Why "we should hang out" won't make you real friends

Ready to turn that work bestie into a real friend? Or maybe you want to hang outside run club with your fun jogging buddy? In this episode, Kat Vellos, author of We Should Get Together, explains how to turn acquaintances into real friends — and how to foster the connection you’re seeking. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Support the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekit http://plus.npr.org/lifekit See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:18Marielle Segarra?

  You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.

• 0:23Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, it's Marielle. You know when you meet somebody and you're like, you, you could be a great friend?

• 0:34Marielle Segarra?

  Y'all are just hitting it off. The conversation flows, they make you laugh, you want to know more about them. So you say, hey, we should get together sometime. See, that was your first mistake because...

• 0:48Speaker 02

  The more specific you are, the more likely it is that you're actually going to get together. You know, pull out your calendar, pick a time, pick a thing to do together and actually follow through.

• 0:59Marielle Segarra?

  This is Kat Vellos, author of a book called We Should Get Together: The Secret to Cultivating Better Friendships. Kat works directly with people who are having a hard time making friends where they live. And she talks to city leaders and urban planners about designing spaces for connection. Another tip, she says, is that if you're actively seeking new friends, consider what kind you're looking for. Kat was working with one woman who realized, you know, I'm not actually looking for a new best friend.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  I need somebody who wants to get involved in like my new fitness hobby with me, right? And so that has a really different shape than if she was looking for somebody who would be a new best friend or chosen family. And so by realizing that what she needed was an activity buddy, it didn't have to be that deep. You know, they just had to have mutual enthusiasm for doing this activity together.

• 1:47Marielle Segarra?

  On this episode of Life Kit, tips on how to make new friends. Kat and I talk about what she calls friendship intuition, about how to make that first invite, about how much time to spend together in the early days, and about what to do when you realize, you know, I don't actually like this person that much after all. That's coming up after the break.

• 2:29Speaker 00

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• 3:05Speaker 03

  This message comes from Bayer. Science is about asking questions, testing, trying again. It's not easy, but it's relentless. It evolves, and that's why science delivers. Learn more at sciencedelivers.com.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes and more about how to make better decisions to help avoid costly mistakes. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen.

• 3:52Marielle Segarra?

  Kat, let's talk about how to spot a potential friend in the wilds. So maybe this is in a community space or at a group dinner or at a bar. I wonder, how do you know that someone has friend potential? I think for me, it's like when I feel warm around them.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Yes, so this touches on like friendship intuition. And sometimes if folks haven't had to intentionally seek out new friendships as an adult, it can be unfamiliar to be like, well, how do I know who to choose or who to prioritize? So I would say notice for sure who you feel that warmth with, who you feel grounded and safe around, who you feel mutual curiosity with. Things will vary from person to person, like where that vibe lies. And it's often like not necessarily the most exciting person in the room. Like they might have a lot of charisma, magnetic charm, but they might not be who you feel like grounded, comfort, warmth. Look for those kinds of feelings and see who you're drawn to. And also notice if they show curiosity about getting to know you more too.

• 4:54Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway one, start to hone your friendship intuition. When you're out there in the world, check in with your body. Do you feel at ease with this person? Are you relaxed? Also, are you curious about them? Do you make each other laugh? Keep in mind, though, the funniest or the most charismatic person in the room may not be a very good friend for you. Friendship is about more than charisma.

• 5:19Marielle Segarra?

  Okay, so let's say you are out in the world and you meet someone. And this is the first time you're meeting them, but you do have that feeling like you seem cool. How might you ask them to hang out if you do want to do that?

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. So I really suggest that if it's possible to get together again soon and build on the context of your current hangout moment, that's a really natural way to do that. So one example is if you are at trivia night at the pub and you're having this great chat with this person that you just met there, ask if they want to be on the same trivia team next week or ask if they want to check out Boombox Bingo that's happening in a couple of days. So that way you're building on the context of how you met. You know a little bit about where they are. You know, at this particular night, you know, they go to this thing. So it's highly likely that they're going to be willing to hang out there again with you sometime soon. And I want to emphasize the soon in this

• 6:16Speaker 02

  because a common mistake that people make when they're trying to get together with a new acquaintance or build a new friendship is they wait too long to see that new acquaintance again. And in that time, the spark can fizzle out. I see it all the time in my work. But there's a really beautiful piece of research that comes out about how long it takes to convert an acquaintance into a friend or even into a best friend. It comes from the work of Dr. Jeffrey Hall at University of Kansas. And he quantified how many hours it takes to convert a stranger into a friend. More than 30 for a casual friend. And it really needs to be compressed, preferably in those first several weeks of meeting each other. And so this research kind of confirms what your intuition might say, which is like, if you spend a lot of time together, when the relationship is new, it's more likely to stick.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  And this is absolutely true. A lot of times adults will follow some kind of arbitrary rule that says, you can't hang out two days in a row, or you can't see somebody more than once a week. And unfortunately, this is why so many friendships fizzle out.

• 7:14Marielle Segarra?

  Okay, this might reveal something about my personality, but I would be a little worried to hang out with someone too much right away, someone who I just met, because I wouldn't want to rush into being like, now we're such good friends. And then you realize you don't know them at all, or you being your true self is like annoying to them. But now you're too deep in. I mean, I feel this way about romantic entanglements too. It's often, it feels like a good idea to kind of set boundaries early on.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it doesn't mean that you're pretending to be besties right away, or that you're calling yourself besties right away. You don't have to define the relationship right off. It's just a way to learn enough about each other in a short enough amount of time that you can make a really educated guess about like, do I want to keep going with this person? But if you have coffee for, you know, 45 minutes once a month, it's going to be hard to learn enough about each other in any short of efficient timeframe to know if you should keep going.

• 8:12Marielle Segarra?

  So we've talked about when you met someone out in the world. Maybe it's the first time you met them. But there are also instances where someone's currently more of an acquaintance, or they're a work friend, you know, like you're friendly with them, but you haven't hung out outside of work. Or maybe you play on a sports team with them, but you haven't hung out outside of that. How might you see if there is a friendship to be had there?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, so to talk about like the work example, it's useful to start by developing your at-work friendship. So in that case, it could be going to some work events together and chatting afterwards, right? So if there's a cool workshop. That the Employee Resource Group is hosting, that's a social event you can attend with this work friend, right? Or if there's a team lunch or some other kind of after work happy hour. Like, within the work context, you can simply hang out with them more and then get together to like chat or debrief or, or, you know, how was that for you sort of thing? What did you think about that? And learn more about each other within that context and simply be work friends. And then if you feel like, hmm, this person's pretty cool, I'd actually like to be non-work friends with

• 9:16Speaker 02

  them, then you can tell them, hey, if you ever want to hang out outside of work, feel free to invite me. I would say yes, you know, and invite them to say, hey, would you like to hang out outside of work sometime? I would love to spend some more time with you.

• 9:30Marielle Segarra?

  Okay, takeaway two, you meet somebody cool, ask them to hang out and do it soon, especially if this is someone you only met once, because the more time passes, the less likely you are to get together. Also, let's say they say yes, and you're hitting it off. Consider hanging out more often than you think you should. You don't have to pretend you're besties right away. Just invest enough time so you can gather some momentum and you can both consider whether this friendship is a good fit. As for what to do together, if you meet them in a certain context, like, let's say, playing softball, suggest something adjacent, like, want to go to the batting cages next week? Kat says you should offer a specific invitation, not just say, hey, we should hang out sometime.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, because that we should hang out sometime, sometime is a vague sense in the future. And this is part of why, you know, my book is called We Should Get Together, because everyone says that, but it's like, no, literally, we really need to get together. Don't just say that as a substitute for it was nice to meet you. Say it if you really mean it and then follow through on it. And the more specific you are, the more likely it is that you're actually going to get together, you know, pull out your calendar, pick a time, pick a thing to do together, and actually follow through. And I want to say a thing here about what often happens is like the default hangout, which is a coffee date. Coffee dates are fine. A lot of people default to them for a first date, but I also want to say that coffee is kind of forgettable. It kind

• 10:56Speaker 02

  of doesn't feel that important. It's easy to cancel. And it doesn't give you a lot of fodder for conversation. So if you pick something that's just like a little bit more interesting, it's going to amp up the excitement that both people have to show up and like not cancel. So like, if you tell me you're into knitting, I might be like, hey, there's an event happening at the yarn store. You know, or like, there's this gallery exhibit of like really cool yarn art. Do you want to go? You're probably more likely to say yes, because it's like something you actually care about, and it sounds interesting, right? And there's another benefit, I just want to mention here because I love this. So researchers at Cornell University found that when people who don't know each other very well do an out of the ordinary experience together, it actually bonds them a lot faster than doing a run of the mill activity like just another coffee.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  And the more unusually experienced, the stronger the bond. Because when we do something that's like a little unusual, people get distracted by the details and they forget to focus on feeling awkward. So it takes away the discomfort of hanging out with somebody you don't know that well, because that novelty draws both of your attention, and it also gives you a memory that you can have together. Like, oh, we went to this classic car show, or we like went to this vegan food truck festival, and that's your meet cute, you know? It's going to be a lot more memorable than like, hey buddy, remember that latte? Like, nobody's going to remember that latte, but you're going to remember that lecture about psychedelics or whatever.

