378: If You Want to Be a Champion, You Can't Just Lie Around Sleeping Like Everybody Else. "Kimura".

Masahiko Kimura (木村 政彦, Kimura Masahiko, September 10, 1917 – April 18, 1993) was a Japanese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_people judoka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judoka and professional wrestler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling who is widely considered one of the greatest judoka of all time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_judoka.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura#cite_note-kimura1-1[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura#cite_note-2[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura#cite_note-3 He won the All-Japan Judo Championships three times in a row for the first time in history and had never lost a judo match from 1936 to 1950. An author said," In the history of judo, no one is the strongest before Kimura and no one is the strongest after Kimura."[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura#cite_note-4 He has often been described as the strongest judoka in history.[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura#cite_note-5 In submission grappling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submission_grappling, the reverse ude-garami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armlock#Kimura_(Gyaku_ude-garami) arm lock is often called the "Kimura",[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura#cite_note-The_Kimura_%E2%80%93_A_History_&_Techniques-6 due to his famous victory over Gracie jiu-jitsu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracie_jiu-jitsu founder Hélio Gracie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9lio_Gracie. In the Japanese professional wrestling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_professional_wrestling world, he is known for the controversial match he had with Rikidōzan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikid%C5%8Dzan. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 378 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. "I was in his control as soon as we stood close to each other. I had no time to even hold or grapple him. I was taken into the ground and I got choked at first. It was difficult to breathe. I felt it working, enough so I was wondering if I should tap as I promised Carlos."

• 0:29Jocko Willink?

  "Well, this is what I've never told anybody before. It seems I went unconscious while I was thinking about what to do, to give up or not. If Kimura had continued to choke me, I would have died for sure. But since I didn't give up, Kimura let go of the choke and went into the next technique. Being released from the choke and the pain from the next technique revived me and I continued to fight. Kimura went to his grave without ever knowing the fact that I was finished. If possible, I wish I could have talked about the fight with him and let him know about it."

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  "Kimura was strong, strong and a gentleman. He spoke in my ear in Japanese, 'good, good', while catching me with an arm lock. I don't understand Japanese at all, but strangely I was encouraged by his voice. It gave me power. I was anxious about it, so I asked him later. He said, 'I was admiring your heart.'"

• 1:35Jocko Willink?

  Same to him. "I think I got the authentic Samurai spirit from him. I might have been Japanese in my previous life."

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is a little quote from the great Aleo Gracie, founder of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

• 1:56Jocko Willink?

  Which, in my opinion, what do they say, in my humble opinion?

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  In my humble opinion, kinda makes him the founder of modern martial arts. Agree, disagree?

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Modern, yep.

• 2:06Jocko Willink?

  At least you have to, that's a consideration. What do they say when they say, in the conversation, right?

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13Jocko Willink?

  In the conversation for the founding of modern mixed martial arts, Ali O'Gracy has to be in the conversation, 100%. And it's a quote from an interview that is quoted in a book, and the book is called Kimura, "The Triumphs and Tragedy of Japan's Greatest and Most Controversial Judo Champion." This book was originally given to me recently by my friend and training partner, Mihha. You know Mihha?

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:42Jocko Willink?

  You know Mihha. He trained with me, huh?

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes.

• 2:45Jocko Willink?

  When you arrive at the training zone.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it goes down, for sure.

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  So, Mihha, we went on a little trip lately, and he gave me this book to check out, and I thought,

• 2:58Jocko Willink?

  "Let's check it out." And, Mihha, he's, you know, obviously, he's a Jiu-Jitsu black belt, he's also a Judo black belt, but he thought I would like the book, so, read the book, and this is a book, obviously, about Kimura. This is a, there's a submission hold, also called Kimura. It's one of my favorites.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 3:18Jocko Willink?

  It's named, the submission hold has other names, people called other things, but by now, pretty much, everyone calls it a Kimura, and is named after him, and that's the move that he put on Ali O'Gracy. And we'll get into that Ali O'Gracy match that they had. You know, Ali O'Gracy was a lot smaller, and they had a good scrap, but he eventually had the towel thrown in, so he didn't get his arm removed from his body by Kimura. But, interesting life.

• 3:50Jocko Willink?

  Incredible fighter and I just wanted to uh jump into this book. You got any background on Camaro over there?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Um, just the same as as you.

• 3:59Jocko Willink?

  Just that right there?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was uh, he was already a super well-known guy in the martial arts world back in those days.

• 4:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  But yeah, he was one of the, he's kind of the main catalyst for Elio Gracie from what I understand. From what like, yeah, and go and you said you actually meant you said um, the one of the main, what do you say, found? Elio Gracie being the founder of modern martial arts, mixed martial arts, I think so. Although they were doing Valley Tudo and stuff in in other ways or whatever, but yeah, how it kind of came to America and now what it is right now, MMA. I would say.

• 4:32Jocko Willink?

  Like if it wasn't, if it wasn't for, if it wasn't for Elio Gracie, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. You wouldn't quite have what we have.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  And the evolution of martial arts in the last, I mean, we could say in the last six months. But you take the last 10 years, it's crazy. But since 1993, since that first UFC. The evolution has been incredible. The entire world of martial arts has changed. I mean, it used to be a totally different thing.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:02Jocko Willink?

  In 1979, what martial arts were was a totally different thing than what it is now.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, the main was so back in, so Gracie Jiu-Jitsu technically on record is was founded in 1925.

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  Maeda came over and taught the Gracie family what he called Jiu-Jitsu, which was very close to Judo.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then you see, and so he became sort of this source because it kind of changed it, the source. And then the main vein was actually Horan Gracie. Who he was the oldest son where he brought it to America and was like, hey, we need to like show everybody. So he's the one who made the first UFC. Put Hoist in there and but they were all training, they're all doing it, but it wasn't revealed to the world because of not, or it was later because of media. You'll see this big spectacle or whatever. And then slowly it's slowly started to spread through that main vein. And then in 2005, when Ultimate Fighter came out. That was when media really took it. Turning into a little reality show because that's when reality shows started getting their legs, you know? So boom, they mix that up, boom, from there was just this massive, massive explosion.

• 6:10Jocko Willink?

  But it's crazy to think about, like, these guys back in the day, they knew something that people just didn't know. They knew something that people did not know. And nowadays, look, you get into a street fight, there's a chance people know what the guard is. They might know how to slap a guillotine on. They might know, you know, what the mount is like, they're gonna know this stuff.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:33Jocko Willink?

  And if you go into any jujitsu school, like, they're gonna know a lot of it. Man, back in the day, like, when I, when I got, when I trained jujitsu for the first time with Master Chief Steve Bailey, where there was no comprehension of what was happening. There was no comprehension at all. This did not, this was not a thing at all. There was no, there was not even like a thought of what was happening. It wasn't like, the, the, the idea that someone would take your arm and put it in a position where you would have to say uncle.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  It didn't make sense. It wasn't a thing.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially if the guy wasn't bigger than you.

• 7:09Jocko Willink?

  So it went from not being a thing at all to being the thing.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:13Jocko Willink?

  Think about that transition. So these guys, and judo, you know, we, we've done some podcasts on judo. We've done some podcasts on Kano to talk about where that developed from, but judo, very powerful, very powerful martial art. And, and it is, you know, the roots of jujitsu. See, it's interesting because judo is rooted in jujitsu, but modern jujitsu is rooted in judo again, back at it. So anyways, this guy, one of the greatest judokas ever, we're gonna roll into it. We're gonna look at his book here. And here we go. Kimura Masahiko was born on the southern island of Kyushu. And I apologize for the Japanese speakers out there.

• 7:56Jocko Willink?

  I don't speak Japanese at all and I mangle all words. So, born September 19, September 10th, 1917. Little is known about his family background, although the family was said to be poor. According to one biography of Kimura, at the age of around 10, he began to help his father collect river gravel and stones to sell. They had to dig the gravel from the river bottom and deliver it to a nearby truck. On Sundays and holidays, when Kimura was out of school, he would work from 4:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. hauling gravel.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  An experience later credited with helping him build a strong body. You gotta have a little bit of mythology going on here. When you picture this 10 year old kid hauling gravel out of the river. Cold river got having to go out. I mean, well, how deep is he going to get it? Is it knee deep or is he having to get a little breath hold activity going on? And he's doing that from 4am to 6pm. That's what's happening.

• 8:52Jocko Willink?

  His uncle also encouraged the youngster to drink carp's blood, which is said to be good for the heart. So there you go. He's just ripping the heads off of fish and drinking their blood while carrying rocks out of the river for 14 hours a day. You know, like you're going to be ready for some jujitsu or some judo competitions. Japanese children were generally protected and not disciplined until they were about five. At that age, they began to face strict discipline, especially from their fathers. This often led young boys to act out with with a rebellious streak. And based on his later actions, Kimura almost certainly developed into a mischievous child when he entered school at the age of about six. By the time he was around nine or 10, Kimura was relatively large for his age

• 9:36Jocko Willink?

  and appears to have become something of a ringleader among the mischief makers in the school. During his fourth grade year, isn't it crazy? I mean, we're talking about a guy's fourth grade year. We got some deets, bro, some details on this guy. The students were mustered to engage in osoji, a thorough mass cleaning of the school. With his teacher, Mr. Tagawa absent, Kimura snuck away, dashing to a nearby snack shop and gobbling down five or six man to or steamed stuffed buns. Returning to his class, he saw several students moving Mr. Tagawa's desk. He ran toward the desk and jumped onto it, causing the desk to noisily collapse.

• 10:20Jocko Willink?

  Kimura jumped up and down with joy screaming bonsai bonsai. And then he, there's, there's quotes in here and I looked for this book that he has an autobiography out there somewhere, or it's taken from interviews. I couldn't find either one of them. Miha looked for him as well. I couldn't find it. He says this, this is now Kimura talking. Suddenly someone grabbed me firmly in the rear lapel and pulled me backward. When I turned my head, I found Mr. Tagawa, who I thought was absent glaring at me with a very scary look. He yelled idiot face and slapped me in the face. He then threw me to the floor. He pulled me up, slapped me and threw me to the

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  floor again. After this, I was scolded in the teacher's room and stood in the corridor. After this incident, I decided to get even with Mr. Tagawa. I thought about how to get revenge on him for about a week and investigated his background. I then found out that he was a first Don in judo. I thought, is judo such a formidable art? Then I would be able to throw him if I became a second Don. Soon after this, I entered into the Shoda Kana dojo nearby by elementary school. So he's got a little bit of a streak, right? Imagine being 10 years old or whatever he is, fourth grade. What are you in for? Yeah, in fourth grade, you're 10 years old. So he's 10

• 11:41Jocko Willink?

  years old. This teacher, he's actually being a jackass and the teacher slaps him around a little bit and he starts plotting revenge, researches it, does background check, figure out what's his new deal, where his weakness is, finds out he's only a first Don in judo. Once I become a second Don, I'll be able to take him.

• 12:02Jocko Willink?

  All right. It goes on to say, Mr. Tagawa's corporal punishment and humiliation of the young Kimura was exactly what he needed. He began to practice judo and after only about a year, he entered his first competition, which they call Shai, I think. A match with the Nakayama dojo, which was located about three miles away. He faced a much bigger eighth grader. Kimura attempted a body drop throw and a major outer reaping throw to no effect, then attacked with the major inner reaping throw, but his opponent reversed the technique on him and pinned him to the ground with the top four corners hold for the win.

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  Kimura continued to practice hard, driven on by the memory of his defeat. In 8th grade, he entered a prefectural sumo tournament and placed 2nd. He narrowly missed first place when he threw his opponent by a soto gari, but the referee declared that his foot had been out of bounds. This success, and probably a growing reputation in judo circles, raised Kimura's visibility. A recruiter for Chinsei Junior High School visited his home and invited Kimura

• 13:16Jocko Willink?

  to attend the school and play either for the sumo or judo team. In 1932, Kimura entered Chinsei and became a fantastic, a training fanatic. In addition to practicing at school, he trained at the Kawakida Dojo 3 times a week, at the Butokuden and the Imperial 5th High School. Altogether, he later remembered he practiced judo 5 hours a day and did 300 pushups daily.

• 13:48Jocko Willink?

  So, we're getting into it. That, that idea of when people get introduced into being dominated, physically dominated, can have, I guess it can have a bunch of outcomes, but the outcomes that we remember are it either makes you say, "Whatever this is, I'm going to learn it so that I can never, make sure this never happens to me", or you can say, "Whatever this is, I hate it and I'm gonna avoid it at all costs so this never happens to me." And I'm sure there's some gray area, but

• 14:21Jocko Willink?

  especially, I think, 10 years ago, when people didn't really understand what was happening, they didn't understand that it was a technique. Yeah. And if they figured out that it was a technique, they say, "Cool, I'm gonna learn these techniques." If they didn't understand it was a technique, they just ran away from it. Yeah. Sorcery. Who's the first person that put you to tap?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Probably my friend Jeremy, Jeremy Tresk.

• 14:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but keep in mind, this is a, you know, back so nineteen ninety-three UFC one. And two, so ninety-four ish. When you, we bought the videotapes, the Gracie.

• 14:56Jocko Willink?

  With the Gracie in action?

• 14:57Speaker 01

  No, no, they weren't Gracie in action, they were the, the instructional. Yeah, the VHS one.

• 15:02Jocko Willink?

  Do you remember Gracie in action?

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Yes, I do. Yeah, I still visit those very often.

• 15:07Jocko Willink?

  Cause those are, those have kind of, look, they age well, cause you still get to see it, but that's when you get to see what I was talking about earlier, just zero knowledge. Like people that literally had no idea that the concept of a fight was to get the position and get someone to, think about that. That's a totally different concept.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  That's a totally different concept. It's, it's, it's like a foreign concept that you could, that you might not understand at all.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and to prove, that's actually probably more true than that even sounds as far as you saying it. So, and this is why I know this. So, the reason that I watch them a lot now is because I watch them with my son. Cause he don't know that, you know, his idea of like, oh, let's play fight, right? And he always wants to play fight. So what is it? He's kicking me, he's punching me and stuff like that. And he's like, let, no, so I'll like grab him and, and block his punches, whatever, and I'll put him in like a choke or whatever. Or put him in mount and be like, can't fight from here, can you? He's like, no, no, no, we're not doing jujitsu, we're fighting. That's what he's, he'd say. He thinks jujitsu is just fun, like a game. And then he'll think the real fighting is just a punching and kicking part. So, I was like, hey, you, what you don't understand is jujitsu is both the punching, kicking and the jujitsu.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  And I'm saying the jujitsu, when faced with just the punching and kicking, if you don't put them together, like you'll lose to the jujitsu. He's like, whoa, what are you talking, you know, so I show him the Gracie in action when I was like, look, this is all fight. Watch this guy, he doesn't punch or kick or nothing, he just uses jujitsu. And these guys are really fighting. Look, they're really, really fighting. And he'd watch him and watch him and watch him and then now he slowly understands all, and he sees and he understands now. But it's true, cause yeah, when you see, oh yeah, two people got in a fight, oh, it's always who knocked this guy out or kicked this guy's head. Or it's still, even when we watch on the movies, when they get in a fight, oh, it's all punching and kicking, you know? So like our idea is a little bit skewed in that way, or it was anyway.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  You remember we talked on a couple podcasts ago about the Fos, I think it's the Fosbury flop? The guy that jumped over the, uh, Was the high jump, jumped over it backwards.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:08Jocko Willink?

