546: The Myth of Being in Control: Marine Corps Doctrine on Command and Control

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Why the best leaders stop trying to control everything. Jocko and Cory break down Marine Corps doctrine on command and control, explaining why decentralized leadership, trust, feedback, and initiative outperform micromanagement in business, combat, and life. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 546 with Kerry Helton and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Kerry. Good evening. An order should not trespass on the providence of the subordinate. It should contain everything which is beyond the independent authority of the subordinate, but nothing more. It should lay stress upon the object to be attained and leave open the means to be employed. That's a little quote right there from US Army Field Regulations from 1905.

• 0:34Jocko Willink?

  1905. So you know, people, they think, oh, well, back in the day, the military, you just told, you just told everyone what to do and they did it. And sure, you can go back to, you know, Napoleonic times, but even then Napoleonic times, they didn't want rope. They wanted the soldiers to be robotic in their movement, but they wanted the people, Napoleon wanted his people to think quick and make things happen. And this, this concept right here, your order shouldn't, shouldn't trespass on the providence of the subordinate. Meaning we want that person to think for themselves. It shouldn't, it shouldn't contain them. It should contain everything which is beyond the independent authority of the subordinate. So look, I'm giving you, hey, if you've got to do this here, you got to ask me if you've got to do that.

• 1:17Jocko Willink?

  This is what I want you to do, but other than that, it's up to you, man. But nothing more. It literally says, but nothing more. It should lay stress upon the object to be attained. So this is what, this is what I want you to get done. But leave open the means to employ. So I don't really care how you do it. This is 1905, 1905.

• 1:39Jocko Willink?

  So we need our troops to make things happen. We need our troops to step up and get things on. This is, this is obviously, this is decentralized command.

• 1:49Jocko Willink?

  When, that being said, when people go make things happen, sometimes they, they do things that we don't expect. And sometimes the things that they do that we don't expect are good. You give somebody some leeway and they go out to make something happen and they do a better job than you could have done yourself. Cause they're on the ground and they're thinking and this, that's the only thing that they're focused on. And most of the time they do something good. Most of the time they do something better than you could have done.

• 2:16Jocko Willink?

  However, sometimes they do things that maybe aren't quite that good. Sometimes they do things that are outside the box and not in a good way that because there is risk with with decentralized command and I always try and explain to people there's risk with decentralized command. Therefore, when you are employing decentralized command, occasionally it's going to bite you. Occasionally, it's going to bite you. It's like going to certain restaurants and getting certain food, like real high spicy food, and occasionally you get bit. You know what I'm saying? Occasionally it goes sideways. It's a very similar thing with decentralized command.

• 2:56Jocko Willink?

  So I was reading through the Marine Corps doctrinal publication six, MCDP six. It's called Command and Control. And like most Marine Corps manuals, which are just outstanding, it had some great points on leadership that not only apply to combat and not only apply to leadership, but they apply to life. And I think this knowledge is the kind of thing that can make us all better. And the manual, which I'm not part of the manual, which I'm not going to cover today, is like a fictional story of a big combat operation that shows some various leadership examples. It's cool. It's good to read. But I'm going to jump into some of the meat of the information, which starts in chapter one.

• 3:42Jocko Willink?

  For some guidance. So, chapter one, Marine Corps doctrinal publication six, Command and Control. How long were you in the Marine Corps for?

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Four years.

• 3:49Jocko Willink?

  Four years. Did you ever see this manual?

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you did?

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was a part of one of the just foundational courses you do as an enlisted guy that you knock off every so often to try to get closer to your promotional cutting score.

• 4:08Jocko Willink?

  The Marine Corps manuals are outstanding. And I actually because warfighting, which is it's one of the best. Pieces of reading a human can do. I mean, I covered it in one of the first podcasts we did early, early, early on, but it's so good. It's so concise. It's so clear. It's so simple. It's so, so straightforward. And I had like a lead on the guy that wrote it. Like there's a dude, he was like a, he was like a major or something and he was just a really smart guy. And he understood the concepts and they, they gave him the, the okay, run with this. And he did just an outstanding job. So I still gotta try and track that because I'd love to sit down with him and, and go through that manual, kind of even the writing process, you know, writing things is,

• 4:54Jocko Willink?

  there's a, there's a process to writing things when you chop it down and you make it clear, but you gotta add that one thing. And then how important is this? And I would just like to see what his process was because it came out freaking dialed. Yeah. And a lot of times in the military, stuff is written by committee. And I can always tell when you get something that's written by, not, not edited by committee because that can happen. You know, hey, if I write it, then you look at it, then your boss looks at it and his boss looks at it. I get it. But a lot of times, you know, you get nine different people working on the whole thing and you end up with a Pontiac Aztec. You know, the Pontiac Aztec? No. Pontiac Aztec is the vehicle that they use in Breaking Bad. Check. But it was a kind of a flop of a vehicle and apparently there was, you know, 19 different designers.

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  And one guy liked this little piece and this other guy liked this little thing and they, when they put it all together, they're like, yo, what is this thing? But it's too late in the car world. They're like, we're making it. So you gotta, when you're writing, if you have something that's good, clear language, which that guy clearly did in war fighting, great manual. But this manual, a similar vein. So let's get into it. This is chapter one. The nature of command and control. And it starts off with a quote from Clausewitz. War is the realm of uncertainty. Three quarters of the factors on which action in war is based are wrapped in a fog of greater or lesser uncertainty. The commander must work in a medium which his eyes cannot see, which his best, best deductive powers cannot always fathom.

• 6:16Jocko Willink?

  And with which, because of constant change, changes, he can rarely become familiar. Now I would love to tell you that that's just a quote about war. But that's a quote about everything in life. I mean, you are always operating, I mean, even human nature. Human nature is a medium that you cannot see with your eyes. I mean, I guess you can see people's emotions, but you can't see what people are thinking. You can't see, in many cases, their ego flare up. You can't see what their emotions are. Again, can you sometimes see that in their face? Sure. But can you always know? Can see some of it. And so, and not to mention what's going on with the market. What's going on with the competition? There's all these things that you can't see. What about your family?

• 6:59Jocko Willink?

  I was going off about this the other day. The amount of factors that come into play for you to decide where to go out for dinner with your wife. If you really broke that down, if you really broke down, my wife and I, Big H and I are going to go out for dinner. She turns to me and says, where are we gonna go? Can you imagine the amount of, the amount of decision factors that fall into that? Well, what about the time two years ago where we went to this one restaurant that I liked that she didn't like and she was in a bad mood for three days? Or what about the fact that she thinks that I am a hard-headed guy and I only want to go to this? What about the financial factors? What are we leaning on money right now? Or we

• 7:43Jocko Willink?

  got a ton of money right now? Or what about how much time we have? Like, do we have a lot of time to go? Hey, but what if she's going on a trip or I'm going on a trip? We're not going to see each other? There's so many things. What about the dog? What are we doing with the dogs? We want to bring the dog with us? We're going to dog? Like, just to go to dinner with your wife. So when you're starting to talk about more complex decisions, which basically almost all other decisions are more complex than that, they're all get these factors upon factors upon factors that you're trying to figure out what the hell is going on and make a decision. And war is kind of the ultimate of those, because now you got people trying to kill you. So the stakes are high. But regardless of what you're doing, you don't,

• 8:26Jocko Willink?

  you're, we are all operating in a realm of uncertainty, all of us, varying levels.

• 8:33Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 8:36Jocko Willink?