• 12:19Marielle Segarra?

  So when you ask someone to hang out, they they might not be interested, or they might say something like, you know, I have young kids and I have no time.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  True.

• 12:28Marielle Segarra?

  I love talking to you. I love hanging out with you. I love being your work friend. And I am not a reliable friend right now. Outside of work. And that's okay, too.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  And that is totally okay, too. And and I think we should be grateful when people are honest with us about their capacity. They might say, I really like you. You're great. I really don't have any time for new friends in my life. I am so sorry, you know? And we can be grateful that they were honest and clear with us so that we don't end up pouring a lot of energy in a direction that this person just has no capacity to meet. And sometimes that line is very clear like that, where it's like kind of a no. And try not to take that personal.

• 13:07Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway three: If someone seems unenthused about your invite, or if they make no effort to follow up, or they flat out say no, let it go. It's just not a good fit. If they say something like, "I would truly love to, but this is a busy season for me. My kids have all these extracurriculars," or "I'm taking care of a sick parent." You can tell them that you are open to hanging out if and when they free up, and you can lower the bar to entry for them. Don't be pushy, but you can offer a lower effort hang and try to meet them in this moment. This also works with existing friends.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  And so sometimes it just means being creative and being willing to not do a Instagrammable thing together, but actually just getting in each other's real life. You know, I have a friend who has three small kids, and sometimes the best place to meet her is at school pickup. And I'm just like, "Let's meet in the parking lot. Let's hang out while you're waiting for your kid to come out of school," you know? And that's okay. It can be something that fits into your regular life. And that's often where friendships take on the flavor of chosen family, is because we're fitting the friend into the context of our real life and not blocking it off for a box in the calendar away from the rest of our life.

• 14:19Marielle Segarra?

  I think that's really sweet.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  I do, too. I love it.

• 14:27Marielle Segarra?

  We'll have more Life Kit after the break.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini, one subscription that does it all. Personalized AI and premium business versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Drive, and more. Try it free for 14 days at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  This message comes from Bayer. Science is about asking questions, testing, trying again. It's not easy, but it's relentless. It evolves. And that's why science delivers. Learn more at sciencedelivers.com.

• 15:18Speaker 03

  This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast.

• 15:33Marielle Segarra?

  What are some other ways we can really go deeper with new friends? Start to get to know them? Like, I think you had an Instagram post where you talked about things to say instead of how are you?

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Uh huh, yes. Yes, so that was born out of the frustration that I have with small talk. I am an introvert and my social energy, I want to expand it on like as nutritious a conversation as possible. And a lot of folks that I know also that I meet through my work are frustrated with small talk or frustrated with like surface level conversations. My beef with how are you is we use it as a greeting and it's not always clear how interested the person really is and how you're really doing. So you have to ask it differently if you really want to hear how someone's really, really doing. Sometimes it is just like you want to check in with somebody on how they're doing, but it's more useful to ask a specific question like, how was your morning been? Right? How are you feeling, you know, on this Monday or whatever?

• 16:28Speaker 02

  And then it's really clear that they really do want to hear, you know, how was your morning? And you can say like, I'm doing great or I have cramps or whatever. And then other times it can be just something a little bit more interesting that helps you learn more about this person or that feels a little bit playful. You know, you can do this in friendship, you can do this at work too. So starting a meeting with the question, you know, what's one way that you're similar to who you were as a 16 year old? And like, what's one way you're different? And it can reveal some really fun storytelling or interesting, like meaningful identity pieces and it's more interesting than just, eh, so like, yeah, it's like snowing again or it's raining or it's hot again.

• 17:07Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway four, as you get to know your new friend, ask questions that allow them to open up to you. Not just how are you, but how was your morning? Or how did that thing go for you? You can also consider some of the magical questions that Priya Parker, the author of The Art of Gathering, told us about in another episode of Life Kit. These work well for groups, but they also work one on one. What was the first concert you went to and who took you? When was the last time you went all in on celebrating something or someone? What's the weirdest thing you've ever found in your pocket? Now, as you do spend time with this new friend of yours, you may discover that you're actually not that into them. What about if you have started hanging out?

• 17:52Marielle Segarra?

  And you're just like, oh, I don't actually like them that much. Or they annoy me. Or they, I seem to annoy them.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's okay to be like, okay, we're not going to take this train all the way to the Bestie Station at the end of the track, you know? But instead, you can decide if it's really like, I actually want to stop seeing them. Or if you simply want to move them into the outer ring of connection. Because there really are rings. There's like your inner circle. There's the next ring of like friends you might invite to your birthday party. The next ring of like, I would be happy if I saw them randomly, but I'm not going to seek them out. And then it's like, it's okay for strangers, you know?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  And so you can decide like, okay, I'm not going to keep moving them into the inner ring. But it's okay if I see them randomly. It's okay if I bump into them at someone else's party, but we don't have to keep hanging out. And you don't have to like, full on dump them. Like, the majority of friendships, this is super interesting. So, research found that Americans, or adults in general, tend to lose one to two friendships a year. And it doesn't usually come from a full on breakup. Usually friendships just fade away. And if you stop reaching out, unless they're super, super into you, they might stop reaching out. And so you can kind of drift away naturally and then still have it feel amicable when you see each other again, you know?

• 19:05Marielle Segarra?

  Okay, so, let's say you do have a new friend. It's going well. You know, you've been out a few times. What are some ways that you can try to make the friendship stick?

• 19:16Speaker 02

  So, there's four seeds of connection. I described this in my book. These four seeds of connection are the four elements that if they are present, it is more likely that this friendship is going to last. And it doesn't mean that all four of them have to be at 100%. You know, it will vary from person to person. But the more of them you have, the more likely it is that it'll work. So, the first one is compatibility. So, hopefully, there's enough mutual interest there and chemistry that you want to keep going. And then from there, it's frequency, proximity, and commitment. And the more of that you have, the more likely it is that this friendship will stick and last. So, frequency, right? It's like how often are you seeing each other? Proximity is how much time can you spend face to face?

• 20:01Speaker 02

  How how close can you be? And this might be long distance where you might increase your frequency because you're not going to be face to face. But if you have the chance to be face to face, get that time. It's a much more high fidelity connection than being at a distance. And over time, if you're both committed, you're both dedicated, keep fostering that commitment through trust, through vulnerability, through all of those things that help us feel closer. And so compatibility, frequency, proximity and commitment. Pay attention to those four things. And the more of those you do, the better off you'll be.

• 20:34Marielle Segarra?

  Okay, Kat, thank you so much.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 20:41Marielle Segarra?

  Okay, time for a recap.

• 20:45Marielle Segarra?

  Consider what kinds of friends you're looking for. Do you want a new best friend? An activity buddy? Someone you can see once a week, once a month? And then takeaway one, hone your friendship intuition. When you're meeting people, ask yourself, do I feel at ease with this person? Am I curious about them? Do we make each other laugh? Does there seem to be mutual interest? Takeaway two, when you meet someone with friend potential, ask them to hang out and do it soon. And consider seeing them more often than you think you should. You want to give yourselves a real chance to suss out the friendship and gather momentum. Also, be specific when you invite them out. Don't just say, hey, we should hang out sometime.

• 21:27Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway three, if someone says no to your offer of friendship, that's okay. Let it go. And if someone does seem genuinely interested, but they say, listen, I'm in a really busy season right now with my kids or moving into this new house, but I do like you and I'd love to hang out. Let them know you're down for a low effort hang too. Walk to the train together, run errands, wait in line at the pharmacy. This approach is probably best for people you already know and want to get closer to, not for the stranger you just met at the bar. Takeaway four, as you get to know your new friend, go beyond how are you to ask questions that actually allow them to open up. And as you spend time with them, you may discover that you're not that into them or this friendship, and that is okay.

• 22:12Marielle Segarra?

  There are so many potential friends out there in the world.

• 22:19Marielle Segarra?

  All right, that's our show. By the way, before you go, have you been lifting weights recently? Yeah, you. Want to dig deeper into the science of strength training? We have a special playlist with our favorite episodes about strength. Become a subscriber to Life Kit Plus to get exclusive access to this and other Life Kit playlists that'll help you start moving your body, master your budget, get better sleep, and more. Sign up at plus.npr.org/lifekit. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Mika Ellison and Margaret Serino. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Cain is our senior supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive

• 23:01Marielle Segarra?

  producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagle, Claire Marie Schneider, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Tiffany Vera Castro. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

• 23:26Speaker 00

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