  And totally changed the game. Someone that was, look, they've been, they've been training that way for however many decades of jump over or split jump, whatever they were doing to get over it. This was a brand new thing that people looked at and go, wait a second, what is this?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:26Jocko Willink?

  That's how different it was to say, oh, we're gonna get a hold of this opponent. And we're gonna get a hold of their arm, or we're gonna get a hold of their neck, or we're gonna get a hold of their leg. And we're gonna force them to tap out, or we're gonna break it. People just didn't understand this.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:44Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 17:47Jocko Willink?

  1932, at the age of 15, he entered his first promotional Shi I testing for shodan. That's for the first don, that's first degree. In tournaments at that time, a candidate often stayed on the mat until he was defeated. Kimura beat five other high school students and earned his shodan, so he got his first degree. The next year, his run in with his elementary school teacher and his vow to achieve naidan, apparently forgotten, he entered the promotional contest again, defeating all four members of the opposing team, all by ipan, and was promoted to naidan, which is the second degree. So, interesting in judo, if you don't know this, ipan is a way that you can immediately win a judo match

• 18:31Jocko Willink?

  by throwing your opponent where their feet leave the ground and any part of their body touches the ground before their feet. If you do that, you instantly win.

• 18:42Jocko Willink?

  We could discuss the, what that really means? Cause unfortunately, okay, if you're on concrete and you throw someone on concrete, it's definitely gonna hurt them. It's gonna hurt them more than a mat is gonna hurt them. So you could understand why people would say, well, you know, if I threw you like this,

• 19:04Jocko Willink?

  I would win. So therefore, if I throw you like this in a tournament, I will win. That being said. You can get thrown even on concrete and not be knocked out and not be injured badly. And that's where jujitsu comes into play because in jujitsu you throw someone the fight's far from over. Doesn't matter how you throw them. You have to submit them. You have to get body control. You have to really, really dominate and submit them in order to win. So the ippon, again, there are certain ippon throws that have happened on concrete like you're, you're not getting up for sure. But there's also if on throws that wouldn't knock you out, wouldn't, wouldn't knock you out, wouldn't

• 19:48Jocko Willink?

  disable you from continuing to fight. But those are the rules. That's one of the problems with the rules in fighting. As soon as you put rules in fighting, things change. Any rule, things change. Sometimes they don't really matter. Sometimes they do, sometimes they do matter. You know, one is uh, like for instance in MMA and in jujitsu, there's, there's a rule that says no small joint manipulation. All that means is I'm not allowed to grab one of your fingers and bend it and break it.

• 20:22Jocko Willink?

  So let's say I'm trying to choke you and you, and you're not allowed in a jujitsu tournament to grab my finger and break it. You're not allowed to do that. Here's why I actually think this is a legit rule. Cause if you and I were in a real fight and I, I had your back and I was trying to choke you and you grabbed my finger to try and break it, guess what I would do?

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Probably be get angry probably.

• 20:47Jocko Willink?

  I would just let you break my finger as I choke you and then I'd kill you.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:51Jocko Willink?

  So it's not a game changer, but it prevents injuries. So rules like that usually makes sense. Now look, there's going to be someone that says, yeah, but if I broke your finger, you might freak out. It's true. True. Life or death battle though? Not happening. I, you know, even happens if, if you know, if you and I are training and I get a heel hook on you. And since we're just training, I don't really crank it. And so then you get out.

• 21:20Jocko Willink?

  And I might say, well, you know, I didn't go hard because we weren't competition. Well, guess what? You also, if we were in competition, you might not tap that. You might just let the sprain happen. So it's actually, it kind of cancels itself out a little bit. I'm not cranking as hard as I could. You're also not avoiding tapping it all or, you know, just not gonna tap, which is a different thing. So.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  They're, they're all totally useful though, in my opinion. I think that all, you know, there's a sportsmanship element to, to all sports, obviously. And jiu jitsu's that, those are just some of them where, look, because in a jiu jitsu tournament, if there was small joint manipulation, you get guys who aren't, right? Jiu jitsu tournament is not life and death. So technically that finger, breaking that finger or whatever might work. Cause it's not, it's not life or death is this guy broke my finger. I'm not gonna compete with a broken finger. You know, it's not that serious to me.

• 22:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Now I can't, you know, do my job for the next four weeks while I let my finger heal up.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Or my homework, or nothing in real life or whatever. So it's kind of like, all right, let's make that a rule because it's going to vary from person to person, you know? And meanwhile, hey, if you get a hold of a finger and it's not that serious to somebody, it's like kind of effective. You know, it's like, because it hurts and you get someone who's not thinking life or death. Boom, they're gonna stop and be like, hey, my finger's broken, whatever. So let's make that a rule. Let's keep it sportsman like, you know? The heel hook thing is kind of the same thing, just to like one level lower, like in practice, right? Where, and this goes for any submission really, except for chokes. Cause chokes, you can just choke the guy out and it's no harm, no foul. But like if you get a kimono or something like that, something where like the more flexible the guy is, the more he'll probably be able to resist it, kind of a thing. And you're bending this guy's thing or heel hook or whatever.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  If this guy you're training with thinks it's like life or death, he's gonna kind of jam himself up.

• 23:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  But it's up to him. He can either tap or whatever, or, or he can be like, yeah, and get out or whatever. It's still just training. It's not that serious, you know? So it doesn't necessarily have to be a rule. So you kind of got that going on. I think that kind of goes for most sports too, you know?

• 23:17Jocko Willink?

  But you do have to be careful because there are rules of like, for instance, in MMA, you're not allowed to kick a downed opponent in the head.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:27Jocko Willink?

  Right? So that means some of these positions. Are changed. They're like, back in the day in Pride, you could kick in the head and you could knee in the head. I remember I used to spar with Dean when he's getting ready for Pride. And like if I shot on him and sprawled, he'd knee me in the head 17 times, like legit.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Teach you.

• 23:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he and it's, it's not, it's not a good thing. Whereas in the UFC, you're not allowed to do that. So that means you can shoot, you can get sprawled on. And the person has to adjust their attack and it makes you, it makes shooting a much more comfortable thing. Cause you think, oh, I'll just, you know, whatever. I'll get back to the top or I'll get back up to my feet. If you know that every time you shoot and get sprawled on, you're going to get kneed in the head nine times. That's a problem. They have the thing with that quote downed opponents. So if you and I are fighting and you're in a position where you could knee me, but I put my hand on the ground. Like up against the cage, it's happens a lot. I put my hand on the ground. Now I'm a quote down opponent. Now you're not allowed to kick or knee me in the head.

• 24:26Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's kind of right. The rules are starting to affect the, the way a fight would go.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. What do they call it? Gaming it?

• 24:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You start gaming the system.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  That's part of it.

• 24:35Jocko Willink?

  And that's one of the things that happens with judo. Another thing in judo is you can pin someone. You know, so you, if you hold someone down, that you can win the match that way. In jujitsu, you can't win by pinning. Look, it sucks being on the bottom when someone's holding you down. But you don't, that, that person on top either has to hold you there until it's over. And hopefully they're up on points or they have to try and submit you, but they can't finish the fight just by holding someone. So there are rules that affect and remove some of the realism from some martial arts. You know, some of the point fighting, uh, striking arts where you're, you're throwing strikes, but you're actually not allowed

• 25:20Jocko Willink?

  to, there's some where you're not allowed to strike in the head. So you see guys come out and they have their hands down because they're just trying to deal with body blows, which totally messes up their fighting for real. So you have to be careful with rules. Nonetheless, on Epon, in judo, you win.

• 25:42Jocko Willink?

  All right, going back to the book, the following year, May of 1934, he traveled to Kyoto for the first time in his life to test for his third degree. He was required to take a written exam and skill test as well as compete. After passing the skill test, he admits in his autobiography, which again, I tried to find, to being clueless about the written exam. So he turned around and snatched the finished exam from the boy behind him and turned it in. Obviously, the increasingly serious Kimura still had some mischievous boy inside. In the contest, at only age 16,

• 26:20Jocko Willink?

  he was awarded the rank of third degree. He moved up one degree for each of his three consecutive years. Next year, as a 10th grader, about age 15 to 16, Kimura fought in the Saga Prefectural Budokuden, red, white team match. Amazingly, with only about a year's time in grade, he threw four of the other third degrees and, and other opponents, including the captain of the opposing team, 10 for 10. He was awarded the rank of Yodan, which is fourth degree, at the age of 16, after only six years of training. He was named captain of the Chinsei High School Team as a

• 27:04Jocko Willink?

  junior, an honor usually reserved for a senior. Now, he's a badass. And not to mention, he's training five hours a day. I mean, you're training five hours a day, you're not doing anything in school, but just training. You're, now, look, there is a distinction between people that train hard, people that are naturally gifted, and then there's a third group, which is people that are naturally gifted and they train hard. If you're in that third group, you're a rare, you're a rare human. Because a lot of times, people that are naturally gifted, they get away, they don't even learn how to train hard. They don't even know how to train hard because they're just so naturally gifted. You get other people that are, that, that, they, they don't have the gift. So they have to train hard. So they learn to train hard. And both those groups actually can become

• 27:47Jocko Willink?

  champions. But if you want to become a goat, if you want to be a goat, you got to be in that third, you got to be George St. Pierre, naturally gifted and train like a freaking maniac. Right? That's what, that's what you become in those situations.

• 28:06Jocko Willink?

  So my, my suspicion is that Kimura had natural talent and trained like crazy. This is what you end up with, a guy that's just murdering people when he's 16 years old.

• 28:22Jocko Willink?

  A fourth dawn high school student was extremely rare and Kimura began to attract national attention. In his senior year, Kimura competed in the national junior high school tournament in Kyoto. His team advanced to the finals and he had, and he had to face a very tough team from Kyoto first commercial junior high school. A team known for its strong groundwork, Nawaza. That's the other thing you gotta remember is, I mean, this stuff that's going on in, in high school. You know, judo is the sport in Japan, especially in this time. It's kind of, you know, when I talk to people from around the country and people will ask me, well, people used to say like, oh, your son's in high school or your daughter's, what sports do they play?

• 29:06Jocko Willink?

  And you always say wrestling and then from my son, I'd be like, oh my, he's on the surf team. And people are like, what are you talking about? Like, oh no, they have a, yeah, he's on the surf team at his high school. What do you mean? They have a surf team. They compete against other high schools. They have a California state champion. Like that's the way it goes.

• 29:24Jocko Willink?

  Judo is like that in Japan, especially at this time. This was the sport. This is what they're doing. You know what's another cool thing? Have you, have you been to Thailand? No, never. In Thailand, Muay Thai, it's like the national sport. And if you go to America and you flew around a town in a helicopter, all the tennis courts, all the basketball courts, all the baseball diamonds, all the soccer fields, all those things, all those different sports in Thailand. The way I remember it, there's only one thing. There's just Muay Thai. So you'd be walking down the street, you see like little kids just throwing Muay Thai kicks at each other. You'd see kids kicking bags like hanging in, instead of having, you know, if you drive that through a neighborhood in San Diego,

• 30:09Jocko Willink?

  how many basketball hoops do you see in the neighborhood? Yeah, you see, you know, you see 25 houses, you see seven or eight basketball hoops in the driveway. In Thailand? There's this heavy bag.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:22Jocko Willink?

  There's that many heavy bags. There's no, nothing else.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  That's pretty legit.

• 30:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's legit.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so and I seen, you can see videos online of, you know, this guy where I remember Stuart Cooper, Stuart Cooper films, right? He lived in Thailand for a while. And you know, you can watch cool videos or whatever. And yeah, when you see the, yeah, they're out on the streets the same way. And that's such a good comparison where if you take football, basketball, baseball, and actually soccer, and you put those all together in the US, it's just. Yeah, cuz like, it's like the old thing where, you know, um, you know, you see kids just playing basketball with a basket, you know, pinned up, um, or, you know, guys just randomly playing soccer in a place where you don't really play soccer in the driveway or in the cul-de-sac or something like that. In fact, go down neighborhoods, you'll see the basketball thing, basketball basket in the cul-de-sac, you know, so it's kind of for everyone, kind of a thing. It's like, just kind of,

• 31:11Speaker 01

  we can pick up here and pick up there whenever, whatever. It's the same exact thing, but it's like, kids randomly hanging out at the park, two guys doing Muay Thai over here, you know, just kind of thing.

• 31:19Jocko Willink?

  Two guys doing Muay Thai over there, there's kid kicking a freaking palm tree over there.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's crazy.

• 31:24Jocko Willink?

  And that's what judo was at this time for Japan. It was like, that's what we're doing.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:30Jocko Willink?

  We're doing judo. So him being a champion, it's kind of like being a surfing champion in high school in California. You're, you're competing. Did they have surf teams in Hawaii?

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:41Jocko Willink?

  Were you on it?

• 31:41Speaker 01

  No, not, not for high school. No.

• 31:43Jocko Willink?

  Was I on it?

• 31:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  No, not in high school. In fact, now I'm thinking of it, they're like clubs. They're not for like high school, what you're talking about, no.

• 31:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they have a scholastic surf program and you compete.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, if they do have it in Hawaii, I don't know about it.

• 32:00Jocko Willink?

  It's like in the mountains, they have ski teams at high schools, you know, like that's just what they're doing.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  What about snowboarding?

• 32:06Jocko Willink?

  Probably.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 32:07Jocko Willink?

  But, you know, I can't speak for the snowboarding, I don't know it as well. But in New England, growing up, like some kids that went to school in Vermont or New Hampshire, they had little ski teams.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  That's dope.

• 32:17Jocko Willink?

  So that's really, really good, for lack of a better word, indoctrination. But the judo, the whole, that's why we've covered the judo books on here, and I forget the number of the podcast, but, you know, there's a whole, judo is just not a sport. It's a whole way of being. It's a whole way of acting. And that's what they were trying to inculcate the people with, was a sort of a warrior spirit that was centered around this martial art, judo. So this guy, Kimura, just being as good as he is, that's saying a lot.

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  Um, fast forward, he does another contest. There's a bunch of results of contests in here. One time he had a triple victory and his school, for the first time, became the national champions. He talks about some of those fights here, which is interesting to hear. He says, "I had two big fights during my Chinse Junior High days. In those days, budo was widely and feverishly practiced. Given this background, it was a natural consequence that a young man who rapidly became famous, became a target of challenge. The first fight occurred when I was in the second year. One member of Chinse Junior High Judo Club, whose name was Aida,

• 33:34Jocko Willink?

  who competed for the position of second year student captain with me and lost, developed a hatred toward me. On a Saturday of June, on my way to the school dojo, he walked up to me and said, "I have a little business with you, so come with me. In a case like this, the meaning of business is tactically understood." He uttered, "You are impudent. I am going to get you today." And took out a jackknife from his pocket and suddenly thrust it at my abdominal area. I thought I evaded it successfully, but the knife got into my buttock. He got on a bicycle and started to run away. I also ran after him while bleeding from the buttock and finally got to his house. He stayed inside the house and did not come out.