  Skip ahead a little bit. How important is command and control? No single activity in war is more important than command and control. Command and control by itself will not drive home a single attack against an enemy force. It will not destroy a single enemy target. It will not affect a single emergency resupply. Yet, none of these essential warfighting activities or any others would be possible without effective command and control. Without command and control, campaigns, battles, and organized engagements are impossible. Military units denigrate, degenerate into mobs, and subordination of military force to policy is replaced by random violence.

• 9:16Jocko Willink?

  In short, command and control is essential to all military operations and activities. And again, apply this to your company. Apply this to your family. You're going to go to the supermarket with the fam. This could very easily, what's the word they use? Degenerate into chaos. If you don't have some command and control. Continuing on with command and control. The countless activities a military force must perform gain purpose and direction. Done well, command and control adds to our strength. Done poorly, it invites disaster even against a weaker enemy. Command and control helps commanders make the most of what they have. People, information, material, and often most important of all time.

• 10:02Jocko Willink?

  Hmm. Time, the most important factor. When I came up with the

• 10:10Jocko Willink?

  extreme ownership leadership loop, the first thing in that loop is time. Because that's the, that's the thing we have the least control over in, in the world. The, the, the talk, the clock is ticking. And you need to assess, how much time do I have? And as a leader, you need to assess, how can I best utilize this time that we have?

• 10:33Jocko Willink?

  In the broadest sense, command and control applies far beyond military forces and military operations, any, here we go, any system comprising multiple interacting elements from societies to sports teams to any living organism, needs some form of command and control. So the living organism, that would be like your hormonal responses and stuff like that, that makes your body react to things. Simply put, command and control in some form or another is essential to survival and success in any competitive or cooperative enterprise. Command and control is a fundamental requirement for life and growth, survival and success for any system.

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. And it's funny, some of you might be hearing these words for the first time. Some of you guys might be thinking about this for the first time. Now, now as you hear it, you might start to go, oh, oh yeah, that's happened to me, or I have done that before, kind of unknowingly, or maybe I haven't done that before and I should be doing it. So recognizing what's happening is very important. It's like when you watch the movie The Sixth Sense, you've seen this movie?

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:43Jocko Willink?

  When you watch it the first time, things are going on, you don't really, it doesn't really mean much. But once you get to the end, it all makes sense looking back. And now when you watch it again, you see even more things that are happening. So this is very important, because when we understand things at a greater level, when we see the bigger picture, all of a sudden, things start to make more sense. The movie The Sixth Sense makes more sense when you watch it the second time. Because all these little things that you missed the first time, you notice them, but they don't, there's no context. Context is important part of the world, having context.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Or they read as something different than you thought they were, right?

• 12:23Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Now with that little piece of knowledge, you understand, oh, that wasn't him being cold to the other person. He wasn't there. You know what I mean? So it's how we may misinterpret things without that additional piece of information.

• 12:35Jocko Willink?

  Our perception can be totally wrong. We got a question that I read last night for the underground that we're going to be discussing, but a guy was talking about a, what is it? A sex offender moved into his neighborhood. And he was asking, hey,

• 12:53Jocko Willink?

  I saw the guy, I have whatever, he's got like two daughters and a son or something like that, of the age that this guy is, was arrested for and went to jail for. And he says, you know, I walked by him and I ignored him. But I know that that's not the right thing to do as a Christian. And I was like, mm, no, hundred percent, ignore. And you know, there's a whole bunch of varying things we could talk about, and we'll, we'll talk about it on the underground, but you, there's no question that you are totally good to go to ignore, because you want that person, that individual to recognize he should not come near you or your family in any way, shape or form. And we could, we'll, we could discuss, does that mean you approach him? Does that mean you talk to him?

• 13:37Jocko Willink?

  Say, hey, listen, I know who you are, I know what you did. If I see you anywhere near my family, you will be in trouble, trust me. Like, the only thing, which is probably a good move, but you gotta remember, when you interact with people, all of a sudden you have a relationship with them. You've opened a door. You've opened a door. Yeah. So, depending on that individual's personality, it, that might not be the right move. So I wouldn't make a jump like that out of the gate. I would do like full ignore, because when I full ignore, you realize like, I'm not even a human. You know what I mean? I don't even, I'm not even a human being. I don't look at you and I don't acknowledge you, your existence. That is not a human thing to do. I'm not a human, so stay the fuck away from me and my family.

• 14:23Jocko Willink?

  Is where we're going. Now, sometimes, again, when you, when you have any interaction, if I have, even if my interaction is like, hey, you better stay away from me and my family. That's a human being. That's a human interaction. And some people see that as a little way in. So, uh, you're not going to see me as a human. That's what we're doing. My point in saying all this out, the context of what's going on. And where, what are we doing and how, how, what does that behavior look like? So, ah, yeah, six cents, get some.

• 14:54Jocko Willink?

  Next phase here. What is command and control? We often think of command and control as a distinct and specialized function like logistics, intelligence, electronic warfare, or administration with its own peculiar methods, considerations, and vocabulary, and occurring independently of other functions. But in fact, command and control encompasses all military functions and operations, giving them meaning and harmonizing them into a meaningful whole. Everything's working together.

• 15:22Jocko Willink?

  This is a common discrepancy that we run into with businesses at Echelon Front, where they are not all working together. You know, here they're talking logistics, intelligence, electronic warfare, administration. In the, in the business world, we have marketing, we have operations, we have sales, we have legal, we have HR. So we have all these components as well. And if they get separated, there's a problem. And one of the things that unifies them is command and control, harmonizing them into a meaningful whole. That's what we're heading for. Command and control is the means by which a commander recognizes what needs to be done and sees to it that appropriate actions are taken. Cool.

• 16:08Jocko Willink?

  And it kind of goes into this thing about the various types of, the various forms it can take. It can be a conscious command decision. It can be immediate action drills. Immediate action drills are command and control. Like, hey, I train you, Kerry, as a mortar man. And when this happens, here's your reaction with your mortar team. Now, I don't have to say anything, but it's still a part of command and control. Uh, it talks about rules-based procedures. It talks about even, even technical things like computer weapon systems are a form of command and control, because they can be pre-programmed to do things in certain scenarios. And then there's some that are only can be executed by people that have experience

• 16:54Jocko Willink?

  to devise a tactic and make a decision, right? So there's a whole bunch of different ways that command and control can be implemented. And then it goes on to say, sometimes command and control occurs concurrently with the action being taken. Real time guidance. And sometimes it can happen beforehand.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  That's what a plan is, right? So, so command and control is a lot broader than I think sometimes people understand or think of it as. And then it says this commander's intent, a commander's intent expressed clearly before the evolution begins is an essential part of command and control. Likewise, analysis after the fact, which ascertains the results and lessons of the action and so informs future actions contribute to command and control. Yeah, the commander's intent, the most powerful part of a brief in the military, it's supposed to be the most powerful part, supposed to tell the troops what we're trying to accomplish. This is my overall intent.

• 17:56Jocko Willink?

  And if I don't give you any other part of the brief and you have the commander's intent, you should be able to go out and execute. I didn't tell you what time, I didn't tell you what weapons to bring, I didn't tell you how many people to take, I didn't tell you where to approach the target, I didn't tell you any of that. I just gave you, hey, this is, this is the target we need secure. And we need it done by this time. And if I tell you that,

• 18:21Jocko Willink?

  you can make it happen. That's why commander's intent is so important. And yet it gets left off a lot. Cause people think, well, if I tell Kerry, hey, here's, here's the target I want you to take, here's who I want you to take, here's how I want you to hit it, here's the weapons I want you to use, here's the approach I want you, if I tell you all that stuff, I think, oh, well, now he's gonna go do it. But when that plan gets tripped up for whatever reason, down vehicle,

• 18:45Jocko Willink?

  enemy security force you didn't anticipate, weather problems, like there's all kinds of problems that can come up that interfere with this detailed plan that I gave you. And when that happens, you can't execute anymore. Cause the plan got derailed. But if you knew what it was you were trying to do, what that intent was overall, you could make it happen, you'd figure out another way.

