different points.

• 6:41Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  And the most primal one is the fear critic, right? This is the bungee jumping one.

• 6:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  It's like, okay, if you step off this platform, you're dead.

• 6:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  So we go back to

• 6:50Ryan Holiday?

  What might happen?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Right. We're avoiding the saber tooth tiger, all the things, you know, all of that primal brain. So that's the most obvious one. The second one is the comfort critic. And I think a lot of us struggle with this right now because everything is so comfortable.

• 7:03Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Netflix, Uber Eats, like, I don't need to leave my house. I can have all, Amazon's gonna deliver that in three hours.

• 7:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  And so it's this resistance to this feels really comfortable. Why would I step outside of that?

• 7:15Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  And we have a hard time having perspective on all the things that we're missing out on by staying on our couch.

• 7:21Ryan Holiday?

  It's good to do hard things.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:23Ryan Holiday?

  Hard things are uncomfortable.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  They're hard. Right. The friend critic. And that is like, you want to be liked. You want, this is like your best friend in sixth grade is the analogy I always use. You don't want to do anything to rock that boat.

• 7:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  You want to fit in, which goes heavily with the reputation critic, which is the next one. And that is just this tribal idea, right? Like, if I do this, people are gonna reject me from their tribe. And I feel that now, having left the air force and having left being a fighter pilot.

• 7:59Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  But still wanting to be part of the fighter pilot tribe.

• 8:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  And telling my story. And then when I still find myself being very like hyper aware of how my community, not like an individual person, it's just this faceless entity.

• 8:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Might feel about that.

• 8:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Are they gonna judge me for standing out too much? Or for disagreeing with them? Or yeah, all that.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then the last one's the wrong critic. And I feel like right now with just how contentious everything is. I know I am often afraid to speak my mind because if I can't back it up like a thesis, I'm like, I'm gonna look dumb because I might be wrong. Like, I might have the general idea, right?

• 8:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  But if I say, oh, well, this is 70% of this, and it's actually 65%, I'm gonna look like an idiot.

• 8:44Ryan Holiday?

  Sure. Yeah, the getting attacked over details,

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:49Ryan Holiday?

  or you make a mistake or whatever. It's just easier to not stand out.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. And so I've done a bunch of workshops on those, and I found that labeling them helps people identify them.

• 9:00Ryan Holiday?

  Like, which one am I experiencing right now?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Yep, it gives them that perspective.

• 9:03Ryan Holiday?

  And then is it, how do you silence that critic? Or what do you?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  It's not necessarily silencing it because I think that that can be very difficult to do. I imagine even you at the level you're at, you still have like a new book coming out, you still have those moments of doubt, the voices, the critics, all the things. But it's just gaining that perspective, giving you the ability to take it or leave it and be like, this isn't me, this isn't fact. Kind of like I mentioned earlier, my thoughts are not 100% fact.

• 9:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Let's zoom out, let's look for some objective evidence, if that's true or not. It also gives you a chance to bring in someone else to help you, right? To talk about it with a mentor or your spouse or whoever it is, or journal about it. And I think getting it out of your head,

• 9:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  whether that's vocally or writing it down, often it's just like flipping this light on and you're like, oh, that's not a monster in the corner. It's a dirty pile of laundry.

• 9:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  And it takes the power away.

• 9:57Ryan Holiday?

  The hard thing about criticism is like, nobody would get where they ended up if they listened to criticism. And so this goes to the idea of ego is like, you got there ignoring the doubters, ignoring the people who said you were too tall or not the right gender, or, you know, all the different things, right? Then you get to a place of success or achievement, and suddenly being able to parse criticism is actually like super important. And so this, this- This ability to tune it out sometimes and really listen to it other times, or to know, like as a writer, like the difference between, you know, reading what people write about you after the book is out, and then being able to take notes.

• 10:40Ryan Holiday?

  But but prior to that, being able to take notes from people you admire, or to hear things that, like, the hardest, the hardest criticism to take is when someone is criticizing something that you really like in in a book, like something, oh, that's, but that's the best part, you know? And or or when you're hearing something and you go, I think you're right, but if you're right, it means I have to do all of these things. So that that's like the comfort when you're talking about where you're like, do I can, I have two options here. I can go do this unpleasant work, or I can just tell myself that you're wrong, you know? And so being able to know which criticism to listen to,

• 11:22Ryan Holiday?

  especially when I would say on the whole, most criticism is not correct.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:27Ryan Holiday?

