Allison Williams On: Perfectionism, Defensiveness, and the Horror Movies We All Make in Our Minds

A scream-queen (and Dan's old friend) talks control, insecurity, friendship, and parenthood. Allison Williams is an actress, producer, and singer best known for her breakout role on HBO's award winning TV series GIRLS, the blockbuster film GET OUT, the science fiction horror film M3GAN, and now its sequel, M3GAN 2.0. In this episode we talk about: Self-improvement versus self-acceptance The "friendship recession" among men Aging authentically and "caring less" Catastrophizing in parenthood How to avoid passing your anxieties onto your children The making of her latest flick, M3GAN 2.0 And much more Related Episodes: Alexander Dreymon (Star of Netflix's "The Last Kingdom") on: Therapy, Marriage, Anger, Masculinity, Meditation, and Being Nice (Even If You're a Viking) https://www.danharris.com/p/alexander-dreymon-star-of-netflixs-2ab?utm_source=publication-search Join Dan's online community here http://www.danharris.com Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Additional Resources: Listen to Allison's new podcast, Landlines https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/landlines-with-allison-williams/id1818021794. New episodes drop every Monday. To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Hey, gang. Today, I'm talking to my old friend Allison Williams, who's the star of a new hit horror movie. And we're talking about the horror movies we all make in our own minds. We also talk about perfectionism, defensiveness, child-rearing, people-pleasing, handling criticism, and much more. You may know Allison from her star turn on the hit HBO show Girls, or from her starring role in the movie Get Out, or from Megan, the horror movie, or its sequel, Megan 2.0, which just came out. Allison is very busy in movies and television, but she also has a podcast of her own. It's a new one. It's called Landlines. It just started. We'll talk about that before the end of this interview. I think you're gonna enjoy this one. Allison and I have known each other for quite a long time. We're personal friends.

• 1:04Dan Harris?

  I met her when she was just out of college. Before we dive in, though, I just want to say two things. First, last month, in June, we did this little thing where we tried producing guided meditations tailored to every Monday, Wednesday episode of this podcast. Today is a Friday episode, so there's no guided meditation to come with today's episode. But the experiment in June worked so well that we're gonna do it again this month, in July, with companion meditations coming from the great meditation teacher Dan Mauricio. This past Wednesday, we kicked things off with a bespoke meditation to go along with Brother Fop Who's episode. And we will continue offering meditations next week and all throughout the month that will pair with each Monday and Wednesday episode. If you want to get the meditations, you gotta sign up at danharris.com.

• 1:48Dan Harris?

  You can get access to all past and future meditations, so head on over there and sign up. Also, and this is the second and final thing I want to say before we get to Allison, we've got a merch sale running from July 7th through 14th. You can head on over to shop.danharris.com. If you've had your eye on our Dump It Here journal, or the 10% Happier crew neck, or that inner-piece trucker hat, good deals are coming your way. Check it out at shop.danharris.com. We'll get started with Allison Williams right after this.

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• 3:23Dan Harris?

  Allison Williams, welcome to the show.

• 3:26Speaker 04

  I'm so excited. I was just saying to these guys before you came on that I had talked a big game about basically relinquishing control and letting you drive the conversation, but we both know that.

• 3:36Speaker 04

  I love control so much. I don't know who I was describing as I was saying that to you, but...

• 3:42Dan Harris?

  It was aspirational.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  Listen, the only goal is to grow, right? Or to accept where you are. I don't fucking know. I can't keep track anymore. It's either be cool with where you are or just strive to be better every day.

• 3:53Dan Harris?

  Okay, well, you know, that's an interesting point. Are we thinking about growth? Are we thinking about accepting ourselves where we are? And my understanding is actually one allows, counterintuitively, for the other, that you can grow, kind of paradoxically, after you're cool with where you are. Does that make sense?

• 4:13Speaker 04

  100%. I found that to be so true. But I also think that sometimes there are areas where you're particularly sticky and need growth, where you have to drive the growth with a little bit of effort, where it's like starting an engine and then it kind of can run on its own, but you sometimes need the jumper cables, like an assessment from the people in your life about whether or not you have an anger problem. You know, just...

• 4:44Speaker 04

  Just out of nowhere spitballing here.

• 4:46Dan Harris?

  You referring to it?

• 4:48Speaker 04

  Uh, someone I know had a 360 evaluation and that led him on a spiritual journey towards becoming a little bit happier. And here we are.

• 4:59Dan Harris?

  If you had a 360 review, what do you think would be said about you that you would have to work on?

• 5:04Speaker 04

  So many things. One of the weird things about my wiring is that I think I'm conducting that sort of all the time. I think that's an app that's running in my system. And the conclusion regularly is like, it's not good. There's a lot of room for improvement here. And some of those things feel very within the realm of something I can work on. Like, especially the things that go to the top of the list are behaviors as a partner and as a mom, like those cut the line if there's other stuff, which is why there's still things on that list that have been on that list for a long time. Like, being able to efficiently and quickly sort through a pile on my desk of mail and just randomness. A lot of things

• 5:49Speaker 04

  would improve if I were able to get better at that, get more efficient at that. My stress level would go down, my ability to feel centered, have my workspace back. Like, so many things would get better if I was able to tackle that. But because other things cut the line, like being able to get through a transition with Arlo smoothly without it impacting me and letting him, you know, whatever it is, whatever growth opportunity I have as a mom is more important and requires more energy and space than a small organizational thing for myself. And so, yeah, I would say I'm constantly finding new places where I need

• 6:31Speaker 04

  to first understand and then grow. The understanding, I guess, is, to your point, the exercise of kind of accepting what is, but it's less accepting and more just seeing, in my case, kind of. Gaining access to insight into, I don't know. How would you answer that?

• 6:51Dan Harris?

  I have a lot to say about that, but let me just follow up quickly. Is your concern that if you move beyond seeing clearly, that it will lapse into resignation or complacency?

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Yes, but I also, I'm old enough now that I have done this before and I love what happens. Like when you find a bug in your system and you can understand it and work it out and improve it, it's intoxicating. The more esoteric, almost the more satisfying. Something really small, especially it's so much easier to talk about relationally. But if, if you're in a relationship and you find yourselves getting into the same like record grooves over and over again, when you find the secret to getting out of that and avoiding that cycle, it feels like it's been a long time, but it feels like being drugged or something, you know? It's a really good feeling and you can do that for yourself as well.