• 19:08Jocko Willink?

  Why it's so important.

• 19:15Jocko Willink?

  Some forms of command and control are procedural. Others deal with overall conduct of military operations. Large or small scale involving formulating concepts, deploying forces, allocating resources, supervising, and so on. And again, I work with all kinds of different companies, including my own companies. And like, there you go. This is like CEO, C-suite level stuff, right? Formulating concepts, deploying forces, allocating resources. Where are we going to spend this marketing money? Where are we going to spend this other capital that we have right now? Big parts of capital. Like, that's, uh, that's what we're doing at the strategic level. And that is part of command and control.

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  And the overall conduct of military operations is our primary concern in this manual, unless otherwise specified. This is, uh, this is what we're talking about. So it kind of explains that this applies to everything, but they're talking about warfare. Cause you know what? It's the Marine Corps. That's their business. Their business is war. Since war is a conflict between opposing wills, we can measure the effectiveness of command and control only in relation to the enemy as a practical matter. Therefore, effective command and control involves protecting our own command and control activities against the, against enemy interference and actively monitoring, manipulating, and disrupting the enemy's command and control activities.

• 20:39Jocko Willink?

  That's a, that's an interesting target, right? Our target is not this building. Our target is not this bridge. Our target is not this piece of terrain. Our targeting isn't even securing the populace. Our target is interfering with the enemy's command and control activities. It's interesting. I did that kind of stuff. We, we, we would have that kind of stuff. Interfere with the, with their freedom of maneuver, interfere with their communication systems, interfere with their financing. That's all command and control that you're trying to interfere with, which is a more strategic target than, hey, we're going to go open up this bridge or shut down this bridge or take this one individual, unless that individual is very senior.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  There was also a document we covered a while back that was about like sabotage, you know, and it was very much these things. It was like frustrating all these little command and control.

• 21:38Jocko Willink?

  That's the, that's the, that's a CIA document that we covered.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  That's what it was.

• 21:41Jocko Willink?

  Simple sabotage.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:43Jocko Willink?

  And, and what's funny is I work with businesses that that's what they have going on. Literally what the CIA would tell, um, let's call them, let's call them act actors inside like spies inside of a foreign country. Oh, we got a spy inside of a foreign country. They're making a bunch of military stuff. Here's some things you can do to disrupt it. Ask a bunch of questions in a meeting, hold a bunch of meetings that make no sense. Slow down the production. Like there's all these things that happens all the time in regular businesses. And yeah, so that's command and control getting jammed up by bad actors slash spies. So for sure, that is an attack on command and control.

• 22:27Jocko Willink?

  A subtle attack, but damn, it's draining one. Think about all the social media that's, that's just inbound into everyone's head right now. Coming from all sides. And your algorithm, by the way, gets exponentially evolved in a direction that you are already a little bit biased towards. That's what's happening. So the information warfare that's getting to you, you have no idea what's happening. You have no idea what's happening. It's crazy. So we gotta be careful of that.

• 23:05Jocko Willink?

  What is the base next? What is the basis of command and control? The basis for over, the basis for all command and control is the authority vested in a commander over subordinates. Authority derives from two sources.

• 23:17Jocko Willink?

  Official authority is a function of rank and position and is bestowed by an organization and by law. And boy, do some people like that kind of authority. Personal authority is a function of personal influence and derives from such factors as experience, reputation, skill, character, and personal example. It is bestowed by the other members of the organization. Official authority provides the power to act, but is rarely enough. Most effective commanders also possess a high degree of personal authority. So this is kind of the paragraph. When I read this, I was like, I'm gonna put this on the podcast

• 24:00Jocko Willink?

  because so many people don't understand this. So many people think that they have the rank and position and therefore they're in charge. And they don't have the personal authority. They don't have the reputation. They don't have the skill. They don't have the character. And the other members of the team have not designated them as the leader in their head. Sure, you can show me on paper all day long. You got the rank. You got the whatever. But I don't care. I don't respect you. You don't have the character. You're not setting a good personal example. All those things just goes out the window. So where are you at? Where are you at? And by the way, one of the, if you're sitting here nodding your head right now and going, you know, I think I got those things. You probably don't.

• 24:44Jocko Willink?

  If you're not a little bit paranoid thinking, man, I hope I'm setting a good enough example. Man, I hope my reputation is solid. I, I, I hope my character is, is strong enough that people respect it. If you're like, no, my character is great. My reputation's awesome. And I set a great example. If that's where you're at, you're probably in trouble. You're probably in trouble. You're walking around thinking you got a bunch of leadership capital. You don't. You don't.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  And it should, it should also be a little validating for those frontline individual contributors too, right? Because the, the authority doesn't necessarily come from the rank, title, or position. You that has personal relationships and, and authority amongst your peers, that, that gives you power. It gives you authority as well.

• 25:30Jocko Willink?

  100%. And this was a

• 25:34Jocko Willink?

  What was I just call this? It was very obvious, it became very obvious to me. So I was running trade at, you know, you got platoons coming through. And at first, I thought, well, you know, either the platoon chief or the platoon commander will be good to go and they'll kind of be like the leader. And then I was like, well, because that didn't always happen. But we still have a good platoon. Why do you still have a good platoon? Oh, well, the LPO is a super stud. And then sometimes you, or the assistant platoon commander is a super stud. So you still got a strong platoon. Sometimes you'd get, we call those the top four. So the platoon commander, the platoon chief, the assistant platoon commander and the leading petty officer. We would call those in a platoon, the top four.

• 26:16Jocko Willink?

  Some, and if you, if you have a strong one in there, that's egos under check, right? Because sometimes you can have some of the strong, but their ego is out of control and they ruin everything. But if you have one of those guys, one of the top four strong, I was like, oh yeah, this is solid platoon. But eventually I realized if you just had what you just said, a dude in the E5 mafia that had this kind of personal authority. And an important component is you, if you had that and then you had the top four that were humble enough to recognize that this dog, this E dog was going to make shit happen. And, and give him the leeway to make it happen, you'd be good to go. You have a great platoon. A great platoon with a E5 gangster. That was just running things. That could happen all day long.

• 27:01Jocko Willink?

  Now, if you had a platoon OIC, you're a platoon chief, oh, that, that guy, I've been in longer than, then you're going to have problems. You're going to get rebellion. You're going to have issues. But you're a hundred percent right. If you have that personal authority and you're respected and you have a good reputation and you have good experience and you have strong character and you're skilled and you set a good personal example. That right there, you're, you can, you can, you can do all kinds of leadership inside of an organization, regardless of where you are in the chain of command.

• 27:33Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, when you just have rank and you don't have any of those things I just talked about, well, first of all, you should go about trying to earn them, which takes time. But you should be actively trying to earn them and you should recognize that these are difficult things to earn.

• 27:48Jocko Willink?

  But if you think you can just flex your official authority, you're wrong. I mean, you're right to an extent. Can run around yell and scream and make people, force people to do what you want them to do. Force them to follow your little plan. Don't recommend it. It won't last long.

