Pod Insights Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! | Greek Mythology & the Ancient Mediterranean RE-AIR: Euripides Has No Business Making Us Feel for Agamemnon! (Iphigenia at Aulis, Part 1) About this episode NOTE! This episode originally aired in 2021. A new episode of the Agamemnon series will come out next week, this week life got in the way... So please enjoy part 1 of Euripides' take on Iphigenia's sacrifice...
The Greeks weren't able to sail for Troy but for the sacrifice of Agamemnon's eldest daughter, Iphigenia. Even for Agamemnon, this one's particularly dark and Euripides's tragedy retelling Iphigenia's fate is the best way to tell her story. Listen to Part 2 https://play.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-myths-baby-a-greek-and-roman-mythology-podcast/cxxxix-enterclytemnestra-takingnosh-t-iphigeniaataulispart2-, Part 3 https://play.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-myths-baby-a-greek-and-roman-mythology-podcast/cxl-deathisbad-theangerofclytemnestra-thestrengthofiphigenia-iphigeniaataulispart3-, and the (questionable) Epilogue https://play.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-myths-baby-a-greek-and-roman-mythology-podcast/deusexmachina-theverymehiphigeniaataulisepilogue-iphigeniaataulisbonus-. Pre-order Liv's Odyssey adaptation (!!!), The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest!
CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.
Sources: Iphigenia at Aulis, versions translated by E. Coleridge and Cecelia Eaton Lushnig (quotes from Luschnig); Earth Greek Myths by Timothy Gantz; Theoi.com. Special thanks to Ash Strain for their help researching this episode! Follow Ash on Twitter: @ashstrain_ https://twitter.com/ashstrain_?s=21.
Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.
Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand).
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Liv Albert? Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.
0:43 Speaker 01 The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.
1:24 Speaker 01 That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.
1:35 Speaker 02 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
1:41 Speaker 03 Love the crown molding.
1:43 Speaker 02 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
1:46 Speaker 03 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet?
1:50 Speaker 02 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
1:54 Speaker 03 No FiOS? Yeah, no thank you.
1:57 Speaker 02 Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.
2:00 Speaker 04 Get Verizon FiOS, because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.
2:31 Liv Albert? Hi, hello, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby! And I am your illustrious host, Liv. Can someone call themselves illustrious? It's pretty self-aggrandizing, and yet, here I am. I am really excited for today's episode. I know I did some revisiting of old stories over the past few weeks, and I hope everyone enjoyed them. Download numbers suggest maybe you all don't love when I do that, but it's really fun for me, and I think it adds so, so much more to these stories. It really only applies to stories like Perseus that I told so, so early in the podcast that honestly, I just had no idea what I was doing, or where, or how to research.
3:14 Liv Albert? Anyway, we're back to new, new, new stories, so not to worry. Everyone, download them again, please. I kid, kind of. I'm so excited for today's episode for so many reasons. First, obviously, this is a Euripides play, so that alone elicits some major excitement from me. Second, we get to revisit some of those dark and badass characters from the Trojan War without revisiting a story I've already told, kind of. And third, I mean, it's about a woman even if she is about to be in some real trouble. But before we get any deeper into the story, a quick bit of news. First, I have a very exciting announcement coming in Friday's episode.
3:59 Liv Albert? I can only hint about it now because we're still ironing out the details, but basically, there is going to be the first-ever livestream of Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and it's going to be livestreamed from Athens with a view of the fucking Parthenon. How, you ask? Well, okay, I will be traveling to Athens next month. Obviously, there's a lot going on in that statement. A lot of thought went into this, a lot of back and forth debate. We are obviously still very much in the pandemic. I am lucky enough to be double vaccinated and as soon as I knew I would be, I booked this trip to Athens.
4:44 Liv Albert? I miss Greece so much. I've had such a bizarre couple of years and I just, I really need to go back. I also know that Greece needs tourism. They're really struggling after last year as a country that was already struggling and has been for a while. I want to give them my tourism dollars and I'm going to do it in the safest way possible. I'm going masked. I'm going distanced. I'm gonna spend my time outside. And well, as you can tell, I've thought about this a lot and I want to make it clear where I'm at as a human. But also, I'm meeting up with the Women of Ancient History fangirl over there. Two women who I've become really close with through this pandemic and we get to meet in person for the first time.
5:28 Liv Albert? So, well, we're gonna do a livestreamed live show. Again, full details to come on Friday and it will also be announced on all the varied social media platforms. So stay tuned.
5:42 Liv Albert? Today, though, is about Iphigenia. And I couldn't have written this episode without the amazing help of an amazing listener, Ash Strain. She helped me with the research for this episode and I'm just so thrilled. Plays can be tricky. There's a lot of reading dialogue to distill it into events that I can then turn into a narrative story. And they helped me with that in a way that saved me so much time and thus allowed me to give you a better episode at this time when I am at a level of busy that I can't quite put into words. So huge thank you, Ash. If you wanted to follow Ash on Twitter, their handle is in the episode's description.
6:23 Liv Albert? The story of Iphigenia stems from those Trojan War origins. The wedding of Peleus and Thetis, Eris and her golden apple, the competition of Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite for who is the so-called fairest, and the resulting loss of Helen. Did she leave with Paris willingly, or did he abduct her? I won't weigh into that today, because what we need to know is, simply, she is with Paris, that Trojan, and that has caused the Greeks to seek war with Troy. Way back in the day, when I covered the Trojan War and the Iliad, I did tell you about Iphigenia’s fate at the hands of her father.
7:05 Liv Albert? I told you about Agamemnon, the man eagerly seeking war with Troy, a man who was about as warmongery as a certain presidential dynasty, the results of which are still being felt today. But here’s the thing about this version from Euripides’s play: it’s a very different Agamemnon. It’s a much more intricate and detailed and emotional adaptation of Iphigenia’s tragic story. It is ultimately a brand-new episode, I promise. Because today’s episode is all Euripides.
7:48 Liv Albert? This is episode 138. Euripides has no business making us feel for Agamemnon. Iphigenia at Aulis, Part 1.
8:13 Liv Albert? The tragedy entitled Iphigenia at Aulis was the last play Euripides wrote before his death. Though the timing of it isn’t certain, it’s generally understood to have been written in that last year of his life, 406 BCE. And like the back eye, it wasn’t produced as a play until after his death. Some would argue that it was finished or rewritten so much after his death that it isn't all his. I don't want to dive into that history of it too much because I just love Euripides and I find it sad that he never saw works of his produced on the stage within his lifetime, particularly back eye, because I mean it's fucking back eye, but this one too, because it's really something else.
8:55 Liv Albert? Where we find the characters of Euripides's play, Agamemnon and the Achaeans, the Greeks, are seeking war with Troy for again, the loss of Helen. But they're stuck. They've amassed a fleet of ships in Aulis, a region in ancient Biocia, across from the island of Albia. Once the Achaeans reach Aulis though, where they intend to set sail for war with Troy, they find themselves lacking in a thing they most need in order to reach that far-off land, all the way in modern Turkey: wind. The goddess Artemis has been angered, the reasons for which varies, but she is mad and in her anger, she has restricted the
9:37 Liv Albert? winds and thus restricted the Greeks and stranded them in Aulis.
9:44 Liv Albert? This is where we find Agamemnon, king of Argos, Mycenae, his brother, Medelaus, king of Sparta, husband of Helen, Achilles, the so-called best of the Greeks, and the rest of the gathered Achaeans, all ready for war, if at times reluctantly.
10:22 Liv Albert? It's the middle of the night when we meet up with Agamemnon there at Aulis. He's in his tent, he's restless about the events before him, and he's gonna tell the audience all about it. Agamemnon recalls those very initial origins of their current situation, when the men of Greece were courting Helen, all seeking to marry this famously beautiful princess, and a pact was made. Her father, Tyndareus, was worried that a battle would start once just one of the men gathered was selected to marry his daughter. So he made them all promise that they would protect the new couple, whoever they may be.
11:03 Liv Albert? The men of Greece all swore to defend Helen and whoever it was that she married. Thus, they swore to protect the marriage of Helen and Menelaus. As Agamemnon explains it, "Whoever wins Tyndareus's daughter as his wife, they swore to defend his rights if anyone took her from home, displacing her husband from her bed, to raise an army and lay waste the seducer's city, Greek and foreign alike, with force of arms." Now, if you're recalling the fact that Helen was actually the daughter of a certain avian tryst with Zeus, you would be right. It's generally accepted that Helen and Castor, one of her brothers,
11:46 Liv Albert? are in fact the children of Zeus after he assaulted their mother Leda in the form of a swan. Lovely moment, that one. Tyndareus, though, was Leda's husband and the father of her other children, Clytemnestra and Polydeukes, Castor's twin, so generally, they're all considered the children of Tyndareus. He's certainly the one who's stuck around post-swan encounter. This oath sworn by the kings of Greece, that they would defend the marriage of Helen and Menelaus, is where all the trouble begins. It is also typically something suggested by Odysseus in place of Tyndareus. Euripides chooses Tyndareus as being at fault here, though. Agamemnon goes on to remind the audience that Helen was now no longer with her husband in Sparta,
12:31 Liv Albert? but that she'd been whisked away to Troy with that darned Trojan prince, Paris. "Along came that man from Troy, the very one, the story goes, who judged the goddesses all the way to Sparta, decked out in the gaudiest attire, glittering with gold, a peacock strutting out of Asia."
12:54 Liv Albert? Agamemnon believes very much that it was Helen's choice to go away with Paris, that they were mutually in love when they left Sparta in the dead of the night. And for good measure, he throws in a reminder that Paris is not Greek, thus reminding everyone that Helen not only ran off from her husband, but she ran off with a man who wasn't Greek, and off to a place far off in the world of those barbarians who don't even speak Greek. That doesn't necessarily mean it was true, of course, that Helen left with Paris willingly and in love with him, but it's important to note that Agamemnon, and probably the rest of the Greeks too, firmly believe that Helen was equally at fault. They're not about to just forgive her for this.
13:36 Liv Albert? And as much as Helen is very much to blame in Agamemnon's eyes, there is also the breaking of xenia to contend with. It's been a while since I drilled in just how important this concept was in ancient Greece, so a refresher. Xenia is the guest-host relationship that was absolutely vital to relations between humans in that world. Xenia meant that if you were a host, you would treat a guest as though they were a member of your family, and it meant that if you were a guest, you would treat your host with equal respect. Regardless of Helen's choice in the matter, Paris absolutely and unequivocally broke xenia. So Euripides' Agamemnon laments this situation,
14:19 Liv Albert? reminding the audience where they are and how they got there, but also very much giving himself some sympathetic qualities in their eyes. This Agamemnon says he wishes he hadn't been chosen to lead the Greeks against the Trojans. He says that the other Greeks were the ones who elected him as their leader. He is Menelaus's brother, and thus personally connected to the situation without being quite so deep into it as Menelaus himself. Euripides wants you to feel for Agamemnon in a way that basically every other version and source of him doesn't.
15:14 Liv Albert? This odd and out-of-place sympathizing with Agamemnon only continues. He continues speaking to the audience, telling them about the lack of wind. He tells them that Artemis has been angered and that he must appease her in order to get the winds back in time for them to sail to Troy. Once more with this good Agamemnon, there's no mention in this play about why Artemis is so angry. Mythologically, it's because he killed her sacred deer and bragged about being a better hunter than her, both things that explicitly make him the enemy and provide an obvious reason for why he is being punished by the goddess. But it seems Euripides is unconcerned with this.
15:56 Liv Albert? So, how is Agamemnon meant to appease Artemis? Artemis, the huntress goddess, the protectress of girls, the woman who famously favored women over men. Well, according to Agamemnon, their seer, Chalcis, has told him that he must sacrifice his daughter, Iphigenia. Now again, I realize I zoomed right through this bit of the lead-up to the Trojan War in those earlier episodes, but truly this play adds so much to it, while also adding another level of Agamemnon that I frankly just can't quite wrap my head around. Because yes, Agamemnon has just told the audience essentially why they're there.
