Want To Live Longer? Here's the Truth About Supplements, Peptides, VO2 Max, GLP-1's, and the Only Real Miracle Drug | Kara Swisher

Plus: Hyperbaric chambers, red-light therapy, mRNA, cancer research, and the surprising importance of boredom and friction. Kara Swisher is a veteran tech journalist, host of the Pivot https://podcasts.voxmedia.com/show/pivot podcast with Scott Galloway, and one of the most influential voices covering the intersection of technology and power. Her new CNN documentary series, Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever https://www.cnn.com/videos/title-2555467, takes on the longevity industry — separating genuine medical breakthroughs from the pseudoscience being sold to anyone with a credit card and a fear of aging. Kara Swisher has been covering Silicon Valley longer than most of its billionaires have been rich — and she's watched them turn a simple fear of death into a multi-billion dollar industry of expensive, largely unproven interventions. After her own stroke at 49, she decided to investigate: what actually works, what's a grift, and what does the science really say about living longer? The result is a new CNN documentary series that's part BS-detector, part genuinely hopeful look at the medical breakthroughs that could change everything. This conversation covers both. We talked about: Why biohacking culture is basically a men's eating disorder dressed up as science Bryan Johnson, Peter Attia, and what Silicon Valley gets catastrophically wrong about longevity The supplements, therapies, and interventions that are mostly hype (peptides, hyperbaric chambers, red light therapy, full-body scans) What VO2 max actually measures — and why it's one of the few metrics worth tracking GLP-1 drugs: the real promise behind the Ozempic headlines The mRNA breakthroughs that could produce a pancreatic cancer vaccine Why your relationships are a more powerful longevity drug than anything you can buy The case for boredom, friction, and putting your phone down How thinking about death every day can make you happier and less afraid Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here https://app.danharris.com/membership Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD This episode is sponsored by: Eight Sleep: Use code DanHarris at eightsleep.com/danharris http://eightsleep.com/danharris for up to $350 off the Pod 5, with a 30-day trial if it's not for you. Rosetta Stone – Get 20% off your Rosetta Stone Sapphire subscription when you sign up today. Visit rosettastone.com/happier http://rosettastone.com/happierButcherBox: New listeners can get free ribeyes or top sirloins for a year — or ground beef and bacon for a year — plus $20 off their first box at butcherbox.com/happier http://butcherbox.com/happier BetterHelp — Online therapy, matched to your needs. Get 10% off your first month at https://www.betterhelp.com/happier To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Dan Harris?

  Hey everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Today, we're going to talk to the legendary tech journalist Kara Swisher about the misleading and often very expensive longevity bullshit that we all encounter online and elsewhere. Kara Swisher is not only going to debunk some of this stuff, but she's also going to talk about what she has found in her research actually works to live a longer and healthier life. Some of the things she'll talk about that actually work, you will have heard of, but she will also reveal some really interesting technological innovations that are coming down the pike at us that could have far reaching and really awesome effects on the species. Many of you will know Kara Swisher. She is, as I said, a legendary tech journalist.

• 0:48Dan Harris?

  She's been around for a minute. She is the co-host of the Pivot Podcast. She co-hosts that alongside Scott Galloway, who's been on the show a couple of times. She has a solo podcast that's called On with Kara Swisher. But most relevant for this podcast, she is the star and host of a new docu-series on HBO Max that just dropped that's called Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever. So we'll talk to Kara Swisher right after this quick break. A few things before we hear from our sponsors. We've got this awesome new series launching soon on my new-ish meditation app, 10% with Dan Harris. Many people ask me, how do I get started in Buddhism? How do I learn more about it? How do I go deeper? So we are now

• 1:33Dan Harris?

  going to provide a solution. Every week this summer, for eight weeks, every Sunday, the great Buddhist teacher Sharon Salzberg is going to host a live session every Sunday at 4:00, starting on July 12th at 4:00 PM Eastern, and running for eight weeks. And every week, she's going to break down one aspect of the foundational Buddhist list, the Eightfold Path, the Noble Eightfold Path. This is the Buddha's cookbook for human happiness. It talks about how to get better at seeing the world clearly, how to get better at meditation, how to get better at dealing with other people, how to get better at work. Really is quite comprehensive. And like I said, it is a great way to dip your toe into Buddhism.

• 2:16Dan Harris?

  Or if you've already learned quite a bit about the Dharma, this is a great way to go deeper. Sharon, during these eight live sessions, will guide a meditation, talk a little bit about one aspect of the Eightfold Path, and then take your questions. Of course, if you miss any of the live sessions, you can always watch them on demand. You can get all of this on the aforementioned 10% with Dan Harris Meditation App. If you want to get the app, it's at danharris.com. Again, that's danharris.com. There's a free 14 day trial if you want to try before you buy. I hope you come check it out. We'll be right back after this.

• 2:52Speaker 01

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• 3:24Dan Harris?

  Kara Swisher, welcome to the show.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you for coming to my home here at Vox Media.

• 3:29Dan Harris?

  I'm happy to, for you, I'm happy to.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for doing that. I appreciate it.

• 3:32Dan Harris?

  Total pleasure. Congratulations on the new show.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:35Dan Harris?

  When I first heard about it, I was like, huh, I didn't think of you as a wellness person.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  I'm not.

• 3:40Dan Harris?

  Well, but then I heard, learned about your backstory.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 3:44Dan Harris?

  Are you comfortable talking about your dad?

• 3:46Speaker 02

  Absolutely. That whole, that whole show begins in my dad's grave, so I have to be, I guess. And it ends with my brother talking about my dad.

• 3:53Dan Harris?

  What's the story there for those who don't know?

• 3:54Speaker 02

  So my dad died when I was five of a cerebral hemorrhage. He was 34 years old and he'd just gotten out of the Navy and he had, he had not a hard scrap of life, but he, he went in the Navy because he couldn't pay for college and, or medical school. And so he had just gotten out, had three kids. He got his first big job and then he died, just like that. And there's a great book called The Loss That Is Forever that I always loved. And it was, it's about how if, if you have a parent That dies at a young age. The trauma alone is hard, right? As if half your friends died because it's your parent. And he was a very active parent. It changed my life in both, I wouldn't say good ways, but helpful ways in terms of coping with anything. Cause my brothers and I are very highly functional. And so I was always sort of aware of death in the background.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Because when you have someone who dies, if someone close that dies, when you're a young age, you are aware of death from the very beginning. And it really helps inform your life. Meaning it makes you happier in a weird way because you aren't scared of anything. You know that trauma could happen in any second or disaster. And, and you've gotten through it. And so I was very functional and my brothers are really functional. And, which is a weird term, but it's true. We're very like, we go right through. We're really, nothing ever drags us down. And I, and so it always stuck with me about thinking about death all the time, but not in obsessive Wednesday Adam kind of way, like not that kind of thing. But it was more like, okay, I'm going to die someday. And therefore I'm going to do this. And therefore I'm going to do that. And therefore I'm not going to wallow in this.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  And, and so I was really interested in it. And then when I got to Silicon Valley, I was just covering tech, just the way I'd covered tech. I was a really good tech reporter, did a lot of interviews. But one of the things that kept coming back with these guys was this longevity thing. But it wasn't just longevity. It wasn't just being healthier or, you know, collapsing lifespan and health span, which you were aware of that, that which is a pretty good concept. But it was like, what can we do to hack the body as if it was a computer or a robot or something? And I found it narcissistic. I found it not interested in humanity. I thought they were doing enormous damage to the psyche of America especially, but the world at large. But all they wanted to do was keep their meat sack going. And for what?