• 28:08Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, responsibility or accountability for results is a natural corollary of authority. Where there is authority, there must be responsibility in like measure. Which again, that's why when you have a junior person that's running things, they also take ownership. They, they might not be technically responsible, but hey, boss, that's on me. Conversely, where individuals have responsibility for achieving results, they must also have the authority to initiate the necessary actions.

• 28:37Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on.

• 28:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's a, that's an interesting one because what they're saying is like, hey, if I'm in charge of this project, then I need to have the authority to tell Kerry to do this thing, right?

• 28:51Jocko Willink?

  And that is true to an extent. I will tell you, and there's many examples of this, that

• 28:59Jocko Willink?

  if that's what you need to be successful, it's going to be problematic in the long run. If you need this kind of organizational authority, official authority in order to get people on board with your program, it's going to be a problem in the long run. There's nothing more impressive to me than someone that goes, oh yeah, I'll roll and take over that project. Well, you're actually going to be reporting to the guy that's been failing. That's cool. I'll figure it out. Hundred percent. And there's a lot of people that will, if they're not working for me, I'm up. I can't take over for that. You know what I mean? That's, that's weak, honestly. And I see where people, I understand. But when someone nods their head and goes, yeah, I got it. Yep. Cool. Oh, you, oh, you want me to go work for

• 29:41Jocko Willink?

  Kerry? And he's, the project is failing right now? You want me to go in there and get it straightened out? Cool. I got it. But you're, you're still going to work for Kerry? Yeah, that's cool. It's no factor. It's no factor. We'll, we'll make it happen. As, I need the authority. I need the authority. I need to be, I need to outrank Kerry if you want me to get this problem fixed. And listen, I get it. If Kerry's a, like a real arrogant asshole himself, and I come in with, hey, you know, here's, this might work better. And you shut up. I'm the guy in charge. Okay, we might have some problems. But even that, I'm gonna, I'm gonna at least gather that information. I'm not just gonna say, well, no, I need to, okay, cool. Let me figure out what, what's Kerry pissed about? Kerry might be pissed about some legitimate stuff. Maybe the guy that was working for him, he had to be an authoritarian because the guy was a knucklehead. And that's why you got

• 30:25Jocko Willink?

  me now. Okay, I'm rolling in there. We'll get it handled.

• 30:31Jocko Willink?

  Next, and this is another kind of traditional debate. What is the relationship between command and control? The traditional view of command and control sees command and control as operating in the same direction from the top of the organization toward the bottom. Again, this is the traditional view, not the correct view, the traditional view. Commanders impose control on those under their command.

• 31:00Jocko Willink?

  Commanders are in control of their subordinates and subordinates are under control of their commanders. And again, I'm gonna come point this out again. This is the United States Marine Corps. Devil dogs, right? The Marine Corps, tell me about the Marine Corps rank structure. When you are A corporal and you are interacting with a Lance Corporal, how's that going down?

• 31:22Speaker 01

  There is zero room for misinterpretation as to who is the higher rank or senior, I will say, because even amongst, even amongst the same grade, you've got the senior Lance Corporal on deck.

• 31:34Jocko Willink?

  And that's a timing grade?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:36Jocko Willink?

  This is timing grade?

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, 100%.

• 31:38Jocko Willink?

  And, and how long, if you and I showed up were to stand watch and you and I are both corporals, how, how long does it take before, you know, we have to establish who's the senior Lance Corporal?

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Immediately.

• 31:52Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, immediately. And, and that's, you know, that, that's just ingrained in the Marine Corps. You know, there is, there is the chain of command.

• 32:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  And you fall somewhere in that and we're going to establish that, that hierarchy out of the game.

• 32:06Jocko Willink?

  This is what we're doing. That's why I'm pointing this out. I don't know. I'm not sure if there is an organization that has a more clear cut chain of command than the Marine Corps. I'm not sure. The Army, certain, certain units in the Army, like, like Rangers, they, they, they're in that, in that zone as well. At least the ones I've seen and worked with. But it is as tight as it gets. And what's interesting about that is that they are calling that here. First of all, that's, that, that doesn't, that, that undermines the idea of, of official authority, right? It's like, hey, bro, you can be outrank me all day long, but if you don't have that respect

• 32:51Jocko Willink?

  and you don't have that skill, you don't have that experience, you don't set the right example, doesn't matter. That's what the Marine Corps is saying right here. As, as strict as they are, even they have to admit that that's not enough.

• 33:04Jocko Willink?

  And now they're calling out the traditional view, which is, hey, I'm the commander, I'm in control. And you're subordinate, so therefore you're under my control.

• 33:15Jocko Willink?

  But they don't believe that. The United States Marine Corps doesn't believe that. I'm going to tell you, they literally say that. We suggest, back to the book, we suggest a different and more dynamic view of command and control, which sees the command as the exercise of authority and control as feedback about the effects of action taken. So they're using the term, they're, they're almost replacing the word control with the word feedback. So the commander commands by deciding what needs to be done and by taking and by directing or influencing the conduct of others. Control takes the form of feedback, the continuous flow of information about the unfolding situation

• 33:58Jocko Willink?

  that returns to the commander, which allows the commander to adjust and modify command action as needed.

• 34:07Jocko Willink?

  So the commander's going to put out the word and then he's going to keep his ears open for feedback and then he's going to adjust his word, adjust and modify command. Feedback indicates the difference between the goals and the situation as it exists. Feedback may come from any direction and in any form. Intelligence about how the enemy is reacting, information about the status of subordinate or adjacent units, or revised guidance from above based on develop, based on developments. One thing they don't listen to, which they should. Feedback is also just what your boys are telling you what's going on.

• 34:39Jocko Willink?

  That's what, that's what I'm looking for. Like, sure, we're going to get into they, what do they say? They say intelligence, they say information about status, and I guess technically all those things would be coming from your subordinate. So I guess we're good. I won't have to write the Marine Corps to get this thing changed. Feedback is the mechanism that allows commanders to adapt to changing circumstances, to exploit fleeting opportunities, respond to developing problems, modify schemes or redirect efforts. So yes, there I, I spoke too soon. All this stuff is what your subordinate is telling you. In this way, feedback controls subsequent command action.

• 35:18Jocko Willink?

  So we could be saying command and feedback. Cause the, the control is the feedback. In such a command and control system, control is not strictly something that seniors impose on subordinates, rather the entire system comes under control based on feedback about the changing situation. So if you're in a leadership position, you better have open ears and an open mind to listen to that feedback that you're getting, because that's the true control.

• 35:49Jocko Willink?

  Command and control is thus an interactive process involving all the parts of the system and working in all directions. The result is a mutually supporting system of give and take in which complementary commanding and controlling forces interact to ensure that the force as a whole can adapt continuously to changing requirements.

• 36:12Jocko Willink?

  So this really upends the traditional idea. And they have a graph in here that shows like the bad version. They call it the typical view of command and control. And it's just the commander at the top and just word is going down. Both the command and control are both going down. And in the proper one, they show the commander at the top and they show command going down, but then they say the control going back up. And this is what we should be looking for. This is, this is how you really establish control by listening, listening to feedback.

• 36:47Jocko Willink?

  Says here, what does it mean to be in control? The typical understanding of effective command and control is that someone is, that is, someone is in command should also be in control. Typically, we think of a strong coercive type of command control as sort of push button control by which those in control dictate the actions of others and those under control respond promptly and precisely as a chess player controls the movements of the chess pieces.

• 37:18Jocko Willink?

  Cause those chess pieces do exactly what you tell them to do. You move them from G4 to H9. Going out on a limb there. I don't even know if it goes to H.

• 37:31Jocko Willink?

