‘Avatar: Fire and Ash’ Burns Bright Before Flaming Out. Plus: Best Picture Power Rankings and the Oscar Short Lists!

Sean and Amanda start the show by reacting to the news that the Oscars broadcast will move to YouTube in 2029, and debate whether or not it’s a good move (1:48). Then, they react to the new trailer for Steven Spielberg’s science fiction film, ‘Disclosure Day’ starring Josh O’Connor and Emily Blunt (12:46). Next, they dive into one of the year’s most anticipated films with James Cameron’s blockbuster sequel ‘Avatar: Fire and Ash’. They celebrate its breathtaking action set pieces, criticize its slow pacing, which they felt dragged the movie down, and explain why it’s a real “you’re mileage may vary” type of movie (15:36). Finally, they cover the Oscars short list (43:45) and take stock of what’s rising and falling, before building their final Best Picture Power Rankings of 2025 (1:00:38). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producers: Jack Sanders and Chris Thomas Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:14Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fennessey.

• 0:15Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm Amanda Dobbins.

• 0:16Sean Fennessey?

  And this is the Big Picture Conversation Show about Avatar: Fire and Ash. Today on the show, we're headed back to Pandora as we dive into the depths of James Cameron's third Avatar film, Fire and Ash. We'll talk about how it stacks up to the previous installments. High frame rate filmmaking, Amanda?

• 0:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Good morning!

• 0:33Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Whether or not a Navi can be hot or sexually desirable?

• 0:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 0:39Sean Fennessey?

  We'll talk about that. Cameron's future with the franchise? Will there be more of these movies? We shall see. We'll also check in on our Best Picture power rankings because this is the last time we'll be discussing that in the year 2025. And this is a movie that may or may not make the cut. We're also going to talk about the trailer for one of our most anticipated movies of 2026 and the Oscar shortlist. And we've just had some crazy news in the world of The Big Picture and the Academy Awards right after this.

• 1:08Amanda Dobbins?

  This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie, there's that last minute scramble to make it all come together? From gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast, free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to amazon.com/prime to shop now.

• 1:30Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, we're back.

• 1:32Amanda Dobbins?

  You're getting so good at your, like, local news. Tonight at 10 p.m., teaser! It's like, you're really coming through for you.

• 1:38Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you. I know. My native broadcaster slash game show host has really popped recently, which is so great because we're all streaming now, baby, including the Academy Awards. The Academy Awards just announced, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, that starting in 2029, they will be moving their telecast from ABC to YouTube.

• 1:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. So we knew the rights were on the block and there were multiple bidders. Would, you know, would ABC Disney pony up again? Would it be Netflix, who's been making a real push into live events and dieballs and all sorts of new programming?

• 2:16Sean Fennessey?

  Movie culture?

• 2:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, yeah. And, or would it be YouTube? And here we are, YouTube wins again.

• 2:26Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:29Sean Fennessey?

  I think this is good.

• 2:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I have no problem with it.

• 2:32Sean Fennessey?

  I, I think it's good. I think it is, I think it's logical.

• 2:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:36Sean Fennessey?

  I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense for the Academy Awards as we know them right now, and probably for its at least immediate future.

• 2:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:45Sean Fennessey?

  And I think it's good for consumers.

• 2:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 2:47Sean Fennessey?

  Who are going to be able to watch this show for free around the world. And I will emphasize around the world because, one, this telecast was not as clearly and easily available in England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, you know, the, a lot of English-speaking countries that would want to watch. Obviously, the, in addition to that, the Academy has gotten so international in the last 10 years, and the Best Picture race has gotten so international. Right now, my gut tells me there's going to be three, maybe even four, foreign language nominees for Best Picture this year.

• 3:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 3:18Sean Fennessey?

  Stands to reason that this becoming the World Historical Movie Awards year by year, which it was not really, for being honest, in the past, but has, it has becoming that. It makes sense that around the world, you'd want to have easy access to this show in one centralized space. This deal makes that so.

• 3:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. I am also okay with it. I mean, I do think user-wise, and I, I tend to think more in terms of consumption of an American audience, because that's like what we've been talking about. But I even think for an American audience, this will be easier and is meeting the audience where it is. And, you know, we've talked a lot about the YouTube threat to the movies writ large, or really to everyone else. It's like, because are people, like, watching things on YouTube, like us right now, I guess, and, or are they watching things on TV or in movie theaters? And I don't really care whether people are

• 4:18Amanda Dobbins?

  watching the Oscars on linear TV versus YouTube. And it's an interesting example of this is about movie culture. The Oscars are promoting movie culture, but it still was a TV show. So I don't think you're threatening, like, the theatrical experience.

• 4:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 4:36Amanda Dobbins?

  By putting the television show honoring movies that used to be watched on ABC on a place where more people can find it. I think it's actually... An instance of making movie culture more available to people who might be interested in it.

• 4:52Sean Fennessey?

  I think it also makes the Oscars as a brand a slightly more totalized streaming experience in ways that are good and bad.

• 4:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 4:59Sean Fennessey?

  The good I'll cite here. One, you basically get to build out the Academy's YouTube presence and then everything related to the Academy all lives in one place. And since the Academy becomes purely associated with YouTube, then when they're airing the governor's ball, as they intend to, that might be more of an event for us to cover, to be a topic of conversation. And then when Tom Cruise gives that speech, it's not something that's happening in a ballroom in the middle of Los Angeles.

• 5:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 5:23Sean Fennessey?

  And then the video will be posted 12 hours later. It's something that people might tune in to watch. All the red carpet coverage is going to end up on YouTube. That's a huge shift.

• 5:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 5:32Sean Fennessey?

  That's a dramatic and fascinating thing. Obviously, places like E will still have access to it, but you're making, you're commodifying all of the apparatuses around the Academy Awards and around the Academy's history into this place. So like, will the Oscar nominees luncheon be appearing on YouTube? Does that mean that that's something that we'll get to see instead of hear about from five to 10 trade reporters? Probably. I would make the most hay out of those things that I probably could. So you get all that. Now, the bad is not a, is more of a, kind of a cosmic, things are different now bad, I would say.

• 6:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 6:05Sean Fennessey?

  That there is inevitably a kind of lowering of the prestige and specialness of the show by making it something that you almost have to watch on a device. You know, like, obviously, people will be watching it on televisions and we will too, but YouTube's association with the sort of like on-the-go, short-form consumption.

• 6:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 6:25Sean Fennessey?

  Versus this historically too-long telecast, there is a bit of signal to noise there. You know, will you pop in and check out the Oscars and then tune out? I guess some people do that on the regular, but, you know, it's less glamorous to be on YouTube. Let's be honest.

• 6:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, right now, anyway, in 2025, but it like it's less glamorous to be on streaming. And what this is, is just a confirmation of that's, as you said, it's a, it's a streaming duopoly. And like, what's interesting in this, in addition to it being on YouTube, is that Netflix didn't get it. Um, and that, that was like my first thought when I saw this.

• 7:02Sean Fennessey?

  What do you think that means? Since they're spending so much money right now, they have the Actors Awards, right?

• 7:07Amanda Dobbins?

  The Actors Awards, I'm sorry. It'll never not be funny to me.

• 7:10Sean Fennessey?

  And it's gonna take a while for that one to sink in. I did remember it, thankfully. But you know, they're getting involved in, in live awards programming. They obviously have spent the last 10 years making awards films. Is it because that would be seen as a conflict of interest? I don't really think so, because ABC was owned by Disney, which also had films that competed.

• 7:26Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I assume it was, I assume it was money. Um, I assumed that, you know, YouTube cut and Google cut a bigger check.

• 7:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 7:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's, um.

• 7:34Sean Fennessey?

  Agreed.

• 7:34Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, you do wonder a little bit whether there's a little bit of conscious, like, and also, we would like to give this to YouTube in order to not give it to Netflix, in order to not, you know, further the seeming monopoly on Hollywood that Netflix is expanding every day this morning.

• 7:50Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 7:51Amanda Dobbins?

  As we're recording, the Paramount bid was rejected by Warner Brothers shareholders, or.

• 7:56Sean Fennessey?

  No, Warner Brothers board.

• 7:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Warner Brothers board recommended to this, yeah, to reject.

• 8:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 8:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, which was expected, but, um, it's, that seems to be inching closer towards Netflix. So, you know, who will know, who, like, ever know if there was a, you know, a little bit of lean towards one offer or another, but, um, I, I certainly thought of that.

• 8:19Sean Fennessey?

  It does feel like the streaming wars are boiling down to a, a death struggle between YouTube and Netflix. Obviously, there are plenty of other places that are gonna draw eyeballs. Disney Plus is not going anywhere.

• 8:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 8:31Sean Fennessey?

  In the world or in my home, but these are really the two big competitors. And, you know, obviously Instagram and TikTok have something to say about that, too, but those are two. Two platforms that are not in pursuit of things like the Academy Awards.

• 8:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly.

• 8:43Sean Fennessey?

  And so.

• 8:44Amanda Dobbins?

  They are short form.

• 8:45Sean Fennessey?

  Exactly.

• 8:46Amanda Dobbins?

  And in terms of longer, please actually watch this for more than five minutes.

• 8:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. And I guess YouTube's gambit here is that this is just a huge advertising play, you know, and that time spent and the way that they'll be able to integrate advertising. And you know, that thing that we talked about earlier this week where it was like, why is the Oscars not just a waystation for the premiere of every single new trailer? Well, that's already what YouTube is on a daily basis. It's the place we go to to look at trailers, and we will get to one momentarily. So that this all feels very logical.

• 9:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. I wonder how it will integrate into YouTube TV and whether it's part of like a strategic play. Though.

• 9:25Sean Fennessey?

  To elevate YouTube TV?

• 9:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but like would they have their own channel? You know, I like, we are a YouTube TV.

• 9:30Sean Fennessey?

  We are as well.

• 9:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Household as well.

• 9:34Amanda Dobbins?

  But are they just gonna then like portal me over to, is this, are they trying to wean me off cable further by this?

• 9:39Sean Fennessey?

  How about this? What if there was an Oscars channel on YouTube TV?

• 9:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, wow.

• 9:43Sean Fennessey?

  You know, I mean, that's the kind of thing that you could do with these kinds of rights. So it's a four-year license. This starts at the 101st Academy Awards, which means the 100th will be the last one on ABC television.

• 9:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, yeah.

• 9:55Sean Fennessey?

  Which, just pure gut check.

• 9:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:59Sean Fennessey?

  Just be, be real with me.

• 10:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 10:01Sean Fennessey?

  Okay?

• 10:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Are we there?

• 10:02Sean Fennessey?

  Will we be making this show?

• 10:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 10:05Sean Fennessey?

  At the, at the first ever YouTube Academy Awards.

• 10:11Amanda Dobbins?

  A lot of people you gotta talk to about that one that aren't me right now. Um, let's see. Beatles movies. What year is that again? For some reason.

• 10:20Sean Fennessey?

  2028?

• 10:21Amanda Dobbins?

  So that's 2028?

• 10:22Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 10:23Amanda Dobbins?

  So 2029 is the year that the Beatles movies would be eligible. And I've said, we gotta hold on one way or another. But I'm gonna have to get my business degree, you know?

• 10:34Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 10:35Amanda Dobbins?

  And then a lot of.

• 10:36Sean Fennessey?

  Well, that's imminent.

• 10:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, sure.

• 10:37Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's coming very shortly.

• 10:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Maybe you can go to-

• 10:39Sean Fennessey?

  You're taking the speed test, right?

• 10:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it's the Kim Kardashian lawyer in business school at home.

• 10:45Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, great.

• 10:46Amanda Dobbins?

  And maybe I'll throw a JD in there as well.

• 10:49Sean Fennessey?

  Right, okay.

• 10:49Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, just to really represent our interests fully.

• 10:51Sean Fennessey?

  Uh huh.

• 10:52Amanda Dobbins?

