Helen Glover on progress over perfection: shift your perspective on success

You’ve got to give new things a go and not give up when you’re a bit crap at first. Team GB Olympic rower Helen Glover is clear that a huge part of her success is thanks to her mindset that it’s better to try and fail than not try at all. In this chat with Fearne, Helen explains how to have the discipline to stick at stuff that feels important to you, even if it doesn’t always feel easy. By her own admission, Helen “couldn’t have been further from an Olympian” when she started training... At Tokyo 2020, Helen was the first mum to represent Great Britain in rowing at an Olympic Games. She’s passionate about pushing back on the perception that age or parenthood should be a barrier in anything you’re trying to achieve. She and Fearne unpick the narrative that says women probably won’t be all that ambitious once they’ve had kids! Plus, what’s the weirdest place you’ve found yourself breastfeeding in? Fearne and Helen share theirs... If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Molly McCann https://pod.fo/e/240297 Leah Williamson https://pod.fo/e/26e9fe Adele Roberts https://pod.fo/e/22e78e Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the place where just showing up is more than enough. We don't need to be perfect here. Today, I'm chatting to Helen Glover, MBE. Thank you very much.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  It doesn't always have to look from the outside like this Lilia progress, like you're always seeing outcomes and results. And I think if you can finish the day and know that you've given it your best, even if you haven't seen through everything that you hope to achieve that day, if you've not even given it your best, giving it a go, showing up, being there is sometimes enough. And just kind of at some point, you have to trust that you'll emerge in just that tiny bit closer to your goal. It's so much better to try and fail than to never know.

• 1:12Fearne Cotton?

  How are you all doing? I hope you're good. I really need to start Christmas shopping. I don't know what's happened to me this year. Normally, I'm so organised and I start sort of mid-October. I am in a right tis. I haven't done anything. I've bought like two presents, I don't even know who they're for, and I keep doing that thing of looking online and then I end up buying myself a pair of trainers I don't need and nothing for anyone else. So that's, that's becoming problematic. I'm going to get on it, I'm going to get organised. But look, wherever you're at with it, it's all going to be fine. It's all going to come out in the wash. We're going to be all right. We've got this, we've got this. And I am really up for a mulled wine, so that's going to help ease the pain of it all too. So, on to today's podcast, which I'm really excited about because Helen is someone that

• 1:56Fearne Cotton?

  I hugely admire. She's a two-time Olympic champion, triple world champion and a quadruple European champion in rowing. At Tokyo in 2020, Helen was the first mum To represent Great Britain in rowing at an Olympic Games. That is a huge moment in the history of a sport. It's massive. She's super passionate about pushing back on the perception that age, really important one, or parenthood should be a barrier in anything you're trying to achieve. I'm really excited for you to hear her talk about that because it's bloody important. But the thing is, success as an elite athlete wasn't necessarily part of her life plan. In fact, rowing in general wasn't really part of the plan at all.

• 2:40Fearne Cotton?

  In her words, Helen couldn't have been further from an Olympian when she started training. That is something I was really interested in. Giving things a go and not giving up because I think most of us, I'm definitely talking for myself here. When we try something new, if we're not good at it, we think, yeah, sod that, I'm out, I don't want to do it. But Helen didn't do that and I'm really intrigued as to why and how. Also, just chatting about motherhood, I know that many of you that listen will have kids and will find the juggle really difficult, getting the balance almost impossible. And also losing parts of yourself during parenthood, which is extremely common, but probably not talked about enough, where we don't do things as frequently that we're really passionate about because there isn't time.

• 3:25Fearne Cotton?

  But also we feel stretched just emotionally and physically. And how you can try and bridge the two, parenting and being very passionate about something. So I'm really excited for you to hear that too.

• 3:38Speaker 03

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• 4:39Speaker 06

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• 5:13Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's crack on with the show then. And I just noticed that I'd turned up to meet Helen a little bit messy. So that was an excellent start to the day.

• 5:42Fearne Cotton?

  I've got like some sort of toothpaste something in my jumper. That's not a good start. Crikey, that's me rushing out the door. Hello, Helen.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 5:51Fearne Cotton?

  I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

• 5:56Fearne Cotton?

  It feels like a long time coming. I've wanted to chat to you for a long time about everything you've done and achieved and continue to juggle. Let's start with this year because you've had an insane year. Have your feet touched the ground yet?

• 6:09Speaker 02

  I think just about. They've just touched the ground. Now the kids have gone to school. I've kind of managed to look back and think, what on earth has just happened? And how did, how did that just happen? So yeah, just, just now, just this last couple of weeks, I think it started to really settle in.

• 6:26Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, that's it because like after the Olympics, you were just being a mum the next day. Like there's no, oh, I'm gonna have a week where I just chill and I think about everything that I've just been through with training and the actual Olympics. You're just then making breakfast and you're straight into the rhythm of being a mum. It's crazy.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Which weirdly helps me.

• 6:45Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think when I look back to London and Rio and those Olympics, the next day or the next moment that you're back home and doing the dishes, it's just this nothingness. And everyone thinks that your life changes the moment you win an Olympic medal or something. And, and actually the essence of you and what your life is is exactly the same. And so to have the kids and have to be mum and to have you, to not be the most important person in the room because my kids are, it's just really actually grounding and really important for me.

• 7:14Fearne Cotton?

  They don't care if you've won a medal or not. They're like, get me the cereal now.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, if their Weetabix isn't done right.

• 7:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  You know about it.

• 7:21Fearne Cotton?

  We've all been there. Um, I heard you interview just before Paris and you said that you really wanted a medal. You were quite clear about that, otherwise why are you doing it? You wanted to come back with a medal. You came back with a silver. What was that feeling? Was it a contentment? Was it a relief? What were you feeling?