  That's the whole ballgame right there.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  And that has been, I've been, you know, doing what I'm doing now is writing and speaking and stuff, and very visible on social media for the last three years. And I would say I get asked about how I manage that a lot, and I don't have the best answer for people because I don't do it perfectly.

• 11:45Ryan Holiday?

  I don't think anyone has a good answer.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Right? Like objectively, I know this random person, whether they're a fake account that's like got five followers, or they're, a lot of them are veterans, like an older generation of veterans. So I inherently have some respect for them, and they have some credibility that Joe Schmo, who has never done what I've done, doesn't have.

• 12:03Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  And it will stick with me. It will live like rent free in my head for the whole day. And then I get mad at myself that I'm letting them impact me like that. And I'm like, you should just block that person and move on with your life. I know that objectively, right? I should be stoic. I should choose to not be annoyed by this, or I should choose, but it is difficult to execute.

• 12:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, Marcus Aurelius' line is, "We all love ourselves more than other people, but we care about their opinions more than our own."

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:40Ryan Holiday?

  And it's like, I know about this because it's my thing. And yet I'm letting some other person tell me whether I did it or not, what's true or not.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:50Ryan Holiday?

  And then it's like, I wouldn't listen to this person about literally anything else. But because they're talking about me, I think we're, in some cases, so desperate for feedback that we'd rather just mainline shit from people we don't respect than, than just sort of sit with the, the unknowingness of just like, hey, I'm pretty sure I did this right, but I'll never know.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  I've gotten a little bit more acceptance that I will not please everyone. And I've come to be like, okay, you can have that opinion, you're not my target audience.

• 13:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, that's extreme. Like, there's no one, okay, so there's no one who's ever bad at 100%, right? Like, even the most successful people have not just like a percentage of the audience that doesn't like them, but the bigger that you are, the bigger you are, the, the larger, not just the larger the percent might be, but the, the sheer amount of people that, like, you think about, if something sells a million copies and 10% of people who read it don't like it, or listen to it don't like it, that's 100,000 people who hate something.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a lot.

• 13:58Ryan Holiday?

  That's a lot of people. That's like how many people are in one of those stadiums you fly over. Sometimes you visualize that, you're like, fuck, there's 100,000 people who think I suck, right? And to sit with that is really uncomfortable and unpleasant. But, but to be able to put it in statistics is also helpful, right? The Stoics talk about like, like, look, is it possible to go through life and never meet like shitty people? No, right? Certain percentage of the population sucks.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:23Ryan Holiday?

  And so you're like, oh, I just met. One of those people, 20% of the population is X. Okay, so 1 in 5 people is gonna be one. Why, why am I going around surprised that I'm encountering people who suck? Like, it's a statistical certainty. And the same is true for the work you're doing. It's like, hey, like, I took a stand on this. What are the chances that 100% of the people agree with this stand? No, it's like, just the, the country is divided this percentage and this percentage. So before, you know, people even really think about it, this percentage of people just on their face disagree with it. And then you go, okay, that's a lot of people. And then you have to go, do I have the fortitude to sit with the fact

• 15:05Ryan Holiday?

  that this percentage of people, or this sheer number of people, hate my guts now, or, you know, dislike me now, or disagree with me now? Like, that's just how it goes.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  Yep, yeah. And I think focusing on the fact that every time that I say something or do something that that hap, I get that feedback a little bit. I'm like, this is like when I lift weights and I, my body fat goes down, but my number on the scale stays the same. I'm like recomping my audience.

• 15:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  I'm like, these are the people that need the message, because it brings in some people too.

• 15:38Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  And even if that's less people than I lose, I would rather have 50,000 people who are very on board and like dive deep than 200,000 people that are just kind of like, oh, cool jets.

• 15:51Ryan Holiday?

  Well, do you have an audience, or does the audience have you?

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:54Ryan Holiday?

  And it is interesting to me when you watch people who, they were fighter pilots, or they did this thing that was so scary and dangerous. And then they get into another line of work, whether it's politics, or writing, or commentary, or just anything that's like just more public facing. And then they're just like terrified of being disliked.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:14Ryan Holiday?