16:39 Liv Albert? He's been told he must sacrifice his daughter Iphigenia, thus introducing the crux of the play, something the audience in the theater would have already understood. They know Agamemnon, they know Iphigenia, they know what happened there in Atlas. So what Euripides is doing here is not just retelling this classic bit of myth, but creating a sympathetic Agamemnon, one the audience will find it difficult to hate. Diving deeper into that, the audience of this play would have been incredibly familiar with Aeschylus's take on Agamemnon with his play called, well, Agamemnon.
17:20 Liv Albert? If you don't remember that one, that's the play that tells of Agamemnon's death after the war. And that play firmly lays out what a monster Agamemnon was when he sacrificed Iphigenia. It lays out how much he deserved his fate at the hands of his very righteously angry wife, Clytemnestra. Meanwhile, here's Euripides, a generation later, giving us this Agamemnon. This Agamemnon who, after announcing that he's been told he has to sacrifice his daughter, explains that simply, he wouldn't. He says that when he heard this prophecy, he couldn't even imagine sacrificing his daughter.
18:01 Liv Albert? That he told the armies right then that they might as well just head home, because he won't do it. Finally, Agamemnon calls in one of his servants to discuss what he's dealing with, this impasse they've found themselves in at Aulis, the decision he's faced with. And once more, we get this absolutely left-field version of Agamemnon. To his servant, he says, quote, "I envy you. I envy any man who passes his life free of peril, unsung, anonymous. For those in high office, I feel no envy."
18:43 Liv Albert? This is Agamemnon speaking. Agamemnon, the king of Mycenae, Agamemnon from the Iliad, who takes his role as leader of the Greeks very seriously, to the point of stealing enslaved women from other Greeks, from Achilles. This is Agamemnon, and he envies a servant who holds no power. He says he doesn't want power, that he wants to be anonymous. What a wild ride Euripides is giving us. It's fucking fascinating. A visionary.
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21:23 Speaker 02 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
21:29 Speaker 03 Love the crown molding.
21:30 Speaker 02 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
21:34 Speaker 03 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.
21:38 Speaker 02 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
21:41 Speaker 03 No FiOS? Yeah... no thank you.
21:45 Speaker 02 Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.
21:48 Speaker 04 Get Verizon FiOS, because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.
21:52 Speaker 01 The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time. Or Tech in Steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.
22:33 Speaker 01 That's G-A-B-B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.
23:00 Liv Albert? Which is when I tell you that I'm so sorry we're only a fraction through this play and I've harped so long on this version of Agamemnon, but it's fascinating. Who is this man? He doesn't resemble any of the versions of Agamemnon that we've seen before. He's a fucking enigma, and I'm obsessed with it. Because guess what? Agamemnon says it's actually Menelaus who convinced him that he has to sacrifice Iphigenia, that he has to set aside his paternal instincts, his love for his daughter, and sacrifice her for a bit of wind. Wind that will take the Greeks to Troy for a war over Menelaus's wife.
23:36 Liv Albert? Agamemnon explains to his servant that this is what's happened, that Menelaus convinced him to do something horrible, and that he holds in his hands a letter that he's written to his wife, to Clytemnestra. He explains that he's written a letter to Clytemnestra instructing her to bring Iphigenia to Aulis, that there, at Aulis, Iphigenia will marry, that she will marry not just anyone, but Achilles, the best of the Greeks. Basically, we're learning that Menelaus has convinced his brother that his wife, who he believes has chosen to leave him, is worth more than Iphigenia, Menelaus's own niece,
24:19 Liv Albert? Agamemnon's daughter. And so, here we find ourselves with Menelaus supposed to be the bad guy, the enemy, and Agamemnon, at least a tiny bit sympathetic? Honestly, I am shook. Agamemnon continues speaking about this letter that he's written to Clytemnestra. He explains that not only did he instruct her to bring Iphigenia to Aulis, where she'll marry Achilles, but that his lie went so deep as to explain that Achilles was the one holding them there in Aulis, that it was Achilles who had announced he wouldn't sail
24:57 Liv Albert? with the Greeks to Troy unless he married a woman from Agamemnon's family. The letter is inherently fucked up, the entire pretense is horrifying, the idea of this young woman being brought far from her home with the promise not only of marriage, something she would have thought about extensively as the only way for her to move on with her life, to move beyond her family's home, but marriage to Achilles, the man everyone knows is their best, the man who's not only revered by everyone, but who, we can assume, is also pretty fucking hot. She's basically been told she's going to Aulis to embark on what might be a perfect
25:39 Liv Albert? life, a perfect marriage to a super-hot guy who's looked upon as the absolute best, most heroic, most incredible of the Greeks. Meanwhile, it's only death in store for poor Iphigenia.