• 6:04Speaker 02

  And so I decided to combine my two interests in death and awareness of death. And then I want to look at. At the same time, the charlatanism of social media around health and wellness, and then some of the really big breakthroughs that are actually happening that will help us all. So it's kind of a grab bag.

• 6:23Dan Harris?

  I have a million questions about the grab bag and all of the things you learned, but just staying on a biographical tip for a second. I think your interest was spurred not just by losing your father so young, but also you had a health scare.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  I did. I did. I left that one out. Oops. I had a stroke when I was in my, I think, 49, 48, 49. And I was doing an event in China with Walt Mossberg. I had a, ran a big tech conference, very famous. It was our first international one, and we were doing it in Hong Kong. And I was flying there, and I got to Hong Kong, and I had a headache, and I had migraines. I was, you know, I had migraines. I just did. And I get to the hotel room, I go to sleep, I still have this headache, and I wake up, and I start typing a story about Yahoo. They did something else. They fucked up something. And I was like, oh, these fuckups. And I said out loud, another fuckup from Yahoo. And it came out, and I was like, that's weird. You know, it was weird. And I go to eat a strawberry, because

• 7:18Speaker 02

  I'd ordered room service, and it fell out of my mouth. And I was like, this is strange. What's happening? And I felt tingling, tingling in my hand. And I couldn't speak. And so I went into the bathroom, I'll never forget this, and I start doing the Oscar Mayer baloney song. I don't know why. This is like, if I died right there, that would have been my last moment of singing. But oh, it's a good song. My baloney has a first name. It's O S C A. And it was like, it was complete aphasia, essentially. And so I was like, what do I do? And so I, I texted my brother, because I couldn't talk. And I texted Walt Mossberg, who was also in Hong Kong at the time. My brother's a doctor. And then I got in the shower and went up to breakfast. Like, it was like, this is weird, kind of thing.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  And by the time I got to breakfast, it was cleared up. I was able to talk. I felt like I was like, when you get your teeth filled, when you have that, I had that. But it was mostly resolved, essentially. And my brother, the time difference was so that my brother was asleep, or whatever, he just couldn't get back to me. And then he did, and he's like, you're having a stroke, Cara. Get to the hospital. I was like, what are you talking about? I'm fine. Like, I totally insulted him as a doctor. He goes, just do me the favor. Go and have an MRI, please. Just as for me, to make me feel better. And I said, fine. And I go to the hospital in Hong Kong, Chinese hospital, and They were like, you're having a stroke.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  So, but I was fine. I was. They gave me medication right away. And it turned out I had a hole in my heart that the blood clot went through.

• 8:51Dan Harris?

  And it's been cured?

• 8:53Speaker 02

  It's cured. Well, cured. What is cured? I have a thing called thick blood, F5, F something or other, essentially Mediterranean blood. That's what, that's the way they refer to it sometimes. And I had a hole in my heart and many, just recently, I had it, I had a plug put in. But, because I didn't want, at the time, it was open heart surgery. And I thought, I don't think so.

• 9:13Dan Harris?

  Hmm.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Because that's, that has its own, like, why would I have open heart surgery? Until a doctor said, you know, little bits of blood are going through the hole into your brain, you're going to be demented, you know, at, I don't know, six, not sixties, but you, you could have dementia because of it. And I'm like, I feel like I'm going to fix that. And then now it was 20 minutes, 20 minute surgery.

• 9:33Dan Harris?

  So that's the psychological backdrop for this new show?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Death, death, death. Everywhere.

• 9:38Dan Harris?

  Yes, death or near death.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Mortality.

• 9:41Dan Harris?

  Yes, mortality. So I was thinking we could kind of divide this into two buckets.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 9:46Dan Harris?

  The first bucket is the bullshit.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:48Dan Harris?

  Like, I'd be curious, like, yes. And then I want to get to what, what works. Well, maybe let's start the bullshit conversation by talking about Brian Johnson.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Ah, yes.

• 9:56Dan Harris?

  Who is he?

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Not all bullshit, by the way.

• 9:58Dan Harris?

  Yeah, well, that's what's interesting to me. Who is Brian Johnson, for those who don't know?

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Well, it was interesting. He was a guy who had a tech company, and I actually wrote about it when he sold it. He sold it for 800 million dollars, something like that. It was a payments company. And he came to my conference, actually, one of my last conferences. I did these little, people showed off new technology. So I gave them a spotlight, it was called Spotlight. And he showed off a lot of this brain research he had been doing after he sold his company, because he had a lot of money and free time. And he got, he had a depression problem. And so he, or he was depressed for many years. And he was talking about the uses of the human brain and different things and psychedelics. I found it a very interesting area for him to explore. And so I had him up on stage. And it was fascinating. I remember thinking, this is really promising. And this is really interesting that he's talking about how to deal with trauma through

• 10:47Speaker 02

  a variety of new technologies and innovations. And then he shows up a couple of years later, looking like this, like he looks, as he says, like a motherfucking Patrick Bateman killer, right? You know, he himself understands the problem. And he had gotten very much into making himself a one man experiment for longevity. And a lot of it is interesting. I mean, olive oil, who can argue, kind of thing. But he measured everything. And he, to me, was the absolute version of Silicon Valley I could not stand. The idea that you could, measuring yourself in such a narcissistic way is, is going to help all of humanity. Like, I am here, is the great

• 11:27Speaker 02

  thing. And it has godlike tendencies, it has, and then he had this don't die thing, which he was being very cute about. And no, I'm not talking about living forever, just don't die. And I'm like, okay.

• 11:38Dan Harris?

  And a whole show on Netflix.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  He did, he did. And it's interesting. But he became kind of a joke when he did the, the blood trading with his, the plasma transfer between his son, his father and himself. And again, I don't mind people stunting it on the longevity stuff. But he, he was almost cult like the way he did it. And of course, he records his erections, he records his sleep. Now, lately, he's been tweeting about every time he has sex with his girlfriend, who's now into this, and now she's talking about her numbers. The whole thing is very strange. I find it very strange, vaguely sad. But I thought it was interesting because of, it's a mentality taken to the extreme of Silicon Valley, which is, everything is hackable.

• 12:20Dan Harris?

  And so I think your point, and we'll get to this later, is that it's, it's fine to think about being as healthy.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:27Dan Harris?

  For as long as possible.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  And using innovations.

• 12:30Dan Harris?

  Right.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, necessary.

• 12:31Dan Harris?

