Lulu: “I deeply disliked myself!” Recovering from alcoholism and trauma

Lulu shot to fame at 15, and she’s been playing that part, masking who she really is – Marie McDonald McLaughlin Lawrie – for the six decades since. In this chat with Fearne, Lulu explains how she felt that everything from her real name and accent, to her personality and childhood weren’t good enough, so she created a character for the public to love. However, this kind of emotional suppression can have painful consequences, and she’s since learned to stop running from her messy parts. Lulu talks through the moment she realised she was an alcoholic, and how recovery has helped her truly like herself. They chat about how to trust your intuition, and reinvent yourself in every decade should you want to... but prepare for others to find your growth uncomfortable. Plus, there are revelations about her relationship with David Bowie that Lulu’s never publicised before, and details about how she put her father in jail as a child. Lulu’s new book, If Only You Knew, is out now. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Jon Bon Jovi https://pod.fo/e/248403 Zandra Rhodes https://pod.fo/e/254d35 Jada Pinkett Smith https://pod.fo/e/20142a Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that doesn't need you to always be happy, clappy, smiley and compliant. Today, I'm chatting to Lulu.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  So by that point, I thought, my name isn't good enough, my accent's not right, my personality's obviously not good enough. So I realised I've played the part of Lulu since I was 15 years old. And obviously, part of me is Marie from Glasgow. Lulu is happy, poppy, de Lulu. And Marie is scrappy, sometimes angry, determined, different to Lulu.

• 1:09Fearne Cotton?

  I'm really excited about this conversation. I've sort of known Lulu on off over the years. I don't know where I first met her, but the first time I got to properly spend time with her, I think, was when she came as a guest on Celebrity Juice. She sat down next to me and the first thing I noticed was that she smelled so gorgeous. It sort of blindsided me and I was like, what is that? She's like, oh, it's an oil that I get whenever I go to India. Next thing I know, she comes back from India and she brings me some oil. So what did she just grab from her handbag when we were doing the chat? She bought me a little pot of the oil and it smells like sort of, do you know what it smells like? Mysticalness. That's not even a word, but it smells mystic. Oh my God, it is.

• 1:53Fearne Cotton?

  Heavenly. And then the last time I saw Lulu was when we went to go and watch The Rolling Stones together at Hyde Park. I had the cheek to try and sing in front of Lulu. Never again, one of the bigger regrets in my life. I tried to sing out loud to whatever, like Jumping Jack Flash. And then Lulu comes in like with her belting voice. Never sing in front of Lulu is the lesson I learned that day. But she is an absolute dream, the loveliest person ever, a ball of energy. She absolutely shot to fame when she was just a teenager. And for the next 40 years or so, stepped in to play the part she knew everyone wanted her to be. But in her new memoir, If Only You Knew, she talks about how she felt she was

• 2:35Fearne Cotton?

  losing the real Lulu along the way. So we talk about all sorts of things. Lulu sort of being a bit of a character. She talks about, well, her real name is Marie. We talk a lot about Marie in this chat. We talk about alcoholism throughout her childhood, to do with her father and her grandfather. Also evolving with age and not needing to satisfy anyone but yourself. Also, there's a lovely moment where we talk about David Bowie, which is juicy. Listen out for that bit. And also the safety of finding one person that you can really confide in to really eradicate shame. Shame is a big theme in this chat. And it's a theme that I'm really interested in. So if you have felt shame in your life or are sort of drowning in at the moment, I think this chat will be really helpful for you.

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• 4:28Speaker 06

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• 5:01Fearne Cotton?

  All right, here we go. This is the show.

• 5:25Fearne Cotton?

  Lulu, what joy to have you on Happy Place.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  I'm very honoured. Thank you so much for having me.

• 5:30Fearne Cotton?

  I'm honoured. I loved reading your book. I mean, I know you, but this was like, I got to know you. I got to know you. And the end of chapter one, you summarise that initial part of the book by saying, "This is your time to be utterly transparent, whereas you might not have been entirely transparent before." What stopped you, do you think, talking about the entirety of your story before now?

• 5:56Speaker 02

  I have a pat answer, which is I'm a private person.

• 5:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  But really and truly, I had a lot of shame about my life, about moments in my life, my childhood, and...

• 6:11Speaker 02

  You know, I just, to be honest with you, my mother trained me very early on. Anything that goes on in this house does not leave this house. And so, obviously, the violence and alcoholism and all the stuff in my young childhood. I was ashamed.

• 6:34Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you've got to do a hell of a lot of work personally to get to a point where you can then start. Even telling mates about this stuff, you know, I've got big patches of my life where I know that shame still sort of floats around in the equation. And they're always the moments, you know, where I need to go to therapy again and talk about stuff or, you know, some stuff I still wouldn't want to talk to my friends about. So to write it in a book is a huge deal because you've got to talk about it all over again. You've got to have a level of comfort with it. What's gotten you to that point?

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Well, I'm seventy six. That's what's got me. And I do feel privileged to be seventy six. Because, you know, my mother didn't live this long, my father didn't live this long. And I'll tell you what happened. I think this, I think maybe the kick in of I'm going to do the book, you know, because I'd thought about it, people had mentioned it and I thought, maybe, yeah, we'll see, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then my granddaughter turned fifteen and my son and I were, you know, looking at her, just loving her, loving her to pieces. She's just so great. And fifteen and going to school. I mean, she's a young woman, but she's really only a little girl.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  And my son then said, Bella, you know what Nana was doing at fifteen? And really, really, it's sort of like, yeah, wow, wow, wow. He said, she was in business, she was on the road, no school for Nana.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  And then, you know, when I started to think about writing my memoir, telling my story, because it's been said by only, I think there are four people who really know me. Really know me. And one of them said, people think they know you, they have no idea, they just don't, they don't know, because I don't share certain things. I chose not to share certain things. And I thought, my grandchildren don't know.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  I'm gonna do it. That's the reason I'm gonna do the book. For their, a legacy for my grandchildren to get to know who their grandmother was.

• 8:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  And um, that's when it started and boy. I had to go back into therapy once I started.

• 8:49Fearne Cotton?

  I bet.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Because I had so carefully blanked things out, pushed them down. And to drag them up again was emotional, it was painful. I mean, a lot of the thing, there are things in the book too, because I've just finished Audible that made me laugh. What a need you I am.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Thank God I've got a sense of humour. But you know, I think everybody's story is, I mean, for me, I read books mainly to learn.

• 9:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Because I'm curious. And um, I thought, well, you know, maybe if I tell my whole story and, and then I started to look at it and I'm thinking. Oh my, what a life, Lulu. I've had a life.

• 9:33Fearne Cotton?

  What a life.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  And if somebody can get something from it that maybe help them. Or they may think, oh, that's a good idea. Oh, I wonder why she did that. Maybe I should try, you know. One person decides that it's helpful. That's my small way of giving back, because I've had the most unbelievable life.

• 9:53Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, unbelievable, and you undoubtedly will help so many people, I think, especially when it comes to shame.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:00Fearne Cotton?