• 34:18Jocko Willink?

  Instead, his parents came out and apologized to me thoroughly and sincerely. They said, "Our son cut his own hand when he stabbed you. He is in his bed now. A doctor's on the way." It turned out that Aida's injury was more serious than mine, but I had to stay away from practice for about 20 days."

• 34:34Jocko Willink?

  So he got cut up. Dude, back in the day.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Just like that.

• 34:38Jocko Willink?

  The Judo players weren't playing.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  No, they were not.

• 34:41Jocko Willink?

  "In my third year at school, I was challenged by K." The name of the student is kept secret in the book. "Who was then considered to be the number one street fighter among all the junior high school students in the area." He was a student of Kumamoto Commerce Junior High. He was small in stature, but was known to pull out a knife in every street fight. It was known that when he loses, his parents and relatives all joined him and ambushed for revenge. On my way back, I was about to cross the bridge. He found me and said, "Hold it right there. Come with me." We walked to a park near Sunset. He said, "You are Kimura, aren't you?"

• 35:23Jocko Willink?

  This was the first time that we saw each other face to face. We glared at each other over a distance of about one meter. Then suddenly he pulled out a Tonto, which is a freaking short sword, and thrust it forward at me. I evaded it, grabbed him, and threw him hard onto the ground. Now, in this state, he is no match to me. "I am K. I surrender. You are strong." He honestly revealed his identity and apologized. After this, none of his parents came to see me. Moreover, no junior high school student challenged me for a street fight. Yeah, dude, when you get a sword pulled on you and you just jack the dude, you're not worried about getting picked on anymore.

• 36:06Jocko Willink?

  In the fall of 1934, um, he's now going to university. Takushoku. Again, I apologize to my Japanese people out there for mutilating your language. Um, he's going to college now. Kimura defeated eight consecutive opponents, lost his ninth match. Although Kimura smoked, as did many Japanese men, he reported he was an excellent long-distance runner. During his college years, Kimura said in a 1987 interview, "He trained 10 and a half hours a day. He would begin by striking the makiwara," which is like a striking post, a thing that you punch. You seen those things?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  The one with the rope around it?

• 36:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think it's the one with the rope around it. "1,000 times with each fist, a training method he had learned from studying karate. Then he would head off to the police department dojo where he would work out with other tough judoka for about an hour. A three-hour training session at Takudai followed. Then from 6:30 to about 7:30 PM, he would train at the Kodakon, followed by a three-hour session at a local judo dojo near the campus. But that was not the end of his day. After I went home at 8, I would, I would take a bath and then do solo training. First, 1,000 push-ups, then bodybuilding, 600 bench presses with 80 kg." It's 175 pounds roughly. Barbells. Just that would take about an hour.

• 37:34Jocko Willink?

  So he's going, that's a savage workout.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yes, it is.

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I, I'm thinking about doing that.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:40Jocko Willink?

  I'm thinking about getting into like dude, 600 reps. That's crazy.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  That actually kind of sounds like your kind of workout. You know how like you, you're, you, I don't know. You told me this couple of times, few times where you, I was like, oh, what was the workout? You'd be like, oh yeah, pull ups today. And I'll say, bro, what does that mean? Like mine is like four sets of five or five sets of 12. You're like, yeah, pull ups today. How many doing like, I don't know, thousands of pull ups, but it's like over time, right? Like you just see how, and that's what that sounds like where it's like, yeah, 80, 80 kilograms, I'm gonna do 600.

• 38:09Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I'll be honest with you. I don't like benching cause, cause it, I don't like the way it feels on my shoulder. So maybe I'll have to figure out, maybe there's a dumbbell equivalent or something.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Maybe, hell yeah, dumbbells all day. So benching, bench is a good one. I feel, I feel like, I don't know for sure, but I feel like Arnold kind of was like one of the main like proponents of bench. So it kind of got like a thing, but then again, I know there's like bench before.

• 38:32Jocko Willink?

  There was a guy when I got to the team and he was an older dude, you know? Which means he was probably a little bit younger than me right now, but he seemed a little old at the time, but he was, he worked in the paraloft, which is where they did pack parachutes and stuff. And I think he was kind of, you know, finishing up his, uh, finishing up his career. But he would allegedly, he would just like pack a parachute. Like do, do, like, let's say it takes 20 minutes to pack a parachute. He pack a parachute for five minutes, get like to a certain step. And then just go Jack Steel for 15 minutes or 10 minutes and come back and do a little bit more. And he would just basically lift all day long.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  That's the kind of thing where I think that'd be real good for you.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, all this, so I learned this phrase when I was kind of getting certified to be a personal trainer back in the day.

• 39:25Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I kind of forgot about that whole thing. Time under tension?

• 39:28Speaker 01

  No, um.

• 39:29Jocko Willink?

  Cause you've, you've quoted that one to me before.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that one goes deep by the way. So some people, they think like, oh, let's just put a lot of tension on there or sorry, a lot of time under tension, but that's pretty low tension. If the time is going to be, anyway, no, it's not that. It's, um, it was in regards to, you know, in the, there's a, I don't know. You don't go to public gyms. So in public gyms, this is a thing.

• 39:52Jocko Willink?

  I've been to public gyms.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So well, okay.

• 39:55Jocko Willink?

  Believe it or not.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  There you go. But you'll be less familiar with this, um, this event, this occurrence. Where someone will see someone doing something quote unquote wrong. Right? And then they'll go and they'll correct them, correct them or give them tips or whatever.

• 40:07Jocko Willink?

  Unwanted advice.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Advice, exactly.

• 40:09Jocko Willink?

  Unsolicited advice.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Unsolicited. So, you know, some guys, they do it to girls to maybe just get an in to talk to them or whatever. There's many different reasons for it. But the main, one of the main like problems that would come from that sometimes is like when you ask someone like, hey, or when you tell someone, hey, no, you're doing it wrong. Here's the right way to do it. No matter how nice you say it, the thing you're missing is what are they training for? So really, one of the things you have to understand is you have to know what the person is training for to be able to determine if they're doing it right or wrong. For the most part, there are exceptions, but.

• 40:39Jocko Willink?

  Are you training to blow out your back?

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Hey man, like I said, like, and there are so many times where even as a professional trainer for decades or whatever, you find out what they're training for and you're like, oh, wait a minute, that makes a lot more sense. I don't know about that kind of training. That's like some fitness routine and or or competition or whatever you're doing is that I'm unfamiliar with and you have to admit that obviously. So you can be surprised with that stuff where you're thinking that violates every rule that I've ever learned ever in a certification course or outside of certification course that violates it. You go find out what they're training for. You're like, I never heard of that. So I I have nothing to input on your training, you know? Anyway, um, so you gotta, like I said, back to the point, you gotta find out what they're training for. So you know how you say, you just said, that sounds like it'd be good for you?

• 41:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 41:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, if you're gonna be getting in forty minute judo matches and you can bench press that takes you an hour. I mean, if he said that took about an hour. Dude, that's a lot. That's ten reps a minute.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:41Jocko Willink?

  For an hour.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's, um.

• 41:43Jocko Willink?

  That's a freaking tough workout, man.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  So the, cause there's certain physiological and biological like things that go on in your body if you train certain ways, you know? So, um, and Bulgarian, if you look into the Bulgarian.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  That's crazy. So they they do stuff like, um, they just max out. It'd be like an eight hour training sesh. All max out, but they'd max out like at a certain time, you know? So the reps, the volume would be like kind of small, but the intensity would be just the highest.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  Hitting doubles and singles.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And there's all kinds of ways to do that. So like I said, it depends on what you're training for, depends on the approach, because there are many ways to get that to that goal, depends on the person, depends on like what kind of training.

• 42:26Jocko Willink?

  Regardless of everything that you're saying right now.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 42:30Jocko Willink?

  Let's face it, if you can bench press 185 pounds 600 times in an hour, let's face it, regardless of whatever you're saying, you're in pretty good shape.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  That's a good training session.

• 42:42Jocko Willink?

  Good training session.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  So, and then, but then, but, think about this, and you know, and I'm not just being a contrarian at all, but it's something to think about, where bench, dumbbell press, whatever, that's usually for like powerlifting or bodybuilding.

• 42:56Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  So, if you're training for like, to be able to endure some punishment and still have your muscles and joints function, so that's why you're doing that training, I can see it, for sure, but it goes about, it goes beyond like bodybuilding. Because he said bodybuilding, but it goes, it's not the best way to do bodybuilding.

• 43:14Jocko Willink?

  Maybe he means bodybuilding, not in the way that you're thinking. He doesn't mean bodybuilding like, I'm gonna be on the cover of a magazine, he means I'm building my body for war.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're correct about that.

• 43:29Jocko Willink?

  He then goes, going back to the book, this is him talking about his training routine, then, uchi komi, which is practicing throwing without a partner, against a maple tree a thousand times. I would wrap a judo belt around a very thick maple tree, but doing that a thousand times a day, the trees would snap rather quickly, it was really expensive. Then I would take out a rope and do the osotogari training. So this guy is training like a madman, Kimura told the same interviewer that he slept only about two hours a night, feeling that sleep was a waste of time. No wonder he trained, and no wonder he gained a reputation as the training ogre, or training demon.

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, he ended up having some losses.

• 44:23Jocko Willink?

  One time a guy named Osawa Kenichiro.

• 44:28Jocko Willink?

  Threw Kimura headfirst onto the mat, gave him a concussion. Despite his concussion, he fought another match, this time against Abe Kenshiro. Abe was another judo prodigy. Uh, youngest ever in some of his advancements and he lost, or he also beat Kimura.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  Had another lost by Yamamoto Hideo.

• 44:56Jocko Willink?

  So he had some losses. And of course, it says this in the book, "Kimura was extremely upset by the unusual experience of losing and reportedly considered quitting judo for a time." Oh, that's that day when you go to the jujitsu mats and you think, man, this isn't for me. That's actually, that's actually a, a overused joke of mine. You know, like if I have a rough day on the mat, like, man, I walked out of here yesterday, I was thinking, maybe I just need to give up jujitsu. You know, that's what I was thinking, yeah.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's how though, right? Remember like how you, did you have a word for, I think you might be talking about something else, but got the guys in the teams who were there like so good at stumps, something and they've never lost and they don't really lose. So when they lose, it devastates them way worse than the average guy.

• 45:39Jocko Willink?

  This isn't the SEAL team, this is going through buds. Yeah, like a guy going through buds who's a gazelle.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Gazelle, gazelle.

• 45:44Jocko Willink?

  Meaning they always win. They won everything their whole life. They're never lost anything and then they just, yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  It's devastating.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they can't handle it. Can't handle the pressure.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Uh oh. So is that, you feel like there was some gazelle-like qualities in that scenario for, um, for Kimura?

• 45:59Jocko Willink?

  Nope, I don't think so. I think that he had won a bunch. Yeah, okay, a little bit.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  That was like a Jaco kind of tendency.

• 46:06Jocko Willink?

  That was like a little like.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  What were you saying about squats where you're like, I think it's what the 20 rep squats?

• 46:13Jocko Willink?

  I don't even want to be strong. I don't even know if I want to be strong. This isn't worth it. I'd rather just be weak. Just get me out of here.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Just cause like the 20 rep squats, the squats are so daunting. You're like questioning your whole, uh, strength existence.

• 46:25Jocko Willink?

  Those, those squats, when you do those 20 rep squats for real, when you do them for real, they're, they're, they're a. A journey, a mental journey. Now, we've had people on the podcast talking about their psychedelic journeys with like ayahuasca and all this stuff and they're screaming and crying and like their insides are burning and all this stuff. If you do 20 rep squats correctly, same thing, bro.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Do you just do one giant set or or one like hard set or is it like like two, three? How many sets do you do with 20?

• 46:56Jocko Willink?

  When I was really into that, I I have this where it's actually in the book, Discipline Equals Freedom, Field Manual.

• 47:04Jocko Willink?

  I I haven't done this in a long time and I would need to like change my lifestyle a little bit again and get back in the game on that particular game. So I used to do warm up and then I would do 20 rep squat, 20 minute break, 20 minute squat or 20 rep squat, 20 minute break, 20 rep squat. So it'd take one hour and it would be 20 minutes of recovery.

• 47:32Jocko Willink?

  It was horrible. It was so, I would, by the time I got done, like I would take, you know, get done, go for a jog to try and move some of the lactic acid and by the time I got done, I would be thinking like I have to do this again in a, in whatever it is, five days and I'd be like upset about it. And not one, I'd be thinking, maybe I should get into crochet. Maybe I should get into like some other thing.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  What's funny about that, I can relate a hundred percent by the way, but what's funny about that, especially when you're like fricking like you're so mad that you have to do it. Meanwhile, it's your workout. You made it up. You don't have to do anything, you know, but it's like you're so like connected to the workout. It's like 20 rep squats. If you only got 19 reps, like you'll probably be mentally kind of jammed up for a little bit.

• 48:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Where, but I have that too. That's weird. The, and this is fresh in my mind about the 20 rep squat. So I've never done the 20 rep squats. Like that, I've done 20 reps of squat before, of course.

• 48:23Jocko Willink?

  With a weight that you can only do 10.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, like as the workout, I've done 15 and actually did 15 today, but here's the thing, it's not, it's different. So I did my regular squat routine and then I just put a lightweight on there and I did 15, but this is at the end and I I try to keep my rest to kind of a minimum. So I'm like, kind of like jammed up. So I was like, let me bust out 15 real quick. My legs are burning right now. They're weaker. You know, you're like weaker. And I went and my usual higher rep is 12. That's my usual higher rep day. So, once I hit the 12, I could just feel my body ju- like strength just drop off at 13. Yeah, like almost like physiologically, it thought it was done, like for real. So, at 13, it was like boom, almost like the thing got so heavy all of a sudden.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Then I did 14 and then like the 15th, it was kind of that, like I said, that almost like an outer body experience. Kind of like, hey, your legs kind of don't really work anymore. Look, it was lighter weight, so I get it, but I could feel the little hints of this where like your legs don't work anymore. Like, hey, like your legs are saying, hey, we're not supposed to be doing this and they check out. So you're just like using your whole brain to get like the rep or whatever. I'm like, dang, what if I had to do 20 of those things? Even with that weight right there, bro, I think, I think that might take me off to a distant land.

• 49:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  You gotta get used to that.

• 49:39Jocko Willink?

  You do, you do.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  I saw freaking, uh, Josh Hinger, right? You know who that is, right? Josh Hinger, he's a, he trains at Otto's, he was Keenan's guy.