  But if it's fueled by narcissism.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Right. It's an experiment of one. That's what I said to him. And I was quite clear with him. And actually, very nicely, he wrote, and I said, well, that was tough, but you were fair. And I think that's what I was, I wanted to hear him, because he had become such a circus act, that everyone could easily make blood guy, you know? And I'm like, no, there's something very complex going on here. And some of his, again, some of his advice, creatine, absolutely. Interesting, really interesting, promising science. And some of it, like, stem cells that he inserts, or he, he liked, what was the thing he, he was into? Rapamycin?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  And then he stopped because it didn't work. And like, but he had all these people using it and I found it very dangerous. Because he was sort of, he's not a doctor, he's not an expert, it's an experiment of one. And he's giving all this advice and influencing people. And again, it was sort of writ large, all the social influencers that are full of nonsense that drove me crazy. And sometimes it's just costly. Sometimes it's bad information and making you not trust your doctors, which I think is very deleterious to our society. And some of it is just, just crazy. Just some of it is just nuts, some of his stuff. And I don't, I don't know what measuring his erections is going to do for the rest of us. And if, you know, if it cured cancer, I mean, I'm good at it.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Sometimes I think he's trolling people in that regard, but whatever. I just, it's just weird that you spend your whole life measuring it. You know, time slips away while you measure yourself constantly. And that, to me, was the sad part is his, you know. And he lives in this, like he has a house that's pulled back from the sun because certain sun rays are bad. I was like, but the sun is so nice. Or he eats in this way that's really joyless. You know, talk about lack of happiness. It's just, it's joyless. And it's, you know, I don't think it adds maybe an hour to his life, maybe, but there's no proof that it adds any time to his life.

• 14:23Dan Harris?

  I'm going to invoke a name, a controversial name, because the story is good. This is not in any way an endorsement of who I'm about to bring up, but Peter Attia, who got, and justifiably in quite a bit of trouble for his texts with Epstein.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Speaking of pussy having no carbs.

• 14:41Dan Harris?

  Exactly. Right, right.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  An asshole.

• 14:45Dan Harris?

  Anyway, so Attia, Dr. Peter Attia, who's written a very successful book about longevity. At one point, he's in the middle of a kind of very similar move of just quantifying everything, obsessed with living forever. The great Esther Perel, who is his therapist at this period of time, says, she says to him, why do you want to live forever if you're so miserable?

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Correct. That Esther puts her finger on it. And that was my thing. It was weird because one of the things when I was doing it, I ran into Zeke Emanuel, who I love, who's a cancer researcher and everything, and brother of Ari and Rom, and just this remarkable family, actually. And we were driving back from Something we did in Philadelphia. And he goes, I want to write a book about longevity. Because I was telling him about what I was working on. And he goes, I should write. And he did. He actually got it out. He wrote Eat Your Ice Cream, I think it was. And I go, well, what's the book's title? And he said, Peter Attia is a schmuck. That was the name of the book. And I was like, that is a fantastic title. Because he was making that point. Like, and he also thought some of Peter's science was not on point.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Right? It's always selling something. It's a supplement. It's selling this, selling that. By the way, some supplements are OK. Like, that's the other thing. I'm not going to go full hog any other way. But a lot of it is just a grift by a lot of people. And in Peter Attia's case, I think that book is Outlive, right? Outlive. Some of it's OK information. It's just the obsession. And he sort of plays to a male, a vain male demographic. And then he does all the concierge medicine, which is how he got mobbed up with Jeffrey Epstein.

• 16:23Dan Harris?

  Right, right.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  And the whole thing is so sad. I don't know what else to say. I find it sad. Now, apparently, he is a schmuck, as it turns out, from those Epstein notes.

• 16:32Dan Harris?

  They're not a good look, at the very least.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Schmuck is the word I would think is a correct word.

• 16:36Dan Harris?

  Schmuck's a fair word. This dietitian friend of mine, sorry, I have my own little mini stroke there. Her name is Evelyn Tribbley. And she talks about this biohacking mentality that men have.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:44Dan Harris?

  Women have it too, but it's, I think it's disproportionate among men.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  May I make a point?

• 16:48Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  When women have, talk about eating in a way that's somewhat troubling, it's an eating disorder. When men have it, it's body hacking.

• 16:53Dan Harris?

  That's her, that is exactly her point. It's, this is a body dysmorphism dressed up as science.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 16:59Dan Harris?

  And I think it's really true. And I have to say, there have been periods in my own life where I've fallen into that.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Of course. It's like dieting. Oh, if this, only this grapefruit diet would work. And you're always hoping for a solution, right? And so, to me, it takes advantage of people's natural inclination to want to better themselves or look better or feel younger or whatever. Because the society is an onslaught of, you're too old, fix your face, you know? And, you know, but men do it. And it's so, like, so I was at innumerable dinners in Silicon Valley. It started to happen. After they got money and they had a little more time, they started to look at their very unattractive bodies, I guess. And they're attracting people because they're rich. One guy was like, this one really hot woman came up to him after he went public. And he goes, do you think she likes me? I go, I'm sure it's your face.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  And he's like, fuck you. I was like, that's your wallet, my friend. That's, which is fine. But one of the things, like the early, the Google guys used to do all manner of tests, like Larry Page wore a pollution monitor and was telling me all about it. I was like, well, how's that going to actually help anybody or you to know that it's there? Well, I'm aware of it. I'm like, and what's the next step? And so first they started doing these full body scans. That's where it began. Like, and then everything about themselves and most of which was pointless data. And some of it isn't. Again, it's always a mixed bag with this stuff. And then they started the fasting stuff. That went on for quite a little time. Soylent, if you recall, that was another, I had to cover those guys.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  And then it was intermittent fasting. And then it was psychedelics. And then it was all manner of peptides was there after that and which is still here. It just goes on and on. And then Elon was the one who, you know, kept calling the body meat sacks to me and like that downloading your brain, putting it into the ether, living forever via another meat sack or something like that. And so it just was like, I was so sick of it. I was like, I think I'll just do a documentary series about it. I'm also writing a book about it.

• 19:02Speaker 01

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• 19:30Speaker 03

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• 20:02Dan Harris?

  Where do you come down on some of these things you've just listed? Peptides, PAN scans?

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Don't need the scan. They don't. A good, a good annual physical is fine. It's fine if you want to do it for your own enjoyment. You happen to have the money, but it doesn't give you any, unless you find yourself to have a tumor, which, okay, that's a good thing to find. But for the most part, you know, you get these false positives and you things that, and you do more tests that you don't need.

• 20:26Dan Harris?