• 7:45Speaker 04

  And you realize that there's a pattern of thought or behavior that you're able to change. It's, it's really exciting and it's never as hard as you think it's going to be. As I was saying, I think the hardest part is the information gathering. Frankly, it's just being able to see is the hardest part.

• 8:01Dan Harris?

  For me, I would say it's, sometimes the information comes to me in ways that I have not gathering it. I'm bombarded with the feedback of like, you're being a prick in X or Y ways. And so it's not so much about the information gathering. It's about not letting the shame get in the way of seeing it clearly, understanding it, accepting it, and then from that place of some measure of equanimity, taking affirmative action.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's definitely true. The shame and the feeling, the urge to first mount a defense on behalf of your character is so strong. As a shorthand, I've started saying things like, I'm feeling like defending myself right now, but. Just saying it out loud often negates that whole exercise because you realize that the person you're talking to has chosen to spend their life with you. So presumably, they think you're a decent person. So you don't have to be like, for starters, I'm a good person. You know, that's always, it's a staple on reality television for a reason. It's such an urge to set the table with, here are my values. Here are the things I would and wouldn't do. I would never hurt your feelings on purpose or whatever.

• 9:09Speaker 04

  But even being a mom, you're constantly saying stuff to your kid like, even when you hurt someone by accident, it's really nice to offer an apology, even if it's not an admission that you did it on purpose. It's a kind gesture to acknowledge what someone else's experience is. And then you're like, I need to take my own advice. If I'm going to be farming that out to my kid as a life philosophy, I really need to model it as well.

• 9:34Dan Harris?

  I experienced this too, that somebody's giving me feedback. Maybe that somebody's initials are Bianca Harris. And I hear it as in a fundamental attack on my character, when in fact, all she's trying to do is ask why I was a dick at dinner last night or whatever, and I go through the roof. I've gotten a little bit better at this in the last year or two or three. But there was one concept that really helped me with this that I don't know if you're familiar with. It comes from a friend of mine who's a professor at NYU, at New York University, and her name is Dolly Chug. And her concept is, instead of thinking of yourself as a good person,

• 10:16Dan Harris?

  and therefore if somebody attacks you, like you have to defend yourself, or thinking of yourself as a bad person who just feels like a wretch all the time, if you think of yourself as good-ish.

• 10:27Speaker 04

  I like good-ish. I like that idea. It's a good principle. It's sort of like the good enough mother or parent to modernize it.

• 10:33Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 10:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I love that idea. And I also think, for me, what happens is that the moment a comment like that comes into my world, a system starts running that is so preoccupied with the fact that I've hurt someone, that it's almost, that becomes the loudest.

• 10:52Speaker 04

  Thing and my whole system is oriented towards making him not hurt anymore, which is not helpful in any way. And again, back to the things we teach our kids, like to wish someone to be feeling another emotion is like 101, something not to do. And so it's sort of like two things happen at the same time, neither of which are helpful. And as is always true, the pause, anytime you can give yourself in those moments where you try to regroup and just remember what matters and what's true is always so helpful. If I can stop myself, something I'm, I've been trying to get better at lately, but I'm not perfect at is like,

• 11:37Speaker 04

  even just saying it out loud, like I'm really distracted by the fact that you're sad about what I did. And that's really hard for me to accept because what is coming up for me is the desperate need for you to know that I didn't do it on purpose. And also that I don't want it to change the way you see me because the way you see me matters more than anything else in the world. And those two things are the loudest in my system right now, which is making it impossible for me to address the fact that I hurt your feelings, which is what this is all about. But just talking through it is already really helpful. And it's particularly rough when the behavior that's being pointed out is something that you yourself don't understand at all. And then begins the process that I was describing

• 12:22Speaker 04

  of like, yeah, what is that? Why do I do that? You're going to ask me for an example and one is not coming to mind right now.

• 12:29Dan Harris?

  Or you're unwilling to give it.

• 12:31Speaker 04

  No, I'm not. It's that I can't, it happens so frequently in so many little ways that there isn't one big example, but.

• 12:37Dan Harris?

  You didn't answer the question of what you think people would say on your 360 review.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  That's one of the things they would say is that I'm a little scatterbrained in a way that I didn't used to be.

• 12:48Dan Harris?

  Huh. Do you think that's mom brain?

• 12:50Speaker 04

  I do. And mom brain is now getting a ton of research, which is great. Often in the field of like women's brains and bodies, there's an all too often repeated thing of like, there hasn't been enough research done on this. And it's always like, yeah, obviously we don't get a lot of the research money. But, I mean, the article about postpartum or pregnancy changing certain parts of women's brains and all the research that's being done. And Bianca actually was the person who introduced me to the idea of like ADHD being diagnosed in postpartum age groups more and more frequently because it's been, there have been so many complicating factors, it has just gone undiagnosed for so long. I don't know what it is, but in the last couple of years, which yes, has coincided

• 13:32Speaker 04

  with having a kid, I just don't have access to the same clarity of thought and ability to stay on one channel or channel hop, if that's what I'm trying to do, like that versatility just feels gone. And if something comes into my mind and I don't write it down, it is likely gone forever. And that is really hard because I haven't adjusted to that, speaking of accepting things that are, I have not adjusted to that expectation of my own capacity yet. I still expect myself to function the way I did when we first met when I was 22. And so far from having a child and just all I had to think about was my own everything.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  And it's hard to run the experiment now. My life is so different, you know, once you have a kid, you just have this thing all the time that matters so much more than everything else you're doing. So it's hard to know if it's just that, or if it's literally brain changes that I'm noticing. But yes, that is really hard. And it's hard because I think I also give off a vibe, kind of loudly, that that wouldn't necessarily be the case.

• 14:41Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  And honestly, that dissonance is something I'm adjusting to and something that people in my life are adjusting to, that it used to be that you could mention something once and it was locked away and ready to be pulled out when I needed it. And I would remember it and execute on it within the day and inbox zero and all of those things. And that is just not true. And it hasn't been for a while. And so either...

• 15:06Speaker 04

  That's the new me and the new operating system and I have to make adjustments accordingly, or I have to get back to the old way and I haven't found my path back yet. So that would be, I think, the biggest finding that that system is working differently now.

• 15:24Dan Harris?

  Yes, because you, what is it that the kids say? You're giving, having your shit together as your vibe. And so therefore, when you forget something, the natural conclusion must be, well, she really doesn't give a shit about this because.