• 49:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he, it was like just a video clip that he posted or whatever. He was like, oh yeah, I'm finishing out the, my leg workout with a set of 20 and it was two wheels, two 25. And he did all 20 and I was like, bro, and he's smaller than me. I was like, bro, you got me beat by a lot, Wayne. That is some shit.

• 50:09Jocko Willink?

  So, that being said, we're talking about this quitter's mindset that can come in and it came to Kimura. And he, he lost a few times, lost four times and he says, maybe I should just quit. But then, going back to the book, his competitive personality and the encouragement of several friends led him to rededicate himself. He's to train even harder. At the university, he trained to increase his strength by carrying around a 132 pound bag of sand.

• 50:41Jocko Willink?

  He said, "I thought practicing twice as much as others would be sufficient since I heard others were practicing about three hours a day. In reality, however, they had been practicing about four hours a day, which I found out later."

• 50:56Jocko Willink?

  He gets revenge. There's a section called revenge. Osawa Kenjiru Okanishiro, one of those who had defeated Kimura in competition regularly trained at the Keishu Police Dojo and Kimura exacted his revenge on Osawa there, throwing him for ippon.

• 51:18Jocko Willink?

  Abe Kenjiru was more difficult to catch up with because their paths seldom crossed, but Kimura caught wind of the fact that Abe was going to be training at the Kotokan on a certain day and showed up to challenge him. The 500 mat dojo was silent except for the two judoka. During the 20-minute practice Abe was thrown many times. Kimura threw Abe to the hardwood floor, presumably off the edge of the mat, 11 times and 6 times to the tatami. Disgusted, Abe eventually quit. At the time, Kimura was still a college student while Abe had graduated and was a professional instructor.

• 52:00Jocko Willink?

  So, he got his little vengeance. Those were in the training hall, but it sounds like if you're in the training hall and everyone stops and watches you, you know what I mean? Like, it's one thing like, oh, let's say you and I had, you know, you'd beat me in a tournament and then I went to your academy and I beat you, or you came to my, or whatever, we met at a neutral academy just in a training session, like an open mat.

• 52:21Jocko Willink?

  And then I beat you, I wouldn't feel like I really got my vengeance. But if everybody stopped and they were watching and then I threw you 11 times onto the hardwood?

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:31Jocko Willink?

  I'd be like, yeah, you know what's up now.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:33Jocko Willink?

  There's a little bit of revenge.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And especially, and that's a good point too, when everyone stops and watches, right? Where, I mean, there's a few subtle elements that are sometimes, most of the time, like, they're intangible, only the two people.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  That are competing or practicing feel it where you know like when things escalate and you feel the sense of training start to diminish and the sense of competition really take over you know like we all had that before come on so with a scenario like this where it's like hey you beat me in the tournament and then you start feeling that bubble up and then people start watching that's when you know that's like hundred percent like hey this is no longer training this is it's on this is the rematch going on right now I feel like that's the case okay you don't feel that way

• 53:14Jocko Willink?

  No, I think you're right. I think when you have a bunch of when you have a 500 mat that's a huge dojo it's a Kodak and it's a massive place and everyone's watching

• 53:22Speaker 01

  You feel that escalating you're getting smashed like however many times in a row

• 53:26Jocko Willink?

  Imagine being that much of a champion like Abe was and somebody comes and just beat you whatever 17 times that's humiliation

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's rough. That's real rough.

• 53:42Jocko Willink?

  In the fall of 1937 Kimura repeated his victory as all Japan collegiate champion in the biannual tournament winning six matches three with a Sotogari one with Eppon one with his increasingly famous arm lock and one by pin as a result of this win Kimura became the first student permitted to enter the all Japan judo championship held October 23rd and 24th 1937 in the finals he goes against a guy Nakajima Mazzayuki who's a fifth Don he got these there's a really good and hey I'm just reading little excerpts of this book

• 54:23Jocko Willink?

  obviously get the book get the book Christopher M Clark I don't think I mentioned his name yet but that's the book it's Christopher M Clark who wrote the book get the book it's on Amazon I'm only reading some highlights from it so if you want the details get it but he goes into a pretty good description of how he of this competition but uh let me let me take you through what he says he says after

• 54:56Jocko Willink?

  After the 30 minute battle, both my skin and gi were soaked with sweat. Sweat was dripping in so much quantity that I could hardly open my eyes. I had to open my eyes alternately to see. Before the next overtime, I and Nakajima sat to bring our gi to the proper position. I tried to untie the belt, but I could not generate enough force in my hands to do so. The knot felt as hard as a stone. My fingers were almost completely powerless, so that it took me a long time to fix the gi.

• 55:36Jocko Willink?

  Then I saw Nakajima extend his legs alternately, rub his calves with his hands. I thought, those legs are the key for my victory. I retitoned my black belt and watched his motion carefully. As soon as the judge announced start, I tackled at his legs. He fell on his buttocks. I then caught him, thinking, I could never win if I lost this chance, and frantically held him pinned. The intense battle, which lasted 40 minutes, finally ended. So, that's kind of crazy.

• 56:19Jocko Willink?

  There's another, in preparing for that match,

• 56:25Jocko Willink?

  and I read an interview with him as well, but he has like a, basically, it's a near-death experience that he has. It says this in the book, "Kimura constantly pushed himself to find his limits. In 1936, while training for the national championships, he had what he called 'a mysterious experience in which I truly discarded my life.'"

• 56:47Jocko Willink?

  So he goes to this other dojo and they actually had an actually Mihon I were talking about this. Mihon pointed out that they have something called de dekago which is practice outside one's regular dojo. Which is really smart. It's really smart, not just to only look, it's good to have, it's great to have a great school that you train at. But it's also good to go and try other, go to other gyms. And this is for anything, you know, in the SEAL teams, like when I ran training, we had Rangers that came and worked with us. We had special forces guys that came, hey, how do you guys do it? We would send guys to their schools. Why? Because we want to practice outside of our own dojo. We want to get the other look.

• 57:29Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's kind of a term that gets used these days. Get another look. So that's actually how I met Mihawk, because Mihawk was coming, you know, some of the guys from Legion come down here, you know, like let's mix it up. You know, on an open mat day at Victory, there's people from every, basically every academy in Southern California, really. So that's a good plan. So that's what Kimura does in this particular instance. And he says, I went to train and there were about 82 students there. All of whom who were under, who had been undergoing strenuous training. They were strong back then. We were, we're talking about an instructor's college.

• 58:11Jocko Willink?

  I said, and he asked, a polite way of asking the trainees to engage in practice, I'm not going to try and use the Japanese because they have it in here. And stepped down to the dojo. So he basically says, hey, who wants to train? And he says it in a friendly way. And he stepped in for a type of training that's called continuous attack practice. Which to me, kind of sounds like what we might call a shark tank, son. He says, I had won the student championship, so when I threw one of them, the next would charge at me. And I tried to hang on and go all out to throw him. I thought that even if I went to my knees, I would get the ippon. I'd do about five minutes with one person for around 70 people.

• 58:53Jocko Willink?

  At some point, I began to feel faint and when I braced myself against it, I lost consciousness and fell forward. However, my body was moving. Even though I lost consciousness, the offense and defensive techniques kept on fighting for me. I don't know where I went then. When I looked, about fifteen students of the instructors college were gathered together, looking at something in one corner of the dojo. I wondered what they were doing while I was training. And when I glanced over, I saw somebody stretched out on the floor. When I looked down from above, I said, "Hey, isn't that me?" When I looked at my face stretched out on the floor, it looked calm and peaceful. I was smiling as I slept. I felt that this

• 59:38Jocko Willink?

  was a really good way to sleep. So strenuous was the practice that even Kimura felt he was dying. Heart beating so fast, he thought his heart was going to explode. However, he held on and gradually regained his strength and mental power back through this experience. He realized that no matter how exhausted he would eventually regain his power back, this belief was one of the reasons for Kimura's unbelievable victories. Taking it to the limit, as we like to say. Having out of body experience. He's on the ayahuasca DMT freaking Kimura Jiu Jitsu. Man,

• 1:00:19Jocko Willink?

  it feels so good when that happens. Look, I haven't, I don't, other than being knocked out or choked out unconscious in both those categories, where you have an out of body experience, which I've definitely had both those. But to push yourself in that hard in training, like I've never done that, but every time you go hard in training, man, you feel good when you're done. And there's something, there's something about Jiu Jitsu, I must say. That's better than normal. Like, let's say you and I were like, hey, let's go do a sprint workout. Let's go do a Metcon. Like, let's do something that's so super hardcore. That doesn't feel the same. There's not the same goodness.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Jocko Willink?

  Am I wrong?

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  You're, uh, you're really right, actually. So, and, uh, oddly and coincidentally, recently, this was part of my, like, rabbit hole thought process as well. Like, why is that, right? Where it's like, oh, okay, you could say, and which I think I would agree with, where it's like, when you're kind of, especially as a male, um, human being, you, you battling against like another male is like, kind of like, there's a, a payoff on top of the payoff with that kind of exercise or whatever. Sure. I think that's true.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  But after a while, I was thinking like, hey, I think, I think it's this. I think like, you know how like you,

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  when you're really good friends with someone, and it's kind of like, oh, I could be doing this thing, but if my friend was here with me, we could do it together. And we could like, share in the fun times and whatever. And then when you think of that long term, when you have like a really good friend, you share in the fun times, and the junk times, then you come back to normal and you can go, you can, hey, remember that time where this thing, and it really sucked, and we, but you guys went through it together.

• 1:02:00Jocko Willink?

  Shared suffering.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  This shared suffering. Exactly right. So, now you have a combination of, and I think some, some, in some weird way, I feel like this is kind of, part of the purpose of life, I think. Where you have that shared suffering, and it's concentrated. It's really concentrated. Shared suffering, shared joy, exercise and everything that that comes with, because it's not like normal exercise. Think about like how hard 10 rounds is. Because we did 10 rounds earlier, I only did eight, but nonetheless, eight is still, you know.

• 1:02:32Jocko Willink?

  Something.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Think, think how hard that is as far as output goes. Like, if you had one of those monitors or whatever. Like, think about it. Like, to replicate a workout like that, within that amount of time, which is like, you know, you figure there are five minute rounds, what, 45, I don't know how long in between, but you consider the whole timeframe.

• 1:02:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  And then the output. That is a hard workout.

• 1:02:53Jocko Willink?

  Then you know what else is cool, is you get done with a jujitsu workout.

• 1:02:59Jocko Willink?

  You know that no matter what level you're at, even if you're a white belt and you're on your third month and you train hard, you know, you know, that you can now be

• 1:03:14Jocko Willink?

  basically anyone that wasn't in there with you that day. You know what I mean? Like, okay, excluding other Jiu Jitsu people, obviously, because you're only a white belt, you only been training for three months. But that's a small number when you talk about the population of Earth.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Jocko Willink?

  So you get, you get that thing where you're like, like even the other day, okay, we did a bunch of rounds with a bunch of really good people. Just being there on that map means that there's most people on planet Earth you can actually take.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Right. They were not on that.

• 1:03:41Jocko Willink?

  They were not on that map.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And yeah, and that, yeah, that goes with like, kind of what I was saying earlier, where like, you know, like that, just what that entails and what that kind of delivers to you. That's part of like the whole joy of like, especially afterwards when everything is settled, right? That's one of the things that got delivered to you. But the part where you kind of connect with another guy in that, in that way where like me and you were straight up going to battle. It's a proxy for a battle, but we did like, as far as our brains are concerned, we kind of did. So we had the shared suffering and we had all that stuff. And then we opposed each other. And at the end, we sort of made up, right? We're no longer enemies anymore. And let's face it, when you, when you battle with a guy super hard, like in, like in real life, like you hate each other or whatever as a kid and you hate each other.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  And then at the end of the day, you're kind of like, wait a second, we're kind of the same. And then you become friends with them. I feel like that's kind of a natural part of existence as well. So I think you get a, some kind of a payoff. Deep down, I think you get some sort of a payoff, generally speaking with that rule, right? So I feel like all of those elements all mixed together in one experience, the Jiu Jitsu experience. I think that's why it feels so good.

• 1:04:47Jocko Willink?

  There's a weird dichotomy. So the, when in Ramadi, we worked with this battalion of soldiers called the first of the 506 Red Curry.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  I hear good.

• 1:04:58Jocko Willink?

  Band of brothers, best, you know, awesome guys. And they had a little saying that was, we stand alone together.

• 1:05:11Jocko Willink?

  So that's kind of what happens when you're Jiu Jitsu, like you, you're alone together.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Jocko Willink?

  So kind of a cool thing.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  And you, um.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Think about when you roll with a guy who you've never met before. And you roll with him and you guys have a solid sick room. No matter who gets who or who doesn't retire or what, it doesn't matter the outcome, but you have a sick role with them. You kind of feel connected to him.

• 1:05:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  You see that guy the next week, like at the store.

• 1:05:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Bro, you're way better friends than if he was in your class in college or something like that.

• 1:05:39Jocko Willink?

  You hand getting groceries out to the car and whatnot.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  Well, frick, you guys are kind of friends. Like you jump levels in the relationship with one role.

• 1:05:51Jocko Willink?

  So he wins this national championship, right? He's the all Japan national champion. He says he couldn't sleep for excitement.

• 1:06:03Jocko Willink?

  Despite exhausting two days of competition, he did 500 pushups and a kilometer of bunny hops.

• 1:06:10Jocko Willink?

  But Kimura still didn't sleep well. As he laid down in bed, he said to himself, today's victory was a fluke. I had more stamina than Nakajima, simply because I'm younger than he is. Could I beat him again? Probably not. I would lose next time.

• 1:06:28Jocko Willink?

  This is like obsession level.

• 1:06:32Jocko Willink?

  Before the tournament, Kimura's goal had been merely to win the national championship. Now, however, he decided he wanted to remain undefeated champion for 10 years.

• 1:06:43Jocko Willink?

  He realized that to accomplish this goal, he would have to redouble his efforts and train harder than anyone else possibly could. Mulling over his goal, he finally came up with what he called triple effort training regimes. As he later told it, I am the champion, others would start to train six hours a day to beat me. I could not beat them as long as I trained

• 1:07:05Jocko Willink?

  as hard as others. If my opponents train twice as hard as others, then I will train three times as hard as others. I.e. nine hours a day. This way I would gain an extra three hours a day and I will do this every day. The accumulation of these extra hours will become my flesh and blood. That is my skills and my mental power. That's what he's doing. Wins the national championship and realizes he's going to train three times harder than anybody else. All this physical activity gave Kimura a monstrous appetite. The 91, the 1937 championships, he reportedly celebrated by eating 13 bowls of rice. During his prime, he ate 7 to 8 bowls of rice in the morning, 12 bowls of rice in the evening,

• 1:07:49Jocko Willink?

  plus some fish such as red snapper and iwasashi, which is sardines. This dude's grubbing down.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Fishing rice.

• 1:08:00Jocko Willink?