  Right.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  So it doesn't really gives you an enormous amount of insight. It gives you, and it only gives you insight in the moment, in that moment of your body's time. So it's expensive and kind of pointless in a lot of ways. A good annual physical with a series of blood tests is plenty, and most people should have those, which they don't in this country. Well, we can get to that in a minute. But, and the other thing is, um, so that I'm like, you don't need that unless you have so much money. And I still don't understand why you need to, you don't even understand that data or what it means. And again, it's a, it's a snapshot in time. Peptides is really, that's the new trendy thing. You know, look, GLP-1s are peptides, right? So, you know, a lot of people are using them and they, of course, everything is like, I feel better. I'm like, eh, not scientific. None of the science is there yet. And I don't mean to say it's not going to be.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  It just isn't. If you go, if you actually go find all the studies, very unproven. And that's my issue with it. It's like, you feel better? Really? Thank you, Dr., you know, Einstein. Like, I don't, I don't get it. Like, and that's, and also you're using peptides that have been mixed largely in China right now, which is where they're getting from them. And so whenever someone does this, they're like, peptides? I'm like, China, they're, they may not be pure. Sepsis, sepsis is real bad and you could get sepsis. Like, I'm like, why are you doing this for unproven science? Like, it's kind of silly and people just shove it in there and their body. Scott does a lot of these things. You know?

• 21:48Dan Harris?

  Scott Galloway, your co-host on Pivot.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  And then NADs, that's the other one. I feel better. Some of it is useful for healing wounds and things like that and...

• 21:57Dan Harris?

  NADs?

• 21:57Speaker 02

  NADs, it's a, it's another thing. It's a, they just, the rich people go through them really fast and they, you know, in the Hamptons, they go through them. Oh, I'm taking this, I'm taking that. Red light, people are mad at me, but most of the science isn't, is somewhat promising, but not yet.

• 22:12Dan Harris?

  This is red light therapy?

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Red light therapy. It works on plants in space. It helps them grow.

• 22:18Dan Harris?

  Okay.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  And if you're a plant in space, I highly recommend it. Some inflammation stuff, sure, but my issue is the amount of money and the promises. It's not just possible small amounts of inflammation is it is going to make you young. It is going to solve your cancer. Like, I'm like, no, they don't usually do that with red light. But what they do is they ascribe, if you look online, they give it an answer for everything. And it's the science just isn't there. And I'm just like, I'm sorry, I cannot find really good scientific gold standard proof that this is the case. And so, but then you have people who just swear, I feel better. But I'm like, with the $600 face mask, same thing with heavy supplements, right? Some of them, vitamin K, probably, it's hard to

• 23:02Speaker 02

  get it elsewhere. B12, yes, that's something you don't get as easily. But, you know, say fish oil, I get it, why people are taking it, eat a piece of fish. Like, I'm just, I don't know, just, or protein maxing, that's the other one. Men, you don't need this much protein. Every single study says you don't need this much. You need a certain amount, that's true. Same thing with fiber, same thing with anything else. But what they do is they take one thing and then take it, if a little protein is good, then a lot of it has to be really good for you. And it's not RFK, it's not. Do not eat caribou, no matter what he says, it's not going to be good for you in the end, and you're going to die. And so, a lot of these interventions are not going to be good later, right? When you're older. And I worry about that. Hyperbaric chambers, I went in one, you do not need

• 23:47Speaker 02

  a hyperbaric chamber unless you are involved in the building of the Brooklyn Bridge in 18, in the 1890s, yes, or 70s, that's an important. Benz, the Benz is a terrible thing, and you should go in a hyperbaric chamber. There's some indication around wound healing when you're, and you have surgeries and stuff, but a lot of people are using it, like, just go in it. And again, if a little oxygen is good, a lot more might be better. And they can also blow up, that's always an issue. And you can get a stroke in there, too. Like, I'm sort of like, for what is, I feel better. Oh, okay, great, good for you. It costs $300 to sit in there and get more oxygen. I don't, again, it's, people take advantage of it. Trying to think of some other things. There's so many. Recently, there was electric, oh, sorry, electric vests when you exercise, it's shock you.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  You remember those, like, remember the thing where they like shook your butt?

• 24:34Dan Harris?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  That didn't work.

• 24:37Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Like, but everyone was doing it. Like, that's the kind of thing.

• 24:39Dan Harris?

  Electric vests that shock you while you're working?

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Someone sent it to me the other day. Yeah, you, you wear a vest, weighted vests. Fine. Okay. Those are okay. Those seem fine. You have to be careful about on your joints and everything else. But they're electric vests and they shock you. I just, I couldn't even. I was like, no, we're not doing, we're not doing this.

• 24:58Dan Harris?

  Something else you test on the show alongside D. F. Formans and Scott Galloway is sound therapy.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Sound therapy, which is actually, at some point, there is some indications that sound can calm people, cortisol issues, things like that. But you already know this when you listen to, when you listen to a symphony. You know, you already know this as a human being. And so this was, but here it is taken to extreme. It's a giant seven, I don't know, 15,000, I forget how much it was. It was some number that was large. It's a pod that you sit in and you listen to indigenous music and it vibrates. I don't know, I could sit on the subway and listen to Tchaikovsky and have the same experience. I don't, you know what I mean? Like, kind of thing. And, and so they're trying to do the science around it. And I do, you, you, you know, I think through history, music has been really important to people.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  And they're, and they're for calmness, for cortisol, for all kinds of, you know, I can see it, but it's also, again, unproven. And you don't need a pod to do it.

• 25:52Dan Harris?

  Right. Spotify subscription might do the trick.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Correct. Calm. Like, whatever. Just use calm. And, you know, I think at the same time, then people are like going into chatbots and using their phones, which are very bad for your health. Like, constant doom scrolling, besides upsetting you and creating all manner of problems, has all these deleterious effects, like, on you. And it's going to be utterly proven, the negative effects, especially chatbots on people. They start to get psychosis around it, especially with kids. A lot of kids have committed suicide, you know, after having chatbot relationships, which a lot of these tech companies are coming in. And so the things that really hurt you, no one's focused on, because this is what we've accepted as our reality, which is constantly being staring at a device.

• 26:37Dan Harris?

  I completely see how being sucked into your device all day long, specifically social media with the toxic comparison and anger and anxiety.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Lack of movement.

• 26:47Dan Harris?

  And lack of movement. But chatbots specifically, like I talked to Claude about my creative stuff.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  Sure, that's fine.

• 26:56Dan Harris?

  Okay, that's different.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  It'd be better to talk to a human, like actually.

• 26:59Dan Harris?

  I do both.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. I mean, I think, I'm talking about the dependence on it.

• 27:03Dan Harris?

  I see.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  And you can see it moving that direction. I interviewed Sherry Turkle of MI2, who's been studying this for years, and she was, it is starting to become a real problem. Because it was usually a fringe thing that people had, but when you start to create relationships that are without friction, it's not good for your brain. It's just not. One of the things that Silicon Valley people say all the time, the word seamless, they let, let's make it seamless. I'm like, let's not make it seamless. Because friction is actually very good for your cognitive development. Friction, doing things different, interacting with people. You know, Zeke does all kinds of different things from his job. He makes honey, he dances, he does. Very good for your health, actually, your cognitive health especially, which is critically linked to your other health, right? It's all part of a system. And so, you know,

• 27:47Speaker 02

  it's fine, but it becomes addictive in that way. And especially, you know, with young men watching porn all the time, young women, self-esteem, this all has health effects on people. And then it removes people from other people. So I did like, I did a sober rave, which I hated because I don't like dancing in the sauna with young people. But it's actually very good for you. It's like group activities. I play games, games, game plan. I brought a neuroscientist to a game playing night in Brooklyn, where all these young people put their phones down, they play games, mahjong, chess, poker. By the way, these young people cannot play poker. I beat them all very badly, like a drum. I beat them like a drum, is what it was. But it was actually fun, you know what I mean?