  But we have, I, I have said at least that we gotta hold on, at least through the Sam Mendes Beatles movies.

• 11:00Sean Fennessey?

  Like, hold on to the, to our lives? Like, or to this, this, this show?

• 11:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Both.

• 11:04Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 11:05Amanda Dobbins?

  We, well, we just need a place to put our feelings.

• 11:07Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 11:08Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, like, I haven't done this for as long as we've been doing this, to not have a platform to talk about-

• 11:15Sean Fennessey?

  I see.

• 11:16Amanda Dobbins?

  -these four guys-

• 11:17Sean Fennessey?

  I see.

• 11:17Amanda Dobbins?

  -as Beatles and Sam Mendes making four movies.

• 11:21Sean Fennessey?

  That makes me wanna cancel the show so that you have to go on IG Live when the movies come out and like, respond to people asking questions for 17 hours.

• 11:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Who says I won't do that anyway?

• 11:31Sean Fennessey?

  Regardless, we might do it regardless.

• 11:34Amanda Dobbins?

  So, but anyway, that's April 7th, 2028, and they would be eligible for the first YouTube Oscars.

• 11:41Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, that, that was-

• 11:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Hosted by Joseph Quinn.

• 11:42Sean Fennessey?

  That means those movies are gonna be out less than a month after the 100th Academy Awards.

• 11:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 11:51Sean Fennessey?

  And in honor of that, I'll be watching all 100 telecasts consecutively. And I'm really excited about that, and I'll be streaming it on Twitch.

• 11:59Sean Fennessey?

  Any other thoughts on this? I mean, this is just tectonic news. It is, it is huge news. The, the, the earth under our feet is moving.

• 12:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Is, are you surprised?

• 12:10Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, no, when you, when you, when you, when you calm down, it's incredibly logical.

• 12:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. I think I wasn't, I wasn't surprised. I was like, oh, they got it. Like, oh, you know, it's a little bit of, it's YouTube flexing and being like, yes, we are in fact YouTube. And you, you guys have all been in a panic about all your other little stuff and where your movies are gonna go. And, and then here we are.

• 12:31Sean Fennessey?

  I genuinely like that it is broadcast by a company that is not actually making movies. I think there is something coherent about that. And that's really never been the case. So, um, anyway, I think it's a good thing.

• 12:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 12:45Sean Fennessey?

  All right. I mentioned trailers.

• 12:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 12:48Sean Fennessey?

  We were trying to figure out last week with Joanna, the name of the Steven Spielberg film. Was it Disclosure? And was it a remake of the Michael Crichton adaptation from the 1990s about sexual harassment in the workplace? Was it Disclosure Day? It was in fact Disclosure Day.

• 13:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 13:01Sean Fennessey?

  Trailer hit.

• 13:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:02Sean Fennessey?

  This is in fact- Some kind of alien invasion thriller starring Emily Blunt and Josh O'Connor.

• 13:11Sean Fennessey?

  What did you think of the trailer?

• 13:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Josh O'Connor forever. Put him at number three. I enjoyed his SNL hosting.

• 13:18Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, I didn't see any of that.

• 13:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I just, I just watched some clips. It was just mostly him in sweaters or giggling, you know?

• 13:25Sean Fennessey?

  It's nice.

• 13:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Just, just a big fan. Speaking of sweaters, I'm really sorry, but like, is this come to Garson sweater new?

• 13:31Sean Fennessey?

  Actually quite old. I just remembered I have it.

• 13:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, but like it's new in the rotation, right? I clocked it during when you were talking about like the future of Hollywood and I was like, excuse me, Sean, did we go shopping without me? Okay, thank you.

• 13:43Sean Fennessey?

  We've never been shopping together.

• 13:45Amanda Dobbins?

  That's really not true. And in fact, I picked up the Navy jacket, the barn jacket that you pick out all the time. I picked out for you.

• 13:51Sean Fennessey?

  That's true. I have it with me today.

• 13:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, I know. You're welcome. Anyway.

• 13:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Pro Josh O'Connor, pro Steven Spielberg. I'm, I'm open to this.

• 14:02Sean Fennessey?

  I thought it was an absolutely thrilling thriller.

• 14:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Sean Fennessey?

  I am astonished that a 70 year old man would make a movie this big. Keeps happening.

• 14:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 14:09Sean Fennessey?

  Ridley Scott did this twice with Gladiator 2 and The Last Duel. We just saw Martin Scorsese make Killers of the Flower Moon. This is a, you know, Francis Ford Coppola in Megalopolis.

• 14:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 14:20Sean Fennessey?

  This is a trend that is happening now. The film obviously is very much in the succession of stories like this that he has been making over the years. From Close Encounters of the Third Kind to E.T., to War of the Worlds. The sound design of this trailer is incredible in terms of what is happening to Emily Blunt's voice in the opening moments. And I'm very excited. There are a few images that are CGI created that don't look good. And I'll just be honest about that. There is one shot in particular near the end of the trailer where we see a young girl and I believe it's a moose.

• 14:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 14:54Sean Fennessey?

  And a bird and they are standing before a lit up home.

• 14:58Amanda Dobbins?

  It looks a little bit more like a shot from Robert's Mexes here than you want it to.

• 15:03Sean Fennessey?

  It does. Or like an AI Hallmark card. So I didn't love that, but everything that was clearly practically done, for example, the car chase moment they show us very briefly, looks incredible. So I'm hoping that it's more of that and less of the former.

• 15:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 15:17Sean Fennessey?

  But I'm fired up. An original summer blockbuster about aliens from Steven Spielberg, June 12th. Good stuff.

• 15:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Put it in the calendar.

• 15:27Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 15:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you think we'll be doing the podcast then?

• 15:31Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, gosh, I hope so. I sure hope so. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach, and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not-so-great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that: bullspend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn Ads. You can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So, cut the bullspend, advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn

• 16:12Sean Fennessey?

  Ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com/thebigpicture. That's LinkedIn.com/thebigpicture. Terms and conditions apply.

• 16:24Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, speaking of blockbusters, it's time to talk about Fire and Ash.

• 16:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 16:28Sean Fennessey?

  Now, huh, this is interesting. So, new film, directed by Cameron, of course, written by Cameron, Rick Jaffa, and Amanda Silver, shot by Russell Carpenter, again. As always, the film stars Sam Worthington and Zoe Saldana. Sigourney Weaver is back, Stephen Lang is back, Kate Winslet is back. Introducing Una Chaplin, Jack Champion is back in the movie. The logline for Fire and Ash is, "A year after settling in with the Metcalf Clan, Jake and Nateri's family grapples with grief after Neteam's death." That's their son. "They encounter a new aggressive Navi tribe, the Monguan Clan, also called the Ash People, led by the fiery tribe leader, Varang, who has allied with Jake's enemy, Korich, as the conflict on Pandora escalates to devastating consequences."

• 17:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Great, great summary.

• 17:15Sean Fennessey?

  Those are great names.

• 17:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Did you write that yourself?

• 17:17Sean Fennessey?

  I did not.

• 17:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Um, we saw this film together.

• 17:20Sean Fennessey?

  We did.

• 17:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, we saw this. I got there right on time. And you'd saved me a seat, but we were sitting one row back from the whole Ringer verse clan. Even though there were seats next to them in their row in front, and I wanted to ask you what that was about.

• 17:36Sean Fennessey?

  I was there before most of those people. Uh, and I also thought that that whole row was taken and then so I had to save you a seat.

• 17:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, thank you.

• 17:43Sean Fennessey?

  But in fact, it was not taken.

• 17:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. I, well, I appreciate it.

• 17:46Sean Fennessey?

  Nothing against them. I spent the entire 30 minutes that I was there before the movie started talking to Van and Jomi.

• 17:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, as did I once I arrived, but I just, you know, so, so they were there. Um, and they were, they were with us, but apart.

• 18:00Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and they, they had a different experience watching the movie from you.

• 18:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:04Sean Fennessey?

  What did you think?

• 18:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, it's a no for me, dog. Like it's, uh, it's respectfully, the experiment has run out. Not.

• 18:13Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 18:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Here, okay. All right. Let's be real. Let's, let's respect.

• 18:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, for the first time ever, you're gonna be honest on the podcast, finally. I've been waiting years for you to just speak your truth.

• 18:24Amanda Dobbins?

  James Cameron, uh, is a legend and good at making movies. And technically, I still think that these movies are incredible. And they look so much better than all the other CGI slop. And all of the other, you know, animated, like the created worlds that we see on screen. It is a completely different league. You watch a movie like this and then you get mad that you have to go back and watch a Marvel movie or, you know, Super Mario's, like, whatever. It just doesn't, they're like, the technical craft achievement. Undeniable. It looks really, really good.

• 19:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I do not care about these characters, in part because I think this story is such a retread of the last one. And so bogged down in its, and so infatuated with its own ideas. That it loses like basic pacing and plotting and communication of who these people are. So in the end, it was just, uh, Big Jim and all of his toys, computers and guns together. And I just wasn't involved.

• 19:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I think I share the same criticism, but that ultimately didn't, doesn't make me dislike the movie. I think because I, the highs in this movie are so incredibly high relative to any other blockbuster that's come out this year.

• 19:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 19:56Sean Fennessey?

  That I was swayed often enough to come out liking it. I do not feel as positively about this movie as The Way of Water, even though this movie might have higher highs. I don't think it's as complete a story as that movie was. And I completely agree with you about the very odd decisions in the script to just reiterate and replay moments from the first film. In some cases, beat for beat. And I don't, you know, we, we know that the, the movies were originally written to be one and they were split in half.

• 20:30Amanda Dobbins?

  We gotta stop doing that.

• 20:31Sean Fennessey?

  I agree.

• 20:31Amanda Dobbins?

  We got, it's just, that means that you haven't finished editing the one movie that you have. No, no, I mean like, or the one script that you have.

• 20:39Sean Fennessey?

  The story.

• 20:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 20:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I, I agree with you. But what's so crazy about that is that, so does that mean if the films were together, that they would feature together incidents repeating themselves? Like particular sieges on ships that happened in the third act of this film, which feel very similar to sieges on ships in the, in the second Avatar film?

• 20:57Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I think, I mean, it would be that you have to make choices, you know, and that you aren't doing things again, or doing it even bigger. And there are just really no, there are no choices, no cuts made in this movie. It's just like, let's do this again, and let's do this again, and let's do it bigger.

• 21:16Sean Fennessey?

  Well, okay, so let me talk, speak specifically, I think I said this to you and Mallory immediately after the film, that the film is a, a bit of a complex thing to digest because it's three hours and 14 minutes. It's even longer than the last film, which was quite long, as the listeners of our watch along pod know. And you will get a high, high moment, and there's a high, high moment in the first act, where the family, Neteri and Jake and their children are trying to leave the Metcayina Clan, and they're, they're gonna take these kind of like jellyfish dragons that are transporting them around. And they're trying to get Spider away from the Metcayina Clan and away from Korch being

• 21:57Sean Fennessey?

  able to find them, is his father, you know, who's been hunting for him since the second film.

• 22:04Sean Fennessey?

  And there's a battle sequence with the Ash people on these jellyfish dragons. I don't know what they're called. I apologize to those who know the lore and anthropology of the world of Pandora. And it is just absolute 10 out of 10 Cameronian mania. Like, just really exciting action, great staging. It's all very coherent. So many movies like this, and maybe because so much of this work is done in, in, um, in post, but as you see in the materials, like going behind the scenes, like they are actually using real rigs, real environments to design and execute on a lot of these sequences. And then after that sequence, which is very dramatic, movies just slow down a lot and

• 22:46Sean Fennessey?

  they really take their time letting the characters sit inside the sadness or the alienation or the isolation that they all experience. They all get kind of spread apart and then the film kind of

• 22:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 22:58Sean Fennessey?

  sets out to hopefully reunite the family over the course of the film. But he is really comfortable sitting in that anguish and the movie slows down a lot multiple times and it just kind of messes with the pacing, you know? It just, it's just draggy.

