A guide to being brave in relationships

From sustaining a marriage to making new friends, forming connections requires courage. This hour, TED speakers guide us through being brave during the most difficult moments in relationships. Guests include writer and podcaster Kelly Corrigan, journalist Allison Gilbert and clinical psychologists Julie and John Gottman. Original broadcast date: November 1, 2024 TED Radio Hour+ subscribers now get access to bonus episodes, with more ideas from TED speakers and a behind the scenes look with our producers. A Plus subscription also lets you listen to regular episodes (like this one!) without sponsors. Sign-up at: plus.npr.org/ted http://plus.npr.org/ted See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Manoush Zomorodi?

  This episode's sponsor is HubSpot, which offers the following message: What if instead of updating your CRM, your CRM updated you? HubSpot's self-updating CRM keeps your customer context current so you can win more deals. Learn more at hubspot.com. This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks. Our job now is to dream big. Delivered at TED conferences. To bring about the future we want to see. Around the world. To understand who we are. From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  You just don't know what you're gonna find.

• 0:39Manoush Zomorodi?

  Challenge you.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  We truly have to ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy?

• 0:42Manoush Zomorodi?

  And even change you. I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes. Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading. From TED and NPR, I'm Manoush Zomorodi. Writer Kelly Corrigan's daughters are grown now. But back when they were tweens, she noticed something. If they came home from school really mad or upset, and she tried to help them, they would just turn off.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Like, their emotion would change, and they would go from something raw to something kind of tired and dismissive. And then they would wander away. And I would think, what just happened? Like, they told me they were upset about X. We brainstormed solutions to X, and they seemed so unsatisfied with my parental interference.

• 1:34Manoush Zomorodi?

  This really bothered Kelly, until one day, when she was on a road trip with her old college roommate, Tracy.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  We were going back to some reunion, and she was in graduate school to become a therapist.

• 1:48Manoush Zomorodi?

  As they drove, Kelly's daughter, Georgia, called.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  And she was very upset about something. And Tracy was sitting next to me, and I put the phone on speaker because I really wanted Tracy to hear the drama in Georgia's voice, and also maybe to, like, Cyrano de Bergerac me. Like, to just tell me what to say.

• 2:11Manoush Zomorodi?

  Georgia was crying. She hated 6th grade. All the girls in class were turning on her for no reason.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  So Georgia said her things, and then Tracy said, "Tell me more." Say, "Tell me more." And then I'd say, "Oh, tell me more." And then Georgia would tell me more. And then Tracy would say, "That sounds really hard." And then I'd say, "Oh, that sounds so hard." She'd say, "It is." And Georgia would go on, go on, go on. And then Tracy would say, "What do you want to do about it?" And I'd say, "So what do you want to do about it?" And it was like acting. I was completely trusting Tracy's advice. And it was uncanny to me how effective it was. And what it taught me is that I think it's kind of humiliating when you bring a problem to someone and they solve it like lickety-split.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Because basically, the underlying message of that is, "What are you so upset about? Like, it's not that hard to figure this out." And that's a terrible feeling. Versus the joy of like, untying the knots yourself. So I always picture someone picking through like, a giant jewelry box full of necklaces and earrings and bracelets and brooches. And everything's all tangled up. And there is a tremendous satisfaction in separating all those items once and for all. And so either you're going to let the person have that satisfaction, or you're going to steal it. And once I heard myself phrase it that way,

• 3:46Speaker 02

  that it's stealing satisfaction, that helped me stay on the right side of things. Like, "Don't you dare solve this for them. Don't grab that. That's greedy." Like, let her solve it. That's really the call here. And that's brave, because you are putting aside your own methods and your own sort of delivery mechanisms that are most comfortable for you. You have to decide that their needs are paramount, that you are not trying to serve both needs at the same time, and you're definitely not trying to serve your own needs over theirs.

• 4:28Manoush Zomorodi?

  We want to fix problems, win the argument, make friends with the tap of a screen. But what does it mean to truly be close to someone? And how can we have the courage to put ourselves and our fears aside? Today on the show, ideas about being brave in relationships. From dealing with family baggage to a scientifically proven way to stay married, and from one of the most famous relationship therapists of all, wisdom on how to make friends in what can feel like a lonely world. Kelly Corrigan believes that to be the most helpful to the most important people in your life, you just need to say a few phrases.

• 5:13Manoush Zomorodi?

  Tell me more. Go on. What else?

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Those are the seven words. And you can get pretty far in life just with those seven words.

• 5:24Manoush Zomorodi?

  She's spent years talking about families, her own and many others, on her PBS show, her podcast, and in her four bestselling books. And Kelly thinks that when it comes to a crisis, that is when we most need that quiet, soft kind of bravery.