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Probably a bit of both. I think that I already always pictured my kids on the finish line and being there and, and getting out my boat and standing on the podium in front of them. And if I hadn't had that moment, I think I would have just been really devastated. Cause I think when I got to Tokyo, it was all about getting there as a mum and proving a point. And that point had been proven, that had been done. I really wanted to show that it wasn't just getting there, it was getting there and, and being good enough. And so, yeah, it was definitely a lot of relief and kind of, but also just this real satisfaction that I'd shared this moment with them.

• 8:12Fearne Cotton?

  That's so amazing. I mean, imagine when they're sort of eighteen and you can sit back and watch it together as a family. Like, I'm projecting quite far into the future there, but it's so special.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  I think so. But I mean, we made the mistake, though, of, in the same week, they also went to Disneyland.

• 8:29Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, wow.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  And so when they got back home, everyone was like, how was it, kids? And they were like, it was amazing. The rides were so good. And they were like, no, watching your mum at the Olympics, how was that?

• 8:40Fearne Cotton?

  Well, you're just their mum, aren't you? Like, that's it. It's always almost grounding thing is that you're just their mum.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 8:46Fearne Cotton?

  And Mickey Mouse comes first in this occasion. Always. I mean, you've had a real windy path to get to where you are today. In terms of elite sport, you started rowing quite late. You were twenty-one when you discovered it. When you first got in a boat, was there this sort of affinity that you instantly felt with the sport?

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Not really, no. I mean, when you first would have seen me, I looked like I was doing a totally different sport. But the way I got into it was through talent ID. So when London had been given the Games, they did a big talent ID drive for, it was really for tall people. So handball, volleyball and rowing, it helps have long levers. And I was kind of tested and directed towards rowing. And it was four years before the Games and I remember thinking, this is probably something that's not going to go anywhere.

• 9:32Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 9:32Speaker 02

  I'm probably going to be rubbish at this. But I, it was the one time in my life that I was fully prepared. I realised, I think, I had never actually given my all to anything. I'd never fully just immersed myself in something to be the best I can be. I'd really coasted through quite a lot of things in life. I probably had the maturity kind of coming out of my teens and going, right, if, if you're going to do it, it has to be now. And so I didn't care if I enjoyed it. I didn't care if I started off any good at it, but I was going to give it my all.

• 10:04Fearne Cotton?

  That's such an interesting gear change because would you say, like, your personality is all or nothing naturally?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  I think it is now, but it probably wasn't before I met rowing.

• 10:15Fearne Cotton?

  But how interesting, because I think most of us assume that you turn up in the world and you have a set of traits that see you through life. But actually, you've cultivated that feeling of all or nothing, I'm all in on this.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  I think so. I think there were some things that were really like intrinsically there, my competitiveness. I had a real grit to me when I was younger. I do remember vividly kind of doing cross-country on rainy days and or swimming galas. Where I was really fiercely competitive and I wanted to train hard and do these things. But the all or nothing mentality of really sticking at something and doing everything that needed to be done to be good at it. I don't think I really did until I found rowing. And now I'm probably much better at that. Now if I put my mind to something, I know I have the tools to go ahead and do it.

• 11:03Fearne Cotton?

  How do you stick at something that you're not instantly good at? Because I think most of the time when we start a new hobby or we want to try something for the first time. If we're not kind of okay at it, straight away we think, fuck that, I'm out, I don't want to do that. This is a waste of time. How do you push through that barrier of I'm just gonna see this through? I have it, for instance, with learning a language. I'm desperate to learn Spanish and I get to a certain point and I think, oh, I can't do all of the masculine feminine stuff and the different. You want, I want, they want, I'm out, I'm done and I can't persevere. What gets you through that bit?

• 11:41Speaker 02

  That's so true. I think for me, there were two things. One, it was the people around me. I was, because I went through this system, I was really lucky that I ended up with a coach who believed in me.

• 11:50Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  I was selected for that reason. He saw potential in me when I couldn't see it in myself. And so Paul, my first coach, when I said to him, I just think I'm gonna be a bit rubbish. I'm, I'm not the same as the other girls, I'm this, I'm that. And he, he just had this underlying belief that I could get there.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  So the people around you is really important. But the other thing that I really, I think I take into life with me is it's so much better to try and fail than to never know. And I just think actually the end result doesn't matter as much as being able to look yourself in the mirror and go, I gave that a really good go.

• 12:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's a tough one, isn't it? Because I think you've got to have such mental resilience to keep that in mind when you're having a crappy day, when everything's going a bit wrong and you just think, what am I doing? And there's a temptation to maybe feel a bit lost in that. If you're not seeing direct results, you're not getting the results that you want. I think it's hard to stay on that. It's a very strict path that you've got to follow, especially in sport.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. And then I think that's where people need to be really kind to themselves is that it doesn't always have to look from the outside like this lilia progress, like you're always seeing outcomes and results. And I think if you can finish the day and know that you've given it your best, even if you haven't seen through everything that you hoped to achieve that day, if you've not even given it your best, giving it a go, showing up, sometimes that, sometimes just turning up that day is enough.

• 13:17Fearne Cotton?

  Sometimes average is enough. And it's really hard to accept that. I hate accepting that one. I'm like, but I wanted it to be perfect. Like, average is okay.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, just staying, staying on that line, staying on that treadmill, just being there is sometimes enough. And just kind of, at some point, at some point, you have to trust that you'll emerge in just that tiny bit closer to your goal. And it will happen, whatever your goal is, it will happen, you will make that small step. But I think if you can surround yourself with people who are a positive influence, that's always going to be a really important step.

• 13:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I need someone who believes I can speak Spanish in my life. Oh, never. So at what point in this four-year period, leading up to London, did you think, hmm, we could be in with a chance here?

• 14:04Speaker 02

  It was about two years out. So for the first two years, I couldn't have been further from an Olympian. I was working as a PE teacher at the time to fund my training. It was, it was so hard. And I look back now and I think that was definitely the hardest bit of that early part of my career. I was trying to beat girls on the team who were in full-time training and I was trying to juggle my teaching at the same time. And then I met Heather Stanning, who was my pairs partner, and we just clicked really well together. And two years out from the Olympics, we started rowing together, went to a world championships and honestly surprised everyone, including ourselves, by winning a silver medal. And from that point on, we were just on this mission.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  We couldn't quite believe that it was happening to us, but it clicked, it worked, and we didn't leave that combination. And so when we were selected together for 2012, we were suddenly favourites in our event to go and win the gold medal at a home games. And so very quickly, our trajectory had just totally changed.