• 28:29Speaker 02

  And I felt better after. And I couldn't quantify it, but we spent a lot of time because of digital issues away from each other. If someone was like, what's the number one thing you can do for longevity? I was like, well, don't be poor, really. That's, you know, be rich, because that really helps you in terms of longevity. Two things, universal healthcare for the whole population and community, friends and family. Scientific research on this is very clear. Human interaction is probably one of the healthiest things you can do and have connections with people and lack of connections, loneliness, we talked about that. The separation and isolation is incredibly bad for humans.

• 29:05Dan Harris?

  Yes, you interviewed Bob Waldinger, who is, in my opinion, just kind of like world's historic.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:13Dan Harris?

  In terms of what his research has shown, which people listening to the show probably are familiar with.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  The happiness.

• 29:19Dan Harris?

  This study of multi-generations in the Boston area for 90 years.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Both poor and rich, too, they studied, yeah.

• 29:24Dan Harris?

  Yes, and the number one variable in your longevity is not being in a hyperbaric chamber. It's the quality of your relationship.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  The quality of your relationships and it's scientifically, and they're adding things on to that to show that. And I think oddly enough, people intuitively know this, right? Because the other night I had a Mahjong, I got a Mahjong lesson. I hired this lady to do, I won it in a school auction, and so she came and invited 16 people who did not know each other very well. They knew me, but weren't friends necessarily, because it's easier to fall into easy patterns with friends. And we had a fucking ball and everyone was like, I feel better. And I was like, actually, if we looked at your brain right now, you would be better, right? And it was really interesting and it was a feeling of happiness, like happiness of connection. Even negative connections can be helpful, right?

• 30:14Speaker 02

  You know, fights and things like that, as long as you're doing them in a healthy and non-toxic way. Even, one of the things that I found interesting among the studies was encounters with people you don't know, good encounters socially, like you say hi to a barista or something like that, is good for everybody. And I would challenge everybody, I say this in a lot of things, when you go out for coffee, look at the barista and say, hey, how's your day? This is what happens. Like you could see.

• 30:42Dan Harris?

  Yes, yes.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Look up, what?

• 30:44Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  You're interested in me? And follow it with, with, I watched my son do this and it's really something when you actually are paying attention to it. How's your day? Like, oh, good. Like, oh, what are you doing fun this weekend? Like, it's a game changer and you could see it and then you feel better. And then, but there are all kinds of scientific, I mean, Bob is great, this happiness study at Harvard. It's Harvard, the Harvard Happiness Study and it's really quite remarkable. Now, look, miserable people live long too, as we know, but, but connections.

• 31:12Dan Harris?

  Who could you be referring to?

• 31:13Speaker 02

  My mother.

• 31:16Dan Harris?

  I thought you were talking about Trump.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  But she has a lot of community. Oh, he is, well, you know, he has a lot of community. Oddly enough, he surrounds himself with people all the time. If you think about it, he's very social.

• 31:25Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  He's very social. I don't, I don't think he has any friends and he has a lot of people he knows and, but I do think, I mean, can you imagine, you know, hugging it out with a guy with him? No, you wouldn't, you wouldn't see that. But he has connections. He does make connections, whether they're loathsome people, that's for sure, but he does make connections. He's very, he likes those out, outdoor activities. It's always in service to his ego so that they, come let us adore me kind of stuff.

• 31:53Dan Harris?

  Watch me cheat at golf.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Watch me cheat. He had golf, stuff like that, but he, he actually is very social.

• 31:58Dan Harris?

  No, that is a fair point.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  He wants a ballroom for fuck's sake.

• 32:00Dan Harris?

  Exactly.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  He's obsessed with it.

• 32:01Dan Harris?

  Exactly. We've now moved into the what works section, but I'm just curious, like, has your social life changed as a result of doing this?

• 32:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm doing more things I don't, one of the things that Zeke does, which I thought was good, is try something you couldn't try. Like I learned to play mahjong. I'm not going to keep at it necessarily, but trying to do different, I'm looking at that ukulele over there. I'm like, I should learn to play that ukulele. You know, some people do crosswords, but it has to be beyond that kind of stuff. I definitely remove the phone from my presence more because you have to. You're addicted to it. You can't help but look at it. It's an addiction machine. And so I remove it. I spend a lot more time with my kids in, you don't have to like do constant like things, just sitting quietly. The other day I found myself, I went into a church and just sat. I haven't been in a church in a long time. I had, it was lovely, actually.

• 32:54Dan Harris?

  Am I gonna get Kara Swisher meditating?

• 32:56Speaker 02

  No, never. I'm such a monkey mind. No, I'm the worst meditator. I'm liter- I can't do it. I can't do it. I have a monkey mind.

• 33:04Dan Harris?

  Can we talk about this?

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 33:05Dan Harris?

  Because Zeke, Zeke's on my show as part of this same series we're doing about longevity, and he said the same thing to me.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Can't do it. None of the Emmanuels can meditate.

• 33:14Dan Harris?

  I want to preface what I'm about to say.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Are we gonna meditate?

• 33:16Dan Harris?

  No, we're not. I want to preface it by saying, I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. I never do that. I just want to convince you that the story you're telling yourself that you can't do it is false.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Ah, that's true. You're right.

• 33:29Dan Harris?

  So meditation does not involve clearing your mind. It just means focusing your mind for a nanosecond or two on one thing, usually your breath.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:37Dan Harris?

  Every time you get distracted, you start again. And in the waking up from distraction, you learn to be less owned by the monkey mind.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting. So I, I, there is so much science on meditation being so good for your health. I mean, absolute, there's no question in my mind that of all the many things you could do, meditation every day is probably one of the most healthy things you could do for yourself, both cognitively and personally, and from a, just a, just a soul point of view, right? But health, health, absolute, I have no, every bit of science explains this very clearly. And it's one of the ways to do it. Here's how I do it. I've, one of the things I started doing, I did V two max, which I do think is actually a great indicator.

• 34:14Dan Harris?

  Can you describe what that is?

• 34:15Speaker 02

  V two max is basically how your muscles and heart work together in a more efficient manner. That's the easiest way to put it. And you have a score. Once you, when you take the test, you put one of those, you know, one of these masks, like Bane masks on your face. Tom Cruise has it, and you know, the full facial breathing thing.

• 34:33Dan Harris?

  While you're sprinting on a bike or something like that?