• 5:40Speaker 03

  Inside every crisis you think you might be ready for are 100 dirty surprises that are not in the playbook.

• 5:48Manoush Zomorodi?

  Here she is on the TED stage.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  I had stage three cancer in my 30s. And I can tell you that following the chemo schedule didn't take nearly as much courage as admitting to my husband that sex felt less sexy after my boobs, which were once a real strong suit for me,

• 6:13Speaker 03

  were made weird and uneven by a surgeon's knife. This bravery I'm talking about might even be better understood if you look at the smaller moments of injury in family life, when there's not really an answer. Or it might be your fault. Or it might remind you of something you'd rather forget. Or because people are so suggestible, and the wrong tone, or expression, or phrasing might somehow make things worse. Say your kid was dropped from a group text. They were in it, they mattered, they belonged, and then, poof. Or your husband blew the big deal at work. Or your mom won't wear the diapers that would really help her get through mahjong on Wednesdays.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  And how should we calibrate the exquisite bravery to respond productively? When someone in our family looks at us and says, "Do I know you? I weigh myself before and after every meal. I hear voices. I steal. I'm using again. I bought a gun. I stopped taking the medication. I can't stop making online bets. Sometimes I wonder if more life is really worth all this effort. Bravery is the great guts to move closer to the wound as composed as a war nurse holding eye contact and saying these seven words. Tell me more. What else?

• 7:42Speaker 03

  Go on. That's how the brave shine. That's all they do. They say, "Tell me more. What else? Go on." Even if they're scared of what might happen next, even if they have no training or experience to prepare them for this moment, even if it's late and they have an early flight.

• 8:03Manoush Zomorodi?

  The theme through your books, through your talk, is about how important it is to be present, to listen in our family relationships, however you want to define family. But it is so hard to do when you are tired, when you're trying to get dinner on the table, when you feel like, "Oh, my God, my kid is complaining again." Like, do you know how much it costs to send you to that camp? What advice do you have for being present in a, I guess, a doable way?

• 8:41Speaker 02

  I do think that it speaks to the inconvenience of vulnerability. Like, anyone who has children knows that they often come in right as you're turning off your light to go to sleep. And they want to tell you something, or you're pulling up to the airport, or there's some imminent drop-off coming. And I think that bravery requires a setting aside of self and a setting aside of ego such that your whole being, everything you've got cognitively and emotionally, is available to the other person to lean on.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  If a person is in front of you telling you, "I want to say all these horrible things. I want to tell you how awful I feel." Like, can you even hear it? Can you absorb that? And are you signaling that you can? Because another thing I've thought about a lot over the years is that the job is, if you really love someone, the job is to make sure they know it, which requires a little customization.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  You know, not every kid wants to be hugged repeatedly or sent cards in the mail. Like, the whole love languages thing is so valuable here, which is, what would it look like? If I were to custom design a feeling for you, what would the shape of it be? What would the sound of it be? Don't put too much pressure on yourself to say the right thing. I'm so thrilled by the idea of that kind of emotional hospitality, where you're like, "Tell me something. I'm here, I'm listening." So few people love to listen. Most people, it seems, love to talk.

• 10:37Speaker 03

  Here's two things the brave don't do.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  They don't take over and become the hero. In families, bravery is mostly just sitting there. Personally, I thought love meant action. I had no idea it could be so still. When things get hairy for one of my people, everything in me wants to grab a clipboard, make a to-do list, and start calendaring appointments. And all that can accidentally put us center stage. No longer the coach or the minister, but rather one of the afflicted. But these gritty endurance types I've been admiring have no self and no needs and no agenda, or at least they know how to override all that for the main character, who is not us.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  The second thing the brave don't do? Leave. Or hide inside work or hobbies or some other socially acceptable busyness. In my worst moments, when sitting on my hands is just unbearable, I have dreamed of going to get an MFA in Paris.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  Because if I can't help, why do I have to watch?

• 11:53Speaker 03

  It would be nice to leave and start again. Hardly anyone who's been in a long marriage hasn't at least wondered how it is that the object of their desire has become so burpy and farty.

• 12:08Speaker 03

  Sometimes I see myself naked, stretch marks from pregnancies, scars from cancer surgeries, other things that I don't feel you need to be visualizing right about now.

• 12:22Speaker 03

  And I think, it's a miracle that man stays with me. But, you know, he's not untouched by time either.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  And that's just the physical. I mean, who here hasn't wanted to be with someone who hasn't seen us eating on the toilet or bitching at the Comcast guy?

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Leaving behind our own humiliating history, maybe with the nice person we met at art school in Paris.

• 12:51Speaker 03

  It's an option. People take it. The brave hang around. They are available and ready to bear witness.

• 13:01Manoush Zomorodi?

  In a moment, Kelly Corrigan explains how she applied this same philosophy to the final days of her father's life. On the show today, bravery in relationships. I'm Manoush Zamirodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. Stay with us.

• 13:30Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 13:34Speaker 05

  This message comes from Prolon. With their five-day fasting-mimicking diet, a clinically-developed nutrition program with the goal of promoting fat loss while protecting lean body mass. Learn more at prolonlife.com/NPR.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  This message comes from TED Talks Daily, the podcast that brings you a new idea every day. Learn what's transforming humanity. From balancing AI in your critical thinking to surpassing discoveries about the adolescent brain. Find TED Talks Daily wherever you listen.

• 14:04Manoush Zomorodi?

  This episode's sponsor is HubSpot, which offers the following message. What if instead of updating your CRM, your CRM updated you? No catching up on manual edits, no more guesswork. HubSpot's self-updating CRM keeps your customer context current and helps you understand what to do next. So, marketing builds more demand, sales wins more deals, and customers keep coming back. Learn more at hubspot.com. It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. On the show today, what it takes to be brave in relationships. We were just hearing from writer Kelly Corrigan

• 14:49Manoush Zomorodi?

  on why sometimes the bravest thing you can do for the people you love is nothing at all. You ended up applying this same philosophy in one of the last conversations you had with your father. Can you tell us that story, too?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, my dad was just days away from dying. And he was completely willing to have me sit in bed with him, to hold hands with him for hours. Like, he was telling me in the way that he was responding to my outreach that, like, this is it. And we should, sorry, we should gobble up this time that we have together. And he felt more or less at peace. He was 84 years old. He'd had a spectacular time while he was here. But there was this day where he felt kind of agitated. And you could only see it if you were very quiet and very tuned in,

• 15:50Speaker 02

  which I consider to be an act of bravery, to not rush around and be moving things around on his nightstand and telling him to go to sleep and bossing people around, but rather just sliding in next to them and mirroring their mood. And so, I was looking at his forehead, and it was all wrinkled up and tight. And he said, "Oh, lovey."

• 16:16Speaker 02

  I should have gone to see your Uncle Tommy more.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  So Uncle Tommy is my mother's brother. He died at 46 of a brain tumor. My dad loved this guy. And it had been a long time. It had been maybe 40 years since Tommy died. But right then and there, he had this discomfort with his failure to give more to Uncle Tommy. And instead of saying, oh, come on, you're an amazing brother-in-law to him. I said, tell me more. And he said, I should have named a kid after my lacrosse coach.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  And it was like, what? Why? Tell me more. And he said he was so important to me. I went to college on a scholarship and I almost blew it. I was partying too much. I didn't take it seriously. I was late to practice. And the guy took me by the shoulders and said, you got one more week on this team or I'm sending you home. And he shaped me right up. And it was like, what else? Like, is there more? And of course, there was. And so we spent the day reviewing these little regrets that he had that were so, to my mind, so innocent. I mean, it was almost like the mood of him was that he was going to tell me he had cheated on my mother. Or that he had an illegitimate child or that he had embezzled.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  But the fact of it was very small to me, to my eye. But of course, that goes to this larger point, which is it didn't really matter what it looks like to my eye. Like, whatever's weighing on you is weighing on you. And it was like, I'm going to hear you. I'm going to absorb this thing with you. I'm going to mirror your seriousness about it. And maybe that can let you rest. And it did. And he leaned back on his pillow and said, I'm good, Levy. That's good for today.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  What a gift you could give him by doing that.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  Well, yes, I suppose, but also such a gift to me to get to give it. Like, it's so hard. It seems almost impossible, really, to love someone effectively and productively and sufficiently in that moment. And he was offering me away. And I took it. And I always have it. The final act, then, of the truly brave is leaning back and letting them go. The reward for all this bravery is a full human experience, complete with all the emotions

• 18:54Speaker 03

  at maximum dosage, where we have been put to great use and found an other-centric love that is complete in its expression and its transmission. The reward is to end up soft and humble, empty and in awe, knowing that of all the magnificence we have beheld from cradle to grave, the most eye-popping was interpersonal.

• 19:24Speaker 03

  So here's to anyone who notices and reads between the lines, who asks the right questions, but not too many, who takes notes at the doctor's office and wipes butts, young and old, who listens, holds, and stays. We, who, untrained and always a little off-guard, still dare to do love, to be love. That's brave. Thank you.

• 19:59Manoush Zomorodi?

  That was Kelly Corrigan. Her latest book is called Tell Me More. You can see her full talk at ted.com. So that's being brave, showing up for your family. But what about your spouse or partner? How do we show courage one-on-one, especially when we're in disagreement?

• 20:20Speaker 06

  Yeah. Fighting is very normal. It's very natural, just by virtue of the fact that each of us has a different brain from the other person. We've been raised differently.

• 20:34Speaker 07

  We actually need conflict because we're not attracted to people who are just like us. And we have to keep understanding our partner as we change and grow.

• 20:46Manoush Zomorodi?

  John and Julie Gottman have been married for over 35 years, and they are very well-known for being pioneers in the field of couples psychology, specifically researching why some couples stay together and others don't. It all goes back to 1986, when John and a colleague created a laboratory to study couples at the University of Washington. Julie joined them soon after. They called it "The Love Lab."

• 21:17Speaker 07

  We wanted to see whether we could predict the future of relationships.

• 21:22Manoush Zomorodi?

  Here's what they would do.

• 21:24Speaker 06

  Couples would come into the lab, sit down, typically facing one another, and we would ask them to think about a problem that they hadn't solved yet, that they wanted to talk about.

• 21:36Manoush Zomorodi?

  The Gottmans interviewed couples over the course of weeks, months, even years. But there was something unique about their method. The conversations were recorded, and each person was hooked up to monitors to measure heart rate, blood velocity.

• 21:52Speaker 07

  Skin conduct and sweating from the palms and the hands, respiration, and a variety of other signals. And they were synchronized to the video time code.

• 22:02Speaker 06

  Analyzing what their facial expressions, their body movements, their words, and their tone of voice, all conveyed.

• 22:10Manoush Zomorodi?

  After collecting reams of data, the Gottmans started to see patterns. For example, if someone got upset and stopped responding in the conversation.

• 22:21Speaker 06

  Their heart rates were typically over 100 beats a minute. They might be breathing very shallowly. They are basically having great difficulty hearing the other person, interpreting what that other person is saying, and creatively problem solving.

• 22:39Manoush Zomorodi?

  Over the years, they would follow up with couples and track whether they stayed together.

• 22:44Speaker 07

  And we found, surprisingly, that we could predict with over 90% accuracy the future of a relationship.

• 22:54Manoush Zomorodi?

  This work continues today, but with a boost from artificial intelligence.

• 23:00Speaker 06

  Now, most of that is automated, which is somewhat miraculous. We are getting hundredth of a second by hundredth of a second what is happening to a couple.

• 23:15Manoush Zomorodi?

  They've now studied thousands of pairs in conversation and codified their findings into various laws or rules for relationships. The most famous one is called "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse." Basically, four reactions that, if they show up during a fight, may mean a couple's demise. Here are Julie and John Gottman on the TED stage.

• 23:40Speaker 06

  The first one was criticism, blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. For example, "Oh, my God. This place is such a mess. Why are you such a slob?"

• 23:56Speaker 07

  The second horseman is contempt. Contempt is like criticism, but it has a dash of superiority. You include scorn, disgust, sarcasm, and nasty insults.

• 24:10Speaker 06

  The third horseman is defensiveness. That's the most common one. And that's when we act like an innocent victim. "I did too pay the bills."

• 24:22Speaker 07

  The fourth horseman is stonewalling, when we shut down completely and we don't even give the speaker any signs that we're listening.

• 24:32Speaker 06

  And what we discovered from the physiological research is that people who stonewalled tended to be what we call flooded, which actually means in fight or flight.

• 24:46Speaker 07

  So, you know, when you're flooded, you really feel like you're in danger of dying. You feel so threatened by your partner that you start to really secrete these stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline. And it creates a kind of tunnel vision where they can't really listen, they can't really process information very well. And they wind up repeating themselves, thinking if they repeat themselves louder and louder, they'll be more persuasive.

• 25:16Speaker 06

  Soon as you recognize there's flooding in the room, you say, I think we need to take a break. And you say when you will come back to continue the conversation so that the other person doesn't feel rejected. On the break, you distract yourself by reading, by listening to music, maybe watching TV. So your body has a chance to calm down. And then you come back at the designated time you agreed to. And typically, people look like they've had a brain transplant when they sit down and talk again.

• 26:01Manoush Zomorodi?

  Okay, your latest book is called Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection. And in it, you share examples from couples that you have studied. And I want to ask you about one argument in particular. This is a young couple discussing an upcoming visit from the in-laws. We have actually created a reenactment of their conversation, and we can play this case study now.