  You know, you're like, what? What, you were okay being shot at, but you don't want to get angry calls from your constituents? Like, in a way, the sort of physical courage. Can be easier than the moral courage or the, you know, just for the same token, the people who might have an immense amount of moral courage or, you know, don't like jumping in cold water because it's uncomfortable. Like, we're not logical in our abilities to like, sort of handle one form of discomfort or scariness and not another, but there is something kind of crazy about that.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think people, when I was flying for the Thunderbirds, people would be like, "You're so brave, I could never do that." And I'd be like, I would be like, "What a weird thing to say to me. I'm not brave." Like, I've had so much self doubt, I've had so many moments of fear, I just forge ahead anyway. And it was never about what they thought I was being brave for. The physical danger of the maneuvers was not the problem.

• 17:08Ryan Holiday?

  But it's interesting you said that because that is the definition of bravery, though. Like, if you're not afraid.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  That's not brave.

• 17:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And like, if there was some pill you could give someone and it just suppresses all fear and doubt. First off, you wouldn't do that, that'd become extremely dangerous, right? And, and that's why recklessness is, is the sort of vice that Aristotle holds up as the extreme end and that golden mean. But, but it's also like, it would make the thing less impressive in a way, just in the sense that, in the same way that steroids make the accomplishment less impressive. Because you're like, "Oh, it's not really you." I mean, there's part of you in there, but it changes how we understand what you really did.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  For sure. And that's what makes it impressive, right? If we were just fearless and not in danger and not afraid of that at all.

• 17:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Anyone would do it.

• 17:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, if you're not getting over something, it could still be impressive, it's just, we're just not talking about courage as the virtue that's there. Maybe it's discipline or some, some other thing. You're doing something that's hard, that's no question, but it's just, you're not being brave. It's, it's only because it's scary to you and you don't know. Like, if someone could say, "Hey, the outcome, the outcome is a foregone conclusion, you are definitely going to succeed." Well, like, obviously, a lot more people would do it, but then also doing it wouldn't be impressive in the same way and, and it wouldn't require courage as we understand it.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

• 18:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and that's a hard thing to remember while you're doing it, like when it's really fucking hard.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:47Ryan Holiday?

  To go like, oh, this is keeping people out. But it is like if, again, if it, if there wasn't this sort of trough of despair in the middle, if there wasn't this valley that you had to go through, then everyone would do it because the rewards are obvious. Like, why people would want to be on the other side of it, very clear. It's, it's just when you get in the shit of it that you can lose your bearings there. And so what those difficulties do is separate the people who really want it from the people who would just kind of think it would be nice to have.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  For sure. And I think it's one of those careers that people think is sexy. Again, not to reference Top Gun for the third time, but that is such a pop culture phenomenon that has like informed a lot of people's reality of the fighter pilot culture. So much of the job is so unsexy, right? It is stuck in a tiny cockpit for eight hours and going to the bathroom in there and sometimes messing that up. And like, where do I put my snacks to not have those two things overlap? And like, it's just that kind of stuff. And it's like sleep deprivation and sun's in your eye and trying to air refuel. And it's hard in the skill set, but it's also a grind just in like the work that has to happen. It's behind the scenes.

• 20:05Ryan Holiday?

  Bureaucratic shit and the fact that not everyone's nice and that you're not paid that much. Like, there's, if it was all green lights, everyone would do it.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 20:15Ryan Holiday?

  The point is, there's a bunch of red lights and detours and obstacles. And that's, that's why not that many people make it all the way there.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I always laugh when people are like, what's like the behind the scenes of being a Thunderbird pilot? Because they see very tight flight suit aviators, you know, locked in, precision. And I'm like, the number of interviews I did for local media where you fly across country. So you fly four or five hour flight, you land from Las Vegas to Florida.

• 20:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  You get out and there's like local ABC station there, whatever. It's like, tell us about the airshow. And I'm standing there talking on camera and I'm not going to turn around because I've had a piddle pack mishap halfway there. And I'm a 35 year old expert in my field on this pedestal that has pee pants.

• 21:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  I always think of like Adam Sandler, like all the cool kids pee their pants. I was like. If they only knew.

• 21:06Ryan Holiday?

  If it was glamour, if the practice was fun, more people would do it. Right? Like, like game day, you get the rush.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 21:15Ryan Holiday?

  Why people want to be a professional athlete or whatever, but it's, it's, it's all the parts that are not fun. That you have to, in a way, learn to love and enjoy. Otherwise, you just won't do it. Like, the amount of shit you have to go through to be in the position to do the fun part. That's the, I think the ratio of it that people don't really understand. Like, publishing a book is pretty fun.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:41Ryan Holiday?