25:59 Liv Albert? But this letter, Agamemnon explains, was only the first one he sent to Clytemnestra. Instead, he holds another letter in his hands. He's been writing and rewriting it all night in the cover of darkness, so no one will know what he's doing. He's trying to prevent Iphigenia from coming to Alice after all, trying to keep his daughter alive, trying to avoid having to sacrifice her. He hands this new letter to his servant, explaining its contents, explaining the truth that so few people know, that Iphigenia was to die when she arrived in Alice, not marry Achilles as she and almost everyone else involved believes.
26:43 Liv Albert? The instructions to the servant are clear: Do everything possible to stop Clytemnestra and Iphigenia from arriving at Alice. Don't stop to sleep or eat, just get to Argos before they can leave. Or if you meet them along the way, tell them to turn back. Anything, anything to keep Iphigenia from arriving in Alice. I just can't get over how much we're supposed to like Agamemnon, or at least sympathize with him. Or maybe all the audience was supposed to do is feel exactly like I am now, curious
27:25 Liv Albert? as to why Euripides has given them this version of Agamemnon, this version so different from the one they know so well, from the Iliad and from the other plays by the tragedians. Agamemnon has never been a likable man, not always one believed to be deserving of straight murder, but never a likable man. And yet... Anyways, you might have guessed already, I have not read this play prior to covering it for this podcast, so like so many of the stories I tell you all every week, every moment is a surprise to me too. Honestly, it's kinda nice, especially with this play, because I get to experience it as the audience would, and I get to pass that down to you all, just like the audience
28:07 Liv Albert? watching it being performed at the Dionysia after Euripides's death. We know the backstory, we know what's mentioned in the Iliad, but we don't know where Euripides's take on this story is going to go.
28:24 Liv Albert? So far, big surprise at Agamemnon’s character, but don’t get too comfortable. He’s still Agamemnon after all, and if Agamemnon’s fate doesn’t change all that much...
28:54 Liv Albert? So, as I read to you the 3,000th word of this episode, the chorus finally arrives on stage. They are a group of women from the nearby town of Chalcis, and they are thirsty. The women of Chalcis, the chorus, begin their song by gushing over the influx of hot dudes making their way through town. This chorus is here to put a bit of background into the situation there in Alice, a bit less from the mouth of Agamemnon. They tell the audience that they’re there again for the hunks, though not quite with that wording. “They’ve left their homes and husbands to witness all these Greek men
29:35 Liv Albert? massing there as they prepare to set out for Troy.” These Chalcian women are even here to tell us that famed number of ships that will make their way to Troy, a thousand of them.
29:51 Liv Albert? The way these women look at the men as they prepare to head out for war is pretty unique and also just fun, let’s be honest. I mean, war mongering aside, if a bunch of muscular, gorgeous, mysterious dudes were traipsing through the city, it would be pretty hard for all the straight women, let alone the dudes, to keep from watching at least a little bit. I mean, if that’s happening and I have easy access, I am taking part. These women from Chalcis take note of some of the most impressive and famous of the Greeks, though most of their fame is yet to come.