• 26:30Speaker 08

  Oh, by the way, I told my parents they could stay in our room this weekend when they visit. We'll sleep on the couch.

• 26:35Speaker 09

  You already told them?

• 26:36Speaker 08

  Well, yeah. They're my parents.

• 26:38Speaker 09

  You know I don't sleep well on the couch.

• 26:40Speaker 08

  Oh, come on. It's just for the weekend. What's the big deal?

• 26:43Speaker 09

  I just, I want to be at my best with your parents, and I don't want to be grumpy because I didn't get to-

• 26:49Speaker 08

  Like you're ever at your best with my parents, anyway.

• 26:52Speaker 09

  Wow, okay.

• 26:53Speaker 08

  Why are you making that face? You know it's true.

• 26:54Speaker 09

  Hey, I'm trying to make an effort with your parents, and-

• 26:57Speaker 08

  Oh, yeah? Why has it taken three years for you to do that?

• 27:00Speaker 09

  Three years? You don't think that I've made an effort for three years?

• 27:04Manoush Zomorodi?

  Okay, so, in-laws. It's a, I don't need to be a scientist to know that it's a touchy subject for many couples.

• 27:13Speaker 09

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:14Manoush Zomorodi?

  Tell me, what did you each hear in that conversation?

• 27:19Speaker 06

  Well, I heard a lot of criticism and a lot of contempt from the woman. First of all, he was caught off-guard by her announcement. He sort of expressed that, but really didn't talk about his feelings. She failed to listen to his feelings about it. What's the big deal? She's minimizing his feelings, invalidating his feelings. He's really hurt by that. He goes defensive. And there's no listening going on whatsoever.

• 27:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, he was ready to withdraw. We also know that his heart rate goes up to 95 beats a minute very quickly.

• 28:03Manoush Zomorodi?

  Right, this was a real couple. We're playing a reenactment, but you actually measured them in your lab.

• 28:09Speaker 07

  That's right. Just by using the video, we could measure the heart rate of both people. And turns out that trust really falls dramatically in this interaction. Trust means each person is really not just interested in their own benefits, but also really working to ensure that their partner's benefits are maximized. Is your partner there for you? Do they have your back? And we can compute that moment by moment. So, they very quickly become strangers and enemies.

• 28:43Manoush Zomorodi?

  So how can they fix this?

• 28:45Speaker 06

  So what she could have said instead is what we call a softened startup. Let's say the fellow's name is Dan. So, Dan, I'm feeling a little anxious about my parents coming for this weekend. I really want them to be comfortable. So how would you feel about our giving our bedroom to them while we sleep on the couch in the living room just for the weekend? That would be an opening question that gives Dan some freedom of choice.

• 29:24Speaker 07

  Yeah. But you know, he could really improve the interaction as well. You know, if she says something like, "You really haven't tried for three years," you know, he can say, "Gee, that's a really strong reaction to how I've treated your parents. I want to hear more about that. And give me a chance to really understand what your feelings are." So both people can play a role in getting to mutual understanding. And mutual understanding is really the goal of conflict.

• 29:59Manoush Zomorodi?

  I've been married for nearly 20 years now, and the thing I hear from people is almost in a resigned way, like, "Oh, we had a fight. It's the same fight we always have." You call these perpetual fights.

• 30:12Speaker 07

  Right.

• 30:13Manoush Zomorodi?

  Are we all doomed in a relationship to have the fight that we've been having since we first got together over and over and over again?

• 30:21Speaker 06

  Yes. However, this leads to a different intervention. It's called the Dream Within Conflict exercise. We have a series of six questions that really draw out the subterranean levels of how somebody feels about a particular point of view.

• 30:46Speaker 07

  You know, people are poised to fight one another because underneath their position, there are a lot of very important beliefs and hidden dreams. 69% of all relationship conflict problems are perpetual, which means that they never go away. And so we learn that conflict really mostly needs to be managed rather than solved.

• 31:14Speaker 06

  Fighting to understand means taking a conversation about an issue and going much deeper to understand what's beneath your partner's position on the issue. That builds the connection. There was a woman who we will call Ginny, who was adamantly opposed to getting a dog. But her partner, Allison, was all for it. So they decided to try the dreams within conflict conversation. When Allison asked Ginny, "So what is your ideal dream here regarding this issue?"

• 31:55Speaker 07

  You know, if we don't have a dog, we're not tied down, we're not burdened. We're free to travel the world together. That's what I really want. Now, listen to what Allison said.

• 32:07Speaker 06

  You know, I see getting a dog as a practice run for having kids and having a family. That's what I want.

• 32:16Speaker 07

  Beneath the surface, it was about leading a life of adventure and travel versus staying home and raising a family. You generate such a level of understanding that then they can compromise. Let's find the solution that honors your dreams and my dream.

• 32:34Manoush Zomorodi?

  But what if there is no solution? When we come back, Julie and John Gottman on deal breakers, the issues that no amount of understanding can fix and that can spell the end for many couples. Today on the show, bravery in relationships. You're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and we'll be right back.

• 33:08Speaker 05

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from ProLon with their five-day fasting-mimicking diet, a clinically-developed nutrition program with the goal of promoting fat loss while protecting lean body mass. Learn more at prolonlife.com/NPR.

• 33:26Speaker 04

  This message comes from TED Talks Daily, the podcast that brings you a new idea every day. Learn what's transforming humanity, from balancing AI in your critical thinking to surpassing discoveries about the adolescent brain. Find TED Talks Daily wherever you listen.

• 33:42Manoush Zomorodi?

  This episode's sponsor is HubSpot, which offers the following message. What if instead of updating your CRM, your CRM updated you? No catching up on manual edits, no more guesswork. HubSpot's self-updating CRM keeps your customer context current and helps you understand what to do next. So, marketing builds more demand, sales wins more deals, and customers keep coming back. Learn more at hubspot.com.

• 34:15Manoush Zomorodi?

  It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. On the show today, bravery in relationships. And we were just hearing from renowned couples psychologist John and Julie Gottman about how to fight right, to use conflict to strengthen a relationship. But let's say people follow the Gottman's methods and come to the conclusion that they want different things in life. What then?

• 34:45Speaker 07

  It's true that sometimes one person's dream is the other person's nightmare, and they cannot reach a compromise. But at least they know why they're breaking up. A good example is one person really doesn't want to be a parent and the other person really needs to be a parent. That's a common reason why many people break up.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  Another one that I've seen is geography. And this is interesting, especially in our dating on the internet world. I treated a couple where they had met at a conference and then they had several rendezvous together after that. He lived in Uganda. She lived in Switzerland. And where were they going to live? They loved each other, but they couldn't make their future come true.

• 35:42Speaker 07

  Another is polyamory versus monogamy. That's a more common one these days.

• 35:50Manoush Zomorodi?

  Are you seeing that working for people? It seems like the jury's out on that, at least here in the United States.

• 35:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, there is no research on it, unfortunately. So we really don't know empirically what makes polyamory work. Another deal breaker, minutia, that's really emerged quite recently, in the last couple of decades, is when a relationship really doesn't fulfill the growth needs, either career or emotional or spiritual growth needs of one person. And that's one reason sociologists have been saying that it leads to the end of a relationship.

• 36:33Manoush Zomorodi?

  I want to just make sure I ask you, what is the payoff of fighting right? If we are brave enough to get in there and do the work, what do you see on the other side?

• 36:47Speaker 07

  So the payoff is that we can have a lifelong love. And research has shown that when you can do that, you actually live an average of 15 to 17 years longer, you're healthier, and your kids turn out better. And their relationships, when they grow up, turn out better as well.

• 37:08Speaker 06

  What I've seen in doing couple therapy for 30 years now is...

• 37:15Speaker 06

  A different kind of love. It's much more profound. It's deeper. It much more recognizes the humanity of the other partner, as well as your own humanity. And once you've seen one person in their fullness, including the cracks, you tend to be more forgiving, I think, of other people. And look at this world, Manoush. This world is split and fractured. And we desperately need a little bit more love and peace in the world. This is one way to start creating that.

• 37:58Manoush Zomorodi?

  That was Julie and John Gottman. They are co-founders of the Gottman Institute. And their latest book is called Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection. You can see their full talk at ted.com.

• 38:17Manoush Zomorodi?

  On the show today, bravery in relationships, which has to include friendship. But before we get into just friends, a warning that this episode includes some frank talk about sex.

• 38:33Speaker 10

  Good evening. This is Dr. Ruth Westheimer, right here on 97 W Y N Y F M radio.

• 38:40Manoush Zomorodi?

  So maybe you remember the iconic sex therapist, Dr. Ruth.

• 38:45Speaker 10

  Yes, you are on there. Yeah, Ruth? Yeah.

• 38:48Manoush Zomorodi?

  She rose to fame in the 1980s because she was one of the first people to openly talk about sex on the radio and on television.

• 38:57Speaker 10

  The way you can talk about reading, writing, arithmetic, you can also talk about sex.

• 39:02Manoush Zomorodi?

  She became a lively, warm, and nonjudgmental voice for generations of Americans, including journalist Allison Gilbert.

• 39:12Speaker 11

  I was one of those listeners.

• 39:15Speaker 10

  Yes, you are on the air. Hi, Dr. What time? I know you're always concerned about birth control. Yes, I am.

• 39:20Speaker 11

  I was a teenager with raging hormones who found myself with a closed bedroom door, lights out, radio really so low that I was surprised I could actually hear what she had to say.

• 39:36Speaker 10

  You know what I would do? What? Find yourself somebody else. Oh, but I love Charlie, and he loves me too.

• 39:42Speaker 11

  Because the callers, it was a call-in radio show, were asking her what I thought then were really naughty questions.

• 39:50Speaker 10

  Just give her as many orgasms as she would like. Try that, okay? Okay, thanks for that.

• 39:55Speaker 11

  That my mom was not prepared to talk with me about.

• 39:58Speaker 10

  In a way, I do want to go to bed with him. Mm-hmm. I'm afraid that if I do, it's wrong for me to do this. Right. I tell you, sometimes when I hear a 16-year-old ask me that question, I would like to say, "What's the rush?"

• 40:15Speaker 11

  And so I was a fan before I was ever a collaborator. And so to say that I was in awe when I finally got to meet her at 95, she had been in my world, so to speak, since I was a kid.

• 40:33Manoush Zomorodi?

  As an adult, Allison was thrilled when she was assigned by The New York Times to write an article about Dr. Ruth's new role.

• 40:42Speaker 11

  Dr. Ruth was on a mission to be appointed New York State's first ambassador to loneliness.

• 40:50Manoush Zomorodi?

  She had been reading and observing what the U.S. Surgeon General has called "an epidemic of loneliness and isolation," and she was determined to be part of solving this health crisis by teaching people how to have the courage to form friendships.

• 41:07Speaker 11

  She knew she can help. She had something to say. And the article that I was assigned was to report on this mission.

• 41:17Speaker 11

  And then as soon as the article published, it's like both of our guards went down. And before I really realized what was happening, she was enveloping me. And what I have come to understand is like her web of love and friendship that seems, now that I look back, ever growing. And I just found myself fortunate to be in that space. And what I found was that warmth you heard through the radio.

• 41:51Speaker 12

  Tracy, I think that you should find yourself a new man, okay?

• 41:55Speaker 11

  That magic that captivated TV watchers when she went on television.

• 42:00Speaker 13

  Do you have changed sex for America?

• 42:02Speaker 12

  Don't you tell me that it's less good now?

• 42:04Speaker 13

  No, it's better now. Everyone knows.

• 42:06Speaker 11

  That, to me, was still present in her apartment, in her living room, despite her being, when I met her, mostly confined to a wheelchair. Do you feel that you are a good friend to others?

• 42:20Manoush Zomorodi?

  This is a recording of Allison and Dr. Ruth in the last few months of her life, before she died at the age of 96 in 2024.

• 42:30Speaker 12

  Not only do I think that I'm a good friend, I was a superb friend. I'm like the best friend that anybody could have.

• 42:41Manoush Zomorodi?

  Allison became Dr. Ruth's collaborator on her final book, The Joy of Connections.

• 42:47Speaker 12

  Since my late husband died, I wanted to write about loneliness. So now I am very happy to write this book.

• 43:00Speaker 11

  Loneliness is a feeling that you want a deeper connection with people and you feel like you're not getting what you most desire. But if you recognize it's a feeling, you can do something about it. That loneliness is, in fact, curable. But you can be your own doctor. You can do it. And you can follow her lessons. And you're not alone.

• 43:29Manoush Zomorodi?

  A lot of this, I didn't realize, stems back to her own personal story.

• 43:35Speaker 11

  It was a rough childhood from 10 years old forward. During the Holocaust, her mother and grandmother put her on a train, part of the kinder transport, to remove German Jewish children to safety. Her father had already been taken by the Nazis. And this was their attempt to save Ruth's life.

• 44:04Speaker 12

  You can't control what life is going to throw you away.

• 44:08Manoush Zomorodi?

  Here's Dr. Ruth Westheimer on the TED stage in 2015.

• 44:12Speaker 12

  At the age of 10 and a half, when the Nazis came to power, I was sent to Switzerland to a children's home, hoping that my parents could get out of Germany and pick me up. The children's home became an orphanage. And I have learned some lessons from that particular time to take control of my life and make the best of it. Nobody is going to pick up your worries. They will still be there the next day. But in the meantime, you can enjoy the relationship if you are lonely. My advice is don't just sit there and say, "I don't have anybody."

• 44:58Speaker 12

  Do something.

• 45:00Speaker 11

  She felt she had what she needed to move forward after the worst happened. And that just made her want to seek and establish a chosen family throughout her entire life that was made up of friends. She kept collecting friends, bit by bit, like gems. It's a masterclass, really, of losing your entire family and yet pushing forward and rebuilding.

• 45:32Manoush Zomorodi?

  What are the main things that she thinks cures loneliness? Give us like the top tips.

• 45:42Speaker 11

  I will tell you a story that I think is so illustrative of her secret sauce. She would end nearly every conversation when I was packing up to go, and she would ask me the same question. When will I see you again? And that was my cue to take her paper calendar and to assign my name to a date and a specific time. And it's a magical question. When will I see you again? It communicates so much that she wanted to see me again, which made me, of course, feel special, that there was a burgeoning friendship.

• 46:24Speaker 11

  But it also showcases her real interest in being proactive about her life, that she was not going to leave to chance what she wanted.

• 46:37Manoush Zomorodi?

  OK, so you have to make an effort. Sounds kind of obvious, but necessary.

• 46:43Speaker 11

  I don't think it's obvious at all. I think we all spread ourselves so thin. And that breath, Dr. Ruth would say, is at odds oftentimes with depth. And so opt for meaningful busyness, not just busyness.

• 47:00Manoush Zomorodi?

  I love that. But she also says that you need to broaden your friend cabulary.

• 47:09Speaker 11

  I love that, right? Because she was, she didn't want to give people the wrong idea that, oh, my gosh, I need a best friend. I need a BFF. If I don't have that one person, I'm doomed. You can have an acquaintance. You can have someone who perhaps you see infrequently, but what you do together is an experience that you feel broadens and deepens.

• 47:36Speaker 11

  I loved visiting her in her apartment building in New York City because when we would go outside, she would know everybody. They would engage her in conversation, but she would not let them go either. These were just incredible, brief conversations because even if we engage with strangers, just a simple hello, it helps us develop a sense of connection in community with other people.

• 48:08Manoush Zomorodi?

  She was also kind of tricky. Like, there's another tip where she says feigned needs, like, ask the neighbor for a cup of milk instead of going out to buy it just so that you can have an excuse to talk to them.

• 48:20Speaker 11

  How can you not love Dr. Ruth? Sure, you may have a carton of eggs in the fridge, but if you're making a cake and you feel like you want to have an excuse to maybe have a conversation with someone next door, so what? Ask them for an egg. I mean, who is that going to hurt? Engage in those little conversations with neighbors because that is what's going to progress a relationship.

• 48:47Manoush Zomorodi?

  It seems to me that what all of these tips and ideas and suggestions have in common is it's on you to make the first move, to start up the conversation, to interrupt a group and insert yourself in some way. And you might be rejected, maybe, but that's OK. It's going to be hard.

• 49:12Speaker 11

  She had no patience for complaining. Let's just call it like it is. She would not have any of that. It is up to you, the individual, to do something with your life. You're given this opportunity. Go for it. No one is going to come in and push you out the door to make friends. You have to decide that it's so important to you to feel better, to be enriched by relationships, that you experience the tailwind of needing to turn off Netflix and get out the door. "Go where the people are," she would say. "They're not on your couch."

• 49:57Speaker 12

  It's up to each person. You have to make the first step to make sure that you are combating the loneliness.

• 50:08Speaker 11

  What are you doing or not doing that's put you in a place where you feel lonely? And she's going to show you, step by little step, how to move forward so you can feel that you belong. Because you are deserving of relationships that make you feel seen.

• 50:34Manoush Zomorodi?

  That was journalist Allison Gilbert. We are dedicating this entire episode to the memory of Dr. Ruth Westheimer, whose TED Talk you can watch at ted.npr.org. Her new book, co-written with Allison Gilbert and Pierre Le Hugh, is called The Joy of Connections: 100 Ways to Beat Loneliness and Live a Happier and More Meaningful Life.

• 51:04Manoush Zomorodi?

  Thank you so much for listening to our episode about bravery in relationships. It was produced by Rachel Faulkner White, Hersha Nahada, and Katie Monteleone. It was edited by Sanaz Meshkhanpour and me. Our production staff at NPR also includes James Delahoussaye, Fiona Giran, and Matthew Cloutier. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. A special thank you to Bumika Jane, Yush Bhutada, Mitra Arthur, and Ajani Daniel for voice acting. Our audio engineers were Tiffany Vera Castro, Becky Brown, and Patrick Murray.

• 51:43Manoush Zomorodi?

  Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxane Highlash, Alejandra Salazar, and Daniela Balorazo. I'm Manoush Zamirodi, and you've been listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

• 52:03Speaker 05

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.