  Nobody talks about this stuff, because that's what shame does. Shame stops you from talking, it keeps you quiet, it keeps you straight.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Days in the dark, yeah.

• 10:06Fearne Cotton?

  It stays in the dark. And actually, I think you realise, as soon as you start talking about the things that you feel ashamed about. It dissipates because you're not, you know, you're not, it's not hiding in the dark, growing secretly, and then you have other people.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Fermenting.

• 10:18Fearne Cotton?

  Fermenting, yeah. And you have other people going, oh my god, same, I, I've been through that, or I've had something similar, or I feel ashamed about this. It does help.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  That is actually, I mean, for instance, um, when I started, first of all, they changed my name. They changed my, um.

• 10:36Fearne Cotton?

  This would have been the record label, right?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Well, well, it's a combination of people, you know. Uh, first of all, it was my manager, Marion. My name is Marie McDonald McLaughlin Laurie. Well, that's gonna, you know.

• 10:47Fearne Cotton?

  It's not as catchy as Lulu.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  And everybody, like, there was just the Beatles, ju- just been going for a year or so. The Rolling Stones, the Animals, all these cute names. And she said, we need something for you that suits you. And she suggested Lulu. And I sort of went, oh. Yeah, because I was thinking of comparing myself with with all the bands. And then, of course, what happened next was that, see, Lulu is a character, I don't know. And it's a character I played.

• 11:15Fearne Cotton?

  So you still click into that even now?

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Now I know what it is.

• 11:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Before I wasn't a hundred percent sure, I hadn't analyzed it. But I realized my name changed, my accent has to change because I speak so quickly anyway. But with a Scottish accent, I was talking like that, nobody knew what I was talking about. So under and I understood that. And then I recorded shout and they couldn't find another one like it. They couldn't find anything as bluesy, as rocky and as, because as a singer, I like to ring a song out.

• 11:46Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, you do. Oh, yeah.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Thank you. And so that they couldn't find anything for me. And I was given songs that were not challenging enough for me, not in that that that I could do the ringing out. And so that's three things they changed. And then one day, coming off stage, I I pounded my guitarist. What was that? You weren't even looking at the audience, you were watching and I like another. And Marion, my manager, said, yeah. And we both, me and my guitars went, yeah. She said, you can't talk like that, you can't be like that. People are watching you. And they'll think that's all you are and you'll get a bad name and they'll think you're this and that and the next thing.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  So by that point, I thought my name isn't good enough, my accent's not right. My personality is obviously not good enough. And it's not correct, it's not proper, it's not socially acceptable, all those things. Even though I didn't have those words in my head at fifteen, socially acceptable. Um, and then the songs would be lightweight, a lot of them, and I'd want something that I could get my teeth into. So I realized I've played the part of Lulu since I was fifteen years old. And I am obviously part of me is Marie from Glasgow.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  And, you know, Lulu is happy, clappy, poppy, smiley, the Lulu. And and and Marie is happy, scrappy, sometimes angry, um, bluesy.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Determined, different to Lulu. But you know what happens is when you're playing characters like that, especially when you're a child. You take the chara- I took, I should say, not what anyone else is gonna do, what I did. I took the character of Lulu on because why would I go on stage and not take Lulu with me? People seem to like her.

• 13:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  And, um, but then I didn't know where she ended and where Marie began. So as I got older, it became more obvious. I had to look at that.

• 13:56Fearne Cotton?

  It's so interesting, uh, cause I think when you start in a public fa- you drink away. A, a public facing job at the age of fifteen. I was fifteen, sixteen when I started presenting. It's obviously very different audience you're working with or whatever. But, you know, you do learn very quickly to be the good girl. That's what you've got to do.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Squeaky clean, I was.

• 14:16Fearne Cotton?

  Squeak clean and always smiling and whatever someone tells you to do, you say yes, cause otherwise you think you're gonna lose the job, you know? So you are compliant, you are obedient, you play the role of the good girl. And I don't think I realised that until a couple of years ago, I would say. A couple of years ago, I was like, wait a minute, what, what do I actually wanna do? Do I wanna still keep saying yes to everything people ask me to do? And, you know, maybe I'd like to explore some other emotions that I've got going on, like anger. And, you know, all the other shit that I sort of bury deep, rather than just keep smiling and do the right thing. And, you know, obviously, y- you wanna be a good, kind person, you wanna move through the world peacefully.

• 14:55Fearne Cotton?

  But I think when you start suppressing whole parts of yourself, and like you've said, parts of your childhood, which you were like, I cannot let other people see this. I cannot talk about it. That, I think, becomes very uncomfortable later down the line.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  You know, it eventually, it's like everything. If you overexaggerate or you do, if you ever do anything, it will eventually, you'll have to address it. Because it will, will not be out of balance. So yeah, that's exactly what happened. I did it and I pushed forward because I'm very stoic. In fact, I love the Stoics.

• 15:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  I've pushed forward and but eventually it's like, hello, anybody up there? Is this not working? This is getting more uncomfortable. And it wasn't until I was forced to do it. And that often happens with us human beings.

• 15:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  We don't look at things until we're forced to.

• 15:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  And then, you know, because of how I conduct my life, I look at that now as a positive, even if it's really painful.

• 15:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, because you're forced to change and you're forced to look at stuff you don't wanna look at. And you can't run away from stuff. I think that's what I've realised too is I've certainly been on the run quite a lot in life. Like just run away from the stuff that you don't wanna look at. Keep running, keep working, keep busy, keep preoccupied.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:13Fearne Cotton?

  It always catches up with you and you have to have a look at it. I mean, that's what you've done exceptionally well with this book. You have dug around in all the messy bits, all the corners.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  But being respectful of other people, not dissing people.

• 16:25Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no. But you're telling your version of events. Everyone knows that's your story.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:29Fearne Cotton?

  When you look back to your childhood and the stuff that you were trying to cover over and not look at, you've got your mum's voice in your ear, this stays in the house. How does it feel to then talk about your dad, your grandad's alcoholism, the violence in the house? You know, does it, is there a sense of liberation that comes with the discomfort?

• 16:47Speaker 02

  I think there is some sense of liberation, but to be honest with you, because I've just started doing promotion and the book is not out yet, it's not out till the twenty fifth. But reading, doing the audible part of the book, I would have to stop and cry. And I think that's cathartic and I'm hoping in the end it will be cathartic. And also, you know, I've had such an incredible life, I also was reminded of the amazing things. You know, it's, because like you, absolutely, I've run all my life, run, push forward, push forward, push forward. And so, you know, there's a price to pay for that.

• 17:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my god.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  And it's not that I wanna sit and I'm certainly, one of my big things is I never wanna get stuck, never. So if I have the courage to, you know, take it up, look at it, what is that? Tried it and I've done therapy, of course, and, you know, and then. Put it on the side. It doesn't have to be pushing up and you're pushing it down. There's no fight going on and it's not right up here. So I think ultimately it is important to look at the pain, go through the pain, accept the pain and almost, I don't even like that I'm saying this, but it's it's almost necessary to almost embrace the pain. And like you said, it dissipates the shame.

• 18:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  And you know, when you're a little child and your parents are literally knocking the shit out of each other physically. Because there was alcoholism. I mean, not that in Glasgow you'd ever use that. They'd say, oh, Aziz likes a good drink, you know. But it's obvious my father was an alcoholic because his father, his father was. And and it's a family disease. And so I'm looking at it and I'm. I've done a lot of work around it that has liberated me.

• 18:37Fearne Cotton?

  Good.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  That's the key. And I only want to grow. I don't want to be stuck, you know. So that's what I, that's I think, and I hope what the book's done for me. And if anyone else gets anything from it, it's a win-win situation.

• 18:53Fearne Cotton?

  Without a doubt. I mean, your relationship with alcohol has been complicated. Back when you were starting out and you were, you know, around all of these big rock bands who are excessive and decadent. You were actually very against getting messed up. You're like, I don't want to drink loads. I don't want to do drugs.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  I was frightened.

• 19:08Fearne Cotton?

  You were scared, yes. But then much, much later down the line, in your sixties, that's when you started to realise. Oh, my God, I'm I'm drinking every day. What, you know, it was a bit of a slippery slope for you at that point in your life.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  It certainly was. It wasn't until in my sixties that I really admitted.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  There's the key. I mean, I love the word denial. Somebody, someone says to me, and that's not a river in Egypt, denial. Denial is. Is pushing it down, like you said, like you mentioned, and then it goes in the dark.

• 19:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  And then it start, people can get sick. We can get very sick from holding the stress and all, and it's so amazing that we could talk about that today. I mean, because let's face it, in the sixties, was I going to talk about

• 19:54Fearne Cotton?

  God, no.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Hard stuff? No, they wanted to see Lulu and also rock and roll, the music business is fun. Talking about your misery is not fun. But at this point in life, I am so grateful to people like yourself, young people who talk about the, you know, the glitches in their life, the problems they've had to deal with and bring it out. And then everyone goes, oh, yeah, I had the same thing. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. I'm, I do, I go, absolutely fun, I'm the same. And everything you said before is exactly what I've written in my book, you know, there is so many similarities. And, you know, I'm part of a fellowship now because I admitted I am an alcoholic.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  You know, I'm in this fellowship that people say that. And as soon as you say it out loud and people relate and you know, everybody's got the same story, but other alcoholics have similar stories. And someone said to me, don't listen to the differences, listen to the similarities. And this healing takes place. And then because of the fellowship that I'm in, there's disciplines every day. This, I'm, I'm actually very disciplined. So with the drinking, I managed to control it until it started to control me. And then I was miserable and I was in, I mean, I haven't had a drink since the third of November twenty thirteen.

• 21:14Fearne Cotton?

  That's amazing.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:16Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes.

• 21:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  And, you know, I feel so much, it's incredible how much better I feel. You know, more clarity, um, joy. I mean, and I always have joy, I'm that kind of person, you know? I don't, I mean, and I'm lucky enough not to have a chemical depression, but I would get down. But, and also I was a very highly functioning alcoholic.

• 21:40Fearne Cotton?

  What do you think led you in your sixties to that point where you were drinking too much? Was it just a whole backlog of stuff?

• 21:47Speaker 02

  I think, I think it's a backlog, a buildup.

• 21:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  And of course, I'm someone who's take, I, I've always been like a carer, you know? I'd always looked after my siblings and I'm just that kind of person. One girlfriend once said to me when I was going out with this guy, I remember. Don't mother him. Hmm. I mean, that's what I do. That's what I do. So I've always, like you said, run. Yeah. And taking care of business everywhere, everything okay. And even if I would be drinking at night excessively and land in the bed like, ah, I would be up next morning, brush up, get going, highly functioning. So you convince yourself, I'm okay. It's not a problem. It's not a problem. You hear that a lot. Mm hmm.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Um, and it's so great that I actually realized it was a problem. It got too painful. Yeah. But I did it secretly. Nobody knew. Hmm. Nobody knew that I was going through what I was going through because of that deep rooted dislike of myself, you know. God, that part of myself was like, oh, God, why haven't you got yourself together? Look at the age you are. This is ridiculous, you know. But thank you, God. Thank you, God. It, you know, I finally, I got recovery and it's one of the most magical things in the world. There's acceptance. There's, you drop any resentments. I mean, you just do the work. You do what you're advised to do, you know,

• 23:18Speaker 02

  be disciplined and certainly don't have a drink. That's the most important thing. Yeah. And um, so that doesn't cloud your judgment. It doesn't affect your, the chemicals in your body. You're kind of cleaner. Yeah. And therefore, like, there's a bubble inside me. There's a little, I, I noticed one day after I um, got into recovery, I first went into recovery, I'm walking down the street and the street was, the weather was a bit like today, you know, sunny, and I just feel this little thing. I'm thinking, is that a bubble? A wee bubble inside. And I thought, well, it is kind of. I don't know how else to describe it. And I was just happy to be alive, excited about, you know, looking forward to my, and today, seventy six,

• 24:03Speaker 02

  I'm still looking forward to my future. I'm really. Yeah, too right. Lot going down there, you know. Too right. I mean, you're busier than ever, for goodness sake. And I like that.

• 24:14Speaker 03

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• 26:22Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, when you started on that recovery journey, do you then, because you have clarity, do you then have to sift through the stuff you weren't looking at?

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 26:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's not fun.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Oh, that's the, that's where you have to have the courage to go for it. And, um, and the support, you don't do it on your own.

• 26:42Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  That's the big key. So anybody who thinks they have a problem and just doesn't know what to do, I mean, how could I be chatty happy here? Never say to someone, I need help.

• 26:54Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  I need help because I'm losing myself and I, you know, I'm not happy and, and I know the drinking. I mean, how many people do I know in recovery?

• 27:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  Probably everybody I know.

• 27:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. Everyone you've ever worked with.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just a very, but you know, it's all about timing in our lives, I think.

• 27:13Fearne Cotton?

  It is. Oh, my God, of course.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Time to talk, time to clear out.

• 27:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Time to move forward and, I mean, I've reinvented myself. Probably in my twenties.

• 27:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  In my thirties, forties, fifties, sixties and seventies.

• 27:33Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, how fun, that makes me so excited. It's so fun to have that constant opportunity to reinvent. And there's no one stopping us but ourselves.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 27:42Fearne Cotton?

  We, we always get in our own way, you know, and then when we clear it, we can start again.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 27:47Fearne Cotton?

  And it's so exciting. I love it.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  It is. It's, it's, it's what it is. It's this tremendous hope.

• 27:53Fearne Cotton?

  There is. Do you know what, though? The funny thing is, sometimes when you reinvent yourself or you, and it's not like you've gone out and decided to get a haircut and get new clothes. It's a much deeper seated situation.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  It's the whole, the whole deal.

• 28:05Fearne Cotton?