  You know, but writing is not that fun. Having written is great.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:46Ryan Holiday?

  But it actually is fun to me. Like, I, I've had to get to a place where that I understand that's, that's the part of it that I control. That's the part of it that's not going away. That's the part of it that, you know, separates the amateurs from the pro. I have to go like, no, no, I like writing books, not having books. I like writing books. I don't like, like, being an author is actually now like my least favorite part. I like doing the thing. And the more you like doing the thing, the more you're gonna fucking do the thing.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like that's why most authors don't have, I mean, 14, 50, how many books do you have this a lot?

• 22:21Ryan Holiday?

  I don't know.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Cause you enjoy it.

• 22:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I just, I, I spend a lot of time doing the thing.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:26Ryan Holiday?

  And then like when people ask you, they're like, when people ask for shortcuts, like, there's this famous story.

• 22:34Ryan Holiday?

  A samurai wants to attach himself to this sort of young master, or to this famous master. And he says, you know, how long does it take? And he says, it takes 10 years. And he goes, no, no, I'm gonna like work really hard. I want to do it. Like, I'm really excited about this. And he was like, okay, 20 years. And he's like, what? You know, no, no, you don't understand. And he's like, I wanna, I gotta get this done now. And he's like, okay, 30 years. And the point is like, if you're trying to rush through it, you're missing the whole point. Like, whenever people are like, do you have any tips for speed reading? And it's like, no, the, the point is that it takes a long time and you do a lot of it.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Ryan Holiday?

  That you're trying, that you're looking for the shortcut is what is going to make it take a long time for you.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that some of it is just lived experience, too. It's the reps.

• 23:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, like, I remember on my first book, I had this like list of media that I wanted to do. And the publicist got zero of it, you know? And, you know, 15 years later, I've checked, I've done all of those things. But most of them happened like somewhat recently. And it occurred to me that if I'd gotten it when I wanted it.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:40Ryan Holiday?

  I would have not just, I would have gotten the first one, fucked it up, and then got none of the others. Right? Like, it's actually much better that I didn't get the things that I wanted until I was actually ready for them. But that's so hard, like, we, we think, we think we're this like, once in a lifetime generational talent that should be able to skip these steps. Like, just put me in, coach. And it's like, the coach is like, no, no, you'll be ready in eight years. That's soul crushing, but they've seen you before. They, they know this. And like, that's a very hard thing to say to a 22 year old is like, talk to me in eight years. You're like, eight years, I was a child eight years previous.

• 24:18Ryan Holiday?

  Like, you just can't conceive of the amount of time because you've never done anything that took that amount of time before.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Well, even now, as a 38 year old who's launching their first big book. And very, I'm very goal driven, and so I want to make the New York Times bestseller list.

• 24:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Because who doesn't?

• 24:37Ryan Holiday?

  Sure. It's a measurable thing.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  It is.

• 24:39Ryan Holiday?

  It makes sense you would go there.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Right. And I think it does have an impact on speaking, on just access to things like, right? It's a little bit of a boost for getting your message out in general. But I keep trying to tell myself that the book will have, like, I am doing everything I can to get, you know, pre-sales and all the things you have to do, the marketing of the book. But if I don't hit the New York Times bestseller list, I still have, because of all the work I've done, thousands of people have gotten their eyes on the book that wouldn't have otherwise.

• 25:08Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  And I have to know I did everything I could. And the impact is not contingent on that title.

• 25:16Ryan Holiday?

  No, it's definitely not.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Like, it, that accolade.

• 25:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 25:31Ryan Holiday?

  It was interesting for me. So my, it took, I think, so Stillness is the Key would have been my fifth book or sixth book. I didn't hit the New York Times Bestsellers for a book that I wrote under my own name. I did some ghostwriting in the head, but I didn't hit the Bestsellers under my own name five years in, six years in. But I hit like The Wall Street Journalist, which is a similar list. But it was fascinating to me as I would, as I would go up on stage, people would introduce me as a New York Times bestselling author anyway. And I would go, oh, people don't even fucking know. Like, in my head, this distinction matters. And in my head, getting this thing would be a huge benefit to me. And then you go, actually, people don't even understand. They don't even know. Like, you, you think these things matter. And then that's just because you've never actually taken the time, not you, but all of us.

• 26:16Ryan Holiday?

  We don't take our time to put ourselves actually in the shoes of the people who, who we think are gatekeeping in this way and what they're thinking about. And it's like, no, they don't know. They're not, they don't know the difference. They don't know how this works. They're not thinking about you at all. They're thinking, we have to get someone for this conference. And like, they're not like, well, this F15 pilot is a New York Times bestselling author, and this one is not. And so which one are we gonna go with? That has never happened ever in our head, because it's a thing that seems great. And then there's a part of our ego that wants us. And then we just end up, the problem is, we end up spending a lot of time and energy trying to get something that, if, if it was only upside, it'd be fine. But often, we end up taking our eye off the ball

• 26:59Ryan Holiday?

  to get a thing that doesn't really matter. That's really the problem. It's, it's not that approval doesn't matter. It's that like, as you were seeking this person's approval, you were actually alienating these other people, or you were neglecting this other thing. That's the cost of it that we don't think enough about.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I've thought about that as, you know, I hit the ground as a keynote speaker, and my message really resonated well. And I got such good feedback, and that grew very quickly. But my focus has shifted for the last six months. And I'm like, am I hamstringing myself for like this fall for next spring? And that's how I actually make my money for my business, right? Like, just trying to earn on my advance at this point.

• 27:38Ryan Holiday?

  There are way more New York Times bestselling authors than there are Thunderbird pilots. Like, you already did, you already threaded the narrowest of needles. And then you go, but I also need this other needle that I heard other people were in. Do you know what I mean?

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 27:53Ryan Holiday?

  And it's crazy how we do that to ourselves. And then, yeah, people will spend. It was the first time I hit number one, which was with, what book was it? I guess it was Stillness. So Stillness hits number one, a service prize, very excited. Actually, that was the first time I hit the list at all, was number one, like nine years into my career or something. And then like the next week, Donald Trump Jr. hit it. And then it was revealed that he had bought all of his copies, like that the campaign had just cheated on. And you go, oh, this thing that I thought was so valuable.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:25Ryan Holiday?

  Is a totally meaningless rigged contest that I don't respect the person who bumped me off the list the next week. So why am I patting myself on the back for doing it?

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:37Ryan Holiday?

  And why did I spend so much time trying to do it in the first place?

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, it's not one of those things that just happens, right? It's a lot of time and money and concentrated effort to try to make it happen. A hundred percent. So TBD, but I get like, I get that. And I'm very much preparing myself where it's going to be okay if I, I will be disappointed because I'm a human.

• 28:58Ryan Holiday?

  It's also very easy. There are some things that like, it's only easy to say it doesn't matter after you've done it.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:05Ryan Holiday?

  You know what I mean?

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:06Ryan Holiday?

  Like, it would be wonderful if someone could tell you when you were 20, hey, these things that you think are important are not important. And these things that you don't think are important are actually really important. And it's really not until you spend years of your life chasing the things that are unimportant. Then you achieve them and you realize, oh, it didn't do anything for me. And then meanwhile, you're neglecting these other things. And then you get them or you, you know, you, you work on them and you go, oh, this is what's actually moving. There, you just can't, it falls on deaf ears. It's just like how humans are. I think it's an evolutionary thing. Like if humans could really learn that lesson from other people's experience, we wouldn't have explored these, you know, unknown continents or invented these things or built these.

• 29:51Ryan Holiday?

  Like our ability to deceive ourself as a form of motivation is like, obviously what keeps humanity progressing.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, some positives to it for sure.

• 30:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, yes. Or, or just like whatever drives Elon Musk is at some primal evolutionary delusional level. You know, like if, if you could communicate that away, you would never have done the things. But, but you can't. You have to, it has to hit you. Everyone has to figure it out for themselves. So what's next for you?

• 30:24Speaker 01

  I get asked this all the time and it's one of those things after coming from my whole adult life, 13 plus years, being very clear on like, this is the structure. This is when you promote. This is the path to success. I'm kind of enjoying the

• 30:38Ryan Holiday?

  Just being a person.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  The unexpected. Like I opened my email and I'm like, oh, this cool new opportunity happened. Ryan Holiday replied to my email. Hell yeah. And I want to get this message to the right people. And I think my audience tends to bias towards guys who like airplanes.

• 30:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Naturally, but I think I write for other women who struggle with self doubt and are high performers and get in their own way and do all the things we just talked about. And whatever that looks like, whether that's this book that helps me do it, whether it's getting on bigger stages, whether it's a podcast or just getting that message out there to have a bigger impact. I don't know what that looks like yet.

• 31:17Ryan Holiday?

  Would you run for office?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  I asked, no, not right now. Like everything I see right now in that, it feels so toxic.

• 31:25Ryan Holiday?

  I know. Isn't that the problem?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Like good people.

• 31:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Why would you want?

• 31:28Speaker 01

  I mean, I hope I'm a good person, but like.

• 31:30Ryan Holiday?

  At least you're not. Well, yes, yes. That it's gross to you.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:34Ryan Holiday?

  Is the problem.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Even people I agree with, I'm like, I don't want to do that.

• 31:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Like the game you have to play, I think like the showmanship and the facade you have to put on. I just, that feels very inauthentic to me. And what I love about what I'm doing now is the freedom and the authenticity and the ability to speak my mind and my stories and everything, just very truthfully and openly.

• 31:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  I feel like you can't do that as a politician.

• 31:59Ryan Holiday?

  Well, what's interesting, like the service members are like sort of elite performers. You're a professional athlete effectively, right? You're like a professional lacrosse player or something. Like you're elite in a thing, but you're not, you don't actually control your destiny in a way that like, yeah, someone who is making a hundred million dollars. You don't control where you go, you don't control where you fly. You have, you have just this tiny little window of how you interpret the orders or execute the order. Like, and so I imagine it would be nice for the first time in your life to be like, I want to go here now.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:34Ryan Holiday?

  I don't want to do that. I want to do this. And to just be like, I'm going to decide where I live and what time I wake up and yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, the freedom is the best part. And people are like, why don't you go fly for the airlines? Like the bonus is really good or my friend's a captain. He flies two trips a month and he makes $400,000 a year. And I'm like, it's not worth any monetary amount. Like I make enough to be happy and do the things we want to do and travel and like, I don't need to have a house that's a thousand square feet bigger.

• 33:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  To be a cog in a wheel. And I think people love that job and not to hate on them because all of my friends fly for the airlines.

• 33:12Ryan Holiday?

  No.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  But it just didn't feel fulfilling to me.

• 33:15Ryan Holiday?

  No, it's funny when I talk to professional athletes, like there's this line between the ones who after they retire, like enjoy their life and then the ones who become coaches.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:24Ryan Holiday?

  And there was like, the ones who just enjoy their life cannot understand, like, why would you do? You travel 42 games a year.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:32Ryan Holiday?

  Volun- like you subject yourself to the grind of it. Why, you know? And that period of like, I'm going to do my own thing for a while would probably be nice. That's what putting in your years should allow you to do.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an exciting time. I realize I don't ever have like the Sunday scaries.

• 33:51Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, which is what the fuck do I have to do this week?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, like Sunday night, you're like, oh, man. Even if I like, like my job and I love the people I work with, I still would have that like low level anxiety on Sunday night. Just being like, tomorrow we have this flight and am I as prepared as I should be? And like, who is my student or vice versa? And now it's just like, oh, I get to go speak to this audience and I get to connect with them. And every time I get to hear some really cool stories back from them and. Even if it's hard and I had to change time zones and wake up at 4:00 AM for my body, there's some really tangible reward every time and it's a lot of fun.

• 34:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, autonomy is a wonderful thing.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 34:27Ryan Holiday?

  And there's a lot of very powerful, successful, important people who have zero autonomy because their schedule is down to the minute.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:38Ryan Holiday?

  And like the Stoics talked a lot about this even in ancient Rome. It's like there's this Roman general named Marius and Seneca says, you know, Marius commanded armies, but ambition commanded Marius. Like, because they can't not be, what is the next thing? What am I going to accomplish? Who am I going to be? How do I be the best of this? Or make, you know, that endlessness is its own sort of form of powerlessness.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  And I tend to fall into that trap and I'm with the book.

• 35:10Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  And we'll see what's next. And I think doing it and being like, this is something I want to do and then actually making it happen.

• 35:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Maybe this is the only book I ever write. Maybe it's the first of many. I don't, I honestly don't know.

• 35:22Ryan Holiday?

  Take it where it goes.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm just enjoying the ride and the freedom.

• 35:26Ryan Holiday?

  Good for you. You want to check out some books? I have some fighter pilot books.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yes, I do.

• 35:36Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.