• 15:41Speaker 04

  Exactly. And that is a core fear of mine, sending anyone the idea that I don't care about them. I care maximally about everyone in my life and everything that's happening around me. I'm just like an invested, curious person and I think about my friends constantly. I reach out to them so rarely compared with the amount that I think about them as I fall asleep, as I go about my day. One of my resolutions every year, in addition to drinking water, is always to try to, when I have the thought about my friends, do the thing where I just reach for the thing that's in my hands at all times and send them the thought.

• 16:23Speaker 04

  But then maybe it's tied to just this pacing and volume of life overall. It just doesn't happen. It stays in its nascent thought stage and never blossoms into the other stages. But if something's languishing in my inbox or a text is just not being responded to for days and days at a time, it's because I care too much to do it quickly.

• 16:49Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  It's much more to do with that than genuinely not caring about it. Or in some cases, it's because it take a long time to process something. And so if someone asks me for a favor and the answer is no.

• 17:04Speaker 04

  It will take me days to figure out how to say no.

• 17:06Dan Harris?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:07Speaker 04

  Again, because hurting their feelings or disappointing someone is like my least favorite thing. I mean, who likes that? I don't know.

• 17:14Dan Harris?

  Well, I mean, I do think there's some gender dynamics at play here because this is generalization, but I'm probably way more comfortable pissing people off than you are.

• 17:24Speaker 04

  Well, but it depends on what it's about. I

• 17:29Speaker 04

  if there's something I believe like staunchly and stating that belief is going to piss some people off. It doesn't bother me at all. Disappointment is way worse to me. I don't care about. I don't know. There, there are some things that just are hard to say no to because I know it's gonna make someone feel like they're not a priority or like they don't matter and evoking that feeling in someone else. It's just rough. I mean, that's hard for me. Yeah, maybe that doesn't bother you as much. I do find that disappointment is harder to contend with than anger. It's like with your parents, you know, the idea of making them angry is such a momentary thing. But disappointment feels more like an indictment on your

• 18:14Speaker 04

  character or something. That's rough.

• 18:17Dan Harris?

  Here we go again with indictments of character.

• 18:20Speaker 04

  Did I say that already?

• 18:21Dan Harris?

  No, but I mean, that it was the theme of early in the conversation of why we get defensive in the first place.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 18:26Dan Harris?

  Because we have some doubt about our character.

• 18:29Speaker 04

  Terminally, yes, of course, always. The thing that's so fascinating about being stuck with yourself as much as there is a self. You can address that in detail for the rest of your life. I'll leave you to that question, but it's so weirdly hard to get to know and accept your, the things that make you who you are. Back to kind of what we were talking about at the beginning of the conversation. It is strange how little emphasis there is in early education.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  On understanding your, the way you operate. It's like, the fear is if we talk about it too much, you'll ruin the experiment like a badly applied Schrodinger's cat. It's very strange. I often am observing things about the way Arlo behaves, and I'm tempted to point them out to him. And then I'm like, well, I don't want to make him too self-aware. But I don't know why not, because it's really nice to know. Everything I learn about the way I live is so helpful, and it makes me hurt people less by accident, and it makes me a better member of society. And in school, when you're doing the bulk of your learning and growing for all those years,

• 19:46Speaker 04

  none of it is about like, here's the assignment. Let's figure out how you, with your wiring, is going to be best capable of achieving this. And that feels really important. Oh, you're in a group doing a group project, and you're functioning in this way, in that dynamic. Let's understand that, because life is kind of a group project. And so, the sooner you can understand why maybe you're approaching it in this way, the better your future life is going to be. Those things are kind of crucial, and we're not really encouraged until someone dumps us for some character reason to do any of that inward looking.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  The first time a teacher really encouraged me to do that explicitly was in college in my psych class. Marvin Chun, my psych professor, who's an incredible professor. I tried to delay, I think, two exams in a row because of plays that I was in. Tech Week coincided with the Tech Week of a play opening. And the first time, he said, yes, this is a giant lecture. And I, and my narcissism was like, he'll care. So I emailed him to ask if I could delay the exam. He said, yes. The second time when I wrote him, and I wish I still had this email, but I don't. They just like explode your email address, or they used to when you had like a college-supplied email.

• 21:14Speaker 04

  He said something like, the answer is no. And it's because whether or not you perform well on this psych exam is so clearly irrelevant to the rest of your life. You've chosen now.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  What matters to you the most, which is your career as an actor. And that, I believe, is what's going to continue to matter to you the most. So just do that. And if you get a C on this exam, I don't think it really matters to you very much. And I was kind of like, first of all, being told no, never easy. So that was hard. That was the first stage of it. The second stage of it was like, I am going to get a C on this exam and I don't get Cs on exams. And that's really scary. And then the third stage was like, what a lesson in allowing the choices you're making reflexively without thinking about it to inform in reverse what can be gleaned about your priorities.

• 22:12Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  From having made those choices. I will never forget that. So Marvin, if you're listening, which you're not because you're busy dealing with other students like me, thank you for that lesson because I think about it constantly.

• 22:24Dan Harris?

  That was probably more valuable than anything you learned in the class, that email exchange.

• 22:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, there were a lot of things I learned in that class that stuck with me. But to your point, the most personal one, obviously, was that one about my values and my time. But what's tricky about that is that it conflicts with what I was saying earlier about the amount of time I spend thinking about my friends and the amount of time I spend reaching out to them. And so there are contradictions to it where those are the areas where I see the potential for growth, whereas there are some situations where I'm like, oh yeah, I am just not doing that and maybe I don't care about it. And that, and that gives me insight into a value system, maybe that I wouldn't have discovered otherwise.

• 23:08Dan Harris?

  It's interesting. I mean, I don't experience you as a aloof friend, but the-

• 23:12Speaker 04

  That's a relief. You should, but I love you guys so much and I wish I could see you like default every week, just on a like weekly basis would make my life so much happier.

• 23:24Dan Harris?

  I agree.

• 23:25Speaker 04

  We could do it. That's what's so enraging.

• 23:27Dan Harris?

  You don't know this, but your husband and I are engaged in a text chain. Okay, so we are going to see each other sooner rather than later. But anyway, it's interesting. You say that this is a source of ongoing sort of guilt or cognitive dissonance for you because your new podcast really is, which is called Landlines, is built around the notion of- Friends slash community as a sort of mental health survival tactic.

• 23:52Speaker 04

  Well, so this is part of the story of my friendship. So I am doing this podcast with two friends I've had since childhood and one of them I had known since I was born because our moms grew up together. And the other one, we met when she joined our school in kindergarten. We have been friends since then and that has had many vicissitudes, obviously through life and we have lost touch through chunks of it, never completely, but just that kind of emotional intimacy where the friendships just have not, the bonds have not been as strong. And your twenties by large are like a huge challenge to any long-term friendships because everyone is shifting and growing so much and going through a lot and trying on different lives, basically.