• 34:35Speaker 02

  You don't have to run that hard, but you have to run a certain amount. Getting, what you want to do is you want to get your heart rate up, and then it's the ability to get it down again. Like the, that's, you know, so intermittent running is actually one of the best things. Not, a lot of men are like, I'm gonna run until I drop. I'm like, don't do that. That's really bad for you. You could possibly have a heart attack. Running up the scale, say, zone one, zone two, zone three, go back to zone one. How quickly does Your body, your heartbeat, go back down to whatever it happened. In my case, it's one ten to one twenty. How quickly does it go down from one thirty? And so VO two max measures this. That's all it's it's test. And I got my VO two max up quite a bit. Like I was in the low thirties. I got it up to thirty seven now. I so I started running. That's what I because I I used to run.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  I stopped and then I started again. It's on the treadmill and on the treadmill. I don't I don't listen to anything. I don't listen to music. I just do it. And that's my meditative.

• 35:31Dan Harris?

  That is that is.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  That's what I do. And I let my mind wander and I I get bored, if that makes sense. Like, and that's the hardest part is I was with my kids the other day and there there was a story about boredom and like people's inability to be bored now. And my son goes, what'd you do when you waited in line? I'm like, we were bored. Like you stood there and you either talked to people. You didn't do anything like you didn't. And there was nothing to look at. Maybe you had a newspaper, possibly, or a magazine. But mostly you were bored. And the ability to be bored is something I want to sort of have happen to me.

• 36:07Dan Harris?

  Well, a lot of creativity can come out of.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Absolutely. Where do you get your? I get it in the shower.

• 36:13Dan Harris?

  I often get it in meditation.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 36:16Dan Harris?

  Because what's happening is you're turning down the volume on habitual thought patterns and then new new things arrive.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  One hundred percent, one hundred percent. I do it in the shower. I suddenly am like, oh, yes, that, like that guy. Because I'm just staring, essentially. And I do think that's like a lot of those quiet moments are really important. And I went to Korea and that's a really interesting country. They've got all manner of problems in Korea. Let me just say, but they longevity is going up, up, up, up, up, especially among women. And first thing is absolutely universal health care. Universal health care for everybody. The rich get better health, but everybody gets a very quality level of health care every year and they can go up to sixteen times and get tests and stuff like that. They're focused on the face, people are thinking is vain. I'm like, actually, it isn't. It's about you're keeping your body feeling good. Right. And I think that's interesting.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  And when you say, how are you? In Korean, what they were telling me is the expression is, how is your body? So they're thinking about it. And then the last thing is their nutrition from a young age. I went to a school and the stuff they're serving, it's like these kids, it's unrecognizable in this country. They learn from a very young age to eat healthy foods, whether it's fermented foods. RFK, you're right about ferments. You're absolutely right. Ferments are good for you. But they fermented foods, they have a protein, they have a whole food, a whole fruit, a whole vegetable. And these kids eat this as if they were eating Doritos and hot dogs. It's really quite something to watch in terms of. But it's not like they don't eat snacks later. I mean, you've seen K-pop demon hunters, they absolutely do.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  But they have a, they have a base of healthy eating for the whole population that I think is probably contributing to that.

• 37:59Dan Harris?

  Couple of months ago, I bought my wife a birthday gift, which she returned. She did not mean any disrespect, but the fact is, the gift, honestly, this is on me, was a little impersonal and it wasn't really what fit her needs. I wanted to surprise her. I made a guess, but I did not guess correctly. And this happens all the time when you're looking for gifts. It's so easy to miss and to give something that doesn't feel on the mark, on the money and personalized to the recipient of the gift. Which brings me to one of our sponsors today, Zazzle, which is a custom marketplace where you can take basically any product, a mug, a tote bag, a card, a phone case, and make it mean something. You're not buying a gift, you're making one.

• 38:42Dan Harris?

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• 39:26Dan Harris?

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• 40:11Dan Harris?

  That's O-D-O-O dot com slash happier to learn more.

• 40:18Dan Harris?

  Okay, just to reset, we've talked about the bullshit. We've talked about the stuff that works. And then there's a subsection of the stuff that works that is frustrating for you because it works, but it's so expensive, most people can't access it.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Right, which I find irritating.

• 40:31Dan Harris?

  So what goes in that category?

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Just even the ability to belong to a health club and go there, right? Most, many people have two jobs. You know, that was one exchange with Brian that I thought was my favorite in the whole series, where he goes, you know, "Everyone can get a good night's sleep." I go, "Everybody can't, Brian." Like, that he thought that some people, you know, you're a single mother, two jobs, you gotta deal in a bad section of town, you can't sleep very well. You have housing insecurity, you have healthcare insecurity, you have childcare insecurity, one after the other, the health implications just... And that, to me, is one of the things that was sort of like, the amount of money we

• 41:13Speaker 02

  spend in not keeping people well at the beginning in preparation. It's like, it's like putting $20 in the bank and then when you get to 70, you have a million dollars. Like, this is, the money we pay in that period, the statistic that got me is, I think in this country, our, our health spend... Span is sixty five, apparently. That's what it's at now. Our lifespan is seventy nine now, which seems very young for most people, right? But that's what it is. That fourteen year gap is all sick care. It's, you know, hypertension, inflammation, cancer, blah, blah, blah. First, you have to collapse that. That would be great to collapse the lifespan and health span.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  The other part is we spend fifteen K, a little bit more than fifteen K on healthcare per capita. Other and we are at the lowest of every rung, every single indicator of health. We are at the bottom of. Korea, every peer country essentially is six, seven thousand dollars and they have so much better health outcomes. So to me, it's it's an economic argument. What are we doing? Like, we're wasting money on people dying, like in ways that are totally preventable. And that's the other part. So and let me put the last part, I would say, is some of the some of the break medical breakthroughs. That, to me, was really exciting. That's the part I really thought was important, was that all this noise, everything else.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  There are medical breakthroughs happening around mRNA technology.

• 42:41Dan Harris?

  What's that?

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Vaccines.

• 42:42Dan Harris?

  Okay.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  It's mRNA vaccines. It was used for COVID, but mRNA is messenger RNA, ribonucleic acid. It's it's the COVID vaccine, except it was originally meant studied for a cancer vaccine. They can they will be able to do a cancer vaccine. They just announced a pancreatic vaccine, pancreatic cancer vaccine. This is a very trouble. This is a cancer that is not easily treated.

• 43:05Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  That traditionally they've made huge strides in breast cancer and lung cancer, not pancreatic, not lung cancer, excuse me, breast cancer. And a variety of cancers, but lung cancer and pancreatic cancer are very difficult to treat with current methods. And so these mRNA technologies are amazing, but what is the Trump administration cutting? So I visited an mRNA lab and essentially the head of it, who won a Nobel Prize is like, they're murderers. We're killing people. So mRNA technology, amazing. GLP one technology is really interesting, speaking of peptides. But this this idea of getting use, helping use this this drug to to get people slim, but then accompanying it with food, food, education and and exercise education.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  Groundbreaking.

• 43:51Dan Harris?

  But they're expensive.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  They are now. They shouldn't be. If I was running it, I'd give everyone who needed a GLP-1 to take it. And then there's, right now, all these studies about its help in cognitive health and strokes and things like that.

• 44:03Dan Harris?

  Do you take one?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  I do now because my cardiac doctor was like, a very small amount, but it's like two, I forget what it is. I haven't started yet. But it's, it's in order to prevent the stroke. Because there's all these indications that GLP-1 drugs help, help with strokes. And I don't want a recurrence of my stroke. All manner of things. But we should be doing gold standard tests in all of this for our citizens so that we get rid of obesity, we get rid of, you know, food, food noise. It has indications around addiction. I interviewed Ron Kessler, his former FDA commissioner. He himself, smart man, educated man, has enough money, was way overweight, and GLP-1s is the only thing that worked. I just saw Whoopi Goldberg, who talks about it. She was 230 pounds. Now she's healthy. She said she's

• 44:48Speaker 02

  gotten rid of her hypertension, she's gotten rid of, like, there's all these great stories, but it's not just about weight, it's about other things, too, addictions. The other thing I thought, think is amazing, I hate to say AI, but AI and drug discovery, AI and cancer research, gene folding, CRISPR, I interviewed Jennifer Doudna. I went to one lab at Stanford, right, when I had my stroke, they used a catheter that went up my leg and put a plug in my heart, right? That was perfect. There's a new technology they're working on at Stanford, which is astonishing, that I show on the show, where they have this, remember the Fantastic Voyage, when they injected the little ship into the rich guy in order to solve the clot, or whatever he had? It's an old, look it up, it's about

• 45:33Speaker 02

  this bunch of scientists that get injected into the body, and they get attacked by white blood cells. But anyway, it's a great show. It's an old, and it's like, all old glitchy. You know, technology that looks stupid on the screen, but it's fantastic. You know, like the, you can see the string for the thing. And, and so this thing goes, this is a little nanobot. It's not that small. It's, it's small. It's good. It's inject it into your neck. If you have a stroke, right when you're having a stroke, they inject it in your neck and through magnets and AI and a mapping of your particular brain, it goes to the stroke and it eats it and then it comes out.

• 46:08Dan Harris?

  Wow.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Now they have to put catheters up there, which is better than before. Right? Everything has gotten better. And if, sometimes the, the blood clot would break off and go further, which is worse. Right? So there's just this amazing technologies that people are working on, all of which are being decimated by the Trump administration, the stuff we're doing here around. Vaccines alone is murderous, as far as I'm concerned, that we are, we are demonizing a technology that has been so helpful to humanity and keeps us healthy. You know, the fact that measles is back? I mean, I call Robert Kennedy Jr. best friend to measles. And yes, he's right about eating apples, Robert. Thank you. No shit. No shit and apple's good for you. So.

• 46:50Dan Harris?

  Just to double click on what you said before, that we may have a vaccine for pancreatic cancer?

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Yes. Yes. They're working, I just interviewed the guy who's working on it, Sloane Kettering. There's, what they do is they, eventually, this was really interesting, you'll get the vaccine before you get pancreatic cancer. And there's lots of different ways to do this. One is to prevent things that later lead to pancreatic cancer. Another one is to solve the, give you a longer lifespan in the thing. People with pancreatic cancer usually get like six months to two years to live, essentially. The people that are on these vaccines, these specialized vaccines aimed at them, which is how mRNA technology works, they're living eight to nine, like eight to nine years, which is really like, it changes the game.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  And then there's, think about all that expense in that time period of dying, like the amount of, it's expensive to die in our country. Right? Cause we hold, we hold people on that should go and we also can't solve the real problems, which is mobility and stuff. And then the last thing I thought was amazing in Korea was these exoskeletons, that they're working on all these mo devices that are powered by AI and mechanics. It used to be a lot of this stuff was just mechanical, but AI is now involved that. People that can't walk will walk with these exoskeletons. And think about the healthcare implications there, sitting in a chair, all that healthcare. You know, if you could walk and be mobile, it changes your mental outlook, it changes

• 48:19Speaker 02

  your health outlook, and the government is funding them. Lots of experiments, even AI that, you know, I think is quite the way we are putting it out because the companies are in charge of guidelines for AI, and they're always going to try to take advantage of you. In Korea, they're funding a thing, the government is, where old people, they put AI in dolls, like these dolls, and these women who are lonely, like older women are lonely, they give them these dolls, and they learn to play with them, which is always good to play with a doll, like it makes you feel better. And the AI engages with them, the dolls talk to them, and they can respond in real time kind of stuff, like, "How are you doing today?" "I'm bad, oh, the weather's bad." Like, you're talking to a person.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  It solves the loneliness issue they have there, and at the same time, they then bring all the women with the dolls together. But the government is controlling it so it doesn't get out of hand, it doesn't say, "Hey, perhaps you should hang yourself today," which some of this AI does say, to young people especially, so.

• 49:17Dan Harris?

  One thing I'm hearing, and this was a few sentences ago, that the future of healthcare is going to be hyper-personalized.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Yes, it will be, yes.

• 49:26Dan Harris?

  They will understand your body and help you specifically.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Although bodies have a lot of commonality, right? There's a lot of commonality, a lot of things, and that's one of the things that is, you know, we do treat it a little bit too artisanally in the wrong things, and not, we should do more of commonality, but yes, they will be able to, why not use technology for what's good at, which is pattern matching, all manner of things it does well. But to me, they will be able to target your particular cancer cells. And one of the people I interviewed, as much as I give tech people a hard time, was Reid Jobs, the son of Steve Jobs. He's been investing in all manner of stuff, especially because his dad died of pancreatic cancer. But one of the things he was working on was liver cancer and getting rid of, as I believe

• 50:13Speaker 02

  I'm telling it correctly, is if you get Hep B, I think it's Hep B, leads to liver cancer almost all, alcoholism and Hep, I think it's Hep B, not A. And if you can get rid of, you can block Hep B from ever happening, you don't get liver cancer, or a lot of people don't. If you drink too much, you're probably going to get it. And so that's kind of really promising. And I find that really interesting to try to use, you know, these technologies, drug discovery is another one, how quickly like shingles, they didn't think it was for cognitive health, but AI figured that out, right? Like, wow, we would have, we would have gotten there. But think of all the people you can help in the interim that you did. And so that's how I look at technology. And so there's

• 50:57Speaker 02

  all manner of things it's going to be able to, to help us with, but it is not distributed among everybody because it's such a cost to keep people sick. It's such a cost to have the, the amount of money we spend on healthcare is such wasted money. And it's also, it's a happiness deficit, right? Like being sick sucks and it takes the joy out of your life. And, you know, it doesn't allow you to be with your kids. It doesn't, it gets in the way of a lot of things. It makes you miserable. It makes you dependent on drugs. And we did a little psychedelics. I took ketamine.

• 51:28Dan Harris?

  Did you like it?

• 51:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 51:30Dan Harris?

  Why not?