30:26 Liv Albert? Both Ajaxes are ogled. Proteus Laius and Palamedes are seen playing a nice game of checkers. Diomedes is throwing a discus. My main man Odysseus is there, among others. There's definitely some subtle swooning happening, and frankly, I'm here for it. The women take special note of Achilles as he races down a beach, competing against a chariot being pulled by four horses. And he, on foot, keeps up with the chariot. I mean, when that's an option, who isn't just watching Achilles be Achilles? I'm exclusively picturing Brad Pitt here because it just feels necessary, you know?
31:06 Liv Albert? That movie has a lot of flaws, but 2004 Brad Pitt makes for a very sexy Achilles, let me tell you. It's not all ogling, nor is it the ogling super overt. But they're definitely eyeing up these men, and there are a lot of them to eye up. Beyond the famous dudes playing checkers and discus, the chorus continues laying out everyone who's there in a lengthy song reminiscent of the Catalog of Ships in the Iliad. The women watch as these men take over the area near to their town, setting up their camps, their ships anchored off the coast, all preparing to leave for the war against Troy, while simultaneously waiting for that wind that will take them there.
31:51 Liv Albert? With the chorus of women introduced via their ogling of the Greek men around them, the plot continues.
31:59 Liv Albert? Menelaus enters and comes upon the servant carrying Agamemnon's letter to Clytemnestra and Iphigenia, and he tries to intercept it. Menelaus seems to be immediately distrusting of his brother with this act. Like, dude, why are you assuming Agamemnon is trying to get out of, you know, sacrificing his own daughter for some wind to get you all to Troy to wage a war exclusively to defend your honor? Oh, right, any sane person would do that, and the fact that all the other versions of Agamemnon are pretty keen to go to war rather than save his daughter's life says a bit more about the so-called true Agamemnon. Anyway, there's a lot of distrust there, and Menelaus is an enormous dick to Agamemnon's servant before Agamemnon finally steps in, and
32:42 Liv Albert? to quote the wonderful Ash, who has prepared the notes to help me write today's episode, thus begins the bickering contest between the two brothers.
32:52 Liv Albert? Accurate. There's a lot of back and forth one-liners as they argue about who was right and who was wrong. Menelaus intercepted a private letter, Agamemnon's offended, but the letter was reversing an earlier decision that Agamemnon made with Menelaus, so Menelaus feels like he's in the right. A lot of casual back and forth about a topic that should be taken pretty fucking seriously. Interestingly, eventually Menelaus begins to recount his version of the events that led up to this point. He's saying that Agamemnon shouldn't be allowed to change his mind, that quote, "A man, unless he's a villain, should not change his ways when he succeeds."
33:33 Liv Albert? But he goes on to recall Agamemnon's position earlier, when they first learned that winds were not in their favor. And while it sounds to me like it's the opposite of the claims Agamemnon made in his first monologue, Menelaus says, quote, "You were downcast, miserable, because you would not be commander of a thousand ships and bring war to Priam's land." So Agamemnon now seems to have wanted to be the leader, as we can all expect, based on literally every other thing we know about the man. Though he's said the opposite. He's lamented the position of his servant, said he wished he wasn't a leader of anything.
34:13 Liv Albert? Menelaus goes on to recall a conversation where Agamemnon explicitly asked Menelaus what he should do. What could he do to keep from losing his leadership over the Greeks? To, quote, "Keep from being deprived of command and losing your renown." And this, Menelaus says, is when Chalcis told Agamemnon to sacrifice his daughter, that doing so would give them the wind they need. Menelaus says, quote, "You were delighted and gladly undertook to sacrifice the child of your own free will."
34:49 Liv Albert? Fucking Agamemnon, you guys, I knew I shouldn't have believed him to be sympathetic or believable. What a fucking dick. But then, I mean, who to believe? Honestly, though, I find it comforting. I don't know that I could have lived in a world where I sympathize with Agamemnon. So who's the baddie, really? I mean, it's both of them. Agamemnon for agreeing eagerly and Menelaus for pushing him to do it now, once he's changed his mind. Man, am I right? Always sacrificing their daughters.