• 24:34Speaker 04

  And so if these friendships can survive that stage, it's a pretty good sign. And when I got pregnant, I formed a chat with these girls who I've known forever about all of the questions I had about the things that I was needing, like it started out with just, I was making a registry and a list of all of the shit you need when you're having a kid, which is like, was so overwhelming to me. It was sort of how I was processing my third trimester because I shot Meghan in my second trimester and I didn't really like focus on the stuff until the third trimester, which also is the end. And it's just a very overwhelming time.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  I formed this chat and I would just like shoot questions into it. Like, what is the difference between a Duna and a Yo-Yo? And why do they, and a Nuna? And like, why do they all have the same names? And they're just like, I'm, I feel like I'm speaking gibberish at this point. And it was amazing because it was like having a language model that was tailored to people who've known me since infancy and who know my wiring and who also have their own perspectives that I can kind of.

• 25:44Speaker 04

  Predict. So I would ask a question like, should I Google this rash on my breast? And I'd send a picture of my boob to the chat to all the hackers out there. You might find mastitis pics if you hack my photos. And they could be like, don't Google it. Yes, it's mastitis. Start your antibiotics. And then I'd have the one friend who's like wary of antibiotics and wants to like, build your immune system by avoiding them. And it's like, don't take antibiotics. Use these holistic things. And like, we know I'm not wired that way, but fine. Love to you and respect. And it's just so nice to have that community. And we kept thinking about the fact that there are a lot of people out there who don't have what we had and how lucky we felt to have it.

• 26:26Speaker 04

  And one of my friends is a therapist and another one is an early childhood educator. And constantly their education and their wisdom and expertise in those two fields ended up being like of particular relevance in our chat. And so I was just like, what if we could invite other people into this dynamic? And feel like they're just a fly on the wall. And so that's where the idea of it came from. But the need for community, for a Q and A, basically with my friends, came from my pregnancy. And now it's just active because we're all still needing each other's help and wisdom. And I'm the only one now that only has one kid. So they've all started over again subsequently and are remembering what it's like to have a newborn.

• 27:11Speaker 04

  And someone was like, did any of your kids have an eight month sleep regression? And then like, like a whole text stream like fills in. And the other one was like, has anyone bought all of these travel accessories that keep getting served to me on Instagram about to a red eye with the two kids? And I want to know, like, do I need the thing that you inflate that goes under their feet? Do I need, should I sit in the bulkhead? You know? It's like all this stuff that you could Google, you could chat, ask ChatGPT, you could. But somehow like getting those answers from your friends is just the best. And I feel particularly lucky because I really feel like I lost touch with them in a big way through my twenties.

• 27:53Speaker 04

  Being able to like still turn to that resource when I needed them on my own time and they were just there and ready felt like such a gift because I hadn't been the kind of friend that in my mind like deserved that kind of loyalty at that point. I hadn't betrayed them. I had just lost them a little bit. And being able to have that unconditional friendship was like an incredibly moving realization and felt like such a gift to me in a moment where I really, really needed that kind of stability. And so, yeah, I would say that I hadn't been actively participating in those friendships for a couple of years then.

• 28:35Speaker 04

  And one of the many gifts of having our son was having that revived and having that back in my life.

• 28:44Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Allison Williams talks about the friendship recession among men aging authentically and caring less about it and more.

• 28:56Speaker 02

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• 29:16Speaker 03

  Get started at safeguardveterans.net. Click on Community Organizations. Safeguard Veterans is a 2026 pilot research program funded by the Department of Veterans Affairs.

• 29:27Speaker 05

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• 29:59Dan Harris?

  Have you followed all of the discourse around the friendship recession among men?

• 30:05Speaker 04

  Okay, I have a lot to say on this topic. The answer is yes. The thing I always think about, and I have no idea who put this idea into my head. It could have been you, honestly. The idea that women bond perpendicularly and men bond in parallel, is that an idea you're?

• 30:21Dan Harris?

  It wasn't me. I don't know.

• 30:22Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 30:23Dan Harris?

  Meaning like men bond, like both looking out a car window while they're talking because we don't want to?

• 30:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, or at a TV screen at a bar, or on a golf course next to each other in a golf cart. And women like to sit down across from each other at a table and be like, so, I want to see your eyes. And one of the things I love and admire about my husband is that he loves spending time with his guy friends in perpendicular settings, like the two of you will go out to dinner and talk and, you know, spend time together. But I think for a lot of men, that kind of emotional intimacy isn't modeled or experienced enough at a young age. And it feels like you're, I mean, not to gender it all so much or stereotype it all so much. But I feel like a lot of men would say that that feels like they're at dinner with their wife,

• 31:12Speaker 04

  having to sit across from them and talk to them about feelings and what you're going through. But I'm just devastated that they don't know what that feels like because it's one of the great gifts of the world. I feel like Alexander and his friends have saved each other's lives, like I'm not even being dramatic, multiple times by their ability to just invest in that perpendicular kind of

• 31:38Speaker 04

  talking, honesty, sharing, vulnerability, humility, but it's not the norm and it's really too bad. Yeah. What do you see in it when you think about it?

• 31:51Dan Harris?

  It seems from the data that women quite naturally maintain relationships in ways that men today and perhaps always are struggling with and that it's contributing to pretty serious declines in men's mental health.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:06Dan Harris?

  And I think we inherited a story about what strength is, frankly, from your industry, Hollywood, which depicts Lone Rangers and Marlboro Men and people bootstrapping it on the prairie. And that actually is contrary to how we evolved. Men are out there biohacking their faces off and living in paleo's lifestyle, but ignoring the most important lesson of evolution, which is community.