• 15:09Fearne Cotton?

  It's incredible. I mean, you went into that Olympics pretty anonymous.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:13Fearne Cotton?

  Which you don't have the luxury of these days. You were flag bearer this time round, all eyes on you. Was it liberating going in, having no one really looking at what you were doing? That yes, there's maybe some expectations from, you know, the Team GB and your coaches, everyone knowing your potential. But to the wider audience, people don't know who you are, what you're capable of. Is that freeing?

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Oh, and it was so intentional as well. If any interviews came our way, we turned them down. We just, you know, you can only be an underdog once. And so we wanted to go into it as the underdogs. And like you say, really, the only people who had expectation of us were the people who know about rowing. And it was that small bubble of people who follow the sport and who knew that we were on a winning streak. But actually, going into a home games, we had enough pressure as it was. And so it just felt, it just felt about right, you know, going in with a little bit of pressure, but mainly excitement. And I mean, that definitely changed when we came up to the day of our final on day five, because we hadn't won. As a Team GB, we hadn't won a gold medal. And so going into it, knowing that we were hoping to be the first gold for Team GB, we were just hoping to

• 16:20Speaker 02

  kind of just get away with it, you know, just, just race, hopefully win and just be one of many. And at that point, it hadn't happened. So the pressure definitely shifted on that morning. Because we realised that people were being told to tune in, were being pushed our direction to watch for the first gold. And so that, that definitely, we kind of wanted to be like, no, we're doing this quietly, remember?

• 16:42Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, but just that then. Give you an extra surge of motivation and strength to get the gold? Or is it, are there points where it's just so overwhelming? That you know, how, when you're on that start line and you know that people are tuning in? You know that there's this pressure that you could be the first home gold medal? How the bloody hell do you get in the headspace where you're just rowing? And you just block that out?

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we definitely, rather than kind of stepping into it, we retracted from the reality of the Olympic Games. So we convinced ourselves so fully that this was not the Olympic Games. The last thing our coach said to us before we went on the water was, this is just another race. You're racing the same girls in the same boats, just on a piece of water. Just go and, just go and race. And in that moment, it really helped my headspace. It normalized the situation totally for me. But when I finished the race, I couldn't call myself Olympic champion. I'd just done another race. I hadn't raced in an Olympic final. I did not believe it because I had so fully convinced myself it was just another race.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  And I remember that, that whole Olympic Games, the rest of the Olympic Games, just being like this out of body experience. Just feeling like I, I can't have just, I, I could not call myself Olympic champion for so, for about six months afterwards.

• 17:59Fearne Cotton?

  Six months?

• 18:01Speaker 02

  I remember the moment it hit me. I just remember it really vividly. I was sat on the panel for a question of sport and they played the titles and they kind of announced me as Olympic champion. And for some reason, I think because I'd watched it since I was little, that was the moment where I went, they're talking about me. And it was, yeah, it was around Christmas time, so it must have been about six months after the games. And it just hit me that I was an Olympic champion, but I had normalized the situation so much. It's what I needed to do though, it was how I was going to cope.

• 18:28Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's a healthy thing to do because like you said, right at the start of this chat, in ways, nothing changes. You're doing the washing up the next day. And yes, you have that moment of euphoria. You've won the first gold medal in a home Olympic Games, but there is still washing to be done. And there is still food to be bought in the supermarket and life does go on. And I think. I don't know how you're meant to cope with that, but obviously your way was just to go, it's too surreal to process.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was almost, I guess it's avoidance. But I think also because my route in had been so quick as well, I was still processing the fact that I was a rower and an Olympian and then Olympic champion in such a small space of time. So my transition from London to Rio was really different in that I had so much more time to process what I was and what I was hoping to achieve. And so I had definitely, I had compartmentalised it all and kind of sorted it all in my brain by the time I'd got to Rio.

• 19:27Fearne Cotton?

  And do you celebrate things more now? So when you got a gold in Rio, for instance, were you able to actually really enjoy that moment and go, yes, a gold medal in my hands?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. So that just, I felt present. I felt like I had earned it. I felt like it belonged to me.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Because I had just, yeah, I had fully kind of given myself to that experience and allowed myself to believe that that was me in that moment, rather than kind of avoiding those feelings. It definitely made the run up to Rio far less enjoyable. I felt the pressure so much more. I really didn't enjoy the experience of being out in Rio in the build up.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  With the pressure, with the expectation, with the language around the way we were racing, because again, we were favourites and it was the language was almost as if we didn't need to race because we had already won. And it was like, anyone could beat us. When you're on the start line, you're so vulnerable. You don't get a head start just because you won the last race. And so I got, I found myself getting really frustrated with the language used around us. And actually, it was lovely and it was really complimentary. But I was like, stop talking like that.

• 20:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Make people believe that we could lose because we could. And I didn't like that. Be almost, I felt like we were being set up for a fall. If we didn't win, it would have been a loss, you know, a big loss. And so. It didn't, I didn't particularly enjoy it, but it definitely made the win feel a bit sweeter. You know, that we had kind of really come through that.

• 20:55Fearne Cotton?

  God, that pressure. I mean, the pressure of, I think this is what people perhaps underestimate. The pressure of being the best at something is so immense. It's so immense. Because like you say, if you're not then the best on any given occasion, it is a huge loss. Whereas if you are the underdog or you're unknown, anything's a plus. And it has such a different flavour to it.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:18Fearne Cotton?