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Because I felt alone and I don't like being alone. I like, I wasn't lonely. I'm never lonely. I wish I was lonely sometimes. I mean, everyone has trauma. It's been shown to have some really great effects on people with PTSD and vets and stuff. I, I, I want them to do lots of experiments. I just talked to Michael Pollan about it just, just last week. There's all manner of interesting experiments being done here and anything to get us off of opiates is aces in my book, essentially. Again, the problem is it's being used recreationally. It's being used as, as a party drug. It's being used not in the ways that could, you know, we need those standard tests to understand what works and what doesn't. I just didn't like it. I, I felt, I felt isolated in a way I didn't enjoy.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  It was also nauseating. I'm not a drug person. I don't, I don't do drugs, but a lot of people like them. They like ayahuasca. They like mushrooms. They like, and I, I'm all for studying like Michael talked about LSD in his last book, you know, because it was demonized by the Nixon administration because all the hippies were trying it out. But there were so many promising studies around LSD that just got, we don't know. So why not do, why don't we find out and try to get that? And I'm all for that.

• 52:42Dan Harris?

  Let me end where we started.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 52:44Dan Harris?

  Because I think one of the things that makes your work in this space distinctive is the fact that you're talking about longevity in the light of death.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Yes, and in the light of technology.

• 52:55Dan Harris?

  Yes, yes, fair point. But let me stick with the death part for a second. You're essentially making the case, and millennia of contemplative history would back you up on this, that contemplating death is actually additive.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  It is, it is. You know, it's funny, I'll get, I'm gonna reach down for my phone here, but one of the things I have on my phone is a thing called We Croak.

• 53:15Dan Harris?

  Oh yeah, I've had the founder on my podcast.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Oh, I love him. He's such a sweetheart. So, you know, with We Croak, it says, one of the things, and well, this is an interesting one, it's, it comes up with quotes and it says, "In Bhutan, they say contemplating death five times daily brings happiness." I absolutely agree with it. Every time, and then this one is, "I think it's always nice to know that you are not alone, even in death." Joe Brainerd. True, it is. I think knowing you're gonna die, as, as I quote Steve Jobs, "is the single greatest gift that, you know, because it spurs you to live your life." And I, I got a lot of inspiration from Steve, who died far too young. He was, he gave that speech at Stanford that was so famous, his, his death speech essentially,

• 53:57Speaker 02

  saying, "Anytime I feel stuck, I think I'm gonna be dead." And I, then I change, and I get up, kinda stuff. And he said, "It's the single greatest invention of life." He's so different than all these people, these narcissistic pricks. He was narcissistic in his own way, but not, he had a much broader thing. And I think in, in, in dying young, the shame was that he was beginning to understand that, like that idea, and was trying to create a life where that, where he was thinking about death. And it was, if you will read any speech, read that speech he did at Stanford about death. And, and I really, I, that really was very profound to me because if you do that, like, I know it sounds dumb, but people are like, "How are you so successful at like changing?"

• 54:40Speaker 02

  Like, I always change things immediately. I try new things. You did, you've done it yourself, right? I was like, "'Cause I'm gonna be dead in 50 years." And they're always like, "What?" I'm like, "That's every time I don't wanna do something, I'm like, 'Oh, hey, guess what? In 50 years, I'll be dead.'" And then I'm like, "Oh, okay, then I'll do it." And so I think it promotes risk, it promotes innovation, it promotes... Not getting dragged down by things as if you're going to be here forever. And I just, I think it gives you freedom. That's what it did for me, at least. I don't know if it does that for you. You've changed, right?

• 55:11Dan Harris?

  Yes. Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Why do you, why do you do what you do?

• 55:14Dan Harris?

  There's the question of why do I do what I do?

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:17Dan Harris?

  Generally, and I think it's kind of summed up in this tattoo I have on my wrist. FTBOAB is just a Buddhist expression, for the benefit of all beings. That's what I do. I'm very clear about my job is to be of use to other human beings.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 55:29Dan Harris?

  So my decisions are made in that light.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  In that light. So it's a service light. Mine more or more, another Buddhist saying, which is, everything is subject to decay. Those that know this are a piece, though, in a world of pain. That's a famous quote, right? And so on my tattoos, let's compare tattoos.

• 55:44Dan Harris?

  You have one?

• 55:45Speaker 02

  I have lots of tattoos. I have, I have lots. These are my four kids, Louis, Clara, Alex, Saul. They're in little hearts. But underneath it is the symbols, and I have a ginkgo leaf on my leg that I hate. It's my first tattoo. I don't like it. It looks like a shamrock and then people think I have a shamrock. And why would I have a fucking shamrock? Like, it's a ginkgo leaf, the greatest, you know, the longest living plant on planet on earth, plant on earth. So this is entropy. Entropy, excuse me. This is entropy, which is all things are subject to decay. All things will be destroyed. No matter, everything's on its way to something else. That's chaos, right? But the opposite, there's always an opposite chemical reaction to everything. This is entropy, which is everything's on its way to something else.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  And so this is about building. And if you're, if you're in the Indian religion, it's Ganesh, destroyer and creator. That's, there's so many themes about that. So these two belong together. Like, yes, it's being destroyed, but guess what? It's like, I'm going to be something. I'm not going to be this table someday, but something else. Like, who knows? Like, and at the end of the show, we talk about it with my brothers. We're eating oysters and I was like, well, they think everything is something else. And we were, I had been talking about my grandmother and we were starting to eat the oyster. I'm like, maybe this is grandma. And then we just go delicious. And it was kind of wonderful that, you know, and that's a famous quote, you know, the, the king eats the thing and then he becomes the worm and then the worm eats the king and then the worm is eaten by the bird who then is eaten by the king.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  And you kind of like that, you're kind of, it's a good policy and yours is in service, which is really nice. I'm not as service orange as you are, which I appreciate.

• 57:22Dan Harris?

  I'm in service at my best.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  I see.

• 57:24Dan Harris?

  In moments where I'm being shitty, it's when I fall out of.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Oh, out of service.

• 57:29Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Others. Yeah. I think of it more like, I know it sounds dumb, but I was at a job I didn't like and, and I thought, I did the death thought. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna be done. I gotta get, I gotta get out of here. I gotta get out of here. And the person who I quit, it was a big job, goes, nobody quits here. I'm like, well, they do. They actually just did. And they're like, why, why are you quitting? And I turned to them, I said, you want to know the truth? And I said, yes. I said, I don't want to talk to you anymore. And they were like, what? And I go, ever. Like, the minutes of my life, tick tock away. And I say that to my kids all the time when they keep me awake. I'm like, tick tock, let's go. And they were like, what? And I go, gotta go. And I just, I couldn't. And like, that was, I was so aware of time. And I think my favorite quote of all time is, I think it's Henry the fourth, I waste time and now death time waste me. I don't waste

• 58:15Speaker 02

  time.

• 58:17Dan Harris?

  And we are all the beneficiaries.

• 58:18Speaker 02

  No, thank you. You too. I think what you're doing is amazing.

• 58:21Dan Harris?

  Thank you. I appreciate it.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:23Dan Harris?

  I'm grateful for your time.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 58:25Dan Harris?

  For your work.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  Good.

• 58:26Dan Harris?

  This was awesome.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 58:28Dan Harris?

  Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go, if you enjoy this show, please do me slash us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute, it's free, and it really helps new people find us and spread the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you. Sincerely, I mean it. Thank you.

• 59:18Speaker 04

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