• 32:36Speaker 04

  Yeah. What's interesting is that going back to my college days and all the anthropology and stuff, I'm actually thinking about how unimportant real emotional intimacy would have been for men in the same way that it would have been for women. The idea of raising kids and community with other women and men competing to reproduce, that kind of wouldn't have been as important, I would think. I mean, you should actually interview a real anthropologist to talk about all of this or an evolutionary biologist. But I would think that it is actually a new skill in terms of the timeline of male brain development and hormones.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  In the timeline of human existence, I would say it probably isn't a relatively new skill, that friendship is a luxury of, it's why I have anxiety. I don't have the need for all the hormones that I would have needed evolutionarily. My life is super comfortable and I'm rarely dealing with any kind of real fight or flight requirements. And so my system just misfires occasionally and shows me other shit that I don't need. But that's a digression. We can talk about that later. But I think that the definition of what it means to be a man has changed dramatically. The role that they serve in our world has changed dramatically and that this is whatever. This is the stuff of adolescence and everything else that we're talking about as a culture

• 34:05Speaker 04

  right now. And finding that place and that purpose is vitally important because I think it's hopefully going to come. With the importance of friendship and realizing that that shouldn't be gendered and that it's not a competition, it is and it isn't, you know, like a competition. Also, I feel unqualified to talk about all of this. I'm not a man and I'm not an anthropologist. I guess what I'm saying is that I do actually understand why evolutionarily it would be harder for men because it wasn't as important for survival. But I think now it is required for survival.

• 34:44Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know how much perpendicular dinner dates were important for survival in evolutionary times, but the ability to work together to take down a mastodon or whatever was vital. So whatever you call it, men, like all members of Homo sapiens, need positive relationships. We may not have been socialized to stare into each other's eyes and disclose, but turns out we need it. We're kind of fucked without it and the borne out and the data.

• 35:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, I feel so lucky for Arlo that he has as a model in Alexander, someone who has incredibly healthy friendships that are deeply important to him. And by the way, that aren't just with men, that he has really close female friends from his whole life that are super important and maintaining those relationships and Arlo can see modeled in his dad, an example of what it looks like to have and share and process feelings with friends is so nice. And I feel like it's, he's super, super lucky and so am I. I know that it's not, not a given. It's really important that what he is seeing is not that old model of masculinity.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  He's kind of got like, not to brag, but in his dad and in my husband, he's got like this full package of a guy who presents like a kind of totally Hollywood accurate portrayal of what masculinity looks like and functions like.

• 36:12Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 36:13Speaker 04

  And also someone who has like a pretty incredible relationship to his own inner emotional life and is totally comfortable sharing that with his son and showing him what it all looks like.

• 36:27Dan Harris?

  It's funny because just say your husband Alexander has been on the show before Alexander Draymond, he was the star of a great show on Netflix called The Last Kingdom. And anyway, I'll drop a link to that in the show notes for anybody who wants to listen to it. I was worried the first time you, well, when I learned who he was and that you guys were coming over to the house, it was like, we saw you right after, like COVID was ending and you were in your third trimester and you guys were now together. And so we hadn't seen each other in a couple of years. So we were meeting for the first time, but I had seen the show years before. So I was very familiar with who he was. And I was like, I'm not gonna like this guy. He's gonna, you know, and then he turns up and he's like emo as hell.

• 37:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:06Dan Harris?

  And literally my, my clearest memory of that evening was my randomly saying to him, yeah, I like your sweatshirt. And then the next time we saw you guys, he showed up with that sweatshirt in a bag and gave it to me. And I still wear it. That's

• 37:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:22Dan Harris?

  what kind of guy he is.

• 37:24Speaker 04

  You know, from his point of view too, that's an intimidating hangout. I don't know. I mean, I think it was just immediately clear that you guys had a thing and he doesn't feel comfortable opening up like that with everybody. So it just meant that he felt safe. I guess what I'm trying to say, I think what was beautiful is that I watch him do this and show Arlo this. It requires bravery because there is a certain amount of risk involved to taking the first step towards vulnerability in a new friendship. And I think

• 38:01Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 38:01Speaker 04

  there's a great scene in Mean Girls, I think about all the time where they're looking in the mirror and pointing out things they hate about themselves. And it's sort of like the way that women bond sometimes is just by like talking shit about themselves together. And being like, can I trust you? Are you gonna join me in this exercise? And for men, I feel like the equivalent is sort of tossing out an emotional kind of statement and seeing how it goes, showing a feeling or discussing one. And if it comes back to you, then a rally has begun. Then you're like, okay, now we're in this thing and it's okay. But it takes someone to be brave at first and just take that first thing.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  And I don't remember which of you it was, but it was really so nice to see because yeah, I care about you guys a lot and I thought you would get along really well. And then it was really nice to see and your friendship has taken on a whole life that I'm not even part of, which I have feelings about, but it's fine because Bianca and I have the same thing. So I'm so hopeful that the generation of boys that we're raising are not going to have the same struggles making and maintaining friendships. I hope, I hope, I hope.

• 39:16Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I agree. A friend of mine used the term emotional imbecility, which I think is spot on for, I see myself in that. Think it's true with many men.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  I think you're selling yourself short, Dan.

• 39:28Dan Harris?

  Well, like the version of me that you, we met, I have actually a pretty clear visual of Bianca and I meeting you at a restaurant, like right on the east, on the west side highway.

• 39:37Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:37Dan Harris?

  You were 22.

• 39:39Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:40Dan Harris?

  That guy needed some help.

• 39:41Speaker 04

  Who didn't in that room? Like, I also remember.

• 39:45Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 39:46Speaker 04

  It's just, who doesn't at all times, I guess, is what I would say. But I, I didn't meet you then and think, oh, this guy needs some help. All I was thinking about was like, I want this guy to think I'm smart so badly. I want everyone in this room to think I'm smart. It's all that matters to me. It's all that mattered to me for so long was just making sure everyone thought I was smart enough. I didn't have a, and then what? It was just, that was it. That was the only mission for a long time.

• 40:15Dan Harris?

  I'm curious, what's your source of insecurity now? Like, is it being on Instagram and seeing other allegedly perfect moms and then comparing that to 75 missteps that you made over the last week or?

• 40:30Speaker 04

  That can get it sometimes. Honestly, sometimes I'll, um.

• 40:35Speaker 04

  Actually, honestly, my biggest insecurity is when people say to trust your gut. I don't often feel like my gut's being loud. And that can make me feel insecure. Anytime someone says, "Trust your gut, you got this, mama," I'm always like, "Go fuck yourself." That always enrages me, and I think it must be because it hits a nerve. For example, the decision about whether or not to have another kid is something I think about every day. And I keep waiting for my gut to have something to tell me about this. And it is still on the fence, I think.

• 41:16Speaker 04

  I'm like, okay, well, beyond that, in a world where I have a finite amount of eggs, like, can something other than my gut make this decision? And maybe someone other than me, can we hire a consultant to make this choice? Because it feels like my gut is supposed to make this choice, and it hasn't told me what its verdict is yet, and I don't have infinite time. That is something I might feel insecure about. It's just that some people seem to have guts that talk to them very loudly, and that mine doesn't always do that. So yeah, I would say that.

• 41:47Speaker 04

  The part of me that wants everyone to like me and approve of me has chilled out significantly, which is such a relief. But it's still there, it'll always be there, I think, in some way. Like, if I found out that I hurt someone's feelings or actually offended people, that would really still bother me. But I don't think that's the insecurity you're talking about. I don't know. I think as I've gotten older and I've come to terms more with who I am, it's been less scary for other people to see that. So insecurity-wise, like, if someone sees a part of my body that I don't like, that would have been my answer, truthfully, back in the day. Or like, having a pimple, a literal imperfection on your face would have been like, yikes. Obsessive, so scary. And now...

• 42:34Speaker 04

  Not as much, not zero, but very, very little now.

• 42:39Dan Harris?

  That's huge progress.

• 42:41Speaker 04

  It's huge progress. Also, like, I feel indebted slightly to Gen Z for this because it is so cool that they are, I'll use pimples as an example because we're on the subject, but like pimple stickers and stuff like that are like colorful and star shaped, whereas in our generation, like you never wanted anyone to know you had a pimple anywhere. And there's a whole like covering them up and making them not exist is like a whole thing. Whereas they adorn them. It's literally like, yeah, it's a pimple. Is this gonna say something about who I am? It's my, an oil gland on my face that's acting weird. Like, this is not a bigger story. It's just a thing on my face. And it's so nice because I, it's

• 43:26Speaker 04

  just so counter to the way, the very presentational way that we were kind of brought up, aiming for perfection, that kind of embracing of the whole human experience is so obvious and so nice in the public sphere. So I feel a little indebted to that and also just to getting older. But that doesn't mean I'm not still vain and putting botox in my face and stuff like that because I am. But I just mean that like, for example, yesterday I did a full day of press and I didn't really fully scrutinize the way I looked in the mirror throughout the day, which is shockingly different from the way I would have handled that 10 years ago or whatever. Just so different. I got backstage at a talk show and was looking

• 44:09Speaker 04

  in that last minute. There's like a mirror right before you walk on stage on almost all talk shows.

• 44:13Dan Harris?

  I'm familiar with it.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  There's like that last minute mirror. There's usually some mints that are unwieldy and impossible to keep in your mouth on a talk show. So I don't know why they're there. And then there's like a box of tissues and a bottle of water usually. And last night, yesterday, I got to this talk show and I looked in that mirror and realized that you could see through my shirt. You could see my bra and it hadn't occurred to me to look or care. And then I just was like, I may have delayed my entrance onto the show in a former life to be like, I can't really defend it. I need to be wearing a bra where you can't tell that I'm wearing a bra. It's not part of the outfit. It's not on purpose. It's not on purpose, I guess, being the biggest thing. I would have just been like, this is a nightmare. But I was like, you could see this, right? And then.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  I was like, okay. And then I just, you know, went on and that might make no sense. It's a deeply unrelatable story, obviously.

• 45:05Dan Harris?

  It's relatable to me.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Is it? Tell me.

• 45:08Dan Harris?

  Well, because I spent 30 years of my life on camera as a news anchor. And so I

• 45:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:13Dan Harris?

  obsessed about this shit in ways that are incredibly embarrassing to talk about, worrying about the retreat of my hairline or whatever. Or like anybody shooting from the back of my head and whether like, as my son likes to remind me, uh, my bald spot is visible. Um, like that type of thing was just took up so much bandwidth is incredibly painful.

• 45:35Speaker 04

  I know.

• 45:36Dan Harris?

  And to get older and to care less or to be not so attached to it is a massive relief.

• 45:41Speaker 04

  So we talked about this on the podcast a little bit and what we came to was the idea of aging authentically. So it's not like I'm embracing every single thing that my body is doing as it gets older. It's not true at all. There are some things that I'm gonna fight with all my might that bother me about my aging face and body and all of those things. And there are some things that don't matter. And I think not pretending to not care about the things that do matter is sort of where the authenticity comes in. Where it's just like, no, those things do matter. And if there's something I can do to address them, I'm gonna do it and not feel like shameful about it. Just really be like, yeah, because they bother me.

• 46:23Speaker 04

  And then also letting go of the things that don't matter and not trying anymore to hit this target of perfect is such a relief. And also perfectionism in general, because I played Marnie on Girls and was constantly asked about whether or not I was a perfectionist for many, many years. Was like an area of real sensitivity because I deeply didn't want to be a perfectionist. Because to me, drawing a distance between myself and Marnie was so correlated with whether or not people would respect me as an actor. I wanted to create space wherever I could, but I am wired to try to be perfect and to be type A. And all of those things are still true.

• 47:07Speaker 04

  It's just that I'm really not perfect or achieving at an A plus level at all times. And my comfort with that has increased so much in recent years. And especially after becoming a mom, like it's just been such a relief to that part of my system. And what a relief to on a day full of press when there's a million things going on. My value system, just staying what it is on every other day is so nice. Yesterday, I'm taking these photos on the street in my outfit with my hair and makeup team and my stylist. And I see a front end loader carrying a bundle of wood with a chain.

• 47:45Speaker 04

  And I like completely just like walked away from everyone and pulled out my phone and started filming this and narrating it for Arlo, who is like obsessed with trucks and three and a half. And that to me, it's brought me so much joy and it brought me back into my body from doing this like very weird thing of just posing for photos on a New York City sidewalk, back into the part of me that I'm way more connected to right now, which is the part of me that sees like a front end loader and it's like, I need to document this for my son. He's going to love this thing. And that is really nice that I can take that with me everywhere I go. That feels so much better and so much healthier and

• 48:25Speaker 04

  much, much less stressful to just be almost accepting of whatever version of me steps on a carpet or steps out onto a talk show, rather than the one of me that I think should be worthy of stepping out onto a carpet and onto a talk show.

• 48:42Dan Harris?

  Yeah. Yeah. Having kids, it's a Titanic pain in the ass in many, many ways, but it also is a gigantic dose, a bolus of perspective. And it can be, if you're doing it right, a great reminder about what really matters and a relief to let go, or at least turn the volume down on the shit that doesn't matter as much.

• 49:06Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Allison talks about catastrophizing in parenthood, something I relate to deeply. How to avoid passing your anxieties on to your children, the making of her latest movie, Meghan 2.0, and much more.

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• 50:29Dan Harris?

  There's one aspect of parenting that you were texting me about that I really resonate with, and I didn't see coming, which was how catastrophic thoughts can knife in in the middle of what can be sweet moments and just fucking ruin them. Can you just talk about that?

• 50:48Speaker 04

  Hundred percent. So I am, I mean, it might be obvious if you've been listening to us talk for this long, but I am a, I'm an anxious person. I am a, I have intrusive thoughts and I'm a catastrophizer. And that combination of traits have, I guess, kept me alive to this point, but have been a perfect storm on multiple occasions in parenting. And I guess the most like, kind of normal example of that is, I said to Dan, you know, we have a really steep driveway and watching my son, who's three and a half, run in like crocs down the driveway with the biggest grin on his face is a crystallization of what it feels like to live in my mind because there are two things happening simultaneously.

• 51:30Speaker 04

  My eyes are observing that he is so happy. Joy on a child's face. This is like a happy guy. My whole nervous system is like, he's about to fall. He's about to fall. He's about to fall every second because he's still moving. The eyes are seeing the joy and the system is preparing for the fall. And what a tragedy. And he doesn't always fall. He does sometimes and so far, you know, sorry, I have to knock on wood. It's a thing. So far, um, now my dog's barking because she thinks someone was at the door.

• 52:06Speaker 04

  This is something.

• 52:08Dan Harris?

  We gotta leave this in. No, it's perfect. I love it.

• 52:11Speaker 04

  Oh, my God. She's so sure.

• 52:13Dan Harris?

  Celebrities, they're just like us.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  She's blessed, Miss Moxie. She's just been dutifully protecting me against people who knock for 10 years. The first dog your son met.

• 52:24Dan Harris?

  That's true.

• 52:24Speaker 04

  Proudly.

• 52:25Dan Harris?

  That's right.

• 52:25Speaker 04

  But anyway, that is such a, a lesson to just appreciate. Just can I not just be in that moment with him when he's experiencing the joy of running down a hill? I wish I could quiet the part of me that's bracing for impact and just enjoy the joy that he's experiencing because he is cautious and thoughtful and evaluates where his body is in space pretty well sometimes, but not all the time. He's feeling it out and he's not as anxious as I am and I'm so proud of that fact.

• 53:06Speaker 04

  And I don't want to give it to him and I don't want to burden him with this way of living that has held me back in so many ways, I think, and I've had to work to overcome. And he's just happy and enjoying himself. And every time I can't stop the careful from coming out of my mouth, which does happen, I feel bad because he didn't have that idea in his head until I put it there. And sometimes I have to, obviously, if like he's about to really hurt himself. My job is to prevent that scenario from happening, but not when, you know, my system doesn't do a great job of separating the real big threats to his safety from the not real big threats to his safety.

• 53:48Speaker 04

  And Alexander, my Alexander, not your son, although he would have pointed this out too, because he's very observant and not shy about pointing things out to grownups that are areas for improvement, which is one of the things I love about your son. Very gently, early in my job as a mom.

• 54:05Speaker 04

  Alexander pointed out how often I said careful to our son. And his delivery could not have been more gentle and my reaction to it could not have been more violent. I mean, it could have been more violent. I'm being dramatic, but I had a, as we were saying at the beginning of this conversation, it was really hard for me to take that in because of how true it was. And I have always remembered it because it's like a reflex. At that time, I couldn't at all control it coming out of my mouth and I wasn't even always aware of it. But it has since been so revealing to notice how often I want to say it and to try to quiet the impulse of saying it. Do you have the same thing?

• 54:47Dan Harris?

  I completely relate to so much of what you're talking about. I do understand why you don't want to unnaturally imbue your son with too much of your anxiety. And specifically on this thing where you're in a moment with the kid and you start having these intrusive movies that are coming to your mind of, okay, I'm playing in the waves with my son, but now I can't stop the movies of a riptide. And my son, all I see is his arm or whatever under the water, like that's just, or I'm chopping something in the kitchen.

• 55:24Speaker 04

  All you had to say is chopping.

• 55:26Dan Harris?

  Yes. Somehow there's a movie with the knife and the sun and you know, it just, it's just happening all the time. And I think where I've come to it is less like bemoaning of, Dan, why are you ruining all these great moments? And more like interest in, ah, it's interesting that the mind does this and there must be some evolutionary purpose. I mean, aside from the fact that both you and I have kind of innate, probably very much inherited anxiety. There's also, I think, a thing the mind does, not only among parents, but all of us to play these movies out as a method for protection.

• 56:00Speaker 04

  Yes, but here's what's incredible is that my husband doesn't have this. He's not watching those movies and he is cautious and smart and is not like completely unaware of risks. But he doesn't have those movies playing. And it's an incredible balance because I have now spent enough time around his nervous system when I'm alone, because he's shooting right now. So I'm solo, well, with a lot of help and support, but I'm the only parent here with Arlo. And I can kind of try to channel the way he would evaluate things in his absence. And when I'm gone, I know that Alexander also is a little bit extra cautious to compensate for the fact that I'm not there. And so we're able to kind of balance each other out in that way, which is really

• 56:44Speaker 04

  nice. But those movies don't play for everybody. And that is, it's no wonder that you and I both, at one point in our lives, found it a huge relief to use substances to quiet that shit down. Like, I mean, it is exhausting. They're not, and they're always wrong. Thank God. The movies that my brain puts together are like an AI misfiring, making like weird content based on iterative like horror concepts. It's wild. And it's also, it's sometimes is helpful. And that's a huge problem. One friend who's in therapy for being a hypochondriac right when the pandemic hit, and her therapist was like, let's drop this, we'll pick this back up. Because

• 57:28Speaker 04

  you're, all your tools are helpful and they're gonna keep you alive. So forget everything I've said, use them all, and then we'll pick this back up when we've gotten a vaccine for this. But the problem is that sometimes it works, and that makes it a really hard thing to try to evict completely from my personality. And the first day, we woke up after I got out of the hospital when we had Arlo after the C-section recovery. It was a little extra long. We got through that first night. The next morning, we went outside to have a coffee. We had Arlo in a little bassinet, and we're sitting out there feeling the warm sun. It was November,

• 58:08Speaker 04

  and it was just this really nice morning. And I look over at Moxie, who was in the bushes, and I was like, I hope she's not eating out of a bait box. We had a rodent situation. I don't like to think about it because I love animals, and I hate the idea of having bait boxes around the house. But it was like compromising the structural integrity of the house. We had to have one. And it was like a concept that is the most dramatic thing she could have been doing is eating poison in the bushes. And I'm like six days postpartum and things were wild hormonally. And Alexander was like, she's not, it's fine. And called her over and she wouldn't come. And I was like, will you just humor me and go see what she's up to? And sure enough,

• 58:53Speaker 04

  that bitch was eating poison. And what happened next was fast and terrifying. She got rushed to an emergency vet. It wasn't a nerve agent, luckily. Otherwise, she would have died immediately.

• 59:07Dan Harris?

  Oh, my God.

• 59:07Speaker 04

  It was all reversible vitamin K, etc. But it was a moment where I was right. Like, the weird story I came up with in that moment was the true story. And every time that happens, it really sets me back because then I'm like, you know what? Sometimes those instincts are super helpful. And what do you do with the fact that all day they're wrong? And also, how exhausting. It's exhausting, Dan, to have these minds.

• 59:32Dan Harris?

  I hear you.

• 59:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:33Dan Harris?

  Last question. Speaking of horror movies.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:37Dan Harris?

  I haven't spoken to you since you finished Megan 2.

• 59:40Speaker 04

  Is that true? Yeah, I guess that is true.

• 59:43Dan Harris?

  And I was talking to you throughout the process, script writing. You were talking not only about starring in it, but also producing it, because you have a role behind the scenes. Our last conversations, you were really, really involved in the pre-production and the writing. And so I'm just curious, how did it come out in your view?

• 1:00:00Speaker 04

  It's so awesome. It's really, really fun. These movies are

• 1:00:05Speaker 04

  really hard to make for a bunch of reasons, but a lot of them are really technical. Like, when the star of your movie technically is a mostly animatronic doll, it's just complicated. And I'm only the star by default because I'm a human, but those tables will turn eventually. And I'll take number two on the call sheet of Megan will edge me out as number one. But they are really complicated to make and so rewarding. And I am super, super proud of the movie we've ended up with. It is really fun. And I keep thinking about like,

• 1:00:41Speaker 04

  How fun the ride is, like, I wish I could wipe my memory of my deep knowledge and familiarity with this movie and just watch it for the first time. Or maybe the more fun viewing is even the second time because it is exhilarating when it starts and when it begins, you are, you have no idea where it's going to spit you out. And that is like one of the real joys of movies, of watching movies. And also, what's really fun about this movie is that the people who loved the first one will love this movie. And we're bringing other genres into the umbrella, like action.

• 1:01:22Speaker 04

  There's, it's like a thrilling action movie with this terrifying creepy doll at the center of it. And it's just fun to be able to say, like, if you own T2 or Aliens or Robocop, like, you'll love this movie. And also, your pre-teen daughter and her friends are going to love this movie. And it's also like fun that we're releasing it during Pride because like, it feels like we're paying homage to a huge group of people who supported the movie the first time around. And there are a lot of groups of people who I think will really enjoy this movie. And that is really exciting to have made something that I think isn't for everybody

• 1:02:06Speaker 04

  and thus can be enjoyed by everybody. Like, the experience of watching a movie that is engineered to try to be a four quadrant movie is kind of exhausting. Where you're like, oh, boy, this is the section I'm supposed to relate to. And here's the section my husband is supposed to relate to. And you're kind of like, the lack of specificity means none of us are happy. And Gerard, who's the brains behind it, has such a specific sensibility and sense of humor and is so precise that It ends up being actually so enjoyable to a much more broad swath of people than it would be if it were being engineered to a very specific group of people. And I just can't wait for people to see it. Yeah, and it was like a kind of Titanic effort.

• 1:02:50Speaker 04

  It's much bigger than the first one in kind of every way. And yeah, everyone will see. I can't wait to be able to talk about it with more specificity. I hope that wasn't broad to the point of being boring, but.

• 1:03:01Dan Harris?

  No, no. Well, first of all, congratulations. Second, I'm super excited to watch it, so.

• 1:03:06Speaker 04

  Good. Well, that's, I think you'll love it. I think you'll find it, it's really funny. I think it's funnier than the first one and it's a really fun ride. Alexander has this category of movies that I've been trying to define for our entire relationship called fun movies. And you'd think that would have like a simple definition, but I've been trying and failing to define it since we met. The other day, I very nervously was like, do you think Meghan is a fun movie? And he was like, yes. I was like, I can retire. I made a fun movie. I still don't totally know what it is, but if it fits your definition of that, then I could be happy now.

• 1:03:42Dan Harris?

  Nice. Thank you for doing this.

• 1:03:45Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, we're at the end. This is it.

• 1:03:46Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Speaker 04

  Oh, I felt like there was so much, there's, oh, okay. Thank you. A simple thank you for doing this. Oh, it's immediate anxiety attack. Well, I don't want it to be over. It's been so nice to catch up with you.

• 1:04:01Dan Harris?

  I know, I know.

• 1:04:03Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for having me. I was so scared to do this show for so many years and this was so fun and not at all scary.

• 1:04:11Dan Harris?

  I know, it does feel good. I finally got you on this fucking show.

• 1:04:14Speaker 04

  Podcasts were really scary to me for a long time because they're long form. And for someone wired the way I was before, as we've discussed, that every time you open your mouth is an opportunity to fuck up. And when you're just evaluating yourself on that binary, then yeah, podcasts is really high stakes and really scary. And so I had to just grow up a little bit before I was ready, but here we are.

• 1:04:39Dan Harris?

  You did great.

• 1:04:39Speaker 04

  Thank you. Thanks for having me.

• 1:04:46Dan Harris?

  Big thanks to Allison Williams. Don't forget, this month, we're offering up guided meditations that come with every Monday and Wednesday episode. The teacher of the month for July is Dan Mauricio. Head on over to danharris.com to become a paid subscriber, and you'll get access to all past and future companion meditations. Also, if you head on over to shop.danharris.com, you can stock up on your favorite 10% happier goods during our summer merch sale, which starts Monday, July 7, and runs through the 14th. Before I let you go, I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great people over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer.

• 1:05:28Dan Harris?

  Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

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• 1:06:04Speaker 03

  Get started at safeguardveterans.net. Click on "Community Organizations." Safeguard Veterans is a 2026 pilot research program funded by the Department of Veterans Affairs.

• 1:06:16Speaker 05

  Hi, it's Delilah. I want you to know about a nine-year-old girl who often goes to bed hungry after only one meal a day. Today, you can help children through World Help, a Christian humanitarian organization. $30 will feed one starving child for an entire year. Give monthly and help save a life every month. Call 833-3HUNGER, or visit worldhelp.net/radio.