  Thing where you decide to, whether it's have a different outlook or, you know, stop people pleasing or whatever it might be. It's up to the individual. But it doesn't always please those around you when you have that change. I even had someone, it was a man. Uh, more recently, writes something on Instagram, really salacious about me and he, and he put, oh, what, what reinvention is she talking about? What is she spouting about now or something? And I thought, first of all, fuck you.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Doesn't he have anything else to do?

• 28:34Fearne Cotton?

  No, clearly no. Um, but secondly, like, oh, okay, so that's bothered him that I want to change or have a new chapter. Because he clearly isn't.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  It's frightening.

• 28:44Fearne Cotton?

  This person is, it's frightening, it is frightening. It's frightening to do and it's frightening for those people around you.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Frightening for someone, when you make that change, the people around you have to adjust.

• 28:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  They have to, oh, oh, oh, and you know, you used to do that dance with them. And now you're no longer doing that dance, you're doing the duh, duh, uh, uh, duh, duh, whatever it is, you know what I mean? You're doing your thing.

• 29:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  But they can't do that. So they, they're like, oh, oh, oh, oh, what does this mean for me?

• 29:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a tricky one. And then you've got to, you've got to navigate that. And that's where I think, again, you need the support. You need to know that you're committed to it. There's discipline and courage involved in that.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  And like-minded people around you.

• 29:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Who are on the same journey, the same part of their journey, maybe even if they're younger, they're even on that part and it's. And I think, you know, when I was a kid, that whole thing about being scrappy, you know, and, um. I mean, I didn't, didn't push people or fight with people because I, I, I was a bad person. But it's how you survived in Glasgow in those days. You know, you didn't say, can we have a talk later? I'd like to discuss, you know, how we're going forward with this relationship.

• 29:49Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  You know?

• 29:50Fearne Cotton?

  But isn't it funny how like those parts of yourself that, that you were either told, keep that hidden or you started to not like? I had the same with parts of, I guess, if I look back at footage of me on YouTube and I'm like 15, I'm like, all right, mate. I'm talking like a chimney sweep, like a little Victorian Cockney chimney sweep.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  And Liza Doolittle.

• 30:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, literally. And for years I was like, oh God, I, I can't even bear it.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  I can't bear to look at myself, you hear myself.

• 30:13Fearne Cotton?

  Going, I'm now at the age where I'm like, oh, thank God I was like that. Thank God I was sort of determined and fearless. And put myself out there and all the stuff like, you know, you call that bit of yourself, the scrappy bit. That's what's got you to where you're at today and you start to love that part of yourself.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  That's a very good point, you know, because it's sometimes, you know, I would like. Lulu, you know, you know, I've got to do this part, you know. Most of the time, because, you know, music is my first love and it will be my last. It's all about the music has saved my life many, many, many times. And I talk about that in the book and how amazing, how, how difficult it is to be in the music business. Oh, my god. Child, as a young woman, as a woman, and navigate all that. But then at the end, I love Lulu. Because when I go on that stage and I'm Lulu and I'm giving it, what for?

• 31:11Speaker 02

  I bring a little bit of Marie, the little, yeah, the little rough part of me, the big rough part of me. But, you know, it's not, it's not being pushed down. No. This is the key. I mean, you're a mother. You have to wear a certain hat when you're dealing with your children, when you're dealing with the school, your wife. You, you are now not married. Are you married now or you divorced? Limbo land. Limbo land. So you're there. I mean, I've been there twice. Yeah. So, um, and then, you know, dealing with our parents is another, you know, the hat. So you've got your own mask. Mine were professional. Mine was deep, deep rooted. And it was flying. So I, you know, I, I held on to Lulu and she was doing very well.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  But then I, I something about, you know, where is that other part? I mean, I didn't even say, where is that other part of me? It was uncomfortable and I had to ask the questions. There's the key. Yeah. There's the key. Yeah. Curiosity, I'm curious. And if I fall down or I get stuck, um, because people say to me, what's your secret? What's your secret? People are very kind to me and complimentary most of the time. And when they say, you know, what's your secret? You know, you, you're young or you're young for your age and all that. Well, youth isn't just about the candles on, on the, you know, it's not about the numbers. It's about the spark in your eyes. Yes. Yes. And then if you've got that spark and that goes, so you ask, I figure, I heard somebody say this.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  You've knocked down, you're knocked over, uh, or you're disappointed or you're stuck.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Ask yourself, what next? What's gonna happen next?

• 32:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  And then, that's like oxygen.

• 32:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  So you don't run out of breath. So if people say to me, what's your thing? I think maybe that's part of it, you know?

• 32:57Fearne Cotton?

  There's always something coming. There's always, you're never like, oh, this is it. Oh, wow, I'll just sit in this and feel like shit. It's like, what's next?

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Women at forty used to say, well, you know, the kids are now at school and I don't, they don't need me as much and blah, blah, blah. So what can you do?

• 33:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, too right.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  You've undoubtedly got a talent that is hell down there that has to come up.

• 33:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, without a doubt.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  And like I said, from, from my twenties, I thought it was all over because I couldn't get hit records and, you know, I'd had some and I wanted more and I wanted to be relevant and I didn't want to lose my job. Um, so I changed. I did things and I've done it again and again and again. So.

• 33:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  That's probably my, one of my secrets.

• 33:35Fearne Cotton?

  What, you talk about that era of your life in the book in great detail, you know, sort of that frustration that you weren't getting the songs that you wanted, that sort of soulfulness. And you ended up doing, again, because of this obedience, it's sort of been beat into you, like you will say yes to everything. And your manager would come up with these sort of lighthearted TV shows for you to do or very mainstream stuff that didn't necessarily feed your soul, but it was paying the bills and you were getting your face out there and doing your thing.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  And I heard all the common sense of why it's good to do it. You're building a career. I mean, I'm always building a career.

• 34:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  But I understood that, but it didn't sit comfortably all the time. And I think young women today are really much better at that. You see, when I started, there was, there was nobody, I, I said, well, look how they've done it. Like today, a young person will have, they've watched Christina Aguilera, they've watched Brittany, they've watched the ups, the downs.

• 34:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it was you and a bunch of men. It was you and the Stones and the Beatles and like, what, sorry.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  And they were also still finding their way.

• 34:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  So it's, it's fascinating to look at that.

• 34:39Fearne Cotton?

  It is. I mean, you had a, an incredible collaborative relationship with David Bowie and also sex.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:46Fearne Cotton?

  Um, with David Bowie, which, I mean, I am fascinated by David Bowie.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  You know what? I have never said, yes, I had sex with David Bowie until now. This is the first time, this is the first time I've said it because I've always said. You know, I chose not to speak about it.

• 35:02Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  It was private. And um, if I'm a hundred percent honest, which I I have decided that's what I'm gonna be. Um, I think I was slightly pissed.

• 35:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  I can't really remember.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Only to say that he got me there and we were in his room. And, you know, we performed the act and I don't have to go into bloody details because I can't actually remember details. But I wouldn't share them anyway. I do have boundaries.

• 35:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  I'm learning to what have boundaries, you know. But the point is, I did and I was, it was an incredible experience to work with a guy like that.

• 35:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  To be in his orbit and to be so, you know, he's honored me. I mean, he was just.

• 35:49Fearne Cotton?

  He was fascinated by your talent.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  He was fascinated.

• 35:52Fearne Cotton?

  He was. You could tell by even the conversations that you can recall in the book with him. That he was mesmerized by your voice, saw that rawness, that like Marie bit of you that had that.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Saw the scrapping.

• 36:04Fearne Cotton?

  The power, yeah, the power. And that's why you were like magnets for each other collaboratively, musically. You know, you really gelled and you at the time felt like it was perhaps jarring because you were doing mainstream, you were doing.

• 36:17Speaker 02

  I was on Saturday night television.

• 36:18Fearne Cotton?

  And he was, what, this is a Ziggy Stardust era, Aladdin Sane era? He was, you know, being quirky and weird and cool and doing all of this.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  I mean, he was the coolest dude on the block and I was like, he said he's gonna record me, he's gonna. Yeah, people say all sorts of things. But I'll tell you, soon as I walked back to my room that first night. I got into my room in the hotel. Um, phone rang, it was him. I just left him. And it was, you know, we're gonna do this and I'm gonna da, da, da, da, da. And he was like, oh, no, no, no, no.

• 36:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, I think he's serious. So I was.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  I've felt, you know, I'll be honest with you, I'm only looking for love. I'm only looking to be loved and to give love.

• 37:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  And I don't mean I want to have affairs and it's it's about sex. It's about much deeper thing than that. And I I've um. I that was, there was, we we shared and he's, I felt he saw me. When my record companies were saying, do. Boy, that's the song, and do I'm a tiger. And I'm like, hmm, um, and I went home. And I put on Ray Charles.

• 37:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  You know, so, but he saw through that. He said, they don't know what to do with you, they don't get you, they don't get your voice. So for a young guy to actually. Look deeply into a person or to have taken interest in the person and it just happens to be David Bowie.

• 37:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:48Speaker 02

  You know, but I'll tell you something that happened with Bowie that I've also never really said.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Is that. He was a chameleon. I mean, he was, there's there's never been anyone like him. I mean, people do try to emulate him.

• 38:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  But he is the original.

• 38:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  But he won that one, I think we were in the Chateau Eriville. And he lit a Jitan or whatever those French cigarettes he smoked, Disblu, something like that. Very cool man, very cool. And I meanwhile, I was smoking at the time, I was smoking consulates. They were mint.

• 38:24Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, love a mint fag.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  I mean, how cool was I? Not. So he told me to smoke a Jitan and he lit one and he were, we were at the, in the canteen was sitting, this or two of us. And he leaned forward to me and he looked in my eyes and I leaned forward and I thought, oh my God, what's he gonna say? I think you could lose a bit of weight, he said. Well.

• 38:46Fearne Cotton?

  Not what you, I mean.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  I was crushed.

• 38:50Fearne Cotton?

  Bet you were.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Cause I don't think I was fat. But you know, he was emaciated and I think he really wanted to take me and redesign me.

• 39:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  To get me to a place that he thought was better for me, et cetera, et cetera. And sadly, you know, the thing didn't. I would have loved it to have continued, but you know, when I then went to New York to do the next lot of recordings. David was not in a place that I felt comfortable with because he was doing a lot of drugs and. I mean, I'm not saying letting the cat out of the bag, it's documented.

• 39:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, of course.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  And um.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  I was hanging around a lot. I recorded Can You Hear Me and I recorded another thing called Dodo. Um, I'm a dodo, interesting lyric, but with David Bowie, it was just different. It was different, you know.

• 39:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  Um, but I, you know, it didn't go any further than that because I decided I'm going back to London.

• 39:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  This is really not, I'm not comfortable.

• 39:48Fearne Cotton?

  Amazing, you listened to that intuition, even at, you know, at that young age, you were like, I'm listening to myself.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  I think we all know everything, but it's whether we allow ourselves to, and that's where my meditation comes in.

• 40:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  You know, um.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  It, it, what happens is there is actually a chemical difference in your body when you meditate. And I've been doing it for over forty years. Doesn't mean say I've got all the answers, I've got my life sorted completely, but there's a difference. So I think I knew there are these drugs around and I don't know, am I gonna get caught and get. Given or, you know, remove yourself. And that really is the most common sense thing to do. Remove yourself from a conversation that's going on with people that is distasteful to you or is just bitchin'. And you think, oh, remove yourself politely or not, however you feel you should do it.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  And so that's what I did with Bowie and of course. He thought I was angry with him. I wasn't, I mean, I was maybe frustrated, but I wasn't angry with him.

• 40:56Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  I mean, I just loved him and I just loved his talent. But I thought, oh, you can't just sit around here.

• 41:02Fearne Cotton?

  No, I mean, I think it's remarkable considering you hang around with all of the most, you know, the most famous rock stars, the absolute rock superstars of the heyday, some of which are still going strong like the Stones.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  And how are they?

• 41:14Fearne Cotton?

  Who knows? They're remarkable. But, you know, you were in the mix of that absolute debauchery, yet you stayed really going down the straight and narrow path of this is my career, I'm not gonna mess it up. I think that's amazing.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  I think it was fear-based.

• 41:29Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  I was driven by fear and, you know, I also have, which I think, thank God in my character, that I can feel the fear and do it anyway. You remember that book?

• 41:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that book. Susan Jeffers.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Love that book. But, um, so I do it. I feel the fear and I go,

• 41:45Speaker 02

  okay, let's go.

• 41:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Pull up your diapers, babies, we're coming in, you know? That's what I do. And sometimes it's good. Sometimes, you know, I, you know, it's too much.

• 41:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  But that's my character, you know, and I've, I've come to learn to not always embrace myself and love myself, but more than I ever did. You know, because I still can't say to myself in the mirror, I love you. I go, ew.

• 42:08Fearne Cotton?

  It's so awkward.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  No, but I think it's my actions.

• 42:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  And the way I live my life now is different and it feels better.

• 42:17Fearne Cotton?

  Because you're treating yourself nicely?

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Having some respect and actually, you know what, more than anything, forgiving myself for the things that I didn't get right.

• 42:26Fearne Cotton?

  That is such a big one. I am still on

• 42:30Speaker 02

  I struggle.

• 42:30Fearne Cotton?

  A learning curve with that one.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:32Fearne Cotton?

  There's some stuff I can, there's some stuff where it's like, I, it's so painful to look at some actions or decisions that you've made and to properly forgive yourself. I mean, it's powerful if you can do it. My God.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:45Fearne Cotton?

  Powerful. I mean, when you look back, certainly writing a book, you know, you are quite literally looking through the entirety of your life and obviously your work life started at 15, when the spotlight's on you, there's pressure on you, there's demands, there's opportunity, it's just a roller coaster.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:01Fearne Cotton?

  Do you look back and have any regrets?

• 43:04Speaker 02

  I don't waste my time regretting really, except it will creep in occasionally. I think, oh, I could have done that differently, of course. But I have read enough. I've read every self-help book there is out there.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  I have done therapy, I've given up alcohol. So there is space now for me, if I can't love myself or forgive myself completely.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  I can accept, and that's a big word in my life, accept the things you cannot change.

• 43:37Fearne Cotton?

  It's a hard one.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:39Fearne Cotton?

  It's a hard one.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  That's the serenity for.

• 43:40Fearne Cotton?

  It's peace, yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  And you know, there, there's another hook that I hang things on because I've read other people's autobiographies, their memoirs and how they've gotten through difficult times. And, and, and I've thought, oh, and they've said something, I've, oh, I've got to remember that. I like to hang on to little things, you know, that, you know, I accept, acceptance is so good. I mean, Don Henley. Don Henley's um forgiveness, forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me anymore. There's that whole song, if you li- listen to the lyric, it's all about that. So I, I remember things and if anyone says something to me, how did you do it? And I, I can share what I've learnt.

• 44:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  And that's what you're doing, which is, I think is.

• 44:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  So healing for ourselves, but hopefully healing for somebody else.

• 44:26Fearne Cotton?

  Well, you hope, you only hope so, don't you?

• 44:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:28Fearne Cotton?

  Sharing stories, talking about things that feel deeply uncomfortable, that it somehow makes a difference to somebody, you know.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  But it has done with me. So I think, well, maybe it'll do it with you.

• 44:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Somebody's helped you, you know, it's, you can give a little bit back occasionally, you know?

• 44:42Fearne Cotton?

  Too right.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  So that's why I'm writing the book too.

• 44:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  Is to do that and to relieve myself of carrying secrets.

• 44:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, secrets eat away at you. They really eat away at you. And I think, you know, if you can find even one trusted person that you feel safe saying that thing to.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  That's enough.

• 45:01Fearne Cotton?

  That will be enough.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  I mean, it's certainly the biggest start, the biggest step.

• 45:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  The biggest step.

• 45:07Fearne Cotton?

  And people never react to like, I, I shared something with someone recently that I care about deeply and I felt sort of embarrassed and um nervous to say this thing about myself. And, and the, you know, you're thinking the worst, like they're gonna go, I don't wanna ever meet up with you ever again or be your friend. And of course, that's never the case. People are like, oh, I have a similar situation. In my life.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  Worst story than that, let me tell you mine. And then you're laughing.

• 45:32Fearne Cotton?

  It's the best.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  And that is the great thing.

• 45:33Fearne Cotton?

  It's the great thing.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  That is one of the great things, I think, and I hope it's in the book, you know, because it's hard to be totally objective, you know, but about yourself. But I hope that that comes through, that my life has had so much joy.

• 45:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  That I have a lot of gratitude for what, it's the glass half full, not the glass half empty, you know, which is a great saying again. Um, that's how I I look at my life now. And in fact, it's not that I've made these changes, I've forced them, I've learnt, I've studied, which I have. But you can't force change. It sort of happens.

• 46:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  You kind of imbibe, somebody said to me the other day, what does imbibe mean? Um, what is imbibe, what's another word for imbibe?

• 46:18Fearne Cotton?

  I I always think of it as like drinking something in, you're like drinking in whatever that is.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  And you absorb it.

• 46:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  And that's why I would never talk about being an alcoholic before. But yeah, that's, that's the thing I think too, that's fantastic, you know, change doesn't happen, snap.

• 46:35Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  Cause you make the decision, there's, you know, you have to let it sit, you have to absorb it, the understanding of it. And, you know, so therefore in my life, I've I've been able to make amends.

• 46:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Which is such an incredible thing to do.

• 46:51Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, God, it's so powerful.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Embarrassed to say, look, I have to speak to you and tell you how sorry I am about the stuff.

• 46:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God, saying sorry is a huge one, but it is so beautiful if you can do it.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Powerful.

• 47:04Fearne Cotton?

  So powerful, so relieving.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Powerful effect on our bodies, on our mind.

• 47:10Fearne Cotton?

  I think so, I think so. I had a, I had a fallout with someone a while back and I made the first move to apologize, which was terrifying, because you don't know if you're going to be rejected. I think that's the kind of fear that your apology will be rejected, and it wasn't. And I'm actually so much closer with this person now because we went through the whole big bumpy journey of falling out and now being even better friends.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Cause it's gone deeper, the relationship's deeper.

• 47:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's more meaningful.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  And, you know, in the fellowship, they say it's important to make amends and not be expecting any particular result.

• 47:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  You know, so if the person isn't ready to hear it, first you say, I'd like to speak to you, I'd like to make amends for something that I I believe I did, that was not, it's, it's bad behaviour. Are you ready to hear it? Yeah. And that's the great thing. That's what, that's another thing I learnt, that I can say to a person, can I? And if they say no, you have to take it and you have to think, well, they're not ready yet. It's not their time. But I have made the effort. Exactly. And then if you, like with your friend, it's, I'll tell you a story about me. My, my best girlfriend is an actress called, was an actress called Peggy Lipton. Peggy lived in L A and she died in two nineteen. But I remember at some point, and while I was going through therapy and such like.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  And she's American, I mean, she's L A, they've done loads of therapy. So at one point, we had a thing about this guy that she was flirting with and I said, you know, I quite like him. I don't know why you're flirting with him. She went, oh, whatever she said, I took it a certain way and I was really. And it looked like she didn't hear me. She carried on. Well, I was like, I was heartbroken. My best friend, I love her to bits. So at one point I said to her, look, this is uncomfortable because I'm resentful now. I've got a resentment and it's not, I love you and I don't want to feel this way. How about we have somebody help us to, to get through this? And my sister's a psychotherapist, so. Wow, Sandy. I said to, yeah, it is. And I, I said to Peggy, would, how would you feel if Edwina was the sort of mediator, the third person?

• 49:08Speaker 02

  She said, oh, I'd love it. I love Edwina. So Edwina came in and we're chatting and we're talking and I, when, when you said this, when you did that and I felt, you know, all that stuff. And then something happened and I, I was like not happy with whatever the conversation was. And my sister said, can I come in here? Yes, yes, of course. She said, Peggy didn't say what you just said. I said, yes, she did. She did. She said that. That's what she said. And Edwina said, no, she didn't. Repeat what you just said. And I repeated whatever it was. And Peggy said, no, I didn't say that. Then I felt really uncomfortable. I thought I'm losing it. She said, would, would you like me to tell you what Peggy said? And she told me what Peggy said and I went. That's not what I heard, you see.

• 49:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  My mind was so busy, you know, calculating, going over it, being smart assed. It was, and you know, that was the relief. It was a breakthrough.

• 50:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  With Peggy and I, and until the day she died, she was my best, my bestie.

• 50:11Fearne Cotton?

  But it's horrible admitting that you've got things wrong. It's the worst.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  And it's liberating sometimes.

• 50:16Fearne Cotton?

  But it is liberating.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  It's awkward in your mind, you've got a bit red in the face and you're like, oh my god. It's idiot, you know, which I often am.

• 50:22Fearne Cotton?

  Well, we all, we all are.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:24Fearne Cotton?

  No one wants to say that, but we all are. We, we piss, you know, piss people off, we fuck up all the time. It's like, that's life, that's life.

• 50:32Speaker 08

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• 52:11Fearne Cotton?

  A lot of our listeners are of a similar age to me, like mid 40s.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 52:15Fearne Cotton?

  And you had a particularly turbulent 40s. There was a lot of loss. Your manager and you parted ways.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  Of 20 odd years, yeah.

• 52:22Fearne Cotton?

  She'd been there since you were a child.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  She was like a surrogate mum.

• 52:25Fearne Cotton?

  She was like a surrogate mum. And then your marriage ended with John Frieda, who you'd been married to, you had a child with. How did you navigate that? It's a weird time in your 40s. There can be lots of change. There's a lot of questioning your life and who you are and what you want for the second sort of act, if you will. What got you through that era?

• 52:47Speaker 02

  Of, well, definitely, not just off the top of my head. I threw myself back into music. I hadn't recorded for years. And then I did an album called Independence. That put me back front, in the front, and totally my profile was up. And I had success. And the music thing is always like, that's my soul, that's my soul, you know, that's, that's, that's the thing that's always been there, you know, is my music. So that was a success. My brother, who walked the walk with me, because he said, we've got to go to publishers. You know, in the old days, the publishers used to send songs to your record producer, your NR man. I actually went to the publishers.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  He said, they're gonna, they're not gonna believe it when you walk in, because people like you don't walk in and say, have you got any songs that might work for me? Can you let me hear some stuff? And you make an appointment before, and he said they were like, Lulu? Wow, she's still around? Well, I felt right. So, you know, I got my, the old scrappy money.

• 53:51Fearne Cotton?

  Marie came out.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  She came out.

• 53:53Fearne Cotton?

  Come on, Marie.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  I'll fucking show them I'm still around. And, you know, I bet they think I can't even sing anymore. I'll definitely show them. So that really got me through. But at the same time, I was so broken by, and obviously, you know, what we were talking about before, all the insecurities, all the thinking, I'm not good enough, and who am I anyway? Who the hell am I? You know, was bubbling up. So I went to The Meadows, which is a rehab clinic in Arizona. That I'd been advised, someone I knew who had done the work. And said, you know, your, you know, your, your trauma is all coming up.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Because I felt I'd been abandoned and I felt let down. And I felt that probably I was responsible for it, because that's where my head goes. And I could have done it better and I should have, could have, would have. And so I went and I did a lot of work on myself. And I realized that, you know, the way I behaved in my marriage. My husband didn't just leave me. It obviously built up. I was again in denial about what was going on. And I started to look at myself. What was your part in this? Now, I'm very fortunate that I could pay to go to rehab. And that I had people suggest that to me.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  And it's literally just taking yourself off, working with highly accomplished people in the area of psychology and healing and recovery. And so that helped, I had new tools. New record. Then take that. Yes, take that. And then Tina Turner records this song, it's a worldwide hit. The first song my brother and I wrote. So I felt like, boy, have I got my power back. But I, you know, that, so I did as much work as I could for that time. And not to say that there wasn't more work to do, quite clearly there was. There always is. But that helped me. That helped me my work, because I love my work. I'm sure you're the same. Well, you love it. Can I, I, I can throw it back at you.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm so grateful, I love it. I know you do and you're so good in it. And why wouldn't you keep doing it? And you know, um, so I got a lot of, um, uh, I was valued for, for my success in my work. And I was feeling, well, I, I reinvented myself.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  And that's what I say to any woman, turn the page. Turn it, you never know what's, you never know when the next chapter is gonna be. Because I know I've done it, I've done it, I've done it. Turn the page, you might be surprised.

• 56:32Fearne Cotton?

  How exciting.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  And, and you know, there's hope for like, goodness knows what else you're gonna do in your life. And it, you're forties, you're in your forties.

• 56:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  It's just beginning, it hasn't even started.

• 56:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  That's what I know from my own experience. And I know that, that it's okay for me to talk about myself and tell my truth in a book, a memoir. It's not just about me talking about me, because I'm sick of me, to be honest with you.

• 56:56Fearne Cotton?

  No, I wanna hear the stories.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Look, it can happen.

• 56:59Fearne Cotton?

  Of course. Exactly. God, I feel fired up. This is like the Lulu pep talk that all of us need. We need this on loop, just playing in the mornings. We're like, Turn the fucking page.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 57:10Fearne Cotton?

  What's happening there? It's exciting. It's exciting.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Get knocked down and then think, now what am I gonna do?

• 57:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  And that's what I say to myself if I feel stuck. I hate the idea of being stuck.

• 57:20Fearne Cotton?

  I hate it.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Don't know what to do, don't know where I'm going. So I ask myself the questions and I have things written down. I've got books and pads and iPads and, you know, it's, and that to me is, is exciting. I don't like to use the word exciting too much because in my, in my, my, um, not, not that one shouldn't use the word, but I, I overdo everything. So I try to limit my excitement mode because excitement means you can only come down.

• 57:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  But if you, and now what I, what I'm aiming for in my life is to have an even keel.

• 57:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  Is to accept the hu- huge fabulous wins with the same equilibrium and equipoise that I accept the fuck that didn't happen. I wanted that. Move on.

• 58:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  So I have worked on myself.

• 58:12Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  And I'm really only, only interested in growing.

• 58:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  That's all I'm interested in.

• 58:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:18Speaker 02

  In growing and being loving. And, you know, we talked about being kind to oneself. Cause I'm tough. I mean, even today, my new manager, and it's a young woman, I have a young woman and a young man. And Shoshana will say to me, God, you're so tough on yourself. Just, can't you just accept the win? Hmm. Hmm. Actually, yeah, I can. You know, you can, it's your mind space.

• 58:45Fearne Cotton?

  You get into a habit of just being hard on yourself.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  And you know, and I've learned all that, you know, and I know you know so much of this, you know, it's, it's. But a lot of people maybe don't know it. First of all, people don't know that you can get help if you think you're drinking too much.

• 58:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  And there's no shame in it.

• 58:59Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 59:00Speaker 02

  And you also don't have to tell anybody. You don't have to announce it in the papers. I decided, no. I'm gonna get to know the language. I'm gonna let this land. And I'm gonna get really comfortable with my recovery. And then when I'm ready, I'll talk about it.

• 59:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  Now that.

• 59:15Fearne Cotton?

  Be ready.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  Is not being a pushover. That's making a very important decision. And not handing it over to other people, which I did all the time when I was young. I thought they knew better. And even if I thought they were full of shit, I thought, well, at least they're more experienced. They must know. And they've got that big job. And they're all men with suits. And I think if I'm honest, and I don't know if I've actually said this in the book. Because that's too much. Um, I think I've always been slightly afraid of men. And I think that had to do with my father being aggressive.

• 59:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  And my father was also, let me say, a loving, funny, hysterical man. But the alcohol.

• 59:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  You know, ate away at all his good points. And, you know. They would come out, and that's what it does. If you don't deal with stuff, and he had, my parents were damaged. They had really tough childhoods. And they, you know, they weren't like you or me. They learn about therapy, they learn there's no shame in having therapy and you've got to deal with it, bring it into the light. Cause it festers in the dark. All of the things we've learned. My parents weren't sophisticated and they were of a certain age.

• 1:00:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, they didn't have the opportunity to have that kind of conversation.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  And my father, I loved my father. I loved my mother, even though I hated them at times.

• 1:00:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  Because of their behaviour.

• 1:00:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  You know, and I mean.

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  To talk in this book about. Something that I had blanked and pushed down, connected with my father. That I actually put my father in jail when I was about, I don't know if I was eleven, twelve or thirteen, but around that age. They were fighting so much and I was frightened. One of them would hurt the other one and it would be fatal. And I was, I was the eldest of the four kids and I, well, there was only three at that time. And I ran out of the house and I said, you've got to help me. My mommy and daddy are frightened and one of them is going to kill the other. And so they came with me, the police. It was frightening to do that. I was, like I said, I feel the fear and do it anyway.

• 1:01:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  And that's some, what, of what I, my guru, Guru May says that we know everything. Anything she tells us, we know already. She's just reminding us that we know it.

• 1:01:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  And that's, isn't that true of everything?

• 1:01:41Fearne Cotton?

  We always assume everybody else knows better than us. That's just the thing, isn't it? Like, oh, they know how to do life and I don't, I'm winging it. But everyone else got the book and I didn't get the book with all the rules in it and it's.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  And I'm not, I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not this enough, I'm not the, the, the, whatever the, the old tape is saying. But then, you know, I got, they came, they took my father, they took him to jail overnight and he came back. And she, I mean, oh, it was so painful and so frightening. But I can tell you, not long after, we had the music on and we were all singing and dancing. You know, my life was like, it was tough with the two of them.

• 1:02:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Bloody egits they were. I could see that they were crazy and it was not good. But, and I was, you know, I, I was forced really, without people, anyone saying, I was forced into growing up in a certain way. Even though I was a child.

• 1:02:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  And completely naive. But then there was that love and that.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  So somewhere inside me, I accepted them, I forgave them. But I didn't fully forgive them until I got older.

• 1:02:48Fearne Cotton?

  Um, well, it's a, it's a life's work, all of this stuff, isn't it? It's a life's work, it's, there's no sort of age we can pin, you know, that kind of completion to like, oh, when I'm in this era of my life, I'll understand it all, forgive everybody, feel fine, it's just all day, every day, forever.

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  And you know, that's the only way that we can actually absorb it.

• 1:03:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  Because if we get it all at once.

• 1:03:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's too much.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  There'll be a lot of little holes, like a colander, it'll all seep out, will it?

• 1:03:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  But that's also why we have to be reminded of what we already know, or we think we don't know.

• 1:03:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  And then we know it, and then we have to remind ourselves again.

• 1:03:22Fearne Cotton?

  Again.

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  And then we have to practise it again. I know the more I practise, and that's why I know when I go on stage after sixty two years, I got it.

• 1:03:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  Are you nervous? No.

• 1:03:33Fearne Cotton?

  No, fucking got this, mate.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Wait to get on. I get on and I'm, and I'm like, you know, oh, screaming and singing and then, you know, heart wrenching, I love it.

• 1:03:47Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, this, I probably know the answer to this question because you've just said what you've said, but where is your happy place?

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  Oh, of course. Where is my happy, oh.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  The immediate thing that jumps in is with my grandchildren.

• 1:04:02Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  I mean, because they're just, they're joyful.

• 1:04:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  They're, they're funny, they're smart, isn't it? And you know what? Now I've got to the point.

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  Nana, the first one, my, Bella is fifteen, oh god, she'll kill me. I'm talking about her, but she, she's, what, you know what she does to me, and I wish I knew, and Teddy, they do both do the same, they go, Nana, and they put the, the camera of my phone right up here, and they take a picture of me, and they're screaming with laughter.

• 1:04:31Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  There's a big nose, what is that? And then she, because she's fifteen, I don't hear from her so much.

• 1:04:39Fearne Cotton?

  Right, she's got her own social scene going on, sure, for sure.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  But now she'll just be there, oh, it's Bella. So my phone goes, it's Bella. I go, hi, honey. She goes, hi, Nana. Look, my friends just wanna say hi. Say hi. And she holds it and I go, hi. All right, Nana, bye.

• 1:04:53Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, so cute. That's such a lovely little relationship. I love it.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  You know, that's, that's, it's not a place, but it is a place. It's a place deep inside me.

• 1:05:03Fearne Cotton?

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  And you know, because I didn't have more children, I mean, I have the most fabulous son, of course. I wouldn't say anything else. No mother would. Although I would if he was a sod, I would. I'd say he's a better, I would tell you he was a problem.

• 1:05:16Fearne Cotton?

  He's a good one.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  He's a good one. So he and I have got such a great relationship, but all they do is laugh at me. All they do is, everything I do is funny. Oh, Nan, left, Nana. Oh, God, Nana, turn left here. And I'm like, it's amazing how I survive without you guys. And they laugh and I say, I'm so happy that I'm such a source of joy to you.

• 1:05:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, my mum is like this with my children. Yeah, exactly the same.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  It's like, we're all the same.

• 1:05:41Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly the same.

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  But it's a great place to be.

• 1:05:44Fearne Cotton?

  So lovely, so lovely. Well, I am so grateful that you wrote this book. I got so much from it. Not only the beautiful storytelling, but just how willing you've been to be so honest and share the tougher bits that I think will help so many people out there. Lulu, you are a legend and I love you.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  A legend.

• 1:06:05Fearne Cotton?

  A legend.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you so much.

• 1:06:09Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, imagine Lulu being your nan. That's like the best thing ever. I would love Lulu to be my nan. Um, she's just the most phenomenal woman, the life she has lived, the stories that she just told us, the wisdom that has come from those stories. In these moments, I feel so lucky to do this podcast. I get to sit here and just chat to people who have so much to say. Honestly, I never take it for granted, but in moments like that, I am just, I feel ecstatic that I get the opportunity to do this. And I really hope that you enjoyed listening to that too. Lulu, you absolute legend. Her memoir, If Only You Knew, is out now. Massive thanks again to Lulu, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, just keep being you.

• 1:07:21Speaker 08

  ActiveCampaign is the marketing automation platform built for big swings and big dreams. With intelligent suggestions powered by AI and your data. Generate ideas in seconds, import your brand, and create full campaigns with simple prompts. Set personalized messages backed by real time feedback. Smart segmentation and effortless reporting that tracks every win. Let's redefine what's possible together. Get started for free at activecampaign.com.

• 1:07:52Speaker 05

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