#757 Earning Passive Bitcoin w/ Zac Prince

Zac Prince is the CEO of BlockFi In this conversation, we go on a deep dive into BlockFi's product suite and discuss the Bitcoin Rewards Credit Card, Earning Rewards In Other Cryptocurrencies, Interest Accounts, BlockFi's regulatory update, and future products. ======================= Mode, UK Fintech app, allows you to buy, earn and grow Bitcoin, all in one app. Not only is it an easy and safe way to buy and hold Bitcoin, with Mode you can shop and receive up to 10% Bitcoin Cashback for FREE from its growing list of online partner brands. Available on the App Store and Google Play. Download Mode at modeapp.com and enjoy 0% trading fees on all buys and sells until Dec 31, 2021. Only available in the UK. ======================= Cryptocurrency is the future, so don’t get left in the past, bet with MyBookie and you can get in the game now! To get you kickstarted with crypto, use my promo code (POMP) to double your first crypto deposit at MyBookie. The best part is, MyBookie accepts well-known crypto currencies like Bitcoin, Litecoin, and Ethereum so you can bet and withdraw with Crypto. The NFL Playoffs are around the corner and this week the Buffalo Bills and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers will face off in a potential Super Bowl preview. Both teams sit 1 win away from earning the top spot in their respective conference, but in this high stakes game, bet the Buc’s Moneyline. Don’t miss out, double your first deposit up to $1000 by using promo code [POMP]. Head to MyBookie today, place your bets, and watch the sparks fly with UFC269. Bet anything, anytime, anywhere…with MyBookie. Visit http://mybookie.website/joinwithPOMP ======================= Do you want a new job in the bitcoin and crypto industry? You should go apply for hundreds of open roles at http://www.pompcryptojobs.com or sign up for our training program at http://www.pompscryptocourse.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Zach Prince is the co-founder and CEO of BlockFi, an asset management firm specifically built for crypto investors. I'm an investor in the business, I'm a big fan of Zach, and it's incredible what they've built so far. In this conversation, we discussed everything from the Bitcoin reward credit card that they recently launched, to how BlockFi is doing, regulation, and what their future product roadmap looks like. This conversation is packed with information, so I hope you enjoy it. But before we get into this episode, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is Mode. UK Bitcoin investors, listen up. Mode is an app that allows you to buy, earn,

• 0:44Anthony Pompliano?

  and grow Bitcoin effortlessly. Not only is it an easy and safe way to buy and hold Bitcoin, Mode also allows you to pay and receive up to 10% Bitcoin cash back for free from its growing list of online partner brands. For a limited period of time, Mode is offering 0% trading fees on all Bitcoin buys and sells. That's right, you can buy and sell Bitcoin and pay no trading fees. The offer ends at the end of this year, so hurry up and download the app now. I have to say, personally, I think the company behind this app is very, very impressive. They're an FCA registered, they're listed on a public exchange in both the LSE and the OTC QB market here in the US. They choose to hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet, big deal. They were the first

• 1:29Anthony Pompliano?

  UK-based company publicly traded to hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet, and they are also piloting a Bitcoin payroll product to pay UK employees in Bitcoin. So if you're in the UK, I recommend you go check out Mode right now. Their app's available on the App Store and the Google Play Store. You can download the app now and start buying Bitcoin with 0% trading fees today. If you're not in the UK, go check them out on the public stock exchange as well. Next up is MyBookie. Cryptocurrency is the future, so don't get left in the past. You can bet with MyBookie, and you can get in the game now. To get you kickstarted with crypto, you can use promo code POMP to double your first crypto deposit at MyBookie. The best part is that MyBookie accepts

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Well-known cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and others, so you can bet and withdraw with crypto. The NFL playoffs are around the corner and this week, the Buffalo Bills and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers will face off in a potential Super Bowl preview. Both teams sit one win away from earning the top spot in their respective conference. But in this high stakes game, bet the Bucks money line. Don't miss out. Double your first deposit up to $1,000 by using promo code POMP. Head over to mybookie today, place your bets and watch the sparks fly with UFC 269 as well. Bet anything, anytime, anywhere with mybookie. Just go to mybookie website today. Last but not least, if you are looking for a job in the cryptocurrency industry, whether you're coming from the finance world, the technology world, wherever you're coming from,