  Crazy. And also, it also is slightly reductive in terms of how much hard work you've had to put in to get to that point to be the best. Like, oh, they'll just win. Oh my god, four years of gruelling training to get to that point. It feels quite reductive to talk about it in that way.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  I think that's why the older I've got, and I don't know if it's that I've got older, that I've spent more time in sport, that I've got kids, probably a bit of everything. I think my perspective on success has totally shifted. And what success is for me definitely looks far less like medals. But, you know, it sounds really cheesy, but the journey is really, really important, how you get there, what you represent, what you're doing along the way, what you're changing along the way. Is so much more important to me. Because if I had ended my career, so I ended my career after Rio, and if I had just left it there, I would have been really proud of what I had done. But I've done more in the last two Olympics than I have in those first two. And I think that for me, that shift in perspective of what's important and what it means is really different.

• 22:17Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, without a doubt. I mean, we haven't even got on to the juggle, the juggle of it all. And it's so, I find this conversation a tricky one in ways. Because whenever I've heard you interviewed before, people are almost obsessional when talking to women who are elite athletes, who happen to also be mums. It, it becomes this huge topic where we become hungry for like, how, and how do you do it? And how, and what's the juggle like? And how are you achieving so much? And I think I feel. These conflicting emotions of awe, because I am in awe of what you're able to do, but frustration because we don't ask male athletes these questions.

• 22:58Fearne Cotton?

  There is this absolute blanket coverage assumption that if a male athlete is training or racing, the mother will be at home looking after the kids. We don't even ask them, like, oh, how's the jug, how are you managing your children and your amazing sporting career? With women, we're obsessed with with how it's done. How do you feel about that?

• 23:20Speaker 02

  I think that it's a really important conversation to keep having. Because the moment we stop having it, even if even if we stop having the conversation for the right reasons, because we say, no, you know, we shouldn't keep asking this because, you know, because we're not asking the men or because it should always be assumed that women can do it, then it stops highlighting that actually it's not just there as an option for everybody.

• 23:44Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  It's not easy and it's not put in place in the way that it could be. So I do think it's really important to be. And people do say to me, oh, you know, do you start to feel that, you know, motherhood is is sort of should always go hand in hand in this kind of second half of your career? And I just think absolutely it should because it's it's a massive reason why I came back. It's a huge driver for me. Originally, it was all about kind of proving it can be done. And then it was about kind of doing it with my family and with my kids. But I think there's a really, really kind of fine line that I've always been careful to tread in it, which is, I think, I want a champion, the fact that women can go back and do whatever they want to do when they've had kids.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  But I also think that not everybody should, not everybody should want to. I never want anyone to ever feel less than because they don't go either back to work or back to their hobbies or passions. There's so many different routes that everyone should take. And I think the most important thing is. That the option is there.

• 24:48Fearne Cotton?

  But that's so important in this conversation. I think sometimes when we're talking about this subject, it's taken in such a black and white fashion that it's like, oh, well, all women have to find their passion afterwards. And of course, we're all different. Some people, their whole life is they want to be a mum and that that feels right for them. And that's amazing. And equally, you can go back, if you've got the right support and people around you to enable you to go and fulfil your dreams and passions. There's no right or wrong. It's just like you say, the option is so important. And one of the things that, one of the main barriers for women going back to work or carrying on with a career or a passion, like, let's use the word passion. Like, I feel like we're not allowed to say

• 25:30Fearne Cotton?

  that we want to do something. It has to be like, I need to go back to work. If you really want to go back and do something because you absolutely bloody love it. One of the main barriers is support. That's the hugest problem here. I mean, you have managed to juggle this with your husband. Brilliant, Steve Backshaw, who we're all absolutely obsessed with and in love with. You have this amazing communicative relationship where he's away at the moment, you're juggling at home whilst you were doing the Olympics, he had the kids. How much compromise is involved? How do those conversations go? How are you, how are you managing to juggle that?

• 26:04Speaker 02

  It's a huge amount of compromise. And I think it would only ever work in the short term. So for this Paris Olympics, I was only back at training for 18 months before the Games, because it was short Olympic cycle because of Covid.

• 26:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  And around the Tokyo Olympics, I did a lot of my training from home. And then, again, it was only maybe six, nine months that I was kind of back in full time training. Any more than that, I mean, he was, he was having to make huge sacrifices with his job and with his work. And it's not sustainable long term for both of us to kind of have a career on hold. And so it just, yeah, it's kind of like, I've almost found a solution because I've shown that it's possible to do. But it's not a practical solution in terms of going back long term and being able to afford childcare and things like that. So. Yeah, the number one, the fact that he was on board enough to say, yep, I'll step up and I'll, I'll help out.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Number two, the fact that he has a job that he can be flexible with. But it was, yeah, it definitely has a, has a timeline, how much you can, you can have that flex. So now he's got eighteen months' worth of work to make up for now I'm back home.

• 27:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, it's definitely tricky. And I think finding like childcare is definitely always been our number one thing. It's just really tricky, expensive, difficult, inflexible. That's been definitely challenging for us. But also I think the, the change, the shift within society, within language, within sport, within community, is something that's really important as well. And I think that to be supported as a parent, not just supported but wanted, is really crucial. Not just feeling like you're ticking a box or you're, whether it's work or sport or whatever it is, they're ticking a box by having you back and showing that. I think when you have children, in so many ways, you have so much more to give.

• 28:02Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I agree.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  It's just, I don't know what it is, but something changes in you.

• 28:06Fearne Cotton?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  And something is available that wasn't there before, I think, in so many ways. And I think to tap into that and for people to, to realise that and see that they could tap into it as well. I think it's just, it's a mi- it's a missed opportunity if it's not used.

• 28:20Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. I don't think motherhood's necessarily talked about in that way, that there's something, there's like additional benefits that come with the experience of being a parent. It's, it's almost like the loss is so much bigger, like what you lose. But actually, what you gain in terms of the levels of patience that you have to cultivate and your ability to deal with no sleep. Like how, you know, you've had to really dig deep with that one. Having, you know, three young kids, two are twins, having no sleep and then getting up and doing a gruelling training schedule. That's, that's something that perhaps you couldn't have done, say, when you were training for London.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Definitely. Heather always used to laugh at me. She was like, Helen, when you have kids, I do not know how you're gonna cope. Because I used to, between sessions, I used to nap. If we got on a bus.

• 29:09Fearne Cotton?

  You were a napper.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  I am a napper. Like, if I was on a bus, I was sleeping. If I was on a plane, I was sleeping. Like, we used to share a bedroom when we were away on, um, training camp. And honestly, every time she walked into the room, she would just walk out again because I would just be asleep. Like, she just. She's like, I've never seen someone sleep as much. And when you have kids, I don't know how you're going to cope. And I don't know what, I, I was scared for myself as well. But, yeah, I, I, so when the kids were born. Um, I used to, you know, you have a few hours of broken sleep and then you go in to train and do three sessions. Um, with everyone else who's had full, full night's sleep and naps. And the, the ability to just keep going, just keep going.

• 29:51Fearne Cotton?

  It's mad.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:52Fearne Cotton?

  You look back and you think, I mean, you're still sort of in the thick of it because your kids are pretty young still, but you look back and you think, how the hell? I, I remember turning up to do this terrifying job. It was at the, um, Albert Hall. I was so nervous. It was like a big children need thing. And my kids were really small. I think Rex was maybe three. And he'd woken me up at, say, like, three, half three, and hadn't gone back to sleep. And I was lying there going, this is a nightmare. I can't, I can't do this thing tomorrow. My brain's not going to operate. And somehow, you do, I worked till about midnight that night, and somehow you just do it. And you don't feel like you're capable, but there's something within you. And you wouldn't even bother to probably try and flex those muscles if you didn't have to, if you, if you weren't a mother.

• 30:35Fearne Cotton?

  But actually, you are able to bring that resilience into another part of your life and, and showcase it.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And I did find it in training. I found myself just being able to just carry on and just, I didn't, I didn't feel like complaining. I just would be out there in the boat, just keeping on going. And, and a bit like that sleep thing, you just show up and you just turn up and you just keep going. And it's just something in you that just allows you to keep going.

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• 33:19Fearne Cotton?

  It's an amazing setup you've got at the moment. Like you say, might not be long term. You've found a solution that all we can do is be in the day and just go, right, how's tomorrow gonna work?

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:29Fearne Cotton?

  I think in this conversation, and I live and breathe this one too, men are still sort of overly celebrated when they decide to support the wife, the woman, the mother going back to work. Whereas it's such a given that mums will potentially press pause on their career and the men go back, as they did maybe even the day after the kids, you know, been born. That still feels like there needs to be some movement there, something needs to change. Because we're still like, oh my god, the guy didn't go to work? I can't believe this. It's still almost shocking to hear sometimes.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think the fact that it's just this given, the fact that, you know, if a guy turns up at work, nobody would say, but where's the baby? And of course, there are a lot of practical reasons for that. And of course, there are those things. And I think especially in sport where there's lots of physical, you know, when you go through pregnancy and you're breastfeeding and things like that, there are lots of physical reasons why there would be a question mark over you coming back. And that is understandable. But I think that, I guess in my situation, when Steve said, yeah, you know, you go for it, mine isn't so much a career, it is a passion. You know, so actually, there was that kind of like, you go, you do that thing. It's a gamble as well, because there's no guaranteed results at the end of it.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  So I can see why for him, it was a big leap of faith.

• 34:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, how did you, that's more pressure for you then, because you're like, oh shit, if I'm saying you've got to press pause on your career, I better do all right with this next, you know, coming up Olympics.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  I did actually feel a bit of pressure. I felt, he never, you know, put pressure on me in terms of saying it. But, you know, very clearly, I had made this big thing of going, I wanna make it worth it by winning a medal in front of my kids. And actually, it comes to the moment, the day, and you think, I've got to make it happen now.

• 35:26Fearne Cotton?

  I can't, I can't even imagine. It's insane, the pressure. But again, you know, it's fueling, it's fueling you in that moment to give it your absolute all. The thing that there's like a great area of, did you after Rio say, right, I'm kind of done? Or I felt like the commentary around you was deciding that for you at times. It wasn't like you'd gone, oh, hi, everyone, that's my last Olympics, I'm going to have children now. It was almost like, oh, and she's having kids, so she's not coming back to the sport.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm so glad you picked up on that, because that's how I.

• 35:58Fearne Cotton?

  Because I don't know the answer to it.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's how I felt. So I never actually announced retirement. And I just kind of, for a year or two, lots of people would often have a year or two out after the games. I knew I wanted to have, start a family. And the day after I had Logan was basically the last time I'd ever be asked if I was going to go back into sport. It was just like that, you know, for that year or two, anytime I did an interview, the interviewer would say, you know, what do you think about Tokyo? Are you going to carry on? And I would say, I don't know. I definitely want to have a family. But yeah, never asked again. And it just, it just felt like this natural way of retiring and almost like this, I hadn't, I'd just been pushed into the slipstream of retirement without actually having the kind of,

• 36:42Speaker 02

  I guess at that time I also maybe didn't have the, I wasn't self-assured enough. I didn't have the belief that I would actually even consider carrying on when I'd had a kid. I just felt like, oh, well, if that's what happens now, that's what I do. Which I feel strange saying that now because I've had to be very sure of myself in some ways over the last few years. But I didn't possess that then, I don't think. I didn't possess that ability to just believe that I could do something differently.

• 37:11Fearne Cotton?

  Which says so much about how we all probably feel this undercurrent of societal pressure to fit in with what we're told happens either after you've had kids or when you get to a certain age. I think that comes into it as well, that we just go, oh, yeah, this is kind of what happens then. And you don't actually make the decision for yourself. And I think so many of us in all areas of life, go in, go down that slipstream that you've just talked about, whether it is retirement or it's I can't do this any longer because I'm a certain age or I've got kids. At what point did you think, I'd quite like to challenge that?

• 37:48Speaker 02

  Age was definitely a part of it as well. I think there's just this, this sort of you're out of this bracket and so therefore you move on. And it had never actually been openly discussed with me, but it just, there's just this feeling, I guess, this expectation. And so four years, four years I was out with the boat and I'd had my oldest in two thousand and eighteen. In two thousand and twenty, I had the twins and it was exactly at the time of Covid. So I had newborn twins and an eighteen month old as we went into Covid. And the only bit of fitness equipment in the house was a rowing machine. So I kind of got back on the rowing machine just to keep fit. And I was fully expecting to watch the Tokyo Olympics with my babies on the sofa that summer.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  And then the Olympics got postponed and I suddenly had a year ahead of me in lockdown in the house with the kids and a rowing machine and the potential to make it back. And at the time, when I first started going back, it's just like this annoying athlete trait you have, which you get back on a rowing machine, you think you're really good again. I was like, you should have ignored my scores, but I just kept thinking, yeah, I've still got it. I've still got it. But then, day on day, I kept, I just kept going. And it actually, the, the sound of the rowing machine lulled the twins to sleep. So every time it was time for their nap, I'd just put them by the fan of the rowing machine and it sent them to sleep. It was a bit like a heartbeat sound, you know, so. Genius. Yeah. So it was, it was kind of this way of getting them to nap, allowing me to do some

• 39:15Speaker 02

  exercise. And after a couple of months, my scores were getting really quickly back up to what they used to be. And I just started thinking, and I was like, I wonder that one of the biggest barrier had definitely been the fact that you had to go into training. And I'd never wanted to leave my children when they were this young, you know, I'd had a couple of years with my oldest at this point and I didn't want to leave the twins. But I just thought, under the shadow of lockdown, I could just start training. And I could just see if I'm good enough to get back on the team and no one needs to know. And so I trained for a few months. And then around the Christmas time, I was doing really well. So it was about five months before the games and I announced that I was going to try and make a comeback and be the first woman to make it to

• 39:58Speaker 02

  the games as a rower. And I mean, it was, I, I honestly can't explain the.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  The kind of outpouring of support from the parent community. And it's something that I'd never, I'd never really had that village before. So I had, you know, the twins in lockdown and Logan, who was a toddler. But I'd never really found that tribe. I'd never really found that support. I'd never really felt what it, what it means when parents get behind parents. And when I had this announcement that I was going back, I, maybe it was because it was lockdown and there hadn't been many stories. It was a slow news day or something. But it was just so unexpected. The, my inbox was just full and full and full of messages of parents, both mums and dads.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Or just, you know, grandparents, people just saying, thank you. And this is, we're all behind you. This is what I want my little girl to see. This is, we're, we're supporting you. And honestly, from that, from that moment, it changed from being something was all about, you know, what can I do to show, you know, can I show my little girl? Something, can I, can I prove something to the system? It became far bigger than that and just about kind of, I guess, that wider community that had shown massive support to me.

• 41:17Fearne Cotton?

  That is so amazing. It's so amazing and it's so beautiful. So I think

• 41:23Fearne Cotton?

  most, probably all women would feel that after they've had kids, there is this natural loss of identity, which will last for differing periods of time, depending on your circumstance and level of support and where your head's at at that point. I absolutely felt that. I felt like I didn't have a clue what I liked anymore. Um, a lot of the time that was sort of, I would be confused as to like, do I really want to do this and like it? The guilt feels so huge that I actually can't even action it, so I'm gonna park it. My kids are now nine and 11 and my stepkids are adults, but. The nine and eleven, and I honestly only feel this year that I'm properly, properly back in the flow of

• 42:08Fearne Cotton?

  today, I have got the day off work and I'm gonna paint and I wanna do that for me without guilt, without worry. I've probably got a bit more headspace at this point with their ages. They're at school for the weekdays and sometimes after school club, so I can be a little bit more relaxed about my timekeeping. And I feel like I'm coming back to myself in a way, like the old me is coming back, but with more maturity and wisdom. It's taken me a long time. There've obviously been sort of glimmers of it along the way and I've been lucky enough to work on off throughout being a parent and finding support in different ways.

• 42:47Fearne Cotton?

  But I think it's the internalized bit of like wondering who you are at this point and how you've changed. And whether it's for the better or which bits of you have fallen by the wayside. At what, I mean, this was quick for you in terms of I'm setting myself this goal, but at what point did you start feeling like, oh yeah, the old me, the elite athlete is coming back into this body and this mindset?

• 43:12Speaker 02

  That's such a good question, because I think the way you described that is something that I still think I do feel now.

• 43:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Even though I've had this massive thing just happened to me and you'd just been at the Olympic Games. I still think, you know, my twins are four and the older one's six and so but I still feel in that phase of kind of discovering who I am and what I want and where I'm at. And so I think even though I've done this big thing, it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's given me this huge anchor. But I do think it's made me a better parent in terms of giving me that identity. And I compare it to when I, when I wasn't rowing. And I had my toddler and then having the twins and getting back to rowing.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  I think that I was a much more present parent because I had this, I kind of compartmentalised my life. And when I was at training, I was there for the shortest time possible. I went in and out, I was getting it done, but I was getting it done with quality. I was present and I was going to make the most of that time. So that when I stepped away from it, I would totally detach. And then when I got home, I think I just felt, I felt energised. And I think partly that's because of exercise and that, and I think I do, I probably am someone that needs exercise to get those endorphins and lift. And, but I think for my mental health, it was really important, that identity. And I could really throw myself into parenting.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  And I think that it's definitely not something that everybody needs. And I see some of my friends parenting day to day with just this amazing consistency and this amazing ability to be present. But for me, I found the stepping back in a real kind of powerful moment that I'd given myself, this kind of reminder of who I am outside of, outside of the house as well.

• 45:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I, I'm the same. I need something creative to remind me of who I am. I think it's that simple, just a reminder of, oh yeah, because obviously like, I feel like I have to say the disclaimer of like, being a parent is a privilege and it's amazing and there's so many beautiful parts of it. But a lot of it is really mundane. And you are doing stuff on repeat and sometimes it's thankless a lot of the time. And it's sometimes it's totally and utterly exhausting mentally, emotionally, physically. So to have something that really boosts you outside of that, if that is what you want, as we keep saying, you know, if that floats your boat, I've just used the pun there, sorry guys, without even realising it.

• 45:53Fearne Cotton?

  But that is, is deeply important to give you that sort of balance. And I think perspective that when you step back into it, you do feel re-energised and that, and that you, you can step into that space gratefully.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah, be, being grateful. And I, I think every single time I would come back, I'd, I was grateful not only for the fact that I was able to go and do this thing I wanted to do, but grateful every time I walked back home being, you know, just. I guess reassessing how lucky I am, how great this actually is, but when I did notice it, if I stayed in it too long, I think my perspective shifted and I definitely found it, I found it harder to be the parent that I wanted to be.

• 46:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, before, so you met Steve in 2014. At some point, you, you decide this is what you want to do, you want to start a family. At that point, knowing how the sporting world works, knowing how your body might change, and, you know, just the practicalities of life after having kids, did you have a moment where you thought about the impact it would have on not only your career, but your passion and your identity?

• 46:58Speaker 02

  I, I think before having kids, I never, ever thought about what happens next. It was just something that I, I knew I wanted to have a family and the timeline goes like this. And after Rio, it was a very sensible, it was like a sensible time to retire and to have a family and to do all these things, you know? I didn't, I, I didn't really think about what I do next. And I think that I expected to maybe fall into things a bit more, things to naturally happen a bit more, like not having to make big decisions, like going back to the Olympics and things like that. I just, I just, I don't know, I think that

• 47:37Speaker 02

  thinking about how you're going to feel when you're a parent is really hard because it's something which is, I found it quite alien. You know, I didn't have, I didn't know lots of people who had had children. I wasn't around lots of children who were kind of in my, like, inner circle really. So kind of those discussions around your body changing or actual childbirth or anything like that, I just had never really had before.

• 48:05Fearne Cotton?

  And then twins, talk to me about having twins.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  Well, I'm a twin myself and so actually my mum was pretty much on speed dial for the whole time.

• 48:13Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, I, I hope, that's great.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  But you know what? It's not doubly as hard, I don't think.

• 48:20Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, and actually, in some ways, there are definitely moments that are much easier. I found that when they were newborns, it's it's hard because I was breastfeeding them both. And I remember, actually, they, I had to wean them off because I had to go to the European Championships to compete. And they they were still feeding and they got to fourteen months and I was thinking, I thought they were just gonna, Logan stopped at twelve months. He just stopped and they kept going and I was thinking, I've got to fly out to Italy in a week. They were slowly stopping. They eventually stopped feeding and I remember being out in Italy and in between races, expressing in the shower. Because I was like, I just, this is too much. But yeah, I was rowing with a girl called Polly at the time and she was just laughing at me.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  She's like, every time we raced, boobs were a different size.

• 49:09Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I mean, this is just, again, all so mind blowing. You're about to take part in this high pressured race and you've got to worry about essentially your boobs going rock hard. Because you haven't expressed enough.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  I was thinking, imagine if anyone I'm racing knows what I'm doing right now. But yeah, all part of the process, all unknown unknown world for me. But yeah, it was a very, very surreal part of the whole experience.

• 49:30Fearne Cotton?

  This is unbelievable. I remember doing Top of the Pops Christmas once and my daughter was maybe, I don't know, like two, three months old. And I'd brought her to the studio and I was sort of like doing a bit to the camera, running out, breastfeeding. And there was a bit where we were filming and filming and I was like, guys, I'm gonna have to stop you here. Because I could feel it was like leaking, they were like two hard rocks. I was like, oh, I've got to get out of it now. And the panic of like, everyone looking at you and, oh my god, it's a nightmare. Oh, but twins, I can't even imagine. It's a whole other thing.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  I felt like as soon as they got to toddler age and they started to play with each other. Like, that's when it changed because they would actually entertain each other. And I think that's the thing I found hardest when it was just me and one child. Was that you're their world, their entertainment and you're kind of like putting on full theatre productions for them.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Whereas actually, when it was the two of them. They did interact with each other a lot. And actually, they still do. They still, if it's the two of them together, it's much easier than one on their own. They bounce off each other. So as soon as they're out of that baby phase, I found having twins actually not significantly harder than one.

• 50:43Fearne Cotton?

  It's such a lovely bond for them as well.

• 50:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's lovely. And they're, they're really different. They're a boy, girl as well.

• 50:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Um, but they're really different. So they kind of, they don't kind of encroach in each other's territory too much.

• 50:53Fearne Cotton?

  Well, that's good. They've got some sort of like unwritten understanding of how it all works.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Although I think they might be rebelling against each other. Like they're kind of as different as can be at the moment.

• 51:03Fearne Cotton?

  That's so sweet.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:05Fearne Cotton?

  I loved the book that you wrote with Steve about getting kids out in nature and parenting in a different way. I mean, we say different way. It's basically parenting like people did in the seventies, which we've come so far from. We're in this weird territory now where screens are stuck in front of kids to sort of pacify them. So we can do the cleaning or whatever it might be, but the balance is tipping into probably not great territory. And you both seem extremely passionate about making sure that kids are outside, getting dirty, camping, playing in trees. Was that ever a discussion you had? Or, I mean, I'm imagining, we both know what your passions are. It was just a great fit that you both wanted to parent in the same way.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah. We both wanted to parent in the same way in terms of being outdoors. We're definitely not, I mean, we have screen time, like the kids will watch TV, they'll do something on the iPad. But something we wanted to do with that book is, I think, we very much realised that a skill set both Steve and I have is the ability to just be really comfortable to go outside and, and be in nature. And that actually, for a lot of people, that is, um, I guess it's just you exert more energy. Whether it's mental energy, physical energy, practical things you need, knowing how to do it, what to do, what to do on a rainy day, what to do by the beach. And so we thought, and I, and I think when I had the kids, I remember thinking, what do I do with you? What do I do today?