• 23:14Amanda Dobbins?

  And there's just, there are also some logistical issues. I don't know where everyone is once they're all separated. And I personally don't remember who all of the characters are with enough detail in order to, you know, you're, you're figuring it out as you go along, but you separate all these people.

• 23:37Sean Fennessey?

  Cause you're not the racist.

• 23:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 23:38Sean Fennessey?

  You think they all look the same.

• 23:39Amanda Dobbins?

  That's so true. For a million dollars, our friend Michael Lasker sent us a tweet that was like, for a million dollars, can you name three of these people? And you did, but it took you a little while.

• 23:48Sean Fennessey?

  I was just busy. I wasn't able to respond to that quickly. My guy, Loa'k, huge movie for Loa'k.

• 23:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 23:54Sean Fennessey?

  For the Loa'k heads.

• 23:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 23:55Sean Fennessey?

  And for Pya'kon.

• 23:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Redemption, I guess.

• 23:59Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Though I honestly don't remember, are they redeemed in the end? I, this is the thing, I just like, I don't remember what happens. I, I watched this movie and because like they're all separated and they're-

• 24:10Sean Fennessey?

  But we saw it two weeks ago.

• 24:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, but they're also, there's not, there's not a lot of development. They, they all get put in different places.

• 24:19Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:20Amanda Dobbins?

  And the point is just they like gotta get back together and then fight a lot with guns and I-

• 24:25Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I think one of the reasons why and one of the flaws of the movie to me is because there's more emphasis in this movie on Spider, who is the human who has become a kind of adopted member of the family who's played by Jack Champion, and who is put in, I think, a tough spot in this movie. Early on in the film, he's really in peril and he is revived in a kind of magical way by Kiri, the Sigourney Weaver character.

• 24:45Amanda Dobbins?

  That's, um, you went to the bathroom for that?

• 24:47Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, but I'm, I'm aware that that happened.

• 24:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you like didn't really get the full like extent of what's going on. But that's an, it's an incredible Sigourney Weaver, like pretending to have a Navi orgasm. Like it was, it was unreal. Van in front of me was just like, what is happening? And then I, like, and I was like sitting in the aisle by myself being like, I need someone. It goes on and on and on because she connects to the spirit tree.

• 25:11Sean Fennessey?

  I was in the bathroom for like 98 seconds?

• 25:14Amanda Dobbins?

  I, and it, but it, e- experientially, it goes on for a while. And there's like a lot of swaying and you're like, what is happening?

• 25:22Sean Fennessey?

  Orgasm, just out of curiosity?

• 25:24Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I, I think that that's great. It, I would remind you that Kiri is like a teenager and it is Sigourney Weaver-

• 25:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, but Navi years, like how does that work developmentally?

• 25:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm not gonna insert myself into that.

• 25:36Sean Fennessey?

  Sigourney Weaver, you know, she's a 70-year-old woman, like it's okay.

• 25:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, that's, I know, that's true. And that's, I'm glad, you know, life goes on and women, you know, experience new sexual health at all ages. And that's really, really important, you know?

• 25:52Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not done talking about Navi sex, just for the record on this episode. I've got a lot more on this.

• 25:58Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, we've made movement on perimenopause and menopause, but it's just, there's a, there's a world and a life beyond.

• 26:04Sean Fennessey?

  I'm, I'm getting ready to talk about Varang. Just wait for that.

• 26:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, we will. We'll talk about it. It's really long and I still, this is another thing. Like I, I don't understand the rules of the spirit tree. I don't feel that the logic and, uh, world of Pandora are effectively communicated to me.

• 26:25Sean Fennessey?

  Cinema sins Dobbins, concerned about the logic of Pandora.

• 26:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I, I turned to you at the beginning of this movie. What did I ask you?

• 26:33Sean Fennessey?

  I don't remember. What did you say?

• 26:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I asked you if Pandora was real.

• 26:36Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:36Amanda Dobbins?

  And you were like.

• 26:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, you did.

• 26:38Amanda Dobbins?

  No, but what I was trying to ask you was, is Pandora real?

• 26:43Sean Fennessey?

  You were like, is it a state of mind or is it?

• 26:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Is it a real place in the universe of, in the like world of Avatar?

• 26:49Sean Fennessey?

  Step back and think about what your job is, is an insane question to ask, having watched two films about the planet Pandora, where all of the action takes place.

• 26:59Amanda Dobbins?

  I've told you that a lot of this, this sci-fi mumbo jumbo often goes over my head and I do often think that it's, when it's, when it is legibly and clearly stated and you can put like, where I can put my arms, my brain around it, then I, like, I do think that's evidence of good storytelling, but if it's too complicated or if it's just too, if it requires like too many flights of fancy, I do begin to fit all, like, forget all the bits and bobs.

• 27:31Sean Fennessey?

  I hear what you're saying. I think that these movies are very much a go with it experience and you kind of have to go with it. Very few people in their lives will be asked to speak for one hour consecutively about a movie they saw two weeks ago. We have a very odd job. But with that in mind, ironically, relative to what you're saying, these movies are very simple. You know, the, what the, the plotting and the arcs are very simple. It's like, a father who wants to reunite with his son, another father grieving his son, this, the preservation of the ecology of this planet. You know, aquatic life. And the mystery therein and how we protect that life, all these themes and ideas are all the same.

• 28:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but when you slow it down and stretch it out, you give people more time to be like, okay, so why is she allowed to connect to the tree right now?

• 28:15Sean Fennessey?

  You're right.

• 28:15Amanda Dobbins?

  What she can't before, why can't they just connect to the tree all the time? Like, why is only she connecting to the tree? Like, there's, there's lots of room for question.

• 28:24Sean Fennessey?

  Why is Hillary Clinton not working on this right now? Why is she not explaining to us the tree logic of Pandora?

• 28:30Amanda Dobbins?

  The Kate Winslet character is like, not, not Hillary Clinton-esque.

• 28:34Sean Fennessey?

  She isn't, she's surprisingly not in the film very much.

• 28:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 28:38Sean Fennessey?

  I had been led to believe she was a significant part of this series, and I would not describe it as such. The person who is a significant part of this series is the actress Una Chaplin.

• 28:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 28:47Sean Fennessey?

  The granddaughter of Charlie Chaplin, perhaps best known for her work on Game of Thrones in the early seasons.

• 28:53Amanda Dobbins?

  I figured out what I knew her from, which was another, I spent another 10 minutes being like, what's she in? What's she in? But like, at a respectable volume, we were in the back of the theater and you didn't know. I mean, she was the wife on the hour.

• 29:04Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, that's right.

• 29:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, the Dominic West series, yes.

• 29:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, great show.

• 29:07Sean Fennessey?

  And Romola Garai.

• 29:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 29:09Sean Fennessey?

  Great, she's a great actress and she does something that I think really, truly only Zoe Saldana has been able to do, which is to become real, in a way, to actually convey a kind of personality through the Na'vi. I think Sigourney Weaver does good work, Sam Worthington does good work in these movies, Stephen Lane does good work. But Varrang, who is the leader of the Ash people tribe, who, you know, for sort of like, I guess, classically domineering, survivalist reasons, wants to be the only surviving Na'vi tribe,

• 29:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 29:43Sean Fennessey?

  Attacks all of its, I guess, genealogical competitors. And so they are at this kind of war.

• 29:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, didn't they get burned out of their home? And so now they need other homes?

• 29:54Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 29:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 29:56Sean Fennessey?

  But, you know.

• 29:56Amanda Dobbins?

  But it was sort of like a-

• 29:57Sean Fennessey?

  The way in which they pursue that is a little hazy.

• 29:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Prometheus-type, the fire, we discovered the fire, but then it ruined us. And I was like, I'm not really sure what you're trying to stay, say here.

• 30:06Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 30:06Amanda Dobbins?

  And then, yeah, then they've just become.

• 30:12Sean Fennessey?

  They're in pursuit of violent conflict.

• 30:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 30:13Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and they're, they're, they're trying to take over as much of Pandora as they possibly can, even though they're a relatively small tribe, based on what we see. Nevertheless, they become the big bads of the movie, or at least the first half of the movie, and Varrang.

• 30:27Sean Fennessey?

  She's, she's very sexy. I don't know what to say. She's a very alluring, hips forward Navi.

• 30:35Amanda Dobbins?

  A little skinny, all like all the Navi.

• 30:38Sean Fennessey?

  A little skinny. Where are the fat Navi? That's a really good question.

• 30:41Amanda Dobbins?

  They don't exist and like the body image in Avatar is not what one would want.

• 30:45Sean Fennessey?

  That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

• 30:47Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not good. We're back to

• 30:49Sean Fennessey?

  There must be someone.

• 30:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Quote unquote, heroin chic. There aren't.

• 30:51Sean Fennessey?

  But someone in Pandora who just like eats too many Cheez-Its, you know?

• 30:54Amanda Dobbins?

  They don't have Cheez-Its because they're in touch with the, you know, natural world and also Jim Cameron is a vegan and so he's against processed foods.

• 31:04Sean Fennessey?

  That's right. That's right.

• 31:07Sean Fennessey?

  Well, nevertheless, Varang, she's got it like that and Korich notices.

• 31:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Sean Fennessey?

  And Korich, who is, you know, in pursuit of Spider and Jake Sully. And he wants to capture Jake, his mortal enemy and, and bring his son home. He falls in with Varang and there's an incredible sequence in this movie.

• 31:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, this part's really good.

• 31:26Sean Fennessey?

  Where she tempts him into a tent and he thinks he's in the power position. And then she gets him to snort what I guess is Navi PCP.

• 31:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 31:39Sean Fennessey?

  And he begins hallucinating. And then in his hallucination, the film turns into this psychedelic seduction. And

• 31:47Amanda Dobbins?

  It was very cool.

• 31:49Sean Fennessey?

  It's a, it's a great moment in the movie.

• 31:50Amanda Dobbins?

  I thought it was very funny.

• 31:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I was entertained.

• 31:52Sean Fennessey?

  It's very amusing and it is very much like James Cameron, you know, child of the sixties, letting his freak flag fly, you know, going back to his hippie days of experimenting.

• 32:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Is it documented that he was a hippie and on and?

• 32:07Sean Fennessey?

  I think he was, he was a

• 32:08Amanda Dobbins?

  He seems a little control freak to

• 32:10Sean Fennessey?

  He was definitely like a rector set science guy for sure.

• 32:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 32:13Sean Fennessey?

  But I think he also was like a let his freak flag fly guy, you know, like

• 32:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I

• 32:17Sean Fennessey?

  This guy was married to Linda Hamilton and Catherine Bigelow. Like he could, he knew what he was doing.

• 32:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Totally, but like this is not a man who to me seems like he's ready to let the spirits take over.

• 32:26Sean Fennessey?

  Well, maybe not now.

• 32:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Which, and it's like, it's like a take one to no one situation.

• 32:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, but he might want to plug into that tree now. It's more spiritual rather than his experimental with others.

• 32:35Amanda Dobbins?

  So you think he's like an ayahuasca type guy?

• 32:37Sean Fennessey?

  Well, see, I felt like the, the, the The Varang Coke was more like ayahuasca. Like that was what it was meant to induce. Whereas the tree is this like, I'm connecting with, with a greater god. You know, something beyond me. And that's the polarity, I think, of the boomer. You know, the boomer is kind of stuck between, is it god? Or is it the devil? And these are the two representations. This film is incredibly deep as an exploration of.

• 32:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I was, I was shaking my head at boomers, you know? Like, it's just, it's not where I want to be.

• 33:03Sean Fennessey?

  They won't let go.

• 33:03Amanda Dobbins?

  They really won't.

• 33:04Sean Fennessey?

  They will not let go.

• 33:06Amanda Dobbins?

  It's just very boring. Um, yeah, that was a good scene. It's like, there are amusing parts of it, but I think we've made it, what? 75 minutes into the movie?

• 33:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and that's the thing is that Varang is extremely, um, hostile and intense, and she's a great villain. She's, she's, you really hate her. You really, you know, despite my, my attraction to her, she's, she's evil and she's, she's attacking.

• 33:28Amanda Dobbins?

  You don't hate her. She is like the classical villain that you're like turned on by. And you're like, no, I, maybe that's the person that I want to spend the most time with.

• 33:37Sean Fennessey?

  Right. And, but then when she enters Corrit's atmosphere, he kind of just like blots her out a lot.

• 33:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Sean Fennessey?

  And then she becomes a part of his story and she gets like less dialogue. Let's, she becomes less powerful. And the film really takes a big dip into the second act, I think. Once you get like roughly an hour, hour, 20 minutes into the movie. There is a lot of action and a lot of stuff that transpires that is interesting. You know, our guy Pya Khan, the whale does go on trial at a certain point. He gets railroaded by the whale jury. And, you know, it's like straight out of the hurricane. You know, it's like, he was not there that night. Like he did, he's not guilty. You have to free Pya Khan. You should not be imprisoning him. He is, he is a whale who deserves to swim in the ocean freely and not be outcast by his own people. And, uh, you know, a lot of parallels there with how Lowak feels inside of his own family, you know?

• 34:27Sean Fennessey?

  And that's his spirit guide.

• 34:30Amanda Dobbins?

  That's literalized.

• 34:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 34:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, I liked the whale council.

• 34:33Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 34:34Amanda Dobbins?

  That, that was funny. I didn't understand, then once again.

• 34:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Piakan is exiled and then there are other whales that he's talking to. But like, I didn't know, he goes far away and I didn't know who else was talking to him.

• 34:49Sean Fennessey?

  It's a fair point. We don't really, because the Tolkun's don't really speak English. It's a little hard to know like where they are and where they're going.

• 34:57Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not, it's, I don't mind subtitles. I'm not Chris Ryan. It's just that it, I, it was not made clear who the other whales. And then he just like has to go away to come back. I like, I didn't understand what the point of the journey was.

• 35:14Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, I, I think it's that. I think it's just that classical thing where a character needs to experience exile and isolation in order to come back even stronger and save the day, which is something that you see in a lot of Cameron movies. Then one of the reasons why I think the movie is struggling a bit is that this is actually despite his long and historic career, something Cameron's never done before. He's never made a third movie in a series. And he definitely has not made three consecutive movies in a series before. He's made Aliens, which is magnificent, but he did not make Alien. The extension of a story, he seems to be like a little flummoxed with how to keep it going. And I think a lot of your criticisms are, are down to that. Where it's sort of like, I built this world. Okay. I got all this cool stuff in my world.

• 35:59Sean Fennessey?

  But then even in terms of the Ash people, like, he just doesn't really fully explore that stuff. Like, we don't really get their world for the last hour and a half of the movie. And I, I thought that there was going to be like a big conclusive fight on a volcano.

• 36:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Hmm.

• 36:14Sean Fennessey?

  To end the movie. And that's not what we, it's another battle on the water in the third act.

• 36:17Amanda Dobbins?

  It is true that this is a film titled Fire and Ash. And there's very little fire and almost no ash.

• 36:25Sean Fennessey?

  Where's all this ash?

• 36:26Amanda Dobbins?

  It's in the water.

• 36:27Sean Fennessey?

  No, it's fucking, it's up Cora's nose.

• 36:29Amanda Dobbins?

  I guess so. That's true.

• 36:31Sean Fennessey?

  Got that booger ash. Um, I.

• 36:35Sean Fennessey?

  I did like a lot of the submarine, subterranean stuff in the movie, especially the crazy attacking squids that play a big role in the third act.

• 36:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, those were why you chuckled a lot when they showed up.

• 36:45Sean Fennessey?

  That was just like maniac Cameron action stuff that I was loving. There are moments where I was delighted during this movie.

• 36:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:53Sean Fennessey?

  But I can't disagree with a lot of what you're saying in terms of what doesn't really functionally work that well about it. But I also do like it as this crazy man's representation of like all of his interests at this stage of his life. I think there's something cool about that. And like also like just clearly as a father and somebody who's spent way too much time at work. He's like, he's going through it with the way that Jake Sully had his relationship to Loach, to Spider, you know, to Kiri, to like who belongs in the clan and who doesn't, who's getting his time, who doesn't. Should you be more of an authoritarian leader and father? Should you be softer and warmer to your children? Like, this feels autobiographical, does it not?

• 37:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I guess so.

• 37:32Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 37:33Amanda Dobbins?

  No, it does, but I was literally just trying to be like, okay, so Jake, he tries to like ditch Spider somewhere.

• 37:39Sean Fennessey?

  Well, he tries to kill him. I mean, he, he, he lines up to, to, to sacrifice him.

• 37:45Amanda Dobbins?

  And then they say no.

• 37:47Sean Fennessey?

  Of course, he loves him.

• 37:47Amanda Dobbins?

  And then the kids, yeah. I, I was just thinking more about how the, the moms are entirely sidelined until the very end where, spoiler alert, Kate Winslet's character, who's been pregnant for all of two films. I'm not really sure like what the-

• 38:05Sean Fennessey?

  Twenty seven years. That's the gestation period on Pandora. It's twenty seven years to give one-

• 38:10Amanda Dobbins?

  How long is a year on Pandora, though?

• 38:12Sean Fennessey?

  Oh.

• 38:14Amanda Dobbins?

  The ha, there you go, Mr. Science Quarter.

• 38:17Sean Fennessey?

  Time is meaningless and yet it controls us anyway.

• 38:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Anyway.

• 38:21Sean Fennessey?

  What is the quote, remind me from One Battle?

• 38:25Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't, it's, yeah, time doesn't exist, but it controls us anyway.

• 38:29Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you.

• 38:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, so she has a classic, you know. I'm dying, but I gotta give life to this baby first because that's like what true mamas do moment. And then Neteiri, who has been nowhere for the whole movie, which sucks, shows up and is like, okay, I will, you know, preside over this most like holy act of woman warriorhood, which is you pushing out a baby, which like true or whatever. And then Kate Winslet, out, which is disappointing.

• 39:02Sean Fennessey?

  It is a you got this mama movie in a lot of ways. As much as it is a dad in crisis movie, it's also a you got this mama movie. That's beautiful.

• 39:10Amanda Dobbins?

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• 39:40Sean Fennessey?

  I half jokingly, but maybe quite seriously tweeted the movie is a soft remake of John Ford's Drums Along the Mohawk. I don't know why that hit my mind, but it is true. And there is a certain kind of a movie about invaders of a native land, and one group wants to fight for their independence. And then the loyalists want to retain the colonial pride and the crown. And in that movie on the New York frontier, the loyalists conscript the Native American people on that land to fight alongside them against the revolutionaries.

• 40:17Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's a pretty clever, smart idea for like a war movie inside of this modern time. Like, I think it works and it makes sense. It's something that you see like in foreign conflicts all the time in 2025, too. So like, that's an aspect of the movie that I thought was smart, that I liked the idea of Varrang and her crew, like, joining the humans and being, and that there's a confrontation with Korich and Edie Falco's general character. You know, when, when the fire people, the ash people come back to the human base, that is very amusing. Edie Falco is in a lot of this movie, more than I expected. She looks at some transparent screens and yells a lot.

• 40:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. And she's also in one of the-

• 40:53Sean Fennessey?

  He's a power loader.

• 40:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Is that the power loader in this movie, though, or is that just in Way of Water?

• 40:58Sean Fennessey?

  I think so.

• 41:02Sean Fennessey?

  A lot of Jemaine Clement, you know? And he has a surprisingly heroic redemption arc in this movie. And the way that he, yeah, and, and, and works to free imprisoned Na'vi. I don't, I think this movie is pretty cool.

• 41:17Amanda Dobbins?

  I think, I think that's fine. It's, it is a real, your mileage may vary situation. And it's clear that Big Jim is having a great time. And you had a great time. I think Van Lathan had a great time.

• 41:30Sean Fennessey?

  He stood and clapped at the end of the film.

• 41:32Amanda Dobbins?

  He did. So like, if you're into three hours of just all out, like machine gun battle sequences between made up people and sometimes a beautiful sea creature. And sometimes some psychedelic experiences, then you'll have a great time. I don't think that this movie, like the other, like the other two, has that like transcending

• 42:03Amanda Dobbins?

  genre, like, you know, transcending, I'm going to the movies to have a good time thing. That the first Avatar and the sec, and even Way of Water, it's something you've never really seen before, which you have in this movie. And there is something like experiential where this is more like, oh, look, he did a funny thing and he decided to do this other funny thing. And so it's not transformative in the way the other two are.

• 42:31Sean Fennessey?

  I can't disagree with you. It's only been three years since the Way of Water and there's not a lot that is particularly new here. So you have to really enjoy these movies, I think, to enjoy this movie. Yeah, yeah.

• 42:44Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think that there will be a fourth and fifth? Well, how much, just ballpark, how much money do you think this will make?

• 42:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I guess we know it's going to crack a billion internationally, worldwide, just because of how things work. But the last one made over two?

• 43:01Sean Fennessey?

  2.34 billion.

• 43:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. I guess 1.8.

• 43:10Sean Fennessey?

  I feel like it's gonna be lower than that.

• 43:12Amanda Dobbins?

  You do? Wow, okay.

• 43:13Sean Fennessey?

  Because of all of the things that you're citing. And I don't know if you'll get as many repeat viewings because it is very long. I don't, I don't remember what the Christmas competition was in 2022. I guess we could look that up. There are not, this is the, this is the big fish for sure this weekend. But there are a lot of movies coming out in the next week or so. Marty Supreme, The Housemaid, I just saw Song Song Blue and I've added it to the calendar. I'll be interviewing the director because I really liked it. You know, there's a bunch of stuff coming out over the course of the next week or so. That is, will be chipping into this at least domestically over that time. So I'm curious. I'm gonna say 1.6.

• 43:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 43:51Sean Fennessey?

  And then 1.6, would that be a failure? I don't really know. I'm not really sure how to think about it. I would be surprised if Cameron, who's 71, came back for four and five.

• 44:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. He's already taking on other things. He's been talking a lot about the Ghost of Hiroshima. He co-directed a movie with Billie Eilish, which I've seen a lot of trailers for while getting, uh,

• 44:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 44:12Amanda Dobbins?

  my nails done.

• 44:13Sean Fennessey?

  Nice.

• 44:13Amanda Dobbins?

  And

• 44:14Sean Fennessey?

  Did you watch that?

• 44:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, great.

• 44:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, there, there's footage in the trailer of James Karen and Billie Eilish interacting and I like, sure, sign me up. Yeah, why not? But it, it would seem that he's interested in things outside of the Navi right now.

• 44:32Sean Fennessey?

  I want to talk about whether or not this film is gonna get nominated for Best Picture.

• 44:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 44:36Sean Fennessey?

  I think we should talk about the shortlist first.

• 44:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, sure, because the shortlists, you know, do shed some light.

• 44:42Sean Fennessey?

  They do. And, and Avatar Fire and Ash did get shortlisted, I believe, in four categories. So it's not as though it was not represented, but you know, we're recording this on a Wednesday. So yesterday, the shortlists were announced in 12 categories. This is the first year for the Best Casting Academy Award, which is really exciting. I think it might be worthwhile to spend 20 or 30 minutes in February breaking this down, really, this category.

• 45:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 45:03Sean Fennessey?

  What makes sense about it, but um, just high level. Sinners and Wicked for Good both were shortlisted eight times.

• 45:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 45:11Sean Fennessey?

  This is not necessarily a

• 45:15Sean Fennessey?

  A signpost that these movies are gonna dominate, but it doesn't hurt to be shortlisted in all these categories. Frankenstein got six shortlistings.

• 45:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Also not really surprising.

• 45:24Sean Fennessey?

  The surprising one was Serat.

• 45:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 45:26Sean Fennessey?

  Serat was shortlisted five times. Now, Serat, which I think I saw in August. And have you seen it yet?

• 45:34Amanda Dobbins?

  No, not yet.

• 45:34Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, so you haven't seen it yet. I mean, it sounds like we should.

• 45:37Amanda Dobbins?

  No, we're gonna do it. It's, I mean, it's number one on my list. It just, it was a very quick qualifying run.

• 45:42Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 45:42Amanda Dobbins?

  And so I, I hope they'll start making it more available.

• 45:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, it certainly seems like people in the Academy are watching it because it's shown up in a bunch of places here. A couple of other quick reflections before we get into the specific categories themselves. J. Kelly not in casting or cinematography. It does feel like J. Kelly is DOA right now.

• 46:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Agree.

• 46:04Sean Fennessey?

  And now I'm nervous about Adam Sandler.

• 46:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I, you were very confident about that on the Adam Sandler or J. Kelly pod. And I just don't really think that it's gonna happen.

• 46:16Sean Fennessey?

  So you think it's?

• 46:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Cause that's such a.

• 46:18Sean Fennessey?

  Jacob Elordi and Paul Meskell?

• 46:20Amanda Dobbins?

  So it's for sure Benicio del Toro, Sean Penn, Stellan Skarsgård. I think Meskell's in and.

• 46:29Sean Fennessey?

  And it would probably have to be Elordi.

• 46:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 46:31Sean Fennessey?

  In that spot. Okay, that's annoying. Anyway, I, I really, I thought Jacob Elordi was great, but.

• 46:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Del Rey Lindo, last minute.

• 46:38Sean Fennessey?

  It's possible, certainly possible. I think we're, I think that we'll get into this when we get into Best Picture power.

• 46:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 46:43Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting center's moment right now.

• 46:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 46:45Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting center's moment.

• 46:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 46:48Sean Fennessey?

  Couple of other things. Wake up Deadman and Just Score. So that's not a good sign for Wake up Deadman more broadly. Although it seems like people are really liking that movie, which is cool.

• 46:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 46:57Sean Fennessey?

  It seems to be very.

• 46:57Amanda Dobbins?

  It's a likable movie.

• 46:58Sean Fennessey?

  It is.

• 46:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Once again, Josh O'Connor.

• 47:01Sean Fennessey?

  He's a man.

• 47:03Sean Fennessey?

  I would encourage people to listen to the Ryan Johnson interview if they liked it. He's really, he's incredibly insightful. And if you liked it, I think he's really good at explaining why he made certain choices in the movie. So the, arguably the biggest thing that's happening here. Is that it doesn't seem like Searchlight's gonna have a movie in Best Picture.

• 47:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 47:22Sean Fennessey?

  So The Testament of Ann Lee got nothing. And I don't know if people- Boo.

• 47:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, which is, you know, which is a bummer, but it is like a, it's a, I guess it's a polarizing movie.

• 47:34Sean Fennessey?

  It is a polarizing movie.

• 47:35Amanda Dobbins?

  We all quite liked it. Um, like I said, I saw a tremendous number of Italian people walking out of it in Venice. A friend of ours texted me this week. I was just like, I hated that. And it's just, and, and said, they just aren't my taste.

• 47:48Sean Fennessey?

  I get that. Oh.

• 47:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Which I, which I get.

• 47:50Sean Fennessey?

  You mean Mona and Brady?

• 47:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 47:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I get that, but like, The Rudeless had like eight nominations. I mean, it was so-

• 47:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure. Well, one's about men and the other is about women. So, uh, it's not really surprising, but-

• 48:00Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, you're right about that. It is, it's not the testament of Jim Lee.

• 48:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 48:04Sean Fennessey?

  It's the testament of Ann Lee. Uh, so Ann Lee, God, I hope Amanda Seyfried is nominated. She is extraordinary in that movie.

• 48:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I do too.

• 48:12Sean Fennessey?

  But I, I don't think that movie is really competing for Best Picture. We can talk about it. Rental Family is also not recognized here. Is This Thing On? Not recognized. So, since 2010, every year, except 2016, Searchlight has had a movie in Best Picture. And the only reason it didn't have a movie in 2016 is because they acquired Birth of a Nation.

• 48:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 48:29Sean Fennessey?

  And then Nate Parker, you know, was entrenched in that scandal and then that movie kind of got erased.

• 48:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:33Sean Fennessey?

  And that was a movie that, coming out of Sundance, people were like, well, this is clearly a Best Picture contender. So you were looking at an unbroken run of 16 years of Academy Award. And prior to that, they missed in 2009, but prior to that, they had a bunch going way back. So, I mean, Searchlight is as, as significant an Oscar player over the last 30 years as SPC, as Miramax, as all of those companies. It's a big thing.

• 48:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but I think, you know, you are seeing like a regime change. How many is Neon gonna have this year? What?

• 49:04Sean Fennessey?

  At least three.

• 49:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Three, four?

• 49:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it looks like three, maybe four.

• 49:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. And, and mostly because they just go to festivals and buy up all the international films and are running the table with that.

• 49:13Sean Fennessey?

  And, and, and them shifting into that international flair and all of these movies, you know, even though, um, Rental Family is a film that takes place in Japan and The Testament of Ann Lee has a kind of foreign component, you know, these are American productions by and large. Um- And that stuff is not as powerful, you know? The Wake Up Deadmans are not as powerful at the Academy Awards as they would have been 25 years ago. It's interesting. It's just notable. It doesn't mean that the studio's like DOA or anything. I think that what, I think specifically what Searchlight has done for American movies over the last 25 years is really good, and I hope they get their mojo back with this sort of thing. And we loved Ann Lee. I'm glad that they picked it up.

• 49:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 49:49Sean Fennessey?

  But it's a shame that it's not recognized here. Okay, let's go into a couple of the categories. Casting.

• 49:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:55Sean Fennessey?

  I'll read the names really quickly for the listeners so they know. Frankenstein, Hamlet, Marty Supreme, One Battle After Another, The Secret Agent, Sentimental Value, Sinners, Serat, Weapons, and Wicked for Good.

• 50:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's 10 films shortlisted for five spots.

• 50:08Amanda Dobbins?

  It's cool.

• 50:10Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting mix. Weapons is a shock. I'm really happy about it. I wonder what that tells us about how strong Weapons is right now?

• 50:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, or I wonder what that tells us about how strong Amy Madigan is.

• 50:21Sean Fennessey?

  Agreed.

• 50:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 50:22Sean Fennessey?

  Could be very strong.

• 50:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Which is exciting.

• 50:24Sean Fennessey?

  It is exciting. She is hustling quite a bit. I think Mikey Madison did, like, presented a screening of Weapons recently, which is interesting. Serat being here is even crazier to me.

• 50:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 50:37Sean Fennessey?

  Serat, but no, no, it was just an accident? And no, no other choice?

• 50:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Is-

• 50:44Sean Fennessey?

  But Serat in Best Casting?

• 50:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't, I guess Serat is really on the brain-

• 50:48Sean Fennessey?

  But that's what I'm saying, people like it.

• 50:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. Or it's sticking with them. I mean, you know, it was also a surprise at the Golden Globes. I think you're right.

• 50:55Sean Fennessey?

  It was.

• 50:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Like, that's, it's, the big takeaways from this are Jay Kelly out, Serat in. Maybe not in Best Picture, but like, start paying attention.

• 51:04Sean Fennessey?

  I know you haven't seen it, but when you see it, you're gonna be like, how the fuck is this in?

• 51:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, listen, people contain-

• 51:09Sean Fennessey?

  I liked it. Like, I liked it with some issues, but like, it is not an Academy movie. Like, I'm kinda shocked, but I think it tells us something about how this has all changed. Any other notables there? I feel like it's roughly like, seven to eight-

• 51:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 51:23Sean Fennessey?

  Best Picture contenders in here.

• 51:25Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, The Secret Agent, Train confirmed for sure.

• 51:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's a very good sign for Secret Agent.

• 51:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Um-

• 51:31Sean Fennessey?

  We were on that last month.

• 51:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I think if Marty Supreme were not in casting, it would be like a real siren, like-

• 51:36Sean Fennessey?

  I agree.

• 51:36Amanda Dobbins?

  We're in trouble here, so I'm glad to see it.

• 51:38Sean Fennessey?

  Marty really only missed in sound. You would have liked to have seen it in sound for it to feel like really powerful, but, um, okay, let's talk about international features. So- I'll read the list. I think it's 15 titles.

• 51:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 51:50Sean Fennessey?

  So the titles include from Argentina, Belen, from Brazil, The Secret Agent, from France, It Was Just An Accident, from Germany, Sound of Falling, from India, Homebound, from Iraq, The President's Cake, from Japan, Kokuhou, from Jordan, All That's Left Of You, from Norway, Sentimental Value, from Palestine, Palestine 36, from South Korea, No Other Choice, from Spain, Serat, from Switzerland, Late Shift, from Taiwan, Left-Handed Girl, and from Tunisia, The Voice Of Hendra Shab. So I noted here that I've seen eight of these.

• 52:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, let me count.

• 52:17Sean Fennessey?

  There are a few more that I really would like to see. I'd like to see Kokuhou. I'd like to see The President's Cake. I'm interested in Palestine 36. I'm interested in Late Shift. But I do think that the eight that I've seen are gonna be enough in terms of being... And I think even maybe seven would be enough. And there is a world now with the Serat strength that it's five Neon movies.

• 52:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, which has been like solidifying for the last couple of months. And it was funny, like in the summer, they just bought everything.

• 52:46Sean Fennessey?

  Well, at Cannes.

• 52:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, at Cannes, they bought absolutely everything. And we all made these jokes. And then, nothing was released for a while. And it seemed kinda quiet. And like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe this is a year for... Maybe everything will stay like an international feature, and this will be a more an American year. And it's funny that we now have, we've been like, we don't have an anatomy of a fall, but like, maybe now we have three?

• 53:16Sean Fennessey?

  I think you're right. I think you're right. And it's, I've been thinking back on my like, top 10, top 20 for this year.

• 53:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 53:22Sean Fennessey?

  And why it feels chalky. And I think one of the reasons why it feels chalky is that Kleber Mendoza Filio, like, he never had a movie distributed by Neon before, you know, like Jafar Panahi hasn't had a movie distributed at this, in this way. So like, movies like that, that usually show up on year-end lists, are usually small international features. You know, maybe they get it at Sony Pictures Classics or Janus to release them, and they get recognized, and they get loved, but they don't get so widely seen.

• 53:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 53:50Sean Fennessey?

  These movies are getting really widely... Serat getting widely seen is crazy.

• 53:54Amanda Dobbins?

  And Neon is just absolutely going for it. Like, No Other Choice in particular, they were hosting like a summer intern contest. Did you see, they're doing like really gimmicky

• 54:04Sean Fennessey?

  They invited 500 CEOs to a screening.

• 54:07Amanda Dobbins?

  It's really funny. It's really good. But they are...

• 54:12Amanda Dobbins?

  They have like, taken a page out of the Timothy Chalamet playbook and the 824 playbook and are like, really like, okay, we're leaning into this.

• 54:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 54:20Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and sort of making these movies that we didn't immediately think were pop, pop through their marketing.

• 54:26Sean Fennessey?

  Hundred percent. It's worked really well. They're, obviously, we saw it with Inora last year. They know what they're doing. They're really good at this. And they are, it's a different strategy for them this year than in years past where they have a lot of eggs and a lot of baskets. Whereas like 824 has Marty Suprem.

• 54:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 54:40Sean Fennessey?

  That's their movie. You know, Netflix has a lot of eggs and a lot of baskets. Sometimes it's better to have a bunch of movies. Sometimes it's better to just focus on one. We'll see what happens. This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Amazon Prime. What pairs with a good comedy? The cozy blanket arriving with Prime. What pairs with a nail biting thriller? Snacks arriving with Prime. What pairs with the big game on Prime Video? That new couch arriving with Prime. Whatever feeling you're after, Prime helps bring it to life with great entertainment and fast shipping that delivers what the moment calls for. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

• 55:12Speaker 02

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• 55:41Sean Fennessey?

  Best documentary, not, not a ton to dig into. We'll talk more about this category when both of us have had a chance to catch up on some of these. I've seen the major films, The Perfect Neighbor, Come See Me in the Good Light, Cover Up, Apocalypse in the Tropics. I think My Undesirable Friends, Part One is like, is the best film.

• 56:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 56:02Sean Fennessey?

  On this list. Maybe there with Cover Up and has won a couple of critics prizes already. If, if you can see it, we should talk about it. It is five hours long.

• 56:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Well.

• 56:11Sean Fennessey?

  It is, it is, it is an intense, durational.

• 56:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 56:14Sean Fennessey?

  Portrait of Russian journalists, dissident journalists. But it's a very, it's a very good film. I don't know how many Academy members will get through it.

• 56:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Well, you know, the documentary, Darians, that branch is a...

• 56:28Amanda Dobbins?

  They're punishing.

• 56:29Sean Fennessey?

  They are, but then when everyone has to vote, what happens is the question.

• 56:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 56:34Sean Fennessey?

  Right, so they could nominate the film, but then everyone would have to vote on it. No Predators on this list, no Orwell 2 plus 2 equals 5, the Raul Peck film, no Put Your Soul In Your Hand and Walk. I was surprised to see that missing.

• 56:50Sean Fennessey?

  If it were left to the people at large, I think The Perfect Neighbor is probably in position to win since it's been such a hit, but we shall see. I just want to touch on cinematography and music before we go.

• 57:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 57:01Sean Fennessey?

  So I'll read the shortlisted films. Ballad of a Small Player, Begonia, Die My Love, F1, Frankenstein, Hamlet, Marty Supreme, Nouvelle Vague, One Battle After Another, Sentimental Value, Sinners, Serat, Song Sung Blue? Sound of Falling? Train Dreams, Wicked for Good.

• 57:22Amanda Dobbins?

  You haven't dipped into your F1 theory on this episode? And it's like...

• 57:27Sean Fennessey?

  Some signs.

• 57:28Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not not happening.

• 57:30Sean Fennessey?

  The FX, Sound, Song, Cinematography.

• 57:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I do think this is weird. This is a weird list.

• 57:39Sean Fennessey?

  This whole collection is odd.

• 57:40Amanda Dobbins?

  But yeah, but as you have noted, No Other Choice, It Was Just an Accident, and The Secret Agent, like, three almost guaranteed Best Picture nominees.

• 57:48Sean Fennessey?

  And No Other Choice and The Secret Agent are gorgeously shot.

• 57:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Unbelievable. And then did not make it in, and so you could say to that, okay, well, maybe the cinematographer branch is not really, you know, thinking internationally. But then you have Serat and Sound of Falling that did make it?

• 58:06Sean Fennessey?

  Very odd.

• 58:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 58:08Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, very odd.

• 58:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 58:09Sean Fennessey?

  And Song Sung Blue, which is a good movie that I liked, I just said that. I don't want to rag on it.

• 58:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 58:14Sean Fennessey?

  But No Other Choice not nominated and Song Sung Blue nominated? Very curious.

• 58:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, Wicked for Good was shortlisted, so what are you gonna do?

• 58:21Sean Fennessey?

  Good point, okay. Best Original Song?

• 58:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Only one K-pop demon hunters, what are we doing?

• 58:27Sean Fennessey?

  And two Wicked for Good.

• 58:28Amanda Dobbins?

  What are we doing? What is this category?

• 58:31Sean Fennessey?

  I don't, I don't know.

• 58:32Amanda Dobbins?

  What is this category?

• 58:34Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know, this is bad.

• 58:35Amanda Dobbins?

  These people are out of control.

• 58:37Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 58:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Dua Lipa doesn't have an Oscar, and there's only one K-pop demon hunters. Save yourselves, you were handed this gift on a platter. You could have nominated four songs, it could have been a K-pop convention. This is, it's really stupid. It's stupid.

• 58:54Speaker 03

  I also don't even understand the rules themselves because Testament of Ann Lee is ineligible because they are based off hymns, but Wicked for Good is an original song.

• 59:04Sean Fennessey?

  These are two new songs.

• 59:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Those are the, yeah.

• 59:07Sean Fennessey?

  These songs were written for the movie.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  Okay, okay.

• 59:08Sean Fennessey?

  They stink, but they were written for the movie.

• 59:10Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 59:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, we'll get to a similar quagmire in score when we get there, but you're right that there are a lot of inconsistencies with these kinds of rulings.

• 59:22Sean Fennessey?

  I'll be rooting for I Lied To You from Sinners. And secondarily, I'll be rooting for As Alive As You Need Me To Be by Nine Inch Nails, which I listened to on the way to work today, which is an absolute banger.

• 59:33Amanda Dobbins?

  That's beautiful.

• 59:34Sean Fennessey?

  Thanks.

• 59:36Sean Fennessey?

  I do love Golden. Golden is like my third or fourth favorite song on that album. I've heard that album probably more than any other album this year.

• 59:42Amanda Dobbins?

  But that's the thing, but it's... What an opportunity, you know, to have like real songs that are a part of the film.

• 59:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yep, in the telecast.

• 59:54Amanda Dobbins?

  That are wildly popular.

• 59:57Sean Fennessey?

  Amanda, you're 100% right.

• 59:59Amanda Dobbins?

  And I just, this is, this has been a bad category every year, except for the one year that they gave an Oscar to Lady Gaga and Mark Ronson.

• 1:00:05Sean Fennessey?

  You're right, and you should say it.

• 1:00:06Amanda Dobbins?

  I do, every year, and nothing happens.

• 1:00:09Sean Fennessey?

  Let's dig into best score quickly.

• 1:00:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:00:12Sean Fennessey?

  Here are the nominees. Avatar Fire, or I should say The Shortlisties. Avatar Fire and Ash Begonia, Captain America Brave New World, Diane Warren Relentless, F1, Frankenstein, Hamnet, Hedda, House of Dynamite, Jay Kelly, Marty Supreme, Nuremberg, One Battle After Another, Sinners, Serat, Train Dreams, Tron Ares, Truth and Treason, Wake Up Dead Man and Knives Out Mystery, and Wicked. That's 20 films.

• 1:00:38Amanda Dobbins?

  I would like for you to perform the Captain America Brave New World score for me right now.

• 1:00:42Sean Fennessey?

  I, I don't know who composed it. I'll happily look it up.

• 1:00:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:00:48Sean Fennessey?

  The composer of that score is Laura Cartman. I think Laura Cartman, what did she do? Did she, she's a, I think she's previously an Oscar nominee. I'm gonna look up what she was nominated for. I can't remember what it was. American Fiction, which was a good score.

• 1:01:04Amanda Dobbins?

  That's a good score.

• 1:01:05Sean Fennessey?

  Very different, a jazzy score.

• 1:01:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Sean Fennessey?

  I'm going Nuremberg.

• 1:01:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Have you seen it yet?

• 1:01:10Sean Fennessey?

  I think Christmas, Christmas Day.

• 1:01:14Sean Fennessey?

  I've got a screener at home.

• 1:01:15Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I know, I saw it too. But it is over two hours long, I think.

• 1:01:18Sean Fennessey?

  It's two and a half hours.

• 1:01:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, I clacked that as well.

• 1:01:20Sean Fennessey?

  It's two and a half hours of Russell Crowe sitting, which I will watch.

• 1:01:23Amanda Dobbins?

  I, you just, you really have to do the, um, the choral or the kraal.

• 1:01:29Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Screener needs to be up because you really.

• 1:01:32Sean Fennessey?

  I don't have it yet.

• 1:01:32Amanda Dobbins?

  You gotta do a Nuremberg, the choral doubleheader.

• 1:01:35Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, the seventy-eight-year-old Sean saunters into the Angelica on a Tuesday at 2:00 PM. That's, that's what those movies are. Nothing against them. Um, this is sinners versus one battle, I think. Uh, but to Jack's point, I think Hamnet being here and the idea of previously used music from Max Richter appearing in the film clearly didn't disqualify it. It is eligible to be nominated. You know, interesting, I think, Hedda getting a look here is notable. A movie that is otherwise not really super represented. House of Dynamite, otherwise not really represented here. Um, What, Wake Up Dead Man, we mentioned, otherwise not represented. So, you know, some stuff here, some, some warning signs, some, like, this is always helpful, I think, for both of us to be like, all right, I gotta watch this, this, and this now.

• 1:02:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:02:17Sean Fennessey?

  Um, that leads us to Best Picture power rankings.

• 1:02:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:02:21Sean Fennessey?

  So, the rankings today are brought to you by Scout Motors. And although it's not a film, we do want to give an honorable mention to their all-new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler. Iconic in the seventies, reimagined for tomorrow with plans for advanced four-wheel drive, it'll be a showstopper. Now, let's go through November 24th's power rankings. Number 10 was The Secret Agent. Number nine was Train Dreams. Number eight was Avatar: Fire and Ash. Number seven was It Was Just an Accident. Number six, Sentimental Value. Number five, Frankenstein. Number four, Marty Supreme. Number three, Sinners. Number two, Hamnet. Number one, one battle after another.

• 1:02:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:02:54Sean Fennessey?

  Now, that list was pretty good.

• 1:02:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. We might quibble with the ranking a little bit, but I, we're maybe only gonna have to strike one movie off the list, and I don't even know about that. Or maybe two. We can discuss it.

• 1:03:09Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, let's, where do you, I think the Testament of Ann Lee has been quietly put to bed. I think Is This Thing On has been quietly put to bed.

• 1:03:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, so you're going through the outliers.

• 1:03:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, the outliers. I think A House of Dynamite is done.

• 1:03:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Sean Fennessey?

  I think Rental Family is done.

• 1:03:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:03:23Sean Fennessey?

  I think Springsteen is so done that we can take it off completely. We don't even have to mention those words anymore.

• 1:03:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Though Jeremy Allen White did get a nomination, a Golden Globe nomination, but that's Golden Globes Inc. Uh, holding on to their truths.

• 1:03:37Sean Fennessey?

  The new tier one to me, that is on the outside looking in, and we can decide whether or not any of these films is gonna make the list.

• 1:03:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:03:43Sean Fennessey?

  Is as follows. Wicked for Good, of course. We don't have it in right now, but it is still a contender.

• 1:03:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, they're hanging on.

• 1:03:49Sean Fennessey?

  And there's gonna be a lot of below the line nominations for Wicked for Good.

• 1:03:53Amanda Dobbins?

  And prob, at least two in Best Actress and Supporting Actress.

• 1:03:59Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe. I think there's a, there's a strong feeling that Cynthia Revo could be out.

• 1:04:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:05Sean Fennessey?

  I think Chase Infinity could push her out.

• 1:04:08Amanda Dobbins?

  That would.

• 1:04:08Sean Fennessey?

  We shall see.

• 1:04:11Sean Fennessey?

  I think, I think no other choice is still in tier one.

• 1:04:14Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I do as well.

• 1:04:16Sean Fennessey?

  The Le'Veon nomination at the Globes seems to indicate some strength.

• 1:04:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, but the shortlist, it's, it's present, but not that present.

• 1:04:29Sean Fennessey?

  You'd like it to be stronger.

• 1:04:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Sean Fennessey?

  For sure.

• 1:04:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Cinematography baffling.

• 1:04:35Sean Fennessey?

  I, I don't, I can't even imagine what the point is. F1, I'm putting it in tier one.

• 1:04:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, that's fine.

• 1:04:40Sean Fennessey?

  Welcome to tier one, F1. You, you earned it.

• 1:04:44Amanda Dobbins?

  What's it, what is the tier one in F1, the sport called?

• 1:04:50Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know.

• 1:04:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, Jack? Wow, all right.

• 1:04:56Sean Fennessey?

  Is Song Sung Blue in tier one?

• 1:04:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, you, listen, you're like a little, you texted me out of the theater.

• 1:05:04Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Right? Um, how long was your drive home last night, by the way?

• 1:05:08Sean Fennessey?

  It was one hour and four minutes.

• 1:05:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Uh, not ideal. And you're like.

• 1:05:13Sean Fennessey?

  I saw two films yesterday. I saw the two hour and 40 minute Magellan, and then immediately drove four minutes away and saw Song Sung Blue. You know why? I love film.

• 1:05:22Amanda Dobbins?

  You know what I'm doing tomorrow?

• 1:05:24Sean Fennessey?

  What are you doing?

• 1:05:24Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm doing a double header of Marty Supreme, straight into Is This Thing On? Do I even need to get in my car? No, I don't. I've lined it right up. Thank you so much.

• 1:05:33Sean Fennessey?

  The R-Men OK double feature.

• 1:05:36Amanda Dobbins?

  So, but you texted me right out of the theater and you were like, kind of surprised how much I liked, how much I loved. I think you used loved Song Sung Blue.

• 1:05:44Sean Fennessey?

  It's just so not really in my bag, but it's just like a big, beautiful, steaming Christmas ham, you know?

• 1:05:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50Sean Fennessey?

  Where it's just like, sometimes you just want like that pineapple on there and those cherries and get that glaze going, you know, and just like, this is good for me, it's debatable, but like, I'm loosening the belt tonight for Song Sung Blue.

• 1:06:02Amanda Dobbins?

  So, let's be clear, it's not good for you. And also, would you actually eat a ham with pineapple and cherries?

• 1:06:07Sean Fennessey?

  I've eaten plenty of ham in my days, yeah.

• 1:06:08Amanda Dobbins?

  On it, but like, right now?

• 1:06:10Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:06:10Amanda Dobbins?

  And also, did you ever eat it with the mustard?

• 1:06:14Sean Fennessey?

  Fuck no.

• 1:06:14Amanda Dobbins?

  That's psychotic behavior.

• 1:06:16Sean Fennessey?

  Disgusting. I would never eat that.

• 1:06:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, I, I hear what you're saying. I think that there is, I know.

• 1:06:22Sean Fennessey?

  I'm just, I'm just drizzling idea dust on, on this list, you know?

• 1:06:25Amanda Dobbins?

  That's fine. Tier one's fine. Tier one's fine.

• 1:06:27Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, tier, tier one.

• 1:06:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Maple glaze on the list.

• 1:06:30Sean Fennessey?

  I'll add one more to the top of the list, and I think this is in keeping with, um, wait, I gotta go back to my list.

• 1:06:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, you're making it.

• 1:06:37Sean Fennessey?

  I think this is in keeping with, um, with the, these shortlist nominations, which is Weapons. Weapons had been in tier two.

• 1:06:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:45Sean Fennessey?

  But we see it in Casting.

• 1:06:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:48Sean Fennessey?

  And we know Amy Madigan's gonna be nominated. I'm not saying it's going into Best Picture, I don't think it is.

• 1:06:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, but you're putting it in tier one.

• 1:06:55Sean Fennessey?

  I'm putting it in tier one.

• 1:06:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:06:56Sean Fennessey?

  That means tier two becomes Rental Family is this thing on, The Testament of Ann Lee, House of Dynamite, Jay Kelly, Wake Up Dead Man.

• 1:07:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:07:05Sean Fennessey?

  Is that true?

• 1:07:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:07Sean Fennessey?

  Now, doing our 10.

• 1:07:13Sean Fennessey?

  I'm gonna start from the bottom up. Is it possible Sinners is in first place right now?

• 1:07:17Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:07:19Sean Fennessey?

  Are you 100% sure? It won its first Critics Prize, it broke the One Battle after another streak.

• 1:07:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. I think right now, we're in the phase of, everyone's tired. It's been a long time. We've got a long time to go.

• 1:07:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:32Amanda Dobbins?

  We're looking for narratives, we're looking for some juice, we're looking for some maple glaze. I know.

• 1:07:38Sean Fennessey?

  Three months.

• 1:07:39Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and we're taking One Battle for granted a little. You have been, you yourself, Sean Fantasy, have been a little, uh, overconfident?

• 1:07:50Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, presumptuous.

• 1:07:51Amanda Dobbins?

  And...

• 1:07:53Amanda Dobbins?

  That's, you're right, as a, as a man, sitting at this table, but I think that that's reflective of where we are in the race, and people are just kind of like, eh, maybe it's time to talk about Sinners. And that, listen, it's good content. I still, I think it's two, not one.

• 1:08:09Sean Fennessey?

  Two?

• 1:08:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:11Sean Fennessey?

  Are you, do you, did you think Hamnet would be a bigger hit thus far?

• 1:08:16Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I didn't. Like, you mean a box office hit?

• 1:08:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I do.

• 1:08:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I, I don't. I don't think that people were gonna be rushing out open night. Like, you know, Paul Meskell is the internet's boyfriend, but it's not really, uh, like a Colleen Hoover, go with your girls type of movie.

• 1:08:34Sean Fennessey?

  Bill Simmons loved it.

• 1:08:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow.

• 1:08:37Sean Fennessey?

  Loved it. Texted me immediately after seeing it.

• 1:08:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:08:41Sean Fennessey?

  Wow, wow, wow, exclamation point.

• 1:08:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow. Yeah, listen, this is what I love about Bill. He always surprises. Did he cry?

• 1:08:48Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, he didn't address that when I brought it to him.

• 1:08:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:08:51Sean Fennessey?

  And then I told him what I thought of the movie, which is, well, we said on the pod, which is like, first hour, I really didn't like, but then it really did get me at the end. And then I think he listened to the pod.

• 1:08:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:09:00Sean Fennessey?

  And he was like, you are a heartless fool.

• 1:09:02Amanda Dobbins?

  You are?

• 1:09:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:09:03Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I think, I think he implied that you were as well.

• 1:09:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, I am?

• 1:09:06Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I said, I, I literally cried on that podcast.

• 1:09:09Sean Fennessey?

  You, you did cry?

• 1:09:10Amanda Dobbins?

  So, like, I'm-

• 1:09:10Sean Fennessey?

  That was a moment.

• 1:09:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I, well, listen, it's, that movie is-

• 1:09:14Sean Fennessey?

  Let's aggregate that moment, internet.

• 1:09:17Amanda Dobbins?

  I cried and then you started tearing up. So, hey, I, that's fine if I'm heartless, but, uh-

• 1:09:22Sean Fennessey?

  I, I agree, we're not heartless. We're full of heart.

• 1:09:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:09:24Sean Fennessey?

  Sin, so, is Hamnet in three? It's, you think it's one battle, Sinners and Hamnet, right now? Is there anything above it? Marty coming?

• 1:09:33Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I think that you would probably have to put either It Was Just an Accident or Secret Agent.

• 1:09:40Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:09:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Or, I, like, sentimental value, I, you know, I, where are we with that, as a community?

• 1:09:46Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's right where it belongs.

• 1:09:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, where's Bill with that?

• 1:09:49Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, I don't believe he's seen the film.

• 1:09:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:09:50Sean Fennessey?

  It is in Norwegian, so no guarantee that he's gonna watch the film.

• 1:09:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Bill, if you watch it, please text me too.

• 1:09:54Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Cause you wanna be confirmed in your feelings of mixedness?

• 1:09:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm curious, you know, I value his opinion.

• 1:10:02Sean Fennessey?

  I think One Battle still won, and you're right that I'm getting overconfident about that.

• 1:10:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:10:06Sean Fennessey?

  I do think that Sinners is increasingly, I can see the spoilardom. Because I can see the Actors Awards ensemble win onstage. I can see score and song going early in the telecast to Sinners. I could see cinematography going to Sinners. I could see a couple of things that would make us go, what? And to your point earlier, if somehow Won Me, Masaku, and Del Rey Lindo get into those acting races.

• 1:10:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Sean Fennessey?

  Then it's like, oh, wow, there's a ton of support. Flip side, film didn't do that well overseas. It's a, it's a black American film.

• 1:10:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:10:42Sean Fennessey?

  It has obviously elements of Irish history in it, but it is, it is an American movie. And those movies don't have the strongest track record. But there's something in the air. I don't know what it is. I think eight shortlist IDs is a lot. And.

• 1:10:57Amanda Dobbins?

  I, listen.

• 1:10:58Sean Fennessey?

  I'm just, I'm flagging it for purposes of this conversation.

• 1:11:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Number two is where it should be.

• 1:11:03Sean Fennessey?

  Number two.

• 1:11:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think you're wrong. It still feels to me like the original screenplay winner. And, and then some below the line stuff. And, and that's, you know, traditionally the coolest and best award for our favorite person. So.

• 1:11:21Sean Fennessey?

  Agreed.

• 1:11:21Amanda Dobbins?

  That would, that would fit in, in my logic as well.

• 1:11:24Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, then here's what I'll propose.

• 1:11:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:11:26Sean Fennessey?

  I think Hamid is still three.

• 1:11:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:11:28Sean Fennessey?

  I think it is very powerful. I think the people who love it, love it. So you'll see a lot of ones on those voting ballots.

• 1:11:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:11:34Sean Fennessey?

  I think four, I think it was just an accident, it is an inspired idea.

• 1:11:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:11:38Sean Fennessey?

  And given all the news about Panahi and some of the critical wins, that has power.

• 1:11:43Amanda Dobbins?

  I still, if I were, if we were filling out our predictions today. It would be One Battle, Best Picture, and Panahi and Best Director.

• 1:11:52Sean Fennessey?

  It's definitely possible.

• 1:11:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:53Sean Fennessey?

  Definitely possible. That would.

• 1:11:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Which is not like a novel idea, many people are circling around that.

• 1:11:58Sean Fennessey?

  No, but a lot of people have been pointing out that the last three or four years, the Oscars have been going heavy for one movie. Instead of, you know, spreading the wealth. So we'll, we'll see if One Battle is truly a juggernaut or not. Or if Sinners is stronger than we think, then everything's on the table.

• 1:12:13Sean Fennessey?

  I would then suggest that if we, it was just an accident, it's four, Marty is five, Frankenstein is six, sentimental value is seven.

• 1:12:22Amanda Dobbins?

  You think Frankenstein is above sentimental value?

• 1:12:25Sean Fennessey?

  I do.

• 1:12:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:12:26Sean Fennessey?

  Because I think it will have more total nominations.

• 1:12:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. One, two, three, four, five. That's in the acting screenplay and Best Picture, do you think?

• 1:12:40Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think it's gonna get into screenplay. But I do think it's gonna get into directing, and I don't think Sentimental Value will get into directing. But I do think it will get into screenplay. I think it will get-

• 1:12:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Wait, what don't you think will get into? What's getting into what?

• 1:12:54Sean Fennessey?

  I think Sentimental Value will get into screenplay-

• 1:12:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:12:56Sean Fennessey?

  And Frankenstein won't.

• 1:12:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Agree, agree, we're on the same page.

• 1:13:00Sean Fennessey?

  Frankenstein will get into directing and Sentimental Value won't.

• 1:13:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Agree.

• 1:13:04Sean Fennessey?

  And then-

• 1:13:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I agree with you, even though I do I agree with those choices, no, but I agree with your assessment.

• 1:13:09Sean Fennessey?

  Sentimental Value will get three acting noms, but it will get no below the line nominations. Whereas Frankenstein will get like six below the line nominations.

• 1:13:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Alright.

• 1:13:15Sean Fennessey?

  That's my gut right now.

• 1:13:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:13:17Sean Fennessey?

  Could be wrong, I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Um, so that's the top seven. You got all that, Jack?

• 1:13:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, he does.

• 1:13:25Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, Avatar Fire Nation, I don't think is getting in.

• 1:13:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't either.

• 1:13:29Sean Fennessey?

  So we're gonna have to figure something out.

• 1:13:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Alright.

• 1:13:31Sean Fennessey?

  We've got Train Dreams and The Secret Agent at 10 and 9 from last month. I feel comfortable just moving those to 8 and 9.

• 1:13:37Amanda Dobbins?

  8 and 9, okay. And you still think that Train Dreams is ahead of Secret Agent?

• 1:13:41Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's pretty tight. I think they're both very well liked. Very well liked. Secret Agent, I think, is a little bit of a tougher sit for some people, because of its length.

• 1:13:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I guess so.

• 1:13:52Sean Fennessey?

  And it's all over the placidness. However, Brazil, very popular, very strong in the Academy.

• 1:13:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:56Sean Fennessey?

  Um, not been to the country, I'd like to go one day.

• 1:13:58Amanda Dobbins?

  It was lovely.

• 1:13:59Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, you went?

• 1:13:59Amanda Dobbins?

  When I went, yeah.

• 1:14:01Sean Fennessey?

  Did we talk about this?

• 1:14:02Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I went with my friend Stephanie when I was 25. I got the most sunburn I've ever got in my life.

• 1:14:07Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting, what cities did you go to?

• 1:14:08Amanda Dobbins?

  I just went to Sao Paulo and then to the, to the beach, but I don't remember, uh, the name of the beach, but that, it was beautiful.

• 1:14:15Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, cool.

• 1:14:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I'd like to go back, I'd like to go to Rio.

• 1:14:19Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, so 10. Now, if we're pulling from tier one, the tier one choices are Wicked for Good, No Other Choice, F1, Song Sung Blue, Weapons.

• 1:14:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:14:30Sean Fennessey?

  What's going on? Okay, so here's, we forgot to mention one film.

• 1:14:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Sean Fennessey?

  Serat.

• 1:14:35Amanda Dobbins?

  You think it's going all the way? That, I mean, that'd be awesome.

• 1:14:38Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, we're talking, we're just talking on a pod.

• 1:14:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's, do you want to put it in?

• 1:14:41Sean Fennessey?

  You haven't even seen the film.

• 1:14:42Amanda Dobbins?

  You want to put it into your mind?

• 1:14:43Sean Fennessey?

  Do you know what's going on in this movie? Do you, are you familiar with what happens?

• 1:14:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Enough that I don't want to know the rest. Like, stop talking to me. And I couldn't go to the most recent screening. I can't remember whether I had to go see.

• 1:14:56Sean Fennessey?

  Like, do you know the premise of the movie?

• 1:14:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it's a rave in the desert. Yeah.

• 1:15:00Sean Fennessey?

  That's how it opens, yeah.

• 1:15:02Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I don't know the rest. I don't, I don't want to know anything.

• 1:15:05Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not going to tell you anything.

• 1:15:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:15:06Sean Fennessey?

  I'm just asking questions.

• 1:15:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Great. And I'm giving you answers. So now we have to talk about other things.

• 1:15:12Sean Fennessey?

  So you can't say for sure.

• 1:15:15Amanda Dobbins?

  If it's whether it's an Academy movie or not.

• 1:15:17Sean Fennessey?

  No other choice, or Weapons, or F1. I mean, to me, it's like the bold choice right now at this stage of things is F1, Serat.

• 1:15:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:15:25Sean Fennessey?

  Or no other choice. That's what I, those are, I think, the real contenders. Now, you know what? It might just be Wicked for Good.

• 1:15:32Amanda Dobbins?

  It might.

• 1:15:33Sean Fennessey?

  That would be boring. But that also is going to have a bunch of below the line.

• 1:15:37Amanda Dobbins?

  What do you think will win the Cinematic and Box Office Achievement Award at the Golden Globes? And get that onstage moment? In that category are Avatar: Fire and Ash, Wicked for Good, and K-Pop Demon Hunters.

• 1:15:51Amanda Dobbins?

  And then, you know.

• 1:15:52Sean Fennessey?

  I think this is dependent on the first two weeks of Avatar's box office.

• 1:15:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, Cinematic and Box Office Achievement, uh, 2025, I can read the rest.

• 1:16:02Sean Fennessey?

  Please read the nominees.

• 1:16:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Well.

• 1:16:07Amanda Dobbins?

  F1 is also in there. Mission: Impossible, The Final Reckoning, Sinners, Weapons, Wicked for Good, Zootopia 2.

• 1:16:15Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, Zootopia 2.

• 1:16:17Amanda Dobbins?

  You think?

• 1:16:18Sean Fennessey?

  It's gonna make like 1.6 billion dollars.

• 1:16:20Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not, they're not just looking at the box office sheet.

• 1:16:23Sean Fennessey?

  It's a cinematic achievement.

• 1:16:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Sean Fennessey?

  Have you seen the film?

• 1:16:26Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it's take-knocks.

• 1:16:28Sean Fennessey?

  It's an extraordinary exploration of the way that we allow societies to divide us.

• 1:16:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:16:35Amanda Dobbins?

  I just, I'm saying, there's also, is this, let's see, Sinners is nominated in drama, and One Battle is in comedy.

• 1:16:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:47Amanda Dobbins?

  So, and Hamlet was not that strong at the Globes. So you think Sinners takes drama, One Battle takes comedy?

• 1:16:56Sean Fennessey?

  I do.

• 1:16:57Amanda Dobbins?

  And then, in this category, you think it'll be Zootopia over K-Pop Demon Hunters, Avatar, and Wicked for Good?

• 1:17:06Sean Fennessey?

  I do.

• 1:17:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:17:08Sean Fennessey?

  Unless Zootopia is gonna win an animated feature, which I don't think it is. I think K-Pop Demon Hunters will win.

• 1:17:12Amanda Dobbins?

  So you think that's how they're gonna do the split?

• 1:17:15Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe they give it to Wicked for Good?

• 1:17:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:17:18Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe, just because, but the truth is, is that that movie has not succeeded nearly as much as the first film at the box office.

• 1:17:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. I guess the follow-up question is, do you think that that stage moment, for whichever of these films, matters in terms of Best Picture nomination?

• 1:17:33Sean Fennessey?

  I do. Okay.

• 1:17:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know, I think people are impressionable, and seeing people onstage confers an idea of, I mean, we've always said this about...

• 1:17:44Sean Fennessey?

  Do you get a Golden Globe for Cinematic and Box Office Achievement? What, do they give you like a Crunch Bar? Like, what's that worth? I love Crunch Bars.

• 1:17:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I do too. Remember when they did like Bunch of Crunch?

• 1:17:54Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, that's so good.

• 1:17:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that was good.

• 1:17:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, we've always said that the Ensemble Award at the SAG Awards, rebranded as the Actor Awards, was important in terms of seeing everybody together.

• 1:18:06Sean Fennessey?

  But that's because it's the last big thing that everyone sees before Oscar voting. That's why.

• 1:18:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, this is the last, is this, are the Globes after the nominations ballots are in? When, when is, what's the voting timeline? Oscar's voting timeline? Timeline 2026. This is very exciting.

• 1:18:25Sean Fennessey?

  It acts like Braum in New Jersey. I'm trying to just relax.

• 1:18:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Nomination's voting begins on January 12th, the morning after. So there.

• 1:18:33Sean Fennessey?

  Great.

• 1:18:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. I'm just, I'm just asking questions.

• 1:18:36Sean Fennessey?

  Cinematic and Box Office Achievement Award.

• 1:18:38Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm just saying, whether...

• 1:18:38Sean Fennessey?

  No, I just wanna make sure I'm getting this right. You said it's the most significant bellwether for the Best Picture race in 2026, is what you said, right?

• 1:18:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Just saying, lizard brains. People have seen the people onstage, and then they gotta open their portals, and, you know, testify that they've watched every single movie.

• 1:18:56Sean Fennessey?

  What's going at 10? Make a choice.

• 1:19:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, let's see. Let's be bold. Let's do Serat.

• 1:19:07Sean Fennessey?

  I love it. That's exactly the right choice.

• 1:19:09Amanda Dobbins?

  That's what we should do.

• 1:19:10Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. Okay, let's read our list now. At number 10, Serat.

• 1:19:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:16Sean Fennessey?

  Oliver Lash's Spanish film about of, well, I won't say because I don't want to spoil it for you. Number nine, The Secret Agent. Number eight, Train Dreams. Number seven, Sentimental Value. Number six, Frankenstein. Number five, Marty Supreme. Number four, It Was Just an Accident. Number three, Hamlet. Number two, Sinners. And number one, One Battle After Another. Today's Best Picture Power Rankings was brought to you by Scout Motors. Bold and cinematic. Just like these films, the all-new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler are planning to deliver that and more. Join the waitlist at scoutmotors.com. Concept vehicles not available for sale. Features and performance specifications are preliminary and subject to change. Joining the waitlist does not guarantee purchase. Visit scoutmotors.com for details.

• 1:19:58Sean Fennessey?

  Well, that does it.

• 1:19:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:20:00Sean Fennessey?

  So.

• 1:20:00Speaker 03

  Can I ask a question very quickly?

• 1:20:02Sean Fennessey?

  Of course.

• 1:20:03Speaker 03

  Avatar Fire and Ash dropping out. More specifically, your personal reactions to the film? Or something larger collectively you think is being felt by the industry?

• 1:20:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Larger, I think.

• 1:20:17Sean Fennessey?

  I think so.

• 1:20:18Amanda Dobbins?

  It's just, the juice isn't there. In the same way, I mean, you know, we also estimated that the box office would be much lower than Avatar, The Way of Water. And the critical reactions are, it's not just us. Many, many people are saying that it's not as exciting as the first two. And it's the same logic we're using for Wicked for Good.

• 1:20:41Sean Fennessey?

  That's exactly right. Way of Water was a 67 on Metacritic. Avatar Fire and Ash is a 61 and will probably go down a bit over the next couple of days. So I just think there is like the, everything that Amanda said, that lack of the thrill of the new, some of the repetition of the story beats, those things are working against it. But it's a good question and we could be wrong. Because you know, Ben against Big Jim, dicey.

• 1:21:04Amanda Dobbins?

  So far, it has not served us.

• 1:21:06Sean Fennessey?

  So, did we have Way of Water in, in, in last time in 22?

• 1:21:12Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't remember.

• 1:21:13Sean Fennessey?

  I don't remember either. Nevertheless, the next episode of this pod is going to be very cool because we are talking about Ella Mackay and Is This Thing On?, two movies that I have no idea if the audience of this show are going to see. Ella Mackay just opened to one of the single lowest wide release weekend box office numbers in the history of film.

• 1:21:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:37Sean Fennessey?

  However, the film is also actively being memed on the internet. I've also seen it and I have many strong thoughts.

• 1:21:46Amanda Dobbins?

  As do I.

• 1:21:47Sean Fennessey?

  Is This Thing On?, you haven't seen yet? I also have strong thoughts on this film.

• 1:21:51Amanda Dobbins?

  So it's gonna be coming on hot. It's also, we're at that time of year where it's crunch time. It's crunch time for the movies. It's crunch time for you and me. And this has the prime Friday afternoon before Christmas, second recording of the day spot. So like it will have to be seen and heard to be believed. Is these films and also the podcast.

• 1:22:13Sean Fennessey?

  We're going to leaven that discussion with 10 overlooked and underseen movies from the year. You'll pick a few, I'll pick a few. We'll put our list together. We'll say, hey, maybe over the holidays, watch these movies. Sound good?

• 1:22:25Amanda Dobbins?

  That sounds great.

• 1:22:26Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Thanks to CT for filling in in studio. We'll see you next time.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

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