• 2:55Anthony Pompliano?

  you're looking for a job, make sure that you go to pompcryptojobs.com. Pompcryptojobs.com. We've got hundreds of open roles there from the industry's top companies. There's been over a couple hundred people that have already been hired this year. One company's hired almost 40 people this year off pompcryptojobs.com. So if you're looking for a job, go to pompcryptojobs today and you will find the best open roles that you have to offer. All right, let's get into this episode. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Zach, what's going on?

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Good to see you, man.

• 3:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Good to see you as well. I've got two of my brothers, Joe and John here. One of them is having a little issue today. He's eaten a whole buffet and got coffee falling out of his mouth. I don't know what's going on, but you got a whole bunch of stuff happening. Let's first talk about the credit card. I've probably told everyone on this show a million times about the credit card. Maybe they hearing it from you would be better in terms of how it works.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure thing. So, I mean, if you've been living under a rock and haven't heard, we're, you know, we're First company in the world to launch a Bitcoin rewards credit card. This is it right here. I'll see if I can get a little clink sound. You know, it's a nice metal card. It's the world's first card that lets you earn Bitcoin instead of regular cash back or airline miles. So you get three and a half percent cash back on in Bitcoin for your first 90 days of having the card. One and a half percent cash back on every purchase after that. And there's a bunch of other benefits across the platform. You get rebates on your trading volumes. You get higher refer friend bonuses. And actually, right now, through the end of the year, we're running a promotion where if you sign up for the card

• 4:59Speaker 02

  and make your first transaction before the end of January, we give you 75 bucks on our platform that you can use to buy Bitcoin. So the card's been live since the summer. I've got some interesting stats to share with you, but that's the card at a high level. It's still really the only premium card in the market right now that lets you, you know, spend credit and earn Bitcoin.

• 5:19Anthony Pompliano?

  So I went back and I looked at the rewards that I've been earning. And you're going to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think you earn, what is it? Three or four percent for the first like 90 days and then one and a half percent after that?

• 5:32Speaker 02

  That's right. Three and a half percent for the first 90 days, one and a half percent on every transaction after that.

• 5:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so those numbers, they seem like kind of what I would consider normal credit card type returns, maybe on the higher end of a normal range. But you get paid in Bitcoin. Obviously Bitcoin's price has gone up, especially since over the summer when you guys launched it. And so at one point I went and I looked and I had earned eight percent back on my purchases. And I was sitting there thinking to myself like, damn, every time I swipe this card, if I just keep thinking it's going to be some big percentage, whatever the percentage ends up being, five percent or, you know, 25%, I'm going to spend more money. Like this is a problem. And what I realized was there's really no other way to get outsized kind of rebates or rewards other than you get paid in an asset that then appreciates in price, right? Like this has to be on the actual, like almost like real return basis,

• 6:22Anthony Pompliano?

  the highest reward credit card if Bitcoin continues to go up over time, right?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, look, it's changing the game. Earning airline miles or cash back. You are guaranteed that over time, those rewards that you're getting are going to be worth less. And you know, I believe and I know you believe that if you're earning Bitcoin regularly and you have a long-term, you know, time horizon, the Bitcoin is going to be worth more. So you know what that translates into for our cardholders is exactly what you described. Yes, it's a three and a half or a one and a half percent rate like the day that you make the swipe, but over time, it becomes a much higher effective cash back rate as Bitcoin, you know, appreciates in value. So, you know, people are catching on to this. Like we've, we've done a few surveys with our card holding clients and

• 7:11Speaker 02

  we've gotten some interesting data out of them. First off, in six months since we launched the card, we're already on track for folks to spend $2 billion on the card in the first year. And already we've provided over 200 Bitcoin in rewards to our cardholders, which is over, you know, $10 million at the current price. Furthermore, 90% of the folks that have the card are still holding on to every Bitcoin reward that they receive. So we're enabling folks that want more Bitcoin to get it. They're holding on to it. We're also making it easy for folks to, you know, come get their hands on Bitcoin when maybe, you know, they haven't been as active in the market before and they're looking for an

• 7:54Speaker 02

  easy way to start earning Bitcoin. So we found that over two thirds of our cardholders are spending less on their traditional cash back cards and 50% of the folks that have the BlockFi card are using it for more than 75% of their transactions now.

• 8:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow. So, all right. How, do you guys release how many cards are actually out in the market yet? Like, what's the last public number you've released?

• 8:19Speaker 02

  We're at about 75,000 cards at the bottom of the funnel, meaning somebody has received the card, activated it and already made a purchase.

• 8:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. So we got 75,000 cards kind of in people's hands. Maybe is the way to kind of talk about it. And they're on track to spend $2 billion through this card, which for people who don't know, what it from like a Visa perspective, that's a great launch? That's a like a market leading one? Is that average? How does that stack up? Up against other types of cards that they've done.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, Visa's been blown away. Our bank partners on the card have been blown away. It's like the, they've called it the most enthusiastic credit card launch that they've ever seen.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  And, you know, that's because folks understand the value and they, similar to you, once they get the card and start using it, they see the Bitcoin price go up, they do the math and they get really excited about it. I mean, I know personally, I'm doing all of my spending, you know, on this card now and it's been a tremendous launch, you know, an average premium credit card monthly spend, Visa, Mastercard or Amex is around 1,500 bucks. Right now, the average monthly spend on a BlockFi card is about 3,000.

• 9:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then talk to us about this number, like 89, 90%, I think of people have not sold the Bitcoin that they've earned. John and I were talking about it earlier and we were just blown away by how big of a number that is. Like, what do you think feeds into that? It's just Bitcoin holders in general tend to hold it?

• 9:45Speaker 02

  It's all the training that you and your brothers give people watching the show. Hang on to your, hang on to your Bitcoin. But the other thing is, you know, what BlockFi is probably most well known for is our interest account product. We're one of the first places in the world where you can hold Bitcoin on our platform and earn interest on your Bitcoin, in Bitcoin. So folks are earning these rewards from spending on the card. That Bitcoin then goes into their interest account product and compounds even further because as your Bitcoin balance grows, you earn more interest on it in that account. So, you know, the general behavior that we see on our platform is folks are net buyers of Bitcoin. They want to accumulate more Bitcoin. And this card is really just helping facilitate that and accelerate the trend that was already in place with our clients.

• 10:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. And then talk to me about the difference between a personal credit card and a corporate card. These are only for individuals today? Or can businesses also get them?

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Right now, it's just for individuals. Hopefully, you know, by the midpoint of next year, we'll have an option where you can get a card in the name of your business.

• 10:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. And Joe, John, what questions do you guys have in terms of the credit card and kind of this launch? It's just absolutely. Really insane when you start looking at these numbers.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  Is there a waitlist for the card now or no?

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Uh, no, there, there was a waitlist, uh, before launching, but i- if you hear anyone say, "Oh yeah, I was on the waitlist, you know, I don't know when my card's coming." The waitlist period is over. In our app or on our website, on our website now, you can, you know, two, three clicks, actually apply for the card, get approved, uh, and then receive it, uh, you know, in the mail a few days after that.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Gotcha. Can you talk about the different rewards? So can you get, you can obviously get Bitcoin in return? Can you do cash back? Can you do other cryptocurrencies? And then like, what are people using it for?

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you can, you can select to earn your rewards in any of the cryptocurrencies or stable coins that are supported on our platform. So if you decide I'd rather be earning Ethereum this month, or, you know, Uniswap, or Litecoin, uh, or actually if I just want, you know, to increase my cash balance on the BlockFi platform where I earn 9% on the cash that I hold in the form of stable coins at BlockFi, uh, you can do that as well. Um, we see the vast majority of people, uh, just stick with the Bitcoin option. Um, but we launched that, you know, Flex Rewards feature, uh, about six weeks ago. Um, and I think around, uh, 15% of people have, have elected to, you know, get the rewards in a different currency, uh, than Bitcoin so far.

• 12:12Anthony Pompliano?

  So I've got a bunch of questions coming in from the chat. I'll just kind of fire them off at you and you, uh, you answer. Uh, first is, uh, US versus international markets. Uh, the card itself, where is it available? And if it's not available in some markets, do you have any sort of timeline for when that will become available?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's only available in the US market today in every state except New York. Um, we intend to launch a, a card that will be available outside the US, probably starting with, uh, Canada and as many Western European markets as, as we can get, um, in the second half of next year.

• 12:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. People are asking, uh, in terms of interest rates in the interest-bearing, uh, accounts. Help folks understand, actually, this is one of probably the biggest misconceptions is how those interest rates actually get determined and why they are variable in nature.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Uh, sure. So, um, if you go to blockFi.com slash rates, uh, you can always see our rates. Uh, we, you know, only change the- The rates on our platform once a month, which is very different versus like DeFi, for example, where the rates are, you know, variable 24/7 and could, you know, increase or decrease in a short amount of time. So we change the rates once a month and we, you know, set and manage the rates based on market conditions. And the market conditions in this context is really the institutional and retail borrowing market for dollars and for cryptocurrencies. So, directionally speaking, when the cryptocurrency

• 13:38Speaker 02

  market is bullish, we see a greater demand to borrow dollars. And when the cryptocurrency market is bearish, we see a greater demand to borrow cryptocurrencies. So you'll see us, you know, directionally speaking, when the market gets really bullish, decreasing the rates we offer on cryptocurrencies and increasing the rates we offer on dollars. And when the market gets bearish, the reverse, you'll see us decreasing rates on dollars and increasing rates on cryptocurrencies.

• 14:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. There's some questions around when people will be able to pay off the credit card balance using USDC or other stable coins versus fiat?

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so let's talk about the roadmap for the card. So the card is great already, but we have, you know, a lot of new features that we want to introduce on the card. And we're hoping to knock all of these out in the first half of next year. The three new things that we want to introduce to the card are a merchant partner program where you'll get a higher cash back rate that select, you know, premium merchants that want to, you know, advertise to, you know, our universe of cardholders. So imagine instead of getting one and a half percent cash back at, you know, Best Buy, you're getting 10% cash back. Or at Amazon, you're getting 5% cash back. Not to say that those are specific retailers

• 14:58Speaker 02

  that will be coming out with, but that type of concept. So higher cash back rates at select merchants is coming. Being able to pay off your balance with stable coins that you hold at BlockFi is coming. And we're also planning on launching a roundup feature where if you want to, you can select An option to round up every transaction that you make on the card to the nearest dollar and have that, you know, roundup amount also get converted into Bitcoin on your regular reward cycle.

• 15:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's, it's pretty cool. Once you have the card in people's hands, how quickly you can iterate and kind of add all of this functionality. And obviously, as an investor in the business, I'll say it, I don't know if you're allowed to say it, but you just make it better and better over time. Right. And it's like, if you keep doing that, then it serves, serves customers well. There's a ton of people asking about regulation. I'm gonna leave this as open ended as I possibly can and just let you take the floor. But what's going on from a regulatory standpoint, at least what you're allowed to say publicly?

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Sure. I mean, look, obviously, we're in a, we're in a massive, you know, a massive education period and a very critical moment in time for not just BlockFi, but the broader crypto industry in terms of regulation. We've seen a hearing at the House, we've seen a hearing at the Senate. There's questions about stable coins, there's questions about whether our interest account products or things in the DeFi market are securities or not. And, you know, we're kind of at the forefront of receiving some regulatory attention and working to, you know, help protect our clients, you know, right to earn interest on their, on their cryptocurrency and stable coins.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  And, you know, on the BlockFi platform, leveraging our, you know, risk management and kind of trusted brand that we've built up over the years. And also trying to work with regulators to help them understand what's going on, you know, create appropriate structures. And it's, it's not the most fun part of my job, but, but we are making good progress and I'm feeling optimistic. For anyone that wasn't, you know, following along in the news, last, this past summer, about five months ago, BlockFi received a cease and desist order from New Jersey and then followed by a couple of other states, suggesting that we need to stop signing up new clients for our interest account product.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Fortunately, as a result of the conversations that we've been having with regulators, none of Those orders have gone into effect and I'm really confident and hopeful that early next year we'll be able to come out and talk publicly and share information with everyone in terms of what the conclusion will be on these regulatory conversations. But in any case, BlockFi's objective is to do what's best for our clients. We think that means protecting and advocating for their right to earn interest on cryptocurrencies. We think we can do that in a safe, sound, and perfectly compliant manner with any and all existing regulations. And that's what we're working on. But this is an interesting moment in time. I'm sure you all talked about what's

• 18:03Speaker 02

  happening at these hearings. And ultimately, I think there's a positive element to all of this, which is that, hey, this industry that we at BlockFi, you, Pomp, and so many others have been working so hard on building and growing and advocating for is now big enough that we're getting this federal level attention in the US. There will be some things that change. There will be some clarity provided. And what we're fighting for is to make that as constructive and positive for the industry as it possibly can be.

• 18:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I think your insight into the idea that, one, we've gotten to this point. Like, that's pretty incredible. It is often lost in the conversation. And then, two, also, is I do think that you bring somewhat of an optimist view to this, where a lot of people bring a pessimistic view, which is when there is a conversation, which essentially is happening right now among almost every single one of the largest companies in the industry, from what I know, and regulators or politicians, even central bankers to some degree. You can either look at it as an opportunity to educate, or you can look at it as an opportunity to be attacked, right? And I think that those two different mindsets will ultimately determine how a lot of people interact here. And frankly, I'm pretty bullish on the people who are educating,

• 19:21Anthony Pompliano?

  because we've seen in some of the recent hearings, politicians, two, three years ago, the questions from an accuracy standpoint and maybe an enthusiasm standpoint don't look like they look now, right? I think now is People kind of say, hey, you know what, like, I think I tweeted, I was like, I think these people are going to get kind of red pilled. Like, like, they're going to see like, oh, wait, this is what these technologists see as an opportunity. And it just takes time, right? So I think that's awesome. And you guys are doing great work there.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Look, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, optimism, forward thinking and technology win, right? We can think that we're playing a game of cops and robbers. But the reality is, like, in America, we're all on the same team. And crypto is not an issue that's about Democrat or Republican. Or, you know, is it good or is it bad? It's here, it's not going anywhere. It's a new technology. Just like every other new technology that we've benefited from so greatly in the US in terms of having the biggest companies built here. And, you know, our economy helping to facilitate these things, we should be doing that with crypto. And that's a message that I think everyone gets. It's just a matter of education.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  But I agree with you, like, three or four years ago, if the conversation even happened, the questions would be so outlandish and reflect a fundamental misunderstanding. Now there are legitimate advocates across many parts of government who are very well educated. There's a lot of people still on the fence, still educating themselves and trying to develop their view. And there's a few that are just out in left field, but that's the minority, you know, and we're going to end up in a good spot and the industry is going to keep growing.

• 21:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I completely agree. I've got two more questions for you and then we'll let you go. First is, you guys, when you launched this credit card, had a massive marketing campaign, billboards, airports, you know, buses. I mean, just everything. It seemed like BlockFi was everywhere. I think one of the things that has changed is that, one, companies are big enough to do that. Two, they're sophisticated enough. How did you guys think about, you know, should we just like run Facebook ads versus do what's more of kind of like an analog marketing campaign like that? And then how do you think of that marketing campaign as part of the success? Like, how integral was it of the card's success that you've seen so far?

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, so generally, we try to be super data driven in our marketing, which generally means less, you know, out of home advertising and more. Kind of, you know, digital channels where you can measure things really effectively. We were just so amped up about the credit card launch and wanted to kind of, you know, poke fun at that airline miles that we were like, we're gonna, we're gonna test the big out of home campaign at airports and, you know, train stations and, you know, the direct data that we gleaned from that doesn't really, you know, didn't really support us continuing to do it at large scale. But I'm sure there were some, you know, qualitative brand effects that, uh, that we got from it that, you know, are hard to measure, but, but really valuable to, uh, to our business.

• 22:19Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And the last question is, a lot of people are asking, uh, we talked about kind of what's coming for the credit card next. Are there other products, other services, things that you're thinking about for the overall business? If you kind of just zoom out and think of the BlockFi business in totality, what else is coming in 2022 or 2023?

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. So, I mean, look, our, our big focus is, uh, on the retail side of the platform is, um, payments. Uh, that means a few things, enhancements to the credit card product, launching a debit card product, uh, and, and adding more, you know, payment channels so that our clients in the U.S. or around the world can more easily move money on to and off of our platform. And then on the institutional side of our platform, we're really focused on trading. Um, we expanded into, you know, real time spot markets this year. We'll be adding derivatives next year for our institutional clients. Maybe some of that will trickle through to the retail platform. Um, we're going to be adding a lot of cryptocurrencies that folks can, uh, trade early next year.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  And I think we'll be doing some interesting things with, uh, kind of crypto native functionality like staking, uh, and potentially even DeFi over time. So there's no shortage of things to work on.

• 23:27Anthony Pompliano?

  So I used to say all the time, uh, long Bitcoin, short the bankers. I feel like now I should be like long BlockFi, short the bankers as well. I feel like you guys have now entered into that realm. So, uh, I'm obviously a huge fan of what you guys are doing and it's been pretty incredible to watch this whole thing get built. You guys are doing a great job and we'll definitely have to bring you back again as you continue to progress. Where can we send people to find you on the internet? Cause my favorite thing, by the way, hold on, I actually gotta tell this to you. I'm gonna say this publicly. My favorite thing that Zach tweets is when prices go down, book it. 25, uh, point two five Bitcoin purchase coming out. Sure, I know this.

• 24:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Every time.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  I stole it from you, Pomp. I'm still trying to find this. Yeah, that's my Twitter. I'm at BlockFiZach. Our corporate handle is at BlockFi. BlockFi.com is the website. We're in every app store with the BlockFi app.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  I still want to find this video, Pomp. You'll need to get your your research team or, you know, one of your brothers to find the CNBC video.

• 24:25Anthony Pompliano?

  We have it.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  You have it?

• 24:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, we'll send it to you. We have it.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  I'm waiting. That's what I'm thinking of every time. You went on CNBC. We were coming from like, you know, we were somewhere on the path from 20K down to 3K. And and they were and you were just like, I'm buying it. I've been buying it all the way down. I'm going to keep buying it no matter how low it goes. And they were like, oh, really, Pomp? All the way down? And you were like, all the way down.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  It was like laser, you know, it's like all this stuff. And that's what I think of. But look, I'm from before I started BlockFi, I view this as a long term, you know, asset that's going to produce tremendous risk adjusted returns. The data proves that out before I invested, since I've invested. You don't have to overcomplicate it. If you just buy and you can, you know, be strong enough to not freak out when the inevitable volatility that, you know, this asset class has comes around, you're going to do phenomenal. And I one way I try to remind people of that is just like in those moments where you might be getting a little nervous, I'm like, I'm buying.

• 25:30Anthony Pompliano?

  That tends to be a pretty good time, right? When prices go down, there's somebody who once told me like, maybe it was Mark Yousk, I forget who told me this, but they said, never sell on big days down, right? Like, like the panic sell, like if it's down 10%, like that's a clear signal like you're not allowed to sell today, right? And in fact, it's probably actually the better.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Sell on down days and don't buy on up days.

• 25:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Exactly. You got it, man. All right. Listen, thank you so much for doing this. If folks haven't gone and checked out the BlockFi credit card, I've dropped the link in the chat. Go check that out. And Zach will definitely bring you back in the new year. So if we don't talk, have a great holidays and long BlockFi, short the bankers.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, guys.

• 26:09Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, later, buddy.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Happy holidays.