  Kimura's principal coach during his prime competing years was Ushijima Tatsukuma. Ushijima's teaching was as ferocious as his own training. According to Hirano, training under Ushijima was hell training. A class consisted of five minutes of warmups, followed by three to four hours of nothing but continuous noaza, which is interesting to hear. Noaza is what we do in jiu jitsu is just rolling, basically. It was considered disgraceful to tap out and surrender when being choked. So at any time, four or five students were likely to be lying unconscious on the tatami as others continued to practice around them.

• 1:08:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Mihai and I were laughing about that one. Like, there's just bodies, dude. There's just bodies on the mat, you know? And hey, five-minute warmup, then four hours of noaza, four hours of training. I like that. Ushijima's teaching was tough, was as tough psychologically as it was physically. His motto reportedly was, "Attack till your heart stops beating." He had no patience for self-congratulations or excuses after Kimura won eight matches in a row and received his godan at the 1934 Kodokan competition. He went back to Ushijima to proudly show his accomplishments.

• 1:09:26Jocko Willink?

  Rather than praise him for his victories, however, Ushijima slapped his face repeatedly, telling him that competition is equivalent to a real sword.

• 1:09:38Jocko Willink?

  Kill or get killed duel between bushi warriors to throw an opponent means to kill him being thrown means being killed you killed eight men you got killed by the ninth man remember if you devote your life to judo you can only survive by throwing your opponents or fighting to a draw no matter how many tough opponents you face so ferocious was ushijima's desire to win that in one famous match he won a tournament because he he will because in the end he was able to secure his opponent while controlling him using his jaws and teeth to hold him by the belt

• 1:10:14Jocko Willink?

  that was the true spirit of jujitsu judo that ushijima and kimura lived by as historian john stevens recounts the style ushijima had trained in was quote extreme there was no such thing as a draw the match went on until one of the competitors gave up or died

• 1:10:33Jocko Willink?

  some matches were fought with a wooden dagger kept in one's belt if you pinned your opponent you could mimic cutting off his head with the dagger ushijima's judo was the same attack attack attack ushijima visited every dojo he could find to engage anyone who was willing to in willing in randori and spent much of his nights lifting heavy boulders and striking trees with his hands to bear to build strength the night before a match he drank turtle's blood on the morning of the match he ate powder made from the body of a poison adder he would seclude himself in a cave for a week doing zazen and reading musashi's book of five rings he nearly trained himself to death developing a life-threatening viral infection that ended his career ushijima

• 1:11:18Jocko Willink?

  retired from competition in 1934 thereafter devoting himself to making kimura's the world's top fighter

• 1:11:27Jocko Willink?

  so there you go I mean no slack

• 1:11:34Jocko Willink?

  uh having overcome his four losses and adopting a ferocious a ferocious training program kimura went on to win tournament after tournament he's the champion from 1938 to 1941

• 1:11:52Jocko Willink?

  Talking about that triple effort training, soon after Kimura started his triple effort training rumors began to circulate about how his rivals were stepping up in their training, and this is what Kimura has to say. "Initially, I listened to this information with confidence, thinking, 'I will never lose since I've been training more than nine hours a day.' However, after a while, I started to doubt my self-confidence. In those days, I was interested in Zen. I wanted to reach the state of no ego, discover secret judo techniques, and throw around tough opponents using the techniques. But in reality, I missed a chance to go to a Zen temple, one after another. That is because it was evident that I would lose my precious time for training by doing so. After all, humans are weak. When they get sick or get into trouble, they depend on God. I was no exception.

• 1:12:37Jocko Willink?

  I meditated trying to reach the state of no ego. I first struggled to reach the state of no ego, but I soon lost the force for struggling and forgot about tomorrow's bout and the fact that I was sitting. Soon after reaching this state, the character 'win' appeared in my mind." Actually, it says "appeared on my mind." "But the character soon got superimposed on the character of 'loss.' However, my mind was already empty. I did not make any effort to get the character of 'win.' I don't know how much time has elapsed since I started to sit. Suddenly, my whole body became hot, as if somebody poured boiling water over me from the top of my head and my body started to tremble.

• 1:13:19Jocko Willink?

  Then I noticed the character of 'win' was shining at the center of my forehead, as if it'd been waiting for me to notice its appearance. I will win tomorrow's bouts. I was convinced of my victory with pleasure. I believe that it was a message from God that can only be given to those who push to the maximum limit of mental and physical strength and get to the broader, get to the border between life and death. If I had pursued only pleasure, I would have seen the character of 'loss.'" God sides with only those who challenge a difficult task despite the possibility of death. Even though I had wished, even though I, even though I had no special belief in any

• 1:14:03Jocko Willink?

  religion, it was my interpretation of the existence of God.

• 1:14:09Jocko Willink?

  I then calmed down from my joyful feeling of victory, turned on the light of the room, and prayed for the protection from various gods. I also prayed to the ancestors of the Kimura family. Centuries ago, it is said that Musashi Miyamoto, who was called the greatest sword master in history, visited a shrine before his battle with the Yoshika family and tried to pull a bell uttering, "God, please protect me", but regained his calmness and did not ring the bell. "I do not count on gods", it was his motto. I thought, "If I had lived the same era of Musashi, pursued the way of the sword, and even fought Musashi, I would never lose.

• 1:14:53Jocko Willink?

  At worst, the fight would go even."

• 1:14:58Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Some meditation going on.

• 1:15:03Jocko Willink?

  Digging deep.

• 1:15:07Jocko Willink?

  Here's a little section I had to talk about because Echo Charles. It's called "Kimura: Weightlifter Ahead of His Time."

• 1:15:14Jocko Willink?

  "Few Japanese martial artists in the first half of the 20th century engaged in systematic strength or weightlifting training. Some utilized old-school methods, such as Kimura's carrying around a bag of heavy sand. It was not until the late 1950s and early 1960s, when American martial artist Don Drager began to introduce Western weightlifting and strength training methods that such exercises became commonplace among judoka." Kimura was decades ahead of this time, however. As early as his college years in the mid-1930s, Kimura had became a devoted weightlifter, a method that contributed significantly to his ability to overpower his opponents, albeit with excellent technique.

• 1:15:58Jocko Willink?

  In his prime, Kimura did hundreds of push-ups and other strength exercises, but he supplemented them with bench presses, overhead presses, and other weight training exercises. Although the photo on the next page shows him benching a substantial amount, apparently more than 300 pounds, he mostly focused on high repetitions with moderate weight. According to his own account, he would perform 500 to 600 repetitions at bench with 175 pounds, an astonishing feat of endurance and strength. So this is like, you know, kind of his gig.

• 1:16:29Jocko Willink?

  Amazingly, Kimura had, Kimura made all the foregoing accomplishments before graduating from college. That's incredible. But while he was attending Takudai and tearing, and tearing up the Judo Totami, the broader world was closing in. Since 1937, Japan had been engaged in a near full-scale war with China, and many of Japan's young men were being drafted into service. After Kimura's graduation in March 1941, he was kept on as an assistant martial arts department of Takudai as a judo teacher. He worked in that capacity until November, when he resigned and took two months to go home before his military induction

• 1:17:09Jocko Willink?

  in January 1942. Entering the Amkai Air Defense Unit on January 1, 1942, Kimura apparently was involved in defending Japan's southern sector. He recounts a fascinating story, incident that may have indirectly saved his life. And he says this, "One day, there was an announcement that a master of Jukendo was to come to our unit. His name was Y." Note, the name is kept anonymous. "Who was regarded as the number one in Japan and was eighth Don. All the members in the unit got together in the field at 1:00 PM to receive instruction from Mr. Y. He explained the basics of thrust and defense. He then looked

• 1:17:52Jocko Willink?

  around us and said, 'Any volunteer for practice with me, come forward without any reservation.' But nobody came forward. 'If I engaged in a match with such a master, I would get humiliated or could get killed,' men around me whispered. Suddenly, the captain called my name. Now I cannot retreat. I walked up to the master slowly, as slowly as possible to buy time and come up with a workable strategy. If I engage in a bayonet combat..." There's no way I can win. If I would, it would be like a fight between an adult and a child since I had never held a wooden gun in my life. We bowed to each other and held the wooden gun toward each other.

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  I tensed up. The instructor said, thrust, thrust. Come on, what's the matter? I knew I would lose as soon as I thrust the gun at him. So I waited for the right moment for attack. I fainted a thrust, then threw the wooden gun at his face with full force. At the moment he deflected the wooden gun, I attacked at his knees. He fell to the ground. I mounted the chest, removed his face guard despite his shouting, wait, wait, and tried to deliver finishing blow to his face. Stop, stop, it's over. The captain stepped in and separated us, but it was clear that I had won the fight. The master looked as if he had not understand what had happened to him, dropped his head and left the scene. There's a classic.

• 1:19:14Jocko Willink?

  Just left the scene. And that's a classic. You ever done that before?

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:19:17Jocko Willink?

  Like, you know, somebody's got a stick, somebody's got a, you know, someone's got something, they're gonna, they're gonna fight you? And you just close the distance?

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  No, I don't think, no.

• 1:19:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's one of those things where.

• 1:19:32Jocko Willink?

  It's one of those, hey, you know, the Dog Brothers, right?

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So the Dog Brothers, the Dog Brothers, nothing but awesomeness. Like, these guys were up in the LA area. I don't know what they're doing right now. I'll have to look into it. But the Dog Brothers would do weapons fighting. Like, go check out their YouTube videos of Dog Brothers. The Dog Brothers would fight with weapons. They'd fight with sticks. Primarily it started with sticks, but then you see people in there with chains and with all kinds of crazy stuff. And they'd wear like a Kempo helmet usually. And maybe they'd wear lacrosse gloves. So you wouldn't get like broken fingers, which we talked about. But other than that, it was on. So you'd have, you'd have two guys with sticks

• 1:20:17Jocko Willink?

  or staffs or nunchucks like legit, and they would fight each other.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:22Jocko Willink?

  Chains, like it's mayhem.

• 1:20:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's some videos where people are jiu-jitsu guys. And what the jiu-jitsu guys would do is kind of what this says. Just, you know, throw a stick at him and then just bum rush him and close the distance. Cause once you're on somebody, their, their striking isn't gonna work anymore. So that's, this is a good plan. If you're, if you're a grappler, you don't wanna, you don't wanna fight someone, you know, with a bayonet that's trained with bayonet. You don't wanna fight a boxer that's trained in boxing. You don't wanna train a Muay Thai guy that's trained in Muay Thai. You wanna close the distance, you wanna get close to them so their striking doesn't work or run away.

• 1:21:01Jocko Willink?

  But that's what Kimura did.

• 1:21:04Jocko Willink?

  Needless to say, Kimura was, was sure he was going to catch hell from the captain. This is after the guy ran away, but the effect was quite the opposite. Not long afterward, an announcement was made that those who wish to be sent to combat should see the captain. Kimura volunteered and was given a five day leave to visit his parents. When he returned, he reported to the captain who said, "I have known about your achievements in judo. I like judo too and often practice in a koto-kon. Compared with you, I must be like a kid, but I still got the fourth don." He poured whiskey into a glass and continued, "The match you did with the Jukendo, Jukendo master was very interesting. First, nobody stepped forward.

• 1:21:46Jocko Willink?

  I knew nobody had a chance against him since he was the best master in the country. But if nobody volunteered, the dignity of our unit would be tarnished. So even though I thought I would be discourteous to you, I picked you. But once the match started, I got badly shaken when I saw your posture since you looked like a complete novice. Yes, that is right. I had never grabbed the wooden gun before. I thought so, but I did not even imagine the tactics you used. I felt like bowing to you, thinking, after all, a man who excels in one art is different from others. After the match, Mr. Y came to me and asked, who in the world is he? I then told him about your achievements. He was deeply impressed, saying, no wonder he's the number one judo master in the world.

• 1:22:31Jocko Willink?

  The captain then paused and turned his eyes downward, engaging in thought. He continued, "This is super top secret, so do not tell us to anyone." He lowered his voice tone and said, "Do you really want to go to the battlefield?" Yes, absolutely. Really? But that's a problem. I had no idea what the problem was. "You will be sent to the Solomon Islands," he said. "It is certain that B29s will be waiting for our unit. Our plan is absolutely reckless. All the members onboard will perish in the ocean. Don't you think it's better to use your talent in judo and work for the benefit of the country instead of wasting your life on the battlefield? I think that is the right thing for you.

• 1:23:16Jocko Willink?

  Do you still want to go to the battlefield?" I replied, "Yes, I do." Suddenly, his tone of voice changed. "My order is the Emperor's order. You are not allowed to go." After all, it became an order. I had to follow his order. I said, "I will withdraw my volunteer application." He then murmured, "Very good, very good." Later on, I heard that the transportation ship unit I was going to get onboard was discovered by B29s immediately before reaching the Solomon Islands, had oil scattered over the entire deck, received numerous bombs, and was engulfed in flames. Of over 500 and several tens of members, only one of them survived and managed to swim to a nearby island despite a severe burn.

• 1:24:01Jocko Willink?

  In retrospect, I owe my life to the captain. Judo moved him and saved my life.

• 1:24:11Jocko Willink?

  Kimura stayed for the rest of his tour on the mainland Japan. Apparently transferred to a post near Asakura,

• 1:24:21Jocko Willink?

  his home island in southern Japan. Although he was in the army, he reportedly was allowed to teach judo once a week at the high school.

• 1:24:29Jocko Willink?

  Kimura was known as a heavy drinker, as well as smoker. And according to one account, showed up at the school one day after drinking excessive amount of sake. He was holding a class on noaza. After demonstrating the chokeholds, he called on the students to try them out on him. Although Kimura was extremely strong and had a neck like a bull, he was choked into unconsciousness by one of the students as a result of his intoxication. There's no evidence that this experience reformed his drinking habits, but it must have been at least mildly embarrassing for the national judo champion to have been choked out by a mere high school kid.

• 1:25:05Jocko Willink?

  He's on that sauce. It's very strange. You know, you just, the alcohol is so strong. You know, this guy's gotta know that it's not helping his judo career.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Remember we were talking about addictive personalities?

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it sounds like he's in the game.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  I mean, nine hours of training a day, that sounds like it might be addictive personality. Alcohol is just one of the many.

• 1:25:29Jocko Willink?

  He's smoking cigarettes. Kimura got married on July 1st, 1945, even as Japan was preparing to face invasion by the increasingly victorious Allied armies and navies. Fast forward here, the war is over. The occupation authorities closed down the Butokutai, the headquarters for all martial arts, and banned the practice of judo, kendo, and other militaristic endeavors. Shut it down.

• 1:26:01Jocko Willink?

  He says here, fast forward a little bit, "I was standing at the end of a line of 60 or 70 people waiting for a train, and was reading a paperback. Suddenly, four MP, this is military police, this is the occupation forces, men passed through the line nearby me forcibly. When I turned my eyes to them, I found them shouting 'Jap, Jap!' repeatedly. One of them grabbed the Japanese man at the front of the line by the collar, pulled the man toward him, and made a ring with the pointing finger and thumb, and stuck the nose of the Japanese man with the flipped pointing finger with full force. The man covered his nose with his hands and stooped down from the pain.

• 1:26:42Jocko Willink?

  The MP did this to, the MP men did this to everyone in the line, one by one, including women. When someone did not stoop low, they delivered another strike. My turn was approaching. While I was wondering about what to do, my turn came. One of the MP men extended his arm trying to grab my lapel. I struck his hand with full force. The facial expression changed suddenly. The four MP men surrounded me and took me to the middle of a bridge nearby the station. This was not an ordinary fight to me. I had to win this fight to defend the honor of judo. One of them came suddenly and threw a right straight at my face. I blocked the punch with my left arm and kicked him in the groin with full force. He crumpled on the spot.

• 1:27:23Jocko Willink?

  When I turned back my head, another huge MP extended his arms and attacked me, trying to grab me from behind. I then hit his right arm with a hard knife hand and threw him into the river.

• 1:27:35Jocko Willink?

  There were two, the other two were watching the scene in amazement, but charged at me only one by one. I delivered a headbutt into the face of the third man. He was knocked out. I disposed of the last man by squeezing his balls with full force. Ever since I was in junior high, I have been called master groin squeezer and had an absolute confidence in this technique. I had asked all the audience to keep it quiet since I would be in big trouble if news got to the MP supervisors. But somebody must have leaked the news. I started to regret what I had done, but my concern turned out to be unnecessary. When I got to the MP headquarters, Captain Shepard said, "Thank you for punishing the rogue MPs. They are the worst ones in our unit. They have sexually assaulted women, ate and drank

• 1:28:19Jocko Willink?

  without paying, threatened people with a pistol. We were about to be forced to punish them. They are also depressed after you beat them up. I'm truly thankful to you. I heard that you are the greatest judo master in Japan. I have a request to you. Could you teach us judo once or twice a week? Of course, I will pay you. I myself am anxious to learn judo."

• 1:28:43Jocko Willink?

  So that's how he kinda starts bringing it back. That's a scene out of a movie though, huh? Yep. Just kicking four guys' ass. But you can see how it's happening. Again, this isn't a time where like, you know, these guys, what, a couple MPs, four MPs, did one of those guys wrestle? Apparently not. Did one of those guys box? Apparently not. If they're just random dudes. And you're talking about? Yeah. A dude that's bench pressing, uh, 175 pounds, 600 times an hour, and he trains judo nine hours a day? Yeah. This is a skilled dude. World champion. World champion. Borderline unbeatable human being. Yeah. That's, when you see a movie and a guy takes on four people, you're kinda like, ah, you know, but if you put in the light of this actual human?

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:30Jocko Willink?

  We're nodding in agreement.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  And you're talking about like a judo guy, right? Where it's not like a, like a, you know, I mean, no disrespect to the Aikido, but like, you know, let's say if it's like Aikido guys, like it's different, you know? Judo guy, training that hard for real judo for that long, that effective, that successful against an untrained guy, just one on one, this guy literally is like one of the easiest things to defeat as a person. It's like super easy, right? Now you got four of them, it's actually not that much of a factor. I mean, sure, you're gonna take some of this, a hit here and there or whatever, but his training is harder than probably anything they could do to him as far as like hitting him or whatever. Just one training session is way harder, way more adverse.

• 1:30:10Jocko Willink?

  And they're used to beating people up.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:14Jocko Willink?

  You know, they're not used to any aggression whatsoever, so they don't even have the idea to like gang tackle this guy.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  They can't even get their mind right.

• 1:30:21Jocko Willink?

  They're, they're just, even two of them are watching this happen. You know what I mean?

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. That to me is very, very, very believable.

• 1:30:32Jocko Willink?

  And they're surprised as they're watching, you see guys getting their asses kicked. See a guy get thrown into the river.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Jocko Willink?

  You're like, what the hell just happened?

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  Imagine if you haven't really seen all that, you know, and you see two, three of your friends just get handled like super easily, almost like this guy's been training for this exact moment, and then now you're next and you have no training.

• 1:30:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  Or maybe there's some street training, because that's their jam, right?

• 1:30:53Jocko Willink?

  You just have no idea what you're doing.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  No idea.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  You, you go to grab the guy and you're literally getting thrown, like a judo, like, like a judo player, it's hard for you and me to imagine because we've been training for so long. It's hard to imagine what it's like to not have any training. You know, I don't remember what it's like to not know jujitsu anymore. I, I mean, when I talk about like Master Chief Bailey, like I just remember that instance of like, well, this is confusing, but I don't remember what was actually, what it was like the day before that. And like if I would have looked, and I've been in a lot of fights actually growing up, been in a lot of fights, but. What my thought process was, was just ignorant. And ignorant is the wrong word. It's just like a hollow emptiness.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a big blindness. You don't, you don't see anything. You see one or two things and you think that's the whole story. It's not even part of the story.

• 1:31:42Jocko Willink?

  You just have no idea. Check. Talks a little bit more about the ban on martial arts, the ban of martial, the ban on teaching martial arts extended to all levels of schools. The banning of judo schools, one of the pre-war strongholds of judo training, seriously impacted the ability of pre-war judoka to practice and eliminated hundreds of teaching jobs for, for top judoka. As late as 1947, there was still great confusion about the legal status of teaching and practicing traditional martial arts, especially in schools at all levels. It was not till between 1947 and 1950 that controls on the martial arts were loosened and judo and other martial arts were again permitted to be taught in schools.

• 1:32:23Jocko Willink?

  Even if such, and I'm just skimming some of these highlights of what, you know, what he's going through. Even if such restrictions had not been imposed on the teaching and practice of judo, many judoka were in no economic position to spend their time training. This was true of Kimura as well. From the end of the war, Kimura was, was unable to practice at all. He was trying to support his family with unstable jobs such as broker for coal sales, bodyguard, etc. Nonetheless, Kimura entered one of the first judo tournaments held after the war, war, 1947 West Japan Judo Championship. Kimura's pride, he won that. Kimura's prize for defeating both opponents was the equivalent of $10,000. Damn, that's pretty good in 1947. Hell yeah.

• 1:33:07Jocko Willink?

  Much needed windfall that helped him support his family during the difficult early post-war years. Following the tournament, Kimura was promoted to 7th Don.

• 1:33:20Jocko Willink?

  The first All Japan Championship held since 1940 was, was contested on May 2nd, 1948. Kimura likely would have been a favorite, but was denied entry because of his refusal to return the championship flag, which he had kept after winning four consecutive All Japan Championship tournaments before the war. So this is something that came up and there, there basically was given a flag and he didn't return it to like the judo people. And they were mad at him. And they were really mad at him. And so they didn't even let him in the tournament.

• 1:33:53Jocko Willink?

  Kimura did participate in the 1949 All Japan Championship at age 32. He remembered his match against Ishikawa, one of the toughest and most consistent opponents. After a second overtime, and again, I'm fast forwarding, but there's really cool details about these about these matches. After a second overtime, the judges' decision had to be rendered. All three judges both raised both red and white flags. It was a draw. The 1949 Championships was the highlight of Kimura's judo career. It was the last time Kimura would compete in the All Japan Championship, leaving him with four wins and a co-championship. So that last time that he competed, he actually had a draw,

• 1:34:35Jocko Willink?

  and there was dual champions there. Shortly after 1949, after winning 1949 All Japan Championship, Kimura was offered the highly prestigious position of judo instructor of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police. He began working there in April of 1950. But the salary was insufficient to support his family, now consisting of a wife, son, and daughter, especially since his wife had contracted tuberculosis. Medicine was extremely rare and expensive in post-war Japan. Kimura could simply not afford treatment on the police department salary. And the reason that this is important to bring up is because he had to figure out what to do to get money. Luckily, there's a new startup. New startup. I don't know if they use that term back in the day, but there's a professional

• 1:35:19Jocko Willink?

  judo came out. In pro judo's first tournament, Kimura worked his way through various opponents to reach the finals, where he faced six don, Yamaguchi Toshiyo. Kimura beat Yamaguchi by a soto gari, followed by a pin, becoming the first professional judo champion. Then this guy that he fought, Yamaguchi, started getting into the pro wrestling scene. And there's a whole, a whole story that we need to get Josh Barnett on here to get that we can get down and get the whole history of Japanese professional wrestling and where it came from and how it went. And we got the Americans that came over, the Americans that were catch wrestlers that went over to Japan and taught these guys how to do

• 1:36:03Jocko Willink?

  this stuff. Um, but Kimura got involved in that. And, you know, went to Hawaii, given a three-month contract to demonstrate judo on the Hawaiian Islands, pro wrestling, fast forward a little, we're pro wrestling promoter, gave him a, a offer to take part in weekly pro wrestling bouts. Money was great. He was able to get the medicine, able to buy the medicine for his wife. She was able to recover from her disease. Um, now meanwhile, in Brazil, there was a guy, another judo guy named Kado. Kado weighed about 154 pounds. Aleo Gracie

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  weighed 139. Gracie faced Kado twice. In the first match on September 6th, 1951, Kado and Gracie met at the Maracana Stadium in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil for a three-round draw. So the first time we had judo versus jujitsu, it was a draw. Guys that were roughly equal. I mean, 15 pounds is no joke, honestly, but they're more equal than some of these other matches that are going on at the time. Um, then they had a second bout, a second bout, September 29th, 1951. It's only 23 days later. Going to, uh, a quote or a story told by

• 1:37:30Jocko Willink?

  Kimura about the second match, "The rules of the bout were different from that of judo or pro wrestling. The winner was decided by submission only." Yeah.

• 1:37:41Jocko Willink?

  No matter how cleanly a throw is executed, or how long uh someone was pinned, it does not count. He issued the challenge to Kato, fifth Don first. The gong rang, Kato was in good condition and threw Aleo a number of times. However, past the 15 minute mark, I started to see, again, this is, this is Kimura watching this. I started to see frustration in Kato's face. The throws had no damage on Aleo since the mat was soft. At the 30 minute mark, it was evident that Kato was tired. What's the matter, Kato? Go nuwaza, don't stand up, the Japanese in the audience yelled. Kato then threw Aleo down, Baio Sotogari, mounted on Aleo and started a cross hand choke. The audience roared with excitement, but as I

• 1:38:24Jocko Willink?

  watched carefully, Aleo was also applying a choke from below. They were trying to choke out each other. This lasted about three or four minutes. Kato's face started to turn pale. I shouted stop to the referee and jumped into the ring. When Aleo released his hands, Kato collapsed on the mat face first. By beating Kato, Gracie became instant national hero.

• 1:38:49Jocko Willink?

  Unfortunately, his supporters went overboard in celebrating his victory, as Kimura remembered it. Two days after his bout, I saw Aleo's students marching down a city street carrying a coffin. They were shouting, dead Japanese judoka, Kato is in this coffin, he got killed by Aleo. We ask your support for Judo Master Aleo Gracie. So, Gracie's going hard in the paint, even back in the day, dude. Just bringing out a coffin. There's actually a picture of young Aleo Gracie in here, and you know, Aleo Gracie in most pictures, he looks kind of frail and weak. Like, look at that picture right there.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Oh damn.

• 1:39:25Jocko Willink?

  He looks legit. It's like the only picture I've seen him where you go, oh yeah, you can tell this dude's training all the time. Yeah, take a look at that.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Some traps, damn.

• 1:39:33Jocko Willink?

  So he's kind of jacked. He's wearing a singlet. He's wearing a wrestling singlet.

• 1:39:39Jocko Willink?

  So what happens after this? Kato gets beat. It's a shame for Judo. Kimura now accepts the match. And so now we have a match of of Kimura versus Aleo Gracie.

• 1:39:55Jocko Willink?

  One of the most significant matches in the history of martial arts. Am I wrong? You're not wrong, I don't think. I mean, it's one of the most significant matches in the history of martial arts. And that's what I opened with is how Aleo Gracie remembered it, what he thought of it. That was what we covered in the opening of this. Let's hear, let's hear how Kimura describes this match.

• 1:40:22Jocko Willink?

  He says 20,000 people came to see the bout, including the president of Brazil.

• 1:40:30Jocko Willink?

  Aleo Gracie was 180 centimeters and 80 kilograms. When I, which I think is, you know, I think Aleo would say he was lighter than that. But because 80 kilograms is 107, 165 pounds. More than that. Yeah. And, and yet they usually say Aleo was like 145 pounds or something like that. Anyways, when I entered the stadium, I found a coffin. I asked what it was. I was told this is for Kimura. Aleo brought this in. It was so funny that I almost burst into laughter. As I approached the ring, raw eggs were thrown at me. The gong ring. Aleo grabbed me in both lapels and attacked me with a sotogari.

• 1:41:13Jocko Willink?

  But they did not move me at all. Now it's my turn. I blew him up in the air.

• 1:41:19Jocko Willink?

  With a bunch of different throws, I'm not going to read them all. At about the 10 minute mark, I threw him by a sotogari. I intended to cause a concussion, but since the mat was so soft, it did not have much impact on him. While continuing to throw him, I was thinking of a finishing method. I threw him by a sotogari again. As soon as Aleo fell, I pinned him.

• 1:41:43Jocko Willink?

  I held still for two or three minutes, then tried to smother him with my belly. Elio shook his head, trying to breathe. He could not take it any longer and tried to push my body up extending his left arm. That moment, I grabbed his left wrist with my right hand and twisted his arm. I applied the entangled arm lock or the kimura. I thought he would surrender immediately, but Elio would not tap the mat. I had no choice but to keep twisting on his arm. The stadium became quiet. The bone of his arm was coming close to breaking point. Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Elio still did not surrender.

• 1:42:26Jocko Willink?

  His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but to twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the arm again. Another bone was broken. Elio still did not tap. When I tried to twist the arm once more, a white towel was thrown in. I won by TKO. My hand was raised. Japanese Brazilians rushed into the ring and tossed me up in the air. On the other hand, Elio left, let his arm hang and looked very sad. Withstanding the pain. So, there's a video of this, by the way. You can go watch this match, pretty awesome.

• 1:43:06Jocko Willink?

  Um, the, the, uh, the headline of the newspaper. Um, says moral victory of Elio Gracie. But the funny thing is, the moral victory, the moral part is really tiny. And so it just basically says victory for Elio Gracie. And, and look, in their minds, they, it was a victory. Because they thought, hey, here's a guy that's a lot lighter, a lot smaller, a lot less athletic. And he was able to go a long time against this champion. So it was a moral victory for, look at, look at that title.

• 1:43:47Jocko Willink?

  So there was definitely the, uh, some, some bias in the media, we'll say, back then. Uh, with that, you know, that's, like I said, one of the most significant.

• 1:44:02Jocko Willink?

  matches in the history of martial arts. Going back to the book here a little bit and fast forward, Kimura decided to join the growing and increasingly popular word of Japanese professional wrestling in November 1951. And then there's this whole story about this

• 1:44:21Jocko Willink?

  up and coming pro wrestling star who had fought under the stage name of Riki Dozan. He established his own wrestling federation called the Japan Pro Wrestling Alliance. Riki Dozan is often called the father of Japanese pro wrestling and has even said without him, there likely would be no such thing as pro wrestling in Japan. Riki Dozan had trained in karate and in sumo and reached the third highest rank. Before long, Riki Dozan and Kimura decided to pair up in an effort to put together a winning play bill and hike their income. Now he goes into this thing about these guys named the Sharp Brothers, Ben and Iron Mike, both 6'5" and over 250 pounds. So again, I'm sure these are Americans that rolled over there. And they were gonna do a, uh, they did a series of tag team matches

• 1:45:07Jocko Willink?

  against Rika Dozan and Kimura against these two guys, the Sharp Brothers. And this is, this is pro wrestling. These are kind of worked matches we're getting into where we know what's gonna happen, right? And this, they're trying to, literally like pro wrestling today. But again, this Japanese pro wrestling, there's things that are real that happen, there's things that aren't. Again, we gotta get Josh Barnett down here with his knowledge, exceptional knowledge of all this stuff to talk us through it.

• 1:45:38Jocko Willink?

  So then this happens. Their growing popularity led the media and the public to push for a bout between Kimura and Riki Dozan. Build us the duel of the century. The match was to last 60 minutes. Kimura remembers what happens, what happened next. I met with Rika Dozan and asked his opinion. He said, "That is a good idea. We will be able to build a fortune. Let's do it." The first bout was going to be a draw. The winner of the second bout would be determined by paper, scissors, stone. After the second match, we will repeat this process. We came to an agreement on this condition. So this is all just fake. It's fake pro wrestling.

• 1:46:23Jocko Willink?

  As for the content of the match, Riki Dozan will let me throw him and I will let him strike me with a chop and we rehearse the karate chops and the throws. So this is just a big, you know, big pro wrestling show.

• 1:46:36Jocko Willink?

  However, once the bout started, Riki Dozan became taken by greed for big money and fame. He lost his mind and became a madman. When I saw him raise his hand, I opened my arms to invite the chop. He delivered the chop, not to my chest, but to my neck with full force. I fell to the mat. Then he kicked me. Neck arteries are so vulnerable that it did not need to be Riki Dozan to cause a knockdown. A junior high school kid could inflict a knockdown this way. I could not forgive his treachery. That night, I received a phone call informing me that several tens of Yakuza are on their way to Tokyo to kill Riki Dozan.

• 1:47:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, some mayhem. And he goes on, he goes on, um, eventually Riki Dozan, he didn't get killed that night, but he died of, he died later, um, from other issues, stabbed with a short story. I mean, it's, that was like 10, 10 years later or something like that. But, uh, kinda terrible. You've seen some of those matches gone wrong?

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Wait, the Japan, the Japan ones?

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  Any pro wrestling?

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  No, I didn't. I'm not, I wasn't.

• 1:47:46Jocko Willink?

  You've seen occasionally someone get caught in a kimura, actually?

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You see remnants of that stuff all the time, yeah.

• 1:47:51Jocko Willink?

  People get pissed.

• 1:47:54Speaker 01

  Well, I always thought it was part of the show.

• 1:47:56Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes. There's one famous one where I think Kurt Angle gets caught in a kimura by like a young upcoming wrestler that knew jiu jitsu and like puts it on him for real. Yeah, it's kinda messed up.

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I don't know the deal, um, but I wonder how choreographed or how like intro, do they, is every detail kinda sorted out beforehand or is it just sorta like, hey, here's the gig, you go, you get ahead and you come back, then you get ahead and then you come back and win or, or like, well, I don't know what the deal is.

• 1:48:27Jocko Willink?

  They actually know what's up.

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, almost like you, you have to go to practice with them, right?

• 1:48:31Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I bet, let's say you and I, we're gonna do an exhibition match.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:35Jocko Willink?

  Probably be the same thing that we do. I'd be like, hey, man, you know. I'll come out and like, kind of, let me get a good throw on you and then I'll get you in a good position. You can escape.

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:45Jocko Willink?

  And you can start putting the heat on me and whatever. We just figured out, we could, we could act that out pretty easily.

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:50Jocko Willink?

  Just with our knowledge.

• 1:48:52Speaker 01

  There's a difference between that, us getting together beforehand, like the day of, and like weeks of like, kind of practicing it together. You know, I wonder how in-depth it goes. Cause some of them, also actually coincidentally, like within the past week or so, I saw it was, um, it'll be, it was the female one. And I was like, bro, they didn't really practice this, cause there was a lot of dead time and kind of confusion, you know?

• 1:49:13Jocko Willink?

  Was it like a professional, like on TV?

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, the one with the lights and the video.

• 1:49:18Jocko Willink?

  They have like, they have local pro wrestling, you know?

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  Oh, bro.

• 1:49:20Jocko Willink?

  You can go check that out.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  I think I might.

• 1:49:23Jocko Willink?

  There's some, there's some wildness. I went to one of those things. It was freaking awesome. Guys were going crazy. Like, you're looking at them impressed. Like, this is dangerous. Like, whatever they're doing. I seen a guy jump off of a building.

• 1:49:38Jocko Willink?

  I saw a guy jump off of a building in Ocean Beach, California, in a wrestling match. Jump off of the building and land in the ring on somebody.

• 1:49:45Speaker 01

  Oh, damn.

• 1:49:46Jocko Willink?

  Like, if I did that, or if you did that, we would be hurt 100%.

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much any building.

• 1:49:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I don't know what kind of drugs these dudes are on, or what they're taking, you know, whether they're on whatever, but hey, man.

• 1:49:58Speaker 01

  Some pain relievers.

• 1:49:59Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Definitely some pain reliever scenarios going on.

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  I do know that there's technique, though, to the, to the safety of the moves. So like, the, um, there actually used to be this reality show on like wrestling school. Or whatever. So I think that's my initial, um, knowledge from like the little techniques. But you know how, you know, the one, I don't know the, the names of the moves. But when the guy's laying on his back and you do like a drop with the back of your leg, you jump up and you land on him with the back of your leg on his face.

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  You like, you know, you make the little space. Yeah, like your knees kind of bent or whatever. There's like all these techniques and even.

• 1:50:33Jocko Willink?

  Funny that jiu-jitsu, the, it's the complete opposite of that. You're just trying to hurt the other person.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, everything's.

• 1:50:39Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  Like, you take away that space.

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, make it more effective. But yeah, I do wonder how that is. I think, um, oh, freaking.

• 1:50:51Speaker 01

  Sakuraba was in that for a bit.

• 1:50:53Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  The pro wrestling.

• 1:50:55Jocko Willink?

  Definitely was. And see, that's the thing in Japan and in MMA and pro wrestling and shoot wrestling and there was all kinds of crossover. There were worked fights. There were not worked fights. There's a there's a lot of stuff going on there. A lot of stuff that it's hard to follow.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  That's funny how like the guy um deviated from the script and then the Yakuza was immediately on his trail. That is not funny, but that's interesting right there.

• 1:51:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then you wonder, did they have bets on it? I mean, were they betting on this even though everyone knew it was fake? Like, what's going on? Or he's not allowed to do that kind of violation?

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  I know, right? Ruining the show for us. Maybe the I'm sure there's a bunch of other stuff that's kind of dependent, you know, riding on on that show.

• 1:51:34Jocko Willink?

  It's weird. You can always hear uh like when Rogan's talking to somebody that they're into pro wrestling. He he doesn't get like I'm that way too. Like, I can't, I can't, I can't buy into it, you know? I can't be like, oh, that's cool. Like Rick Rubin the other day. Rick Rubin's a huge fan of pro wrestling. He's like talking about how it's more like life than you ever see. Like I do, I mean, I'm sure at some point we'll talk through it, but him and uh Tony Hinchcliffe, he's totally into it. And I've heard, you know, him and and seems like Joe has a hard time with like figuring out why it's cool. And I'm I'm I agree with Joe. Like, it's hard when you can watch two humans fight in a cage.

• 1:52:19Jocko Willink?

  For real. Why would you possibly want to wa- watch two people act it out? It just doesn't make sense to me.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I'm sure there's something we're missing as far as the pro wrestling in life parallel. But you never know, right? I mean, how much pro wrestling do you watch?

• 1:52:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't watch enough, man. You know, I don't watch enough. I I it's hard for me to watch it because it takes a long time, too.

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:42Jocko Willink?

  You know what? You know what? I will give up. I will concede. You know, when you see a clip? You know, a clip of some pro wrestling?

• 1:52:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:49Jocko Willink?

  That might be pretty cool.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:52:50Jocko Willink?

  You know, like uh back in the day when all of a sudden the gong would go because the Undertaker's like showing up.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:52:57Jocko Willink?

  Or like Stone Cold Steve Austin.

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:00Jocko Willink?

  Like whatever intrigue, wild entry he has, you know?

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  So you're right about that.

• 1:53:05Jocko Willink?

  There's some dramatic elements that we give credit to.

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  They're really fun. So and when you consider that part of it, and I'm remembering back to my childhood days where I didn't really watch the whole thing, but you know, like they'd have the commercials for it. I'd be like, bro, that event. Whatever they're doing in there, I don't care what they're doing, whatever they're doing, that looks fun. So, and then you have all these crazy characters, like when The Rock was in his heyday, and when Do You Smell What The Rock Is? Cause we were waiting for that, we were waiting for him to say that. And then, you know, like, and you know, you know what he's about to do, cause he has the whole ritual, you know, the people's eyebrow and all this stuff. So, um, so when they came out with like the real characters, like, and the earliest I remember is the, there was like two twin brothers.

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  And they had a movie or whatever, but it was like that era, it's like eighties. And then, um, who was it, the freaking Ultimate Warrior? Hulk, Kogan, like all those guys, when they, when they were like these, these characters are really.

• 1:53:57Jocko Willink?

  Hulkamania running wild, yeah.

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, man. So, that event just started getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, yeah. And then the stunts are all crazy or whatever. So, yeah, you individualize like a certain sequence or a certain like action or whatever. Oh, yeah, I see it, I see it. But at the end of the day, I think what you're talking about, or what we're talking about is, when you watch two guys like in UFC 14, and they're really fighting, you don't know who's gonna win, you don't know how, this is gonna be hard, this is gonna be a tough fight, it's real fight. If he gets elbowed or kneed in the face, bro, it's like, there's some real consequences. And then you're like, okay, this one's obviously like choreographed, like obviously that part of it is hard.

• 1:54:32Jocko Willink?

  I guess what we're missing is, you know, to give credit to Rick Rubin and Tony Hinchcliffe is like, if they're tracking that whole story, it's like, have you ever watched Breaking Bad? Or some series, some series on TV where there's a bunch of characters and their stuff happening? And so you go, oh, this is a cool story and we're gonna follow it? I've never participated enough in that thing to really like understand all the stuff that's going on, so. That's probably why those guys are into it and super hype about it. And I doubt that Joe has ever participated in enough or paid enough attention to be like, wait a second, who's gonna win?

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:11Jocko Willink?

  Because it's real easy just to be like, who's gonna win tonight? There's no winning.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:14Jocko Willink?

  So I'm not gonna watch it, it's not real.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  It's not real, yeah, exactly. But that, but that's a good point, though, and. Cause yeah, like

• 1:55:22Jocko Willink?

  You gotta make an investment in it.

• 1:55:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:55:24Jocko Willink?

  And I'm not really, really, I'm really honestly not willing to invest in something when I could, I would much rather watch two people fight for real.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  So do you, and you, you've mentioned Breaking Bad. So did you watch Breaking Bad? Is that one where you kind of know, oh, remember when that happened? Do you know kind of the storyline, give or take? Breaking Bad?

• 1:55:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a story. It's one big story.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  Right. So are you familiar with that particular story though?

• 1:55:44Jocko Willink?

  Fairly, yeah. I mean, I am now that I watched it. I can't recall it all right off the top of my head.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. So perfect. So if you, if you get into a show like that, and you know, you got Netflix is really good at that right now. Like the format is like, oh, you can't wait for the next one, kind of thing. See what happens, all this stuff at these terms. So it's essentially that, but in the wrestling combat sports format.

• 1:56:04Jocko Willink?

  And honestly, I don't even know if there is a sustaining plot through the professional wrestling. I don't even know. There might be, there might not be. I don't know.

• 1:56:11Speaker 01

  Uh, and actually you're right. So I will, here's my, my, uh, my statement. If there is, I can see it now.

• 1:56:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:18Speaker 01

  Good before. It's like all this other stuff. Sure. We know. So just like, we know Breaking Bad is not real. You know, if you're there to really see a real meth lab be operated, then you're not gonna like Breaking Bad. Cause you'd be like, this is just not real, you know? But if you like the story, it grabbed you or whatever. I think per wrestling. And I can see how they could do a good job too with these characters. Uh, I totally see it now.

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  John Cena. So you know, the idea of when, um, not the idea, but, uh, they take John Cena, they, there's a clip. I don't know if it's just one clip or they always say it or what, what, and he says, and his name is John Cena. You ever heard that?

• 1:56:55Jocko Willink?

  Nope.

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  What? Okay.

• 1:56:56Jocko Willink?

  This is the, I know a little bit about maybe the eighties wrestlers. And then maybe the, some of the nineties wrestlers, like we're talking Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Undertaker, Stone Cold Steve Austin, maybe even a little bit further back, like Andre the Giant and, and the Iron Sheik. But again, at never in any moment in my life were they anything more than like a highlight reel.

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I have the same boat for sure. But these clips are so like used for a bunch of other stuff now. So it's like, his name is John Cena.

• 1:57:30Jocko Willink?

  Dallas Page.

• 1:57:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:57:31Jocko Willink?

  I just thought of him because he has DDP yoga. He's out there getting after it. Seems to help people out. Good for DDP.

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  But it's so like hype, you know, where it's like, and his name is John Cena. I'm sure they say it at a very specific time. I actually don't think I recall them actually using that clip in real life. I've never heard it or seen it be done. But now they'll do it on videos where like, you know, like if um, you ever seen that video Henzo always freaking posted or he's always posted where it's like two guys are fighting, right? And then somebody comes like out of nowhere and comes with like a huge jump kick and whatever. So this is for example, how they would use that clip. It's just the audio clip. His name is John Cena. Then it plays this music. So it'll have like a unrelated video, right of two people really fighting in real life, like a street fight or something and like a crowd bar fight or something.

• 1:58:20Speaker 01

  And then someone come flying out of nowhere and then they'd say they'd play the clip audio and his name is John Cena, right when they land the kick and it goes and it's this big thing. So that hype that they have isolated and individualized. When I understand and feel that hype when they play it on all kinds of different clips, by the way. That feeling that I get, if even a fraction of that is involved in pro wrestling, I get it.

• 1:58:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there you go. All right. Tony Hinchcliffe and Rick Rubin.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  Carry on.

• 1:58:50Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, guys, we're down. We're, our minds are open to your, to your things here. Uh, fast forward a little bit. In March 1955, Kimura went to Mexico to do pro wrestling matches. In November, he traveled to France to teach Judo during, Judo during the daytime and do pro wrestling matches at night. He did the same for London, spending a year in Paris and London. From there, Kimura traveled to Spain for four months to teach Judo and pro wrestling. You can kind of see where his life is heading to. Um, back to Brazil in 1959, returned to Brazil, what was to be his last pro wrestling and Judo tour. He was challenged by Valdemar Santana.

• 1:59:28Jocko Willink?

  27 year old champion of Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Capoeira and boxing, Kimura claimed that Santana had a fourth dawn in Judo. Though this may have been his ranking, Gracie Jiu Jitsu. At six foot, 205 pounds, he was taller, heavier and much younger than Kimura, now 42. The year before Santana had knocked out Aleo Gracie in a fight lasting three hours and 45 minutes. That's no, no time limit activity right there. Uh, so these two guys fight. Kimura threw Santana. Applied his uh, Kimura lock. Then they did a rematch. This rematch was Valley Tudo.

• 2:00:07Jocko Willink?

  Kimura hurt his left knee. The promoter insisted that they fight anyway. He says, "If you refuse to fight today, the angry audience will set fire to the arena. If this arena got burnt to ash, I would make you accountable for the damage." So he gets pressured into this fight with little choice. Kimura went ahead with the fight. They give us some pretty good detail around the fight. He says, "I traded kicks with him. The entire audience was standing with excitement. Even in this situation, I was able to think clearly. I was thinking he's one level higher than I, both in kicks and open hand strikes. In order to win, I must take the fight to the ground."

• 2:00:41Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. "All of a sudden, I received a head-cracking impact. I experienced a tremendous ear ringing, got momentarily unconscious. I had received a headbutt on my left temple. It was a headbutt from the side. I had thought that all headbutts would come from the front. I never knew of a side headbutt."

• 2:00:59Jocko Willink?

  Then he says, "I cannot lose here. I must win, even if I may die," I thought. Driven by this willpower, I tried to find a way to fight back. The referee came between us to separate us. We were already covered in blood. The fight was brought back to the center of the ring again. He threw an open right hand strike. I caught the arm and attempted a throw. It seemed like I would score a clean throw. However, it was a miscalculation. We were both heavily covered with sweat, as if a large amount of water had been poured onto our heads. Moreover, he had no jacket on. There was no way such a technique could have worked under these conditions. His arm slipped through and my body rotated in air once forward and I landed on my back."

• 2:01:42Jocko Willink?

  So this is classic, right? He tries a judo throw, but they're all sweaty. I mean, it's kind of crazy. When we're doing jiu-jitsu, it's like, "Oh, yeah, this sweat here." Like, "Oh, yeah, I can't do that when it's sweaty." We literally say that now. Even about, you know, heel hooks. Like, someone's super sweaty, the heel hook, it's hard to get a heel hook. Harder. Arm lock. If someone gets super sweaty, it's harder to get it. Throws, judo throws, real hard.

• 2:02:06Jocko Willink?

  "I screwed up," I shouted in my mind, "but it was too late." He immediately jumped at me. If he got on my chest, he could freely strike my eyes, nose, chest with his elbows. I caught him in a body scissors. I squeezed his body with full force, hoping to sever his intestine. He crumbled momentarily, but did not surrender. Since the body scissors did not finish him, I realized that I was in a disadvantageous position. When I lifted my head, I saw... When I lifted my head, hundreds of stars flew out of my eyes. I took a straight punch in the nose and my eyes. It was an accurate intense punch. The back of my head got slammed onto the mat. Moreover, an intense headbutt attacked my abdomen. I felt like my organs would be torn into pieces.

• 2:02:47Jocko Willink?

  Once, twice, I hardened my abdominal muscles to withstand the impact and waited for a third attack. At the moment, the third headbutt came. My right fist accurately caught his face by counter. It landed between his nose and eyes. Blood spattered. I had also been heavily covered in blood. The blood interfered with my vision. "Kill him! Kill him!" the devil in my mind screamed. He wobbled and stepped back and tried to run with the ropes on his back. I chased him, throwing kicks and open hand strikes. He returned headbutts and elbow strikes, but neither of us was able to deliver a decisive strike. Maybe we were both exhausted, or maybe the blood in our eyes prevented us from aiming clearly at the target. After all, the forty minutes ran out, and the match ended in a draw.

• 2:03:33Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, I didn't look for that one on YouTube to see if it's on there.

• 2:03:38Jocko Willink?

  Uh, getting into the final years. Kimura returned to Japan, retired from competition. 1960, took up a position of judo instructor at his alma mater university. He was highly successful coach. He trained a bunch of champions. His final years, however, were marred by the petty vindictiveness of the Kotocon authorities, who froze his rank at Seventh Dawn because he had refused to return the championship flag he believed he had earned in 1939, and because he had promoted a number of people in Brazil to black belt ranks in judo without authorization from the Kotocon. His professional wrestling experience also upset powerful figures who controlled judo rank and who thought he had demeaned the art by engaging in this form of entertainment.

• 2:04:22Jocko Willink?

  He remained a Seventh Dawn from the age of thirty until his death at seventy-five.

• 2:04:30Jocko Willink?

  We'll close this out here. It says, "Kimura never lost his spirit. However, he continued to teach and train even while many of those he had defeated were promoted to eighth, ninth, and even 10th. Don, in the early 1990s, Kimura, a lifelong smoker, was diagnosed with lung cancer. Hospitalized after surgery, and in his 70s, Kimura started doing pushups in his room. He died on April 18, 1993, at the age of 75, arguably the best judo competitor ever, and one of the most important judo figures ever to be mistreated by the leaders of his art."

• 2:05:15Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go. Always important to know your history, always important to know your roots, always important to learn some lessons here, and just a cool book from Christopher M. Clark. Once again, the book is called "The Trikes and Tragedy of One of Japan's Greatest and Most Controversial Judo Champions."

• 2:05:39Jocko Willink?

  Good place to learn some lessons, and to see where we can improve, where we can become stronger, faster, smarter, better. See where we can become a little bit more like Kimura. So, there you go. Echo, Charles, if we're gonna be getting better, we need to fuel the system, get some Jaco Fuel, some Jacofuel.com. I was up at this big food expo thing, and at this big food expo, I saw a bunch of people there. They're coming up to me, and they're saying, "I didn't know you made supplements. I didn't know you made an energy drink. I didn't know you made a protein drink." A decent amount of people. I would say half the people that came and said hi to me were like, "Oh, I didn't know you had this," which

• 2:06:22Jocko Willink?

  means I know I do a terrible job of putting the word out there. So, Jacofuel.com, we make the best supplements in the world, straight up. So, check that out. Check out Jacofuel.com. Get yourself some ready to drink. Get yourself one of these drinks here. Energy drinks.

• 2:06:43Jocko Willink?

  Without the stigma, by the way. Yeah, that's good for you. Your kids can drink it. You know, like, we made it as good as you can possibly make these things. So we got stuff for your joints. If you're gonna be doing judo, judo, jujitsu and wrestling and Muay Thai and boxing, your joints are gonna be, need a little, they're gonna need a little comfort.

• 2:07:00Speaker 01

  A little love.

• 2:07:01Jocko Willink?

  Need a little, get yourself some joint warfare, get yourself, get yourself some time war, by the way.

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:07Jocko Willink?

  We're trying not to get older.

• 2:07:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:10Jocko Willink?

  Right? Get that time war, it's basically designed for your entire health profile, especially the longevity profile. So we just brought that out. Check that one out. You can get the stuff jockofuel.com, you can get it at Wawa, you get the drinks at Wawa, you can get them at Vitamin Shop, you get all the stuff at Vitamin Shop, Military Commissaries, Hanaford's, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wake Fern, Shop Right, Circle K, HEB, and Meyer. We got it going on. Um, Circle K, did I say Circle K? Yeah. So a bunch of different great stores, you can get this stuff. Uh, also, if you're doing jujitsu,

• 2:07:50Jocko Willink?

  if you're doing judo, you're gonna need some gear. You need to wear a gi. OriginUSA.com, get yourself a gi, get yourself a rash guard if you're doing no gi, get yourself some spats, if you're wearing spats, or get yourself some shorts. All the stuff made in America. No, no one's being enslaved like they are if you buy some other brand that's, that's contracting out a sweatshop in Southeast Asia, or in China, to make your gear by some 11 year old girl that's getting paid 12 cents a day. Don't do, don't participate in that.

• 2:08:28Jocko Willink?

  No reason. Made in America. Even the fabrics are made in America. Boots, jeans, joggers, t-shirts, hoodies. OriginUSA.com, go get some.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  I wore that light wash Delta 68 yesterday to the mall.

• 2:08:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  I don't go to the mall, but I did it on my daughter's birthday, etc.

• 2:08:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, things happen.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, things happen. But the first time I wore the light wash during the day where we could see.

• 2:08:54Jocko Willink?

  Comfortable.

• 2:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, very comfortable, actionable. You know, you can do some squats if you want, you know? I didn't. But I did get this, a massive compliment from my lovely wife.

• 2:09:03Jocko Willink?

  And she said?

• 2:09:04Speaker 01

  They look good on you.

• 2:09:05Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 2:09:06Speaker 01

  There you go. So, fashion and function.

• 2:09:08Jocko Willink?

  I'm more focused on the function thing, but obviously. Mrs. Charles is focused on the fashion side.

• 2:09:15Speaker 01

  Hey, if you're gonna get a fashion compliment from someone who it means something to and from.

• 2:09:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:23Jocko Willink?

  OriginUSA.com to go check it out.

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  That's a good one. Also Jaco's store called Jaco's store is where you can represent shirts, hats, hoodies, all that stuff. Discipline equals freedom. Represent that on this path. We're not training nine hours a day necessarily. But if you are, I'm not gonna say nothing. Get your bench on. Yes. Whatever you like. Nonetheless, you're representing while you're doing these things. Or just cruising, just walking around, whatever. You can do that and you can get it from Jaco's store.com. Also, there's a shirt locker. You can new shirt every month with different types of cool designs. Still representing the path, by the way. But it's a subscription scenario. So yeah, check that one out. It's called the Shirt Locker. It's on Jaco's store.com.

• 2:09:59Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to the podcast. Check out Jaco Underground, JacoUnderground.com. We're about to record one of those actually when we get done here. We cover some other topics. We do Q and A. It's also a platform that we own. So we can say whatever we want. We can't get banned. It's banned proof. It's cancel proof. If you can't afford $8.18 a month, we get it. It's okay. Email [email protected]. But we just want you there with us in the underground. Don't forget, we have a YouTube channel. Subscribe to that. Origin USA, Jaco Fuel also have YouTube channels. We have Psychological Warfare. We got Flipside Canvas. Bunch of books. This here book, once again, Kimura, The Triumphs and Tragedy of One of Japan's Greatest and Most Controversial Judo Champions.

• 2:10:44Jocko Willink?

  It's written by Christopher M. Clark. So check that out. Get yourself some history. Know your history. Don't forget about the Way of the Warrior Kids books. I mean, come on. You want your kid to be raised with discipline. But it's hard to impose on them. But when they voluntarily want it because they understand it, it's gonna make your whole life better. It's gonna make their lives better. Way of the Warrior Kids series. Go check those out.

• 2:11:10Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, I've written a bunch of other books as well. We also have a leadership consultancy. Go to eslamfront.com. If you need help inside your organization, we can solve all your problems through leadership. We have a online training program for that. It's called extremeownership.com. Go to extremeownership.com, take courses, come and ask me questions. I'm on there live once a week. You can just sit there and ask me about what's going on with your coworker? What's going on with your husband? What's going on with your wife? What's going on with your kids? What's going on with jujitsu? You got a question to ask, come and ask it.

• 2:11:45Jocko Willink?

  Live better. Extremeownership.com. Also, if you want to help families,

• 2:11:53Jocko Willink?

  service members, active and retired, you want to help Gold Star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a great charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. And don't forget about Micah Fink, HeroesAndHorses.org. Latest update from the wilderness. Apparently, at this time, Micah Fink is in a snow cave. He has killed a mountain lion and he is making a jacket from the mountain lion skin. That's what's going on. That's the latest report, you know? Unverified at this time, but you know, we have faith. If you want to connect with us on the,

• 2:12:36Jocko Willink?

  on the social media, Echo's at Echo Charles. I'm at Jaco Willing. Just watch out for the algorithm. It's there. It's there. It's literally

• 2:12:46Jocko Willink?

  artificial intelligence that's meant to make you watch it more. That's its whole purpose. You want, people are like, oh, AI is not going to be evil. Some people are like, oh, AI is evil. I'm going to tell you, that AI is evil.

• 2:12:58Jocko Willink?

  It's a little dopamine dealer and it's in there going spreading it around. Got you. Isn't it embarrassing that it gets you?

• 2:13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:08Jocko Willink?

  Kind of embarrassing.

• 2:13:09Speaker 01

  It feels embarrassing, yeah.

• 2:13:11Jocko Willink?

  Why? What do you mean? It feels, but it's not?

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  I'll put it this way, I don't discount what I'm up against, so, in hindsight, see what I'm saying? Cause the thing is made specifically, just like you said.

• 2:13:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:22Speaker 01

  Made specifically.

• 2:13:23Jocko Willink?

  For you.

• 2:13:23Speaker 01

  For you. Like, in a way, it probably is not, doesn't think it's evil. It probably thinks it's good. It's probably like, hey, you know what?

• 2:13:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's doing its job.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's doing its job. It cares about you. It cares. The internet knows what you like, because you told it what it like, what you like.

• 2:13:36Jocko Willink?

  Smothering mother, that thinks she's doing a good thing by like smothering the kid with, you know, all this love and joy and toys and cookies and crackers and that kid ends up weak.

• 2:13:46Speaker 01

  That's true. That's a perfect analogy. Like, oh, I saw his, his, his beautiful smile after I gave him that cupcake, so what am I do?

• 2:13:52Jocko Willink?

  Give him another one.

• 2:13:53Speaker 01

  Give him another one, maybe another flavor.

• 2:13:55Jocko Willink?

  Dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. Alright. So, watch out for that algorithm. Watch out for that dopamine dealer that's locked inside your phone, waiting to get out. He doesn't even, he's working 24 hours a day, by the way. He's a freaking robot. He's not getting paid. He's just in there, just, just, uh, an inanimate thing. Is taking your time, stealing your life from you. Just watch out for it. And thanks to all the true warriors in our military that are out there on the front lines, protecting freedom around the world. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, all first responders.

• 2:14:33Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for protecting us here at home. And everyone else out there, you know, there's a, doing my research on Kimura. There's an interview from a 1987 issue of Full Contact Karate Magazine. And Kimura says a bunch of stuff, you can Google it, but one thing he says is, you can't just lie around sleeping like everybody else.

• 2:15:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's how he trained three times harder than his opponents. That's how he was lifting. That's how he was training. That's how he was conditioning. That's what he did. That's how he became champion, by getting up every day. And getting after it. And I actually recommend that you do the same. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.