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Because suddenly your, your brain can go, you know, go to fog.

• 52:33Fearne Cotton?

  I have it all the time. I had this weekend, like, what do I do with my own? Children on a Saturday and I don't want to go to Westfield, what do I do?

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 52:41Fearne Cotton?

  You just feel freaked out.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And I had this, I always have this thing of what, what do people do? And so we, we wrote this book just essentially to go, what do people do in the outdoors? And it's from, from very, very simple things, from, from blackberry picking to building a den to, and, and kind of wherever you are, wherever you are in the country, you could open the book and I hope find something that just shortcuts that what on earth do we do to go, well, let's just do this. And I would just love to think that it can be kind of something that sits on your bookshelf and is a really great kind of go to, kind of whenever you get that thought of, I know we need to go outside, but I can only do so many walks to the park. There's make, and you can still walk to the park, but make it a bit different by doing this as we go.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  So yeah, hopefully it'll kind of help, help families get outside more.

• 53:28Fearne Cotton?

  It's lovely. It's a beautiful guide and it's just a, an essential reminder that we just need to get kids out in nature, just touching and feeling and looking at stuff and spying newts in streams and picking blackberries, like you say, it's just, we've got to get back to basics and get the balance back. Cause you know, screens are inevitable, they're being introduced into schools now, which I feel slightly conflicted about, but we know that's becoming a bigger part of life. So I think where we can counter it, it's just so important.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And I'm the first to say, you know, if I'm, if I need to at home, I will go, right, kids, you're watching a film. Because I've got to do the laundry and I've got to do the cleaning and I've got to do this and that. And I don't feel guilt around that. But I also know that sometimes if they're getting edgy or they're kicking off, actually the solution will be, let's get outside. And then suddenly the mood changes.

• 54:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  And so I think there's, there's space for both, there's room for both, but both should be really enjoyed by your families.

• 54:25Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. It's a bloody great book. Um, this is the most obvious question ever, but before I say goodbye to you, I think all of us are eager to hear your thoughts on whether there would be another Olympics.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  I don't know. When I was going towards Paris, I really thought it would be my last.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  But I'm not sure now. I think that, so when I, I always, always thought that my body would tell me when I had had enough, I would, I would either get ill or injured or just my performance would decline. And that hasn't happened. And when I was going to Paris, I was actually in the best shape I've ever been. And in a way, that's frustrating, because I know.

• 55:09Fearne Cotton?

  You're like, oh shit, I've got to do it again.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Part of me thinks I could go again, but then it has to be for the right reasons. So I'm definitely not going back anytime soon. I'm going to take time out. I'm, if I stay fit, and if I stay fit enough, I'll see whether I want to go back in a couple of years' time. It's not a no, it's not a right, not right now. Um, I don't know.

• 55:27Fearne Cotton?

  Because we, you know, we've ticked off the list, you've stood on the podium and your kids have seen you. Like, we've done that. That's fantastic. Amazing to do it again. But you have done it. Is it enough to, I believe it is, to say, and it, but it's a pressure for you, I want to show women of all ages that you can do this with your body. And actually, you can keep setting yourself goals and give things a try. Is that enough?

• 55:57Speaker 02

  I love that. I, I really love it. I, I'd love to kind of represent, you know, people as they, as they get told they're too old for something, or told they're not right for something, or told they're too this or too that. I don't think you're too anything. If you're, if you're good enough, you're tall enough, you're short enough, you're old enough, you're anything enough. Um, so there is this sense of me that wants to kind of go, keep going to prove a point, but I don't know if that's a good enough reason to keep going. So I think over the next year or two, I'm going to have to work out, if I went back, why would I go back? And like you say, what result would I be looking for? What would it, what would the end goal be? Um, because I am really content with my

• 56:38Speaker 02

  career. Um, but I never thought I would walk away from the chance to go to an Olympic Games. So I don't know.

• 56:46Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I'm excited to just see what unfolds. And I'm sure that you'll continue to surprise us all. So we'll just have to wait and see.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 56:55Fearne Cotton?

  Um, Helen, it's been such a joy talking to you. And once again, just a massive congratulations on this amazing sporting year.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 57:05Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, thanks Helen. What a woman. What an incredible human being who I think for many women is a great source of inspiration, that we can still have goals and dreams and desires and we can action them and that it's okay to and that you can do things outside of the family home. It's not always possible, but I love the fact that she's showing us there are other options and doing it so gracefully and brilliantly. What a woman. And also the fact that she didn't necessarily say no to another Olympics, did she? Love that. What other brilliant female athletes have we had on the show? God, so many. I've been so lucky to chat to people like Leah Williamson, of course, England football captain.

• 57:47Fearne Cotton?

  Molly McCann, oh my god, she's so brilliant, the brilliant MMA fighter. We loved her so much. And do you know who I'm going to put in the list? She's a broadcaster, but now turning into somewhat of an elite athlete. Adele Roberts. She's become the fastest London marathon running woman with a stoma bag. I mean, she's doing loads of marathons at the moment, all over the world, and she's doing them in like three hours 15. It's ridiculous. She's just the best. We're going to pop links in the show notes so you can see all of those episodes if you want to hear some more goodness from brilliant women. Do you want to know what goes on behind the scenes at Happy Place? I hope you do. Loads goes on. I've got the most amazing team that I work with that I adore and I couldn't do any of this without

• 58:31Fearne Cotton?

  them. You get to see what they do. You just need to come over and join us on Instagram at Happy Place Official and on YouTube because we've been filming loads of fun that goes on behind the scenes with the podcast and the festival setup and the book in print that we have, all of it. And I'd love you to laugh along with the mistakes and mishaps and fun and shenanigans along the way. Until next week, a massive thanks again to Helen, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, because you're ace.

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