35:16 Liv Albert? Finally, finally, there's a brief respite in Agamemnon and Menelaus's brotherly squabbles over, you know, sacrificing Agamemnon's daughter, killing her, killing a young woman just for a bit of wind, to take armies to a city they plan to wage war against just because Menelaus is feeling a little stung that his wife left him for a foreigner.
35:40 Liv Albert? As I've made pretty clear, I've always hated Agamemnon because he's really an enormous ridiculous asshole, but truly, Menelaus is giving him a run for his money in this play. I mean, fuck you, Agamemnon, for wanting to lead an army in the war that badly, and fuck you, Menelaus, just get over it. She doesn't want you, she wants the hot Orlando Bloom from the days of Lord of the Rings, and you just need to get over it and not kill your niece because you're embarrassed your wife left you.
36:10 Liv Albert? Where was I? Oh, right. Once these fucking brothers are finished with their asshole fights over who is the bigger asshole, then, well, a messenger arrives.
36:22 Liv Albert? The messenger arrives to announce the arrival of Clytemnestra and Iphigenia.
36:30 Liv Albert? Agamemnon was too late, his servant was too late. Clytemnestra and Iphigenia have arrived in Aulis, prepared for the wedding, expecting a wedding. Iphigenia, the lovely and kind young woman, is there with her beloved mother, expecting the best. They're there for Iphigenia's happily ever after with the best of the Greeks, the most important and impressive of the Greeks, the 2004 Brad Pitt of them all, Achilles.
37:13 Liv Albert? Fuck.
37:29 Liv Albert? Well, my beloved nerds, did I expect that this episode would exist without any real reference to the character of Iphigenia? No. Was the wild Euripide and Agamemnon just too weird and fascinating to gloss over? Absolutely. What a roller coaster this episode has been. Ups and downs, we believe Agamemnon, we think he's an asshole, Menelaus is also an asshole. I really feel like I got to pull back to the roots of this podcast with that. The Troy references helped. The thing that's so fascinating about the Greek tragedies is the way they choose to change the more well-known myths. But even more than that, it's the way their interpretations are then often the only thing we have.
38:13 Liv Albert? Like, we don't have a lot about these moments at Atlas. We know the basics of what happened, it's referenced elsewhere, but this is the most detailed and suddenly Agamemnon is complex? It's fascinating. What did the tragedians change and why? Is the question I will ask myself forever when it comes to these stories that don't exist in detail elsewhere? Because, think of it as a movie adaptation of something like Troy. Perfect example for why I'm so fascinated by this. The movie Troy is ostensibly a retelling of the Iliad, yet we open with Agamemnon, the warmonger, taking over Thessaly. That's not a thing. Achilles and Patroclus are cousins, there's a big age gap, and it's a mentor-style relationship?
38:58 Liv Albert? Say what you want about Achilles and Patroclus, but it wasn't that. Menelaus dies in Troy, there's a Sword of Troy. So many messy bullshit additions and changes by the world of 2004. That's what the playwrights could have been doing with these plays, and often, we don't know. It wasn't their job to tell the myths as they were understood at the time, it was their job to put on an exciting play. So who the fuck knows what they changed? Anyway, clearly I'm rambling at this point, but it just fascinates me to no end to imagine what they knew back then that we don't know now. Time travel, man, can we get on that before the entire planet is on fire and nothing matters anymore?
39:43 Liv Albert? Also, let's stop using fossil fuels, am I right? Thank you all so much for listening, for being enormous nerds who want to hear me ramble on my retellings of ancient tragedies. Retelling the plays is an extra thrill for me because so often, theater is so inaccessible, it's so hard to see adaptations of these works, that more often than not, they're just totally left behind. I don't think I've ever seen a live adaptation of a Greek play, and I've seen a decent number of plays. So I'm just excited I can spread some of these stories, especially Euripides, because, oh, how I love him. You're all the best. I'm Liv, and I love this shit, because of course I do, it's fucking awesome.
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Previous Conversations: It's All Greek to Me! Ancient History 101 w/ Alexandra Sills Next Introducing... You Are Odysseus by L Jenkinson Brown Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated