Pod Insights Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! | Greek Mythology & the Ancient Mediterranean Conversations: It's All Greek to Me! Ancient History 101 w/ Alexandra Sills About this episode Liv chats with Alexandra Sills about her new podcast with the Memory Collective, Ancient History 101. Subscribe to Ancient History 101 wherever you get your podcasts https://linktr.ee/ancienthistory101podcast or learn more https://open.acast.com/networks/67a2a8858d79caff8e7693ee/shows/67a1934c95d7c2516aeb49a7/episodes/www.ancienthistory101.org. Pre-order Liv's Odyssey adaptation (!!!), The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest!
CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events.
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Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand).
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Liv Albert? Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.
1:05 Liv Albert? Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby! And I am your host, as always, Liv. And today I'm here with another conversation episode, and the intro is going to be short and sweet because the conversation says it all. Today I have on fan favorite, the queen of gladiators and weird aspects of the Olympics, Alexandra Sills. And we are talking about Alexandra's new show, Ancient History 101, which is a fresh new show from the Memory Collective. And I am so excited about it. We had so much fun. And I hope you all go check out this new show because we're really excited to be bringing stuff that is independent and intentional and, you know,
1:49 Liv Albert? meant to be accessible to all and appreciated by all. I don't know, we're having, we're having a great time. So come and check out that new show. You can find Ancient History 101 at any of the links in the episode's description or wherever you find your podcasts.
2:22 Liv Albert? Conversations. It's all Greek to me. Ancient History 101 with Alexandra Sells.
2:43 Liv Albert? I hate that my camera doesn't work. Okay, this is how we're starting it. Um, to the listeners, I'm going to express my quick fury. You, you don't understand this because you're, can't watch this anyway, because I never released the video, but normally we do at least have access to seeing the other person in these conversations, but not today because Anchovy Jr., the gremlin cross cat that I brought back from Greece, pushed a mug of coffee onto my computer and it broke my camera and also apparently the port that will accept a, a external camera. We're doing great over here. I'm an adult and I'm here with Alexandra Sells.
3:28 Speaker 01 Hello.
3:29 Liv Albert? Best known for, um, well gladiators, if I'm being accurate, but if I'm being, um, my favorite thing, I would say you're best known for explaining to me how the men during the Olympics would tie their.
3:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, I know exactly what you're gonna say.
3:48 Liv Albert? It would tie their business in a tight little bow.
3:51 Speaker 01 The dog leash.
3:53 Liv Albert? Yeah. And I'll never forget that. I have absolutely shared that with a great many people since you told me, so.
4:01 Speaker 01 Awesome.
4:01 Liv Albert? Thank you so much.
4:02 Speaker 01 If that is my, my impact. I'll be happy.
4:07 Liv Albert? I should say, actually, this is a great time for me to point out, I believe, and I should have mentioned it to you earlier, but you were definitely the inspiration in one of the, on one of the spreads of my Odyssey book, because we do a whole double page on the games that they hold at the Theatres, you know, before Odysseus tells his story. Yeah. And so we did a whole, we're like, kids would like to know about, you know, these games and the ancient Olympics and everything. So there's like a little, we have these little boxes that have extra fun facts. And one of them is that they would be naked and oiled up.
4:44 Liv Albert? I was so happy to be able to tell children that the Olympics were originally performed not only naked, but also slathered in olive oil.
4:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, with the little bow on their ding-dongs.
4:58 Liv Albert? Exactly. That I did not, I didn't get that into the kids book, unfortunately.
5:02 Speaker 01 One day, one day we'll get it into a book, just maybe not that one.
5:05 Liv Albert? Yeah, exactly. I just think maybe that's for like, when you're 15 plus. Seems uncomfortable for anyone to hear. And anyways, I actually think that's the perfect way to introduce this, this conversation, which is that we're talking about all things ancient history with a specific reason, which is that there's a new show that we're going to talk about. But generally also, why would I, that was a whole, my brain going on a little walk. And then I came back to myself, how am I going to do that? Okay. Is that we, we're talking all things ancient history because there's a new show. Would you, would you like to tell me a little bit about the show that is new and that we're talking about today?
5:49 Speaker 01 So the show, it's a new podcast. It's called Ancient History 101, which kind of gives immediately the vibes where we're back to basics show, going right back to the beginning. So even if you've never heard of anything from the ancient world before, you're not going to feel out of your depth because we're taking you right back to the basics with the essentials and then working our way up from there.
6:10 Liv Albert? And you're covering like everything. Sorry, I was going to, I want to keep hearing, but I also am so excited that we're covering everything.
6:18 Speaker 01 We are covering everything, mainly because I have such strong ADHD that I can't pick one thing. I've got decision paralysis. You know, I could have, I could have done something on my own little areas of expertise, but that's really lonely. And I think I'd start getting bored of the sound of my own voice. So instead of that, and this is very selfish of me, because I'm not at university anymore. And I really, really miss lectures. I really miss chatting about the ancient world with experts. So what I figured I'd do is instead of me just yapping on, I'll invite all of my very, very clever academic friends to come and talk to me.
7:02 Speaker 01 And I get free lessons for as long as the podcast lasts, no tuition fees. I get lectures for life, eternal student. Yes, that's the plan.
7:13 Liv Albert? No, I love that so much. And I mean, obviously, I know what this show is because I have been hearing about it for quite some time now. But even just, but hearing the way you described it just there, it makes me think of why I've kept up the conversation episodes as long as I have. And also simultaneously, why the conversation episodes are, are like the place where I diverge, dive like completely from mythology, right? Because I also want, I love when other people come on and teach me about those things. But I also am really, um, specific with what I do or don't care about. And there are so many things that I know
7:52 Liv Albert? people would love if I talked about, but thanks, but I'm not going to. And thankfully you are. And that's why they'll become obsessed with your show where you're talking about a lot of the historical stuff that I won't touch. Along with other just generally like, yeah, I mean, I really don't love Rome. Um, but yeah, and, and like, and I just think things that because you're touching on so many such broad topics, you're able to like, really go, I mean, anywhere I, I want to hear about some of the, the topics you've already recorded. But, um, I don't know if that's like throwing you too much in the deep end of like, do you, I mean, do you have a favorite already? Do you have like a weirdest anything? Or what are you most excited about?
8:35 Speaker 01 We have such a broad selection of episodes already, because what I figured was, I mean, I've, I've done two degrees now. And at the end of them, I thought, okay, I'm going to be an expert in everything, right? But there is so much that even two degrees won't cover. And I realized that if I wanted to cover all of it myself, I'd have to just go around every university in the entirety of Great Britain, just hoovering up degrees, trying to cover every play, every biography, every event, you know, every war.
9:06 Liv Albert? Yeah, when you want to know like everything instead of just the one thing to specialize in, like that's when university becomes, it's not really what you necessarily need, if that's what you want, like that's how I feel too, you know, I like, I hear about, you know, I thought, I think about doing an M A or a P H D and then I think, but I'd have to be too specific. And my favorite thing is like how much I get to learn about everything.
9:29 Speaker 01 And this is, this is a really important thing, right? Is that every ancient historian, every classicist, every archaeologist, the higher you get up the academic path, the more you're expected to narrow your focus down. I mean, I, I read about someone who wrote an entire P H D thesis on the word the in Greek.
9:53 Speaker 01 And the very thought of that to my little neurodivergent mind.
9:58 Liv Albert? That's a nightmare.
9:59 Speaker 01 Horrifying.
10:00 Liv Albert? Nightmare. Also though, it because I do still have that little neurodivergent mind, like in ancient Greek is the just T O? Do you know if it was that? It must have been more than that because like.
10:12 Speaker 01 No idea. I mean, as soon as I heard that it existed, I made a point not to search it out and find more information because why would you? So that's another reason why I'm doing that. I could go further and narrow my focus down even further. But that would be ignoring so much that I still want to know about, so much that I still haven't covered particularly. So why not do this instead? I get to cover everything that I want and I get everyone to listen in as well as an added bonus. So it's it's very selfish of me.
10:46 Liv Albert? Yeah.
10:47 Speaker 01 Really selfish.
10:48 Liv Albert? I realize by the time that this episode airs, um, which because we both have ADHD, we only like talked in circles around before turning on those microphones. So we'll cover again at the end. Um, but you know, by the time this one, uh, this episode airs, we'll have already played your episode with Owen Reese on Xenophon. Which is, I think that was a perfect place to start or and share on on my show because it's kind of melding all of these different. I mean, it's Greek, but it's also like the type of history that I never know what to ask about. Like, I'm so glad you're doing this because these are things where I feel too out of my depth in order and to have them on my show. So.
11:28 Speaker 01 I mean, I think this episode with Owen is perfect, not just because he's one of my favorite people in the world.
11:33 Liv Albert? He's delightful, delightful.
11:35 Speaker 01 I love the guy.
11:36 Liv Albert? Friend of the show, been on two episodes to the listeners.
11:38 Speaker 01 Don't tell him that I said that because his ego will get big, but it is is the perfect episode to kind of encapsulate what I want to do with Ancient History 101. Because for a start, I think before you can read any writing from an ancient author, you really need to get to grips with who that author is, what they were doing, what their life was like, the context of what's going on around them. And that's what we're doing with this episode. Before we do any episodes on the Hellenica or the Anabasis, we're getting to grips with who Xenophon was, what he was doing, and how his experiences and beliefs affected
12:17 Speaker 01 what he wrote and how he wrote them and what he was trying to say, which is really interesting. And I think sometimes we forget to do that with ancient authors.
12:26 Liv Albert? Absolutely. We get, we forget too to like, I mean, I with Xenophon is a good example of of something in this realm, which is that like, we don't look at the timelines. We don't look at, I'm talking in circles. This is so bad. We don't look at like the when a person is writing in relation to when the events or we don't always, that's something that is so easy to like, get forgotten, you know? And Xenophon is one where it's like, he's writing about the stuff he more directly.
12:52 Speaker 01 Really, really keen to kind of include.
12:56 Liv Albert? Yeah.
12:57 Speaker 01 Because his, his whole biography is like an adventure novel.
13:02 Speaker 01 Which I don't think gets talked about. Enough. I mean, again, two degrees. I've done two and we didn't really touch on Xenophon at all, apart from one piece, which probably wasn't even written by him. So it was great for me to talk about Xenophon with Owen, but it's going to be great for everyone as well to realise that there's this writer who's incredible and he doesn't get enough credit. And it's just nice to, you know, shine a bit of light. Away from, you know, military historians will know all about Xenophon.
13:31 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
13:32 Speaker 01 But what Owen taught me was that he's so much more than a military historian.
13:37 Liv Albert? Mm hmm. Well, that's great because that's why I haven't been interested. And I will say that I have only one degree, but I also did not have any interaction with Xenophon. Yeah. Except for, I'm sure in my like survey Greek history course, but otherwise.
13:51 Speaker 01 Well, this is the thing, because you can pay thousands and thousands and thousands and spend years at university, but there's still only so much that you can cram in.
14:00 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
14:01 Speaker 01 So you've got all of this interest. If you go to university, you've got all of this interest and you're not going to cover all of it. When you leave, you're still interested. Where are you going to find it now that you're not studying all the time?
14:11 Liv Albert? Mm hmm. On a free podcast.
14:13 Speaker 01 On a free podcast. And if you.
14:15 Liv Albert? No more spending money in university.
14:17 Speaker 01 Oh, my God, I am in so much debt.
14:19 Liv Albert? Or you could do both. Both is fine if you really want to.
14:22 Speaker 01 You you can do both, but we're doing it for free. But also, if you're unable to go to university for whatever reason, or you've chosen to go to university to study something that, I don't know, might actually get you a proper job with proper money at the end of it.
14:36 Liv Albert? You also want to learn about classics. Here we go.
14:39 Speaker 01 But you also want to, or or you're a major in something else and you've just got this one class and you need to get some context pretty damn fast, then this is going to be a show that covers all of that. It doesn't matter who you are, your your level of background knowledge, because we start every single episode with, well, who is this? What is it? Let's start with the absolute basics and just build up our knowledge. It means that it doesn't matter if you've never heard of it. It doesn't, it's not gonna affect anything. You're not gonna feel out of your depth. You're not gonna feel intimidated. We're gonna walk you through every single one of these topics. And by the end of it, I'm hoping that people who would never dream of picking up the Aeneid
15:22 Speaker 01 are gonna think, yeah, okay, I, I, I do feel ready. I do feel like I can do this and I'm not gonna feel out of my depth. Because there are some of these books, I mean, some of the texts, the primary sources, some of the history books that have been written about them. They can be pretty scary. They're big, dense language, loads of stuff that you, you feel like you have to know to make sense of all of it. So we're gonna be there with everyone, right from the beginning, walking, walking everyone through it and teaching you how to do it. So you don't get scared.
15:56 Liv Albert? I love that. And okay, so other like, I, I don't want people to think that we're just talking things dudes like Xenophon. Because, you know, interesting guy, I'm sure, but like, military historian.
16:13 Liv Albert? Yeah, like what, I mean, I know I've seen the list, but thankfully I don't remember them all immediately. But like, how wide ranging, like what are the, some of the topics that you have coming up? The fun thing is too, like listeners behind the curtain, we have been talking about this on and off for like a couple of years now and been trying to get this
16:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:31 Liv Albert? up in the works. And I mean, there's been lots of different reasons, but this year or over the past year, Alexander's been able to put together a bunch of episodes and I've been able to offer podcast hosting. And so finally, like, here we are. Um, but what that means is that there's so many recorded up front, which I'm so jealous of and I'll think about for the rest of time. Um, so what are some fun things you have?
16:56 Speaker 01 I mean, yeah, so there's a bit of military history because again, this is
16:59 Liv Albert? We need that too. It's fine. Yeah.
17:01 Speaker 01 Cause military history is something that doesn't happen often in school and university syllabi. It's something that there's a load of enthusiasts about, but it's really difficult to get like formal education in. No problem.
17:14 Liv Albert? It's also, it's also something that could really benefit from having resources, like specifically this type podcast, what video, whatever resources that are not by like
17:29 Liv Albert? Bros, like military history bros. You know, like, I'm sure that there's a time and a place, but especially when it comes to military history, like that can lead down some different roads. And so I think it's really important to have an option that is a bit more objective, that is coming at it from like just a different lens than that, you know?
17:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I I listened to some podcasts with some of my guests that they've done elsewhere, some videos that they've done elsewhere, lectures that they've done elsewhere. And I soon realized that the questions that I am asking as a woman.
18:06 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
18:07 Speaker 01 They're pretty different from some of the questions that they usually get asked.
18:11 Liv Albert? I can imagine.
18:12 Speaker 01 Yeah. There's a lot more focus. For instance, I really want to know what happens to civilians.
18:18 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
18:19 Speaker 01 When all of these wars are happening, I'm I'm less interested in the great generals and their wonderful deeds, yada, yada, yada.
18:25 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
18:26 Speaker 01 I'm a general, I kill those people. Yeah, great. I want to know more about the aftermath, the ripple effect of how it affects ordinary people, women, children. Because, you know, looking around the world now.
18:39 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
18:41 Speaker 01 We're living in a in a period which is really interesting in a way because we get access to the experiences of the civilians in war zones, far more than anyone else ever has.
18:56 Speaker 01 And because we're seeing it in our phones, you know, doom scrolling every single day, seeing all of this. It does bring up questions. Well, what was it like in the ancient world?
19:08 Liv Albert? Yeah.
19:09 Speaker 01 How did they treat women and children? I'm not going to tell you that the answer is always particularly pleasant or something that we should be emulating.
19:18 Speaker 01 But I think, again, it's it's looking at history that's been talked about a lot before, but from a slightly different angle, to get a slightly different perspective, which is something that I'm really proud of with the military history episodes.
19:32 Liv Albert? Yeah, I imagine that's where it really stands out.
19:35 Speaker 01 We've also got literature episodes, which um I'm calling creation, content, context, because every single episode is going to cover all of them. So why was this play or poem written?
19:50 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
19:52 Speaker 01 Basic summary of the synopsis and the characters, where have we seen them before? Is this a sequel? Is it a retelling? What's happening? And then why was it written? Who was it written for? The intended audience? What are the things that are happening around the writer at the time that are influencing what they're writing? Is he trying to give you a message? That kind of thing.
20:14 Speaker 01 We've got biographies of famous and infamous people, and I'm very proud to say, including in the first series, we have a biography of a very famous Roman woman. I say famous, she should be more well known, Fulvia.
20:30 Liv Albert? Oh, Fulvia.
20:31 Speaker 01 Amazing episode with Jane Dracott.
20:33 Liv Albert? I was gonna say, is it with Jane Dracott? I certainly hope so.
20:37 Speaker 01 I love her.
20:39 Liv Albert? Episode on Fulvia with Jane Dracott on the Memory Collective Podcast Network, and I love it for all of us. I'm willing to bet that we all get different things out of the conversation.
20:49 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, absolutely. We had a great discussion, so I'm really looking forward to that one coming out. We've got some.
20:56 Liv Albert? And I inadvertently dropped ours back to back.
21:03 Speaker 01 We're gonna have like blow by blow accounts of events that changed the world. So not only what happens, but cause and effect and the aftermath. Again, the ripple effect, how is this affecting the rest of the ancient world?
21:17 Liv Albert? Because it repeats itself, everyone. History does. And the thing is, is that if we're always learning about it from the perspective of the people who didn't give a shit about the everyday people who were harmed, well, then we're never gonna learn from anything.
21:32 Speaker 01 Exactly.
21:34 Speaker 01 We've got some discussions about, so for instance, places. I'm gonna be talking about different sites, different buildings, monument types, what they were used for, different cultural kind of practices and festivals, things like that.
21:51 Liv Albert? Yeah.
21:51 Speaker 01 So, yeah, it's all going really well. I'm really excited because I essentially just get to have fun every single time we record an episode. It's just me listening going, oh, my God, that's amazing.
22:03 Speaker 01 Um, yeah, it's it's been fantastic so far. We've got a really varied bunch of episodes, which I'm I'm so proud of. And what's really great is we have a really diverse group of experts as well.
22:16 Liv Albert? Yeah. Any other favorites? Uh, I mean, obviously, there's gonna be lots, but I'm just curious about other episodes and also guests.
22:26 Speaker 01 I mean, there's, there is so much.
22:28 Liv Albert? A lot of crossover with this show, I know.
22:30 Speaker 01 There, there's so many, mainly because I've gone a bit du lali and recorded so many in advance.
22:36 Liv Albert? A year's worth. I'm so jealous.
22:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, I've, I've got enough episodes up until the beginning of October, I think. So, yeah. Yeah, it's a lot.
22:48 Liv Albert? It's so good.
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26:12 Speaker 01 I have a great episode with Mike Beer talking about Augustus. Because we've got all of these kind of misconceptions about Augustus and Mike explains that there's a different Augustus for every person who's looking at him. So you can take what you want from Augustus and he kind of seems to have built this into his personality deliberately so that he is everything to everyone. Which was a really interesting way of putting it. And one of the things that I wanted this show to do was to talk about people who don't get enough attention, like Fulvia. But as Mike says, you cannot understand a single Roman emperor without having an understanding of Augustus first.
26:57 Speaker 01 Because every single emperor was either trying to be a copy paste or to do things radically different. So if you don't understand Augustus first, you cannot understand any Roman emperor. And I thought that was a really good point that he made.
27:13 Liv Albert? Yeah.
27:13 Speaker 01 Makes perfect sense.
27:14 Liv Albert? Because he was like a blueprint.
27:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely.
27:17 Liv Albert? Yeah.
27:18 Speaker 01 So if you're going to understand what a Roman emperor is, you've got to go back to the source, right?
27:23 Liv Albert? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, I mean, that's very, um.
27:30 Liv Albert? I was gonna say this very interesting and I feel like I've said that a thousand times. So instead, I'm just gonna let you keep going.
27:37 Liv Albert? Do you have more episodes? I'm just thinking of another, like, few to name drop for people of what's coming, like, topic wise or guests.
27:44 Speaker 01 Okay, so I had a great episode about the gods in epic poetry with Laura Jenkinson Brown.
27:51 Liv Albert? Ooh, friend of the show.
27:53 Speaker 01 Friend of the show, yeah. She's fantastic. And she's also going to be doing an episode for me in the near future about how epics are built. As well. So that when we go to read them and study them, we can say, ah, yes, I know exactly what that motif is there to do. I know what this style is called. Understanding how the genre was written. I think is a really important thing to have. So we're gonna have a basic episode explaining some of the terminology, for instance, like what is Cleos? What is Anastos? So that's gonna be really fantastic. Really looking forward to that one as well.
28:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, there's so much that First Punic War with Brett Devereaux is fantastic because at some point in the middle, I just go bananas because he mentions chickens, one of my favorite stories. I was kind of sat there waiting for Brett, say, say the chicken story, say the chicken story. And he said it, I was like, yes. Um, so there's that.
28:54 Liv Albert? There's a chicken story. That's exciting.
28:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, you'll, you'll have to tune in.
28:58 Liv Albert? I, yeah, exactly.
28:58 Speaker 01 I'm not giving any spoilers.
29:00 Liv Albert? No, I won't even ask.
29:02 Speaker 01 Oh, my God. Seasick chickens. It's amazing. And, um, there's an awesome episode with Rul Knijnen Dyke, who, um, talks me through the thirty tyrants that ruled in Athens just after the end of the Peloponnesian War, and about how Athenians were able to rise up in rebellion, defeat those thirty tyrants, and take their democracy back. And if that isn't a hundred percent relevant.
29:32 Liv Albert? I think it's somewhat relevant.
29:33 Speaker 01 To the world right now. I mean.
29:36 Liv Albert? Yeah.
29:38 Speaker 01 So.
29:38 Liv Albert? Yeah.
29:39 Speaker 01 It's inspirational. It's aspirational. It's a really interesting way of looking at democracy and how fragile it is, but how, how much it needs to be fought for and defended.
29:50 Liv Albert? Yeah.
29:51 Speaker 01 And also, one of my favorite points that Rul made was that the Athenians managed to win their democracy back with the help of foreign immigrants.
30:06 Liv Albert? Do you hear that, America?
30:09 Speaker 01 Boom. Mic drop.
30:10 Liv Albert? Do you hear it?
30:12 Speaker 01 So.
30:12 Liv Albert? I know everyone listening probably already knows, but still.
30:16 Speaker 01 I mean, yeah. And again, this is a period, I mean, for a lot of people who are studying ancient history at university, they'll do a lot of fifth century Athens, but.
30:31 Liv Albert? Because it's the best century.
30:32 Speaker 01 I mean, it is the best century. There's so much happening. But right at the end of it, a lot of courses, a lot of classes kind of cut off before the thirty tyrants.
30:42 Liv Albert? Yeah, I had no idea.
30:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:44 Liv Albert? Because I really like the fifth century.
30:47 Speaker 01 Fifth century rules, but what I'm learning from my guests is that fourth century was also pretty spectacular. And again, this is all stuff that it doesn't get enough attention, not just in in university classrooms, but there aren't documentaries about fourth century Greek world. There are about Alexander, but what happened between the Peloponnesian War and Alexander? Well, thankfully, I'm going to have loads of episodes explaining exactly what is happening in between.
31:15 Liv Albert? Well, and that is what is so exciting about the the fact that, you know, we still have, we have this technology to that anybody, you know, an expert like yourself who wants to can just start sharing it because that's the thing about, you know, documentaries is that they are so rarely are on the things that we really want to learn about because in order for them to get greenlit, they have to be the thing that like however many thousands and tens of thousands and people want to watch it, but or what they imagine they want to watch. And so it's always like Cleopatra and Alexander and Titanic and.
31:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, Julius Caesar. And I mean, in in the U.S.A., I think in the last 12 months, I think we've had something like seven Pompeii documentaries.
32:00 Liv Albert? Wow. Yeah, people love it.
32:02 Speaker 01 Nothing else.
32:04 Liv Albert? No, exactly. And like, there's just so much else. And that's what like a podcast like this is so good for and cool when people want to just put it out there.
32:12 Speaker 01 I mean, I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent because I want to talk about, oh, what's her name? Dakota Johnson, the actress, because she was talking about one of the shows that she was in. I think it was a Marvel show because everything is a Marvel show now.
32:25 Liv Albert? Yeah, she was in a notoriously terrible Marvel one. I did not see it. I just heard that it was.
32:29 Speaker 01 Spiders, I don't know.
32:30 Liv Albert? Yeah, Madame Web. I think I've heard it's like one of the worst they've ever made. I don't know anything else.
32:35 Speaker 01 It was the quote that she said sometime in the press tour that really grabs my attention is that shows like that now are made by committee. They're trying to create shows for algorithms. They're dumbing down shows because people are scrolling through phones while watching them. So you have to make everything really simple and repeat yourself over and over again. And we thought, yeah, because that is what is happening in a lot of television documentaries right now. And I grew up watching documentaries all the time. It was one of my main ways of engaging with the ancient world. I've seen their decline. You turn on the TV now and every, everything is some pseudo archaeologist saying, oh, it was aliens.
33:18 Liv Albert? Yeah.
33:19 Speaker 01 Or, yes, of course Atlantis definitely existed and we're not going to give you any information about why that's, you know, not true.
33:27 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
33:27 Speaker 01 Because I think producers are patronizing and they assume that the audience is not intelligent enough to appreciate a wide variety of topics that they won't appreciate nuance and context. And we know that this isn't true.
33:45 Liv Albert? It's the capitalism too, though, right? It's they just want the thing that can make the most money the fastest.
33:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:51 Liv Albert? And that's, that's why something like that comes, goes through. But you're right, like, people want the other stuff. It's just that the companies think they'll have to work harder for it.
34:01 Speaker 01 I think one of the reasons that I really wanted to start the show was because in, in the last year or so, I actually managed to achieve one of my lifelong ambitions, which is to be a guest expert on a TV documentary.
34:18 Liv Albert? Hell, yeah.
34:19 Speaker 01 And I'm not going to mention the title of it because I don't want anyone to watch it. But it was something that was, it's, it's my research niche. I'm literally doing academic research on it right now. And they sat me down for the interview and they said, we want context. You know, if, if this is a myth, if this is a misconception, you tell us. We can deal with it. We want to be honest with our audience. So I sat down for about four hours and I talked context.
34:51 Speaker 01 Because that's my job. And the documentary came out and they had cut my part down to about ninety seconds where I say something almost pointless. And then they got a load of, of academics who don't study that area to just.
35:09 Speaker 01 Speculate wildly? And I realised that it's because they don't want the truth, because they think the audience can't handle it, they can't handle a discussion where we disappoint them by saying this myth isn't true, sorry.
35:24 Liv Albert? Yeah, they just think that they won't, I mean, I really unfortunately think it just keeps coming down to the money, right? Because they just think that that doesn't sell and you're like, that's fucking stupid. Like.
35:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, I was so disappointed because I'd been sold on this idea that, yes, we want your expertise, we want you to give a nuanced point of view, and they cut everything.
35:44 Liv Albert? Yeah.
35:44 Speaker 01 And every, I mean, there was one expert on the show who I adore and did a very good job, the others, mm, it was just, you know, speculation and we think this could have happened and we're going to blow it out of proportion so that we give you this kind of distorted, idealized view of what we think the audience wants. And then the very next day after I recorded that, I gave a lecture at a museum on exactly the same topic and I gave them all of the context and I gave them all of the nuance and they loved it.
36:20 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
36:21 Speaker 01 And that's when I realised, the producers of TV shows and to some extent the publishers of, of books that we see in bookstores, you know, for the general public, they're patronising and they, they are so.
36:39 Speaker 01 Oh, it's disappointing to see.
36:42 Liv Albert? Mm hmm.
36:42 Speaker 01 That they assume that the audience has no imagination, no intelligence, that they can't handle a wide variety of topics, they know that Julius Caesar sells, so they just give us Julius Caesar over and over and over again, same with Pompeii over and over, Atlantis over and over again because they've seen it sell in the past, so it's going to sell again, right?
37:32 Speaker 01 So I thought to myself, if no one is going to invite me to do a documentary like that for television, how else can I do it where I have control over what I'm saying? And where I can make sure that there's some level of quality control with academic integrity?
37:51 Liv Albert? No.
37:52 Speaker 01 Because my god, I can't, I can't watch TV documentaries now.
37:58 Liv Albert? No, I, I've, I've given up on it. I mean, I've never, I was never that big into them because they are too slow for my brain. I need to be able to like rush through everything.
38:10 Liv Albert? But even still, like, you know, the few, I just feel like it's all dragged out to just
38:16 Liv Albert? and still not even, I mean, I guess I just haven't tried to watch historical ones either. But I did, there was a time when I was in very early, very early stages talks with a big documentary network. And they, they, you know, they were saying that they wanted a show and whatever. And then every time I pitched an idea, they'd be like, well, what is it? Is there just like, is there a big, like, some mystery that could be solved? Or like some dumb? And I was just like, no, this is like clearly not, you don't want what I'm going to do. Like, I'm not going to give you a big history because there aren't any that like are, are the thing that you want. Because that's pseudo-history and pseudoscience.
38:57 Speaker 01 Exactly. Yeah.
38:58 Liv Albert? Yeah. People always say like, conspiracy theorists love to say like, the scientists don't want you to know. And it's like, every time you talk to a real scientist, no, scientists actually desperately want you to know.
39:10 Speaker 01 They will not shut up about it if you just let them talk, right?
39:14 Liv Albert? Like, if the conspiracy involves an academic hiding research from you, it's a lie. It's bullshit.
39:21 Speaker 01 Exactly. And there's the other side of the coin as well, is that in my country, I'm from Great Britain.
39:30 Speaker 01 There's a very specific idea of who an ancient historian is.
39:36 Speaker 01 Which is incredibly posh. And you only went to Oxford or Cambridge, Oxford or Cambridge, which we know as Oxford locally. Um, that you're really posh, you have a cut class English accent, you're upper class. And that's who an ancient historian is. Which is kind of true in a way. Because where I live, it's very rare for ancient history to be taught in schools past the age of about nine. Which then, knock on effect, makes it very difficult for people to find it at university because they won't have the relevant qualifications from high school.
40:17 Speaker 01 And that knock on effect also means that the kids that go to very private schools that cost thousands of pounds a year to go to. They're the only ones getting access to this topic. They're the only ones getting experience in this topic. They dominate. Uh, in university classrooms and then they dominate in the faculty. And talking with all of the friends that I've made as I've been studying and working. There are so many historians that don't fit that mould. But who have such wonderful, vital things that they want to say. Well, if the big channels and the big publishers aren't going to let them say it, then I will.
40:59 Speaker 01 It's gonna be a smaller platform, maybe, at least to start off with, but my god. There is no one way for an ancient historian to be. We are so many identities, so many backgrounds, so many walks of life. Just like the ancient world was, for instance. So, one of the things that I really want to do is try and provide a space for. People with regional accents, people from the working class, people from all genders and sexualities and ethnicities that don't normally. Get a platform. Sod it, I'll give you a platform. I want to give you a platform and I don't want to give a platform to people who we hear from all the time anyway. Because you can hear them anywhere.
41:45 Liv Albert? Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's especially I know in the UK, you know, there's like the same four names over and over. So it's it's kind of nice.
41:51 Speaker 01 I'd I'd go as far as to say that those four names are down to three now.
41:55 Liv Albert? I was gonna say, I'm not sure I could name out four, but.
41:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's it's bad. And again, it comes down to uh, the people who are organizing these documentaries and books and talks, assuming that people will only spend money on purchasing tickets and books, et cetera. If they recognize the name of the historian. And not what they're talking about.
42:21 Speaker 01 Which to me is the wrong way around. It shouldn't matter if you know who the historian is. If what you're interested in should be what they're talking about, not who's doing the talking.
42:34 Speaker 01 But again, it's the assumption that if you don't have some kind of familiarity with who's talking, then they're not going to part with any money.
42:43 Liv Albert? Yeah, I mean, it's this, yeah, it's the capitalism. It's cap, everything.
42:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:47 Liv Albert? I could keep saying it over and over. But yeah, you know, it's just this idea of like what does and doesn't sell and how everything has to be about the maximum revenue rather than quality of of anything else.
42:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:58 Liv Albert? It's just unfortunate, but thankfully there are still podcasts, even though the celebrities are dominating here too. There are still podcasts and we all can, you know, we can, we can share this information and that is super cool. And, yeah.
43:14 Speaker 01 So one of the the things that I'm proud of is that we have, uh, some of the guests are people that you will maybe know the names of. And I admire them greatly. They do great public work. They have a lot of integrity and I am very happy to have them on the show and very grateful that they've donated their time. But we've also got historians that you will have never heard of that are very early on in their careers, maybe. And also, you know, it's really interesting because there are so many PhD students and recent PhDs. And there aren't enough jobs for them all in universities. So where do they go after? If if if they don't get one of the very few
43:59 Speaker 01 jobs and it's like the academic Hunger Games.
44:04 Speaker 01 You're losing all of this knowledge. All of this expertise because it's got nowhere to go.
44:11 Speaker 01 Well, I'll have it. I'll have you on to talk about the show. So we have people who are in what we call alternative academia, which is where they're doing jobs that aren't necessarily teaching, but they are still researching and producing exceptional work. It's not what we would call being a university lecturer. But my god, these people are still experts. They still are wonderful speakers. So yeah, let's have you on as well. So it's breaking the mold of who an expert is. And it's not always someone of, you know, advanced age, who has an oak paneled office somewhere.
44:53 Liv Albert? Who's white?
44:55 Speaker 01 White. Posh. Went to an exceptionally posh school, full of other posh people. I can't stand that idea that that is all an ancient historian is.
45:09 Speaker 01 It's just lazy. And and it excludes so many wonderful people. So I am absolutely delighted that I'm going to be able to introduce people to these wonderful historians, archaeologists, museum professionals, that you might not ever hear of otherwise. Because the academic writing that they're doing maybe isn't targeted at a general audience, but these episodes definitely are.
45:35 Liv Albert? Well, and that is the best thing about having on people like this in at that point in their career specifically too, because I mean, there is so much new knowledge all the time and it is so hard to find too, like from, you know, obviously from the perspective of the academics, it's a great outlet, but also just as a listener, like there's so much to learn, but unless you have like your personal account to like to J store or something, you know, like you're really not getting access to things. And that's why. Why I love the conversations on my show. And so I'm just excited because you're basically doing, I mean, that with like more structure and and like
46:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:14 Liv Albert? more thought out. And I'm, it's, yeah, it's very exciting. I think it's gonna be very fun. And I know that especially listeners of my show are going to be very keen to, to tune in.
46:24 Speaker 01 I hope so. If only because we talk about Rome too, Liv. Rome matters.
46:29 Liv Albert? I know everyone else likes Rome, which is why other people can talk about it.
46:33 Speaker 01 And I love Rome.
46:35 Liv Albert? I know, I know.
46:36 Speaker 01 I can't choose between Greece and Rome. It's like asking me to choose my favorite leg. I can't do it.
46:41 Liv Albert? Some can. I can. And I have, and I do.
46:45 Speaker 01 Do you have a favorite leg, though?
46:47 Liv Albert? Leg? No.
46:48 Speaker 01 Exactly.
46:49 Liv Albert? I mean, if I had to pick a leg, sure, I will pick the one that has Medusa tattooed on it. Tattoos make things easier.
46:55 Speaker 01 See, even there, you're going the Greek way.
46:58 Liv Albert? I have a Minotaur. I have a, I have the bull right on, on my other leg. Thank you very much.
47:06 Speaker 01 Okay, fair enough.
47:08 Liv Albert? I am, I have Greek on both sides of my body.
47:14 Liv Albert? And actually some Latin, one of my earliest, my second tattoo ever was terribly translated Latin.
47:19 Speaker 01 Oh, I mean.
47:20 Liv Albert? You're welcome.
47:22 Speaker 01 If I had a penny for every historian I met with a, with a badly translated or odd tattoo, I'd be a millionaire. So it's fine.
47:30 Liv Albert? I mean, yeah, in my defense, it was like 21 years ago. So she made poorer decisions back then and respect.
47:38 Speaker 01 There you go.
47:39 Liv Albert? Yeah. My very first tattoo was an Egyptian thing. So I really, the Greek came quite late.
47:46 Liv Albert? In any case, this is not Liv's Tattoo Hour. Um, I, I'm so excited for the show, Asian History 101. I mean, I feel like you explained everything so beautifully and said so many nice things. Is there anything else you wanted to tell the listeners? Other than obviously where to find it? And now I have a bubble in my throat. So take it away.
48:09 Speaker 01 So you can find us online, ancienthistory101.org. We are launching on the Ides of March, which by the time this comes out, it will have gone anyway. We have launched.
48:19 Liv Albert? You will have already heard another episode on my podcast, so you'll be aware.
48:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:25 Speaker 01 And one of the great things about the website as well is that every episode will have its own page where each of our experts will have told us where we can do some further research and further reading and recommend some books. And even performances of some of the plays, they will recommend adaptations and video games and movies, novels.
48:50 Liv Albert? I love this. This is logistically stuff that I've wanted to do forever, but been completely incapable. So excited that you've managed it. This is exciting.
48:59 Speaker 01 I mean, when I lock into something, I tend to go off on the deep end.
49:05 Liv Albert? This is amazing.
49:08 Speaker 01 But yeah, it's gonna be good. I'm having a load of fun, so I can only guess that everyone else will enjoy listening as well. And it's it's for anyone who just wants to know a little bit more than just the stories.
49:22 Liv Albert? Yeah.
49:23 Speaker 01 Stories are important, but I think it's just as important to understand the context behind the stories. Whether we can work out whether these stories even happened the way that they that we think that they did. How how do we work out what actually happened? Because we certainly can't take any of the ancient writers for
49:47 Speaker 01 I mean, some of the things that they've said.
49:50 Liv Albert? They were all being completely honest. I don't know what you're talking about. Absolutely.