  But given the nature of war, can commanders control their forces with anything even resembling the omnipotence of a chess player? We might say that a gunner is in control of a weapon system, or a pilot is in control of an aircraft, but is a flight leader really directly in control of how the other pilots fly their aircraft? Is a senior commander really in control of the squads of Marines actually engaging the enemy, especially on a modern battlefield on which units and individuals will often be widely dispersed even to the point of isolation? Those are some rhetorical questions. Clearly not.

• 38:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you control your aircraft, but you don't control the other pilot in the other aircraft. Yeah, you control your machine gun, but you, you, if you're a, if you're a leader, you can't control exactly what the machine gunner is gonna do. You might think you can, but you can't. And you probably can for six seconds in a gunfight, but that's not gonna last. And eventually that guy's gonna have to think and make decisions and give you feedback. We are also fond of saying that commanders should be in control of the situation, or that the situation is under control. The worst thing that can happen to a commander is to lose control of the situation. But are the terrain and weather under the commander's control? Are commanders even remotely in control of what the enemy does?

• 38:59Jocko Willink?

  Good commanders may sometimes anticipate the enemy's actions and may even influence the enemy's actions by seizing the initiative and forcing the enemy to react. But it is a delusion to believe that we can truly be in control of the enemy or the situation. And this is a very important thing to remember. It's a very important thing to remember because so much of life is not in your control. And, and look, there is a lot of life we can control. There's a lot of things we can take ownership of, but there are certainly things that we cannot take ownership of. There are certainly things that we cannot control. And how do you feel about that? And what does it do to you? What does it do to your personality?

• 39:44Jocko Willink?

  What does it do to your ego? What does it do to your emotions?

• 39:49Jocko Willink?

  Can be very problematic. It can disrupt people's whole pattern of thought.

• 39:56Jocko Willink?

  When they lose control of something. Go completely sideways. This is why. You know, the um, kind of the stereotypical military leader. That has everything highly disciplined and organized and people are gonna do what I say and fly off the handle when things aren't going my way. Those people, generally speaking, are not good in combat. Generally speaking, they're not good in combat.

• 40:22Jocko Willink?

  It's combat is too crazy for them. They can't handle it. Like. I'm not saying you should be, uh.

• 40:31Jocko Willink?

  You know, when you walk into someone's office. And everything is like perfectly. Set up.

• 40:41Jocko Willink?

  And there's not, uh, no, nothing out of place, right? It's kind of like you ever go into someone's house and the term is it doesn't look like it's lived in. Right? Hey, it doesn't even look like someone lives here.

• 40:53Jocko Willink?

  Or a gym, like you go to a gym and it doesn't look like anyone uses the gym, like if there's not some chalk on the floor, I'm suspect. But, and again, this is, of course, there's examples of people that are, uh, very neat. But if you have someone that's obsessively neat. And all of a sudden, things are not neat. Combat is not neat. Business is not neat. And if that disrupts your. Chain of thought, it can be very problematic. So we have to be careful.

• 41:25Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on. The truth is that, given the nature of war, it is a delusion to think that we can control with any sort of certitude or precision. And the further removed commanders are from the Marines actually engaging the enemy, the less direct control they have over their actions. We must keep in mind that war is at base. A human endeavor. In war, unlike chess, pieces. Consist of human beings, all reacting to the situation as it pertains to each one separately, each trying to survive, each prone to making mistakes. And each subject to the vagaries of human nature.

• 42:08Jocko Willink?

  We could not get people to act like mindless robots even if we wanted to. And by the way, we shouldn't want to.

• 42:16Jocko Willink?

  We shouldn't want to because the robots cannot think.

• 42:24Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, this is funny with AI right now, you know, like, how many prompts does it take to get the damn thing to do what you actually wanted it to do? I got into an argument with, um, which one is on Microsoft? Which one is on Microsoft? Copilot. Check. Copilot. So I had been sent something, a document, and I wanted to put the document, it was in a PDF. I put the document into Word, and I haven't really used the AI yet. So, and I just, when I, when I copied the text from the PDF, I put it into this Word document. And it was all kind of jumbled up.

• 43:06Jocko Willink?

  You know, the, the font and the, it was, it was a bulleted list. So it was all, and I, I said, oh, let me try this copilot thing. And I said, hey, uh, you know, make this into a bulleted list. And then everything had a bullet. And I said, well, make it into a bulleted list and the things that are bigger make them, you know, the title, boom. And then there was a blue shading on all the subheadings. And I said, remove the blue shading from the subheadings.

• 43:40Jocko Willink?

  And it fought. And then it said, there, I moved it. And I said, no, you didn't. And it said, I'll do it again. And I said, do it. And it tried to, and it couldn't do it, and it couldn't do it, and it couldn't do it. Any six-year-old human would have understood what I was talking about and would have made a good decision. But the AI was, was letting me down. I finally had to just go in and change it myself manually. It thought it was doing it.

• 44:07Jocko Willink?

  So, so if I tell Kerry, if I tell Corporal Kerry to take his fire team and go take out that machine gun nest, charge up that hill and take out that machine gun nest. And as soon as you put your heads up from the foxhole, you guys are under withering enemy fire. I don't want you to continue. I want you to come up with a different plan. I don't want you to just stand up and in whatever eight seconds, you're all dead. I want you to go, oh, too much fire. We need to do something else. We need to set some, let's get some close air support on them. Let's put down some covering fire. Let's maneuver around to the flank, but I want you to think.

• 44:52Jocko Willink?

  So we don't want people to act like mindless robots. We're not good enough at giving them the correct prompt, prompt to make things happen. I mean, we can't even, I couldn't even do it with my damn word processor. You know what I'm saying? And now you want me to do this on the battlefield? Can you imagine the kind of stupid shit that would be going out on the battlefield? If you're trying to, they were just following the exact orders that you had? No, it doesn't work. Things are too dynamic. So you gotta be careful with that kind of thing. And then to close out this little section and this topic for the day.

• 45:31Jocko Willink?

  It says, given the nature of war, the remarkable, the remarkable thing is not that commanders cannot be thoroughly in control, but rather that they can achieve much influence at all. We should accept that the proper object of command and control is not to be thoroughly and precise in control. This is such a good lesson to learn. I'll say it again. We should accept that the proper object of command and control is not to be thoroughly and precisely in control.

• 46:11Jocko Willink?

  The turbulence of modern war suggests we need a looser form of influence. Something more akin to the willing cooperation of a basketball team than to the omnipotent direction of the chess player.

• 46:26Jocko Willink?

  And this is something, I have a jujitsu comparison to this. I, we have a, I had a guy which used to train with who's a big and strong and really good at jujitsu. And if I got top position on him and he, he could basically just roll, he would just basically be able to roll me over. He would just grab a hold of something and when he turned, I would just go with him. He was just too big and strong. And what I realized is when he wanted to move,

• 46:58Jocko Willink?

  instead of me stopping him from moving, I needed to let him move, let him move. Cause if he turns to his stomach, if I, if I hang on to him and he turns to his stomach, I'm now on the bottom. He, he could move me when I held on to him. So what you have to do is you have to let him go a little bit. And then he turns to his stomach, turns to his side, I'm still on top. I'm still in the dominant position. And this is very similar with leadership. If you try and hang on too tight, you're going to end up in a bad scenario. You're going to end up losing control of what you are trying to control. By the way, because in leadership, if I'm hanging on that tight to one thing, there's a bunch of other things that are happening that I'm not paying attention to.

• 47:41Jocko Willink?

  So that's why we have to do something more akin to the willing cooperation of a basketball team than to the omnipotent direction of the chess player. That provides the necessary guidance in uncertain, disorderly, disorderly time competitive environment without stifling the initiatives of subordinates. That's what we're trying to do. Got to give people room. Hey, is there a risk when you're doing this? Yeah, there's absolutely a risk. There's absolutely a risk when you're doing this kind of thing, but

• 48:16Jocko Willink?

  is the risk outweigh the reward? No, the rewards are, are way superior, way superior. Yeah. And you're gonna, the, the ball's going to get dropped sometime. Things are going to go sideways from time to time. And by the way, if things start going sideways too much in one particular avenue, you're going to have to get into that avenue a little bit. It's no big deal.

• 48:38Jocko Willink?

  But this,

• 48:42Jocko Willink?

  just like war isn't something that you can't completely control. Life is the exact same way. There, there's just so many variables, so many things that are impossible to predict.

• 48:53Jocko Willink?

  And that being said, there is one thing that you can't control.

• 48:58Jocko Willink?

  And that's you.

• 49:01Jocko Willink?

  What you do, how you behave, how you respond when things go wrong, or how you respond when things go right.

• 49:12Jocko Willink?

  But if you try and hang on

• 49:16Jocko Willink?

  to every detail, and you try and hang on and micromanage the world,

• 49:23Jocko Willink?

  you fail. You'll fail. It gives you a little bit of comfort. A little bit of comfort in micromanage. You ever had the comfort of micromanagement? You ever felt that?

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:33Jocko Willink?

  You'd be like, you got it.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  There's a pull to it. In fact, you know, where you kind of feel like, oh, you know, my feedback is necessary and critical here and valued and, you know, it's a trap.

• 49:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's a big trap. The one of the toughest traps about it is that it's successful at first. You know, it's like, it's a win. Because the things went the way I wanted them to go. And you get sucked into that trap where, oh, I guess what? I'm the my direct involvement is the reason for success.

• 50:16Jocko Willink?

  And then you got to figure, okay, how many things can you be directly involved with? And you know, there's a, there's a point that I make. I was talking about this at the last muster.

• 50:27Jocko Willink?

  You know, you, the, a fire team is four or five guys, right? You can directly control four or five guys. There's a reason that a fire team is four or five guys. Because it takes me very little leadership to control four or five guys because you as a machine gunner, if I'm your fire team leader, I can literally grab you and put you where I need you. And if the grenadier is next to you and the rifleman, I can, I can physically, directly put you guys where I need you to be.

• 50:57Jocko Willink?

  As soon as I'm in, as soon as I'm a squad leader, bro, there's a couple of guys that are out of my reach and they're out of my voice. But I could barely yell, said squad, you can kind of talk to a squad, you can, in a gunfight, not so much, but you might be able to catch the attention of the guys you can, once you get to a platoon, your, your ability to directly control things, it approaches zero very quickly. The difference between fire team and platoon, you, you approach zero direct control. Because you can only, if you're a platoon leader, you can only get to three or four guys. You can't get, so what you have to use, what you have to use is leadership. That's what you have to, you have to lead through leadership. You can't

• 51:41Jocko Willink?

  lead through direct control. And so when you're young and you're in charge of a fire team, what you learn is direct control. That's not the right lesson. You, it's good that you're learning the tactics, like, okay, I should put my machine gun here, I should put my rifle in here, like, it's good that you're learning where to place people. But you're not learning how to lead yet. You're not learning, you're learning the fundamental basic of leadership, which is barely even leadership. You're more just a, you're more a director. And then now, a good fire team leader, he's gonna have to do a lot less. Good fire team leader, he says, hey, we're going north and the fire team gets in position. Pretty good positions are like 80%

• 52:23Jocko Willink?

  right. Maybe adjust this guy's field of fire a little bit, but we're good. You got a platoon? You can't do that anymore. You have to use true leadership. So if you continue to try and lead by positioning each person in a platoon, it, you're, you're dead. Not only are you not going to be capable of doing it, but since you haven't allowed your troops to grow, they're not thinking for themselves. And so when you tell, when you've got a robot that only responds to what you tell it to do, and then you don't tell it to do anything, because there's nine, there's 20 other people that you're trying to direct, they're not doing anything, not going anywhere. It's a failure.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Or, or the other side of the coin, once you get those reps in of micromanaging and that person expects you to micromanage them now, now when something does go wrong, that person's coming to you. And now they need you to approve or give direction or whatever. And that's, and then you multiply that by four or five guys and or by 12, you know, now you, you have cursed yourself with being inundated with questions and hey, I need your feedback or I need you in, and now that's your job.

• 53:35Jocko Willink?

  I told many task unit commanders,

• 53:40Jocko Willink?

  you know, coming back from just a big disaster out training in land warfare or, or urban combat training scenarios, come back and say, you know, total chaos, total confusion. And, and it's all the direct result of micromanagement. Like they're, they, they would have their platoon trained up or their platoons trained up to where they only respond to being told what to do. And it would just fall apart through the everything that we've just said. But I would tell these guys, like, imagine if all of your fire team leaders were doing something smart.

• 54:20Jocko Willink?

  And were heading in the direction that you wanted them to head. Just imagine that.

• 54:26Jocko Willink?

  Just imagine that all your fire team leaders were doing something smart that was heading in the direction that you wanted them to head. Because right now, you're telling them, hold that door. Hey, you guys punch across the street. They'll do that. That one fire team's going to hold the door. The other fire team's going to punch across the street. But now what's the other six fire teams doing? What are they doing? They're not doing anything. They're waiting for you to tell them what to do. If you were to say, hey, we need to secure that building on the corner. And then all your fire teams start to do something smart that's moving in that direction. And they'll coordinate with each other.

• 55:07Jocko Willink?

  They'll figure out that they need to coordinate. We say, hey, you cover. I got this. Hey, you punch out over here. Okay. And they will start to do things. And guess what? Your job will be nothing other than the overall strategic call of, hey, we're gonna go and secure that building on the corner. Strong point that building. Okay, cool. You don't need to, I'm a fire team leader, bro. You tell me the strong point of building. I'm good to go. I don't need, you don't need to tell me a damn thing. Nothing. Don't tell me anything. I got it. And by the way, I'll, if my other fire teams aren't understanding what's going on or don't know what to do, I'll, I'll handle them too. And there's always a couple nugs like that, ready to get it on. You know what I'm saying? It's so badass. It's so badass. You just, you know, you need to be, now, listen, do people sometimes need to be told what to do?

• 55:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that's when you flex down. You get some confusion going on and you occasionally got to flex down and say, hey, we're holding this building. I need two fire teams across the street. Now, do you need to do that? Sometimes? Yes, absolutely. It happens in business. Things will be going sideways. Oh, I gotta get in there. I gotta make a decision here. That's what I need to do right now. I need to give guidance. The team, the fire team leader, he's not looking, he's not seeing everything that you're seeing. He's not seeing the enemy troops to the north. He's not seeing the, the coalition troops to the south that are heading our way. They're gonna be able to handle the situation for us or support us. They can't see that. They're just going, dude, we're getting overwhelmed right now. Yeah. Hey, don't worry. We're gonna strong point this building. We got coalition forces inbound. We got a QRF inbound. Oh, okay, cool.

• 56:36Jocko Willink?

  Until you tell him that, he doesn't know. He's worried about the freaking get his pig back up. You know, get that fucking gun up. You know, that's what he's thinking about. God bless him. And he's thinking about where am I going next? He'll make a decision if you don't tell him. But when you see the bigger picture, which you should, cool. Then you give him that broad overall guidance of what, where we're trying to go. He's gonna get you there. And occasionally you gotta get down in there, but most of the time you give him that direction of what you're doing, they'll make it happen.

• 57:07Jocko Willink?

  But if you try and micromanage, you, you, you'll fail. So, in order to truly maintain command and control, you have to influence what you can. You have to give broad guidance. You have to train people so that they will actively try and do some smart shit that is in support of what we're doing. Which by the way, a fire team leader wants to do that. Like your team leader at your insurance company or your construction company. You know, those team leaders want, they want to be doing something smart. They don't want to waste time. They don't want, they want to be efficient. They want to do a good job.

• 57:51Jocko Willink?

  So when you show up to work and they haven't moved, it's not their fault. It's your fault that you haven't given them the direction that they needed. That's what's, that's what's happening. That's what's happening. You have not given them the direction that they needed and therefore, or you've trained them to be responsive to what you tell them. And some people that's a, think that's a dream come true. It's not a dream come true. It's not a dream come true to have robots working for you. I'm sorry, Elon Musk. I'm sorry, uh, uh,

• 58:21Jocko Willink?

  these AI companies.

• 58:24Jocko Willink?

  You don't, you don't want that. Hey, look, are there menial tasks they can do? Sure. Can the robot wash my dishes? Cool. What's the worst case scenario who washes my dishes and breaks one? Like, we're all gonna live.

• 58:36Jocko Willink?

  But if there's a fire in your house, do you want the robot going in there to try and figure some shit out that they haven't been programmed for? That's a tricky one. I'll take that firefighter all day. That's gonna figure out how to make this, make this work. It's gonna pick up on things that, that no robot's gonna understand. So, to maintain command and control, yeah, first of all, you have to control yourself, control your ego. Boy, your ego doesn't, boy, your ego wants to be in control of everything. It's actually disturbing. It's actually disturbing how much your ego really wants just impose your will on people. Don't let that happen.

• 59:19Jocko Willink?

  So you control yourself and free your people. That's what we're doing.

• 59:27Jocko Willink?

  Check. All right. Uh, one thing that we can definitely take command and control over

• 59:34Jocko Willink?

  is our physical activity and that's what we're doing. That means we're getting after it. We're running, we're lifting, we're boxing, wrestling, jujitsu. Guitars, guitar or physical activity? Are you still playing guitar?

• 59:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 59:51Jocko Willink?

  Well, how far, how deep did you get? GCD?

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, GCD.

• 59:55Jocko Willink?

  Kind of good to go.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, yeah. Uh, I got, I got some minors in there too.

• 1:00:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Um, but I haven't, I haven't been given it the attention it deserves, man.

• 1:00:05Jocko Willink?

  Well, you know, you're acting all like you're disappointed the world. I've, I've been on that program for, since I was 14. I'm still there, homie. I'm still there.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  I, I did, I did write like a, a three note song.

• 1:00:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  That I'm pretty proud of.

• 1:00:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay, check. What's the name of the song?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Um, I, I just, I wrote the music. I'll, I'll say I haven't given it like lyrics or a name or anything.

• 1:00:29Jocko Willink?

  What's the, what's the tone? What's the scenario? Is it, is it a sweet song for your lady or what? Gee money?

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Buddy. Uh, I could tell you the, it's, uh, down, down, down, up, up, up, down, down, down. That's like the, the, um, the strumming pattern, I guess. Um, but it's, yeah, it's D to E to G possibly.

• 1:00:53Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever seen the things where they break down like how many songs are just the same? GCD?

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:00Jocko Willink?

  It's just, that's what, that's what it is.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Cowboy chords.

• 1:01:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:04Jocko Willink?

  No shame in that, my brother.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Jocko Willink?

  No shame at all. But there's a physical activity, kind of, you know? It's good for your, uh, coordination. So let's throw it on the, let's throw it in the mix. We should probably get a little more guitar on. At all of us. But regardless of what you're doing physically and mentally, you're gonna need some fuel. We, we, we strongly recommend. Jocko Fuel. We got everything that you need. I am one go deep right now. One go and it feels really good. I'm also one hydrate deep because I, I got after it this morning. And we got protein. We've got muscle drive. We've got, we got everything that you need, technically speaking.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the flavors are just on a different level now, like the, the across the board go. Uh, protein shakes especially, uh, the, the raspberry gelato that's out right now, the fruity cereal flavor that came before.

• 1:01:57Jocko Willink?

  Raspberry gelato is kind of a hitter.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Oh dude, summer. I'm, I'm gonna say it, refreshing. Like it just is. It feels, it, it feels good after.

• 1:02:08Jocko Willink?

  And then there's the nostalgic glory of fruity cereal.

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  The fruity cereal protein shake with no downside whatsoever. Isn't it crazy to, to, to, to do something that has no downside? There's no downside.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  There, there's literally a one word question when people try the, the fruity cereal and we tell them the macros and it's how.

• 1:02:31Jocko Willink?

  How?

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  How? And I always say science.

• 1:02:35Jocko Willink?

  So that's what we have. We have the best products with no downside so that you can be mentally, physically. And spiritually.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Straight up.

• 1:02:45Jocko Willink?

  In the game. That's what we're doing. Check out jacofuel.com or just go to your, go to your store, go to your grocery store, go to your convenience store. Go to your vitamin store. We, we're, we're kind of, we're kind of taking over. We're in 50,000 stores right now. If they don't, if you don't see it, ask for it and they will reach out to us and we'll make it happen. So jacofuel.com or wherever you shop. We got you. Also Origin USA. We make American made, American made clothing and gear. So jeans, boots, hoodies, t-shirts, jujitsu gear, jujitsu gis.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  I just gave Rana her brown belt, an Origin brown belt. You know, you're gonna give your American daughter.

• 1:03:35Jocko Willink?

  Her brown belt, it's gotta be an origin one, right? Just think of that, it's glorious.

• 1:03:42Jocko Willink?

  American made belts, American made rash guards, American made shorts. We got everything and it's all 100% American made. This is, and look, I'll tell you right now, I'm happy to see that American, Americans are refocused on American manufacturing. We're seeing people investing and building in America, thankfully. It's great to see, but we've been doing this the whole time. We've been investing in America since day one. We didn't take the, the, the, the blood money, the slave money, the environmental disaster money, we didn't take that money. We did it the right way from day one.

• 1:04:23Jocko Willink?

  We led the charge on American manufacturing, restoring American manufacturing, bringing back these communities that were broken by corporate sellouts.

• 1:04:36Jocko Willink?

  We did not play that game. We kept it American, we kept it real, built by freedom here. So, support America, support our economy, support our workers, support originusa.com, go get some.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  We've also got Jocko store.com. Uh, if you've ever thought to yourself, man, I would really like a shirt that says good, or discipline equals freedom, that I can just rep when I'm going through my day. That's where you can find them, uh, got all kinds of gear on Jocko store.com.

• 1:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Is it true that there's a, a certain percentage of personal discipline that increases when you are representing?

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:19Jocko Willink?

  I mean, if you get caught eating a donut, wearing a Defqor t-shirt, is that like?

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  And that's a real consideration.

• 1:05:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  You know, you can't go.

• 1:05:29Jocko Willink?

  There's a percentage.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  You're not stopping by Krispy Kreme in a sugar coated lie shirt. You're just not doing it.

• 1:05:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a legitimate increase in personal discipline.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Standard deviation increase for sure.

• 1:05:42Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna be, you're gonna be just, you have to be.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:45Jocko Willink?

  You have to be.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:05:47Jocko Willink?

  It's a little bit of that, uh. You heard that Turk about like the talk about your identity, like what do you identify?

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:55Jocko Willink?

  How do you identify? And then your identity does not allow.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:00Jocko Willink?

  This like.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  It's contrary to the identity.

• 1:06:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Jocko Willink?

  Yep. There's a big transition that kids make. When in their life, when they go from. My parents told me to do this, or my parents told me not to do this. To I don't do this, right? So when you're a kid. Like when I was a kid and. I didn't drink. And I didn't do drugs and it wasn't really for me. It wasn't really because of my parents. It was because it was because the hardcore. Yeah, that's what we're doing. And. But there was a big difference between a kid that would say, well, I don't want to get in trouble. Hey, well, hey, do you want a beer? No, I don't want to get in trouble or my parents are going to come home or whatever. There's a big difference between that kid. Who?

• 1:06:49Jocko Willink?

  Is is is obeying someone else? And me. And my friends that were like, no, I don't drink. This is me. You see what I'm saying? There's a huge difference. So I didn't. That was part of my identity was like, oh, that's not my thing. You know what I do? I work out. I try and be strong. I try and be mentally clear. That's what I'm doing. So. When you represent, it's a real thing. And I'll tell you like, you know, when I got the SEAL teams, unfortunately, that the big. I wanted to be a good SEAL that what what my identity changed, unfortunately. Of. Oh, we're drinking? Cool. Then let's go. And I kind of adopted that weakness. But.

• 1:07:36Jocko Willink?

  Overall, if you consider. Who you are. Who you want to be and you make that. A thing. Then all of a sudden, it's a lot harder to waver. It becomes a lot harder to waver. Because you don't want it's not you. So I recommend.

• 1:07:55Jocko Willink?

  Represent.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  And hey, if you've got a kid that's on the path and wants to represent too, we've got discipline equals freedom shirts for kids. We've got Warrior Kid shirts for kids. Let's build that identity.

• 1:08:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  Get some.

• 1:08:08Jocko Willink?

  Build that identity for your kids. Help them build that identity. It's huge. It's huge. Now, listen, it's also challenging when you're an adult because when you're a parent, because your children have to rebel against you. They have to. They have to rebel against you because they have to leave the house. They have to leave the nest. And psychologically, if they are always obeying you and following you, psychologically, they can't ever leave. You don't want them to be like that. So there's going to be some form of rebellion.

• 1:08:41Jocko Willink?

  That's why the things that you want to teach them, a lot of times, it's easier to have someone else to teach them those things. And even in the Warrior Kid books, that's one of the reasons why it's Uncle Jake and not Dad. Because kids don't listen to Dad. They have to rebel against him a little bit. They have to. They have to rebel against Mom a little bit. That's why you get those frictions, those teenage frictions. But you can't help them build the correct identity by giving them the right information. Because the word brainwashing, right, bad connotation, right, we don't want to brainwash people because we want them to think for themselves. But I regret to inform you, they're getting brainwashed.

• 1:09:26Jocko Willink?

  They're getting brainwashed. We are getting brainwashed. Because when you're allowing inputs into your brain, it's having an impact. So what are you going to allow into their brain? There's some stuff you're not going to have any control over. I mean, you can't lock them in a room and, you know, only have them listen to Discipline Equals Freedom field manual for the rest of their life. That'd be problematic. There's going to be other influences, but what are going to be the strongest ones? So get those kids that wore your kid books, by the way, way to where your kid.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Also check out that shirt locker, uh, new shirt every month. Def core.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Cool designs, creative designs, a little more out of the box. A lot of good feedback.

• 1:10:07Jocko Willink?

  I just went on that whole, that whole freaking tantrum and you just, you had to bring it back to the shirt locker.

• 1:10:15Jocko Willink?

  That goes, you're like, I can't drop the ball with this. Hey, by the way, shirt locker. Choco's over here trying to help save children from weakness. But wait, Echo over here.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  We got the subscriptions.

• 1:10:28Jocko Willink?

  He's got the subscription scenario. All right, cool. Hey, by the way, shirt locker. Check that out too.

• 1:10:34Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you gotta know, bro. Hey, if the vibe ain't there, he's got, I don't know. I don't know if Texas, I don't know if Echo is gonna text you up like, yo, you didn't mention the subscription scenario. He's gonna hammer you for that. But no, now he's gonna be like, hey, thanks for getting it done. Yeah, I'm sure that's gonna have a big impact.

• 1:10:54Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Yeah. Subscription scenario doggo store for the shirt locker. Also got a bunch of books. I wrote a bunch of books about for adults as well. Discipline Goes Freedom Field Manual, by the way. Haven't mentioned that one in a bit. Uh, Extreme Ownership, Dichotomy Leadership, Leadership Strategy and Tactics. And then we got Dave Burke. He wrote The Need to Lead. We got Put Your Legs On by Rob Jones. If you need steak, go to coloradocraftbeef.com and get some steak. Check out Eslem Front. We have the muster coming up July 8th through the 10th, 2026. July 8th through the 10th, 2026, here in San Diego, California. It's in the summertime. It's after the 4th of July.

• 1:11:34Jocko Willink?

  If you want to, this is an opportunity for you to bring your fam out. Check out SD. Check out Sea World. Check out the Wild Animal Park. Check out the San Diego Zoo. Check out the USS Midway. Check out the Navy SEAL Museum.

• 1:11:52Jocko Willink?

  The UDT Seal Museum in downtown San Diego, which is epic. All these opportunities, if you bring your fam out to San Diego, that's one of the reasons why we did a little summer muster. So if you want to do that, check out echelonfront.com or if you and your organization needs some kind of help with leadership,

• 1:12:11Jocko Willink?

  then check out echelonfront.com and we got you covered. We also have a online training program, which is extremeownership.com, teaching the skills of leadership online. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also check out HeroesAndHorses.org. Also check out Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org.

• 1:12:40Jocko Willink?

  Also WarriorsInNeed, WarriorsInNeed.org. They've got, they're taking military aviation technicians and bringing them into the civilian world to, well, quite frankly, to fill 30,000 job vacancies that are in the aviation world. So check out WarriorsInNeed.org and then StrongholdRescue.org and Single Parent Project. We've got a lot of orgs trying to help all these people out. If you want to connect with us, check out Jaco.com. And then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink, Kerry's at Kerry Helton. Just watch out for the algorithm and the, and the little brainwashing that's going on, the micro brainwashing, little bit at a time, a little, another little,

• 1:13:21Jocko Willink?

  another little thought been put into your head, leading you in the bad direction. Be careful of that. It's a real thing. It's happening. It's happening to you. It's happening to me. Fight it. Thanks to all our service members around the world right now, taking command and control of our peace and security. Thank you for your service. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thanks for supplying us with peace and security on the home front. And everyone else out there, just keep it in mind, the world's a big place. And it's filled with unpredictable things, the weather, the wildlife,

• 1:14:06Jocko Willink?

  the tectonic plates, which apparently in California are built up to thousand year highs right now. It's coming, but least predictable of all, the world is filled with human beings. And we can't control everything. We can't control what the enemy does. We can't control what the competitor does. We can't control what the market does, but what we can control is us.

• 1:14:29Jocko Willink?

  And that's the best we can do. Influence the rest as positively as we can. But don't hold on too tight. Or you'll get taken for a ride. You don't want to be on.

• 1:14:41Jocko Willink?

  We cannot make everything perfect. But what we can do is lead. And that's all we've got for tonight. Until next time, this is Kerry and Jocko.