49:56 Speaker 01 We can take absolutely nothing at face value. And one of the best things about every single contributor so far, all of these wonderful experts have absolutely understood that they need to tell us a bit about.
50:12 Speaker 01 Why we can't take anything at face value and to teach us how not to, how to read between the lines, which I'm really proud of.
50:20 Liv Albert? My favorite thing about like being this deep in the study of the ancient world is just all of those little extra contextual bits and pieces and like, uh, I'm, yeah, I'm very excited.
50:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's a lot of people who tell the stories as narratives very well and they're very entertaining. And if you want to listen to that, that's great. You can go and find them. But for those of us who have always kind of wanted to go inside Willy Wonka's chocolate factory and see how it all gets made. This is a kind of a, a way to do that and, and what see how a historian works. Some of the methods and processes and how we come to the conclusions that we come to. And one of the favorite quotes from all of the episodes actually comes from episode one, Dan Stewart. Where he says, if you get five ancient historians in a room, you will end up with seven conclusions.
51:15 Speaker 01 Which I love. I love that. It makes it endlessly fascinating because there's, there's, I think sometimes people assume that historians have one answer to every question and
51:27 Liv Albert? Oh my god.
51:28 Speaker 01 One set account of how everything happened and why. But we don't and there's loads that we don't know and there's loads of different opinions, which means that we're never finished talking about it. That's the fun bit because we're always coming up with new perspectives, new arguments. We're never finished.
51:47 Liv Albert? That has always been my favorite part and I think that is absolutely, and especially like going back to documentaries and things like, that's the thing that gets left on the cutting room floor immediately, right?
51:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
51:57 Liv Albert? Because they're like, well, we have to fit everything into two hours. You're going to lose all of that like uncertainty and the context and I, I love the uncertainty. Like I think it's so much more interesting to understand why we don't know completely or like why we don't know every detail or all of these different things because it is like the reality and it just adds so much more. So I'm excited that. I mean, that's again, the great thing about a podcast like yours is gonna be that you can devote that time because you're not, you know, dealing with producers telling you how much time you do or do not have. Or, you know, like the this, the, I mean, it's like my show, there's never a cutting room floor, anything left on the cutting room floor because I'm like, well, if did we talk for an hour and a half? Great. You're getting an hour and a half
52:42 Liv Albert? episode because like, I don't need to cut it. Why? Like, you want to hear it? It was interesting. What? I'm gonna like, I don't want to cut anything out. No. And I think that's the fun of having a podcast and especially having one that is just conversational and a bit more casual in that way because there is no need to have everything like smoothly turned into something that, you know, could be straight out of a TV. Like, you don't need that. It's less real. This way we get the facts and the reality and the like. Yeah, it's just so much more interesting. I'm obsessed.
53:14 Speaker 01 And the great thing about it is that whenever you you get to grips with what the reality, what's closer to the reality, and you find out which little anecdotes and weird stories are true. It makes them so much better.
53:32 Speaker 01 It makes me.
53:32 Liv Albert? Yeah, yeah.
53:34 Speaker 01 Because you can, if you want to cling to the idea of myths, then yeah, okay, fine. Join all of you.
53:41 Liv Albert? Watch it.
53:43 Speaker 01 Not those, the misconceptions.
53:46 Liv Albert? Okay, okay.
53:47 Speaker 01 Misconceptions, let's say. If you want to cling to those, that's fine. And there are groups that will happily cling to them and perpetuate all of these, you know, misunderstood ideas. Fine. But I think when when you get a proper handle on the topic, and then you hear these stories that we think are true and happened as they are written, it makes them so much cooler. So much cooler. And my God, I mean, I'm not, we've got context, we've got nuance, but we've also got orgies, we've got X-rated poetry, we've got affairs, we've got assassination plots. I mean, it's all still in there.
54:27 Liv Albert? I mean, good. Leaving the exciting bits to the very end. My God.
54:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, but we've also got, you know, source analysis and historiography. What is historiography? We'll be explaining that as well. All of these things are pretty essential to the history, but aren't necessarily included in what's aimed at the general public, which I think is really rude.
54:53 Liv Albert? Yeah. Well, this is, this is what you're here for. And so,
54:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:58 Liv Albert? Yeah. That's all there is to it. So yeah, I will link to everything in the episode's description to the new show and all of that. So I hope you've all already gone there and subscribed. I, I hope that you did after the Owen Reese episode came out, but if it took you this long, that's fine, too. You can head over there right now. Ancient History 101 and, and links and such in, in the, the various places.
55:21 Speaker 01 Smooth. I like it.
55:23 Liv Albert? I'm a professional, an adult professional.
55:42 Liv Albert? Oh, nerds. Thank you as always. Again, I'm going to keep the credits short and sweet because my brain is mush and I just want this out to you all. Let's talk about Myth Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pankowicz is the harmony to my Olympians, my incredible producer. Select music is by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network and we are bringing you new and fun things like Ancient History 101 and You Are Odysseus, the new interactive audiobook, choose your own adventure vibes from the amazing mind behind Greek Myth Comics, Laura Jenkinson Brown. Find everything. Oh, I haven't updated the Memory Collective website yet, but I will release soon. And until then you can
56:25 Liv Albert? find them at the links, the various links in the various descriptions. Thank you ever so much. I am Liv and I truly do love this shit.
56:44 Speaker 02 I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Addition terms apply for all offers.
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Previous Woman, You Speak Like a Sensible Man! Aeschylus' Agamemnon (Part 1) Next RE-AIR: Euripides Has No Business Making Us Feel for Agamemnon! (Iphigenia at Aulis, Part 1) Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated